Log for #openttd on 29th August 2017:
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02:20:43  <Rygrass> can someone tell me if autoclean_protected = True and Default is set to 36... does that mean that they are protected for 3 years of game time only ?
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06:12:30  <LordAro> Rygrass: that means that protected companies (those with a password set, iirc) will also be autocleaned
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07:21:46  <andythenorth> o/
07:31:44  <Rygrass> cheers mate
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07:49:10  <dihedral> Hej Hej
07:52:20  <andythenorth> is dihedral :)
07:55:05  <dihedral> Yarp
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11:46:10  <Wolf01> o/
11:46:29  <Wolf01> ISP tested my line "your line can't handle the speed you are connected at"
11:47:24  <Wolf01> That's the main reason about my problems, the central blocks my connection because I'm too fast
11:49:08  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
11:55:32  <V453000> yo
11:55:36  <V453000> andythenorth: tropic trees somehow
11:55:41  <andythenorth> yo
11:55:42  <V453000> got some ideas
11:55:47  <andythenorth> CACTI
11:55:51  <V453000> but basically same technique
11:55:58  <andythenorth> PINEAPPLES
11:56:00  <V453000> cacti will definitely be there
11:56:13  <V453000> generally the theme is overgrown plants
11:56:22  <V453000> rather than giant palms, but some of those too
11:56:26  <V453000> simply put, jungle as fuck
11:56:31  <V453000> haha almost rhymes
11:56:33  <V453000> iz poet now
11:56:51  <andythenorth> V453000:
11:57:02  <V453000> no.
12:09:01  <V453000> friend told me the noisiness of the ground doesn't really fit with the cartoony style of the trees
12:09:03  <V453000> he might be right
12:09:05  <V453000> fucking asshole
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12:14:38  <andythenorth> :)
12:25:42  <FLHerne> I think he's right
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13:05:24  <V453000> idk, is he and how? solve? :D
13:06:52  <planetmaker> usually with acid, combined sulphuric and nitric acid. No left-overs ;)
13:07:07  <V453000> ? :D
13:07:15  <planetmaker> that solves the problematic person :P
13:07:39  <V453000> well :D
13:07:41  <planetmaker> (ok, that joke works better in German) :P
13:07:58  <V453000> what does planetmaker think?
13:08:26  <V453000> trees fit with terrain Y/N? :)
13:08:43  <planetmaker> hm... the terrain is so monochromatic bleak :)
13:09:06  <planetmaker> looks like a scenery from an end-of-time movie :D
13:10:01  <planetmaker> but were the grass green... I think it would fit
13:10:59  <planetmaker> though I can see what your pal means with "too noisy in comparison with the trees". Not sure that matters really. You might try to make the patches on the ground bigger (like half or 1/3 of the frequency)
13:11:35  <planetmaker> I guess 1/3 of the noise frequency would fit better
13:11:58  <_dp_> or add more noise to the trees?
13:12:30  <V453000> I will be releasing 2 version with different grfid, one with green and one with gray land
13:12:55  <V453000> I am quite confident that the gray is a seriously good concept, it makes everything work with 8bpp palette, and that's something that I find extremely important
13:13:12  <V453000> so far to me 32bpp has a giant issue - people want to either replace everything or nothing
13:13:22  <V453000> I've been using brix with DB set and swedish rails, FIRS and so on
13:13:26  <Wolf01> +1
13:13:29  <V453000> and it fits perfectly fine thanks to the grayscale
13:13:40  <V453000> extra zoom isn't what breaks things, full RGB is
13:14:14  <__ln__>
13:14:32  <V453000> I'll try to play around with the noise, thanks for your feedback :) one of the plans is to have the trees get more noisy from the bottom with a gradient
13:15:34  <Wolf01> __ln__: holy shit... noooooo
13:15:52  <V453000> but yeah, if you want to use green grass, you will easily be able to just by using a different version ... since I Have parameters for disabling anything you want, you can get multiple different versions of BRIX with different grfIDs, and just combine what you want, green land, grayscale houses or whatever there is eventually
13:17:42  <_dp_> btw it looks a bid weird to me having such bright green trees above snowline
13:18:44  <Wolf01> Pines?
13:19:07  <V453000> well they are already darker since the tops aren't visible due to the snow
13:19:22  <_dp_> and below snowline having some autumn colors may not be a bad idea
13:19:29  <V453000> that's for sure
13:19:43  <V453000> some more oranges will definitely be there along with some lushy greens
13:19:47  <_dp_> pines aren't very bright
13:19:48  <Wolf01> That would mean having seasons too
13:19:50  <V453000> basically that's for grotwh stages
13:20:00  <V453000> growth*
13:20:28  <_dp_> also there is nothing with round canopy that stays green in winter afaik
13:20:39  <V453000> that's fine :P
13:25:48  * _dp_ looking at photos from my winter hikes 
13:25:58  <_dp_> if anything pines are black in subarctic :p
13:27:02  <_dp_> actually black trees may look quite good with gray grass
13:28:09  <V453000> the plan isn't really to follow reality 1:1 :)
13:28:47  <_dp_> yeah, I noticed)
13:30:56  <V453000> I'm more trying to play with colour theory and the big picture, overall greens are the code colour of trees ... obviously naturally, but then if I want to apply that generally to all trees, I feel like it's fine to have it even for snowy trees etc, because it's their family code that puts them together
13:32:37  <andythenorth> trees are green
13:32:42  <andythenorth> skies are blue
13:33:02  <_dp_> I get but it just doesn't look like subarctic imo
13:33:17  <_dp_> and I've been to subarctic, I almost live there
13:33:24  <_dp_> it's dark and moody in winter
13:35:40  <_dp_> snow is beautiful in sunshine but trees stay dark
13:37:53  <V453000> your points are good
13:37:57  <V453000> I understand and basically agree
13:38:08  <V453000> just not sure if I want to put it in there, I probably will in some way
13:38:16  <V453000> but some way is very vague :P
13:38:43  <V453000> for example my water is super black, and that's not going to change either :P
13:40:10  <_dp_> black rivers are quite realistic if you ask me :p
13:40:58  <_dp_> unless covered with snow ofc
13:43:47  <_dp_>
13:46:12  <_dp_> last time I've seen a river that's more blue than black was somewhere in Turkey I think :)
13:47:48  <milek7> hmm, rivers are green usually :>
13:48:19  <Wolf01> Greenish-blue
13:48:29  <Wolf01> At least the one of my town
13:48:52  <V453000> gg XD
13:48:53  <Wolf01> If you go to Rome, the river Tevere is brown
13:53:43  <blocage> maybe we should list color that river cannot be ?
13:54:48  <_dp_> rivers reflect a lot so they can technically be of pretty much any color
13:55:40  <blocage> _dp_, that's the point, list of color that river cannot be : [] ;)
13:56:24  <_dp_> I'm just saying that in subarctic they typically look very dark, almost black, at least where I live
13:57:54  <Wolf01> They look clear to azure here... what do you put into water?
14:00:06  <blocage> There is any tutorial about Window & widget in openttd ?
14:00:11  <Wolf01> :D
14:00:12  <_dp_> idk, mud, rust mb. There are lots of swamps here
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14:00:41  <Alkel_U3> it depends on the chosen economy and thus on the kind of industrial waste that goes into the rivers
14:01:01  <andythenorth> FIRS should adjust river sprites eh
14:01:56  <blocage> Alkel_U3, you mean that in OTTD we should change the color of river based on surounding industry ;) ?
14:02:13  <Alkel_U3> yea, with mixing, too. Like when a river running from near a scrap yard meets output from a papermill :P
14:02:31  <Alkel_U3> blocage: it can't possibly be a bad feature :D
14:02:57  <_dp_> here it's not an industrial waste, just swamp water has brown color like a black tea
14:05:21  <Alkel_U3> oh, and mutated salamanders crawling out of the rivers and terrorizing nearby cities and sinking ships and displeasing Poseidon and...
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14:17:56  <Alberth> o/
14:18:00  <Wolf01> o/
14:18:04  <LordAro> o/
14:20:29  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
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14:56:15  <Alberth> hola
14:59:26  <frosch123> moi
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15:02:50  <andythenorth> also
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15:06:05  <Wolf01> Meh, ISP removed the 4Mb cap I asked to put... now I'm connected at 4.8Mb and unstable connection
15:06:31  <frosch123> V453000: if the noise is too noisy, maybe try some pattern like
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15:10:23  <_dp_> frosch123, that kind of looks like toyland :p
15:11:20  <frosch123> i think that also depends on the size of the pattern
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15:15:06  <V453000> frosch123: :D hm
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16:26:50  <andythenorth> what shall we break next? :)
16:27:00  <andythenorth> Wolf01: how is the NoTrees spec? o_O
16:27:31  <Wolf01> You should write that, I'm not good at specs
16:28:00  <Wolf01> I can help you gather info
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16:32:05  <andythenorth> ok, maybe later :)
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17:36:06  <andythenorth> o/
17:37:03  <andythenorth> Wolf01: maybe, instead of NewThings
17:37:10  <andythenorth> we should close some more of the 400 FS
17:37:29  <Wolf01> Yes, it would be nice
17:37:44  <Alberth> how do we have nested groups in trunk?
17:37:57  <Alberth> ie how do you make them?
17:38:07  <Wolf01> Drag&drop iirc
17:38:22  <andythenorth> drag and drop
17:38:36  <Alberth> from "ungroiuped" trains to a new group, ok
17:38:41  <Alberth> but a sub-group?
17:38:47  <Wolf01> I used them in the past to group by city and then by line for pax trams
17:39:04  <andythenorth> Alberth: do you mean ‘why?’ ? :)
17:39:09  <Wolf01> Drag a group into another
17:39:17  <Alberth> :O
17:39:26  <Alberth> drag groups, let me try that :)
17:39:41  <Alberth> andy, I meant "how" :)
17:39:51  <andythenorth> ok :)
17:40:08  <andythenorth> train length indicators in UI :D
17:40:30  <Wolf01> :)
17:40:41  <andythenorth> isn’t it
17:40:41  <Wolf01> frosch shipped it ;)
17:41:23  <andythenorth> so should I be joining .dev or no?
17:41:27  <andythenorth> as per
17:41:33  <andythenorth> ^ which needs an update anyway
17:42:28  <frosch123> .dev is deserted
17:42:35  <frosch123> also, see topic
17:43:02  <andythenorth> ok
17:43:25  <andythenorth> @seen Rubidium
17:43:25  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Rubidium was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 22 hours, and 9 seconds ago: <Rubidium> sure
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17:51:42  <andythenorth> likely this could use a refresh?
17:52:13  <andythenorth> wiki needs a match taking to some of it
17:52:29  <andythenorth> every year, we burn about 50% of our work dev docs at christmas time
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17:53:09  <andythenorth> eh, should wiki pages like this be preserved as history?
17:53:14  * andythenorth thinks burn it all
17:54:07  <frosch123> depends whether you want to link people to already explored stuff
17:54:12  <frosch123> or whether they shall reinvent the wheel
17:54:14  <andythenorth> 'history'
17:54:16  <andythenorth> 'vault'
17:54:20  <andythenorth> ‘archived'
17:54:28  <Alberth> planetmaker believes we should keep old stuff
17:54:33  <andythenorth> wiki must have a way to show editors/contributors?
17:54:40  <andythenorth> sorted by date + frequency?
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17:54:59  <andythenorth> I’m not sorting all the wiki crap out, but it’s housekeeping for a healthy project
17:55:01  <Alberth> someone will think it's needed
17:55:10  <andythenorth> $someone always wants to keep stuff
17:55:30  <frosch123> like your emails :p
17:55:43  <Alberth> maybe start with making the manual up-to-date-ish?
17:55:45  <andythenorth> I delete all my emails after 5 years statutory period
17:55:56  <andythenorth> I regret that about 4 times per year
17:56:00  <andythenorth> the rest of the time...not
17:56:39  <Alberth> as far as I am concerned, everything old can go
17:56:50  <andythenorth> +1
17:57:00  <andythenorth> presumably wiki has an admin role?
