Log for #openttd on 12th April 2017:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:35:17  *** smoke_fumus has quit IRC
00:36:37  *** Samu has quit IRC
00:44:23  *** JezK has joined #openttd
01:53:00  *** Biolunar has quit IRC
02:07:49  *** Thomas has joined #openttd
02:21:29  *** glx has quit IRC
02:45:40  <quiznilo> oooo roro depots!
03:15:49  *** Thomas has left #openttd
03:17:56  *** proventricular has joined #openttd
03:17:58  *** museless has joined #openttd
03:22:24  *** museless has left #openttd
04:44:41  *** proventricular has quit IRC
04:50:18  *** pawnbrokering has joined #openttd
04:50:31  *** Endeavour has joined #openttd
04:50:41  *** pawnbrokering has quit IRC
05:02:07  *** Endeavour has quit IRC
05:02:22  *** Maarten has quit IRC
05:02:45  *** sider has joined #openttd
05:03:59  *** Maarten has joined #openttd
05:56:33  *** chomwitt1 has joined #openttd
06:07:59  *** jinks has quit IRC
06:08:14  *** jinks has joined #openttd
06:17:14  *** Ethereal_Whisper has quit IRC
06:33:03  *** Non-ICE has quit IRC
06:33:13  *** Non-ICE has joined #openttd
07:09:22  *** efess has quit IRC
07:20:01  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
07:20:40  <Wolf01> Miao
07:30:25  <Arveen2> Mrow
07:38:14  *** Sova has joined #openttd
07:40:57  *** supermop has quit IRC
07:54:24  *** JezK has quit IRC
08:07:34  *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
08:08:54  *** FLHerne has quit IRC
08:09:45  <dihedral> good morning
08:10:00  <crem> I second that.
08:26:43  *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd
08:28:57  *** silentcontrib has joined #openttd
08:39:27  <Wolf01> "If we would bundle tram set X with the program by default, we'd disturb that competition." Like Internet Explorer XD
09:02:26  *** efess has joined #openttd
09:10:25  *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
09:10:30  <Arveen2> bundle ottd with that browser choice application
09:11:47  <__ln__> did you mean: tram choice application
09:12:32  <Wolf01> We should remove all vehicles too, IIRC you can already decide which baseset to use when you install the game, it shouldn't be hard to have a selection of the most valid sets to start playing
09:13:04  <Wolf01> Curated by andy XD
09:14:22  <Wolf01> I think Albert and Eddi are right, we need a sort of steam workshop in bananas with the ability to upvote the content, maybe an usage counter too
09:15:17  <Wolf01> I could even give a hand
09:16:03  <crem> But don't one have to make sure that add-ons are compatible?
09:16:18  <Wolf01> That's why we need curators too
09:18:19  <Arveen2> usage counter is nice. i love stats
09:19:29  <Wolf01> The download count doesn't really count... I have stuff downloaded only because I tried one savegame once
09:20:46  <Wolf01> We have the grfs list used by servers, it could be a good way to check what are the most used ones
09:22:59  <Arveen2> data mining :D
09:23:33  <Wolf01> Yeah, my scenario is the 6th most downloaded... I should update the link to point to a forum topic as I don't have anymore the website
09:30:43  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
09:31:28  <Wolf01> Cat
09:31:39  <Arveen2> Catdog
09:31:56  <andythenorth> workdog
09:31:58  <andythenorth> bbl
09:31:58  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
09:32:07  <peter1138> hi bye
09:33:39  *** Deactivated has joined #openttd
10:15:05  *** Sova has quit IRC
10:23:39  *** JezK has joined #openttd
10:54:07  *** Sova has joined #openttd
11:20:05  *** Samu has joined #openttd
11:22:06  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
11:35:30  *** silentcontrib has quit IRC
11:40:37  *** JezK has quit IRC
12:14:09  *** Tenu has joined #openttd
12:24:52  *** Speedy has quit IRC
12:59:16  *** sider has quit IRC
12:59:56  *** Norm has joined #openttd
13:01:05  *** Deactivated has quit IRC
13:14:54  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
13:18:00  *** Biolunar has quit IRC
13:23:40  *** efess has quit IRC
13:28:49  *** supermop has joined #openttd
13:29:31  *** tokai has joined #openttd
13:29:31  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
13:36:30  *** tokai|noir has quit IRC
13:43:31  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
13:43:33  <andythenorth> o/
13:44:54  <peter1138> yes
13:46:32  <andythenorth> thought so
13:56:22  *** sim-al2 has quit IRC
13:57:35  *** Flygon has quit IRC
13:58:34  <supermop> yo
13:58:40  *** Alberth has joined #openttd
13:58:40  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
13:59:02  <Alberth> o/
13:59:09  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
14:01:57  <andythenorth> ach, FIRS Extreme
14:02:00  <andythenorth> is a mess
14:02:17  <andythenorth> look at the chart :P
14:03:25  <Wolf01> o/
14:04:12  <Alberth> hi hi
14:04:23  <Alberth> looks messy indeed, what's the problem?
