Log for #openttd on 20th May 2017:
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08:57:08  <planetmaker> o/
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09:24:54  <Wolf01> o/
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13:31:05  <supermop_home> yo
13:31:26  <supermop_home> steam trams, diesel trucks, or bendy buses?
13:33:27  <Wolf01> Zeppelin trams
13:36:23  <andythenorth> o/
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13:37:43  <supermop_home> andythenorth I am dreading a slippery slope whereby I make an inferior remake of hog or egrvts
13:38:16  <supermop_home> but as is stands I feel trolleybi needs more, bigger vehicles, and conventional ones as well
13:40:03  <supermop_home> ogfx+ is all rigid half tile long vehicles, but I am tempted to add articulated trams and buses, semi-trucks, etc
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13:45:22  <planetmaker> supermop, not sure that OpenGFX+ needs to stay rigidly to half-tile vehicles. The remade default ones should be for compatibility reasons. But newer additions could feature different lengths, I think
13:45:50  <planetmaker> IIRC for the trains there's even one engine which changes length to 7/8 in the OGFX+ train set (turbo train)
13:47:04  <planetmaker> supermop, but consider that the tram and bus stops work "best" (in terms of capacity / through-put) with half-tile vehicles (or full tile).
13:50:13  <supermop_home> planetmaker: yeah, an bunch of 9/8semi trucks could get annoying
13:51:05  <supermop_home> I could make all trams either .5 or 1 tiles depending on if they are bendy,
13:52:38  <planetmaker> probably it's just a balancing issue in that the longer vehicles should carry more. How long exactly they are then doesn't matter and is more a visual choice
13:53:39  <planetmaker> Anyhow, a lot of this is a matter of looks, I think. And a visually 9/8 vehicle could probably still be coded as 8/8 with a slight overlap ;)
13:54:50  <supermop_home> for a semi-truck, can the tractor and trailer overlap at the hitch?
13:57:01  <andythenorth> yes
13:57:15  <andythenorth> RH messes with lengths and offsets for semi-trucks
13:57:20  <andythenorth> seems to work fine
14:00:34  <supermop_home> andythenorth so you can draw the hitch extending to rear axle(s) ?
14:04:00  <andythenorth>
14:05:05  <supermop_home> makes sense
14:08:30  * andythenorth shoudl finish fricking FIRS
14:08:33  <andythenorth> should *
14:09:53  <supermop_home> I cant believe I am making a truck set before a train set
14:10:15  * andythenorth did that
14:10:19  <andythenorth> we have enough trains
14:10:30  <andythenorth> also train lengths suck
14:10:38  <andythenorth> so making a set is demoralising
14:11:23  * supermop_home never really like trucks
14:11:32  <supermop_home> always loved trains
14:12:05  <supermop_home> I guess I am doing this out of a desire to force furtherance of nrt
14:13:03  <supermop_home> its illustrative of quirks of ELRD at least
14:13:40  <supermop_home> paradoxically, trolleybuses end up to be the hardest transit to build,
14:13:48  <andythenorth> what’s hard about them?
14:14:01  <supermop_home> have to remove town road
14:14:16  <supermop_home> can't just string up wires over a public street
14:15:12  <supermop_home> so ELRD ends up being most suitable for mining trucks, where the small capacity really shows
14:16:17  <supermop_home> you can 'cheat' by building roadstops on straight road to convert it to ELRD, but corners and intersection require destroying
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14:17:50  <supermop_home> I might add dual mode vehicles to help with running through an ornery town that wont let you rebuild its roads
14:18:11  <andythenorth> can’t overbuild normal road?
14:18:18  <supermop_home> no
14:18:26  <supermop_home> well you can with road stops
14:18:39  <supermop_home> but not with the convert tool
14:19:19  <supermop_home> currently you cannot convert roads owned by others, including towns
14:19:31  <andythenorth> that makes sense somewhat
14:20:05  <supermop_home> otherwise i could convert a towns roads to elrd and not pay upkeep, which is fine,
14:20:28  <supermop_home> but a competitor could come by and downgrade them to dirt or something
14:20:35  <andythenorth> I don’t see any resolution to that
14:20:47  <supermop_home> that kind of griefing is probably livable
14:21:04  <supermop_home> but i think nrt might need support for some kind of hierarchy
14:22:12  <supermop_home> where roads are ranked by their sort order
14:22:19  <frosch123> i think we had a solution
14:22:30  <frosch123> like allow converting town road to anything that is compatible to ROAD
14:23:00  <supermop_home> frosch123that would work
14:23:26  <supermop_home> would be nice if you could enforce that the upgrade must have equal or greater powered ness
14:23:56  <supermop_home> but could live without that
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14:33:23  <supermop_home> or set a property for roads that sets them as town buildable
14:33:43  <supermop_home> and you can upgrade to those?