17:57:01  <Alberth> or get updated, if still relevant
17:57:04  * andythenorth would like admin role if so
17:57:28  <frosch123> we have a template for "history pages"
17:57:53  <frosch123> <- like here
17:58:02  <frosch123> pretty sure there is also a template for "out of date"
17:58:02  <andythenorth> oic :)
17:58:10  <andythenorth> we need a librarian or two
17:58:12  <frosch123> just add those and think of them as "closed"
17:58:13  <andythenorth> it’s not me
17:58:25  <andythenorth> but I wouldn’t mind trying to persuade people to do it
17:58:35  <andythenorth> I don’t mind sorting out stupid disputes either :P
17:59:15  <frosch123> there is nothing on the wiki, except kamnet with his newgrf catalogue, xussr and forum photo of the month
17:59:32  <frosch123> i don't think other stuff has seen updates in years
17:59:34  <andythenorth> hmm
17:59:42  <andythenorth> it’s still the best format for docs though?
17:59:51  <frosch123> what docs :p
18:00:00  <andythenorth> all the how-to-play stuff
18:00:06  <frosch123> the manual is done?
18:00:06  <andythenorth> I still learn stuff there sometimes :P
18:00:22  <frosch123> i considered writing a newgrf howto
18:00:46  <andythenorth> I didn’t know about the FISH port
18:00:48  <andythenorth> :)
18:00:58  <frosch123> using all the stereotypes to make people sort themself into a usergroup
18:01:25  * andythenorth never likes wikis for docs
18:01:27  <frosch123> andythenorth: the windows version has this weird logo
18:01:28  <andythenorth> but anyone can edit
18:01:38  <frosch123> it's also why the windows version has 4(?) sprites more
18:01:43  <Alberth> very few actually do
18:01:53  <andythenorth> readthedocs?
18:01:58  <andythenorth> sphinx? :P
18:02:07  <Alberth> after github :p
18:02:08  <andythenorth> docs remain an unsolved problem
18:02:15  <Alberth> so we can merge things :p
18:02:38  <Alberth> markdown would perhaps work somewhat
18:02:46  <Alberth> light-weight enough
18:02:50  <frosch123> i do not see demand for anything more than the wiki provides
18:02:58  <frosch123> most people will watch some random yt guy anyway
18:03:29  <andythenorth> github renders md by default
18:03:31  <andythenorth>
18:03:43  <Alberth> we'll just make a separate repo for the documentation
18:03:48  <andythenorth> not a bad idea
18:03:59  <andythenorth> pull requests
18:04:01  <frosch123> it is a bad idea though
18:04:08  <frosch123> manual is written by non-tech people
18:04:13  <andythenorth> it adds bureacracy
18:04:24  <andythenorth> and I have to lookup md syntax every time I use it
18:04:25  <Alberth> oh, speaking of web-ish things, do you have time/ideas for bananas2 ?
18:04:33  <Alberth> or rather website(N+1)?
18:04:34  <andythenorth> no / yes
18:04:39  <frosch123> prrety sure there was a feature list for bananas2
18:04:45  <andythenorth> I was thinking about that yesterday Alberth
18:04:52  <andythenorth> what does website do?
18:05:03  <andythenorth> there’s reasons it has to be in a big framework like django?
18:05:13  <frosch123> the reason was single sign on
18:05:18  <Alberth> let's first decide what it should do
18:05:27  <andythenorth> good idea
18:05:51  <andythenorth> - release announcements? (or on forums?)
18:05:52  <frosch123> now eints uses the same ldap, but you cannot use the same cookie for login
18:05:59  <andythenorth> - download? (or on forums?)
18:06:16  <frosch123> download via main page, since it redirects to mirrors
18:06:29  <frosch123> also, only automated stuff
18:06:31  <frosch123> nothing on forums
18:06:44  <andythenorth> - server lists (never noticed those before)
18:07:07  <andythenorth> oh we have a development page here as well
18:07:10  <frosch123> we link them all them time in this channel
18:07:18  <frosch123> it's the second most popular link in this channel
18:07:22  * andythenorth didn’t know we have a dev page on site
18:07:35  <andythenorth> our footprint is quite broad eh? :)
18:07:38  <Alberth> it's more a collection of links
18:07:40  <frosch123> whenever someone does not get mp to work, the site is to tell whether the problem is with server or with client
18:07:46  <milek7> maybe oauth2?
18:08:39  <andythenorth> oh lots of email addresses on contact
18:08:46  <andythenorth> in case I want to ask for feature requests
18:08:57  <frosch123> yes, they remain unanswered usually :p
18:09:38  <andythenorth> ok so what’s the minimum it could do?
18:09:51  <andythenorth> ‘download now’?
18:10:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- a paste from earlier this year
18:10:40  <frosch123> anyway, the trend is to put everything in separate containers
18:10:52  <andythenorth> step 1: fix coop SSL :)
18:10:52  <frosch123> so independent bananas which uses central ldap is prefered
18:11:48  <andythenorth> do we actually need a website?
18:11:50  <Alberth> several small sites thus?
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18:12:00  <frosch123> Alberth: like eints
18:12:25  * andythenorth should update eints eh
18:12:36  <frosch123> also bananas website independent of the content server, so similar to musa
18:12:42  <frosch123> or ottd client
18:12:59  <andythenorth> do we need a web client for bananas?
18:13:50  <frosch123> Alberth:
18:13:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: not for the user, but for the content creator
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18:14:26  <andythenorth> I long wanted to put a better user client on it
18:14:29  <andythenorth> but I’m not sure
18:14:33  <andythenorth> TMWFTLB probably
18:14:40  <frosch123> it should allow editing the description, renaming stuff, setting compatible versions, setting stuff as "avaialble for new download"
18:15:02  <frosch123> the latter for different ottd versions, not just for the newest
18:15:57  <frosch123> also probably a better method to enter meta data
18:16:06  <frosch123> screenshots are a popular request
18:16:16  <andythenorth> how does a content creator client fit alongside musa?
18:16:18  <frosch123> more useful / predefined tags etc
18:16:23  <andythenorth> two methods for same result = daft?
18:16:36  <frosch123> musa is only for upload
18:16:40  <frosch123> musa cannot edit stuff
18:17:01  <frosch123> but ofc you can also write a better musa client
18:17:06  <frosch123> with some gui
18:17:21  <frosch123> s/better/non-tech person safe/
18:17:25  <andythenorth> easiest gui would be a web app :P
18:17:31  <frosch123> see
18:17:40  <andythenorth> ha, start musa locally, serve it on localhost :P
18:17:42  <frosch123> musa was only written because http 1.1 upload fails for big files
18:17:43  <andythenorth> that can’t go wrong
18:17:48  <frosch123> actually, is that better in http 2 ?
18:18:23  <frosch123> or do we need some javascript frontend which uploads differently?
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18:18:28  <Alberth> some form of newgrf classification by topics would be useful
18:18:47  <Alberth> eg set of keywords, or tags
18:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> ftp... torrent... :p
18:19:27  <Alberth> telnet :p
18:19:29  <andythenorth> allegedly HTTP POST has no size limit in the protocol
18:19:35  <andythenorth> it’s a configuration option on the server
18:19:43  <andythenorth> according to Random People On SO
18:19:50  <andythenorth> I didn’t read actual, real specs
18:19:59  <frosch123> Alberth: <- i tried the current tags somewhen
18:20:08  <frosch123> they show how the current gui fails
18:20:18  <andythenorth> tags always fail :)
18:20:19  <frosch123> people use "heightmap" and "2048" as tags
18:20:32  <frosch123> just because there is no proper filter for that
18:20:48  <frosch123> so, imho categories should be predefined and not user defined :p
18:21:00  <frosch123> well, admin-defined i guess
18:21:07  <andythenorth> librarian?
18:21:17  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that the whole point of tags, to provide filters where the default ones don't fit?
18:21:32  <andythenorth> kamnet manages here
18:22:01  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: my experience of running apps with community tagging is that it’s….a nice idea in theory
18:22:01  <frosch123> good point, that page only exists because neither bananas nor grfcrawler have that moderator support
18:23:00  <Alberth> indeed
18:23:06  <andythenorth> hmm
18:23:28  <Alberth> Eddi: You want all "eye-candy" grfs together, eg
18:23:35  * andythenorth always gets bored by the details of docs + librarian issues
18:23:39  <andythenorth> same at work
18:23:46  <Alberth> not sure that yuo make a classification covering enough
18:23:58  <andythenorth> make a decent environment for people to do creative work - programming, drawing, writing etc
18:23:59  <andythenorth> profit
18:24:21  <frosch123> also: a web-gui to compose a newgrf selection via some wizard-interface that prevents to stupidest things (like 2 industry sets),. and some export/import via clipboard into ottd
18:24:28  <andythenorth> bananas is easy: just put all grfs made by andythenorth at top
18:24:37  <andythenorth> and put all V453000 grfs at bottom
18:24:44  <frosch123> also permalinks to those newgrf-lists for sharing
18:24:47  <andythenorth> put a sort-order-toggle button on
18:24:49  <andythenorth> WIN
18:24:58  <frosch123> @calc 8*64
18:24:58  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 512
18:25:18  <frosch123> 512 hexdigit fingerprint?
18:26:29  <frosch123> Alberth: in summary, we need a supersed of current bananas, musa, grfcrawler and wiki-newgrf-site
18:26:59  <frosch123> (note that both bananas website and musa both have features which the other one does not have)
18:27:19  <frosch123> like only musa support multiple authors and dependencies with versions
18:27:29  <frosch123> while only website allows editing existing stuff
18:28:21  <andythenorth> I closed
18:28:27  <andythenorth> should I reopen? :)
18:29:02  <frosch123> do you have a fidget spinner or fidget cube?
18:29:09  <Alberth> nah, you want a demo image
18:29:29  <Alberth> or a screenshot-ish something
18:29:42  <Alberth> preview of heightmap
18:30:12  <Wolf01> andythenort: what do you think?
18:30:21  <Alberth> I don't care about preview of the same helicopter in all 8 directions :)
18:30:24  <frosch123> Alberth: preview of license :)
18:30:29  <andythenorth> frosch123: too many fidget spinners here already :P
18:30:50  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I think it’s interesting to rethink how that works
18:30:56  <andythenorth> the specific layout…dunno
18:30:57  <Alberth> preview of readme :)
18:31:06  <Alberth> Wolf01: spiffy!
18:31:09  <andythenorth> but it makes a more direct connection Wolf01
18:31:14  <andythenorth> that’s important
18:31:32  <Wolf01> The current UI is too much verbose, I would like more graphics
18:31:38  <andythenorth> +1
18:31:41  <Alberth> +1
18:32:02  <andythenorth> OS X has a totally pointless way to resize disk volumes, based on dragging rectangles
18:32:08  <frosch123> map preview with 10 unlabeled sliders?
18:32:15  <andythenorth> it’s less accurate than typing numbers in, but more fun
18:32:43  <Wolf01> Almost all the graphic partition tools have that
18:32:57  <Alberth> frosch123: do you have "palapeli"  ?   very interesting way to do a preview
18:33:20  <Alberth> it zooms at the position of the cursor
18:33:52  <andythenorth> hmm
18:33:58  <frosch123> google gives me toddler puzzles
18:34:14  <Wolf01> I played that one, once
18:34:23  <Alberth> it's an electronic puzzle solver
18:34:36  <andythenorth> something about openttd websites…I just can’t get excited about reworking them :P
18:34:36  <Alberth> or puzzle table, rather
18:34:46  <frosch123> ah
18:35:14  <frosch123> can they handle 5000 pieces and more?
18:35:27  <frosch123> might solve the space issues of my sister
18:35:32  <Alberth> don't know, never tried more than 450 or so
18:35:42  <Wolf01> If it works up to 15k pieces it's the right one for me
18:36:06  <frosch123> she refuses to do puzzles less than 5000 :)
18:36:28  <Alberth> and rigtlhy so, or you'd be done too quickly :p
18:36:29  <frosch123> 6000 is small, 10k is normal, 15k is big
18:36:59  <Alberth> I usually stick to up to 1K, long enough for me
18:37:21  <Alberth> but if you do it every day, I can see you want something bigger
18:37:42  <frosch123> well, 10k takes about 8 months or so
18:38:00  <frosch123> i guess some fun comes from the logistics :)
18:39:03  <Alberth> and searching for the right piece
18:40:22  <frosch123> oh, it's a kde game, i thought it was a webapp
18:40:42  <Wolf01> Meh, Travis CI trying to get me to use it... the only project I wanted to apply CI at is not compatible with Travis...
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18:41:38  <andythenorth> hmm
18:41:52  <andythenorth> website stuff is probably too close to my actual work most days :P
18:41:54  <andythenorth> also...
18:42:05  <andythenorth> …how do we deploy our web apps?
18:42:18  <andythenorth> we have a large footprint, how are they pushed to production?
18:42:19  <Wolf01> Direct edit on production
18:42:24  <Wolf01> :D
18:42:52  <Wolf01> I was about to kill one of my bosses last time he did that
18:43:37  <andythenorth> we have a CMS with direct edits in production, but that’s different
18:43:41  <frosch123> how do you rotate pieces in palapeli?
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18:44:46  <frosch123> hmm, seems like all tiles are already oriented correctly
18:45:01  <frosch123> doesn't that spoil 3/4 of the problem?
18:45:12  <frosch123> or 1/2
18:46:06  <Alberth> you can configure that
18:46:22  <andythenorth> eh, reasons I don’t want to touch openttd web stuff:
18:46:27  <Wolf01> 4/5, on real ones you have to flip them top-bottom too
18:46:29  <andythenorth> 1. having to get the VM to do any work on it
18:46:32  <Alberth> vertical lines in the train depot ask to add a line at the far left too, doesn't it?
18:46:36  <andythenorth> 2. no reproducible build afaik
18:46:50  <andythenorth> 3. no documented route to production
18:46:54  <andythenorth> 4. too much stuff imho
18:47:39  <Eddi|zuHause> strange, i closed my computer case, and the computer shut off...
18:48:03  <Alberth> you found the hidden power button!
18:48:48  <Alberth> andy isn't it just rows of data in a data base?
18:49:19  <Alberth> maybe I am over-simplifying things
18:50:01  <andythenorth> I think that’s a valid way to model it
18:50:05  <andythenorth> but still…which database
18:50:11  <andythenorth> how do I get the data for development?
18:50:15  <frosch123> Alberth: i left it out because there is also usually none on the right
18:50:21  <andythenorth> how do I buildout the right db locally?
18:50:30  <andythenorth> how do I test in dev/staging?
18:50:31  <frosch123> i tried, but it looked weird
18:50:37  <andythenorth> how do I push to production?
18:51:08  <Alberth> I'd just pick sqlite or so, then build something sort of proto
18:51:47  <Alberth> we may need som e path from there though, at some point we'll have to use/configure "real" systems
18:51:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: you do have the bananas vm :)
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18:51:57  <andythenorth> I do
18:53:28  <Alberth> but you don't need that all immediately
18:53:39  <Alberth> imho
18:55:39  <frosch123> this version of palapeli does not seem to support tile rotation
18:56:11  <frosch123> i consider this lack more than weird
18:56:27  <frosch123> are you sure that game was not written by some ai or alien
18:56:46  <frosch123> i can't imagine someone having done a physical puzzle to leave that out
18:57:00  <Alberth> quite :)
18:57:11  <Alberth> and with opengl, it's quite trivial to add
18:57:59  <frosch123> also i observed that children at age 2 can easily find the right piece, but have a hard time figureing out the rotation
18:58:05  <Alberth> I find it quite convenient without rotation :p
18:59:12  <Alberth> I have that too with left/right, especially when you look at the map while moving south :)
18:59:54  <andythenorth> so what’s broken about OpenTTD web stuff?
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19:00:02  <andythenorth> other than list of bananas features from frosch123
19:00:07  <Alberth> old, aged, mostly
19:01:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: bananas is the most custom thing we have
19:01:25  <frosch123> everything else is kind of standard which you can also get elsewhere
19:02:16  <andythenorth> can we just move it all to commodity services?
19:03:30  <Alberth> what I don't get with the first patch in 6053, why isn't the engine count updated recursively?
19:03:37  <Alberth> yet it works
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19:06:14  <Alberth> uint GetGroupNumEngines(CompanyID company, GroupID id_g, EngineID id_e)   :O  it's computed
19:06:52  *** dustinm` has joined #openttd
19:08:39  * andythenorth wonders about commodity bananas :P
19:09:05  *** Gja has quit IRC
19:09:17  <andythenorth> “open source DLC server” got me nothing useful
19:10:07  <Alberth> apache http server :p
19:12:10  <andythenorth> reading json from disk
19:12:12  <andythenorth> job done
19:12:34  <andythenorth> jquery onload() puts the json in the DOM
19:13:25  <andythenorth> or we could build something nice, around established libraries, with a continuous deployment pipeline
19:13:29  <andythenorth> :P
19:17:48  <Alberth> something simple at least would be useful for prototyping
19:18:30  <andythenorth> these days I tend to disagree
19:18:48  * andythenorth has spent 7 years sanitising a web development environment
19:19:26  <andythenorth> it’s preferable, on balance, to work backwards from ‘how will we deploy this'
19:19:46  <andythenorth> and start with tools that can deploy ‘hello world’
19:19:54  <andythenorth> the prototype *always* becomes production
19:19:57  <Wolf01> andythenorth: as you mentioned jquery, how do I cycle the children nodes? I think I'm a special kind of stupid as I was used to do it daily and now I don't remember even how to make a plugin
19:20:25  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I have NFI, I only use jquery under protest
19:21:07  <andythenorth> ;)
19:21:39  <andythenorth> Alberth: I tend to prototype with static html, or a chameleon compile from ‘fake’ python objects
19:22:32  <andythenorth> database stuff tends to be the least important aspect of small web apps
19:22:46  <andythenorth> and it’s common now to use an ORM
19:23:00  <andythenorth> so prototyping with an actual db is a bit overkill
19:23:21  <andythenorth> my opinion is not universally supported :P
19:24:02  <andythenorth> in my world, SQLAlchemy won
19:24:14  <andythenorth> backed by postgres, usually
19:24:55  <andythenorth> one selling point of an ORM is that it can be swapped
19:25:01  <andythenorth> it / the db /s
19:25:31  <andythenorth> so can start with sqlite, and migrate / refactor to postgres etc later
19:27:25  * andythenorth now lost in ORM reviews :P
19:29:48  <_dp_> why not just start with postgres?
