Log for #openttd on 2nd February 2017:
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00:18:48  <_dp_> markasoftware, yes, but you either need plane/train newgrf or some finicky setup
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00:33:06  <Wolf01> 'night
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01:06:22  <supermop> maybe I should make a title game entry
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08:50:56  <dihedral> good morning
09:05:23  <crem> indeed, pretty neblig though.
09:05:35  <crem> ah, confusing languages :-\
09:05:37  <crem> fohhy
09:05:41  <crem> foggy
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09:28:58  <Wolf01> o/
09:33:08  <crem> \o
09:42:33  <dihedral> hello Wolf01
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14:36:58  <supermop_> yo
14:50:43  <supermop_> orudge: is there a non PP way to donate?
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15:05:21  <Rubidium> supermop__: have you checked the donations page?
15:05:39  <supermop__> it just lists paypal links
15:07:43  <peter1138> Just below them...
15:08:01  <Wolf01> It says to contact Owen...
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15:10:29  <__ln__> are we looking at the same page?
15:10:46  <Wolf01>
15:11:10  <supermop__> hmm
15:11:12  <__ln__> preceisely that one
15:11:28  <__ln__> "Last edited by orudge on Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:05 pm"
15:12:11  <__ln__> makes me wonder if the post is still 100% relevant after 11 years
15:19:14  <dihedral> there was no Owen to update the page
15:19:35  <Wolf01> Or it's still relevant
15:20:13  <dihedral> inconcievable
15:21:12  <__ln__> €150/month for hosting a forum sounds like a lot in 2017
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15:45:46  <Wolf01> LMAO
15:46:04  <Wolf01> We used the wrong cry all the time
15:46:52  <__ln__> how do frogs from different origins understand each other
15:47:00  <Wolf01> Maybe they don't
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16:09:09  <Wolf01> o/
16:09:14  <Alberth> moin
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17:03:03  <li_the_elfin> hi all
17:03:34  <li_the_elfin> is there any admin for a sugestion ? :o
17:04:14  <Wolf01> Just say it here
17:06:06  <li_the_elfin> is it posssible to set ott available in GOG game website so people can download it from there ?
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17:06:37  <li_the_elfin> I sent a email to gog and asked them if they could contact you because I am ahuge fan of ott
17:07:00  <li_the_elfin> and they said that becauise of legal reason it was not possible
17:07:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so why do you ask, if you know the answer?
17:07:32  <li_the_elfin> gog has several old games that are for free so that they would add ott in their list would be great for the community in my opinion
17:07:50  <li_the_elfin> well legal means from your side
17:08:09  <supermop_> you can already download Openttd for free from
17:08:13  <li_the_elfin> I am sure the meaning of ott is to reach as much fans as possible
17:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but we cannot solve the legal status of the openttd license
17:08:30  <li_the_elfin> :o
17:08:33  <li_the_elfin> i see
17:08:52  <li_the_elfin> but ott is drm free I guess ?
17:09:01  <supermop_> the meaning of OpenTTD is to create the best* possible open source clone of TTD
17:09:26  <supermop_> it is licensed GPL
17:09:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, that the company who sold the original TTD, microprose, was bought off by atari, and despite several attempts, atari has not come forward whether they actually own the rights to TTD or whether they could release them to us
17:10:01  <li_the_elfin> I see
17:10:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and because the first version of openttd was created from a reverse engineered version of TTD, the openttd license is "tainted" by the original copyright of TTD.
17:10:35  <li_the_elfin> got it
17:10:53  <supermop_> so any person may distribute it, but as Eddi says, some distributors may not want to distribute a gpl game that may or may not count as fair use
17:10:54  <li_the_elfin> so if atary would release their rights it would be solved from your point of view ?
17:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the person who did this reverse engineering claims it was legal according to the law in his country
17:11:19  <Eddi|zuHause> but as long as no side goes to court, that claim cannot be verified
17:11:28  <li_the_elfin> laws are like mazes they all have a way to get trought :p
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17:11:59  <supermop_> we do not have the $$ to hire a team of intellectual property lawyers to argue or explore this
17:12:11  <li_the_elfin> i can understand that
17:12:39  <li_the_elfin> it is weird because gog has games of microprose like master of magic
17:12:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there could be the case that they have given up their rights because they did not pursue them, but again, no court, no ruling
17:12:49  <supermop_> my sister in law is an IP lawyer, but even if she and her partner worked for free for a year, all issues may not be resolved
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17:13:16  <li_the_elfin> yeah because then you have to check for each country thats a hell of a work
17:13:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and if there ever was a court case, chances are the project will just be stopped
17:13:49  <li_the_elfin> that would be sad
17:14:07  <supermop_> generally, the status quo right now, with OpenTTD having a smaller community, is that Atari and OpenTTD are both content to leave the issue alone
17:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody here would have the endurance or money to work through a court case
17:14:11  <li_the_elfin> i think rhe danger would be bigger if for example steam buy the rights and set it in court
17:15:14  <supermop_> but if OpenTTD tried to sue for right to distribute, Atari would be compelled to fight so as not to set precedent
17:15:31  <li_the_elfin> but what I have seen is that when a group chnage of owner it sometimes make things change an example lucasart since it is from disney well all their games are in gog now
17:16:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so? even if TTD was on GOG, this would not change anything wrt legality of openttd
17:16:30  <supermop_> li_the_elfin: Atari can put original TTO or TTD on GOG or Steam if they want
17:17:07  <Alberth> it's horrible if you know openttd :p
17:17:10  <supermop_> and if they decide to do so, whether or not they want to, they will have to then sue OpenTTD to protect their license
17:17:38  <li_the_elfin> gog is drm free so they would never sue anyone
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17:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> how are those two things related?
17:18:19  <supermop_> li_the_elfin: at this point it becomes less about the code/binary, and instead about the brand
17:18:21  <li_the_elfin> they are not related gog and sream they are in fact contrary
17:18:45  <supermop_> li_the_elfin: what is your favorite music/band?
17:19:42  <li_the_elfin> no typical favourit why ?
17:19:44  <supermop_> if you are a big fan, maybe you want to make a t shirt with their name on it
17:20:05  <supermop_> and maybe you make some extras to give for free to your friends
17:20:15  <li_the_elfin> lol
17:20:28  <supermop_> the band is happy to have good fans who wear t shirts
17:20:51  <supermop_> and you did not steal any of their music - so all good right?
17:21:16  <li_the_elfin> thats true
17:21:34  <supermop_> but the band also sells official t shirts at concerts, and maybe they give them away for free to the fans in the crowd
17:21:38  <li_the_elfin> informing is also a way to make aware
17:21:43  <supermop_> they want to be able to do that
17:22:22  <supermop_> but what if a big company the band hates starts to make and sell the tshirts without permission
17:23:00  <li_the_elfin> well depends what is the goal of the band
17:23:08  <supermop_> legally, because the band allowed you to make unauthorized tshirts, they set precedent (or abandoned their rights)
17:23:16  <li_the_elfin> if it is to make themselves famous they would be thankfull
17:24:03  <supermop_> so they have to sue you to enforce their ownership of their name, etc
17:24:07  <supermop_> even if they like you
17:25:42  <supermop_> if you make just a few shirts quietly, they can say no big deal, it doesn't set precedent, but if you give away 1000 they have to respond
17:25:42  <li_the_elfin> but what is the goal of ott ? is it to spread the game for free to as many fans possible ?
17:25:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a weird oddity in american brand laws, that you have to pursue every tiny violation, or lose the brand rights altogether
17:26:40  <Eddi|zuHause> li_the_elfin: no, that was never "the goal". the goal was to improve the game. spreading is just on the side
17:27:02  <li_the_elfin> I see
17:27:04  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: well there is nuance at the margins, currently Atari certainly is aware of OpenTTD but has judged it not worth legal action at this time
17:27:25  <supermop_> if the game were on steam or GOG or sold for $ they would certainly sue
17:27:30  <li_the_elfin> but if it would grow exponantially they would consider ? you think ?
17:28:01  <supermop_> at some point atari may want to sell their own improved TTD on steam
17:28:18  <li_the_elfin> yeah I also think they don't take any action because the game is for free now and it is helped by a lot of fans
17:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> li_the_elfin: they will probably reconsider if they think we measurably cut into their profits
17:28:54  <supermop_> or, because OpenTTD is free and open source, a competitor can fork OpenTTD and sell it to compete with Atari
17:28:56  <li_the_elfin> so in your opinion I should contact atary ?
17:29:40  <supermop_> li_the_elfin: in my opinion you should not contact them, as it will just make them feel uneasy about the current legal situation
17:30:20  <li_the_elfin> : /
17:30:23  <supermop_> if you say, there are 100,000 OpenTTD players, and on GOG we can reach 1 million more, they will certainly feel they need to sue
17:30:30  <Eddi|zuHause> li_the_elfin: plenty of people contacted atari
17:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> li_the_elfin: it always ends the same way, you will never hear back from them
17:31:06  <li_the_elfin> gog would reach more then 20 million users
17:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause> li_the_elfin: likely there's a corporate order to not say anything, because that would almost certainly weaken the case if they ever wanted to sue in the future
17:31:51  <li_the_elfin> so for the sake of ott now I should just beter not spoil the fun : p
17:32:03  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, yeah.
17:32:29  <supermop_> Atari probably want to look nice to gamers and developers, and the only way they can legally be nice to us is by covering their eyes and pretending they cannot see us
17:32:30  <Eddi|zuHause> just accept that there is nothing you can do to get the game on gog
17:32:52  <li_the_elfin> I will follow your advice then : ) I am thankfull for the chat and I want to thank you for the great work you did until now and the fun I had with playing ott : )
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17:33:18  <Alberth> oh, if you have a 20,000,000,000 euro lying around, you could probably buy the brand :)
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17:33:36  <Alberth> hopefully it's enough
17:33:47  <li_the_elfin> I think you can buy arari for lesser
17:34:00  <Alberth> that would work too :p
17:34:07  <li_the_elfin> lol :p
17:34:15  <supermop_> Alberth: buying atari is almost certainly cheaper than fighting them in court for the rights
17:34:28  <Alberth> although tbh I would not be surprised if they cannot provide any documentation that they own ttd
17:34:49  <li_the_elfin> thats maybe why they are so silent toward all these emails
17:34:56  <Alberth> but I don't want to find out
17:35:28  <li_the_elfin> who knows maybe it was a fan of ott who took them with him or her when he or she was fired :p
17:35:29  <Eddi|zuHause> well, they weren't silent in the beginning, we did have answers along the lines of "let me investigate this"
17:35:39  <supermop_> but then once you own atari you cannot give away OpenTTD for free without putting your employees at risk
17:35:40  <Eddi|zuHause> just that was the last thing we ever heard from them
17:36:06  <Alberth> so they are still searching :p
17:36:26  <Rubidium> a port of OpenTTD is on Google Play Store (or whatever its name is now) with a mere 1-5 million downloads. I'd reckon gog being smaller, so... why haven't they sued yet?
17:36:27  <supermop_> Atari is more that just 1 person, it is shareholders, programmers, lawyers, marketers, probably most don't care about the TTD brand at all, but they dont want to set a precedent that would affect other brands
17:37:30  <supermop_> Rubidium: google play has the veneer of just distributing the apps of independent developers? i thought GOG actually had some kind of licensing agreement
17:38:37  <li_the_elfin> they have some rules but they mean not much lol the eula rules lol
17:39:08  <supermop_> if you go to today it is almost entirely publicity for roller coaster tycoon, which is for sale
17:39:49  <li_the_elfin> well rollercoatser is in gog lol
17:39:53  <supermop_> i am sure giving up the rights to OpenTTD would make it harder for them to protect their ownership of RCT
17:40:24  <Alberth> hmm, didn't CS buy the tycoon rights for his mobile game?
17:41:19  <supermop_> for locomotion and the TT name i think
17:42:34  <li_the_elfin> but is locomotion not the official folow up of ttd
17:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but the inofficial one
17:42:53  <Alberth> no, it's branded as TT
17:42:55  <li_the_elfin> altought it looks more as rollercoaster
17:43:07  <supermop_> legally a locomotion port is now transport tycoon on mobile
17:43:11  <Alberth> even though it uses lomo graphics
17:43:38  <supermop_> CS owned locomotion but not the TT brand
17:43:44  <Eddi|zuHause> there's very certainly a code evolution path from TTD to locomotion (via RCT)
17:43:50  <supermop_> in 2013 he bought the TT name
17:44:10  <supermop_> and re released updated locomotion with the TT name
17:44:51  <Alberth> afaik he never sold the lomo name, as selling the TT name was a mistake
17:45:03  <supermop_> Alberth: yeah
17:45:03  <Wolf01> <li_the_elfin> well rollercoatser is in gog lol <- but it's Atari which put that in it, like Disney with Star Wars
17:45:39  <Wolf01> *LucasArts games
17:46:05  <supermop_> CS would likely have to sue Atari if Atari gave the TTD rights to OpenTTD for free
17:46:49  <li_the_elfin> it is recentely they have put them in gog I think about 4 months
17:47:36  <Wolf01> What if they'll put TTDlx on GoG?
17:47:51  <li_the_elfin> lol
17:48:31  <Wolf01> They *should* have the rights to do it, more than OTTD to be on GoG
17:48:38  <li_the_elfin> i think thats a forbidden question
17:49:01  <li_the_elfin> well ott is beter then ttd much biger maps
17:49:23  <li_the_elfin> most great fans of ttf are here
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17:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: but can they actually put TTD on GOG if they sold the TT name?
17:49:52  <li_the_elfin> maybe under another name
17:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, changing that name inside the game code probably costs more than they will ever earn on GOG
17:50:23  <Wolf01> I bet they don't even have the code to make the change
17:51:19  <li_the_elfin> i have an original copy of tt and ttd if they need lol I provided them a copy of my original lords of the realm gold edition and they used it
17:51:25  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: they may have just licensed the name, or sold it for mobile
17:52:09  <Wolf01> li_the_elfin, it's not the compiled copy they need, but the source code
17:52:17  <li_the_elfin> well the cd version I mean not the disk version lol
17:52:28  <Wolf01> I have the cd version too
17:52:40  <li_the_elfin> i think gog use the compiled version in dos box mode
17:52:41  <supermop_> i only had tto
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17:52:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i had TTO and the world editor expansion
17:53:04  <li_the_elfin> and you have 2 versions the windows and dos version lol
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17:53:59  <li_the_elfin> the original in cd is not easy to find
17:54:06  <li_the_elfin> i mean ott
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17:55:54  <li_the_elfin> ok see you all : )
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17:57:04  <Milek7_> atari still exists?
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18:01:39  <Wolf01> Kwaak
18:03:42  <frosch123> hoi
18:06:21  <frosch123> Wolf01: i have never seen "kwaak", it's "quak"
18:08:38  <Wolf01> Apparently we have used the wrong cry all the time ->
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18:09:52  <Alberth> german kwaak comes close :)
18:10:29  <Wolf01> BTW, pizza
18:10:33  <Alberth> \o/
18:10:37  <Alberth> enjoy :)
18:15:28  <__ln__> 19:11 < Eddi|zuHause> the person who did this reverse engineering claims it was legal according to the law in his country  <--- while ludde may have believed so, and even if reverse engineering per se is legal, it certainly isn't legal to create a 1:1 clone of something especially when utilizing the reverse engineered code.
18:21:34  <frosch123> Wolf01: judging from google results i would claim that "kwaak" is dutch
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18:22:09  <frosch123> though i would give albert's judgement a precedence there :p
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18:34:13  <Alberth> indeed, it looks very Dutch :)
18:34:36  <Alberth> but Dutch and German are quite close
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19:08:57  <andythenorth> o/
19:09:33  <andythenorth> interesting that the bouy/dock idea derailed into ‘airport lights plz'
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19:10:55  <supermop_> you're welcome
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19:40:09  <supermop_> is sam on bananas yet andy?
