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00:35:17 *** smoke_fumus has quit IRC 00:36:37 *** Samu has quit IRC 00:44:23 *** JezK has joined #openttd 01:53:00 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 02:07:49 *** Thomas has joined #openttd 02:21:29 *** glx has quit IRC 02:45:40 <quiznilo> oooo roro depots! 03:15:49 *** Thomas has left #openttd 03:17:56 *** proventricular has joined #openttd 03:17:58 *** museless has joined #openttd 03:22:24 *** museless has left #openttd 04:44:41 *** proventricular has quit IRC 04:50:18 *** pawnbrokering has joined #openttd 04:50:31 *** Endeavour has joined #openttd 04:50:41 *** pawnbrokering has quit IRC 05:02:07 *** Endeavour has quit IRC 05:02:22 *** Maarten has quit IRC 05:02:45 *** sider has joined #openttd 05:03:59 *** Maarten has joined #openttd 05:56:33 *** chomwitt1 has joined #openttd 06:07:59 *** jinks has quit IRC 06:08:14 *** jinks has joined #openttd 06:17:14 *** Ethereal_Whisper has quit IRC 06:33:03 *** Non-ICE has quit IRC 06:33:13 *** Non-ICE has joined #openttd 07:09:22 *** efess has quit IRC 07:20:01 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 07:20:40 <Wolf01> Miao 07:30:25 <Arveen2> Mrow 07:38:14 *** Sova has joined #openttd 07:40:57 *** supermop has quit IRC 07:54:24 *** JezK has quit IRC 08:07:34 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 08:08:54 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 08:09:45 <dihedral> good morning 08:10:00 <crem> I second that. 08:26:43 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd 08:28:57 *** silentcontrib has joined #openttd 08:39:27 <Wolf01> "If we would bundle tram set X with the program by default, we'd disturb that competition." Like Internet Explorer XD 09:02:26 *** efess has joined #openttd 09:10:25 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 09:10:30 <Arveen2> bundle ottd with that browser choice application 09:11:47 <__ln__> did you mean: tram choice application 09:12:32 <Wolf01> We should remove all vehicles too, IIRC you can already decide which baseset to use when you install the game, it shouldn't be hard to have a selection of the most valid sets to start playing 09:13:04 <Wolf01> Curated by andy XD 09:14:22 <Wolf01> I think Albert and Eddi are right, we need a sort of steam workshop in bananas with the ability to upvote the content, maybe an usage counter too 09:15:17 <Wolf01> I could even give a hand 09:16:03 <crem> But don't one have to make sure that add-ons are compatible? 09:16:18 <Wolf01> That's why we need curators too 09:18:19 <Arveen2> usage counter is nice. i love stats 09:19:29 <Wolf01> The download count doesn't really count... I have stuff downloaded only because I tried one savegame once 09:20:46 <Wolf01> We have the grfs list used by servers, it could be a good way to check what are the most used ones 09:22:59 <Arveen2> data mining :D 09:23:33 <Wolf01> Yeah, my scenario is the 6th most downloaded... I should update the link to point to a forum topic as I don't have anymore the website 09:30:43 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:31:28 <Wolf01> Cat 09:31:39 <Arveen2> Catdog 09:31:56 <andythenorth> workdog 09:31:58 <andythenorth> bbl 09:31:58 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 09:32:07 <peter1138> hi bye 09:33:39 *** Deactivated has joined #openttd 10:15:05 *** Sova has quit IRC 10:23:39 *** JezK has joined #openttd 10:54:07 *** Sova has joined #openttd 11:20:05 *** Samu has joined #openttd 11:22:06 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 11:35:30 *** silentcontrib has quit IRC 11:40:37 *** JezK has quit IRC 12:14:09 *** Tenu has joined #openttd 12:24:52 *** Speedy has quit IRC 12:59:16 *** sider has quit IRC 12:59:56 *** Norm has joined #openttd 13:01:05 *** Deactivated has quit IRC 13:14:54 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 13:18:00 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 13:23:40 *** efess has quit IRC 13:28:49 *** supermop has joined #openttd 13:29:31 *** tokai has joined #openttd 13:29:31 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 13:36:30 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 13:43:31 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 13:43:33 <andythenorth> o/ 13:44:54 <peter1138> yes 13:46:32 <andythenorth> thought so 13:56:22 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 13:57:35 *** Flygon has quit IRC 13:58:34 <supermop> yo 13:58:40 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 13:58:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 13:59:02 <Alberth> o/ 13:59:09 <andythenorth> hi Alberth 14:01:57 <andythenorth> ach, FIRS Extreme 14:02:00 <andythenorth> is a mess 14:02:17 <andythenorth> look at the chart :P http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme 14:03:25 <Wolf01> o/ 14:04:12 <Alberth> hi hi 14:04:23 <Alberth> looks messy indeed, what's the problem? 