19:30:10  * andythenorth doesn’t know
19:30:18  <andythenorth> people like sqlite?
19:31:03  <Wolf01> Why not start with a proper software structure which allows to swap components without changing the code?
19:31:37  <andythenorth> like an ORM o_O
19:31:39  <Wolf01> Like... do it with symfony
19:32:08  <_dp_> isn't symfony php?
19:32:14  <Wolf01> Yes
19:32:16  <andythenorth> that is the downside yes
19:32:18  <blocage> I like to be away from web programming
19:32:52  <andythenorth> web programming is
19:33:00  <andythenorth> unlike OpenTTD :P
19:33:24  <Wolf01> It might still be a shitty language, but developers reduced fragmentation and enhanced the sharing of pre-existing code
19:34:06  <andythenorth> actually I am +1 to moving OpenTTD web platform to PHP
19:34:18  <andythenorth> then I won’t feel any guilt about not working on it
19:34:24  <Wolf01> So you only need to make customizations and all the core is well mantained, secure and compatible with every other project
19:35:42  <frosch123> hmm, so what to use for a puzzle?
19:35:50  <frosch123> ottd screenshot or ottd sourcecode?
19:36:57  <Wolf01> Sorting out ottd sourcecode puzzle might help on closing FS tasks
19:37:35  <blocage> there is a web openttd ?
19:38:06  <Alberth> frosch123: website with wallpapers?
19:38:09  <frosch123> yes, someone crosscompiled it via llvm to javascript
19:38:34  <blocage> frosch123, funny
19:38:46  <frosch123> or something
19:38:53  <Alberth> blocage: it's true
19:39:17  <frosch123> whenever people port sdl1 to something, they port ottd next
19:39:33  <blocage> Alberth, still funny :)
19:39:42  <blocage>
19:39:43  <Alberth> it is indeed
19:39:44  <_dp_> as the only game that still uses it? :p
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19:40:24  <Alberth> as one of the few games that didn't switch to opengl stuff :p
19:41:07  <andythenorth> so what does Bananas actually do?
19:41:18  <andythenorth> it was described to me as ‘horrible’ more or less
19:41:27  <andythenorth> and phenomenally complicated
19:41:33  <andythenorth> which is…unappealing
19:42:05  <Alberth> probably dependency stuff between assets
19:42:16  <Alberth> and messing with version numbering :p
19:44:06  <andythenorth> this is how all idiots fall on their face...
19:44:11  <andythenorth> …but it doesn’t seem very complicated
19:44:19  <andythenorth> there should be a tree of assets
19:44:25  <andythenorth> we need to serve them up when requested
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19:45:35  <andythenorth> _probably_ it can just key on the grfid, without any need for a graph or anything silly
19:45:55  <andythenorth> where is the code? :P
19:46:08  <Alberth> no idea
19:46:12  <andythenorth>;a=summary
19:46:14  <andythenorth> ?
19:46:17  <_dp_> grfid+version at least
19:46:39  <Alberth> hashtag, probably :)
19:46:43  <andythenorth> version is what you need a tree for
19:46:49  <andythenorth> each tree is rooted on a grfid
19:46:55  * andythenorth uses big compsci words :P
19:46:57  <_3298> <Alberth> uint GetGroupNumEngines( -snip- )   :O  it's computed  <-- it is, except there's one place (in autoreplace) where that's not used. fix is in FX#5978 with a few other tiny autoreplace-related things
19:47:21  <andythenorth> each leaf on the tree probably corresponds to some combination of savegame compatibility / other stuff
19:47:42  <Alberth> sorry _3298, but I am tired, leaving for bed soon
19:48:01  * andythenorth same
19:48:04  <Alberth> but post in the issue, so I can read it later
19:48:05  <andythenorth> tiring Monday :P
19:48:23  <_3298> okay, will answer in an FS comment then
19:48:25  <andythenorth> Tuesday-is-Monday in UK this week :P
19:48:31  <Alberth> hmm, you should try to sleep every 24 hours, you know? :p
19:49:16  <_3298> just thought i'd address that thing i saw while reading the logs as usual
19:49:20  <Alberth> ah, some day off :)
19:49:37  <Alberth> _3298: yeah, it's good that you note
19:49:59  <Alberth> I just fail to keep that in memory at this time :p
19:52:23  <andythenorth> frosch123: so how do I put point my OpenTTD at o_O
19:52:42  <andythenorth> -put :P
19:56:01  <frosch123> there is a patch in the vm
19:56:18  <_3298> just one question: what do you mean when you say "what doesn't get changed is current profit"? 'cause in GroupStatistics there's only profit_last_year
19:57:44  <_3298> if you mean the one displayed in the group info panel, that's calculated on the fly (together with occupancy), i.e. nothing i need to touch
19:57:59  <andythenorth> frosch123: it was a straw man question, but you actually patched that far?
19:58:08  <frosch123> yes
19:58:17  <frosch123> i patched everything except the master server
19:58:33  <frosch123> the master server is mysql magic which cannot be directly ported to postgres
19:59:02  <frosch123> like half of it is coded in sql functions with mysql syntax
20:01:28  <frosch123> now idea who is responsible for that :p
20:01:48  <frosch123> possibly there is also cobol from 1960 in there
20:03:43  <andythenorth> you’re not selling me on touching it :(
20:03:56  <andythenorth> can we persuade TB to reimplement it all from scratch? o_O
20:04:01  <andythenorth> he likes that kind of thing
20:04:54  <Alberth> _3298: the point is, you didn't touch it and it works. So why did the things you did touch not work?
20:05:19  <Alberth> and those things that did work, do they use the same mechanism?
20:05:42  <Alberth> engine counts doesn't seem to do that at least
20:06:22  <Alberth> if at all possible, I would prefer a single system for everything, as it makes changing and updating code simpler in the future
20:08:34  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
20:08:44  <Alberth> having different mechanisms to do the same things for different variables is confusing in all sorts of ways
20:08:51  <Alberth> nn
20:08:57  *** Alberth has left #openttd
20:09:18  <Wolf01> So the connection seem stable with just 6db SNR...
20:09:32  <Wolf01> Mistery...
20:27:46  <andythenorth> frosch123: ok, later in the week I try and motivate self to look at bananas :)
20:28:40  <frosch123> well, it would already be good if someone wrote something down
20:28:51  <frosch123> instead of restarting the discussion from scratch every 6 months
20:29:19  <andythenorth> we have the dev docs in wiki?
20:29:30  <andythenorth> or do you mean a spec for improvement?
20:29:59  <frosch123> i guess a list of what is bad, what is good, and what is missing
20:30:12  <andythenorth> roadmap? :P
20:30:20  <frosch123> and after that some rough layout
20:30:40  <frosch123> note: "i do not understand the old thing, let's rewrite it" is no solution
20:30:53  <andythenorth> +1
20:31:05  <andythenorth> that’s one reason I don’t want to touch any web stuff :P
20:31:14  <frosch123> every beginner seems to default to "let's rewrite it"
20:31:37  <andythenorth> it’s a bad argument to say “I have been doing this for x years”
20:31:37  <andythenorth> but
20:31:50  <andythenorth> I have been doing web dev for close to 20 years
20:32:00  <andythenorth> and the problem is not usually writing new code
20:32:13  <andythenorth> the problem is usually deploying it to production, stably, repeatably
20:32:46  <frosch123> my apprentices always tend to ask "can we rewrite this" when they do not understand this
20:32:59  <andythenorth> it’s like codeless code eh? :)
20:33:06  <frosch123> while the higher-level understanding is actually a pre-requisite for rewriting
20:33:36  <andythenorth>
20:33:44  <andythenorth> ^ we literally did that and burnt a whole company
20:33:58  <frosch123> well, it's not even that type of rewrite
20:33:58  <andythenorth> despite 3 or 4 people had probably read that article and similar
20:34:31  <frosch123> it's more like: i need to change the caption of this label, but i do not know how the label is set in this source, can i rewrite the whole business logic?
20:35:07  <andythenorth> there is usually framework-de-jour which can be proposed as a solution also
20:35:14  <andythenorth> “this is hard, we need to switch to x"
20:35:18  <frosch123> it's like "i do not understand pyramid, can i rewrite firs with php?"
20:37:00  <andythenorth> how do you deploy upgrades to bananas?
20:37:12  <andythenorth> I have one patch in production, I think r*bidium did it
20:37:21  <andythenorth> it seemed painful
20:37:39  <frosch123> svn up; /etc/init.d/apache restart ?
20:37:46  <frosch123> no idea, only guessing :)
20:38:11  <frosch123> i think the problem was that the web container cannot see the svn container or something
20:38:20  <andythenorth> dangerous to test live eh? :)
20:39:59  <frosch123> that was the idea for the vm
20:40:10  <frosch123> i also tested everything eints related in a vm
20:40:25  <frosch123> even had a ldap setup for that
20:40:32  <frosch123> and that was a pita
20:41:18  <andythenorth> :|
20:42:20  <frosch123> albert always tested locally
20:42:28  <frosch123> but i consider a vm actually easier
20:42:32  <frosch123> you have the real environment
20:42:45  <frosch123> and with ssh + sshfs, working on it is the same as locally
20:43:11  <andythenorth> I never worked on vms
20:43:16  <andythenorth> often proposed, never implemented
20:43:27  <andythenorth> also docker proposed often
20:43:31  <andythenorth> and vagrant
20:43:48  <frosch123> i am learning docker currently
20:43:58  <frosch123> since tb gave me those scripts
20:44:12  <andythenorth> docker is moderately more interesting to me
20:44:27  <andythenorth> it’s hard to be interested in the web openttd
20:44:42  <andythenorth> seems like nothing new to learn, and a half-assed environment to fight against :)
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20:45:07  <andythenorth> usually I learn a lot from openttd, take it back to work context
20:45:10  <frosch123> anyway, i have 60gib of vm images on my disk
20:45:24  <andythenorth> I might need to d/l them again, I had to migrate laptops
20:45:31  <frosch123> i always use vm to test stuff instead of messing up the host system :)
20:46:53  <frosch123> docker would take less space
20:47:07  <frosch123> but is restricted to same kernel
20:47:22  <frosch123> which is find for me, but maybe not for you
20:47:31  <frosch123> i.e. no linux docker on osx
20:47:42  <frosch123> no win docker on linux
20:47:57  <andythenorth> run docker in virtualbox in a VM :P
20:48:06  <andythenorth> for really sucky performance, and extra networking hassle
20:48:11  <frosch123> i am doing that
20:48:20  <frosch123> i do not install docker on my main machine just for playing
20:48:24  <frosch123> i have docker in a vm
20:48:32  <andythenorth> docker seems like FreeBSD jails
20:48:37  <frosch123> and yes, to run win coker on linux you need a windows vm
20:48:58  <andythenorth> I never looked further into docker, except for reading some satire about naive JS developers who think it provides container security
20:49:04  <frosch123> docker is chroot with the chroot-contents versioned in git or something
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20:49:26  <frosch123> like when building the container, every step is stored in some repository
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20:49:40  <Wolf01> Yeah, disconnected
20:49:44  <andythenorth> so it’s repeatable
20:49:44  <frosch123> so you can replace some change in the middle and it can rebuild the rest from some intermediate state
20:50:10  <frosch123> like as if your whole vm data is stored in a vcs
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20:50:26  <frosch123> you install some new thingie, and rollback in the vcs
20:50:43  <frosch123> or you rebase stuff etc :p
20:51:13  <frosch123> anyway, that's my impression after a few hours looing into it
20:51:17  <frosch123> may be totally off :p
20:51:25  <andythenorth> how do we manage production machines?  is it puppet or ansible or something?
20:51:32  <andythenorth> is that a TB black art?
20:51:45  <frosch123> eints is setup with ansible
20:51:53  <frosch123> the rest is setup with whatever was hip at the time
20:52:10  <frosch123> like the masterserver is from a php/mysql/perl age
20:53:05  <frosch123> i believe eints is the only thing setup via ansible
20:53:30  <frosch123> the new compile farm is supposed to use docker
20:53:34  <frosch123> the old one does not
20:53:53  <frosch123> i believe the old one has a dozen linux vms, all manually setup
20:54:11  <andythenorth> we adopted ansible at work, and things got better
20:54:14  <andythenorth> 2 years ago
20:54:30  <andythenorth> we also built a continuous deployment tool of our own
20:54:44  <frosch123> no idea, i never used it, i only hear admins talking about it
20:55:06  <andythenorth> same, although I read the docs when we adopted it, kind of my job :P
20:55:09  <frosch123> i then match what admins at work talk abuot with what tb or rb ramble about
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20:55:22  <frosch123> and then derive how state-of-the-art the stuff at work may be
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20:58:37  <andythenorth> continuous deployment is, simplifying, a scheduled cron job that looks for new tags, and upgrades the app if it finds one
20:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so, you mean autoupdate
20:59:11  <andythenorth> ours can distinguish RC tags for staging from production tags for live
20:59:46  <andythenorth> it has to know how to manaage supervisord to stop, restart processes in right order
20:59:56  <andythenorth> and how to run any upgrade steps for databases etc
21:00:16  <frosch123> i hope you are not suggesting automatic deployment for the ottd website, so we are really fast when there is a change very few years :p
21:00:18  <andythenorth> it also has rules to not make upgrades in certain time windows, e.g .weekends
21:00:27  <frosch123> *every
21:00:31  <andythenorth> website could be done with static html
21:00:38  <andythenorth> just cut out any framework crap :P
21:01:06  <andythenorth> continuous deployment encourages small, frequent releases by removing pain of going to production :)
21:01:10  <LordAro> ansible is lovely
21:01:12  <frosch123> says the firs author :p
21:01:14  <LordAro> *once* you get it setup
21:01:20  <LordAro> takes a bit of time to get to that point
21:01:30  <andythenorth> FIRS nearly has continuous deploy :)
21:01:42  <andythenorth> if I could teach bundles about musa :P
21:01:50  <frosch123> i was refering to static html and frameworks :)
21:02:05  <andythenorth> no framework in FIRS :)
21:02:10  <frosch123> we have multiple newgrf and gs with "make bananas"
21:02:30  <frosch123> i am sure you can also python-generate some of it
21:02:34  <andythenorth> we do don’t we
21:02:39  <andythenorth> hmm
21:03:10  <andythenorth> I could even automate the forum post, if I gave it my creds :P
21:03:12  <andythenorth> might not do that
21:03:24  <frosch123> LordAro: i guessed the correct power of two to setup the harddisk in my docker vm
21:03:30  <frosch123> i am proud of that :p
21:03:46  <frosch123> set hdd to 16gib, 11 were used
21:04:12  <LordAro> heh
21:04:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: all the "make bananas" require interactive username and password :)
21:04:22  <LordAro> docker is not lightweight
21:04:32  <LordAro> might be interesting to look into lxc/lxd containers
21:04:39  <LordAro> they're only pure linux though
21:04:47  <frosch123> LordAro: well, i just ran tb's stuff unmodified, so it setup 6 debian and 8 ubuntus or something
21:05:51  * andythenorth must to bed
21:05:52  <andythenorth> bye
21:05:53  <LordAro> ah, right
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21:05:57  <LordAro> probably not so bad
21:06:26  <frosch123> i could have commented them out, if i cared :)
21:08:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i found a bunch of old computers at work, which might be athlon 64 (single or dual core)
21:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> think i could do anything useful with those?
21:09:32  <LordAro> i very much doubt it
21:09:50  <frosch123> depend on their case
21:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> tower
21:09:58  <frosch123> maybe you can sit on them
21:10:05  <LordAro> :D
21:10:16  <Eddi|zuHause> questionable :p
21:11:04  <frosch123> also metal stuff is good for emp protection
21:11:24  <frosch123> you know, your neighbors with those parabolic antennas
21:11:47  <frosch123> you never know when they only listen, or when they shoot
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21:16:36  <planetmaker> frosch123, andy: we considered once to actually implement a auto-deployment / upload to bananas on devzone
21:16:41  <planetmaker> But decided against that...
21:16:56  <planetmaker> for whatever reason. Probably "people would want to check their upload"
21:17:30  <planetmaker> the idea was that people allow via musa a devzone account to update their stuff as well
21:18:34  <planetmaker> it likely is easy to setup... if there's a market and use for that... not sure
21:19:03  <planetmaker> I guess it would need more automatic project generation / setup for that to be a thing
21:19:21  <planetmaker> or did move things / repos already to github anyway?
21:20:02  <frosch123> andy and xuusr are the only active projects :)
21:20:34  <frosch123> grfauthors are not tech-safe, so are unlikely to move to github
21:23:03  <frosch123> it's more likely that no-vcs becomes more popular with them
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21:27:37  <planetmaker> yeah, I guess so...
21:27:50  <planetmaker> it always was and probably always will
21:28:30  <planetmaker> until there's a complete web-frontend to making / building NewGRFs where they can just upload their graphics files, edit some text file and have the system generate the grf from taht
21:28:39  <planetmaker> that might make them use it - without noticing
21:31:58  <frosch123> though andy transitioned to fs-moderator instead of working on grf :p
21:36:55  <LordAro> frosch123: help i'm looking at what's been deprecated and removed from django over the last 7 years
21:37:26  <frosch123> do you have the vm?
21:37:33  <LordAro> nah
21:37:38  <LordAro> just looking
21:37:40  <frosch123> it updated it to django as of 2011/12 at least
21:37:41  <LordAro> for now :)
21:39:01  <frosch123> in other words, wrt. django the vm is newer than the life site
21:39:28  <LordAro> heh
21:39:37  <LordAro> probably needs large amounts of rewriting regardless
21:39:56  <frosch123> well, tbh i would focus on bananas
21:40:01  <frosch123> it does not need to be django
21:40:07  <frosch123> it can be whatever, like eints
21:40:33  <frosch123> we only use django for the news items i guess :p
21:41:56  <LordAro> ooh, python with tabs
21:42:01  <LordAro> scary
21:42:23  <frosch123> tabs are for smart people :p
21:42:34  <LordAro> usually i agree
21:42:37  <LordAro> but not with python
21:42:54  <frosch123> python punished people who do not know whitespace :)
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21:54:14  <Wolf01> Should I try docker?
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