Log for #openttd on 15th February 2017:
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00:23:15  <Wolf01> 'night
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11:46:34  <Wolf01> o/
11:47:42  <crem> \o
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12:11:10  <Wolf01> lol V
12:11:48  <Wolf01> Story of your cousins XD
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12:15:18  <__ln__> to confuse things more, the name of the Slovak language in Slovak is 'slovenský jazyk'
12:15:31  <Wolf01> Ahahah
12:23:13  <crem>
12:25:04  <Alkel_U3> I was just about to post that :-)
12:28:55  <crem> I know what's the most irritating for belarusians! It's when belarus is called byelorussia (white russia) rathen than Belarus. :)  Russia called Belarus properly in 1990s, and recently (last 10 years) started to call Byelorussia again.
12:31:15  <Wolf01> I shit on pasta with ketchup
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12:31:53  <Wolf01> Ha! Not a single american in US!
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14:37:40  <supermop_> yo
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16:01:24  <Alberth> hi hi
16:04:53  <Wolf01> o/
16:05:27  <crem> \o
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16:21:35  <Wolf01> Quak
16:22:00  <frosch123> moi
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17:09:03  <andythenorth> o/
17:23:33  <Alberth> o/
17:24:43  <andythenorth> Alberth: for industry creation during game, did you try anything like ‘just build 1 new industry per year’?
17:24:58  <andythenorth> i.e. increasing beyond the quota
17:30:16  <Alberth> in openttd source code?
17:30:36  <andythenorth> yes
17:30:50  <Alberth> iirc it's smaller, 5 / decade, except a more weird number than 5
17:31:20  <andythenorth> most of my games are 20-30 years, with no closures
17:31:20  <Alberth> it can be smaller, if industries die a lot, it stop adding new industries
17:31:32  <andythenorth> and very very rarely do I see an industry added to the map
17:32:00  <andythenorth> one route would be to fix it in GS
17:32:06  <andythenorth> but I don’t think that’s quite right
17:32:25  <Alberth> what do you want to fix?
17:32:52  <Alberth> 350t iron ore / month  :o   so much
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17:34:29  <Alberth> (380, 400) -> (115, 280)  that's pretty much half the map, at 88km/h :p
17:41:31  <Alberth> andythenorth: line 2095 industry_cmd.cpp
17:41:31  <Alberth> static const int NEWINDS_PER_MONTH = 0x38000 / (10 * 12); // lower 16 bits is a float fraction, 3.5 industries per decade, divided by 10 * 12 months.
17:41:40  <Alberth> per 256x256
17:43:04  <Wolf01> Bah... I'm using to build an airport with a friend... that software has too many bugs and inconsistencies that make it a pain to use :(
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17:51:48  <andythenorth> 3.5 eh
17:51:56  <andythenorth> that chimes with my experience
17:52:09  <andythenorth> I usually play 256x256 or so
17:52:19  * andythenorth probably has very different game to ‘most people’ :)
17:55:43  <andythenorth> what was the ‘half the map’ thing? o_O
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18:15:07  <Alberth> andythenorth:
18:15:34  <Alberth> 350 t/month iron ore, in 1905, IH
18:15:42  <andythenorth> big goals
18:15:48  * andythenorth has a smaller map :P
18:15:56  <Alberth> you made the mine :p
18:16:08  <andythenorth> yeah, I needed more iron ore
18:16:14  <Alberth> :D
18:16:16  <andythenorth> is that the default (1x) production?
18:16:20  <Alberth> yes
18:16:36  <andythenorth> that’s the upper end of the range
18:16:43  <andythenorth> 160t is more common :)
18:18:00  <Alberth>
18:18:25  <Alberth> hmm, the other two are 90 and 135 t/m
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18:18:55  <andythenorth> the random range might be too wide
18:18:56  <andythenorth> not sure
18:19:05  <Alberth> I didn't check the amounts, but by the time I was finished adding trains, all trains of the first one had already left :)
18:19:30  <Alberth> oh, it's fun :)
18:19:41  <Alberth> filled tracks with long trains
18:19:59  <andythenorth> it would not be a good choice with IH Antelope
18:20:05  <andythenorth> which has small capacity, long wagons :P
18:20:09  <andythenorth> very very long trains :P
18:20:42  <Alberth> the track to the far left does something similar, although production is more sane
18:20:58  <Alberth> I don't have Antelope, is that a new engine?
18:21:09  <Alberth> or a newer version perhaps
18:21:30  <Alberth> IH 1.9.1
18:21:46  <andythenorth> it’s not in the released versions
18:21:50  <andythenorth> very WIP
18:22:01  <andythenorth> so many unfinished things :)
18:22:12  <Alberth> big bertha is quite useless, nice horsepower but not fast enough at this distance
18:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't big bertha a cannon?
18:22:43  <Alberth> no, it's an engine
18:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause>
18:24:29  <andythenorth> it’s also a cannon
18:24:45  <andythenorth> ‘also’ due to
18:25:39  <andythenorth> I am going to rebalance IH, I am playing a test version right now
18:25:49  <andythenorth> freight trains are seriously too fast :)
18:35:44  <supermop_> i very quickly seem to go from 6 tile freight is too long, to not nearly big enough
18:36:02  <supermop_> but line capacity won't allow much bigger than 7 or 8
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18:38:01  <andythenorth> I have same
18:38:11  <andythenorth> start with TL6, then 8, 10 or 12
18:38:16  <andythenorth> and more platforms
18:38:21  <andythenorth> network is overwhelmed fast
18:39:58  <supermop_> nice looking junctions have trouble handling the stream of 8TL freights coming through every 10 days
18:39:59  <andythenorth> I should make an IH roster with 40, 70, 100t wagons
18:40:09  <andythenorth> at max 8/8 lengths :P
18:40:14  <supermop_> hampers mixed use lines a bit
18:40:39  * andythenorth doesn’t even have any :P
18:40:55  <andythenorth> I have started a new SV, and have built the main spine route with canals instead
18:41:05  <andythenorth> which is weird and lame, but I’ll never get gold otherwise
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18:42:24  <supermop_> i still keep trying to run passengers and freight on the same double tack as long as i can
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18:43:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that always results in me only focusing on passengers and neglecting freight
18:44:25  <supermop_> need night time
18:46:35  <supermop_> andy, this code you gave me, i can just adapt into a regular nml file, right?
18:46:54  <supermop_> i don't necessarily need to do any python magic to it
18:51:14  <supermop_> hmm what to call the harbor roadways?
18:51:36  <supermop_> cobble road or roadway sounds like a regular road or street
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18:52:33  <supermop_> does 'driveway' make sense?
18:55:06  <Alberth> andy: I wouldn't know if freight trains are too fast, it's all I do :)
19:02:47  <andythenorth> it causes balancing issues
19:03:05  <andythenorth> if the basic idea is that there are fast pax engines and slower more powerful freight engines....
19:03:17  <andythenorth> when they are too similar, it introduces a boring choice
19:03:29  <andythenorth> I am attempting to be the enemy of boring choices :)
19:04:14  <andythenorth> supermop: you’ll need a grf header block, but that RH code is vanilla nml yes, no python in it
19:04:35  <andythenorth> I copied it from the nml example grf for NRT :)
19:22:59  <andythenorth> hmm
19:23:09  <andythenorth> when would ottd _ideally_ build new industries?
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19:29:16  <Alberth> when you need them
19:29:32  <andythenorth> that heuristic is hard to manage :)
19:29:59  <Alberth> depends, you can check what industries you play with, and where
19:30:21  <Alberth> you can check how you connect industries
19:30:42  <Alberth> there should be a lot of information in what you do in the game, I think
19:30:59  <Alberth> but I agree it's not trivial to find information
19:31:14  <supermop_> 'yard' instead of 'roadway'?
19:31:31  <Alberth> another point is of course, if you connect only coal mines, should the game supply you with even more?
19:31:50  <Alberth> ie how is that balanced wrt newgrf author wishes?
19:32:13  <Alberth> for me, a yard is a weird unit of length, or a garden :p
19:32:33  <andythenorth> heuristics are hard :)
19:32:47  <andythenorth> maybe you didn’t connect any coal mines because they’re all in the wrong place
19:32:51  <supermop_> Alberth: what if trucks are driving around on your garden?
19:32:53  <andythenorth> so maybe you really want a coal mine
19:33:26  <Alberth> could be, in theory you can analyze that too
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19:33:39  <Alberth> along with speed of trains, the terrain etc etc
19:34:10  <Alberth> supermop_: I'd like to see them do that, as I have no such thing :)
19:35:53  <Alberth> but you're asking about USA names and we have very little clue about meaning of USA names, mostly
19:36:37  <Alberth> andy, but if you specify some sort of preferences, it could work from that
19:37:23  <supermop_> any sort of name at all.