14:33:46  <supermop_home> idk
14:34:24  <andythenorth> time for new FIRS cargo icons :P
14:35:07  <andythenorth> Cement, Coke, Explosives, Fertiliser, Kaolin, Peat, Pig Iron, Pipe, Quicklime, Slag, Soda Ash, Steel,  Sulphur, Vehicle Bodies, Zinc
14:35:20  <andythenorth> supermop_home: feel inspired to draw an icon? o_O ^
14:49:30  <andythenorth> bbl
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14:56:46  <frosch123> o/
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14:57:26  <nekomaster> Herpderp
14:57:52  <nekomaster> Anyone around that knows how to code railtypes in NML?
14:59:22  <nekomaster> I was wondering how to add Narrow Gauge railtype to my Nars Add-on set
15:02:04  <frosch123> you add a railtypetranslation table to your grf
15:02:10  <frosch123> and then specfiy the railtype for the vehicles
15:02:15  <nekomaster> I have that
15:02:21  <frosch123> load some other grf which provides narrow gauge and you are done
15:02:27  <nekomaster> I already have Metro support
15:03:03  <nekomaster> I just need the code thingy for it like how theres RAIL, ELRL, MTRO, 3RDR
15:03:10  <nekomaster> would ir be NGRL?
15:03:50  <planetmaker> what does the newgrf wiki suggest?
15:04:06  <planetmaker> what do other railtype NewGRFs use?
15:04:12  <nekomaster> I can't find anything
15:04:14  <frosch123>
15:04:26  <nekomaster> ahh
15:04:34  <nekomaster> I'm still waking up, so I dont know what to search up
15:16:09  <nekomaster> Thanks for the help guys
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16:39:20  <Wolf01> o/, quak
16:42:17  <Wolf01> Alberth, interested?
16:42:26  <Wolf01> Andy too, maybe
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16:57:42  <Alberth> nah, have programmed too much Python already :)
16:58:21  <Alberth> did pickup the robot book yesterday
17:00:39  <frosch123> aren't important books usually named by the color of their cover?
17:02:01  <Alberth> don't own such books
17:02:34  <Alberth> I do own the dragon book though, if that counts
17:03:33  <Alberth> and a few others, but they go by title or authors afaik
17:04:24  <Alberth> and a whole lot non-famous books :p
17:08:18  <quiznilo> krushia: Buy Tucson Steel™
17:11:07  <frosch123> @op
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17:11:19  *** frosch123 sets mode: -b Bhootrk_!*@*
17:11:42  *** frosch123 sets mode: -b *!~oftc-webi@
17:12:50  *** frosch123 sets mode: -b *!*@*
17:12:56  <frosch123> @deop
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19:49:12  <supermop_home> yo
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21:12:38  <supermop_home> I don't see a cb in specs for current rail type
21:13:05  <supermop_home> how do I have a switch to increase power/decrease running cost when on ELRD?
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21:17:42  <FLHerne> supermop_home: There's a track_type variable
21:18:22  <FLHerne> No
21:19:04  <frosch123> there is
21:19:15  <supermop_home> current_railtype ?
21:19:21  <FLHerne> current_railtype
21:19:28  <supermop_home> can I use current_roadtype?
21:19:48  <frosch123> <- there is current_roadtype
21:19:58  <frosch123> you can check it in the "power" callback
21:20:24  <supermop_home> if I ask if it is ELRD, do I also need a list of roads that are potentially compatible? of does the roadtype newgrf handle that
21:22:17  <supermop_home> also just on gut feeling, do you feel that dual mode trolley trucks should come after each of the last two trolley trucks, before, or same time
21:23:20  <frosch123> it only works for exact match
21:23:27  <supermop_home> like if trolley truck generations are 1,2,3,4, should dual mode trucks be 2.5, 3.5, or 3.5, 4.5?
