Log for #openttd on 24th August 2017:
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02:11:09  <SimYouLater> Anyone seen my post in the "What is OpenTTD today?" topic? I didn
02:11:14  <SimYouLater> >_<\
02:11:34  <SimYouLater> I didn't see it the day after I posted and thought the topic was deleted.
02:12:13  <SimYouLater> So I only just came across it by accident in a search for an unrelated keyword.
02:13:01  <SimYouLater> Aside from having replied to practically every topic all at once, I'm not up to date on anything that may have happened here in IRC since.
02:13:08  <SimYouLater> Anyone?
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02:40:30  <SimYouLater> Is anyone able to see my replies? Am I just not seeing yours? Can someone PM me if you see this?
02:47:53  <ST2> SimYouLater: I think many people read it - maybe some still thinking on it, or have some crazy ideas that devs won't go there
02:48:04  <ST2> I think I'm on that class
02:48:23  <ST2> but I read it all, not an opinion formed, yet
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02:48:49  <SimYouLater> I see. Thanks for responding, I was starting to think I was having bugs with the IRC.
02:49:11  <ST2> "What is OpenTTD today" is very related to what was couple years ago and what direction to take
02:49:59  <ST2> SimYouLater, maybe you dnt know mw, but I'm admin on BTPro - and we have 27 OpenTTD servers
02:50:02  <SimYouLater> I should have been more direct in the OP. The part about what happened two years ago was all rhetorical. Hence the name of the topic.
02:51:45  <ST2> SimYouLater: you need to understand that OpenTTD won't have a boom of players or popularity
02:52:04  <SimYouLater> At a point in the OP I did say that anything about that wasn't the point. That it was more about things feeling surprisingly dead, much more like the linked site, than most places I frequent.
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02:52:31  <ST2> we have some players that play, religiously, on every server
02:52:53  <ST2> but that's because they like our settings, goal servers, or whatever
02:53:06  <ST2> well, we try our best
02:53:42  <ST2> but, like me, that play now Settlers 2, OpenTTD is a mood thing
02:53:47  <SimYouLater> If there's no way that players will increase, I can live with that. It's more about the community having stalled, which fortunately is what everyone eventually ended up talking about in a roundabout way.
02:54:00  <Flygon> It's hard to have a boom of players when OpenTTD hit saturation point over a decade ago. :P
02:54:11  <SimYouLater> As it turns out, it's not the community that's stalled.
02:54:21  <Flygon> It just means there's a fucktonne of active players, and we hardly notice anymore, because there's not much more room to grow. :3
02:54:29  <ST2> we (BTPro) have a stable base of players
02:54:35  <ST2> now*
02:54:41  <SimYouLater> Just a communication issue with the part most important, the trunk development.
02:55:08  <ST2> ofc, many of the people playing it's because of testing online game or to see what this "game"
02:56:10  <ST2> the fact that's opensource, and everyone can create an online server - it's good and bad
02:56:16  <SimYouLater> Question unrelated to that. I've had trouble setting up a multiplayer game in any way, shape or form for use by myself and a friend. For whatever reason I can't get the server in public view.
02:56:17  <ST2> good: more choices
02:56:42  <ST2> bad: people join, play and get blocked or whatever and no admins
02:56:46  <SimYouLater> Sorry, hard to read while typing long replies.
02:57:35  <ST2> SimYouLater: same here, while making Viking won on the other screen xD
02:57:39  <SimYouLater> I get what you
02:57:44  <SimYouLater> '>_<
02:58:20  <ST2> SimYouLater: server on your computer or..?!
02:58:45  <ST2> maybe need to redirect ports on router or something
02:58:48  <SimYouLater> I get what you're saying about the open source and the community being fine. I can tell it's mostly some animosity between the majority and the devs which seems to have been talked about and resolved.
02:58:57  <SimYouLater> For the server...
02:59:19  <ST2> hint: use shorter sentences
02:59:30  <ST2> easier to read (faster, at least)
02:59:47  <SimYouLater> the idea is to have a dedicated server running off of my desktop. This would be accessed by myself, my friend and anyone we give the password to.
03:00:05  <SimYouLater> Ah. Sorter posts it is then.
03:00:14  <ST2> check openttd ports used
03:00:33  <ST2> and must be redirected to your computer on the Router
03:01:19  <ST2> redirected = forwarded
03:01:34  <ST2> depends on the lexic or router used ^^
03:05:12  <SimYouLater> I'm having to relearn all the server setup... The last time I tried was months ago...
03:05:36  <ST2> join the club ^^
03:05:46  <SimYouLater> I know there are two types of firewalls, firstly.
03:05:56  <ST2> my home "old" server is now on the storage
03:06:00  <SimYouLater> How can I tell if I have a software firewall?
03:06:14  <ST2> since we have 2 rented servers... no need to a home one
03:06:40  <ST2> [04:05:58] <SimYouLater> How can I tell if I have a software firewall? <<-- only you can know that :P
03:08:11  <ST2> <<-- the ironic music xD
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03:11:50  <SimYouLater> lost network connection.
03:11:55  <SimYouLater> Right.
03:12:13  <SimYouLater> So, likely programs I have and can think of...
03:12:22  <SimYouLater> ...for a firewall...
03:12:35  <SimYouLater> Avast, Malwarebytes, and Windows 10 itself.
03:12:58  <ST2> it's your computer ^^
03:13:07  <ST2> manage it better :P
03:14:22  <SimYouLater> In what way?
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03:15:14  <SimYouLater> Oh, and the internet loss wasn't the OS. I had to unplug it to try and change the IP address my computer already had assigned in the router.
03:15:27  <SimYouLater> Still working on getting that fixed.
03:16:31  <ST2> if it helps, try to use to DDNS services - your IP can change - but updates
03:16:57  <SimYouLater> Look, if you're going to say "manage my computer better" because you're exhasperated at something I may or may not have done, explain because I'm not clueless.
03:18:03  <ST2> by "manage my computer better" I mean't you must know what you have installed and what it does
03:18:04  <SimYouLater> Just checked Dynamic DNS in the router. It's off.
03:19:09  <SimYouLater> I know Avast can have a firewall. I know Malwarebytes might. I know Windows 10 can. I know I don't have anything else that would deal with firewalls except my router.
03:19:21  <ST2> something to read and test:
03:19:34  <ST2> 1st that came to my mind
03:20:31  <SimYouLater> Okay, now you're losing me. I've seen no-ip before, but...
03:20:55  <SimYouLater> Right now I'm going through these steps:
03:21:25  <ST2> anyway, if you provide your IP to your friends and not being seen - it's not passing by your router
03:21:28  <SimYouLater> Since the following only covers the dedicated part...
03:22:02  <ST2> remember to open ports
03:22:18  <ST2> 3979 and so on (talking by heart)
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03:22:52  <SimYouLater> It's not with the IP address not being seen. I make it publicly viewable and it doesn't show up. While right now it's not set up, I had the port forwarding and everything ready, and had that issue.
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03:23:40  <ST2> so, any firewall SW preventing it?
03:24:01  <SimYouLater> That's why I'm having to set it up again.
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03:26:28  <SimYouLater> Okay, well first I have one issue. One that's nrelated. My computer was connected to 192.168.1."A" in the DHCP reservation. However the label was as a different computer so I had to remove it because I couldn't change the name and re-add it...
03:26:59  <SimYouLater> After removing it, it says it can't add it because 192.168.1."A" is in use.
03:27:18  <ST2>
03:27:23  <ST2> that's your IP
03:27:30  <SimYouLater> So I tried unlugging my internet to disconnect that.
03:27:50  <SimYouLater> After plugging the cord back into the rear of my tower, no change.
03:27:55  <ST2> 192.168.*.*
03:28:11  <ST2> it's always internal network addresses
03:28:32  <SimYouLater> So I assign the DHCP reservation under 192.168.1."B" and it still hasn't changed.
03:28:44  <SimYouLater> Oh. Let me check..
03:28:44  <ST2> that's your choice
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03:29:25  <ST2> 192.168.*.* are internal network addresses
03:29:35  <SimYouLater> The computer is already using auto Ip.... let's try changing it...
03:29:38  <ST2> you can see that on router
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03:30:20  <SimYouLater> Yeah. Router still says it's under 192.18.1."A" and even the name that was incorrect is still there.
03:30:42  <SimYouLater> The MAC Address is the same as this computer.
03:31:09  <SimYouLater> The computer it was named as is no longer connected to the network. Hasn't been for weeks.
03:31:13  <ST2> [04:27:16] <ST2>  <<--
03:31:20  <ST2> what you get on there?
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03:32:01  <SimYouLater> For external IP? 2001:569:f8c4:b800:28a4:29e3:c478:1faa
03:32:30  <ST2> ok, the IP you need to open your Router to accept connections
03:32:46  <ST2> and forward to your internal network IP
03:32:48  <SimYouLater> First I want to get the DHCP reservation fixed.
03:33:16  <ST2> that may depend on on your ISP
03:33:32  <SimYouLater> i can't assign this PC as 192.168.1."A" even though it already had that IP, is still connected as it, but with the wrong name...
03:34:05  <SimYouLater> The name will get changed to match that of this computer, I know that.
03:34:08  <ST2> acceptable addresses are: to
03:34:26  <ST2> but maybe one is already used by your router
03:34:44  <ST2> see the range your router gives to network
03:34:54  <SimYouLater> It just won't let me "unpair" this PC from 192.168.1."A. so that I can repair it.
03:35:12  <ST2> stop saying 192.168.1."A"
03:35:18  <SimYouLater> It needs to have 192.168.1."B" temporarily...
03:35:26  <ST2> it's from 1 ro 254
03:35:27  <SimYouLater> Fine.
03:35:32  <ST2> to*
03:35:50  <SimYouLater> is taken up by this PC. I need it as any other IP for a few seconds.
03:36:05  <SimYouLater> Then back to
03:36:11  <ST2> so... what's the Router network IP?
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03:36:35  <ST2> and, if it's a router, what's the IP's he allows on the network?
03:36:37  <SimYouLater> Hold on. Said he wrong hing.
03:36:50  <ST2> 2 questions above
03:36:54  <SimYouLater> is taken up by this PC. I need it as any other IP for a few seconds...
03:36:58  <ST2> 2 questions above
03:37:21  <SimYouLater> because it won't let me give DHCP reservation to because it's in use.
03:37:36  <ST2> I made 2 questions
03:37:48  <ST2> no answers... I can't help you :S
03:38:11  <SimYouLater> I don't know the right words, butI need to "unpair" this PC from and even though I've unplugged it temporarily...
03:38:26  <SimYouLater> The IP still persists.
03:38:33  <ST2> SimYouLater, read above, please
03:38:36  <Sylf> Sim, I think you really need to answer those 2 questions
03:38:55  <SimYouLater> The router network IP is
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03:39:27  <ST2> ok, and, somewhere on Router SW it says the range allowed for the network
03:39:59  <ST2> probably above *.*.*.10
03:40:10  <ST2> but that, only you can see ^^
03:40:13  <SimYouLater> to
03:40:34  <ST2> ok, so
03:40:50  <ST2> what's your computer, now, internal IP?
03:41:14  <SimYouLater> It's still
03:41:36  <ST2> ok, so, forward the OpenTTD ports to that address
03:41:49  <SimYouLater> Which I have to change temporarily to re-add it as in DHCP reservation.
03:41:55  <ST2> 3979 (TCP/UDP)
03:42:04  <ST2> and read more
03:42:13  <ST2> I'm talking by heart :)
03:43:16  <SimYouLater> Right now I'm asking for help with the DHCP reservation. I'll get to the ports after.
03:43:48  <Sylf> why do you need the reservation?
03:43:53  <ST2> I had no issues with W10, W7 and Debian linux - it's all on redirecting ports on router
03:44:10  <Sylf> can you reconfigure DHCP range from *.1.30 to *.1.200 or something
03:44:19  <Sylf> then configure the server to a fixed IP?
03:44:28  <Sylf> boom, all is done.
03:44:48  <Sylf> then once you have a fixed IP configured, forward the port to that IP, and you have a working server.
03:44:48  <SimYouLater> Because that's how I have static IPs. Or I could do it within the computer itself if that's a better way. But right now I need to ensure it will keep 192.1681.10  if it turns off for a while.
03:44:53  <ST2> I even suggested a DDNS - solves many things xD
03:45:26  <ST2> with a DDNS, the rest is internal Router settings
03:45:39  <SimYouLater> I'd rather fix the setup I had. If it doesn't work, then I'll look into DDNS.
03:46:02  <Sylf> DDNS is outside of the lan, isn't it?
03:46:10  <ST2> yeah
03:46:20  <ST2> but because I have Din IP
03:46:21  <Sylf> so it has nothing to do with lan DHCP issues
03:46:45  <SimYouLater> Am I using the wrong sense of "DDNS"? The setting in my router that most closely matches...
03:46:50  <ST2> if issues on lan, DDNS won't help, that's a sur ^^
03:46:52  <SimYouLater> is Dynamic DNS.
03:47:19  <Sylf> DDNS makes it easier for players to find your external IP
03:47:39  <Sylf> Nothing to do with the issue with fixing the server to
03:47:54  <Sylf> so let's leave DDNS out of the discussion for now
03:48:05  <SimYouLater> Alright.
03:48:36  <Sylf> I don't know how your router does DHCP... with mine, I can assign a specific MAC address to a specific IP.
03:48:47  <ST2> Sylf: and I'm listening the right music now ^^
03:48:50  * ST2  Music: (Playing)  Nirvana - You Know You're Right (XI Rock - Modern and Alternative Rock)  208:43/00:00 
03:48:56  <SimYouLater> Same here. The issue is...
03:49:28  <Sylf> *listening*
03:49:32  <SimYouLater> 1. My router had the DHCP reservation under the name of my old phone.
03:49:43  <SimYouLater> 2. I couldn't rename it.
03:49:56  <SimYouLater> 3. To change that, I had to re-add my PC.
03:50:23  <Sylf> What name?
03:50:35  <SimYouLater> 4. After removing it, my router won't accept the mac address of my pc under because its "already in use".
03:50:41  <Sylf> Name has nothing to do with port forwarding
03:50:51  <SimYouLater> some random string of numbers and letters.
03:50:58  <SimYouLater> Android does that.
03:51:17  <Sylf> What IP are you trying to use for the server?
03:51:41  <SimYouLater> internal.The external is the IPv6 above...
03:51:58  <ST2> I'm connected with 2 Android phones on my network... and never saw it ^^
03:52:26  <ST2> check your PC - has a fixes network IP od dynamic?
03:52:29  <Sylf> And what IP is reserved on the router, to which MAC?
03:52:33  <ST2> fixed*
03:52:53  <SimYouLater> About android thing:!topic/nexus/iIlq463rl6w
03:53:11  <Sylf> I really don't care about names.
03:53:27  <SimYouLater> > I'm connected with 2 Android phones on my network... and never saw it ^^
03:53:37  <SimYouLater> I was answering ST2
03:54:06  <ST2> for the Router... shouldn't matter the device connecting
03:54:27  <SimYouLater> PC says "Obtain an IP address automatically"
03:54:48  <ST2> and it's now?
03:54:53  <Sylf> what IP is reserved on the router, to which MAC?
03:55:03  <ST2> (betting it works because you're still here ^^)
03:55:52  <SimYouLater> is reserved to nothing. It's still connected to my PC: 4C-CC-6A-0A-B9-F2
03:56:21  <ST2> ok, forward port 3979 to that addresses
03:56:23  <Sylf> Also, do you really need to use  Can you be happy with  If yes, reserve that IP to MAC 4C-CC-6A-0A-B9-F2
03:56:51  <Sylf> Or, do that once, renew the DHCP lease, then you should have for your PC.
03:57:09  <SimYouLater> I already reserved it tgo to try and change it even if only temporarily. It still says... Connected Full-Duplex
03:57:19  <ST2> Sylf know my feeling - I always likje to wake up on odd numbers so, instead of 6:30 I make 11:32
03:57:21  <Sylf> If you really want to, you can change the IP reservation setting back to use when you're using
03:57:30  <ST2> and I wake up much better xD
03:58:19  <SimYouLater> @Sylf I know. It's not at ...1.20 in the reservation but it is at ...1.2
03:58:20  <Sylf> Have you disconnected and reconnected after you made the change?
03:58:38  <SimYouLater> brb then.
03:59:52  <ST2> well, a brb, wnd not disconnecting
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04:00:00  <ST2> and*
04:00:03  <Sylf> there's the disconnect
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04:00:20  <SimYouLater_> Now it's changed to ...1.2
04:00:52  <SimYouLater_> brb then since that's fauirly easy to fix in the preferred way now that I know how.
04:00:53  <Sylf> so, it's the classic case of IT crowd
04:01:01  <Sylf> "Have you turned it off and on again?"
04:01:08  <ST2> hehe
04:01:40  <ST2> fact is that on Linux isn't needed
04:02:02  <ST2> but, as W10 user... I support it :=
04:02:08  <ST2> :)
04:02:10  <Sylf> you still need to redo the connection... you can't renew the IP without disconnect
04:03:01  <SimYouLater_> Strange, the name is still the random string, and another Windows 10 PC as well as this one at some point in the past aren't doing that but showing the computer's system name
04:04:02  <SimYouLater_> Which is hy I haven't disconnected again yet.
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04:04:19  <ST2> [04:59:58] <ST2> and*
04:04:19  <ST2> [05:00:01] <Sylf> there's the disconnect
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04:04:37  <ST2> thank you Sylf for helping :)
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04:04:58  <SimYouLater> I don't know what happened, but I didn't unplug yet.
04:05:12  <SimYouLater> and internet was up the whole time.
04:05:24  <SimYouLater> IRC just dropped me for some reason.
04:05:44  <ST2> you changed settings... normally that happens ^^
04:05:53  <ST2> dnt be scared ;)
04:06:15  <SimYouLater> Except I haven't changed settings in the router since I last reconnected
04:06:27  <SimYouLater> The DHCP is still in
04:06:32  <ST2> changed on PC?
04:06:40  <SimYouLater> Not there either.
04:07:19  <ST2> ok, let me write a letter to pope Francis for another miracle xD
04:07:37  <SimYouLater> Seriosuly, no changes to my router's or pc's settings despite saying I would.
04:07:46  <SimYouLater> Whatever, I'm connected now.
04:08:03  <ST2> so, you know your network IP and your external one
04:08:45  <ST2> on the router, forward the ports to your computer (in and out, TCP and UDP)
04:08:49  <SimYouLater> The problem is that the random string letter-number name is still there. A borrowed family member's Windows 10 Home tablet is showing he right name, and this PC has in th past.
04:09:11  <ST2> and stated, standard are 3979 - unless you change your cfg files
04:09:37  <SimYouLater> Except now the name is under
04:09:59  <ST2> do not mess up DNS with WINS
04:10:58  <SimYouLater> I think I might have to remove the DHCP and then restart the PC. I've got a Razer driver install telling me to do it anyway... let me try that./
04:11:35  <SimYouLater> > do not mess up DNS with WINS
04:11:35  <SimYouLater> ?
04:12:00  <SimYouLater> As in, don't confuse DNS with Windows 10?
04:12:05  <ST2>
04:12:11  <SimYouLater> Or don't use "wins" to modify DNS?
04:12:28  <ST2> well, that was for PT
04:12:53  <ST2> but you need to understand WINS to know how DNS works
04:13:21  <ST2> one is the way back of the other, lets put it on short words xD
04:13:32  <SimYouLater> I'm not touching WINS, don't worry. Right now I'm just trying to make my router's setting more organized.
04:15:26  <SimYouLater> By name, I mean that the name it gives for my PC was the old phone's "name". For a Winsdows 10 Tablet that was connected, it has the name of the PC in that PC's system settings: CLARA-1957
04:16:16  <ST2> SimYouLater: it doesn't matter: your Router controls it
04:16:36  <ST2> show to your Router who has the "balls" xD
04:16:41  <SimYouLater> And in the past my desktop has shown the system name instead of the random string which I at least recognize the first two letter-nmbers as the one my phone had.
04:17:59  <SimYouLater> If it was working properly, it would say PCDESK-1991.
04:18:59  <SimYouLater> I'm going to try the restart of my PC, that might work.
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04:19:04  <ST2> well, on there... only can say ^^
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06:26:51  <andythenorth> o/
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06:37:27  <crem> \o
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06:37:54  <andythenorth> how’s the game crem?
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06:41:29  <V453000> yo
06:44:05  <crem> Well, it goes pretty well. :)
06:44:23  <crem> Do you usually build two-track railway from the beginning?
06:44:35  <andythenorth> personally no
06:44:44  <andythenorth> it’s a cheaper start with1 track
06:44:53  <andythenorth> also I like to mess up my network deliberately
06:45:08  <andythenorth> keeps the mid-game more interesting, fixing my early mess
06:45:26  <andythenorth> V453000 such 5am again :(
06:45:29  * andythenorth old man moaning
06:45:49  <crem> But more than one train per track, right?
06:46:23  <crem> I don't mess anything deliberately, but the network soon starts to be a mess anyway.
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06:55:46  <andythenorth> more than one train per track, with passing loops
06:57:23  <V453000> 5 am?
06:57:24  <V453000> fuck
06:57:31  <V453000> I finally went to sleep at 1
06:57:35  <V453000> slept until 8
06:59:32  <andythenorth> loser
06:59:38  <andythenorth> 7 hours sleep is way too much
06:59:57  <V453000> also found some sick music I listened to 10 years ago, having a good morning
06:59:58  <V453000> G_G
07:00:20  <andythenorth> I worked till 10pm, pointlessly read intenet until 11pm, got woke up by wife before 5am
07:00:23  <andythenorth> such winning
07:00:32  <andythenorth> what music?
07:01:18  <V453000> XD
07:01:38  <V453000> Fear Factory, some good industrial metal
07:02:42  <V453000> it's a nice mix of good quality and just straight forward heavy not giving a fuck mess ... and I feel like I haven'
07:02:49  <V453000> t heard anything like that recently made
07:03:27  <V453000> even their newer albums are usually trying to be political and give a message and sometimes when you just overdo it, it is really weird in heavy music to me
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07:05:37  <V453000> TL;DR shit's great
07:08:59  * andythenorth youtubes it
07:09:04  <andythenorth> such industrial metal eh
07:11:26  <V453000> they're super old and their style changed quite a lot so it's hard to randomly youtube it :D
07:12:28  <andythenorth>
07:12:33  <andythenorth> seems legit
07:13:35  <V453000> yeah this is the super old stuff, can't say I like that much
07:13:58  <V453000> it's not bad, I just prefer the newer things
07:14:07  <V453000> medium era, modern
07:15:45  <V453000> hm shit now I realize I need to copy the old things as well
07:17:58  <andythenorth> maybe it’s a Nine Inch Nails day here
07:19:25  <V453000> haha
07:19:47  <andythenorth> such techno
07:20:12  <andythenorth> Nine Inch Nails is like the second most ultimate form of pop music
07:20:17  <andythenorth> after the KLF
07:20:59  <V453000> yeah I know NIN, I heard the whole discography about few times but I didn't really like it that much
07:21:49  <andythenorth> it was maybe a moment-in-time thing
07:22:09  <andythenorth> along with watching this on heavy repeat
07:22:21  <andythenorth> and playing LAN Doom in the dark hours of the night
07:23:23  <V453000> XD
07:27:45  <V453000> omfg discovered new interesting way how to make a tree so it's less minecraft :D
07:30:47  <andythenorth> pictures
07:30:54  * andythenorth having a newgrf break
07:31:51  <V453000>
07:32:06  <V453000> basically green shapes (bricks) held by some branches
07:32:14  <V453000> instead of branch structure going inside
07:32:16  <andythenorth> looks like a hug
07:32:20  <V453000> iz hug
07:32:23  <andythenorth> iz
07:32:27  <V453000> grate
07:32:54  <andythenorth>
07:33:05  <V453000> yeah don't want to go full lego ;P
07:33:16  <V453000> I feel like taking lego and minecraft references is kind of lame
07:33:17  <andythenorth> tropic
07:33:22  <andythenorth> iz lame
07:33:31  <V453000> iz
07:33:42  <andythenorth> I use it to see shapes though
07:33:45  <andythenorth> also colours
07:33:50  <V453000> point good
07:33:56  <andythenorth> reduces realism to simple forms and shit
07:34:10  <andythenorth> such art
07:34:32  * andythenorth back to politics
07:34:34  <andythenorth> and FS
07:35:18  <V453000> XD
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07:36:35  <andythenorth> oops, playing this loud with kids nearby
07:36:38  <andythenorth> error
07:37:41  <V453000> when hearing both together with this ...
07:37:43  <V453000> pretty fucked up
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07:38:00  <V453000> ... that's one of their electro grindcore whatever experiments XD
07:39:28  <V453000> also dirty AF
07:39:33  <andythenorth> works
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07:40:35  <V453000> sometimes I tend to listen to 80s styled synthwave, something about it is just so refreshing this one is rather dark but you get the point
07:42:38  <andythenorth> ha skulls and shit
07:43:08  <V453000> this thing is nuts
07:43:13  <andythenorth> they have definitely got some Depeche Mode in their CD collection
07:43:14  <V453000> 80s from the first second I Feel like
07:43:39  <andythenorth> pure Miami Vice
07:43:43  <V453000> note that I was born in 1990 so I don't know fuck about 80s, I am just a cool kid listening to 'that old music' now
07:43:44  <V453000> haha
07:44:20  <V453000> yeah I should go take shower and get back to making treehugs
07:44:22  <andythenorth>
07:44:22  <V453000> fuck yeah
07:44:40  <V453000> yeah
07:44:41  <V453000> similar
07:44:42  <andythenorth> that LZRHWK song is pretty much Miami Vice theme :D
07:44:46  <V453000> dem synths
07:44:53  <andythenorth> fuck showering
07:45:00  <andythenorth> gets in way of work and internet
07:45:08  <V453000> lawyered
07:45:17  <V453000> mainly the latter is obviously critically important
07:45:23  <V453000> well, shower & hugs
07:45:23  <V453000> laters
07:45:41  <V453000> ok, work after, I promis
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07:57:43  <Rokstap> Good day, I would like to know how to drive cheat codes just I play through the phone  ПЕРЕВЕСТИ
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08:09:47  <crem> what.. Release of 'Cook Serve Delicious 2' is delayed :(  It should have been released today!
08:28:12  <andythenorth> V453000: this LZRHWK album has now gone full on Kraftwerk :o
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08:29:52  <V453000> moar huggin
08:29:55  <V453000> yeah that's possible
08:30:01  <Wolf01> Moin
08:30:26  <andythenorth> V453000: super geometries
08:30:31  <andythenorth> geometrees :(
08:30:37  <andythenorth> bad pun
08:30:37  <Wolf01> NotTrees would be cool
08:31:31  <Wolf01> Tell the game at which height a tree could be built, which terrain, remove logic from game
08:32:08  <andythenorth> win win win
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08:32:39  <andythenorth> also no need for multiple tree building algorithms
08:32:48  <andythenorth> move the algorithm to script
08:32:59  <andythenorth> one less combinatorial thing
08:33:02  <V453000> sure and support for 64 tree growth stages so there isn't so little sprites for trees
08:33:10  <andythenorth> 64?
08:33:12  <Wolf01> Algorithm per-tree
08:33:13  <andythenorth> 256!
08:33:21  <V453000> an control over framerate of each tree
08:33:23  <V453000> fuck yeah
08:33:28  <andythenorth> why not :P
08:33:28  <peter1138> ini files
08:33:34  <andythenorth> except such map space
08:33:35  <peter1138> shaders
08:33:37  <andythenorth> hey look a peter1138
08:33:43  <Wolf01> Tree changes with season? O_O
08:34:00  <andythenorth> peter1138: V453000 sent me this thing which is like all the 1980s in one album
08:34:41  <peter1138> i put skull & shark on first
08:35:00  <andythenorth> oh now it’s gone Daft Punk
08:35:02  <V453000> tree changes with local slug mood based on annual slug referendum at local steel mills?
08:35:12  <andythenorth> DP isn’t 1980s :P
08:35:21  <Wolf01> andythenorth: prepare a spec?
08:35:22  <andythenorth> V453000: way too much politics
08:35:45  <andythenorth> Wolf01: what does current tree algorithm do?
08:35:54  <Wolf01> Stuff
08:35:56  <andythenorth> is it a tile loop, visited periodically?
08:36:01  <Wolf01> Yes
08:36:19  <andythenorth> any spec will have to get through an inevitable “is this just newobjects” step :P
08:36:22  <andythenorth> shall we do it now?
08:36:28  <Wolf01> Checks for other trees, plants new trees semi-random-based
08:36:43  <andythenorth> is NoTrees just an extension of NewObjects?
08:36:56  <Wolf01> Could be
08:37:00  <andythenorth> wrong answer :)
08:37:05  <andythenorth> “No”
08:37:16  <andythenorth> trees is trees
08:37:18  <Wolf01> But trees have far more impact than standard objects, so no
08:37:27  <andythenorth> we don’t need to be planting objects all over the map randomly
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08:40:10  <Celestar> hm .. it's been a while since a fetched the repo O-o
08:40:46  <peter1138> not much changed i bet
08:40:49  <andythenorth> :o
08:40:52  <andythenorth> it’s a Celestar
08:41:01  <Celestar> haha :)
08:41:06  <Celestar> it hasn't, peter1138?
08:41:12  <V453000> :000 :P
08:41:15  <peter1138> just guessing
08:41:21  <Wolf01> Somebody wants to review this? Beware: long patch of find & replace
08:41:45  <andythenorth> so how do pull requests work then? o_O
08:42:30  <peter1138> someone says "pull pls"
08:43:45  <Celestar> it still is on svn :P
08:43:56  <peter1138> :(
08:45:04  <Celestar> how ya been?
08:46:52  <V453000> andythenorth: apparently the best way to keep developers around is so start closing a shitload of FS tickets so everyone starts caring again about their ancient glorious ideas XD
08:47:05  <Wolf01> Ha!
08:47:08  <andythenorth> makes it seem like shit is happening eh?
08:47:09  <andythenorth> also
08:47:14  <V453000> iz
08:47:27  <andythenorth> nobody wants to wade through 840 things that are badly categorised, badly titled
08:47:28  <andythenorth> untested
08:47:29  <andythenorth> aging
08:47:34  <V453000> just reopen the tickets in 2 months and then go for another round
08:47:38  <andythenorth> no
08:47:42  <V453000> XD
08:47:44  <andythenorth> just close 200 of the 436 remaining
08:47:47  <V453000> iz plan I promise
08:47:50  <andythenorth> see who comes here to complain
08:47:56  <andythenorth> have a chat with them
08:48:46  * Celestar hates svn
08:49:10  <andythenorth> get the git
08:49:17  <andythenorth>
08:49:24  <andythenorth> there’s even a github remote or something
08:49:31  <crem> Visual SourceSafe!
08:49:36  <andythenorth>
08:49:40  <Wolf01> I use VSS :P
08:49:56  <andythenorth> dunno how the github syncs, if it’s just one way
08:50:06  <andythenorth> bit limiting for pull requests eh?
08:50:14  <Celestar> Visual SourceWhatCrap?
08:50:28  <crem> For personal repository, it's proper two-way sync.
08:50:46  <Wolf01> Oh god... SimYouLater answered to "what is ottd today?"
08:50:54  <Wolf01> Wall of text
08:51:20  <andythenorth> don’t reply
08:51:24  <andythenorth> I asked if it can be locked
08:51:28  <Celestar> I cannot possibly believe that Microsoft is able to produce a useful RCS.
08:51:39  <Wolf01> I don't think I want to read it either
08:51:46  <andythenorth> it’s worth reading, but not replying
08:52:03  <andythenorth> it contains so much wrong, that I think there are mental health issues of some kind
08:52:10  <andythenorth> or something like that
08:52:46  <andythenorth> I thought of at least 10 replies so far, but they all seem like bullying or showboating
08:53:08  <Wolf01> If only we had a quote system or even hyperlinks to be able to get the question he answered...
08:53:47  <andythenorth> I also had some preliminary PM previews of that post
08:53:48  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> it contains so much wrong, that I think there are mental health issues of some kind <- yes, he said that already in NRT topic
08:54:00  <andythenorth> I got a personal edition sent directly
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08:56:00  <Wolf01> Ok, since he replied for every post, I could just put 2 browser windows side by side
08:56:09  <andythenorth> same
08:56:12  <V453000> well I better go to work, but geometreehugs is a lot of fun
08:56:18  <andythenorth> V453000 same here
08:56:30  <andythenorth> you should keep that name btw
08:56:34  <Wolf01> Same h... not :(
08:57:22  <andythenorth> bug count increased :(
08:57:23  <andythenorth>
08:57:49  <V453000> :)
08:58:09  <V453000> also I plan to go wild with toyland trees
08:58:10  <V453000> fyu
08:58:12  <V453000> fyi
08:58:13  <V453000> fya
08:58:15  <V453000> ff
08:58:16  <V453000> g
08:58:21  <V453000> I should probably go. :D
08:58:23  <V453000> cyas
08:58:27  <Wolf01> Bye
09:02:13  <andythenorth> biab
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09:02:44  <peter1138> hi
09:03:05  <peter1138> nice tree
09:06:07  <peter1138> hmm, over compression is getting to me on that skull & shark album
09:11:09  <LordAro> peter1138: you know bikes
09:20:35  <peter1138> sup
09:41:16  <peter1138> no?
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09:41:48  <LordAro> peter1138: want a road bike. ~£800. any thoughts?
09:43:05  <Alkel_U3> Speaking of bikes, does anyone know about a simple front hub with 36 holes and 74mm dropout? I can't find any and fear I'll have to replace the whole fork :/
09:44:01  <peter1138> LordAro, depends what it'll be for
09:44:37  <peter1138> 36 holes on the front? that's a lot
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09:45:18  <LordAro> peter1138: largely commuting, but the occasional "event" type thing (hopefully with increasing frequency)
09:45:21  <crem> bikes? Are there bikes in openttd? For transport of pizza it's good.
09:45:50  <peter1138> < only 28 holes on those :S
09:47:05  <andythenorth> crem: o_O
09:47:31  <Alkel_U3> yeah, maybe I'll try to stick with 28h for now but with the amount of potholes I meet I'd perhaps be happiest with replacing the front wheel for a rounded stone slab
09:48:30  <andythenorth> you need a tweel
09:49:15  <Alkel_U3> I'd definitely need a larger fork for that :D
09:50:08  <LordAro> peter1138: i've been looking at Whyte & PlanetX
09:54:23  <peter1138> planetx london road is alright
09:54:30  <peter1138> bit over 800 though
09:55:05  <peter1138> ribble have a few sub £800 builds
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10:00:14  <peter1138> they let you choose bits as well
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10:11:03  <Alkel_U3> *sigh* there are no double-walled 406-19 28h rims either, apparently
10:11:57  <Alkel_U3> so the hubs that would fit into my forks are only up to 28h but the rims that I like are mostly 36h
10:16:02  <peter1138> :(
10:16:28  <Alkel_U3> I would sum it up like that, yes
10:17:08  <peter1138>
10:17:08  <peter1138> :p
10:17:18  <peter1138> sounds and looks nasty
10:18:29  <Alkel_U3> I'd rather go with a new fork than that :-)
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10:21:22  <Alkel_U3> I want the wheel to not go aut of true easily and this doesn't look that well balanced (but I've already considered this option, too :-) )
10:22:19  <peter1138>
10:22:47  <peter1138> i guess you have a specific rim in mind though
10:25:12  <Alkel_U3> since I'm not able to find any combination of what I ideally want this is probably the best I've seen so far, so thanks
10:25:38  <peter1138> if you go back to the category there's a few others there
10:26:37  <peter1138> also one with *7* holes
10:26:38  <peter1138> haha
10:29:46  <Alkel_U3> that wold get decimated quickly. MTBs are a suitable and not very impractical type of bike in Prague :-)
10:30:52  <Alkel_U3> this one actually has the combination of rim and hub I want but I probably won't spend so much on it :-)]
10:34:01  <peter1138> also search ebay for dahon wheel 36 spoke
10:34:14  <peter1138> or just 20" wheel
10:36:45  <Alkel_U3> Good idea, I forgot to check prebuilt wheels
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11:00:54  <_dp_> o/
11:01:32  <_dp_> V453000, nice tree, reminded me of
11:01:55  <V453000> haha
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11:07:22  <_dp_> might not be a bad idea to turn some magic staffs back into trees actually xD
11:12:38  <andythenorth> hmm
11:12:53  <andythenorth> maybe I can close 50 more FS tasks, based on date opened
11:13:05  <andythenorth> “admin"
11:19:18  <V453000> XD
11:19:27  <V453000> who will it summon?
11:20:07  <andythenorth> dunno :)
11:21:08  <andythenorth> 118 of them eh
11:27:47  <Wolf01> Mass close them
11:31:31  <Wolf01> <- close? Or implement
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11:37:35  <andythenorth> does it not completely spank performance?
11:37:48  * andythenorth would expect serious FAIL with that patch
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11:40:05  <_dp_> andythenorth, isn't it the same as dragging map window to full screen size?
11:40:12  <_dp_> andythenorth, performance-wise
11:40:30  <andythenorth> dunno
11:40:50  <andythenorth> that is a shitload of things to try and draw
11:41:52  <andythenorth> Wolf01: did you test the patch?
11:41:59  <Wolf01> Nope
11:44:05  <peter1138> have we got infinite size maps yet?
11:44:53  <andythenorth> peter1138 FS 4947 - daft?
11:45:00  <andythenorth> we already have performance issues
11:45:08  <andythenorth> and we have giant maps
11:45:15  <peter1138> there's a patch isn't there?
11:45:16  <andythenorth> and we have a bunch of bug reports about 4k screens
11:45:28  <peter1138> yeah it links to it, MJP's zoom out
11:45:29  <andythenorth> 128x zoom out on a 4k screen
11:45:38  <andythenorth> on a 4096x4096 map
11:45:43  <andythenorth> with 5k trains
11:45:44  <peter1138> so?
11:45:55  <andythenorth> bug reports that it’s slow?
11:46:09  <FLHerne> Well, it looks like it drops back to a minimap level of detail
11:46:11  <peter1138> solvable.
11:46:15  <peter1138> yes
11:46:25  <peter1138> also don't draw vehicles beyond a certain level, etc, etc
11:46:25  <FLHerne> So no newgrf sprite lookups or animations or any of that nonsense
11:46:43  * peter1138 wanders for lunch
11:46:48  <andythenorth> fix :P
11:47:11  <FLHerne> Aargh, I just called realismfeatures 'nonsense'. You're infecting my minds. :-/
11:47:13  <peter1138> it was bollocks
11:48:39  <peter1138> i should just make a debian 9 vm on windows
11:48:48  <peter1138> then i can dev on ottd again
11:49:03  <peter1138> windows is too painful :p
11:49:08  <peter1138> but games
11:50:03  <andythenorth> le sigh
11:50:46  <Celestar> Windows is a good gaming platform
11:50:57  <Celestar> too bad it's completely useless for anything else.
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11:52:59  * andythenorth lives on an OS that’s not actually good at anything
11:53:57  <_dp_> andythenorth, I heard it's good for video editing
11:54:16  <andythenorth> nah
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12:00:45  <V453000> XD
12:03:56  * andythenorth misses Mac OS 8
12:04:07  <andythenorth> it sometimes went nearly a whole hour before crashing hard
12:06:26  *** supermop_home_ has joined #openttd
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12:17:44  <FLHerne> Yay, I remember that
12:18:50  <FLHerne> On the other hand, avoiding the need for any sort of Linux bootloader was a convenient feature
12:19:15  <FLHerne> Just start the kernel from a MacOS application, overwrite the OS in memory, carry on...
12:21:58  <andythenorth> ha
12:24:17  <ST2> that moment you make google costumers active:
12:24:17  <ST2> [13:17:24] <~ST2> !say Trivia of the day: Who was the 1st female locopilot (train driver) of the Indian Railways?
12:24:18  <ST2> [13:18:18] <+ttd-srv1> BladiN (Spectator): Surekha Yadav
12:24:18  <ST2> [13:18:43] <~ST2> !say and BladiN won the cake: Surekha Yadav is correct ;)
12:24:18  <ST2> [13:18:48] <+ttd-srv1> BladiN (Spectator): woho
12:24:19  <ST2> xD
12:33:03  <Flygon> <Celestar> too bad it's completely useless for anything else.
12:33:07  <Flygon> As an artist, it's good for art. :V
12:33:20  <Flygon> While also catering for needs OSX doesn't do. :VVV
12:33:33  <Celestar> As a dev, it's completely shit.
12:34:25  <Flygon> Hell, Paint Tool SAI doesn't even support OSX.
12:34:34  <Flygon> (A shame it's not cross-platform. Japanese dev. =/_
12:34:36  <Flygon> )
12:34:54  *** supermop_home_ has quit IRC
12:35:27  <Flygon> (On the other hand the 32-bit Paint Tool SAIs officially support Windows 98. This's a modern art application that's still extremely widely used, and updated.)
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12:38:47  <andythenorth> "Fully support Intel MMX Technology"
12:38:50  <andythenorth> :)
12:39:08  <Flygon> Very Japanese dev.
12:48:16  <Alkel_U3> uh, 32-bit SAI once stung me by being 32bit. 10000×8000 canvas with many layers is best left to 64bit programs
12:49:19  <Alkel_U3> I could save the file but I had to start by merging the tiniest layers first as it didn't even have enough memory to merge the fuller ones
12:50:54  <Alkel_U3> I'd still like to use it on linux but wine doesn't hand its applications pressure and such from tablets :/
13:01:39  <Flygon> Hahaha yeah.
13:01:51  <Flygon> I can't wait for the 64-bit version to be prim and proper.
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13:02:07  <Flygon> I haven't hit the RAM limit for a while for... erm, a rather stupid reason.
13:02:15  <Flygon> SAI is an amazing pixel art editor with the binary brush.
13:04:59  <Alkel_U3> I bought Aseprite for pixelart, it's quite good IMHO
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13:06:23  <Flygon> Ahh, I purchased it then... never used it for some reason.
13:09:03  <Flygon> Does Aseprite actually support limiting RGB adjustments to certain ranges?
13:09:53  <Alkel_U3> I know a guy who's been doing digital painting in GIMP for years and refuses to switch to anything more sane for being used to it. Might be similar reason :-)
13:10:13  <Alkel_U3> I'm not sure what that means precisely
13:10:33  <Flygon> It'd be useful to have a mode where you don't have an overall palette.
13:10:40  <Flygon> But the RGB steps are limited to certain places.
13:10:57  <Flygon> For example, with the Mega Drive hardware's RGB DAC operating the way it is, it's actually non-linear.
13:11:42  <Flygon> So, with shadow/highlight mode turned off (which adds a layer of weirdness to the analog output - the S/H process is 100% analog), the RGB steps go in terms of 0, 52, 87, 116, 144, 172, 206, 255
13:12:08  <Flygon> Now, it's nice and all I memorized the non-linear input, but it's a pain in the ass to type in or manually slide the colour adjuster to those exact numbers hahaha.
13:13:01  <Alkel_U3> well, it does have a shading tool where you can specify exact indexes for steps
13:13:21  <Alkel_U3>
13:14:03  <Flygon> Heheh.
13:14:10  <Flygon> Yeah, that's closeish, but not quite.
13:14:52  <Flygon> So far, my best bet has been doing the colours in SAI, using the (inaccurate) 36 step method, simply due to being easier to input the colours for.
13:15:04  <Flygon> And hoping the non-linear distortion by the actual DAC doesn't look too off.
13:16:39  <Wolf01> I tried to use but I'm not good at pixel art :P
13:18:35  <Flygon> aaa those example arts bother me hahaha.
13:18:45  <Flygon> They look way too 'pixel arty'. :D
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13:23:57  <Alkel_U3> I also used to use i.Mage for my first TTD pixelart attempts about 10 years ago but when I came back to it recently I couldn't comprehend how I used to be able to control it efficiently :-)
13:26:09  <Alkel_U3> also in the pixelart studio's gallery there are apparently people who like giving others epileptic seizures
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13:26:50  <Wolf01> Mmmh, must reboot
13:26:53  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
13:27:11  <Flygon> That 'Cool Laser Gun :P' looks like it's... uhm...
13:27:13  <Flygon> ...
13:27:17  <Flygon> Spiderman's webslinger.
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13:30:37  <Alkel_U3> I'd rather think GTA2's electrogun
13:34:03  <Flygon> I mean the way it shoots.
13:34:17  <Flygon> It's like a viscousious fluid.
13:34:41  <Alkel_U3> oh yeah, sure
13:37:19  <Flygon> Yeah, we're on the same page now. Hahaha.
13:37:36  <Flygon> Maybe I should just send the Aseprite guys an email.
13:50:10  *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
13:50:34  <Alberth> o/
13:50:45  <frosch123> hoi
13:51:30  <Wolf01> Quak
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13:55:16  <andythenorth> hi frosch123
13:55:17  <andythenorth> early
13:56:35  <frosch123> i cleaned up my mailbox
13:58:33  <V453000> was there spam about fs tasks ?:P
13:59:09  <Alberth> nah, it was all good news, everything is done :)
13:59:15  <frosch123> i'll likely ignore the pm requests and just consider fs broken wrt that
13:59:56  <frosch123> anyway, i started a new todo list, it already has 25 items ...
14:00:05  <V453000> XD
14:00:27  <ST2> 25 items ...?! that's rookie numbers xD
14:00:45  <frosch123> well, the old one had 150?
14:00:56  <ST2> oh ^^
14:01:02  <andythenorth> ha
14:01:03  <frosch123> i only added recent stuff
14:01:08  <ST2> ok, give my words back :D
14:01:26  <Alberth> perhaps let andy loose on the list :p
14:01:59  <Alberth> ie hand it to andy, likely it gets reduced to 1/4th :)
14:02:05  <andythenorth> 1/2
14:02:24  <andythenorth> I emailed James1101 and asked him if he ever joins irc
14:02:25  *** Flygon has quit IRC
14:02:36  <andythenorth> he has filed a few quite detailed reports / diagnoses
14:02:54  <andythenorth> there are a few other people who might be good contributors
14:03:02  <andythenorth> FS has been dying on its arse for a couple of years
14:03:35  <andythenorth> it’s all Alberth or frosch123, except when peter1138 took a run at it
14:03:36  <Wolf01> <frosch123> anyway, i started a new todo list, it already has 25 items ... <- want another one?
14:03:56  <andythenorth> noticeably 4 years ago, there’s a lot more r*bidium, Z*u, michi etc
14:04:10  <andythenorth> and a bit before that, hirund*, yex* etc
14:04:11  <Alberth> yep, RB closed loads of them
14:04:32  <frosch123> Wolf01: another list? :p
14:04:44  <Wolf01> I have that singleton patch to review
14:04:52  <andythenorth> a lot of good comes from having more people test patches, and try to repro bugs
14:04:57  <andythenorth> even if they don’t have commit rights
14:05:16  <andythenorth> there are a few people like adf88 who post on FS a lot, but have no channel back to here
14:05:17  <peter1138> that bugs me with newgrf patches
14:05:27  <peter1138> newgrf authors don't test them
14:05:42  <andythenorth> I get the ponies I want done by providing test newgrfs
14:05:47  <andythenorth> otherwise…not happening
14:06:02  <andythenorth> I also used to do the docs updates, until I got banned from the wiki
14:06:02  <peter1138> sometimes you get a "test" newgrf
14:06:26  <Alberth> andy: also because you discuss things at first, and make it work for everybody
14:06:36  <peter1138> but no explanation of what to test, or what result is wrong, or what the expected result it
14:06:39  <peter1138> *is
14:07:02  <Alberth> which works much better than a random patch that some one wrote without checking if it's needed or desired
14:07:09  <andythenorth> I want to burn the ‘suggestions frequently asked for’ in forums, and replace
14:07:19  <andythenorth> also change the pinned topics in dev forum
14:07:31  * andythenorth so many projects :P
14:07:34  <andythenorth> I need a to-do list
14:07:39  <Alberth> :)
14:07:45  <Alberth> maybe an issue tracker :p
14:07:47  <andythenorth> maybe
14:07:50  <frosch123> andy as forum moderator sounds dangerous :p
14:07:57  <andythenorth> I am not wanting to be a mod
14:08:04  <andythenorth> same reason as I don’t want commit rights
14:08:11  <supermop_> OpenAndyDelux
14:08:12  <andythenorth> it scares me enough that I am admin on devzone
14:08:23  <andythenorth> is that thread locked yet supermop_ ?
14:08:28  <andythenorth> before any shit drama happens
14:08:34  <andythenorth> who is forum mod?
14:08:45  <frosch123> pm
14:08:51  <supermop_> andythenorth: i know many friends who are now registered architects in New York who have declined to order their stamp
14:09:10  <supermop_> because they have no interest in having people ask them to stamp drawings
14:09:26  <supermop_> not worth the headache and liability
14:09:54  <andythenorth> oh peter1138 is also mod :P
14:10:42  <supermop_> they also don't include RA or AIA after their name, best to keep it discrete lest someone ask you to take professional responsibility for some pet project
14:11:03  <peter1138> yeah
14:11:33  <andythenorth> peter1138: SimYouLater posted a long rambling odd post, and I think he has mental health issues
14:11:42  <andythenorth> usually I’d say let the drama flow, but not in this case
14:12:15  <andythenorth> me and MB were also joint recipients of some related PMs
14:12:36  <andythenorth> probably best just locked :P
14:13:15  <peter1138> nah
14:13:17  <peter1138> tl;dr
14:13:20  <peter1138> nobody is going to read it :p
14:18:28  <Alberth> indeed :)
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14:21:07  <Wolf01> I read it along with the whole thread... and now I'm regretting it
14:22:23  <frosch123> sounds like i should not regret to not have read forums in 3 weeks :p
14:22:28  <frosch123> maybe 4 even
14:23:22  <supermop_> but how will you see my new trams?
14:23:50  <frosch123> you post them here all the time
14:24:05  <supermop_>
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14:25:40  <frosch123> ok, i did not see the trucks yet
14:27:04  <frosch123> so andy no longer has a monopoly on truck grfs
14:28:02  <andythenorth> eh george has them too :)
14:28:05  <andythenorth> and Zeph
14:28:46  <V453000>  /me planned to do them at some point
14:28:48  <frosch123> george's are ancient, and zeph is a bus person iirc
14:28:51  <V453000>  /doesn't anymore :D
14:32:37  <Alberth> yeti flat wagon will work as bus too
14:36:44  <frosch123> isn't that more like a rallye car?
14:38:17  <andythenorth> so how does our github repo actually work then?
14:42:52  <supermop_> i think i wil remove road trains
14:42:55  <supermop_> too stupid
14:43:02  <FLHerne> frosch123: eGRVTS has a lot of trucks
14:43:09  <supermop_> compete with regular trains
14:43:19  <supermop_> clutter the menu
14:44:00  <supermop_> as i have a road train for every type
14:44:36  <supermop_> yeah triples of regular box trailers exist but they feel odd in game
14:44:41  <andythenorth> supermop_: I quite liked them
14:44:48  <andythenorth> but they need a specific roster :P
14:45:02  <supermop_> but arbitrarily saying only mineral trucks get road trains is also stupid
14:45:05  <frosch123> FLHerne: egrvts is meh
14:45:07  <andythenorth> in a generic, balanced roster, they’re way our of place
14:45:13  <frosch123> (pure subjective answer)
14:45:16  <supermop_> specific roster?
14:45:22  <andythenorth> well you only have one :)
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14:45:34  <andythenorth> rosters are a great tool for set design
14:45:39  <FLHerne> frosch123: Agreed, that was a response to "and zeph is a bus person iirc"
14:45:45  <andythenorth> even if you never implement them, you can design them on paper :)
14:45:57  <andythenorth> it lets you put good ideas to one side because they just don’t fit
14:46:04  <supermop_> i do think the shades of variations between rigid trucks, semis, and road trains needs more work
14:46:12  <andythenorth> I concluded ‘trucks’
14:46:17  <andythenorth> just one type
14:46:28  <andythenorth> balancing different types is a fool’s errand
14:46:29  <andythenorth> not even fun
14:46:38  <FLHerne> It's rather like "OpenGFX++", but I don't like OGFX vehicle styling :P
14:46:43  <andythenorth> if you want road trains, add a dedicated road type for them
14:46:44  <supermop_> rather than the more realistic approach i have now which is, 'this is basically the same truck with slightly more hp, and two more trailers'
14:46:55  <andythenorth> the choices in OpenTTD are about type of route you build
14:47:01  <supermop_> FLHerne: opengfx++ was my design goal
14:47:14  <andythenorth> *everyone* who is making ‘choose your optimal vehicle’ sets is…wrong
14:47:27  <andythenorth> choose the type of route, then pick the vehicle that looks nicest
14:47:44  <supermop_> original goals were 'add trolley buses to opengfx+'  as proof of concept
14:47:59  <supermop_> and 'maybe make the opengfx+ trams a bit better'
14:48:24  <supermop_> i feel like i am closing in on that goal, but i accidentally added like 100 trucks in the process
14:48:49  <andythenorth> ha ha
14:49:09  <andythenorth> I set out to add industries to justify nodwells in HEQS
14:49:12  <andythenorth> now look
14:49:51  <supermop_> style aside, i like the concept of opengfx+ a lot: the vanilla vehicles with just a tad more maturity
14:50:11  <supermop_> but i always wanted just a bit more
14:50:34  *** debdog has joined #openttd
14:50:34  <supermop_> in the meantime IH became my opengfx+ trains,
14:51:00  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27897 /trunk (4 files in 2 dirs) (2017-08-24 16:50:55 +0200 )
14:51:01  <DorpsGek> -Add [FS#6577]: Project file generator for kdevelop 4/5 (adf88)
14:51:04  <andythenorth> :)
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14:51:25  <peter1138> zomg
14:51:45  <andythenorth> commits
14:51:53  <andythenorth> also...nodwells…
14:52:10  <supermop_> and RH would be my opengfx+ RVs, except NRT made me curious about electric trucks and diesel trams
14:52:27  <supermop_> which were out of scope for RH, so i had to make my own Opengfx++
14:52:33  <andythenorth> circularity
14:52:42  <andythenorth> FIRS was invented to give the nodwells something to do
14:52:48  <andythenorth> but I never added the nodwells to HEQS
14:52:53  <andythenorth> now they only exist in FIRS :P
14:52:58  <andythenorth> just one
14:53:26  <andythenorth> supermop_: electric trucks aren’t out of scope for RH :)
14:53:40  <andythenorth> I wanted someone else to test them out first
14:53:44  * andythenorth prefers to steal
14:53:54  <supermop_> andythenorth: i wanted them now
14:54:45  <andythenorth> fair ;)
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15:13:19  <Wolf01> I'm bored, and I don't want to do anything :(
15:14:28  <andythenorth> youtube
15:14:34  <andythenorth> youtube + exercise bike
15:14:36  <andythenorth> winning combo
15:14:48  <andythenorth> after 2kms you’re bored of both, and want to do something
15:14:51  <Wolf01> I'm already on netflix, and no space for exercise bike or anything else
15:19:21  *** debdog has quit IRC
15:24:06  <Alkel_U3> real bike, then?
15:25:38  <andythenorth> outside? :o
15:26:34  *** debdog has joined #openttd
15:33:02  <peter1138> outdoors + real bike
15:33:10  <peter1138> works for me
15:33:27  <peter1138> 200km without getting bored :p
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15:35:16  <crem> 200km is a lot of YouTube videos..
15:35:53  <Alkel_U3> with the advent of 20h loops it could be just one
15:36:53  <Alkel_U3> like
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15:37:51  <Alkel_U3> although if the intention was to actually >watch< the video, it might be more mercifull to just shoot self :-)
15:42:04  <Wolf01> I don't like to do things alone, I get bored before even starting
15:42:43  <frosch123> too early for ginger beer?
15:43:24  * frosch123 should not advocate drinking probably
15:43:35  <ST2> it's always time for beer... at least somewhere in the world xD
15:44:27  <andythenorth> it’s time for beer or margaritas
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15:52:05  <Wolf01> <frosch123> too early for ginger beer? <- ginger *ale, the pub is closed for holiday
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15:55:50  <peter1138> eh, ginger beer is a fizzy soft drink
15:56:31  <andythenorth> what is it for ?
15:56:45  <frosch123> i have no idea about the difference between beer and ale
15:57:31  <peter1138> ginger ale is also a slightly fizzy drink, usually used a mixer for cheap whisky or such like
15:58:00  <peter1138> neither resemble beer or ale
15:58:25  <Alkel_U3> well, "ale" is usually a more bitter style of beer
15:59:18  <Alkel_U3> not very common or traditional around here, I discovered that it's a thing only about 5 years ago
16:00:50  <frosch123> wiki lists 22 types of making beer
16:02:03  <Alkel_U3> yeah, gotta drink them all :-)
16:03:00  <frosch123> i heard like 9 of them, though 3 of them i considered the same :p
16:05:03  <andythenorth> @seen adf88
16:05:03  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: adf88 was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 2 days, 18 hours, 33 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <adf88> we are in a middle of a coup, interesting times... ;/
16:05:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: adf usually joins .dev
16:05:26  <frosch123> he's the only one to use that channel though :p
16:05:32  <andythenorth> I stopped joing .dev
16:05:35  <andythenorth> tumbleweed
16:05:38  <andythenorth> also coop
16:05:49  <andythenorth> I used to enjoy coop
16:06:19  <frosch123> yeah, noone around anymore
16:07:24  <andythenorth> it was like the back channel on the back channel
16:07:31  <andythenorth> is #tycoon still a thing?
16:07:35  *** supermop has quit IRC
16:07:36  <andythenorth> or whatever the other place was
16:07:46  <frosch123> no, i think this is the only place left
16:08:03  <andythenorth> coop died when Ammler and planetmaker stopped posting much there :)
16:08:17  <planetmaker> yeah... kinda :|
16:08:19  <andythenorth> (the channel, not coop as a concept)
16:10:10  <supermop_> #tycoon is mostly just my home laptop joining and quitting
16:12:25  <supermop_> andythenorth: ginger beer is for making dark and stormies, or moscow mules, etc
16:13:06  <supermop_> ginger ale is more commonly consumed on its own or sometimes as a mixer, it is less strong in ginger flavor
16:13:14  * andythenorth biab
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16:13:39  <supermop_> ginger beer is somewhat 'spicy' due to being so gingery
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16:41:23  <LordAro> supermop_: speaking of, you should get a bouncer
16:41:46  <V453000> I will bounce on you all night
16:41:46  <supermop_> ha
16:41:49  <V453000> just for 
16:42:36  <supermop_> i could just turn my laptop off when i am not home
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16:43:48  <andythenorth> what does it all mean? o_O
16:46:00  <frosch123> LordAro: a bouncer is a grave
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16:46:26  <LordAro> frosch123: not if you put it on a server you actually maintain
16:46:32  <LordAro> or a server *someone* maintains
16:47:22  <frosch123> i just go by what is common here :p
16:47:44  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
16:50:36  <supermop_> ok go to korea and japan for two weeks on saturday
16:50:48  <supermop_> should i 'release' RVs before then?
16:51:20  <andythenorth> do an RC :P
16:51:23  <supermop_> wont have other tram styles drawn before then but i could fix running costs and smoke effects
16:51:23  <andythenorth> or a beta
16:51:51  <andythenorth> frosch123: so can I stop typing yex* and just let my autocomplete bother his bouncer? :)
16:51:51  <supermop_> was thinking last night about parcel trams etc
16:52:10  *** supermop has quit IRC
16:52:39  <supermop_> so andythenorth does RH mean no more heqs style locomotives?
16:53:09  <supermop_> not sure if i should draw little tram dummies or tiny tank engines and shuntrs
16:53:46  <andythenorth> both
16:54:14  <andythenorth> there are source images showing prototypes for all things
16:54:28  <andythenorth> draw what looks good :)
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16:56:12  <_dp_> andythenorth, 6614 is a small improvement that will make it easier to compile openttd in some weird ways :)
16:56:49  <andythenorth> how can it be tested?
16:58:09  <_dp_> good question :)
16:58:24  <_dp_> I have a vague idea how to do that but only on linux
16:58:57  <andythenorth> some projects have a ‘to test’ convention for patches
16:59:08  <andythenorth> with instructions
16:59:20  <frosch123> just apply some prejustice
16:59:57  <frosch123> it's an adf patch, so it probably works, you need to check for style and whether it fits/contradicts existing things
17:00:00  <_dp_> andythenorth, in this case I guess it would be 'to test setup this weird cross-compiling environment"
17:00:49  <andythenorth> hmm
17:00:59  * andythenorth won’t do that then
17:01:08  <andythenorth> Wolf01: NoTrees spec draft? o_O
17:01:29  <Wolf01> Why not?
17:01:36  <_dp_> andythenorth, though you can test that it doesn't break anything for compiling in normal environments :)
17:01:57  <andythenorth> I’d need a normal environment for that :)
17:02:06  * andythenorth tests
17:02:34  <Wolf01> Meh, I wanted to try that zoom patch, but I'm not going to apply 30 patches
17:02:40  <andythenorth> it’s not clean
17:02:48  <andythenorth> people should fork on github
17:02:52  <Wolf01> Yes
17:03:00  <andythenorth> branches > patches
17:03:37  <frosch123> ottd pushed the idea of mq in the past :)
17:03:47  <andythenorth> that went…well? :)
17:03:51  <Wolf01> BTW, I have that singleton patch on hold which I don't want to commit
17:03:57  <frosch123> for everyone but you iirc
17:04:06  <andythenorth> yeah, that figures :)
17:04:17  <frosch123> "andy and hg" certainly has some dark memories in this channel :p
17:04:46  <andythenorth> it’s ok, once I got used to the ‘save a diff, destroy your repo, re-clone and apply diff’ hg workflow :)
17:05:15  <andythenorth> I have about the same with git and ‘reset —hard’, it just uses less bandwidth :P
17:05:48  <andythenorth> so where are the tree algorithms
17:05:56  <andythenorth> landscape.cpp?
17:06:44  <Wolf01> tree_cmd.cpp
17:08:11  <andythenorth> 6614 builds ok on OS X btw
17:08:24  <andythenorth> for vanilla compile
17:09:02  <andythenorth> Wolf01: ok so CanPlantTreesOnTile() <- move to newgrf cb
17:09:18  <Wolf01> Yes
17:09:24  <andythenorth> GetRandomTreeType() <- move to newgrf cb
17:09:45  <andythenorth> PlaceTree() can’t tell what that does yet
17:09:53  <frosch123> make a profile how often it is caleld
17:10:08  <andythenorth> that’s like saying ‘andythenorth fly a rocket to the moon’ :)
17:10:10  <andythenorth> I could
17:10:13  <andythenorth> but it’s a moon shot
17:10:16  <andythenorth> might take time :P
17:10:46  <andythenorth> PlaceTreeGroups() can’t see why newgrf would need to control that
17:12:00  <andythenorth> hmm, does newgrf need to know what’s building the tree?
17:12:10  <andythenorth> player / map gen / tile loop / SE
17:12:17  <frosch123> company coloured trees? :p
17:12:26  <andythenorth> is there an owner bit?
17:12:30  <Wolf01> PlaceTreeGroups just calls PlaceTree for an area
17:12:58  <andythenorth> does newgrf get to refuse ClearTile_Trees() ?
17:13:02  <andythenorth> protected trees?
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17:13:33  <Wolf01> Mmmh
17:13:45  * andythenorth thinks that can be in NoTrees 2
17:13:49  <andythenorth> not 1
17:13:52  <frosch123> i am sure the transmitter-haters will love indestructible trees
17:13:59  <andythenorth> awesome eh?
17:14:12  <andythenorth> how does the lumber mill interact with indestructible trees? o_O
17:14:39  <andythenorth> perhaps indestructible trees is…not needed :)
17:14:44  <andythenorth> hmm
17:14:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: they bribe the authority
17:14:57  <andythenorth> :P
17:15:10  <andythenorth> I can’t think of a way to have newgrf plant the trees near a lumber mill, if any
17:15:35  <andythenorth> it seems like in the tile loop, the newgrf should be able to count lumber mills, and choose to plant the tree(s) near them if > 0
17:15:43  <andythenorth> but I don’t think it works
17:16:07  <andythenorth> hmm, TileLoopTreesAlps() and so on
17:16:11  <andythenorth> bit specialist
17:16:57  <andythenorth> so the key thing for NoTrees: can the newgrf influence which tiles are selected for planting trees during gameplay?
17:17:10  <andythenorth> or is it only able to say yes / no to tiles presented by OpenTTD in the tileloop
17:18:01  <frosch123> what is your actual goal?
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17:18:43  <andythenorth> well
17:18:50  <andythenorth> we had a nice name
17:18:53  <andythenorth> NotTrees
17:18:59  <andythenorth> or better, NoTrees
17:19:04  <andythenorth> kind of started from there
17:19:33  <Eddi|zuHause> gotta start with a good name. almost half the work done.
17:20:11  <frosch123> invent some new noise functions for multi-dimensional desert/tropic-like areas
17:20:33  <frosch123> add variables for height and landscape-zone, and make it nolandscape
17:20:45  <frosch123> just don't add any states
17:21:14  <andythenorth> more seriously
17:21:17  <frosch123> only pseudo-random variables, and global animation-status with possibly pseudo-random offset
17:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and snow+desert on the same map.
17:21:25  <andythenorth> - move all trees to newgrf
17:21:29  <andythenorth> - both appearance and control
17:21:36  <andythenorth> - one less map gen setting
17:21:58  <andythenorth> - people *will* make grfs, look at all the station sets, despite nfo station spec being awful
17:22:13  <andythenorth> - less code, especially less ‘two options’ code
17:22:40  <andythenorth> - more control, over e.g. ‘tree line in arctic’ type stuff
17:22:52  <andythenorth> - also un-break tropic :P
17:22:57  <frosch123> maybe we can get V to make higher-variety landscape sprites
17:23:10  <frosch123> and maybe we can also get him to steal the mapgen from F :p
17:23:11  <andythenorth> a tree spec would get abused
17:23:22  <andythenorth> people would use it to randomly place sprites from newobjects
17:23:26  <andythenorth> but eh, so what?
17:23:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that was the entire point, something like newobjects, but more automatic randomness
17:24:16  <andythenorth> well yes
17:24:24  <andythenorth> but let’s just spec it to replace trees
17:24:39  <andythenorth> designing for emergent behaviour, not necessary :)
17:24:42  <andythenorth> will happen anyway
17:24:44  <frosch123> andythenorth: also figure out how to mark areas as tree-active
17:24:51  <andythenorth> o_O ?
17:25:03  <frosch123> no need to simulate tree growth/dieing in areas no player ever touched
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17:25:25  <frosch123> instead keep track of areas where players bulldoze, and make plants re-takeover them
17:26:02  <andythenorth> oh there’s tree die-off and growth eh
17:26:04  * andythenorth forgot that
17:26:12  <andythenorth> on anything except small maps, that’s overkill :)
17:26:30  <Eddi|zuHause> keep a balance between growth/death of trees, but also regenerate areas that are cleared
17:26:37  <frosch123> it's one of those things which likely no modern game does
17:26:54  <andythenorth> wrong level of detail
17:26:57  <frosch123> too much stateful-stuff
17:27:01  <andythenorth> could be simulated with animation :P
17:27:10  <andythenorth> on a random trigger and long frame loop
17:27:23  <Eddi|zuHause> citie skylines is fun, it remembers the trees when you build over them, and restores them if you destroy it
17:27:54  <frosch123> are you sure it "remembers" them?
17:28:08  <frosch123> or does it rather create them folowing the same random seed
17:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it also restores manually placed trees
17:28:58  <andythenorth> what’s the view on moving core functionality to openttd.grf or similar?
17:29:12  <andythenorth> so that the game ships with stuff provide, but not in c++
17:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: openttd.grf is not a newgrf
17:29:16  <andythenorth> ok
17:29:28  <andythenorth> provided *
17:30:17  <andythenorth> vanilla.grf
17:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that's like an oxymoron :p
17:30:55  <andythenorth> can’t move default industries to external grf :P
17:31:03  * andythenorth thinking out loud
17:31:15  <andythenorth> newgrfs often depend on default industries in core
17:32:32  <frosch123> i think that's the same in most modded games
17:32:52  <frosch123> just because you play bob's mods in f, you do not disable the base set
17:33:12  <frosch123> at least it was like that the single time i dared to look what those mods were about
17:33:17  <frosch123> before i ran away screaming
17:33:32  <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
17:33:43  <andythenorth> it’s probably the wrong target also :)
17:33:55  * andythenorth would rather target dumb stuff, like how many signal types we have :)
17:34:24  <frosch123> (for context, "bob's mods" is like "firs extreme extreme")
17:34:43  <andythenorth> I see :)
17:35:32  <andythenorth> how do I test segfaults?
17:35:41  <frosch123> i am sure i told the channel about the water -> salt, salt + water -> saltwater, saltwater->electrolysis-products chain
17:35:54  <andythenorth> FIRS needs that level of detail
17:36:12  <Alberth> :p
17:36:47  <andythenorth> is there a ‘try to segfault’ button somewhere? :P
17:36:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: you reproduce it, and give precise steps and possibly a stack-backtrace including parameter values
17:36:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: alt+0
17:37:06  <frosch123> or was that removed?
17:37:32  <frosch123> you can also use the console: killall -6 openttd
17:37:35  <Alkel_U3> I just tried sharing my beer by pouring it into the keyboard, did any get through?
17:37:37  <Alberth> not that I ever heard, but never tried it either
17:37:41  <andythenorth> at work we built an app with a segfault button in it
17:37:46  <andythenorth> but it wasn’t useful
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17:40:50  <supermop_> andythenorth: i was think last night about that sort or concept - of moving various 'world' things to newgrf
17:41:02  <supermop_> like the means to generate towns
17:41:15  <andythenorth> yes
17:41:17  <supermop_> where they go, which are cities, etc
17:41:22  <andythenorth> some kind of town or economy script
17:41:35  <andythenorth> like TownControl, or GS :P
17:41:36  <andythenorth> but
17:41:48  <frosch123> yexo once had a squirrel-mapgen
17:41:53  <supermop_> if it was in newgrf you could have arbitrarily many different ways to spawn towns without having to patch game
17:41:54  <frosch123> it took ages though
17:42:32  <supermop_> currently if you don't like the way the game places towns, there really isn't anything to do about it
17:42:32  <andythenorth> GS or similar seems like a bad way to do it
17:42:36  <andythenorth> no callbacks
17:42:44  <andythenorth> but newgrf…might be horrible :P
17:43:01  <andythenorth> but I can place industries pretty well
17:43:04  <frosch123> gs are for active things, newgrf for reactive
17:43:07  <frosch123> or something
17:43:35  <supermop_> maybe you want them kind of close to water, or maybe you want the cities to have exactly 8 small towns surrounding them for some kind of MP style, idk
17:44:14  <supermop_> maybe its neither newgrf nor gs, but something, whatever it is that you download from bananas and chose at will
17:44:21  <andythenorth> GS is for goals
17:44:29  <andythenorth> in practical application so far
17:44:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: there is a build-roads-gs
17:45:02  <andythenorth> is there?
17:45:11  <andythenorth> I just use pikka’s annoying AI for that :)
17:45:11  <supermop_> believe so
17:45:11  <frosch123> by pikka even?
17:45:22  <frosch123> hmm, was it just an ai?
17:45:44  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27898 trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt (2017-08-24 19:45:40 +0200 )
17:45:45  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> dutch: 18 changes by habell
17:45:56  <andythenorth> CivilAI
17:45:58  <andythenorth> roads and buses
17:46:04  <andythenorth> grows towns, blocks my train stations
17:46:09  * andythenorth has it in most games
17:46:23  <supermop_> andythenorth: realistic
17:46:46  <andythenorth> such
17:47:03  <supermop_> just like the old railroad day - have to race to build your terminals before the city gets too big for them to fit
17:47:06  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> i am sure i told the channel about the water -> salt, salt + water -> saltwater, saltwater->electrolysis-products chain <-- that sounds almost like the guys who buy pink flamingos and paint them blue, and the other guys who buy blue flamingos and paint them pink
17:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i totally forgot where that was from, though
17:47:45  <frosch123> sounds like gender studies
17:47:52  <andythenorth> ham: 1 month out of date.  Fine?
17:48:27  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if that involves them changing after a certain date, it’s a philosophy problem
17:48:29  <andythenorth> :P
17:48:31  <frosch123> depends whether it was already 1 month out of date when it was repackaged :p
17:50:15  <andythenorth> probably not
17:50:37  <andythenorth> tasted fine
17:50:46  <andythenorth> so NoTrees
17:50:51  <andythenorth> NoTowns
17:50:54  <andythenorth> NoEconomy
17:51:03  <andythenorth> NoSignals
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17:51:14  <Alberth> no supermop
17:51:31  <andythenorth> NoLandscape (terrain geneator) is appealing, but might be too slow if not in core
17:51:34  <andythenorth> ??
17:52:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: only goal servers would be interested in noeconomy, and they complani that newgrf are too complicated for their users
17:52:04  <Alberth> make it configururable
17:52:19  <andythenorth> frosch123: I know but we could delete smooth economy :D
17:52:28  <andythenorth> also I would use it to control base industry production level
17:52:42  <Alberth> ie it's not only "all c++" or "all squirrel script", you can also do some at either side
17:52:44  <andythenorth> which I can do in FIRS as a parameter setting for players, but not very interestingly
17:53:09  <andythenorth> I wondered about NoDays
17:53:12  <frosch123> i think on the todo list which i had before the 150-items one, there was an item to implement smooth economy as newgrf and then removing it from the base game
17:53:12  <Alberth> *both sides, probably
17:53:23  <andythenorth> frosch123: I am +1 to that :P
17:53:26  <Eddi|zuHause> notimetables
17:53:30  <Eddi|zuHause> noreplace
17:53:41  <frosch123> i only came around to remove the "original vehicle names" language
17:53:48  <Eddi|zuHause> noundergroundlevels
17:54:00  <andythenorth> NoDays -> find all the places ticks might want to be changed, define them as constants via newgrf
17:54:01  <Alberth> nopenttd2.0, basically :p
17:54:10  <andythenorth> Alberth: its NooooTTD
17:54:36  <Alberth> fair enough :)
17:54:43  <andythenorth> from my discussions about daylength, the problem is not “it can’t work ever"
17:54:49  <andythenorth> rather people want different things
17:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:54:58  <andythenorth> one persons bug is another person’s key feature
17:55:03  <andythenorth> more '
17:55:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that is at least half the problem
17:55:16  <andythenorth> let newgrf deal with that :P
17:55:42  <Alberth> having it configurable doesn't mean it will work :p
17:55:48  <Eddi|zuHause> does really not sound like anything newgrf should be involved with
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17:55:56  <andythenorth> plenty of newgrfs don’t work Alberth :D
17:56:00  <Alberth> wb supermop
17:56:14  <supermop_> that one isn't me
17:56:29  <Eddi|zuHause> we have a pretender!
17:56:37  <Alberth> or two supermops
17:56:57  <supermop_> supermop is really supermopzuhause
17:57:14  <supermop_> _ is supermopbeiarbeit?
17:57:33  <supermop_> sometimes. sometimes it's the reverse
17:57:38  <Alberth> zumarbeit, I think
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17:58:54  <frosch123> beiarbeit is better, but aufarbeit is the cool slang
17:59:18  <_dp_> frosch123, my main complaint about newgrfs is that you need them for configuring core mechanics
17:59:38  <_dp_> frosch123, it's fine to have newgrfs that add something substantial like firs
17:59:59  <_dp_> frosch123, but having newgrf just to configure nogrf server is a huge no
18:00:30  <frosch123> tl;dr; the opposite of what andy wants :p
18:01:06  <_dp_> not quite :p
18:01:29  <andythenorth> _dp_: got an alternate vision?
18:01:35  <frosch123> not? andy wanted to move "no tree growth" to newgrf
18:01:44  <andythenorth> as said before, configuring an MP game is so painful
18:01:55  <andythenorth> I would play more 1hr MP goal games…but no
18:02:06  <andythenorth> 45 mins to make a map?  Then Alberth has to go to bed before we finish :)
18:03:39  <Alberth> :)
18:03:40  <_dp_> andythenorth, it doesn't contradict anything. Extensible apis/callbacks/whatever are cool, just keep(move) core settings in(to) core game.
18:04:08  <supermop_> _dp_: trees are already part of core game
18:04:17  <andythenorth> _dp_: which settings?
18:04:23  <supermop_> and there is no way to change them without a patch
18:06:09  <_dp_> andythenorth, basecosts, industry chances, etc.
18:06:32  <_dp_> there is literally no way to modify anything about default industry atm
18:06:48  <_dp_> only replace it in newgrf
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18:08:18  <andythenorth> that would a hellish UI, for industries?
18:08:22  <andythenorth> +be
18:08:40  <_dp_> oh, and btw, when thinking about moddable trees please keep in mind savegame explosion :p
18:08:50  <_dp_> it's kind of a big issue actually
18:08:55  <Wolf01> A what?
18:09:19  <supermop_> _dp_: the vanilla industries don't have anything about them to change?
18:09:22  <_dp_> Wolf01, about 3/4 of savegame size are trees
18:09:34  <andythenorth> well…why? :)
18:09:42  <Alberth> too many tiles :p
18:10:01  <Wolf01> _dp_: moving trees to grf won't touch the savegame
18:10:13  <supermop_> _dp_: that's a good reason to allow better/more sensible tree generation styles, rather than the current uncompressible noise
18:10:49  <peter1138> 4.9.0-3-rt-amd64
18:10:59  <peter1138> so linux
18:11:01  <peter1138> so vim
18:11:06  <peter1138> so openttd dev environment
18:11:09  <peter1138> so what am i going to do?
18:11:21  <Wolf01> Did you try to enable the linux subsystem on windows?
18:11:21  <andythenorth> how many bits in the map for trees?
18:11:23  * andythenorth looks
18:11:33  <peter1138> no
18:11:59  <frosch123> andythenorth: tree data is just random data
18:12:12  <_dp_> supermop_, core has to allow those styles first, if things get moved to newgrf like they are now it will only prevent the issue from even being fixed
18:12:31  <_dp_> *ever
18:12:31  <frosch123> on (stupidly) huge maps, the map array has significant size compared to industry/vehicle/... data
18:13:04  <supermop_> _dp_: trees aren't in newgrf at all now, only just sprite replacement
18:13:04  <frosch123> map array however consists mostly of random data and is thus incompressible
18:13:11  <Wolf01> _dp_: there are already those styles on the core, they need to be moved in grf
18:13:20  <frosch123> solution: remove random bits from trees and make it all pseudo-random
18:13:25  <Wolf01> So they can be changed easily
18:13:36  <peter1138> eww
18:14:03  <_dp_> Wolf01, there is nothing in core, just random noise
18:14:16  <_dp_> so frosch123 is right, it has to be de-randomized
18:14:24  * andythenorth counts bits
18:14:24  <supermop_> what are we talking about?
18:14:29  <Alberth> just remove 2048 as size
18:14:35  <peter1138> ^ +1
18:14:37  <_dp_> andythenorth, it's not about bits, they just don't compress well
18:14:40  <peter1138> stupid sizes
18:14:48  <andythenorth> _dp_: expand? :)
18:14:55  <supermop_> if we have tree placement - random and treeplacement - hilltops only
18:15:00  <supermop_> lets say
18:15:07  <supermop_> in the game
18:15:13  <andythenorth> are trees not deterministic?
18:15:22  <andythenorth> or is it that it is poor for compression?
18:15:23  <supermop_> andythenorth: no, i wish they were
18:15:25  * andythenorth confused
18:15:30  <_dp_> andythenorth, even right now if you change current noise to some reasonable pattern it greatly reduces savegame size
18:15:38  <supermop_> worst for compression is noise
18:15:48  <Alberth> compression uses common patterns, and random noise has no common patterns
18:16:37  <supermop_> _dp_: if we have the vanilla random trees, and then add in the game a 2nd, 3rd, nth pattern for placing trees
18:16:53  <supermop_> how do we pick the n+1th pattern?
18:17:09  <frosch123> supermop_: it's all fine if you make the random data static
18:17:16  * andythenorth would have just used a byte on each tile, and let the newgrf figure it out
18:17:20  <frosch123> i.e. something which you can compute no the fly, or recompute on game-load
18:17:27  <supermop_> what if i make a style for placing trees that only plants trees right in front of player tracks
18:17:33  <andythenorth> put some random bits in the tile
18:17:35  <frosch123> but it cannot be part of the gamestate and change on user-interaction
18:17:38  <supermop_> no one would agree to add that to trunk
18:17:38  <_dp_> supermop_, it's not quite about adding patterns, patterns usually suck when drawn on grid (what essentially happens in game)
18:17:58  <andythenorth> list which tiles have which random bytes :P
18:18:11  <Wolf01> _dp_, frosch123: yes, the algorithm picks a random tree in a specific interval, just to not have the entire map covered with a single type of tree, it's not that random, also the algorithm tries to place similar trees near existing ones to create patches of the same type. The problem is that isn't really so effective, so you don't notice it and it seem random.
18:18:16  <supermop_> so Mop's Tree Style can only be used if i learn to fork the game
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18:18:57  <supermop_> currently the game has 'original' "improved" and "no trees"
18:18:57  <frosch123> supermop_: you can also distinguish between user-built and random trees
18:19:07  <frosch123> like: give trees the full state when they are manually places
18:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: but to fork the game, don't you have to throw an SJW fit first?
18:19:20  <frosch123> but give random trees just "this is a random tree", and do not store more
18:19:20  <Alberth> andy, trees have a life state counter, and they are placed not all at the same time, so they differ. Trees get sprinkled over the map, so you get eventually random life counter states at the same time
18:19:30  <andythenorth> Alberth: that’s unneeded though
18:19:35  <Alberth> *same tile
18:19:40  <supermop_> if we want ' even more improved trees'
18:19:43  <andythenorth> one byte is 255 possible states? o_O
18:19:49  <supermop_> do we add that to the core game?
18:19:55  <Wolf01> <-
18:20:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there should be no shortage of bytes in the map array for trees
18:20:28  <Alberth> 256, but close enough :)
18:20:39  <_dp_> Wolf01, it's not about how random algorithm actually is, what matters is that it's random enough to explode gzip
18:20:42  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: why is it that i have too look up sjw every time it is used, and then remember looking it up the last time?
18:20:59  <andythenorth> eh just put a random byte in the tile then, and let the newgrf provide up to 256 tree layouts
18:21:07  <andythenorth> it can even use more crap, like game month etc
18:21:13  <Wolf01> _dp_: random or filled by meaningful numbers still the same bits
18:21:14  <supermop_> frosch123: because you are fortunate enough to not live in america
18:21:20  <andythenorth> that’ s quite enough variety
18:21:42  <supermop_> Wolf01: your tree patch is exactly what i want
18:21:44  <supermop_> but
18:21:52  <Wolf01> byte var = 0; or byte var = random(); use the same memory
18:21:58  <andythenorth> we can drop m2 3..0 m5 7..6  m5 2..0
18:22:00  <andythenorth> maybe others
18:22:05  <supermop_> it is essentially a stylistic choice
18:22:18  <supermop_> so why force it to be added as a patch
18:22:30  <frosch123> andythenorth: the trick is to not put the random byte into the tile
18:22:35  <_dp_> Wolf01, not after compression
18:22:39  <frosch123> but to make that byte recomputable whenever it is needed
18:22:56  <supermop_> what if i want a different style for some complex cactus ecosystem i add with catus.grf or whatever
18:22:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: we can’t just store 16 lists of tiles? :P
18:22:57  <frosch123> i..e. it can be random, but it cannot depend on game actions
18:23:00  <Wolf01> _dp_: compression can be done with or without moving to grf
18:23:21  <andythenorth> no, andythenorth can’t count :(
18:23:24  <supermop_> like lets say instead of no trees on mountain tops i want only trees on mountain tops
18:23:26  <andythenorth> 256 lists of tiles :P
18:23:34  <andythenorth> can’t we hash it, based on tile location, height?
18:23:38  <andythenorth> or just x,y
18:23:41  <andythenorth> and the map seed?
18:23:54  <andythenorth> pseudo-random
18:23:58  <frosch123> supermop_: that still does not require storing the result
18:24:05  <frosch123> you can recompute that
18:24:13  <andythenorth> if we hash it, we can recompute
18:24:18  <Wolf01> supermop_: yes, it's a stylistic choice, that's why I'm fine with moving it to grf, also because with a grf you can control better which tree you want at a given height, with core I don't know the difference
18:24:18  <frosch123> the only thing you cannot recompute is whether this tile was bulldozed 50 years ago
18:24:25  * andythenorth is having ‘my first programming’ moment :P
18:24:41  <supermop_> so what i suggest is that in addition to the current built in tree placement rules, we allow grf to add rule sets like Wolf01's
18:24:53  <Wolf01> ^
18:25:19  * andythenorth suggests dropping the existing rules, and breaking backwards compatibility, but harmlessly
18:25:22  <andythenorth> no kittens die
18:25:27  <supermop_> and i don't see why that is a problem for _dp_ 's use case
18:25:28  <Wolf01> But we should move everything to grf, not just add
18:25:47  <andythenorth> smaller saves = better MP experience?
18:25:52  <supermop_> because the noisiness of it is independent of it being in trunk or grf
18:26:02  <andythenorth> do we have to transmit all the tree crap during the game, or just when getting map?
18:26:02  <_dp_> supermop_, because instead of having one tree placement that explodes saves you'll have infinite number of those
18:26:27  <_dp_> supermop_, one can at least be fixed
18:26:40  <supermop_> _dp_: if every tree placement style is in trunk, they could get used on your server
18:27:16  <Wolf01> _dp_: I can't understand you
18:27:20  <supermop_> if they are in newgrf, then you can chose not to use noiseyrandomtrees.grf on your server
18:27:33  * andythenorth asumes tree state is synced to all clients, so MP has to transmit state for it?
18:27:43  <supermop_> if noiseyrandomtrees in in trunk you are stuck with it
18:28:00  <andythenorth> nah, we just break backwards compatibility
18:28:01  <Alberth> andy: yes, but on join only
18:28:14  <_dp_> supermop_, what i'm saying is make less noisy way of placing trees first and then make it extensible with newgrfs
18:28:33  <andythenorth> just simplify trees
18:28:36  <Wolf01> _dp_: which is what we are talking about
18:28:40  <andythenorth> all will be fine :)
18:28:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: what if treestate is deterministic so you can recompute it on game load
18:28:52  <frosch123> no need to transmit it then
18:28:53  <andythenorth> yes
18:28:55  <_dp_> supermop_, instead of  extending bad thing and prevent it from even being fixed because of compatibility
18:29:05  <andythenorth> I was hoping it was another reason this is a GOOD BAD FEATURE
18:29:19  <andythenorth> -> more fun for newgrf authors
18:29:22  <andythenorth> -> smaller saves
18:29:24  <Wolf01> Also what if I manually place random trees on the map? One by one
18:29:27  <andythenorth> -> less state transmitted in MP
18:29:28  <peter1138> treestate can never change?
18:29:29  <andythenorth> win
18:29:44  <supermop_> allowing newgrf tree styles doesn't extend the existing bad tree generators
18:29:52  <andythenorth> no they would get rm-ed
18:30:33  <_dp_> Wolf01, it's fine to have huge save in that case since noone even does it
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18:30:49  <Alberth> _dp_: you always have a compatibility problem somewhere if you remove such state
18:30:51  <andythenorth> lo zeta
18:30:54  <Zuu> Hello
18:30:54  <Wolf01> _dp_: not a valid reason
18:30:56  <_dp_> *even->ever
18:31:00  <frosch123> Wolf01: store them in the begining and when the player does not check revert them back to random :p
18:31:03  <supermop_> andythenorth: removing original trees would not prevent you from loading save with original random trees
18:31:08  * andythenorth likes andythenorth’s idea best 
18:31:17  <andythenorth> supermop_: you just send that data to dev/null
18:31:20  <andythenorth> game changed
18:31:24  <andythenorth> [shrug]
18:31:27  <supermop_> just no new random trees would grow
18:31:41  <andythenorth> omelette, eggs :)
18:31:43  <frosch123> they can still grow
18:31:52  <frosch123> just determinstic
18:32:09  <Wolf01> And making a random seed saved on the game, and remove all the randoms? You can get the same trees even if you dynamite the entire map
18:32:12  <frosch123> the tree on tile (1,1) would always match the tree on tile (1263,592)
18:32:37  <andythenorth> seems fine
18:32:50  <Wolf01> You will just have a "plant tree" button, and it places the tree based on that seed
18:32:54  <andythenorth> yes
18:33:05  <andythenorth> how may bits can we delete then? o_O
18:33:08  <peter1138> none
18:33:14  <andythenorth> bah
18:33:39  <Wolf01> Eh, you still need to keep count of trees for every tile
18:33:43  <andythenorth> why?
18:33:49  <Wolf01> ^
18:33:52  <andythenorth> you’ve got 255 random values
18:33:54  <peter1138> so you know how many trees are on a tile
18:34:04  <andythenorth> 256 *
18:34:10  <andythenorth> just generate tree patterns based on that
18:34:13  <andythenorth> it’s enough state
18:34:25  <andythenorth> also got tile height, ground type, game date, blah blah
18:34:35  <peter1138> nah, take that out
18:34:46  <peter1138> generate tile height from the seed
18:35:13  <frosch123> landscape may be slightly rough
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18:35:18  <andythenorth> heh
18:35:28  <andythenorth> NoTerrain can sort that out later :P
18:35:30  <andythenorth> probably not
18:35:36  <Wolf01> The problem is that you can change the tile height by playing
18:35:44  <andythenorth> there is that
18:35:47  <andythenorth> maybe that’s a bug :P
18:35:49  <peter1138> and you can change tree state by playing
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18:36:03  <Wolf01> Yes, but you can remove the randomness and calculate it
18:36:07  <andythenorth> another bug peter1138
18:37:02  <peter1138> pseudo random based on some seed and x and y?
18:37:05  <andythenorth> yes
18:37:11  <peter1138> whenever you change a tree... you always get the same tree
18:37:14  <andythenorth> yes
18:37:28  <peter1138> no temporal changes
18:37:31  <peter1138> seems shitty to me
18:37:31  <andythenorth> if you don’t like, it add a newgrf that fixes it :P
18:38:03  <supermop_> i think i would prefer to be able to see different trees on tile x,y over time
18:38:11  <andythenorth> ok, what would be better, excepting current implementation? o_O
18:38:19  <peter1138> why worry?
18:38:24  <peter1138> what's the problem again?
18:38:26  <Wolf01> seed, x, y, game date
18:38:28  <_dp_> supermop_, add date to hash :p
18:38:35  <andythenorth> peter1138: was newgrf trees
18:38:36  <peter1138> date...
18:38:37  <andythenorth> then it...evolved
18:38:44  <peter1138> every changes every time the date changes
18:38:45  <supermop_> but if that means removing random built in function, and then i have to add a new random genrator back in by newgrf, i would be ok with it
18:38:45  <peter1138> cool
18:39:02  <andythenorth> you know how it goes
18:39:06  <Wolf01> Hypnotic maps
18:39:10  <andythenorth> you set off to Dublin, and end up in Kilmarnock
18:39:26  <Wolf01> Change trees at every tick
18:39:37  <supermop_> i am fine if the built in trees are somewhat boring and non-random
18:40:07  <supermop_> Wolf01: make cellular automata out of trees
18:40:16  <supermop_> and have them gliding across the map
18:40:29  <Wolf01> Conway game of life, with OTTD trees
18:40:35  <supermop_> exactly
18:40:51  <_dp_> yep, save issue is not quite about removing randomness but rather moving it from map array to code
18:41:24  <supermop_> _dp_: i just want the abiltiy to add either the bad random, or something else, back in via newgrf
18:41:55  <supermop_> or if not newgrf, some other modular element for landscape pieces
18:42:04  <supermop_> river generation as well
18:42:12  <supermop_> and town placement
18:42:20  <supermop_> even town road pattern
18:42:28  <_dp_> supermop_, that's fine I guess as long as it doesn't prevent core and other grfs from planting them efficiently
18:42:44  <supermop_> the fact that i cannot get a 2x4 street grid without a patch seems crazy to me
18:43:57  <andythenorth> :)
18:44:06  <supermop_> some townsets try to make different styles of towns - like pikkas - but they cant control where those town are
18:44:12  <Wolf01> Brick pattern cities
18:44:36  <andythenorth> peter1138: are all the patches shit? o_O
18:44:56  <supermop_> if every town on your map happens to be on top of a height 60  desert mountain, some of those are going to have to be cities anyway
18:45:59  <peter1138> sorry i lost the will to live
18:47:08  <LordAro> frosch123: i rebased my patch queues :)
18:47:49  <_dp_> supermop_, you can get 2x4: disable roads and write gs :p
18:49:04  <frosch123> LordAro: weren't it like 11 before?
18:49:26  <LordAro> frosch123: yeah, you implemented some of them ;)
18:50:02  <LordAro> oh, and 0004 in 421da doesn't actually work
18:50:09  <LordAro> something about static initialisation order
18:50:11  <LordAro> i think
18:50:13  <frosch123> nah, you dropped for example the multibyte thingie
18:50:31  <frosch123> which was btw. blatantly incomplete :p
18:50:37  <LordAro> oh indeed :p
18:50:53  <LordAro> i basically gave up once i realised how many there were :p
18:50:59  <frosch123> same here :)
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18:52:40  <supermop_> _dp_: current i turn off towns allowed to build and build them myself sometimes
18:53:27  <supermop_> but with unspooled the maintenance cost gets a little high, so i end up with cities full of dirt roads
18:54:32  <supermop_> only upgrade to asphalt when i want to run a bus down that street
18:54:46  <andythenorth> peter1138: this one’s nice
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18:54:59  <frosch123> LordAro: btw. how far got your halfbuzz tries?
18:55:12  <frosch123> or did i only dream about you trying stuff?
18:55:25  <frosch123> i though i remembered some configure patch
18:56:01  <LordAro> no further than configuring
18:56:32  <andythenorth> @summon george
18:56:39  <andythenorth> silly DorpsGek
18:56:46  <LordAro> not that i can find any patch now
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18:58:17  <andythenorth> eh, this has a low chance of getting anywhere
18:58:26  <andythenorth> it’s 3 totally different patches on one FS
18:59:24  <supermop_> andythenorth: nice submission date on that spelling patch
18:59:37  <andythenorth> ha ha
18:59:43  <andythenorth> he did well
19:00:34  <andythenorth> what’s this about?
19:01:26  <andythenorth> wiki link is dead
19:01:27  <andythenorth>
19:01:45  <frosch123> i guess "company shares" is one of those topics that makes me regret the project goals :)
19:02:00  <frosch123> can we find some excuse to remove them?
19:02:10  <andythenorth> it’s not a current goal to extend them
19:02:12  <_dp_> andythenorth, judging by lang file 5857 changes shares buying from being in chunks of 25% to 5%
19:02:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: I can’t even say “NoShares"
19:02:34  <andythenorth> if the No thing becomes a dumb joke, it’s no use :P
19:02:34  <supermop_> yeah remove shares
19:02:44  <andythenorth> can anyone explain shares to me?
19:02:47  <frosch123> andythenorth: revert back to "yet another"?
19:02:51  <andythenorth> why don’t I just buy the company?
19:03:06  <supermop_> yet another shareholding mechanism
19:03:07  <_dp_> andythenorth, realism :p
19:03:13  <LordAro> "because TTD" i think
19:03:22  <andythenorth> are shares in TTD?
19:03:27  <LordAro> fairly sure
19:03:34  <andythenorth> frosch123: can we amend?
19:03:35  <LordAro> maybe even in TT
19:03:48  <LordAro> istr that they changed a bit between the two
19:03:52  <supermop_> LordAro: dont recall them in tto
19:03:57  <andythenorth> frosch123 ‘replicate the original gameplay, except where it’s daft’?
19:04:06  <Wolf01> +1
19:04:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's the only option to remove an ai company in ttd
19:04:25  <supermop_> what gameplay value did shares contribute?
19:04:42  <andythenorth> reduce it to a ‘buy’ button?
19:04:45  <Wolf01> We started so well by removing the silly AI and add it with external resources
19:04:45  <frosch123> i think i read about people having fun buying ai companies and refactoring the ai nonsense-network
19:04:53  <andythenorth> I used to buy AI
19:05:05  <supermop_> lets force shareholding on MP servers, so you cannot take action in your campany unless a majority of other shareholding players agree
19:05:17  <supermop_> andythboss
19:05:29  <supermop_> andy's boss?
19:05:42  <frosch123> andy -> baldi?
19:05:42  <Wolf01> I think he is the boss
19:05:56  <supermop_> baldythenorth
19:07:52  <andythenorth> :(
19:08:56  <frosch123> supermop_: if you buy 50 of the shares, you can kick the player from the server?
19:09:07  <supermop_> 51
19:09:12  <frosch123> or move to spectators
19:09:55  <supermop_> we need to make it more easy for players with huge cash reserves to make the game miserable for newly formed companies
19:10:17  <andythenorth> closed
19:10:27  <andythenorth> shares are mostly boring
19:10:39  <_dp_> supermop_, easy enough, just terra all to water :p
19:10:55  <supermop_> yes but we need more
19:11:22  <supermop_> let them buy your company and reassign you to cleaning out the boilers of steam trains
19:12:12  <andythenorth> frosch123 found this one :P
19:12:17  <andythenorth> seems half-implemented?
19:13:03  <frosch123> yes, nothing wrong with the idea, but i gave up trying to teach basic coding skills to random patchers
19:13:33  <frosch123> it were two features, i reimplemented the first one
19:13:47  <andythenorth> this is a bad implementation
19:13:50  <andythenorth> poor UI
19:13:58  <frosch123> maybe the second one can be folded into newlandscape :p
19:14:23  <LordAro> andythenorth: probably wants some sort of selection dropdown?
19:14:29  <LordAro> not sure if that exists
19:14:38  <LordAro> maybe cannibalise some of the settings stuff?
19:15:26  <frosch123> signs have a text filter
19:15:36  <frosch123> imho all lists in ottd should have a text filter
19:15:42  <LordAro> alternatively, maybe comlock's UI? it would be consistent with the map
19:17:35  <frosch123> the other one is consistent with station list :p
19:17:40  <frosch123> but station list is meh as well
19:17:53  <frosch123> i wonder whether i ever used it
19:17:57  <LordAro> mm
19:18:24  <LordAro> and text filters don't allow you to "select" totally disjoint items
19:18:31  <LordAro> which is what's being done here
19:19:01  <frosch123> our text filters do OR
19:19:11  <LordAro> orly
19:19:27  <frosch123> they are not "whole match"
19:20:57  * andythenorth closed 5455
19:21:04  <andythenorth> +1 to text filter, but eh
19:22:04  <andythenorth> about to kill this one
19:22:09  <andythenorth> last chance to save it :P
19:23:24  <peter1138> right
19:23:28  <peter1138> what were we doing?
19:23:38  <peter1138> ah yes, minecraft
19:23:45  <andythenorth> such Steve
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19:25:02  <_dp_> 	"Squirrel is a high level imperative, object-oriented programming language, designed to be a light-weight scripting language that fits in the size, memory bandwidth, and real-time requirements of applications like video games."
19:25:03  <_dp_> huh
19:25:44  <frosch123> shorten it to "squirrel is like lua, but real objects"?
19:26:21  <_dp_> frosch123, I've no idea what lua is like :)
19:26:54  <frosch123> lua is like c, but with some syntactical tricks to make stuff appear as objects
19:26:58  <Alberth> eveything is a dict
19:27:02  <frosch123> which makes it actually horrible
19:27:29  <Alberth> and querying something non-existing yields 'nil'
19:28:05  <Alberth> counting starts at 1
19:28:56  <frosch123> if you have a instance "i", and a method "m", you can write "i:m()" to call it, but "i.m" is something entirely different
19:29:12  * _dp_ never seen a sane language counting from 1
19:29:29  <frosch123> "i:m(...)" is short for "i.__metatable.m(i, ...)"
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19:29:43  <andythenorth> LordAro I probably shouldn’t just close this? o_O
19:29:43  <frosch123> or something similar
19:30:03  <supermop_>
19:30:14  <supermop_> a thing i designed has become a real thing
19:30:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's on the offical todo list :p
19:31:11  <V453000> supermop_: is that your living room? :P
19:31:14  <LordAro> andythenorth: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
19:31:42  <V453000> XD
19:31:49  <LordAro> andythenorth: i think it could probably be finished relatively easily
19:32:07  <Alberth> looking nice supermop_
19:34:35  <andythenorth> fixed
19:34:37  <supermop_> V453000: its the cabinetmaker's shop
19:34:40  <supermop_> this is for a client
19:35:07  <supermop_> at the time i felt bad that it was going to be so expensive, but now i wish i had asked her to use a fancier fabric
19:35:12  <milek7> hmm, i was considiering using lua in train simulator, as it looked popular and reasonably fast for scripting language
19:35:16  <milek7> but if counting starts at 1, i need to find something else ;d
19:36:07  <frosch123> milek7: lua is old and has some mainenance drama
19:36:15  <frosch123> squirrel is likely more suitable now
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19:36:41  <_dp_> lua still seems vastly more popular
19:37:01  <frosch123> php and mysql are also popular
19:37:23  <peter1138> :)
19:37:30  <_dp_> eek
19:38:21  <andythenorth> writing js frameworks is popular
19:38:30  <andythenorth> are at least…frequent :P
19:38:37  <supermop_> it has three hinged compartments for storage
19:38:53  <supermop_> as flat file for art prints
19:39:13  <supermop_> total length is 8', width is 20"
19:39:14  <frosch123> i just had some trouble putting that into context, but was funny
19:39:57  <andythenorth> are / or /s but nvm
19:39:57  <frosch123> i would totally believe if javascript has three hinged compartments for storage
19:40:32  <andythenorth> there is likely a framework for it
19:41:00  <andythenorth> not convinced by this one
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19:42:07  <milek7> hm, how squirrel binds to c/c++?
19:42:20  <milek7> luajit ffi looked really simple
19:42:46  <_dp_> I've no idea what 5619 might be useful for
19:42:50  <frosch123> usually you do it with template magic
19:43:01  <frosch123> but if you care about performance there are other options
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19:43:24  <frosch123> at work i recently had to use lua
19:43:54  <andythenorth> multiple hotkeys extends user interface?
19:43:54  <frosch123> my custom binding code has twice the speed of luabridge, but ofc nasty to use
19:44:10  <_dp_> but I'm only playing patched client, so mb it already has some hotkey issue fixed which that patch might address
19:44:21  * andythenorth can’t judge it
19:44:35  <andythenorth> so we have a patch nobody knows need for?
19:44:42  <andythenorth> probably commit it then :)
19:45:22  <frosch123> andythenorth: i believe it does rotation stuff
19:45:34  <frosch123> press "a" for autorail, press "a" again for autoroad
19:45:58  <frosch123> you can bind the same key to multiple things and it rotates between them
19:46:21  <_dp_> frosch123, "Allow multiple hotkey actions assigned to one key if at most one of them is a tool hotkey"
19:46:28  <_dp_> frosch123, doesn't sound like it
19:47:00  <andythenorth> @seen 3298
19:47:00  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen 3298.
19:47:02  <andythenorth> hmm
19:47:19  <milek7> (btw: this is train simulator with i'm recently playing around
19:47:20  <frosch123> i don't think usernames can start with a number
19:47:29  <V453000> checking if the bot saw the ticket so you can ditch it? :D
19:47:36  <milek7> extra legacy code ;p
19:47:58  <andythenorth> I’ve emailed 3298 to see if he’ll join irc
19:48:04  <frosch123> milek7: what makes it polish? the vehicles or the interface?
19:48:49  <milek7> vehicles
19:50:31  <milek7> aside from launcher there is almost no interface
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19:51:17  <andythenorth> frosch123 LordAro news filtering? o_O
19:51:22  * _dp_ writing python that writes c++ 
19:51:33  <_dp_> coz I too lazy to write c++ myself
19:52:13  <andythenorth> that’s what python’s for, right?
19:52:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: do any of the patches have "filter by currently visible in main viewport"?
19:52:43  <frosch123> (no idea whether it would actualyl turn out usable)
19:53:05  <andythenorth> I suspect not :P
19:53:23  <frosch123> alternatively: filter by smallmap :p
19:54:21  * _dp_ haven't seen any news improvement idea that I'd find useful
19:54:34  <andythenorth> what’s this all about then? o_O
19:55:07  <_dp_> smells refactoring
19:55:10  <frosch123> about news: i always wanted to replace the horizontal ticker with a vertical one
19:55:28  <andythenorth> can it blink?
19:55:42  <frosch123> vertical resizeable statusbar, and way faster scrolling compared to horizontal
19:55:51  <andythenorth> ooh a patch from Eddi|zuHause :)
19:56:05  <andythenorth> “frosch says no"
19:57:01  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ if I close that, will you be cross?
19:59:10  <andythenorth> this is on the TODO, I don’t like to close it
19:59:11  <_dp_> there seem to be enough performance issues with that kind of stuff already
19:59:14  <andythenorth> but it’s from 2012
20:01:41  *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd
20:02:45  <SimYouLater> Trying to work on TTD-Scale tracks, but tbh I will need a pre-assembled single nml file, if only to trim it down to what I need for the one railtype.
20:03:02  <SimYouLater> In GPL v2 licence.
20:04:41  <supermop_> termite is gpl
20:04:56  <SimYouLater> I tried Nutracks, but it's simply too confusing and no single tracktypes have NML GPL v2 code.
20:05:12  <andythenorth> nml examples
20:05:12  <SimYouLater> Is termite not finescale?
20:05:13  <supermop_> at least i think it is
20:05:26  <andythenorth> termite is not finescale
20:05:29  <supermop_> its normal ttd ish
20:05:36  <supermop_> it has NG included
20:05:36  <SimYouLater> I'll try it. brb...
20:05:42  <supermop_> which is finer
20:05:54  <supermop_> but RAIL and ELRL are normal
20:07:54  <andythenorth> 429 open FS left
20:08:08  *** dirtyroshi has joined #openttd
20:08:46  <LordAro> at what point do you start fixing them instead of closing them? :p
20:08:59  <andythenorth> well
20:09:07  <andythenorth> there were ~840 when I started
20:09:15  <andythenorth> so I reckon maybe 419
20:09:32  <andythenorth> I have tested some patches that appear to work
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20:13:32  <SimYouLater> About termite. It doesn't have graphics for RAIL or ELRL. It's programmed to use the existing graphics and doesn't include them.
20:14:04  <andythenorth> let’s see if this compiles
20:14:33  <andythenorth> fails to apply :(
20:14:40  <andythenorth>
20:14:53  <andythenorth> quite a lot of failures
20:15:33  <supermop_> SimYouLater: i think it adds sprites for 3rd rail
20:16:15  <andythenorth> metro
20:16:21  <supermop_> are you looking for code example or graphic example? you could probably erase the 3rd rail from the 3rd rail tracks
20:16:29  <SimYouLater> The thing is, I'm hoping not to have to mess with sprite alignments, considering how long Nutracks apparently had misaligned tracks.
20:16:47  <SimYouLater> I suppose I could.
20:16:58  <SimYouLater> I'm just not really sure how.
20:17:04  <supermop_> also i think swedish tracks is simple and gpl, and adds sprites
20:17:40  <andythenorth> what’s the goal?
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20:21:19  *** _3298 has joined #openttd
20:21:40  <andythenorth> is _3298
20:23:19  <_3298> numbers at the start are indeed not allowed (read the log page), but underscores are apparently fine :)
20:24:00  <andythenorth> so what’s this patch for? :)
20:24:21  * andythenorth is having a Flyspray bonfire
20:24:43  <_3298> well, it came from here:
20:25:15  <_3298> i noticed your activity on flyspray already
20:25:47  <andythenorth> I think Alberth started reviewing the groups gui patch ;)
20:26:09  <_3298> nice
20:26:39  *** SimYouLater has quit IRC
20:26:47  <_3298> looking back, 5619 is more like a solution in search of a problem
20:27:06  <andythenorth> wondered about that :)
20:28:12  <_3298> i wrote it to get around a design flaw in my transparency gui draft, then solved it in another way, and dumped the patch on the bugtracker for others to find
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20:29:16  <andythenorth> _3298: mind if I close it? o_O
20:29:46  <_3298> it's mostly useless
20:30:04  <SimYouLater> Ugh, I somehow got disconnected.
20:31:03  <SimYouLater> @andythenorth: I'm trying to make a newgrf with a single tracktype, with graphics which imitate the original TTD toyland rails.
20:31:58  <andythenorth> 427 FS left :)
20:33:12  <andythenorth> SimYouLater
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20:37:18  <_3298> andy, if you think 427 is too few, i can add a few new patches ;)
20:37:42  <SimYouLater> How would I download the linked example as one piece? I don't use any special coding meger programs.
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20:39:05  <andythenorth> _3298: you could fix some of the bugs :P
20:39:25  <andythenorth> SimYouLater: you can’t
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20:39:38  <andythenorth> download one at a time, or get a version control app
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20:40:09  <_3298> andy: i don't think i have that type of patch available right now :(
20:40:11  <supermop_> SimYouLater: swedish tracks might be one simple nml file
20:40:17  <supermop_> can't remember
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20:43:00  <SimYouLater> Well, at least it was small. Downloading tons of files would have been painful...
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20:44:24  <supermop_> ive actually never managed to do a rail grf despite all the MLSS nonsense with depots, and trying to draw Alweg monorail tracks in fits and starts
20:45:20  <supermop_> at first i hated monorails, seeing them as a boondoggle used to forstall real heavy rail construction
20:46:51  <supermop_> but reading up on the alweg system to inform an idea for a monorail grf that would be more hobbled and realistic led me to get charmed by the stupid things
20:47:19  <supermop_> so now i want to make a monorail grf out of genuine appreciation for a very niche product
20:48:22  <supermop_> and now i aim to make a point of riding the Osaka monorail week after next
20:48:50  <supermop_> ( already rode the Tokyo monorail after my 'conversion' back in 2013)
20:49:45  <SimYouLater> @andythenorth: that example has "nml" files containing html code unrelated to what anyone would need
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20:50:47  <andythenorth> SimYouLater: whre?
20:50:50  <andythenorth> where? *
20:51:15  <andythenorth> paste
20:51:23  <SimYouLater> Oh. Apparently you have to click "view".
20:52:04  <SimYouLater> Or similar. Download.
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20:55:33  <V453000> awesome presentation to watch
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20:56:05  <andythenorth> V453000: now I can’t go to bed :(
20:56:13  <andythenorth> fucker
20:56:17  <andythenorth> that’s at least 1hr
20:56:19  <V453000> this guy is fucking amazing
20:56:42  <andythenorth> oh it’s new doom, not the original midi track
20:56:54  <V453000> yez
20:56:56  <V453000> iz
20:57:22  <SimYouLater> Thanks, andy, the files will be perfect.
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21:24:32  <supermop_> i assume andy'd life is free of doom
21:24:48  <supermop_> and is all brio, lego, etc
21:26:47  <andythenorth> yup
21:27:08  <supermop_> i had the n64 doom cart
21:27:12  <supermop_> for some reason
21:27:23  <supermop_> seemed like an old game even then
21:27:40  <supermop_> and an odd choice to be on n64
21:30:46  <supermop_> i think it must have been part of some rush for n64 FPS shovelware
21:42:33  <Wolf01> heh
21:43:05  <andythenorth> nice colours
21:45:00  <peter1138> -- Beta feature --
21:45:05  <peter1138> This will install Ubuntu on Windows
21:45:06  <peter1138> ..
21:45:10  <peter1138> WCGW?
21:45:42  <frosch123> it could install vim
21:45:56  <Wolf01> You can also wait for the next update and download many different subsystems via store
21:45:58  <supermop_> why is donald the locomotive and mickey the tender?
21:46:36  <Wolf01> Do you see a tender with a beak?
21:48:00  <peter1138> well
21:48:13  <peter1138> how long to wait for the next update?
21:48:19  <Wolf01> Fall
21:49:15  <Wolf01>
21:49:34  <peter1138> too late anyway, it's installing
21:50:13  <Wolf01> I hope it's installing 16.04 and not 14.04
21:50:37  <Wolf01> I had to upgrade manually after creator update
21:55:25  <frosch123> so you can only play textmode ottd?
21:55:32  <Wolf01> :D
21:55:46  <Wolf01> You can install an x server on windows and use that
21:55:59  <frosch123> ok, that was my next question
22:02:09  <peter1138> which one?
22:04:44  <Alkel_U3> textmode is this?
22:05:39  <Alkel_U3> I ws hella surprised that started up when I accidentaly ran non-dedicated-server instalation over ssh once
22:06:00  <Alkel_U3> even more surprised that it actually sorta worked
22:07:35  <peter1138> Cloning into 'openttd'...
22:07:40  <peter1138> This is going to end badly
22:09:34  <LordAro> haha
22:10:47  <peter1138> Wolf01, it is "xenial"
22:11:22  <LordAro> that is indeed 16.04
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22:12:28  <Wolf01> You also need to install that libicu52 stuff
22:12:34  <peter1138> build-dep
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22:25:34  <andythenorth> bed
22:25:35  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
22:27:52  <peter1138> build
22:28:05  <peter1138> it building
22:29:21  <peter1138> i miss the days of 12 second compile times
22:29:31  <peter1138> that was before we c++'d it
22:32:46  <frosch123> i was surprised about the vastly different buildtimes lordaro showed on that compile service
22:34:40  <LordAro> single core compilation's taken about 5 min as long as i can remember
22:35:58  <peter1138> OpenTTD requires graphics to function
22:35:59  <peter1138> \o/
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22:36:46  <peter1138> hmm, wonder if it's doing anything :p
22:38:12  <peter1138> seems to be stuck on :(
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22:42:21  <peter1138> dbg: [net] [tcp/http] requesting
22:42:25  <peter1138> is that... right?
22:42:27  <peter1138> it's a 404.
22:43:25  <Wolf01> It works for me, retry, maybe you got a bad mirrir
22:43:29  <Wolf01> *mirror
22:43:46  <LordAro> /bananas/ works fine
22:44:04  <LordAro> /bananas indeed is a 404
22:47:21  <peter1138> oh it's a post to /bananas, and that's ok
22:49:20  <peter1138> but it's not requesting the content
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22:59:00  <Wolf01>
22:59:14  <Wolf01> What does that remember me?
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23:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: how should we know?
23:09:25  <Wolf01> OTTD
23:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the only notable instance of someone forking openttd because they aren't getting along with the "leadership" that i can think of is cirdan.
23:13:12  <Eddi|zuHause> other forks are mainly patchpacks
23:13:48  <glx> and most patchpack die sooner or later because they are hard to maintain
23:16:39  <Eddi|zuHause> then, of course, there's the whole SAC clique who basically "forked" the forum. but that doesn't really directly concerns openttd
23:17:45  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, how is patchpack different from a fork?
23:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it's not, but the reasons for existing are different
23:19:06  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: patchpacks are a subset of forks
23:19:38  <Eddi|zuHause> technically, every patch is a fork, until it is applied to trunk
23:19:48  <glx> patchpacks try to follow trunk updates
23:19:58  <Wolf01> A fork could continue development on its own road, while a patchpack is just lot of patches applies to trunk
23:20:15  <frosch123> glx: the current ones are pretty longlived
23:20:30  <glx> and often stop because some merges are very hard
23:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's because trunk doesn't change much :p
23:20:47  <frosch123> i think it's also because they know how to use a vcs
23:20:58  <Wolf01> Just be evil and apply more patches :>
23:21:08  <Wolf01> *merge
23:21:56  <glx> I remember the "fun" it was to help RichK's patchpack when we rewrote the GUI
23:21:57  <Eddi|zuHause> what was the last big change in trunk? MHL? most relevant patchpacks probably included that already
23:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: gui frameworks are really hard...
23:22:48  <Wolf01> UI rewrite was one of the main reasons why I stopped to develop at that time :P
23:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> you have to get into the same mindset as the framework creator
23:23:39  <_dp_> as I see it the main difference is that some forks(patchpacks) that are meant to coexist with original and some aim to replace it
23:24:16  <glx> the switch to c++ killed many patches too :)
23:25:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember that, as it was around the time MiniIN died
23:25:13  <glx> hehe
23:26:54  <glx> main problem with MiniIN was its creator not being a coder
23:27:14  <Wolf01> And me providing patches
23:27:36  <glx> so each conflict in a merge was causing a lot of troubles
23:29:21  <glx> when you're the author of the patch you usually know how to easily solve a conflict
23:29:49  <glx> but in a patchpack it's a different story
23:30:29  <glx> and worse when 2 patches touch the same area
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23:35:27  <peter1138> fopen() doesn't create paths does it...
23:36:09  <peter1138> the base graphics downloader is trying to save to the local content directory
23:36:12  <peter1138> but none of that exists. hmm.
23:40:15  <peter1138> FioCreateDirectory() doesn't check if it worked
23:40:38  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: of course there was also the topic of the patchpack growing totally out of the original scope of being like 3 patches (hence "Mini")
23:41:20  <Eddi|zuHause> (apparently there was a regular "IN" before)
23:43:35  <frosch123> i think you missed the 10 year anniversary of last miniin
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23:43:57  <SimYouLater_> Does anyone know how I can get in contact with NekoMaster? Immediately or as soon as possible? I've sent him a very important PM, I'm not at liberty to discuss what, but he needs to see it and hasn't posted in days.
23:44:09  *** SimYouLater_ has quit IRC
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23:44:27  <SimYouLater_> Sorry, misspelled my username.
23:44:31  <SimYouLater_> ?
23:44:34  <frosch123> video games do not qualify as "very important" in general
23:44:43  <frosch123> @seen nekomaster
23:44:43  <DorpsGek> frosch123: nekomaster was last seen in #openttd 6 weeks, 2 days, 16 hours, 18 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <nekomaster> and 0 kN TE
23:44:51  <frosch123> so, was even here once
23:45:36  <SimYouLater_> In this case, if I told you, something I will not let happen would. Please find them.
23:45:44  <frosch123> it
23:45:48  <frosch123> 's vacation time
23:45:56  <frosch123> maybe he is somewhere traveling
23:46:23  <frosch123> forum pm is your best try
23:46:39  <SimYouLater_> Then please wait for him before you do it over again. You'll know what I'm talking about when/if you spot it.
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23:51:31  <frosch123> i don't think i ever had an interaction with him, so i leave it to eddi to not do something when you see something
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23:54:07  <Wolf01> WTF I just read?
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