19:37:54  <supermop_> like what to call the big paved part of a port where trucks and forklifts drive around
19:38:20  <andythenorth> Alberth: although I am -1 to settings generally, seems like control over industry construction (and maybe closure) might be an openttd thing
19:38:27  <andythenorth> it’s not a case that newgrf can solve
19:38:36  <supermop_> 'paved road' sounds like a road
19:38:53  <supermop_> 'pavement' sounds like, not a road
19:38:54  <andythenorth> it’s a very highly specific thing for GS to solve, and a distortion of GS as a goals framework
19:39:05  <supermop_> so user might not understand
19:39:38  <andythenorth> Close industries: “never” | “random chance if unserviced for x years”
19:40:22  <andythenorth> Open industries: “never” | “random chance every x years (favour highly served types)” | “random chance every x years (favour under-served types)"
19:40:24  <andythenorth> dunno
19:54:49  <Alberth> I agree newgrf can't solve it, it doesn't have enough knowledge, or coding it is too complicated
19:55:03  <Alberth> so openttd or a GS would be better
19:55:27  <Alberth> I also believe openttd is in a much better position to request closure
19:55:43  <Alberth> but euhm, somebody blocked that in the newgrf spec :p
19:56:02  <Alberth> until we make an extension on the extension, or something
19:57:20  <Alberth> I don't think people have much trouble with opening, that is, until you open too many, I guess
19:57:34  <Alberth> but people do not like closing
19:57:50  <Alberth> likely they don't serve the industry well enough
19:58:35  <Alberth> I had the problem a few times that I was setting up a connection, and it died on me, yep it happens, generally not a big deal, unless it's very early in the game
19:58:36  <andythenorth> a newgrf major version bump would be a reason to remove closure control from newgrf :P
19:58:48  <andythenorth> newgrf doesn’t need to forbid closure
19:59:04  <andythenorth> oh, eh, there are people who want to force closure in newgrf though :(
19:59:17  <Alberth> afaik, newgrf has the final word
19:59:24  <andythenorth> it does
19:59:28  <andythenorth> addon specs are a minefield
19:59:32  <andythenorth> ‘here be dragons'
19:59:35  <andythenorth> never write an API :P
19:59:54  <Alberth> some people think you can solve global problems in a local way, and get a good result :(
20:00:33  <Alberth> or they are afraid players may play in a different way than they do, or so
20:00:34  <andythenorth> ‘forbid closure’ would have looked like a logical option for the cb at the time it was written
20:00:45  <andythenorth> it’s hard to design a future proof API :)
20:00:55  <Alberth> yes, don't try it
20:01:28  <Alberth> instead make it possible to remove the api when it has fulfilled its evolutionary role
20:02:35  <andythenorth> does a version bump do that?
20:02:43  <Alberth> hmm, can't we add a lower/upper version to each api, just like the data saved in a savegame has a lower and upper version number where it is valid
20:02:44  <andythenorth> old grfs carry on working as expected :P
20:03:08  <andythenorth> it add conditional jank in openttd though eh?
20:03:18  <andythenorth> if grfversion > 8 (stuff) or so :)
20:03:26  <Alberth> hmm, rewrite old newgrf to new standard :p
20:03:35  <Alberth> yeah, it explodes somewhat
20:03:47  <Alberth> but game version conversion does that too
20:04:20  <supermop_> what if i try to drive a trolleybus on ROAD+ELRL?
20:04:41  <andythenorth> no dice
20:04:44  <supermop_> it isn't specifically ELRD
20:04:55  <andythenorth> what compatibility have you set?
20:05:10  <andythenorth> if ELRL is a tramtype label, it’s literally ignored for the road vehicle and vice versa
20:05:15  <supermop_> i guess thats realistic bc trolleybus need two trolleywires
20:05:43  <andythenorth> realism or not, connecting the labels for the two route types together is a fast trolleyride to madness :)
20:06:00  <supermop_> setting electric road types to be powered on each other but not electric tram types
20:06:03  <Alberth> ha, pig iron has different colour in different wagons, I see
20:06:25  <supermop_> Alberth: gets rusty faster in some wagons?
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20:07:07  <Alberth> only if rusty pig iron is more white-ish :)
20:07:11  <andythenorth> that might be an accident :)
20:07:28  <andythenorth> I haven’t really supported it yet
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20:08:48  <Alberth>
20:09:05  <Alberth> oh, it's fine, just unexpected
20:09:22  <andythenorth> default (fallback) cargo sprites
20:09:27  <andythenorth> boxes + tarpaulins
20:09:27  <Alberth> variation in shape and colour is always nice
20:10:03  <Alberth> 1.9.1 is also pre steeltown, probably
20:10:16  <Alberth> no wonder it doesn't know about it :)
20:10:43  <andythenorth> yup
20:14:04  * andythenorth builds canals such
20:16:35  <Alberth> 225m, that's long :)
20:16:58  <Alberth> works at a smaller map
20:20:56  <andythenorth> ach, these square cornered canals :)
20:21:00  <andythenorth> ugly
20:22:09  <Alberth> didn't planet maker have better canal sprites?
20:22:20  <Alberth> or were they river sprites perhaps?