21:24:15  <supermop_home> frosch123 so I need to include every possible electric road i know of?
21:24:36  <frosch123> yes
21:25:15  <frosch123> not sure whether dual-mode works well in game
21:25:20  <supermop_home> well currently i think I am the only person who has made non elrd electric roads, so at least I have complete knowledge
21:25:52  <supermop_home> frosch123 thats te point of trolleybi - to test how well electric RVs actually work
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21:36:06  <planetmaker> hm... that indeed makes a LARGE list of tracks to check for at the start of vehicle NewGRFs :)
21:36:38  <planetmaker> But it's basically a one-time setup... write a switch which is called by all vehicles just the same
21:36:43  <frosch123> for trains you just attach two engines to the consist
21:36:49  <frosch123> one regular, one electric
21:37:09  <planetmaker> Well... a regular also works on electric... no need for two
21:37:10  <frosch123> though, that is kind of only more power, not switching
21:37:28  <planetmaker> that's handled via the compatible_ and powered_railtype variables, isn't it?
21:38:03  <planetmaker> in the tracksets
21:38:09  <frosch123> the point is that you can have multiple train engines, but only one rv engine
21:38:11  <Wolf01> Yes, but at consist level in case of trains, for RVs it's extremely experimental
21:38:46  <frosch123> for a single engine, switching does not work for rail engines either
21:39:16  <frosch123> but we could add some new variable to test poweredness for some other rail/road/tram type
21:40:07  <Wolf01> It's already there, just check the existing one
21:40:53  <Wolf01> We should add a table, calculated on grf load
21:41:27  <Wolf01> A sort of reverse powered_roadtype
21:41:36  <planetmaker> Hm, I can't change power depending on track type for a single vehicle?
21:41:39  <supermop_home> planetmaker presumably not all trucks would get the same power boost though. i was thinking something like a 400hp truck that has 1000hp with electric power, and then the 600 hp truck has 1500hp
21:41:41  <frosch123> Wolf01: newgrf can only check for labels they know
21:41:48  <frosch123> they cannot check for stuff which they do not know
21:41:57  <Wolf01> Newgrfs yes, but the game knows everything
21:42:12  <frosch123> planetmaker: you can, but you have to know the exact tracktype
21:42:35  <planetmaker> supermop, yes, but I mostly meant the switch "is proper road type" which might return "ok to boost" and "no boost"
21:42:37  <frosch123> planetmaker: supermop wants to check for "is compatible to ELRD", not "is ELRD"
21:42:48  <Wolf01> They could ask via callback something like "I'm roadtype X, am I powered on the roadtypes of the current tile?"
21:42:54  <frosch123> only the latter is currently possible
21:43:20  <supermop_home> Wolf01what do you mean
21:43:20  <planetmaker> yes... so indeed: make a switch which checks for ELRD, DUAL, ... and returns either "1" or "0". And then in the calling switch - depending on that - set the vehicle-specific boost
21:43:45  <planetmaker> and when you learn of a new tracktype label which should also act as powered, then add that in that one "is it a compatible road" switch
21:43:49  <frosch123> so, let's add var 63 to the list
21:44:25  <planetmaker> frosch123, not "compatible" but "powered on"
21:45:06  <planetmaker> at least that's how I understand his use case?
21:45:17  <supermop_home> pm so I could do "power:  boost_switch"
21:45:17  <Wolf01> supermop, I mean that the grf doesn't need to know which roadtypes there are, they ask the game for that, the game just returns true or false by checking between all the combinations of all the grfs
21:45:18  <frosch123> planetmaker: "compatible" and "powered" are equivalent for roadtypes
21:45:58  <supermop_home> and then boost switch asks, "current_roadtype = ???"
21:46:06  <planetmaker> hm ok :)
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21:46:45  <planetmaker> supermop, yes something like that
21:46:47  <supermop_home> Wolf01 does the game do anything like that in any other cases?
21:47:15  <Wolf01> I don't know, but we might add callbacks like this for both road and rail
21:49:12  <Wolf01> This might help to make easily even dual type engines for rails
21:49:22  <frosch123>
21:49:23  <supermop_home> like rack engines
21:49:38  <supermop_home> increase TE when on rack rail?
21:50:39  <Wolf01> Wherever you want to use the result on the grf
21:50:49  <Wolf01> Increase TE, speed..
21:56:32  <Wolf01> I don't think is possible to have the same power of the closures of other languages, but if we can pass a parameter to a function and get a result back then there are a lot of possibilities
21:57:46  <Wolf01> If we can only read, then... well... that's limited
21:59:10  <supermop_home> currently i can do this?
21:59:11  <supermop_home>
22:00:30  <Wolf01> I do a lot of async programming which uses extensively this method, with the right braces :P
22:00:50  <Wolf01> Usually javascript
22:01:50  <frosch123> supermop_home: in the "property" section you must give a constant
22:02:16  <frosch123> then you add another "power"/cost" to the "graphics" section
22:03:47  <Wolf01> The problem is to choose the default values for the property section
22:04:09  <supermop_home> is default the unpowered case, or the powered case?
22:04:54  <Wolf01> Eh, depends on the depot from which you are purchasing the engine
22:05:12  <supermop_home>
22:05:35  <supermop_home> assuming this is a diesel truck first, and an electric truck second
22:06:11  <frosch123> as long as the thing in the graphics section always returns a value, the value in the property section does not matter
22:06:16  <frosch123> it only needs to be some value
22:06:24  <frosch123> "1" would do
22:06:30  <Wolf01> Good then
22:07:46  <supermop_home> so what I have works now, only for elrd? and NRT needs to change to allow it to work on compatible roads?
22:08:20  <frosch123> yes
22:08:32  <Wolf01> Yes, only for ELRD, the problem is that you can't know other roadtypes
22:08:40  <Wolf01> At least not those from other grfs
22:09:20  <frosch123> well, you can add all the types which you know when writing the grf :)
22:09:34  <supermop_home> should I wait until there is a better way?
22:09:43  <Wolf01> Which are just ROAD, ELRD, RAIL, ELRL
22:10:43  <supermop_home> will also need a switch for raising/lowering the pantograph
22:10:43  <Wolf01> Or just guess there are HAUL, HWAY etc
22:12:34  <Wolf01> You need a function like switch(hascatenary(current_roadtype))
22:13:26  <supermop_home> hmmm
22:13:28  <Wolf01> Or just an if
22:13:33  <supermop_home> that exists?
22:13:41  <Wolf01> I don't think
22:14:15  <Wolf01> If it existed for catenary then it should exist for every other possible feature too, like third rail, rack
22:14:37  <supermop_home> although someone may (mis)use catenary for some decorative thing on roads that has nothing to do with power
22:15:16  <Wolf01> Or do some electrified road without catenary graphics but with a rail
22:15:31  <Wolf01> So your pantograph is useless there
22:17:11  <supermop_home> well presumably whoever makes a 3rd rail road would not set it as compatible with a trolley wire road
22:17:27  <supermop_home> so if we could check some table, it wouldn't be an issue
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22:24:21  <Wolf01> But you can't check the table from the grf, as you don't know anything about other types, and if you can ask the game about that then you can only get a boolean, because you can't assign different values to unknown roadtypes
22:24:43  <supermop_home> but i can't yet ask the game
22:26:29  <supermop_home> if I do enumerate every known electric road type, does my switch then have a return line for each of those?
22:26:40  <frosch123> yes
22:27:21  <Wolf01> And if you encounter an unknown roadtype it just return the default
22:29:16  <supermop_home> did andy make an e-HAUL yet?
22:29:31  <Wolf01> Not as I know
22:30:04  <supermop_home> going to check forums for the other two road sets
22:31:09  <Wolf01> There is another, really evil possibility: hardcode 15 different roadtypes and grfs just change the graphics and costs XD
22:31:27  <supermop_home> ha
22:31:32  <Wolf01> And remove canals, of course
22:31:50  <supermop_home> add 15 canaltypes, none of which are buildable
22:32:39  <supermop_home> I wonder what andy will name e-haul in the future
22:32:45  <supermop_home> wonder if i can guess it
22:33:10  <supermop_home> EHAL? EHUL?
22:33:18  <supermop_home> EHHR?
22:33:24  <Wolf01> ELHL
22:33:26  <supermop_home> EHLR
22:33:33  <supermop_home> oh that's better Wolf01
22:33:35  <frosch123> HAUL does not allow other roadvehicles
22:33:46  <frosch123> so, no point in checking for it
22:34:14  <supermop_home> frosch123 a future ELHL  may allow trolley assist mining trucks
22:34:35  <Wolf01> Only because andy made it so, but if supermop wants to make his own HAUL which allows something other...
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22:35:24  <supermop_home> frosch123 aslo I could add a bunch of scooters, mopeds, and rickshaws that are compatible on both ROAD and HAUL just to mess with him
22:35:47  <Wolf01> Caterpillars on DIRT and HAUL, maybe on ROAD too just to piss off some fast bus lines
22:36:18  <supermop_home> the country roads set makes dirt and haul compatible I think
22:36:45  <Wolf01> HAUL should be able to run on DIRT, not vice versa
22:37:40  <Wolf01> As it opens the possibility to have every possible vehicle on HAUL too, since every ROAD vehicle can travel on DIRT
22:38:08  <Wolf01> I don't even know if that is possible :P
22:38:28  <frosch123> it's the other way around
22:38:31  <supermop_home> I've been thinking of making dirt not compatible with road per se
22:38:34  <frosch123> DIRT vehicles can drive everywhere
22:38:42  <frosch123> your f1 car cannot go on dirt
22:39:04  <supermop_home> frosch123maybe very slowly pushed byy hand
22:39:08  <frosch123> your 5mph DIRT bike can take the highway just fine
22:39:36  <frosch123> the other vehicles will happily slow down behind it
22:39:37  <Wolf01> HAUL: powered->DIRT, ROAD: powered->DIRT?
22:40:08  <frosch123> <- it's named OFFR there
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22:41:05  <supermop_home> In my mind dirt =/ off-road
22:41:10  <nekomaster> Herpderp
22:41:26  <Wolf01> Early ROADs were dirt :P
22:41:31  <nekomaster> Drunk Question : Can you change the diesel or steam smoke sprites in NML?
22:41:39  <supermop_home> i can drive slowly on a dirt road in a regular car, but if it is really rough, I need a jeep or a tank
22:41:51  <supermop_home> nekomasterthink so
22:42:05  <nekomaster> or i could just use the diesel smoke effect
22:42:23  <nekomaster> how would I get a steam engine to use diesel smoke?
22:42:33  <Wolf01> Also I really must to bed... I must wake up early
22:42:33  <nekomaster> without changing the class?
22:42:49  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:43:09  <supermop_home> visual_effect_diesel
22:43:28  <nekomaster> This is what I have
22:43:29  <nekomaster> visual_effect_and_powered: 		visual_effect_and_powered(VISUAL_EFFECT_DISABLE, 0, DISABLE_WAGON_POWER); //Set from graphics file
22:43:43  <nekomaster> where would I put the diesel effect?
22:44:07  <supermop_home> 	visual_effect:			VISUAL_EFFECT_ELECTRIC;
22:44:18  <supermop_home> is what my trolley buses use
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22:46:07  <nekomaster> i tried VISUAL_EFFECT_DIESEL instead of VISUAL_EFFECT_DISABLE and i still get steam
22:46:17  <supermop_home> hmm
22:46:29  <supermop_home> maybe trains work different
22:46:56  <supermop_home> with RVs there really isn't much else that makes them steam/diesel/whatever
22:47:24  <nekomaster> i mean the easiest way is to change the class but that will change the class the passenger cars for color too
22:47:40  <supermop_home> oh yeah RVs don't have that
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22:51:02  <nekomaster> nope, changing the class did not change the steam sprite
22:55:26  <nekomaster> For now, if anyone wants a taster of my steam engines here you go
22:55:26  <nekomaster>
22:55:48  <nekomaster> Its basically a new version of NARS ADD-ON set
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22:58:26  <nekomaster> Oh yeah, and theres a EMD Model 40 in my set already
22:59:53  <nekomaster> Heres what I have with the NARS ADD-ON SET 2CC Now
22:59:54  <nekomaster>
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