14:04:40 *** Gja has joined #openttd 14:05:21 <ST2> should be called FIRS Spaghetti, instead of Extreme - but looks good for me :) 14:06:46 <Alberth> ha, nice name, I was thinking "FIRS Everything", but Spaghetti is nicer 14:07:03 <Wolf01> Try to untangle it, if you manage to do it then it's a valid map 14:07:14 <andythenorth> specifically the role of Chemicals and Manufacturing Supplies are…blah 14:07:21 <andythenorth> they’re under-supplied and tedious 14:07:23 <Alberth> nah, just let BB tell you what to do 14:07:24 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 14:07:43 * andythenorth considers starting with a clean white sheet of paper 14:07:44 <Alberth> you're not trying to make it playable are you? 14:07:55 <andythenorth> I’m wondering if it could have been done better :P 14:08:05 <andythenorth> why ‘fibre crops’ but not ‘salt’? 14:08:11 <andythenorth> why ‘wool’, but not ‘vehicles’? 14:08:27 <Alberth> hysteric raisons 14:08:33 <andythenorth> yes 14:08:44 <andythenorth> also, somewhat, industries I wanted to draw 14:09:04 <andythenorth> Sugar Beet is definitely only there because I wanted to draw the beet factory 14:09:07 <ST2> dnt change it - currently BTPro has 2 servers using FIRS Extreme and it's funny to see the "brain knots" on new players ^^ 14:09:07 <Alberth> fair enough :) 14:09:39 <andythenorth> this is a classic ‘swallowed a spider’ problem 14:09:54 <andythenorth> I want to adjust the fertiliser plant to have a second input 14:10:05 <andythenorth> salt maybe 14:10:06 <andythenorth> but then everything else makes no sense 14:10:14 <Alberth> it didn't already :p 14:11:05 <andythenorth> salt is one of the world’s major cargos 14:11:10 <andythenorth> historically, and still now 14:11:23 <andythenorth> also it would be white, which is different to other colours 14:11:29 <Alberth> just add it, or is there no room? 14:11:40 <andythenorth> there’s room 14:11:53 <andythenorth> salt mine -> salt? 14:12:04 <Alberth> seems simple-ish 14:12:22 <andythenorth> salt -> fertiliser plant -> fmsp and ensp (explosives) 14:12:25 <Alberth> doesn't it get harvested from evaporating salt water as well? 14:12:29 <andythenorth> yes 14:12:33 <andythenorth> salt works -> salt? 14:12:54 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Salt_Works 14:13:02 <Alberth> either will work, but it may be nicely different graphically 14:13:12 <andythenorth> salt -> chemical plant -> chemicals? 14:13:20 <Wolf01> Also to food 14:13:27 <andythenorth> salt -> chemical plant -> manufacturing supplies? 14:13:33 <andythenorth> dunno 14:13:53 <Alberth> latter looks more feasible 14:14:22 <andythenorth> bundling all chemicals together in Extreme was probably a mistake :) 14:14:25 <Wolf01> I should do an economy by myself too 14:14:35 <andythenorth> Wolf01: try and make a giant Extreme 2 :P 14:14:46 <andythenorth> I’m not sure what the goal of it is really 14:15:04 <Alberth> there is none, just dumping al together 14:15:22 <Alberth> if you're lucky, there are transport options 14:15:35 <Wolf01> [colour] powder->[colour] cubes->mixed products, mixed byproducts->consumer products 14:16:14 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I do even consider that to some extent now :P 14:16:18 <andythenorth> when making new economies 14:16:32 <andythenorth> pipe is in steeltown just for cargo sprites 14:16:43 <andythenorth> sulphur was quite appealing to add too, because bright yellow 14:16:56 <supermop> andythenorth: pre 1600 or so you could have an economy where the only industrial scale cargo to be transported is "salt -> towns" 14:17:03 <andythenorth> I know :P 14:17:12 <andythenorth> I have considered a pre-industrial economy 14:17:18 <andythenorth> but tbh, someone else could fork FIRS to do that 14:17:24 <andythenorth> FIRS forks are now pretty proven 14:17:26 <supermop> salt, maybe salt cod 14:17:26 <Wolf01> I would like to do something like big pharma 14:17:39 <Alberth> or make an early economy 