19:41:22  <andythenorth> nope
19:41:27  <andythenorth> it’s really very sketchy
19:41:34  <andythenorth> no ship has all 8 angles drawn yet
19:41:49  <andythenorth> it’s on bundles server, and the gameplay works
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19:55:17  <Wolf01> holy fuck G2A is really like the windows firewall
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19:56:55  <Wolf01> TL;DR 1) you add the key (marked as active), anyone can buy it, 2) then it gets "verified" (marked as verified) or rejected, nobody can buy it, 3) you add the same key again -> again active and sellable
19:58:33  <Wolf01> o/ andy
19:59:42  <Wolf01> <frosch123> Wolf01: judging from google results i would claim that "kwaak" is dutch; <Alberth> but Dutch and German are quite close <- let's use quak as we always did :P
20:03:24  <__ln__> what's G2A?
20:03:48  <Wolf01> Some scam site which resell most pirate keys for steam
20:03:56  <Wolf01> Like Kinguin, G2play etc
20:04:43  <__ln__> ok
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20:06:42  <Wolf01> They could be good sites, for examples I have loads of keys for games I purchased in bundles, which I already have and that I would like to sell, but I won't use those scam sites for any reason
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20:27:43  <__ln__> didn't even know steam games can be resold
20:28:26  <Wolf01> If you have the keys...
20:28:37  <Wolf01> Not redeemed ones
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20:29:02  <Wolf01> I would like more if steam allows to add games you already own to be gifted
20:29:20  <supermop_>
20:29:28  <supermop_> never heard of this until today
20:30:06  <Wolf01> I've seen a documentary where they investigated about the problem
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20:43:52  <__ln__> i only heard of this yesterday:
20:46:13  <supermop_> i don't need to watch any more 747 crash footgae
20:46:17  <supermop_> footage
20:46:34  <supermop_> have already seen all i ever care to watch
20:47:47  <V453000> is there any way how to save palette image in python?
20:47:56  <V453000> or is the only way photoshop?
20:48:05  <supermop_> python guy just left
20:48:54  <V453000> saw
20:48:59  <frosch123> <- read the docs
20:49:14  <V453000> was trying to but didn't find this :) thanks frosch123
20:49:19  <frosch123> "This module was never well-documented. It hasn’t changed since 2001, though, so it’s probably safe for you to read the source code and puzzle out the internals if you need to." :)
20:50:01  <V453000> sounds like exactly what I am going to do
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21:03:03  <Alberth> there was a problem in getting the palette iirc
21:03:49  <V453000> I'm not super relying on it atm
21:04:18  <V453000> would just be nice
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21:21:45  <Alberth>   3rd entry "Getting the Palette Contents Using Resize/Convert"  <-- V453000
21:22:29  <V453000> =D thanks, will definitely try later
21:22:34  <Alberth> although I can't find the phrase "getpalette is broken" anymore, perhaps it was fixed?
21:22:52  <V453000> XD
21:23:01  <Alberth> would be nice to check if  img.getpalette()  gives the same result
21:24:21  <Alberth> hmm, there is a warning about putpalette, maybe that was it
21:25:28  <Alberth> much more likely I had that problem instead :)
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22:10:13  <V453000> all your base are belong to us :D I'm able to read the colours now, and calculate their distance from the palette colours
22:10:29  <V453000> next step actually input correct palette values and it can start converting :>
22:17:55  <__ln__> are all the remaining german fighter jets from the early 1940s currently in the US?
22:26:44  <supermop_> im sure some are elsewhere
22:26:53  <supermop_> not sure any are for sale
22:27:04  <supermop_> mig 21 is a better value for money
22:30:20  <supermop_> plenty of those here in US
22:31:25  <__ln__> i've seen them flying, finnish air force used to have migs (too) until mid-90s
22:35:01  <__ln__> are there many fully functioning mig 21s in US?
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23:47:36  <Wolf01> 'night
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