20:23:09  <Alberth> but indeed, we're quite stuck with the grid world
20:27:49  <Alberth> bleh, train moving uphill @ 2km/h :(
20:28:08  <Wolf01> Add more engines :P
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20:33:20  <andythenorth> there is opengfx water features
20:33:24  <andythenorth> better canals, worse rivers :)
20:35:11  <Alberth> I know it needs more engines
20:35:31  <Alberth> more powerful horses wouldbe simpler :p
20:36:58  <Alberth> but at least it explains why my cargo isn't being moved :)
20:37:35  <andythenorth> what do you have for freight weight multiplier setting? o_O
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20:37:55  <Alberth> apparently, andy has heavy goods, unlike default goods :)
20:38:16  <Alberth> 6
20:38:35  <andythenorth> ha
20:38:45  <andythenorth> that used to be a recommended default with NARS and such
20:38:57  <andythenorth> I have 1 :)
20:39:10  <andythenorth> I should put that in the docs :P
20:39:14  <Alberth> ah, 6x as long trains :p
20:39:50  <Alberth> "author plays with freight multiplier 1, you must do the same"  :)
20:41:00  <Alberth> oh, 4-4-2 is reliable now, could use that one instead
20:41:03  <andythenorth> “author tests with 1” :P
20:41:14  <Alberth> :)
20:41:24  <andythenorth> tbh, the TE and HP are already about twice reality
20:41:44  <andythenorth> the 6 setting was the advice for American train sets where people want 5 or 6 engines on a train
20:42:00  <Alberth> hmm, less TE, not good
20:42:33  <Alberth> yeah, 6 is just sort of random
20:42:35  <andythenorth> what year are you in?
20:42:46  <Alberth> no special purpose of ideas behind it
20:42:54  <Alberth> 1909
20:43:25  <andythenorth> there should be an Aberdare, 2 of those are usually quite good
20:43:27  <Alberth> 2-6-0 exists too, but only 85%
20:43:47  <andythenorth> does reliability increase if you run more instances of the train?
20:44:15  * andythenorth can’t remember
20:44:24  <Alberth> no, but it goes up in time, and then down again
20:44:38  <andythenorth> I projected a non-existent cause
20:44:39  <andythenorth> :P
20:44:40  <Alberth> at first it was around 64%, which is horrible
20:44:45  <andythenorth> been years since I had breakdowns on
20:46:24  <Alberth> it's faster and slightly more powerful, a bit of reliability reduction likely won't be that bad
20:50:00  <Alberth> slag transport is a mess, can't keep up with the new iron ore production raise :)
21:00:39  <andythenorth> nope
21:00:56  <andythenorth> it’s over-produced, the ratio is 50:50
21:01:02  <andythenorth> should be more like 75:25
21:01:08  <andythenorth> needs new FIRS code
21:02:39  <Alberth> oh, any amount is good, just needs more trains :p
21:02:55  <Alberth> and a more dedicated line for it
21:05:03  <andythenorth> ships :)
21:09:23  <Alberth> nah, less fun :)
21:09:42  <Alberth> I like restructuring railway tracks to smoothen traffic
21:10:14  <andythenorth> maybe I should stop using SV for a bit
21:10:24  <andythenorth> it creates focus on ‘win’ :)
21:10:53  <Alberth> big ore mines, and over-production of slag is good, it causes chaos in the network that needs to be fixed
21:11:34  <Alberth> default industries are a bit better at that, as their production rises :p
21:13:52  <supermop_> sprites start at the top left, right?
21:14:02  <andythenorth> yes
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21:20:10  <andythenorth> am I the only irritated by train lengths that are not x.0?
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21:23:36  * andythenorth ponders making all wagons 4/8 and 8/8
21:24:41  <supermop_> wait - its the x,y of the first pixel in the sprite, or how many pixels it is from the origin?
21:25:14  <supermop_> like if there is 10px whitespace from the edges, it would be 11,11 right?
21:25:21  <supermop_> andythenorth: yes a little
21:25:47  <supermop_> non integer trains look better but are annoying
21:26:09  <andythenorth> supermop_: zero-indexd, so 10,10 if it’s 10px whitespace
21:26:11  <andythenorth> also bed
21:26:19  <supermop_> ok
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21:26:22  <supermop_> later
21:33:25  <Alberth> nn
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23:00:31  <supermop_> why are there junction underlays templated for in bridge surfaces?
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23:14:19  <Wolf01> <supermop_> why are there junction underlays templated for in bridge surfaces? <- who knows?
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23:17:00  <supermop_> im going to ignore for now
23:19:05  <supermop_> hmm i need to figure out a better way that repeating this huge set of templating each time for each pavement type
23:19:33  <supermop_> like, redo all that previous stuff but for y.png instead of x.png
23:20:21  <supermop_> or, maybe i can put all the sprite related stuff into a separate nml file for each one? idk how that stuff works
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23:35:05  <Wolf01> Maybe andy could help you, he used some templating and recolouring script for unsinkable sam
23:37:43  <supermop_> possibly, but i think he's busy enough without lending charity to my ill-conceived projects
23:38:01  <supermop_> ok going home
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23:56:28  <supermop> now I'm home

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