14:17:47 <Wolf01> But game doesn't support that :( 14:17:47 <andythenorth> supermop: I considered adding saltfish stuff for scandinavia 14:18:00 <supermop> Wolf01: fine chemicals are neat, but the pills might be a bit boring to transport 14:18:14 <Wolf01> One by one 14:18:23 <Alberth> yeti size 14:18:27 <Wolf01> To package factory 14:18:32 <Alberth> in all colours 14:18:39 <Wolf01> Yep 14:19:15 <supermop> Alberth: i guess the problem is when you get to 2100 and are bored of still running the same salt, fish, and wood in your little haneseatic league 14:19:44 <andythenorth> coal tar -> paracetamol -> towns 14:19:57 <Alberth> you do? I usually start in 1920-1930, and don't even make 2000, generally 14:20:22 <Alberth> at some point, most industries are connected, and it's done for me 14:20:22 <Wolf01> Me too... I usually get bored way before 2000 14:20:34 <supermop> that will really give the various english translators some work, andythenorth 14:20:46 <Wolf01> But I start in 1850 with horses and FF to ~1900 14:20:47 <Alberth> it would need a GS to stirr things up, I guess 14:20:55 <andythenorth> new GS :P 14:20:59 <supermop> aus calls it something else entirely from you or me 14:21:11 <supermop> Alberth: i rarely play more than 30 years 14:21:36 <Alberth> have a bigger map :p 14:21:48 <Alberth> or more dense industries :p 14:22:02 <supermop> but i guess the most salient property of 'pre-industrial' economies is that they are pre-industrial 14:22:13 <andythenorth> one would think so :P 14:22:22 <supermop> that is, fundamentally different, cargoes etc 14:22:33 <andythenorth> hmm 14:22:55 <andythenorth> ach, I should just finish what I have and do a FIRS 3 :) 14:23:00 <andythenorth> the rest can wait until v4 or so 14:23:24 <supermop> which suggests that it might be interesting to play through that paradigm shift, which occurred in different ways and times in different areas 14:24:27 <Alberth> but you need industries that really do close 14:24:35 <Alberth> even if you serve them 14:24:43 <andythenorth> @calc 5488 - 5052 14:24:43 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 436 14:24:49 <andythenorth> lots of revs since last FIRS release 14:25:16 <supermop> "i send salt on barges to a ship, and the ship brings back cloth' to 'i send specialized electronics by air and receive metal alloys by electric train' 14:25:55 <andythenorth> to do it well, needs more than 32 cargos imho 14:26:04 <supermop> could make for more interesting game than "i send iron ore by slow train' to 'i send more iron ore by a faster train' 14:26:04 <andythenorth> with ability to deprecate / introduce cargos 14:27:28 <supermop> as is now whether you play 20 or 1000 years, you basically do A->B, with capacity growing every decade until new vehicles run out 14:28:30 <supermop> maybe you could do a->b for 50 years but then suddenly you are trying to do C<-D and X->Y->Z by totally new means 14:28:49 <Alberth> increasing transport is simple upgrading 14:29:13 <Alberth> openttd supports that out of the box 14:29:18 <supermop> Alberth: yeah 14:29:38 <supermop> changing what you need to transport over time is what would be new 14:29:45 <Alberth> yes 14:30:06 <Alberth> or change location of resources 14:30:23 <Alberth> like the oil in temperate 14:31:06 <andythenorth> GS :P 14:31:11 <andythenorth> newgrf is no good at it 14:31:46 <Alberth> it can be done, it fully controls closing and opening new industries 14:33:03 <Alberth> ie suppose you run one economy for 50 years, then switch off the probabilities, and turn on probabilities of industries of another economy 14:33:33 <Alberth> it also needs closing down of "old" industries, but that could be coded in NewGRF too, I think 14:34:22 <andythenorth> newgrf can do it 14:34:41 <andythenorth> it’s just not able to provide any messages, or make any nice judgements about the state of the map 14:35:22 <Alberth> yep, it's very disruptive :) 14:35:58 <peter1138> probably meant to be game-script type stuff? 14:36:54 <Alberth> until you can tell industries what to do, it doesn't quite work 14:37:15 <peter1138> sure 14:37:23 <peter1138> i've never looked into what GS is capable of 14:38:20 <Alberth> newgrf has no access point for giving information about such things to industries 14:39:21 <supermop> i guess you also need something like mines running out 14:39:30 <Alberth> it's still NewGRF decides all, except it's generally clueless due to lack of information, and it also has no means to obtain that global information 14:39:48 <supermop> otherwise if you build a salt mine empire in 1000 CE most of the mines will never close 14:40:22 <supermop> unless gs somehow makes salt no longer profitable to transport at a certain time 14:40:31 <supermop> which doesn't really make sense 14:40:47 <Alberth> that's another point, gs can't control prices of transport 14:40:54 <supermop> salt still earns money, just not enough to fight wars over 14:41:25 <supermop> thats another problem with early transport 14:42:05 <supermop> if it is some how profitable to carry passengers from town to town in a horse carriage in 1500, it will still be profitable in 2500 14:42:14 <supermop> no market forces 14:42:21 <Alberth> I did think of setting transport prices based on source/destinations, and perhaps players 14:42:39 <Alberth> not so much based on type of cargo and year, but it could make sense 14:42:57 <supermop> some smarter type of inflation could work 14:42:59 <supermop> ? 14:43:31 <supermop> separate running costs into two parts, one could grow with inflation, the other is static? 14:43:35 <Alberth> making it scriptable has a much larger use 14:44:12 <andythenorth> supply / demand economy 14:44:13 <supermop> so the steam locomotive is 'cheaper' to run when the wages for the three men in the cab are low 14:44:17 <andythenorth> one town pays more than another 14:44:49 <Alberth> ie everything you do in the program is mostly global for the world, which means gameplay is the same everywhere on the map 14:46:40 <Alberth> that makes it eg feasible to play at 4096x4096, and use only 256x256 of that 14:47:04 <Alberth> and it doesn't matter where that 256x256 is 14:48:30 <Alberth> maybe the script should also be allowed to control the running cost factor or so 14:48:35 <Alberth> based on company 14:49:09 <Alberth> and probably engine, although then it becomes newgrf specific very quickly 14:49:19 <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/avGRgbO_460s.jpg AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH 14:52:27 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 14:55:05 *** chomwitt2 has joined #openttd 14:57:47 *** Gja has quit IRC 14:59:21 *** Sova has quit IRC 15:01:33 *** chomwitt1 has quit IRC 15:01:33 *** chomwitt3 has joined #openttd 15:05:53 <peter1138> Alberth, maybe that isn't a problem though 15:07:54 <supermop> i guess i envision spilting running cost into parts, A, B, maybe C, and then each vehicle is defined as having a certain amount of each 15:08:00 *** chomwitt2 has quit IRC 15:08:28 <supermop> then game or GS or newgrf could globally say, increase part A by 2% per year 15:08:43 <supermop> or decrease part B by 1% 15:09:01 <supermop> or randomly fluctuate 15:09:55 <supermop> maybe an old locomotive has 1000 units of A and 20 of B 15:10:08 *** Gja has joined #openttd 15:10:33 <supermop> but in 1860, A=1 and b=50 15:11:01 <supermop> maybe in 1960, A=10 and b=60 15:11:11 <supermop> idk 15:12:32 <supermop> a boring newgrf GS would keep all parts static, or increase them uniformly, and an exotic one would vary them by odd amounts for obscure reasons 15:13:49 <supermop> basically trying to solve the (maybe not real problem) of a horse and wagon is much cheaper to run than a truck in 1900, but is much more expensive to run than a truck in 2000 15:14:37 <supermop> same with sailboats vs steamships, or steam locomotives vs diesels 15:15:18 <supermop> or a diesel bus vs a super-capacitor bus 15:18:14 *** efess has joined #openttd 15:19:04 *** chomwitt4 has joined #openttd 15:19:47 <Wolf01> A/B/C => Fuel cost/spare parts/maintainance guys 15:20:18 <Wolf01> Maybe fees too XD 15:20:49 <supermop> Wolf01: i was thinking you'd do Mechanical/labor 15:20:57 <supermop> with fuel as C 15:21:52 <supermop> fuel probably goes slowly down over time (diesel would be pretty expensive in 0CE) while labor goes up 15:22:12 <supermop> mechanical could be static, or go slowly down or up 15:23:33 <supermop> maybe in 1940 the Diesel has more mechanical cost, similar fuel cost, and less labor costs than the steam locomotive 15:24:40 <supermop> but over the next 20 years, labor get proportionally more expensive, so even if the steam loco is mechanically simpler than the diesel, it cost more because it takes more people to run it 15:25:30 *** chomwitt3 has quit IRC 15:25:30 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 15:25:56 *** chomwitt4 has quit IRC 15:30:29 <supermop> you don't really even need to name the parts though 15:30:43 <supermop> or even separate them 15:33:57 *** chomwitt1 has joined #openttd 15:40:25 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 15:54:50 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 15:54:55 <Wolf01> Quak 15:55:06 <frosch123> hoin 15:59:55 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 16:03:17 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 16:23:13 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:33:24 *** Non-ICE has quit IRC 16:46:26 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 16:58:23 *** glx has joined #openttd 16:58:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:10:36 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:24:49 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 17:36:19 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd 17:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27854 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt spanish.txt) (2017-04-12 19:45:37 +0200 ) 17:45:47 <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints: 17:45:48 <DorpsGek> spanish: 30 changes by SilverSurferZzZ 17:45:49 <DorpsGek> czech: 18 changes by djst 17:57:40 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 18:06:35 <quiznilo> 'compatible addons' 18:06:38 *** Gja has quit IRC 18:06:44 <quiznilo> perhaps some kind of dependency system 18:07:37 <quiznilo> with blockers 18:18:26 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 18:40:39 <andythenorth> o/ 18:40:53 <Alberth> o/ 18:42:24 <supermop> yo 19:11:58 *** bwn has quit IRC 19:23:22 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 19:27:47 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC 19:30:23 *** bwn has joined #openttd 19:37:32 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 19:42:25 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 19:42:32 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 19:48:13 <andythenorth> is quiet 19:48:30 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 19:50:12 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 19:53:28 <Alberth> nn 19:54:27 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 19:55:32 *** Alberth has left #openttd 19:55:57 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 19:57:22 <Wolf01> High on ginger ale again wooooo!!! 20:01:52 *** Extrems has quit IRC 20:11:22 *** Extrems has joined #openttd 20:21:25 *** minisylf has quit IRC 20:25:16 *** Sylf has joined #openttd 20:44:45 *** Sylf has quit IRC 20:47:28 <supermop> Wolf01: how do you manage that 20:47:56 <Wolf01> Who? What? 20:50:20 <supermop> ginger ale 20:51:12 <Wolf01> I like it 20:53:31 <supermop> me too 20:55:07 <supermop> nice when i am queezy 20:55:19 <supermop> queasy? 20:56:34 <Wolf01> The nice thing is that I don't even like ginger, but I always eat it when I find it in various forms 20:56:46 <andythenorth> also bed 20:56:49 <Wolf01> nn 20:56:50 <andythenorth> bye 20:56:51 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 20:58:29 <supermop> we have candied ginger 20:58:43 <Wolf01> Yeah, I have a packet of that too 21:05:15 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:07:24 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:31:05 <peter1138> evening 21:33:18 <Wolf01> o/ 21:38:31 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 21:45:20 *** Long_yanG has joined #openttd 21:48:37 *** LongyanG has quit IRC 21:57:52 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:23:49 *** smoke_fumus has quit IRC 22:24:48 <Wolf01> 'night 22:24:51 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:37:30 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:39:28 <quiznilo> ginger in very small amounts in some foods is very, very good 22:39:36 <quiznilo> lots of people use way too much of it 22:39:54 <quiznilo> I'm like ginger ale though, and love ginger candies and cookies 22:49:22 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 22:50:33 *** DDR has joined #openttd 23:00:56 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 23:40:40 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 23:52:35 *** Extrems has quit IRC 23:53:00 *** Extrems has joined #openttd 23:53:08 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd 23:58:08 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC