Log for #openttd on 4th September 2017:
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06:04:33  <andythenorth> o/
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07:37:40  <V453000> sdf?
07:51:15  <andythenorth> V453000: iz
07:55:14  <V453000> really
07:55:21  <V453000> kind of monday
07:56:55  <andythenorth> Monday as AF
07:58:46  <LordAro> it is monday
07:58:49  <LordAro> my dudes
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08:42:58  <Alkel_U3> I like this particular monday so far
08:43:56  <andythenorth> mine contains more <br /> than I want
08:44:07  <andythenorth> and it’s nobody else’s job to fix them
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09:03:14  <V453000> I'm getting wrecked by blender again :D
09:03:31  <andythenorth> for F?
09:03:37  <V453000> yez
09:03:59  <andythenorth> stop moonlighting on this F thing
09:04:04  <andythenorth> just because it pays you :P
09:04:22  <andythenorth> Yetis feel neglected
09:04:25  <V453000> xd
09:04:31  * andythenorth back to html
09:04:39  <peter1138> F?
09:05:50  <andythenorth> Factorio
09:06:01  <andythenorth> we need a back-to-work bot
09:06:15  <andythenorth> for certain hours of day :P
09:06:48  <crem> If I ever recommended Prison Architect, I've reconsidered it and revoking my recommendation.
09:07:03  <andythenorth> unless I make the websites to sell more stuff, I won’t be able to employ anyone else to make the websites :P
09:07:12  <V453000> stronk recommendation statement right there
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09:10:05  <peter1138> I like this review
09:10:17  <peter1138> Not Recommended:  私は工場で働き、ここにはモンスターがないことを伝えます。
09:10:20  <Wolf01> o/
09:11:33  <Wolf01> Ahah from factorio?
09:13:37  <peter1138> i usually look at reviews
09:13:48  <peter1138> then ignore them, buy the game, install it, then never play it.
09:13:57  <peter1138> stupid humble bundles
09:14:02  <Wolf01> ^
09:15:27  <Wolf01> I follow also indiegala which used to gift games 2 times a week, now my library is full of those 0.99-1.99€ games which I'll never play
09:16:15  <peter1138> i think i had a couple of free games years ago but nothing since
09:17:46  <V453000> I usually ignore new games and just reinstall old games again :D
09:20:52  <__ln__> also, congratulations sweden for your 50 years + 1 day of right-hand side traffic
09:21:01  <__ln__> though i don't see any swedes around here
09:31:13  <Wolf01> Meh, I can't have friends in township... they use android/ios
09:31:51  <andythenorth> I have township on the mac
09:31:57  <andythenorth> kids play it, not me
09:32:01  <andythenorth> it’s cute, but eh
09:32:10  <Wolf01> Yes
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10:11:47  <peter1138> it's 11:11. why am i starving?
10:12:02  <andythenorth> because you haven’t had manchego yet
10:12:12  <Wolf01> It's 12:12 here
10:12:27  <peter1138> that's it
10:12:28  <Wolf01> Lol -> [12:12:12] <Wolf01> It's 12:12 here
10:12:28  <peter1138> it's lunch time
10:12:59  <Wolf01> 1 hour 'til lunch
10:13:00  <__ln__> 13:13 here
10:13:24  <andythenorth> time just don’t stop
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10:31:06  <andythenorth> Wolf01: shall we try and fix NRT merge? o_O
10:31:30  <Wolf01> Let's try it
10:31:45  <Wolf01> Sync master first
10:32:50  <andythenorth> ok
10:33:00  <andythenorth> pushed that
10:33:45  <andythenorth> there’s one lang conflict
10:33:49  <andythenorth> one pathfinder
10:33:51  <andythenorth> one saveload
10:33:59  * andythenorth can’t read dutch
10:34:07  * andythenorth is scared of the other two :P
10:39:59  <Wolf01> "HEAD is now at bad0212" <- it's BAD! XD
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10:41:18  <Wolf01> Mmmh, it's still saying that it can't merge because uncommitted changes... no changes, already reset --hard and still the error
10:41:47  <__ln__> git on windows?
10:41:55  <Wolf01> Yes
10:42:40  <__ln__> try: echo '* binary' > .gitattributes ; git checkout .
10:44:19  <Wolf01> And?
10:46:03  <__ln__> that's it, problem solved if all went well
10:46:49  <Wolf01> binary' is not a valid attribute name: .gitattributes:1
10:48:02  <__ln__> odd
10:48:36  <Wolf01> Eh, echo echoes all
10:49:12  <Wolf01> Removed the ' and worked (I executed the commands one by onw)
10:49:15  <Wolf01> *one
10:49:45  <__ln__> err, no you don't want to remove the quotes, as we want a literal * in the file, not a list of files.
10:50:28  <Wolf01> I created the .gitattributes by hand
10:51:46  <__ln__> its contents should be "* binary" without the quotes
10:51:51  <Wolf01> Yes
10:52:02  <Wolf01> That's what I wrote in it
10:52:21  <Wolf01> echo 'stuff' > file writes 'stuff' into the file
10:54:43  <__ln__> indeed
10:54:45  <Wolf01> I can't understand the conflict diff... if only it tells me where it conflicts and not all the changes
10:59:00  <Wolf01> Oh found it, the file map didn't show the right colour for conflicts
11:00:35  <Wolf01> Stupid conflict... it's because it diffs between half of the top line and half of the bottom line, and the bottom line changed
11:01:20  <LordAro> there's usually a way you can tell it to not care so much
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11:04:04  <nekomaster> Hello everyone
11:07:09  <andythenorth> lo nekomaster
11:07:25  <nekomaster> I'm having a weird issue with my Belgian Train Set project :/
11:07:33  <nekomaster> Nothing appears unless NuTracks is loaded
11:08:21  <andythenorth> railtypes eh
11:08:46  <nekomaster> I only have 4 wagons right now but the MU Wagons dont appear even though they're set for "RAIL"
11:09:12  <nekomaster> and I set MTRO type in the Railtypes.pnml to default to ELRL if no 3rd rail or metro track is available
11:14:19  <nekomaster> I never had this issue with my NARS Add-on set when I started making it with 2cc Trains code
11:14:34  <andythenorth> got an engine for the wagons?
11:14:41  <nekomaster> Not right now
11:17:37  <Wolf01> I think $friend will come soon to ask for a solution for the grf scanning problem
11:17:55  <nekomaster> GRF scanning problem?
11:18:24  <Wolf01> Yes, the scan ottd does at the start
11:18:34  <nekomaster> Yeah, and t heres an issue?
11:19:10  <Wolf01> Yes
11:19:28  <Wolf01> The game hangs on it
11:19:35  <Wolf01> No big grf
11:19:40  <Wolf01> It just hangs
11:19:47  <nekomaster> I duno if I've had that issue before
11:20:14  <nekomaster> On slower computers though it does seem to hang for me if it can't find a bunch of GRF's already setup in a Preset
11:22:01  <Wolf01> andythenorth: it was the easiest conflict merge I ever found...
11:22:25  <Wolf01> With tortoiseSVN it should have merged automatically
11:24:53  <V453000> automating 1 minute task for the last 1.5 hour
11:24:56  <V453000> efficiency
11:29:34  <Wolf01> Mmmh, something is broken in saveload
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11:36:07  <Wolf01> Oh, that doesn't matter, even forcing the subtype it still throws the error
11:37:17  <Wolf01> A nice division by 0 when trying to create an electric spark effect
11:37:25  <andythenorth> :)
11:37:59  <Wolf01> I thought it was because the vehicle was of the wrong type
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11:43:07  <Wolf01> Need frosch for fix
11:44:27  <nekomaster> Ok, so not only do the MU/Metro Wagons not appear without NuTracks, but my first steam engine doesnt appear at all (even though the compiler had no issues)
11:46:16  <nekomaster> I have no idea why nothing works
11:51:00  <Wolf01> I can't understand why a vehicle has 0 max speed
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11:52:36  <andythenorth> effect vehicles?
11:52:38  <andythenorth> don’t move?
11:54:39  <Wolf01> I think the roadsubtype compatibility is set wrong on load
11:55:40  <eekee> is there a way to have snow-capped mountains with temperate grass? 'smooth snow transition' grf claims to set arctic grass to temperate if you set a parameter, but it's unclear and setting the first parameter to '1' doesn't do it
11:56:12  <Wolf01> It puts temperate grass on arctic
11:56:16  <andythenorth> there is a grf for Alpine climate
11:56:26  <andythenorth> but it doesn’t work with lots of things
11:56:32  <andythenorth> lots / some
11:56:38  <nekomaster> OpenGFX landscape also has an alpine setting
11:56:44  <andythenorth> quite fun though, farms close in winter in Alpine
11:57:17  <eekee> oh nice :)
11:57:36  <nekomaster> you can also set the Snowline for winter and summer in OpenGFX
11:57:49  <nekomaster> I tend to have it set to the lowest it will go for Winter to simulate a Canadian winter
11:58:03  <nekomaster> during the Summer though only really tall stuff has snow
11:58:11  <nekomaster> Like the Rocky Mountains
11:58:39  <eekee> ohhh
11:58:59  <nekomaster> Also I'm still having an issue with my Steam engine not appearing at all
12:03:43  <eekee> i'm more tired than i thought -- i'm trying to debug my life, things are wierd at the mo, lol
12:05:40  <nekomaster> I have the Steam engine set for RAIL and Rail is defined in the railtypetable.pnml, but its not appearing ingame
12:05:59  <nekomaster> its suppose to appear in 1835 and its 2001 in game
12:06:54  <eekee> when is it supposed to disappear?
12:07:13  <nekomaster> 40 years after 1835, but I have "Vehicles never expire" on
12:07:30  <eekee> did you try the 'resetengines' command?
12:07:46  <nekomaster> yeah, I set the game to 1840 and nothing still
12:07:52  <eekee> ah :/
12:08:07  <eekee> is the rail type case sensitive?
12:08:12  <nekomaster> yes
12:08:13  <nekomaster> RAIL
12:08:31  <nekomaster> RAIL refers to the original default RAIL
12:08:35  <eekee> ah cool
12:08:58  <eekee> i'm out of guesses
12:09:17  <nekomaster> This is something I imagine I'm going to need help from a NML Coder that knows how to code a trainset
12:09:33  <nekomaster> this never happened to me before like with my NARS Add-on Set 2cc
12:10:58  <eekee> wierd yeah
12:12:34  <andythenorth> nekomaster: got a railtype table in the grf?
12:12:39  <nekomaster> yes
12:12:40  * andythenorth just guessing stuff
12:12:44  <andythenorth> dunno
12:12:46  <nekomaster> it came with the 2cc Trains code
12:12:46  * andythenorth back to work
12:15:11  <V453000> br br br /
12:15:17  <V453000> <>
12:15:19  <nekomaster> what?
12:15:28  <V453000> slugs
12:16:23  <andythenorth> yes
12:16:42  <V453000> excellent
12:16:46  <V453000> easy agreement
12:16:46  <V453000> iz
12:17:30  <nekomaster> maybe someone can look at my code and see whats screwing up my Special wagons and my only Steam Engine
12:17:31  <nekomaster>
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12:41:04  <Wolf01> Mmmh, why does VEH_ROAD has gcache.cache_max_speed in one point and gcache_cached_max_track_speed in another point?
12:41:57  <Wolf01> Both are instances of RoadVehicle
12:42:57  <peter1138> one is the vehicle's max speed and the other is tile-based max speed?
12:43:08  <Wolf01> Ok
12:43:10  <peter1138> guessing
12:43:25  <Wolf01> Could be, then the problem is in the tile and not in the vehicle
12:43:47  <Wolf01> But both show the right max speed
12:44:19  <Wolf01> And I get 0 when I need it as divisor
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12:52:17  <Wolf01> Ahahah I disconnected an articulated tram
12:52:28  <V453000> nice
12:53:22  <Wolf01> Ok, I could guess what it happened, the second part of the tram has max speed of 0 but tried to create an electric spark effect
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12:54:06  <Wolf01> Because setting the cached max speed didn't crash on effect but the rear part started to run faster than the front part
12:54:26  <Wolf01> So the front part recalculated the real max speed, the back part didn't
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12:56:08  <_maddy> is it possible to change newgrf settings while game is already running?
12:56:19  <andythenorth> not reliably
12:56:28  <_maddy> tell me the unreliable way
12:57:01  <andythenorth>
12:57:14  <andythenorth> if you do that, you don’t get any support ;)
12:57:23  <andythenorth> also it *does* crash a lot
12:57:33  <Wolf01> Also, why if I disable "full detail" it still trying to create the spark effect?
12:57:37  <andythenorth> forums posters will say “I do it all the time and it’s fine"
12:57:47  <andythenorth> but I do it all the time, and I crash the game a lot
12:57:59  <andythenorth> Wolf01: full detail is just fences + animated blitter
12:58:10  <Wolf01> Also full animation
12:58:19  <andythenorth> ah, no they’re two separate things
12:58:23  <andythenorth> and I was wrong
12:58:35  <Wolf01> I disabled all and still get that stuff
12:58:51  <andythenorth> full detail is just fences no?
12:58:58  <andythenorth> and full animation is animated blitter
12:59:02  <andythenorth> docs will know :P
12:59:10  <Wolf01> Useless setting
12:59:32  <Wolf01> I'll move all the separate things to Extended transparency toolbar
12:59:36  <Wolf01> You do the icons
13:00:21  <andythenorth> full detail is daft
13:00:34  <andythenorth> full animation is very useful, at least while the blitter is still shafted
13:00:51  <Wolf01> Yes, that could stay
13:00:57  <_maddy> andythenorth: thanks, it seems to work, and didn't crash.. just needed to change one setting, I would have had to restart anyway otherwise
13:01:17  <andythenorth> Wolf01: the blitter might get fixed :P
13:01:17  <andythenorth>
13:01:57  <Wolf01> Nice
13:02:25  <V453000> I dare repeat the most glaring issue: gui switch between 8bpp and 32bpp
13:02:31  <Wolf01> Now... why the rear part doesn't get the right values is a mistery
13:03:09  * andythenorth considers starting a Patch Pack
13:03:11  <andythenorth> AndyPatch
13:04:22  <Wolf01> Yes
13:05:46  * Wolf01 goes out for a walk
13:34:01  <LordAro> andythenorth: AndyThePatch
13:34:57  <V453000> =D
13:35:01  <V453000> that's going to be horrible
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13:44:47  <eekee> i've gone off 32bpp for ottd
13:44:55  <andythenorth> I never got on
13:44:58  <eekee> :)
13:45:48  <peter1138> we should remove it
13:46:03  <peter1138> and 2x/4x zoom
13:46:05  <andythenorth> you won’t though :)
13:46:14  <eekee> btw, can a grf add road types? i'm thinking of rough tracks suitable for tractors or, say, cattle droves, but not busses
13:46:17  <andythenorth> MinimalOpenTTD
13:46:24  <eekee> extra zoom is vital to me :D
13:47:20  <andythenorth> peter1138: I can’t convince anybody to do 1-in, 1-out on features :P
13:47:46  <V453000> if you remove x4 and 32bpp after I have been working on it for 4 years, there will be blood XD
13:47:56  <eekee> hahaha i'm sure
13:48:08  <V453000> and it might also save my sanity
13:48:53  <eekee> i kinda know the feeling. i've had to drop 90% of my coding ambitions for the sake of my sanity
13:50:30  <V453000> I cut down a lot and progress slower than I would like, but progress. And that's what's counts eventually :)
13:50:37  <eekee> yeah :)
13:51:12  <peter1138> i should revisit terrain generation
13:51:22  <eekee> could be fun ^.^
13:51:23  <peter1138> make variety work properly f.e.
13:53:50  <andythenorth> peter1138: even :P
13:54:44  <eekee> nothing to do except sit & watch the sailing ships go by while i wait for the money to build up. i accidentally picked just the right starting conditions for a game in my very tired state lol
13:55:22  <peter1138> what year?
13:55:26  <eekee> 1850
13:55:35  <peter1138> nice
13:56:05  <eekee> ty
14:05:30  <V453000> that would be incredible peter1138
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14:10:10  <andythenorth> :o
14:10:16  <andythenorth> why is Steam client so bad
14:11:31  <peter1138> they're too busy working on HL3 to fix it
14:15:46  <peter1138> like i'm too busy playing minecraft to fix ottd
14:20:08  <eekee> i've been thinking for weeks, i could start looking at ottd's code, but i'm too busy playing it :)
14:22:20  <peter1138> don't
14:22:25  <peter1138> you'll stop enjoying it
14:23:47  <andythenorth> errr
14:24:00  <andythenorth> why does Steam want to register with assistive devices control?
14:24:49  * andythenorth gives up
14:26:30  <eekee> peter1138: :)
14:30:48  <peter1138> andythenorth, maybe big picture mode
14:31:02  <andythenorth> it started crashing
14:31:15  <andythenorth> I don’t want to play Euro Truck Simulator enough to figure that out :P
14:33:25  <peter1138> ETS2 is better
14:36:46  <andythenorth> actually that’s what I was trying
14:36:47  <andythenorth> crashy
14:36:53  <andythenorth> ETS 1 is a bit fuzzy
14:43:10  <Alkel_U3> \Want to drive a truck? No better game than Big Rigs
14:44:53  <crem> If only you could drive a truck in openttd...
14:45:05  <peter1138> 50 second intro... what is this
14:47:18  <V453000> omg not this retard again
14:50:40  <Alkel_U3> I hope that was addressing A. V. Nerd and not me :P
14:52:23  <eekee> erf... how do you keep a town sweet without any road vehicles? just pick up any cargo within its area?
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14:53:18  <Cadadadry> hi folks
14:54:04  <Alkel_U3> iirc you need 5 active stations of any kind for maximum positive effect on the city
14:54:07  <Alkel_U3> hello
14:54:25  <Cadadadry> wishing to try and play cooperation, who's in ?
14:55:07  <eekee> Alkel_U3: interesting, ty
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14:56:36  <Cadadadry> Are you guys always playing solo, or not playing any more ?
14:57:09  <Alkel_U3> eekee: that's off the top of my had, mind you. Last time I used information like that was when I played on Luukland servers and that is a few years ago and I don't guarantee it to be correct :-)
14:57:36  <peter1138> i liked playing casual coop
14:58:01  <Alkel_U3> yeah, but solo is less time restricted :-)
14:58:16  <eekee> Alkel_U3: ok :D i just want to build something to pick up my rating after i destroy all the trees lol. i built 2 1x1 train stations
14:58:22  <eekee> i'm a soloist
14:58:31  <Cadadadry> sure, but rewarding less pleasure too AFAIK
14:58:40  <peter1138> build something before your destroy them ;p
14:59:23  <Alkel_U3> eekee: I hope you have a newgrf stations with wooden platforms so you can reuse those poor trees :P
14:59:34  <eekee> :D
14:59:48  <eekee> i have actually, but the towns don't care lol
15:00:12  <eekee> peter1138: that's what i do. usually build bus or tram
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15:04:43  <Cadadadry> Where can I find a list of newgrf compatible with each other ?
15:05:17  <Cadadadry> or a list of unusual not compatible newgrf's ?
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15:05:47  <andythenorth> Cadadadry: there’s no list like that
15:05:51  <Alberth> o/
15:05:52  <andythenorth> there is a nice list in Wiki
15:05:55  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
15:06:17  <andythenorth>
15:06:26  <Cadadadry> cheers andy :)
15:07:20  <andythenorth> broadly, compatibility only arises for
15:07:28  <andythenorth> (1) old grfs that do things in outdated ways
15:07:36  <andythenorth> (2) industry grfs
15:07:41  <andythenorth> (3) house grfs
15:08:04  <andythenorth> most vehicle sets compatibility is zero problem
15:08:24  <andythenorth> although you might need to match up railtypes grfs with train grfs
15:08:28  <Alberth> except for artistic clashes :p
15:08:33  <andythenorth> [shrug]
15:08:38  <andythenorth> look at all my terrible fonts :)
15:08:43  <andythenorth> :P
15:08:54  <andythenorth> newgrf is pretty similar to fonts
15:09:57  <eekee> firs will tell you if a grf clashes with it
15:10:05  <eekee> not many do
15:10:07  <Alberth> often :)
15:10:31  <Cadadadry> what is firs ?
15:11:01  <andythenorth>
15:11:46  <Alberth> oh dear :)
15:11:54  <Cadadadry> I've been DLing a lot of newgrf's a few days ago, selected all starting with "UK" and played a game that way... But I'm wondering what I can choose next to add...?
15:12:13  <andythenorth> so many choices :)
15:12:50  <Alberth> start with a few, so you can better understand what each grf does
15:13:30  <V453000> download 65 of them and file a bug report
15:13:37  <eekee> firs is firs industry replacement set. gives quite a different feel to the game
15:13:44  <V453000> specifically mention andythenorth and everything being his fault
15:13:45  <Cadadadry> just added tramways and buffers last night...  Waiting for the year (?) to see tramways getting available...
15:13:46  <V453000> win prizes
15:13:53  <Alberth> :O
15:14:11  <eekee> Cadadadry: did you add a tram grf too?
15:14:32  <Cadadadry> I guess so, I can check if you want
15:15:05  <Cadadadry> btw I always start game in 1830 :D
15:15:08  <crem> Btw is there a pigeon newgrf for mail transport?
15:15:08  <andythenorth> such trams
15:15:18  <Cadadadry> lol
15:15:36  <eekee> hehe crem! i think one could be made
15:15:40  <Cadadadry> I know one pigeon named "e_"
15:16:12  <crem> Maybe if you treat them as airplanes which need airport...
15:16:24  <crem> then it should be easy
15:16:36  <eekee> crem: oh yeah
15:17:20  <Alberth> default airports exist from 1960 :)
15:17:26  <Cadadadry> thx andy :)
15:19:14  <eekee> i mostly like egrvts, but its biggest passenger trams get too small and too slow-loading late in the game. i've taken to loading an old 2cc tram set and 'long vehicles v4 (2008)'
15:22:16  <_dp_> eekee, Alkel_U3, 5 stations limit is for town growth, for authority rating it's the more the merrier
15:22:34  <_dp_> on btpro people sometimes do like 20+ stations to get rating to 1000 rly fast
15:22:41  <eekee> _dp_: sweet, thanks!
15:23:32  <_dp_> eekee, just keep in mind they have to be active stations (1 load/unload in 50 days), inactive ones hurt rating
15:24:11  <_dp_> small towns sometimes don't provide enough passengers to sustain 20 active stations
15:24:13  <eekee> _dp_: yeah, i saw inactive ones hurt rating
15:24:22  <eekee> hehehe indeed not
15:24:50  <Alkel_U3> _dp_: interesting, I didn't know that was different
15:24:56  <eekee> 'the more the merrier' explains why i can't seem to do wrong by big towns
15:26:32  <Alkel_U3> "sure you can reshape the city center's hill into a crater so long as you keep those 100+ tram stops" :-)
15:27:17  <_dp_> Alkel_U3, and you don't even need those stops if you want to reshape it into a forest :p
15:27:45  <Alkel_U3> _dp_: forest is not usually the goal in TT :P
15:27:57  <eekee> Alkel_U3: ahahhaha yeah
15:28:17  <eekee> oh yeah coz planting trees helps
15:28:42  <_dp_> Alkel_U3, I'm starting to doubt that looking at authorities behavior in openttd
15:28:45  <Alkel_U3> I bet if people could they'd just put concrete slabs on every tile possible :D
15:29:24  <Alkel_U3> yeah, but that's only a tool to allow more destruction
15:29:27  <eekee> i wouldn't
15:34:31  <peter1138> TLS in Linux kernel 4.13. What could go wrong?
15:39:03  <milek7> nothing?
15:40:04  <peter1138> probably
15:43:53  <eekee> already i've had linux and freebsd start acting up after visiting web pages with microsoft adverts -- not joking
15:44:19  <andythenorth> get some tinfoil :)
15:44:22  <andythenorth> that will help
15:44:40  <eekee> i'm not messing about
15:45:55  <andythenorth> it’s a nice trolling attempt :)
15:46:02  <andythenorth> well played
15:48:00  <eekee> you're the one who's trolling. i tried believing all this sort of talk was just paranoia, but there's just way too much evidence for all the major corporations in computing just being incredibly nasty by normal standards.
15:48:23  <andythenorth> ok let’s take the claim seriously
15:48:32  <andythenorth> 1. do you have Flash player enabled?
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15:51:33  <eekee> on freebsd, no, but given the rotten quality of web standards and sloppy attitude toward security considerations ("progress" trumps security every time), whether or not flash is installed is hardly relevant any more
15:52:04  <andythenorth> do you work in the industry?
15:52:24  <eekee> associated with some who do, and who take quality seriously, for a long time
15:52:25  <andythenorth> coding something like the network stack, browsers, or web software?
15:54:41  <_dp_> andythenorth, are you trying to say there is no way to hack a browser or what? :p
15:55:08  <andythenorth> I’m trying to connect ‘microsoft adverts’ with ‘linux and freebsd start acting up’
15:55:18  <andythenorth> there are so many potential vectors
15:55:28  <andythenorth> but are many of them plausible?
15:55:43  <eekee> one of my friends is a kernel dev, another worked his way up through sysadmin jobs (including web shops) to administer some of the top supercomputers in the world,
15:56:00  <eekee> another works in telecom but 15-20 years ago he was the bad guy and he says he knew nothing at the time; just downloaded stuff and got into linux kernels everywhere lol
15:56:20  <eekee> sounds like he was an amateur but i didn't want to ask too much
15:56:57  <_dp_> andythenorth, well, techically it is possible to write an virus that infects via ads and does bad stuff to system
15:57:02  <andythenorth> yes
15:57:13  <_dp_> andythenorth, how plausible is it that's a different question
15:57:15  <andythenorth> well, usually malware, not virus
15:57:26  <eekee> ayup, malware
15:57:53  <andythenorth> if these microsoft ads included ‘download a binary and put in your sudo password'
15:57:58  <andythenorth> then I can believe it
15:58:05  <eekee> lol no
15:59:44  <eekee> it was primarily the graphics of my linux & freebsd machines which was affected; it got very slow for no clear reason. doesn't the web now include pretty-much direct access to load shader programs?
16:00:24  <andythenorth> webgl or so?
16:00:29  <eekee> yeah
16:00:33  <andythenorth> DoS your machine?
16:00:34  <eekee> microsoft's motive here would be just to make competing 'desktop' systems look bad
16:00:35  <andythenorth> plausible
16:00:53  <andythenorth> was it Firefox?
16:00:56  <eekee> yeah
16:01:10  <andythenorth> [shrug]
16:01:12  <andythenorth> hi Firefox
16:01:15  <andythenorth> bye bye memory
16:01:19  <_dp_> hm, and now my machine got slow too...
16:01:20  <eekee> hehe
16:01:23  <_dp_> definitely a virus :p
16:01:24  <andythenorth> Firefox will sit and spin my fans all day long
16:01:40  <andythenorth> just from being logged into Twitter in a single window
16:01:47  <andythenorth> [shrug]
16:01:51  <eekee> oh twitter is nasty!
16:01:59  <eekee> i mean because they're stupid
16:02:04  <andythenorth> in fact, OpenTTD Coop devzone will drain my battery if I leave it in a tab
16:02:06  <andythenorth> so eh
16:02:15  <andythenorth> must be evil
16:02:58  <eekee> they tried to push loads of stuff into the browser after slowing down their servers with loads of ruby nonsense
16:03:43  * andythenorth is glad to have a nice armchair
16:03:46  <andythenorth> for this expertise
16:03:50  <eekee> :D
16:04:00  <_dp_> didn't twitter go back to server-side rendering already?
16:04:16  <eekee> maybe, it did seem to get faster a few months ago
16:04:22  <_dp_> that's probably not how is it called but whatever :p
16:04:36  <eekee> maybe more than a few months, i got fed up with keeping up
16:04:38  <andythenorth> _dp_: I think their single-page app fell down in a pile of client performance problems
16:04:39  <_dp_> nah, it was more like few years ago
16:04:42  <andythenorth> but I’m only guessing
16:04:53  <andythenorth> they probably made a video or something
16:05:23  <_dp_> yeah I remember seeing a post about it
16:05:28  <eekee> i know they implemented avatars as web fonts. ?.?
16:07:10  <eekee> computing's one big stinking pile of underhandedness and "what could go wrong", as far as i'm concerned. openttd lol is about the sanest software i interact with any more
16:07:59  <eekee> i even went over to the dark side; got win10 put on my pc lol
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16:08:59  <eekee> oh there's plan 9 too, that's from another planet, but i don't use it much any more
16:09:25  * _dp_ rly hope openttd isn't the sanest software on my pc :p
16:10:22  <eekee> hahaha
16:13:11  <eekee> it's a game, and a free one at that, but i think it's had a lot more sense and understanding put into it than... certainly any free tablet game
16:13:20  <andythenorth> I dispute that
16:13:22  <andythenorth> I’ve read the code
16:13:40  * andythenorth bbl
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16:17:03  <eekee> i'm still impressed by multiple viewports; it seems nobody even bothers implementing anything half as smart as that any more. also adjusting something in one window and seeing it change in others; that's like, come & gone.
16:17:45  <eekee> not that there's much call for these on small tablet screens
16:18:59  <_dp_> idk multiple viewports seem pretty useless to me
16:19:07  <_dp_> except mb for watching multiple companies
16:19:25  <_dp_> but that's not even in vanilla
16:21:03  <eekee> oh i mean the vehicle windows & everything. the other day i was placing signs in the newspaper popups; all the views just work the same!
16:23:06  <eekee> i was also using industry windows for oil rigs to add ships as needed while working on something else. kinda got a bit hectic though.
16:29:49  <Alberth> it also fails every now and then, getting newspapers about "First train arrives Foo station", and seeing a train driving on regular tracks
16:30:21  <Wolf01>  <eekee> btw, can a grf add road types? i'm thinking of rough tracks suitable for tractors or, say, cattle droves, but not busses <- sorry for the delay: yes, a grf could add road types, but we must remove shiops and canals
16:30:35  <Wolf01> Ships too
16:31:00  <eekee> ohhhh! what's the link?
16:31:39  <Wolf01>
16:31:41  <Alberth> /me wonders what NoShips will bring
16:32:39  <peter1138> no ships
16:33:00  <Wolf01> It's NotShips BTW
16:33:14  * eekee read read
16:34:52  <eekee> ooh OFFR
16:36:26  <Wolf01> also
16:36:56  <Wolf01> also
16:40:54  <eekee> ty for links :)
16:43:36  <peter1138> git pull woo
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16:56:39  <andythenorth> I’ve already made NoShips
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17:12:10  <eekee> are there plans/hopes/dreams for new ship code?
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17:23:16  <Wolf01> eekee: yes, to remove ships
17:27:04  <eekee> no code != new code :)
17:27:34  <Wolf01> It's refactoring, purge things which don't work
17:28:01  <eekee> what doesn't work about ships?
17:28:06  <Wolf01> Ships
17:28:33  <eekee> i'm confused. XD i've successfully used ships in my last 5 games
17:29:42  <Wolf01> But they don't work, 10000000 ships on one tile, no collisions, shitty performance with pathfinding
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17:31:02  <Wolf01> Just ask andythenorth and he will tell you better why ships don't work
17:31:39  <eekee> no collisions is a bit sad, but so are 45deg bends :)
17:31:57  <eekee> i'll ask him about it sooner or later
17:33:46  <peter1138> it was andythenorth looking at ship path reservation, no?
17:33:51  <peter1138> or wolf
17:33:54  <Wolf01> Samu
17:33:55  <peter1138> can't remember now :S
17:33:56  <peter1138> ohhh
17:33:57  <peter1138> samu
17:33:59  <andythenorth> samu
17:34:03  <peter1138> who is not here
17:34:04  <Wolf01> Samu
17:34:14  <peter1138> he was barking up the wrong tree though ;D
17:34:24  <Wolf01> Yes
17:34:25  <andythenorth>
17:34:40  <_dp_> careful, don't accidentally summon him :p
17:34:49  <peter1138> why not?
17:35:17  <Wolf01> The only bad part about it is that he wanted to continue straight on his own idea, even after discussing it here
17:35:22  <Wolf01> *him
17:35:58  <eekee> hmm
17:36:31  <Wolf01> Like the wagon running cost based on length of the train and type of engine to try to fix the constant cost of the base game...
17:36:46  <peter1138> heh
17:37:00  <Wolf01> And once you set up a train, you have another different constant
17:37:20  <eekee> wat lol
17:37:58  <Wolf01> Also pointless, as you can do it right now with a grf
17:38:11  <eekee> oh he's one of those
17:39:34  <Wolf01> I would like to have an empty vanilla game and implement everything as newgrf: vehicles, infrastructures, algorythms
17:39:56  <eekee> yeah...
17:40:11  <peter1138> newgrf terrain generation?
17:40:15  <andythenorth> maybe
17:40:17  <eekee> haha
17:40:22  <andythenorth> why?
17:40:25  <eekee> that could be very cool
17:40:26  <andythenorth> is it that much slower? :P
17:40:28  <Wolf01> If you are able to put terragenesis on a grf, why not?
17:40:37  <andythenorth> it’s just some tile loop bollocks, no?
17:40:41  <eekee> lunar terrain generator grf :D
17:40:48  <Wolf01> But you should be able to set different terragenesis rules with a grf
17:41:54  <Wolf01> As far as I've read the code, you can already define (they are hardcoded) the cut off for desert and arctic mountains
17:41:56  <eekee> now imagining a grf handling ship collisions XD
17:42:13  <Wolf01> Just move them to a grf, voilà: different desert, different mountains
17:42:14  <peter1138> when i last went through the tgp code i found the perlin method was a bit shitty
17:42:18  <peter1138> but i don't remember the details :(
17:42:45  <Wolf01> IIRC it made stripes around all the map and other artifacts
17:42:56  <andythenorth> it does some pointless stuff IIRC
17:43:09  <eekee> tgp? terragenesis?
17:43:15  <peter1138> it's non standard but IS much faster than regular perlin
17:43:18  <peter1138> yeah
17:43:23  <Wolf01> TGP terragenesis perlin noise
17:43:29  <eekee> ah :)
17:43:52  <peter1138> 4096x4096 takes minutes to generate with unoptimised perlin
17:44:04  <eekee> oh dear
17:44:32  <andythenorth> why is 4096x4096?
17:44:39  <eekee> is 1024x1024 more reasonable? that's the largest size at which i find save time reasonable anyway
17:44:40  <andythenorth> 2048x2048 would have been enough
17:44:48  <andythenorth> but we had to go to 11 eh
17:45:05  <Wolf01> BTW, I would like to give it a try, I don't think that grf is the right way, but some other scripting or even just yaml/json to set values could be the way
17:45:09  <eekee> there's some unexpected straightness & Vs in my current map, but it's non-terrible
17:45:47  <eekee> so long as i can download it from bananas, i don't care what format it's in ;)
17:46:01  <_dp_> gs can mapgen a bit, but not terragen afaik
17:46:09  <_dp_> and newgrf sucks :p
17:46:14  <Wolf01> You can already download a lot of stuff from bananas
17:46:39  <Wolf01> Yeah, pointless to extend grf for something different than graphics
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17:48:32  <eekee> sweet
17:49:53  <_dp_> hmmm, can gs write files? if so it could generate png with heightmap and start new game with it xD
17:50:12  <peter1138> wolf, NoTGP?
17:50:50  <Wolf01> Nah, NotHardcodedSettings
17:50:53  <Wolf01> Notconstants
17:51:02  <peter1138> changing the settings doesn't really add much
17:51:04  <Wolf01> NotMagicNumbers
17:51:45  <Wolf01> NotExternalizeTheCode
17:53:37  * peter1138 accidentally fires up minecraft instead
17:54:11  <Wolf01> For example, take tgp.cpp, the HeightMapSineTransform(height_t h_min, height_t h_max)
17:54:13  <andythenorth> NotSteve
17:55:01  <Wolf01> There is the fheight variable which could be changed to have different effect on TGP
17:55:16  <peter1138> annoying problem with landscape generation is the lack of cliffs
17:55:42  <peter1138> big height differentials are always smoothed out
17:55:44  <eekee> haha! i haven't thought about that since '05, i think
17:59:16  <eekee> i can't imagine playing ottd without ships. i'm fine without canals, and i do at times replace ships with trains, but...
17:59:42  <Wolf01> A problem with big height differences is that terrain in the game is smooth, you can't have discontinuous points, a 64 levels tall mountain fills a 256^2 map
18:00:00  <peter1138> basically the same issue
18:00:33  <eekee> oh yes! i was just thinking about the mountain height issue as i started a game today, but didn't think of cliffs
18:01:43  <Wolf01> With more slopes (0.5x, 1x, 2x and even vertical ones) you could fix that problem, but then you wouldn't be able to see what you are building on the back of a mountain and you will need map rotation
18:02:03  <peter1138> or transparency
18:02:11  <Wolf01> And I wouldn't speak for the changes needed to handle different levels
18:02:15  <eekee> yeah :)
18:02:22  <eekee> haha
18:02:54  <eekee> what happened to that other game? "the game openttd devs wanted to make" or something
18:02:58  <_dp_> even current mountains are pain in the ass to build on, adding anything more steeper is basically locking off parts of the map
18:03:12  <Wolf01> Yeah, you can use transparency, cut the terrain over some height
18:03:23  <Wolf01> But then you can just go play locomotion
18:03:28  <eekee> yeah
18:03:47  <_dp_> like, how are you even going to do bridges with 2 tile height difference on the ends?
18:04:03  <Wolf01> Fully flexible terrain, station on bridges, bridges over bridges, different curve radius
18:04:09  <eekee> i don't think bridges are relevant
18:04:14  <Wolf01> They are
18:04:39  <eekee> you can already put a bridge end on a slope with 2 tile height difference
18:04:50  <Wolf01> Nope, 1 tile max
18:05:03  <eekee> now i have to start the game again XD
18:05:11  <Wolf01> Ok, there's the double foundation, but only on certain tiles
18:06:55  <Wolf01> I've had a talk with eddi for a fully flexible layered layout which could allow building bridges like on locomotion and place signals and stations on them, that would be really cool... too bad is almost impossible to tell what are you building from a single pov
18:08:50  <eekee> _dp_: is this not what you meant by '2 tile height difference'?
18:09:15  <Wolf01> That's an edge case
18:09:50  <eekee> ?.?
18:09:56  <_dp_> eekee, no, I meant difference of bridge ends, that's just 0 on your picture
18:10:11  <eekee> _dp_: right, yeah, i wouldn't expect that to change
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18:10:42  <Wolf01> Quak
18:10:45  <Wolf01> Need you
18:10:53  <Wolf01> Trams borked in NRT
18:11:24  <Wolf01> Electric sparks make game crash on division by 0 when loading a savegame
18:12:17  <Wolf01> Seem that articulated parts lose the cached_max_track_speed value when reloading
18:14:27  <eekee> haha i just had a mad idea re. ships. (saying it now because i'll have to go for a bit soon.) how about making WETrails (as in NUTS) buildable on water?
18:14:36  <andythenorth> canal cheat
18:14:44  <eekee> :D
18:14:58  <eekee> they could go on land & water
18:15:00  <andythenorth> it’s been done
18:15:04  <eekee> really?
18:15:07  <andythenorth> yup
18:15:32  <Wolf01> Been there, done that
18:15:34  <V453000> plus points for considering NUTS
18:15:41  <eekee> mm... imo if you're going to remove ships, this should be mainline code
18:16:01  <V453000> nobody's going to remove shits
18:16:02  <Wolf01> I would hardcode a check to disable wetrails from NUTS, NRT is the way to go
18:16:03  <eekee> V453000: i use it all the time now :)
18:16:04  <Wolf01> :D
18:16:05  <andythenorth> can build trains on water
18:16:08  <V453000> sick
18:16:10  <Wolf01> <3 V
18:16:53  <V453000> I am so looking forward to my next grf
18:16:59  <V453000> but need to stabilize this shit first :D
18:17:00  <V453000> treez
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18:17:24  <Wolf01> Wait for NRT, I think you can do countless things by abusing it
18:17:35  <V453000> NRT is just road vehicles, no?
18:17:51  <Wolf01> Yes
18:17:53  <eekee> NRT + roads on water would be better in some ways
18:18:10  <V453000> well I can't compose a RV out of segments (engine + wagons)
18:18:17  <Wolf01> But you can do same shit as wetrails and pipes without the hassle of signals
18:18:24  <V453000> heh
18:18:26  <V453000> no :P
18:18:30  <eekee> yeah lack of signals esp.
18:18:55  <Wolf01> Also, bidirectional on same tile
18:18:58  <eekee> otoh signals are sometimes great
18:19:00  <eekee> yes!!
18:19:14  <eekee> been using road tunnels -- <3 hovertrucks btw :)
18:19:50  <Wolf01> I'm waiting for NRT to make a Venice like city and use boats instead of buses
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18:20:16  <eekee> sweet
18:20:30  <V453000> signals are always great, they are the core of why trains are so awesome and timeless to play with
18:20:40  <Wolf01> And in the end:
18:20:56  <eekee> hehe
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18:41:26  <Wolf01> ahaha
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18:42:32  <eekee> hahaha!
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18:51:57  <V453000> I'm starting to hate the amount of trees there is :D
18:53:31  <eekee> on the map or in the code?
18:53:37  <eekee> s/map/terrain/
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18:55:11  <andythenorth> V453000: there are a lot of variants
18:55:14  <andythenorth> growth stages
18:55:16  <andythenorth> dead ones :P
18:55:21  <V453000> yes
18:55:23  <eekee> oh those :)
18:55:25  <V453000> exactly
18:56:42  <V453000> 434 sprites
18:56:44  <V453000> ._.
18:56:50  <eekee> :o
18:57:15  <andythenorth> iz not much forums
18:57:27  <eekee> the original trees are amongst my favourite features of the game
18:57:32  <andythenorth> V453000: BRIX as base set is going to real mess with FIRS :)
18:57:38  <andythenorth> I reuse base set trees a lot
18:57:38  <V453000> well I wreck them eekee
18:57:47  <eekee> nuuuuuu! hehe
18:57:51  <V453000> I know andy, very aware
18:58:05  <V453000> I will check out how it works with firs and I will re-order the IDs accordingly
18:58:16  <V453000> might even let you choose which ones you want where :P
18:58:28  *** minisylf is now known as Sylf
18:58:48  <V453000> need to finish thing first
18:59:45  <andythenorth> such finish
19:00:01  * andythenorth needs to stop html-ing
19:00:05  <andythenorth> eyes boggle
19:02:57  *** glx has joined #openttd
19:02:57  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
19:03:26  *** _maddy has quit IRC
19:04:14  <glx> hello
19:04:27  <andythenorth> did I do it right or wrong?
19:04:29  <andythenorth> lo glx
19:04:48  <V453000>
19:04:55  <V453000> arctic and incomplete temperate
19:04:55  *** Alberth has left #openttd
19:05:47  <eekee> they look kinda fun
19:06:04  <eekee> blender?
19:06:12  <peter1138> arcticulated trees
19:06:13  <eekee> oh, yeah
19:06:19  <eekee> hehe
19:06:42  <peter1138> i like the tree with the red/white circle ;p
19:06:48  <eekee> i can imagine some of them dancing
19:07:17  <eekee> i like the one which looks like it's hugging its own branches
19:07:21  <eekee> lol
19:07:33  <V453000> all of them are hugtrees :)
19:07:34  <V453000> yes blender
19:07:37  <eekee> :D
19:07:52  <V453000> I used 3ds max before but now converted a few years back
19:08:23  <andythenorth> gobsmacking amount of trees
19:08:26  <eekee> bbl, bath time
19:08:29  <V453000> when I realize it's been 2 and a half years since I have been using blender, I can't understand how is BRIX in max still ._.
19:08:42  <V453000> what you see isn't even half andy
19:08:48  <V453000> gobsmacking x2
19:08:50  <V453000> +
19:09:27  <andythenorth> why is airports range?
19:10:48  <V453000> station catchment?
19:10:53  <V453000> range is only in av8 right?
19:11:15  *** Gja has quit IRC
19:11:20  <andythenorth> I couldn’t find it
19:11:42  <andythenorth> tried a couple of versions of 8, and av9
19:11:51  <V453000> did you try parameters?
19:12:03  <andythenorth> yup
19:12:09  <V453000> wtf
19:12:09  <andythenorth> probably got wrong grf
19:12:20  <V453000> I'm not sure if it's glaringly obvious at the first sight
19:12:23  <andythenorth> I have multiple versions
19:12:27  * andythenorth tries again
19:12:31  <V453000> I don't even remember if it was in the purchase menu
19:12:41  <andythenorth> it’s bollocks feature
19:12:45  <andythenorth> @summon pikka
19:12:45  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk
19:12:47  <V453000> yes
19:12:50  <V453000> :D
19:13:24  <andythenorth> haz wrong
19:14:29  <V453000> the progression point is true
19:14:43  <V453000> but visualising it is kind of hard and it just gets annoying
19:15:34  <V453000> just increasing passenger decay rate would probably fix early aircraft being viable for super long ranges
19:15:54  <V453000> also, it will inevitably be stupidly different on 256x512 to 1024x104 or more
19:17:40  <andythenorth> ok found range in AV8 2.x
19:17:41  <V453000> I wonder how much did Pikka manage to replace with his grf
19:17:46  <V453000> landscape rail water etc
19:17:48  <andythenorth> I can see Milsa’s point from FS
19:18:08  <andythenorth> but eh, make orders even more complex just to support one grf?
19:18:25  <V453000> sure if it's nuts :P
19:23:51  <andythenorth> V453000: pikka nearly got to k eh
19:24:01  <andythenorth> that’s more than I expected
19:24:05  *** Gja has joined #openttd
19:24:06  <V453000> I don't remember the amount
19:24:15  <andythenorth>
19:24:30  <andythenorth> was looking how much he got done, to answer your Q above :P
19:24:47  *** UncleCJ has joined #openttd
19:25:12  <V453000> :D
19:26:09  * andythenorth bored now
19:26:14  <andythenorth> what shall do?
19:27:28  <V453000> I'm kind of really forcing myself with the trees atm
19:27:31  <V453000> can't give many hints :D
19:27:42  <andythenorth> newgrf trees spec?
19:27:45  <andythenorth> Wolf01: o_O
19:28:03  <Wolf01> Time to do it?
19:28:12  <V453000> I won't do it
19:28:14  <V453000> just saying
19:28:15  <V453000> :D
19:28:23  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
19:29:03  <andythenorth> maybe I play games
19:31:04  <Wolf01> I have a 2s ping, 0.4MBps/10Kbps connection today, I can't even open sites during a human lifetime
19:31:28  <V453000> Wolf01: doesn't that help productivity? :P
19:31:44  <Wolf01> Not if you need sites to produce
19:31:52  <V453000> well :)
19:32:19  *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
19:32:42  <peter1138> i'm streaming to twitch at ~3.5mbps
19:32:59  <Wolf01> ಥ╭╮ಥ
19:33:05  <peter1138> i'm a meanine
19:33:07  <peter1138> ...
19:33:09  <peter1138> i'm a meanie
19:33:16  <V453000> what do you stream, minecraft?
19:33:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: Wolf01: <- finally wrote a first draft for butgroundtypes
19:33:56  <andythenorth> ooh
19:34:10  <Wolf01> Eh, tomorrow I could be able to read it
19:34:12  * andythenorth reads
19:34:21  <frosch123> possibly intro and gui mockup is interesting
19:34:21  *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC
19:34:22  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I’ll print it and post it airmail
19:34:24  <Wolf01> Ok, loaded
19:34:25  <frosch123> rest is boilerplate
19:34:38  <Wolf01> 40 seconds to load a text page
19:34:54  <Wolf01> frosch123: could we fix NRT meanwhile?
19:35:34  <frosch123> something new broke?
19:35:40  <Wolf01> Yes
19:35:41  <andythenorth> frosch123: I’m skimming but…reminds me of ‘vehicles can drive on station tiles’ from eons ago
19:35:56  <andythenorth> mart3p had it proposed for ISR somewhere
19:35:57  <Wolf01> Read log since you joined today
19:36:42  <peter1138> V453000, any old shit
19:36:54  <frosch123> andythenorth: one of the av8 versions has a setting to enable/disable range
19:37:02  <andythenorth> I found one enabled
19:37:12  <andythenorth> i’m a meanie
19:37:13  <V453000> nice
19:37:15  <V453000> ancient shit
19:37:51  <V453000> is openttd old shit? :P
19:38:04  <frosch123> turned slug shit
19:38:35  <Wolf01> frosch123: I tried to merge master in ratt branch and fix conflicts (just 3 conflicts easy to fix) and noticed that eltrams don't seem to work after loading a savegame made with the same version
19:39:04  <peter1138> hmm could try
19:39:18  <peter1138> i suspect it's too shit to work with game capture :p
19:39:34  <peter1138> yup :S
19:40:26  <V453000> nice, made 3 trees today
19:40:31  <V453000> 21 shits
19:41:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: consolidating to just one global toolbar button = winning
19:44:06  <Wolf01> I find difficult to read the catenary complementing section, but the rest make sense
19:44:17  <andythenorth> catenary boggles brain
19:45:47  <frosch123> not bridges boggle my brain
19:45:50  <frosch123> *now
19:46:25  <andythenorth> bridges on bridges
19:46:30  <andythenorth> stations on bridges over stations
19:47:36  <frosch123> anyway, i suspect that the road construction toolbar fails to provide space for two dropdowns
19:47:39  <Wolf01> Will groundtypes allow overstructures like walking bridges over the road?
19:47:39  <andythenorth> yair
19:47:42  <andythenorth> wondered
19:47:44  <frosch123> or names must be short :)
19:48:02  <frosch123> Wolf01: yes, via sidewalks stuff
19:48:03  <andythenorth> I can work on that a bit
19:48:06  <andythenorth> not now :P
19:48:26  <andythenorth> so BGT unpicks the combinatorial explosion by exposing controls for combining
19:48:29  <Wolf01> Make dropdowns inline with other buttons?
19:48:40  <frosch123> it should support most what the existing road furniture grfs do, but it restricts stuff to single-tile szie
19:48:50  <Wolf01> Open 2 toolbars like the terraforming tool?
19:48:58  <andythenorth> nobody can pick from 256 choices, but they can pick 1 out of 4, 1 out of 4 again etc
19:49:42  <Wolf01> <frosch123> it should support most what the existing road furniture grfs do, but it restricts stuff to single-tile szie <- Grf authors will find a way to abuse that
19:49:56  <Wolf01> But we aren't here to prevent abuses
19:50:15  <andythenorth> just remember, nothing stops you installing comic sans
19:50:17  <andythenorth> or even using it
19:50:31  <andythenorth> standing rule for all content systems
19:50:46  <Wolf01> $friend uses comic sans on phone, and every time he sends me a screenshots he makes my eyes bleed
19:52:25  <Wolf01> Ok, after Reading that
19:52:35  <Wolf01> When we'll start?
19:52:53  <Wolf01> Trash current NRT? Edit it?
19:52:58  <andythenorth> frosch123: wondering if this circumvents ever needing newgrf roadstops
19:53:25  <frosch123> newgrf roadstops would be multi-tile if over-arching roof and stuff
19:53:30  <andythenorth> hmm
19:53:33  <Wolf01> What could be salvaged from NRT?
19:53:46  <andythenorth> multi-tile sounds a bit 2025 to me
19:53:48  <frosch123> Wolf01: it shares a lot with nrt
19:53:51  <andythenorth> unless peter1138 does them
19:54:10  <frosch123> like vehicle and pathfinder stuff
19:54:54  <andythenorth> does depot come from ground or road/tram type?
19:55:19  <frosch123> likely from ground
19:55:27  <andythenorth> makes more sense
19:55:29  <frosch123> but depot, stations, bridges are unclear
19:55:36  <andythenorth> I am reading
19:55:47  <Wolf01> Could we do them later?
19:55:49  <frosch123> groundtype affects the groundsprite in all cases
19:56:11  <andythenorth> so unified tram/RV depots?
19:56:16  <frosch123> for bridges and tunnls it makes sense to have different ground tiles on each end
19:56:19  <andythenorth> it’s just another tile?
19:56:23  <frosch123> but that leaves the bridge surface unefined
19:57:00  <andythenorth> ok UI bothers me
19:57:00  <frosch123> anyway, for a first version i would skip: depot, stations, bridges, tunnels, custom catenary
19:57:04  <andythenorth> +1
19:57:08  <andythenorth> tarpit
19:57:11  <andythenorth> add later
19:57:12  <Wolf01> +1
19:57:13  <andythenorth> if ever
19:57:19  <frosch123> most important imho is to test the ui
19:57:35  <andythenorth> “in which andythenorth has to learn OpenTTD UI code” :|
19:57:51  * Wolf01 could do some working mockups
19:59:25  <frosch123> i wonder what the higher toolbar will cause :) but it would give a foundation to also make the transparency toolbar bigger :p
19:59:26  <andythenorth> does the ground selection clear after choosing one?
19:59:42  <frosch123> the selection window?
19:59:45  <andythenorth> yes
19:59:51  <frosch123> you can open and close it as you like
19:59:57  <frosch123> keep it open or nor
20:00:00  <andythenorth> looks like it risks same problem as station window on my screen :)
20:00:18  <frosch123> it does not need to be open for building and converting
20:00:32  <frosch123> but you can keep it open if you want to convert multiple tiles to different types
20:00:59  <Wolf01> About "Query compatibility with specific road/tramtype: (in nrt-todolist, also useful for railtypes)" :
20:01:17  <frosch123> it's also listed for bgt
20:01:25  <frosch123> and i consider just implementing it for railtypes in trunk
20:01:47  * andythenorth wondered
20:02:18  <Wolf01> Could my "check compatibility" branch be useful?
20:02:37  <andythenorth> ok I read this all again to be sure I’ve understood
20:03:04  <frosch123> Wolf01: i do not see the relation with the forum thread
20:03:24  <frosch123> nrt talks about a simple two-sourceline va2 variable
20:03:50  <frosch123> there are some upgrade-rail inconsistencies, for which there is a fs task
20:03:58  <frosch123> no idea why that thread was dug up
20:04:55  *** Gja has quit IRC
20:09:42  <andythenorth> so
20:09:53  <V453000> played the game
20:09:54  <V453000> it's good
20:10:22  <andythenorth> iz
20:10:54  <andythenorth> frosch123: so every road and tram type has catenary on/off variant?
20:11:04  <andythenorth> is that a 2 label system, or a bit or what?
20:11:18  <andythenorth> I don’t actually care about implementation, but helps me understand
20:12:28  <frosch123> every roadtype either has "same type with/without catenary" or "cannot coexist with tramtype of different catenary choice"
20:12:48  <frosch123> the two roadtypes are separate and link each other via their label
20:14:10  <frosch123> so either you have pairs like ROAD/ELRD, or you have "ELHAUL cannot coexist with RAIL, but only with ELRL"
20:15:36  * andythenorth trying to understand upgrade vs. convert
20:16:12  <frosch123> <- that is about upgrading
20:16:19  <frosch123> upgrading happens automatic
20:16:27  <frosch123> upgrading should not break stuff
20:16:30  <andythenorth> right
20:16:40  <frosch123> convert is manual and can break stuff
20:16:41  <andythenorth> because it’s all compatible
20:16:45  <andythenorth> ok
20:16:54  <andythenorth> [upgrading all compatible]
20:17:21  <Wolf01> Yes sorry, I linked the whole topic and not the post
20:17:43  <andythenorth> so can I upgrade by overbuilding?
20:17:51  <andythenorth> and convert tool is for converting?
20:18:06  <frosch123> yes, imho overbuilding should upgrade
20:18:25  <frosch123> apparently this does not happen consistently for rail currently
20:18:41  <andythenorth>
20:18:42  <andythenorth> iirc
20:19:01  <frosch123> yep
20:20:38  <milek7_> hm, patch for more than 15 companies have any changes to be merged?
20:20:46  <milek7_> (maybe with extended tile array to avoid weird bitpacking)
20:20:59  *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
20:21:19  <andythenorth> BGT nml patch needed eh
20:21:44  <andythenorth> frosch123: how much of this still applies to BGT?
20:21:51  <frosch123> milek7_: in theory yes, but on my list not before 2027
20:22:45  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think i addressed everything but "independent movement for road and tram"
20:23:00  <andythenorth> is a pony
20:23:01  <frosch123> which i consider the more meh the longer i think about it :)
20:23:07  <andythenorth> I couldn’t care less about it
20:23:23  <V453000> damn playing openttd feels good
20:23:24  <andythenorth> suspension railway is total PITA
20:23:24  <V453000> XD
20:23:34  <andythenorth> I tried it, it clips tunnels, bridges, rail catenary
20:23:35  <eekee> :D
20:23:41  <andythenorth> daft idea
20:29:35  *** ic111 has joined #openttd
20:31:46  <andythenorth> so NRT is dead
20:31:55  <andythenorth> basically, a bit boring
20:32:22  <frosch123> noone said the BGT will turn out good, but imho NRT has some big problems
20:32:44  <andythenorth> isn’t the main problem that it’s a bit dull?
20:32:47  <andythenorth> and catenary is a mess
20:33:01  <frosch123> i like the supermob stuff
20:33:23  <andythenorth> FWIW supermop said we should ignore the Docklands grf
20:33:36  <andythenorth> and that all the cobble types etc will use speed limits
20:33:53  <V453000> wot
20:33:56  <V453000> NRT lief
20:33:58  <frosch123> sure, but noone dealt with tram types
20:34:07  <Wolf01> We should listen also to supermod (<- just to rotate that p around some more)
20:34:22  <andythenorth> nah supermoq showed the way
20:34:30  <ic111> Question / request for brainstorming: Which values does the window engine take into account when determining the minimum allowed size of a window, i.e. the size I cannot go below during a resize?
20:34:55  <V453000> do you even supermob
20:34:58  <V453000> XD
20:35:02  <Wolf01> Then you say he will agree to whatever we will come up to?
20:35:13  <ic111> I removed all calls that set width in UpdateWidgetSize --> I could make my timetable window about 15 % smaller, which is not very much
20:35:45  <ic111> I set all SetMinimalSize calls in the window desc to quite low x values ---> Changed nothing
20:36:07  <ic111> What else does it take into account?
20:36:48  <andythenorth> FLAG_NO_LEVEL_CROSSING: moved to groundtype ? o_O
20:37:09  <frosch123> ic111: widget.cpp contains defaults for all widgets
20:37:22  <ic111> does default mean minimum size?
20:37:36  *** Gja has joined #openttd
20:37:42  <frosch123> yes
20:37:58  <frosch123> all widgets have minimum size and fill/resize behaviour
20:38:06  <frosch123> "default" size only exists in window context
20:38:44  <ic111> And do the SetMinimalSize occurrences in the window desc override them? I would assume yes, but...?
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20:39:15  <frosch123> i think the order is 1. widget.cpp default, 2. setminimalsize in tree 3. updatewidegetsize
20:39:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: I guess dropdowns with names for road / tram because you need to see currently selected?
20:40:00  <andythenorth> nbm
20:40:02  <andythenorth> nvm *
20:40:07  * andythenorth thinking out loud
20:40:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: you need to see the selected one, and the assumption is there are only a hand full of them, and they have names instead of previews
20:40:25  <frosch123> while the groundtype selection opens a big window with previews
20:40:38  <andythenorth> I wondered about a menu instead for road/tram selection
20:40:43  <andythenorth> think it sucks
20:40:55  <ic111> Ok, so probably if the window engine calculates an unwanted big minimum size, I want to add additional SetMinimalSize calls to the tree, is this the strategy one uses in that situation?
20:41:28  <frosch123> well, did you figure out which widget causes the big size?
20:41:41  <frosch123> or are you trying to minimise the borders?
20:41:53  <frosch123> ic111: also, there is not just minimalsize, but also padding
20:42:38  <ic111> No, so far I didn´t figure it out.
20:42:40  <andythenorth> hmm
20:42:46  <ic111> Consider the screenshot from yesterday:
20:43:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: since you need to select both groundtype and road/tramtype, i settled for listing the last n used in the menu, instead of all 2048
20:43:06  <frosch123> :p
20:43:14  <andythenorth> I saw that
20:43:17  <andythenorth> it’s nice :)
20:43:18  <ic111> By throwing away calls in UpdateWidgetSize, I now have a window that ends about at the right end of the canal icon in the top line
20:43:37  <ic111> I decreased all explicit SetMinimalSize calls to quite low values
20:44:03  <frosch123> well, isn't the white text the important part?
20:44:05  <ic111> ... but maybe there is some widget I don´t explicitely assign a MinimalSize, probably I just have to do a closer look...
20:44:09  <andythenorth> does type dropdown need to list all speed limit, axle weight crap?
20:44:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: speed limit is part of groundtype :p
20:44:52  <andythenorth> wondering if we can just have a picture, not word
20:44:58  <ic111> NoNo, the white text clearly isn´t the problem
20:45:02  <andythenorth> make toolbar even deeper, use tile for ground types
20:45:11  <frosch123> axle weight would still be in the dropdown, but did anyone use that? or did only eddi talk bout it?
20:45:19  <andythenorth> words
20:45:31  <andythenorth> and then a menu for selecting road / tram, which draws them over selected ground type
20:45:31  <ic111> (1) because  I am not aware that I still consider it, (2) Because in the running OpenTTD instance I just use for testing, it is much smaller
20:45:34  * andythenorth should mockup
20:46:03  <ic111> ... ok, so I´ll do some more code inspection now, thank you for now...
20:46:33  <frosch123> ic111: maybe you also have some EQUALSIZE containers?
20:47:27  <ic111> yes
20:47:29  <ic111>  there are some
20:47:52  <frosch123> or widgetselections?
20:48:19  * andythenorth makes ugly mockup
20:48:33  <ic111> yes, also.
20:48:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: i wonder whether there is any visual difference in roadtypes :p
20:48:40  <andythenorth> can we limit displayed chars in dropdown?
20:48:55  <frosch123> it should truncate with "..."
20:48:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: enterprising people will do different lines etc
20:49:13  <andythenorth> wondering about vertical stacked dropdowns
20:49:23  <andythenorth> and some kind of preview of the resulting tile
20:49:48  <frosch123> for preview imho just open the ground selection window
20:50:03  <andythenorth> I was trying to use a preview to save space
20:50:07  <frosch123> but toolbar on its own should be minimal, i though you would be interested in that :p
20:50:12  <andythenorth> don’t have to read words
20:50:13  <andythenorth> words is boring
20:50:22  <andythenorth> well, words are great
20:50:28  <andythenorth> but not in the game
20:50:32  <andythenorth> mostly pictures
20:50:51  <frosch123> skip the cats though
20:50:52  <andythenorth> I think we can make some neat little palette
20:51:01  <andythenorth> just haven’t figured it out yet
20:54:04  <Wolf01> frosch123, andythenorth: speed limits? I would like same roadtype with different speed limit, move to BGT? (I always found stupid the proliferation of same rail track just to set a speed limit)
20:54:43  <andythenorth> how about routing restrictions per BGT? :P
20:54:51  <andythenorth> no trains > 5 tiles
20:54:54  <frosch123> the point is that groundtypes define the surroundings, like protection walls etc. also speedlimit is shared by road and tram
20:55:01  <Wolf01> No trucks in cities?
20:55:15  <frosch123> no goods for town growth :)
20:55:16  <Wolf01> andythenorth: weren't you the one who suggested it?
20:55:39  <frosch123> new disaster: town blocks good delivery due to diesel restrictions
20:55:48  <Wolf01> Aahah
20:56:05  <V453000> made 4 trees, removed 1
20:56:06  <andythenorth> third idea I had
20:56:10  <V453000> total progress of day = 3
20:56:12  <V453000> iz fine enough
20:56:12  <andythenorth> not in love with it, but different
20:56:13  <V453000> gnight
20:56:23  <Wolf01> Mmmh I think no netflix this evening
20:56:31  <andythenorth> bye V453000
20:56:40  <Wolf01> nn V
20:57:07  <andythenorth> frosch123: everything is wrong in that mockup, except trying to get size
20:57:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: i would like an easy toggle between road and tram
20:58:07  <Wolf01> With that size you need to double the width of the dropdowns too
20:58:49  <andythenorth> frosch123: do both road and tram need to show at same time?
20:59:00  <frosch123> no
20:59:04  <Wolf01> 2 options: bigger toolbar; child toolbar
20:59:09  <andythenorth> dunno I have more success making UIs in html than talking them out :)
20:59:10  <frosch123> but two radio buttons looked easier than a toggle button
20:59:23  <andythenorth> maybe we need to prototype it in game, not photoshop
20:59:36  <andythenorth> concept is started at least
20:59:40  <_dp_> hmm... apparently some new players have troubles finding mono/maglev so they can't bulid trains after 2000-smth
21:00:10  <andythenorth> it’s never obvious that global toolbar is also menu
21:00:12  <andythenorth> if that’s the cause
21:00:23  <_dp_> andythenorth, it likely is
21:00:54  <frosch123> well, i don't think mono/magl is their biggest problem then
21:01:01  <Wolf01> Show main toolbar buttons with dropdown like actual dropdowns
21:01:12  <andythenorth> who made all the crazy tile grfs?
21:01:18  <andythenorth> Quast65 or so?
21:01:29  <andythenorth> we need someone to make BGT test cases
21:01:37  <andythenorth> ‘tile with parked car'
21:01:41  <andythenorth> ‘tile with phone box'
21:01:50  <andythenorth> ‘tile with cat fighting doc'
21:01:53  <andythenorth> dog *
21:02:06  <andythenorth> ‘tile with seagull eating chicken'
21:02:10  <Wolf01> Just put stuff we already have for the moment
21:02:11  <_dp_> tile with a black hole
21:02:41  <Wolf01> And yes, I'm a bit worried about the UI
21:04:15  <andythenorth> just don’t make it like the station or object UIs :P
21:04:29  <andythenorth> the object UI missed a memo about padding
21:05:56  * andythenorth could probably fix that, instead of bitching
21:06:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: BGT airport tiles? o_O
21:06:59  <frosch123> :)
21:07:10  <andythenorth> I was trolling, but it might work
21:07:26  <andythenorth> choose ground, add taxiway, runway, or airgate
21:07:33  <frosch123> canals are already stetching it
21:07:49  <andythenorth> it does canals too? :o
21:07:59  <frosch123> i wrote it somewhere
21:08:10  <andythenorth> oh you did
21:08:29  <frosch123> if it works for road, it's definitely also suitable for railtypes (and would solve the compatibility thingie)
21:08:37  <frosch123> but canals is a bit far fetched
21:08:46  <andythenorth> can’t think of a use for it
21:08:53  <andythenorth> except unifying river and canal
21:08:59  <andythenorth> then being able to build river
21:10:17  * andythenorth eyes gone
21:10:18  <andythenorth> bed
21:11:43  <andythenorth> bye :)
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21:36:27  <nekomaster> So I keep starting over with my Belgian Train Set and everytime I start trying to modify the code everything stops working. Stuff just doesnt appear in game even though their PNML files are included
21:37:19  <nekomaster> I dont know what I'm doing thats causing my problems and I'm ready to just give up as I've spent 4 days just trying to get set up and nothing works
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21:59:59  <Eddi|zuHause> nekomaster: too little detail
22:00:11  <nekomaster>
22:00:20  <nekomaster> Basically I try modifying the 2cc Trains in NML Code
22:00:53  <Eddi|zuHause> did you make sure to set climate availability?
22:00:55  <nekomaster> and when I do, while it compiles just fine and produces a NewGRF, it just doesnt work in game, none of my steam engines or coaches appear in game
22:01:13  <nekomaster> that might be why maybe?
22:01:18  <nekomaster> 0_0
22:01:24  <Eddi|zuHause> did you set a capacity but it finds no cargo to refit for?
22:01:37  <nekomaster> Because I removed the REGION parameter since this is only a Belgian train set
22:01:57  <nekomaster> and I believe 2cc Trains removed the Climate availabilty and replaced it with the REGION parameter
22:03:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds plausible
22:03:27  <nekomaster> yeah, I believe that was an issue with my NARS Add-on Set that some how I figured out quickly
22:03:51  <nekomaster> I dunno why I didn't think about it or maybe look at my NARS Add-on Set 2cc Code to see why that worked and BTS didn't
22:03:54  <Wolf01> Bah, I was so bored I moved the display options to the transparency UI and I even find it more convenient
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22:08:36  <nekomaster> Yay so things work now
22:08:50  <nekomaster> I spent 4 days drinking and getting angry and not getting anywhere
22:10:07  <Wolf01> could be good? I made them of different colour to show they are a bit different than just the transparency options, also the title should be changed
22:12:04  <Wolf01> I think I'll move them to the transparency options array and move the loading indicators on the right too
22:12:21  <Wolf01> As it works as a display option
22:15:04  <nekomaster> Eddi|zuHause: Thanks so much for pointing that out, I'm so relived that fixed everythin
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22:56:47  <Wolf01> 'night
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