14:04:40  *** Gja has joined #openttd
14:05:21  <ST2> should be called FIRS Spaghetti, instead of Extreme - but looks good for me :)
14:06:46  <Alberth> ha, nice name, I was thinking "FIRS Everything", but Spaghetti is nicer
14:07:03  <Wolf01> Try to untangle it, if you manage to do it then it's a valid map
14:07:14  <andythenorth> specifically the role of Chemicals and Manufacturing Supplies are…blah
14:07:21  <andythenorth> they’re under-supplied and tedious
14:07:23  <Alberth> nah, just let BB tell you what to do
14:07:24  *** Flygon has joined #openttd
14:07:43  * andythenorth considers starting with a clean white sheet of paper
14:07:44  <Alberth> you're not trying to make it playable are you?
14:07:55  <andythenorth> I’m wondering if it could have been done better :P
14:08:05  <andythenorth> why ‘fibre crops’ but not ‘salt’?
14:08:11  <andythenorth> why ‘wool’, but not ‘vehicles’?
14:08:27  <Alberth> hysteric raisons
14:08:33  <andythenorth> yes
14:08:44  <andythenorth> also, somewhat, industries I wanted to draw
14:09:04  <andythenorth> Sugar Beet is definitely only there because I wanted to draw the beet factory
14:09:07  <ST2> dnt change it - currently BTPro has 2 servers using FIRS Extreme and it's funny to see the "brain knots" on new players ^^
14:09:07  <Alberth> fair enough :)
14:09:39  <andythenorth> this is a classic ‘swallowed a spider’ problem
14:09:54  <andythenorth> I want to adjust the fertiliser plant to have a second input
14:10:05  <andythenorth> salt maybe
14:10:06  <andythenorth> but then everything else makes no sense
14:10:14  <Alberth> it didn't already :p
14:11:05  <andythenorth> salt is one of the world’s major cargos
14:11:10  <andythenorth> historically, and still now
14:11:23  <andythenorth> also it would be white, which is different to other colours
14:11:29  <Alberth> just add it, or is there no room?
14:11:40  <andythenorth> there’s room
14:11:53  <andythenorth> salt mine -> salt?
14:12:04  <Alberth> seems simple-ish
14:12:22  <andythenorth> salt -> fertiliser plant -> fmsp and ensp (explosives)
14:12:25  <Alberth> doesn't it get harvested from evaporating salt water as well?
14:12:29  <andythenorth> yes
14:12:33  <andythenorth> salt works -> salt?
14:12:54  <andythenorth>
14:13:02  <Alberth> either will work, but it may be nicely different graphically
14:13:12  <andythenorth> salt -> chemical plant -> chemicals?
14:13:20  <Wolf01> Also to food
14:13:27  <andythenorth> salt -> chemical plant -> manufacturing supplies?
14:13:33  <andythenorth> dunno
14:13:53  <Alberth> latter looks more feasible
14:14:22  <andythenorth> bundling all chemicals together in Extreme was probably a mistake :)
14:14:25  <Wolf01> I should do an economy by myself too
14:14:35  <andythenorth> Wolf01: try and make a giant Extreme 2 :P
14:14:46  <andythenorth> I’m not sure what the goal of it is really
14:15:04  <Alberth> there is none, just dumping al together
14:15:22  <Alberth> if you're lucky, there are transport options
14:15:35  <Wolf01> [colour] powder->[colour] cubes->mixed products, mixed byproducts->consumer products
14:16:14  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I do even consider that to some extent now :P
14:16:18  <andythenorth> when making new economies
14:16:32  <andythenorth> pipe is in steeltown just for cargo sprites
14:16:43  <andythenorth> sulphur was quite appealing to add too, because bright yellow
14:16:56  <supermop> andythenorth: pre 1600 or so you could have an economy where the only industrial scale cargo to be transported is "salt -> towns"
14:17:03  <andythenorth> I know :P
14:17:12  <andythenorth> I have considered a pre-industrial economy
14:17:18  <andythenorth> but tbh, someone else could fork FIRS to do that
14:17:24  <andythenorth> FIRS forks are now pretty proven
14:17:26  <supermop> salt, maybe salt cod
14:17:26  <Wolf01> I would like to do something like big pharma
14:17:39  <Alberth> or make an early economy
14:17:47  <Wolf01> But game doesn't support that :(
14:17:47  <andythenorth> supermop: I considered adding saltfish stuff for scandinavia
14:18:00  <supermop> Wolf01: fine chemicals are neat, but the pills might be a bit boring to transport
14:18:14  <Wolf01> One by one
14:18:23  <Alberth> yeti size
14:18:27  <Wolf01> To package factory
14:18:32  <Alberth> in all colours
14:18:39  <Wolf01> Yep
14:19:15  <supermop> Alberth: i guess the problem is when you get to 2100 and are bored of still running the same salt, fish, and wood in your little haneseatic league
14:19:44  <andythenorth> coal tar -> paracetamol -> towns
14:19:57  <Alberth> you do?  I usually start in 1920-1930, and don't even make 2000, generally
14:20:22  <Alberth> at some point, most industries are connected, and it's done for me
14:20:22  <Wolf01> Me too... I usually get bored way before 2000
14:20:34  <supermop> that will really give the various english translators some work, andythenorth
14:20:46  <Wolf01> But I start in 1850 with horses and FF to ~1900
14:20:47  <Alberth> it would need a GS to stirr things up, I guess
14:20:55  <andythenorth> new GS :P
14:20:59  <supermop> aus calls it something else entirely from you or me
14:21:11  <supermop> Alberth: i rarely play more than 30 years
14:21:36  <Alberth> have a bigger map :p
14:21:48  <Alberth> or more dense industries :p
14:22:02  <supermop> but i guess the most salient property of 'pre-industrial' economies is that they are pre-industrial
14:22:13  <andythenorth> one would think so :P
14:22:22  <supermop> that is, fundamentally different, cargoes etc
14:22:33  <andythenorth> hmm
14:22:55  <andythenorth> ach, I should just finish what I have and do a FIRS 3 :)
14:23:00  <andythenorth> the rest can wait until v4 or so
14:23:24  <supermop> which suggests that it might be interesting to play through that paradigm shift, which occurred in different ways and times in different areas
14:24:27  <Alberth> but you need industries that really do close
14:24:35  <Alberth> even if you serve them
14:24:43  <andythenorth> @calc 5488 - 5052
14:24:43  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 436
14:24:49  <andythenorth> lots of revs since last FIRS release
14:25:16  <supermop> "i send salt on barges to a ship, and the ship brings back cloth' to 'i send specialized electronics by air and receive metal alloys by electric train'
14:25:55  <andythenorth> to do it well, needs more than 32 cargos imho
14:26:04  <supermop> could make for more interesting game than "i send iron ore by slow train' to 'i send more iron ore by a faster train'
14:26:04  <andythenorth> with ability to deprecate / introduce cargos
14:27:28  <supermop> as is now whether you play 20 or 1000 years, you basically do A->B, with capacity growing every decade until new vehicles run out
14:28:30  <supermop> maybe you could do a->b for 50 years but then suddenly you are trying to do C<-D and X->Y->Z by totally new means
14:28:49  <Alberth> increasing transport is simple upgrading
14:29:13  <Alberth> openttd supports that out of the box
14:29:18  <supermop> Alberth: yeah
14:29:38  <supermop> changing what you need to transport over time is what would be new
14:29:45  <Alberth> yes
14:30:06  <Alberth> or change location of resources
14:30:23  <Alberth> like the oil in temperate
14:31:06  <andythenorth> GS :P
14:31:11  <andythenorth> newgrf is no good at it
14:31:46  <Alberth> it can be done, it fully controls closing and opening new industries
14:33:03  <Alberth> ie suppose you run one economy for 50 years, then switch off the probabilities, and turn on probabilities of industries of another economy
14:33:33  <Alberth> it also needs closing down of "old" industries, but that could be coded in NewGRF too, I think
14:34:22  <andythenorth> newgrf can do it
14:34:41  <andythenorth> it’s just not able to provide any messages, or make any nice judgements about the state of the map
14:35:22  <Alberth> yep, it's very disruptive :)
14:35:58  <peter1138> probably meant to be game-script type stuff?
14:36:54  <Alberth> until you can tell industries what to do, it doesn't quite work
14:37:15  <peter1138> sure
14:37:23  <peter1138> i've never looked into what GS is capable of
14:38:20  <Alberth> newgrf has no access point for giving information about such things to industries
14:39:21  <supermop> i guess you also need something like mines running out
14:39:30  <Alberth> it's still NewGRF decides all, except it's generally clueless due to lack of information, and it also has no means to obtain that global information
14:39:48  <supermop> otherwise if you build a salt mine empire in 1000 CE most of the mines will never close
14:40:22  <supermop> unless gs somehow makes salt no longer profitable to transport at a certain time
14:40:31  <supermop> which doesn't really make sense
14:40:47  <Alberth> that's another point, gs can't control prices of transport
14:40:54  <supermop> salt still earns money, just not enough to fight wars over
14:41:25  <supermop> thats another problem with early transport
14:42:05  <supermop> if it is some how profitable to carry passengers from town to town in a horse carriage in 1500, it will still be profitable in 2500
14:42:14  <supermop> no market forces
14:42:21  <Alberth> I did think of setting transport prices based on source/destinations, and perhaps players
14:42:39  <Alberth> not so much based on type of cargo and year, but it could make sense
14:42:57  <supermop> some smarter type of inflation could work
14:42:59  <supermop> ?
14:43:31  <supermop> separate running costs into two parts, one could grow with inflation, the other is static?
14:43:35  <Alberth> making it scriptable has a much larger use
14:44:12  <andythenorth> supply / demand economy
14:44:13  <supermop> so the steam locomotive is 'cheaper' to run when the wages for the three men in the cab are low
14:44:17  <andythenorth> one town pays more than another
14:44:49  <Alberth> ie everything you do in the program is mostly global for the world, which means gameplay is the same everywhere on the map
14:46:40  <Alberth> that makes it eg feasible to play at 4096x4096, and use only 256x256 of that
14:47:04  <Alberth> and it doesn't matter where that 256x256 is
14:48:30  <Alberth> maybe the script should also be allowed to control the running cost factor or so
14:48:35  <Alberth> based on company
14:49:09  <Alberth> and probably engine, although then it becomes newgrf specific very quickly
14:49:19  <Wolf01> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
14:52:27  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
14:55:05  *** chomwitt2 has joined #openttd
14:57:47  *** Gja has quit IRC
14:59:21  *** Sova has quit IRC
15:01:33  *** chomwitt1 has quit IRC
15:01:33  *** chomwitt3 has joined #openttd
15:05:53  <peter1138> Alberth, maybe that isn't a problem though
15:07:54  <supermop> i guess i envision spilting running cost into parts, A, B, maybe C, and then each vehicle is defined as having a certain amount of each
15:08:00  *** chomwitt2 has quit IRC
15:08:28  <supermop> then game or GS or newgrf could globally say, increase part A by 2% per year
15:08:43  <supermop> or decrease part B by 1%
15:09:01  <supermop> or randomly fluctuate
15:09:55  <supermop> maybe an old locomotive has 1000 units of A and 20 of B
15:10:08  *** Gja has joined #openttd
15:10:33  <supermop> but in 1860, A=1 and b=50
15:11:01  <supermop> maybe in 1960, A=10 and b=60
15:11:11  <supermop> idk
15:12:32  <supermop> a boring newgrf GS would keep all parts static, or increase them uniformly, and an exotic one would vary them by odd amounts for obscure reasons
15:13:49  <supermop> basically trying to solve the (maybe not real problem) of a horse and wagon is much cheaper to run than a truck in 1900, but is much more expensive to run than a truck in 2000
15:14:37  <supermop> same with sailboats vs steamships, or steam locomotives vs diesels
15:15:18  <supermop> or a diesel bus vs a super-capacitor bus
15:18:14  *** efess has joined #openttd
15:19:04  *** chomwitt4 has joined #openttd
15:19:47  <Wolf01> A/B/C => Fuel cost/spare parts/maintainance guys
15:20:18  <Wolf01> Maybe fees too XD
15:20:49  <supermop> Wolf01: i was thinking you'd do Mechanical/labor
15:20:57  <supermop> with fuel as C
15:21:52  <supermop> fuel probably goes slowly down over time (diesel would be pretty expensive in 0CE) while labor goes up
15:22:12  <supermop> mechanical could be static, or go slowly down or up
15:23:33  <supermop> maybe in 1940 the Diesel has more mechanical cost, similar fuel cost, and less labor costs than the steam locomotive
15:24:40  <supermop> but over the next 20 years, labor get proportionally more expensive, so even if the steam loco is mechanically simpler than the diesel, it cost more because it takes more people to run it
15:25:30  *** chomwitt3 has quit IRC
15:25:30  *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
15:25:56  *** chomwitt4 has quit IRC
15:30:29  <supermop> you don't really even need to name the parts though
15:30:43  <supermop> or even separate them
15:33:57  *** chomwitt1 has joined #openttd
15:40:25  *** chomwitt has quit IRC
15:54:50  *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
15:54:55  <Wolf01> Quak
15:55:06  <frosch123> hoin
15:59:55  *** TheMask96 has quit IRC
16:03:17  *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
16:23:13  *** Progman has joined #openttd
16:33:24  *** Non-ICE has quit IRC
16:46:26  *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
16:58:23  *** glx has joined #openttd
16:58:24  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
17:10:36  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
17:24:49  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
17:36:19  *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27854 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt spanish.txt) (2017-04-12 19:45:37 +0200 )
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> spanish: 30 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
17:45:49  <DorpsGek> czech: 18 changes by djst
17:57:40  *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
18:06:35  <quiznilo> 'compatible addons'
18:06:38  *** Gja has quit IRC
18:06:44  <quiznilo> perhaps some kind of dependency system
18:07:37  <quiznilo> with blockers
18:18:26  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
18:40:39  <andythenorth> o/
18:40:53  <Alberth> o/
18:42:24  <supermop> yo
19:11:58  *** bwn has quit IRC
19:23:22  *** supermop_home has quit IRC
19:27:47  *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC
19:30:23  *** bwn has joined #openttd
19:37:32  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
19:42:25  *** FLHerne has quit IRC
19:42:32  *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
19:48:13  <andythenorth> is quiet
19:48:30  *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
19:50:12  *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC
19:53:28  <Alberth> nn
19:54:27  *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
19:55:32  *** Alberth has left #openttd
19:55:57  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
19:57:22  <Wolf01> High on ginger ale again wooooo!!!
20:01:52  *** Extrems has quit IRC
20:11:22  *** Extrems has joined #openttd
20:21:25  *** minisylf has quit IRC
20:25:16  *** Sylf has joined #openttd
20:44:45  *** Sylf has quit IRC
20:47:28  <supermop> Wolf01: how do you manage that
20:47:56  <Wolf01> Who? What?
20:50:20  <supermop> ginger ale
20:51:12  <Wolf01> I like it
20:53:31  <supermop> me too
20:55:07  <supermop> nice when i am queezy
20:55:19  <supermop> queasy?
20:56:34  <Wolf01> The nice thing is that I don't even like ginger, but I always eat it when I find it in various forms
20:56:46  <andythenorth> also bed
20:56:49  <Wolf01> nn
20:56:50  <andythenorth> bye
20:56:51  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
20:58:29  <supermop> we have candied ginger
20:58:43  <Wolf01> Yeah, I have a packet of that too
21:05:15  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
21:07:24  *** gelignite has quit IRC
21:31:05  <peter1138> evening
21:33:18  <Wolf01> o/
21:38:31  *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
21:45:20  *** Long_yanG has joined #openttd
21:48:37  *** LongyanG has quit IRC
21:57:52  *** Progman has quit IRC
22:23:49  *** smoke_fumus has quit IRC
22:24:48  <Wolf01> 'night
22:24:51  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
22:37:30  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
22:39:28  <quiznilo> ginger in very small amounts in some foods is very, very good
22:39:36  <quiznilo> lots of people use way too much of it
22:39:54  <quiznilo> I'm like ginger ale though, and love ginger candies and cookies
22:49:22  *** FLHerne has quit IRC
22:50:33  *** DDR has joined #openttd
23:00:56  *** supermop_home has quit IRC
23:40:40  *** Biolunar has quit IRC
23:52:35  *** Extrems has quit IRC
23:53:00  *** Extrems has joined #openttd
23:53:08  *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
23:58:08  *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk