Log for #openttd on 13th October 2017:
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06:20:37  <andythenorth> o/
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06:33:49  <V453000> morning good sir
06:33:50  <V453000>
06:33:52  <V453000> with sound
06:35:55  <andythenorth> winning
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07:06:42  <andythenorth> V453000: more tank car bollocks
07:06:45  <andythenorth> less shit
07:07:21  <V453000> very nice but I think it could use some sort of shading at the ends
07:07:26  <V453000> it looks flat horizontally
07:07:36  <V453000> at the end I would expect some darkening or brightening or something
07:07:38  <V453000> idk
07:08:49  <andythenorth> I will try pissing around with some highlights
07:17:44  <andythenorth> I have to draw another two generations also :P
07:17:49  <andythenorth> tank wagons don’t have doors even
07:17:52  <andythenorth> hard
07:19:34  <Arveen2> clicking that video with a headset on and sound set to 90% is not a good idea
07:19:48  <andythenorth> fair
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09:07:11  <Wolf01> o/
09:07:44  <Wolf01> Fook humidity, fish swimming in the air :|
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14:04:49  <Wolf01> o/
14:06:43  <supermop> yo
14:07:29  <supermop> locomotives coded but not yet drawn
14:07:36  <supermop> except for one
14:08:04  <supermop> i added switches to chose between all the liveries i want to draw
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14:13:24  <Alberth> ha, invisble engines :)
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14:46:39  <supermop> also need to figure this out:
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15:04:50  <Wolf01> I don't know why, but the coal one looks bigger
15:15:39  <supermop> Wolf01: ???
15:16:02  <Wolf01> Screenshot you linked
15:16:38  <Wolf01> The truck with iron ore seem it carries less stuff than the coal one on top right
15:17:57  <supermop> oh thats a ways above
15:18:10  <supermop> i think it is because the inside of the hopper is dark grey
15:18:29  <supermop> so the last 1-px of empty hopper space looks like more coal
15:19:28  <supermop> i guess i could lighten the inside of the hopper, but then gravel might have the same problem
15:20:25  <Wolf01> Make iron ore fill the whole hopper instead of leaving 1px of border
15:21:10  <supermop> too heavy
15:21:21  <supermop> ooh its not a bug its a feature
15:21:51  <supermop> i ore is heavier so same number of tons fills less of hopper
15:21:56  <supermop> problem solved?
15:22:05  <Wolf01> Lol
15:22:11  <supermop> yessss
15:22:50  <supermop> hmm do i want liveries to be random, or based on build date? or last service date?
15:23:26  <Alberth> likely you do
15:23:44  <supermop> do old trams get new livery ever?
15:24:02  <supermop> irl they gradually do as they come in for service
15:24:26  <supermop> but some keep old livery for years
15:25:48  <supermop> based on build date gives interesting effect where each towns trams might differ based on when then received new trams, even if the model of tram is the same
15:26:42  <supermop> i guess i could also allow refit to whatever livery you want
15:26:46  <supermop> but that is boring
15:27:46  <Alberth> some people freak out if they can't control the livery to whatever is supposed to be used in a city
15:28:53  <supermop> the trams and liveries are not real though
15:29:04  <supermop> only real-world 'inspired'
15:29:30  <supermop> one of them looks like a sweatshirt i had in the 90s
15:30:58  <supermop> maybe ill use variable 'company_type' so that only AI can get cool liveries
15:33:42  <Wolf01> NSFW
15:35:47  <Alberth> we are a bit pretentious in thinking we are not an artificial life form :p
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15:40:41  <supermop>
15:41:08  <supermop> looking at this i can't see how i would have a date specific result like i want
15:41:45  <supermop> it seems like i could make it so that each time a tram goes to depot, it gets some random new livery
15:42:45  <supermop> but not have say, "40% chance to receive current_year livery, 60% chance to keep whatever livery already had"
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15:45:18  <Wolf01> 4: cur_year_livery;
15:45:18  <Wolf01> 6: random_livery;
15:45:18  <Wolf01> This won't work?
15:45:29  <supermop> as i want to make sure that a tram never reverts to an older style
15:45:52  <supermop> like if tram comes into the depot with 90s livery and then leaves with 80s livery
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15:46:39  <Wolf01> Use the "dependent"?
15:46:50  <Wolf01> And 2 randoms
15:50:03  <supermop> i don't think i understand
15:50:41  <supermop> how does the tram remember it's current livery?
15:51:25  <Wolf01> You have one random to select a livery based by year, and another random to select the livery based on the previous random or a new one, at least this is what I understood about it
15:57:56  <supermop> is there a way for the random trigger to only randomly trigger
15:58:16  <supermop> like it only actually triggers 40% of the time?
16:00:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you'd need storage for that
16:01:21  <supermop> like bitmask(TRIGGER_VEHICLE_SERVICE, TRIGGER_???, TRIGGER_ALL_NEEDED)
16:01:51  <supermop> where trigger_??? is just some random that doesn't seem to exist
16:02:02  <supermop> but would be nice if it did
16:02:12  <Wolf01> That looks like an event
16:02:24  <supermop> even if it was just 50/50 0 or 1
16:02:38  <supermop> the even is going to depot
16:02:40  <supermop> event
16:02:57  <supermop> tram doesn't get repainted out on the street
16:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think there's an undocumented trigger callback (1? 2? something like that), you could do fancy magic there
16:03:18  <supermop> undocumented hmm
16:03:29  <supermop> do i have to use nfo?
16:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't base your decision on random bits there
16:04:13  <Wolf01> I would like an online tool for doing OTTD stuff... it would be cool to debug without compiling and firing up the game, loading grfs, prepare the things you need to see
16:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> (because if you decide to not trigger, you have no chance to undo that decision)
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16:05:25  <Wolf01> You can trigger to "do nothing" maybe
16:05:35  <supermop> Wolf01: thats what i want
16:05:58  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: seems like nml has "random_trigger" callback
16:06:07  <supermop> but i don't think i can return 'do nothing' as a livery
16:06:20  <supermop> brb
16:06:25  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: note that if you use that, all triggers you put in your other random decisions are ignored
16:06:48  <supermop> i don't get it
16:06:54  <supermop> this is over my head
16:08:26  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: normally, when a trigger happens, the game traverses the "default" decision chain, and on every random switch it finds there, it triggers the appropriate bits mentioned there
16:08:50  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: if you define "random_trigger" callback, it ignores the default chain and does this chain instead
16:09:43  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have to duplicate the random switches for that callback
16:09:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and possibly all relevant other decisions
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16:53:06  <supermop> hmm
16:53:17  <supermop> ok that might me a pain
16:53:25  <supermop> but workable
16:53:50  <supermop> the only other random thing these trams do other than livery is which end the pantograph is on
16:55:23  <supermop> do RVs have any kind of storage?
16:58:55  <supermop> what is the 32 day callback?
16:59:38  <supermop> does it just return 1 one day out of 32? is it every 32 days counting from day 0 or from day vehicle was 'born'
17:00:41  <supermop> ~3% chance of new livery might be ok, but feels low for trams that do not regularly service
17:01:53  <supermop> on short lines where i have depot as terminus, tram might service 6-10 times a year, but on a loop line it may only service for auto renew
17:02:36  <supermop> i assume other players have trams visit the depot at most 1-2 times a year
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17:09:11  <supermop> oh. the 70s tram gets extra doors if build after 1980
17:09:17  <supermop> but thats not random
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17:26:14  <supermop> hi frosch123
17:27:04  <frosch123> hoi
17:27:17  <Wolf01> Quak
17:33:50  <supermop> ugh idk what im going to do
17:35:17  <supermop> the random_switch page of docs doesn't make itclear to me where random_trigger callback goes
17:37:38  <frosch123> random triggers are probably the second hardest thing after stations :)
17:38:02  <frosch123> anyway, you put the triggers directly into the random_switch
17:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause> all callbacks go in the graphics block
17:38:11  <frosch123> and the random_switch must be in the graphics chain
17:38:56  <frosch123> if you want to randomise a callback result, you still need a random_switch in the graphics chain for linking the rerandomisation trigger
17:39:10  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: like random_trigger:   random_switch ?
17:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:40:29  <supermop> frosch123: i am trying to come up with a way where by old trams have some chance of getting new livery paint in depot
17:40:48  <frosch123> rule 1: DO NOT USE "random_trigger"
17:40:49  <supermop> but where they never get an old livery as new paint
17:41:20  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you forgot rule 0: "do not listen to eddi" :p
17:41:37  <supermop> so they randomly decide to either 1: keep current livery, or 2: receive the 'new' livery for the current year
17:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i sort of tried that in CETS by treating the random bits as a delay between new livery appearing and repainting
17:42:13  <frosch123> i don't think that is possible
17:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause> which has a whole load of problems
17:42:50  <supermop> i cant figure out a way to have a switch have a 'do nothing option'
17:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause> like accessing the random bits in a normal formula
17:43:14  <supermop> the only way would seem to be randomly decide whether to traverse the switch at all
17:43:25  <frosch123> hmm, oh, i have an idea, it works with gray code
17:43:35  <supermop> ...gray code?
17:43:43  <supermop> what am i getting myself into here
17:43:58  <frosch123> gray code is a method to count while only ever changing a single bit for incrementing/decrementing
17:44:03  <Eddi|zuHause> and rerandomizing between different generations is also tricky
17:44:12  <frosch123> that allows you to "count" by rerandomising a single bit
17:44:44  <frosch123> supermop: so, how many generations?
17:44:59  <supermop> most trams have 4 liveries
17:45:08  <supermop> but only 3 regularly used
17:45:33  <frosch123> aww, then there is a easier solution without gray code :/
17:45:33  <supermop> 'livery A' is special, only appears if built during exclusive preview
17:45:45  <supermop> however, one tram has 8 liveries
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27927 trunk/src/lang/french.txt (2017-10-13 19:45:40 +0200 )
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> french: 6 changes by glx
17:45:49  <frosch123> why do the best solutions never have a usecase?
17:45:56  <supermop> because i went crazy drawing them
17:46:29  <supermop> frosch123: i am happy to draw more and more and more liveries
17:47:10  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, would be way easier if there were storage
17:47:16  <supermop> yet
17:47:20  <supermop> *yep
17:47:27  <frosch123> ok, next question: what should be the probabiliy for upgrading the livery in every depot visit?
17:47:42  <supermop> hmm something between 10 and 40 %
17:47:50  <supermop> i'd need to test it to see
17:48:08  <frosch123> ok, i'll make an example for 25%
17:48:25  <supermop> i have some lines where trams are in the depot almost every 30 days, but i assum most trams go to depot 1-2 times per year
17:48:37  <Eddi|zuHause> 50% needs one bit, 25% needs two bits, 12.5% or 37.5% need 3 bits
17:49:31  <supermop> i guess i should say 31.25% to be difficult then
17:49:36  <supermop> heh
17:54:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i could imagine a few ways to abuse triggers to get this behaviour, but it might still be easier to allow STORE/LOAD acces to the random bits directly
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18:07:30  <andythenorth> o/
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18:09:26  <supermop> hi andythenorth
18:12:12  <Wolf01> o/
18:14:58  <Breckett> hi
18:17:20  <supermop> man adding sprites for drive-on-left is going to be a pain
18:17:34  <Alberth> o/
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18:30:58  <frosch123> supermop: <- possibly something like that
18:31:01  <andythenorth> supermop: “don’t”? :)
18:32:36  <supermop> frosch123: ooooh
18:32:46  <frosch123> hmm, i think it is incomplete
18:33:16  <frosch123> i need to downgrade vehicle which are built as gen1 with inital random bits saying "upgraded"
18:41:28  <frosch123> supermop: <- next try
18:41:51  <supermop> ok
18:42:01  * frosch123 probably scared him away :p
18:44:52  <supermop> what is #define YEAR_ etc is that something you can do in nml?
18:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> those are preprocessor commands
18:50:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if you run your file through the c-preprocessor (cpp)
18:59:17  <supermop> oh
19:00:56  <supermop> i wonder if i can write this thing out just once per generation of trams rather than per model of tram
19:01:33  <supermop> like so all the results are 'Gen 3 livery B' etc
19:01:59  <supermop> hmm no
19:03:04  <supermop> there isn't a way i can think of for the switch in the tram graphics area to get 'gen 3 livery A' from the other switches and do anything meaningful with it
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19:03:47  <andythenorth> you could
19:03:54  <supermop> ie so that 'gen 3 livery A' is one spritegroup for a 1 car tram, and a different one for the parts of a 3 car tram
19:03:58  <andythenorth> but it’s not the right problem to solve
19:06:45  <supermop> right solution to the right problem would have been 'don't have various liveries'
19:06:54  <supermop> but too late i already drew them
19:09:09  <andythenorth> is your problem manually writing the switches?
19:10:54  <supermop> that isn't a problem so much as a feeling of efficiency or propriety
19:12:15  <supermop> if all the trams of a certain body style have the same 4 styles of livery, it 'feels' right that they all use the same mechanism to decide which livery they receive
19:13:08  <supermop> ofc i can put frosch123's chain of switches once per tram, and that may be better even, allowing finer control of the years for each style
19:13:24  <supermop> but something about it feels clunky
19:14:07  <Wolf01> flat wagon
19:14:26  <supermop> Wolf01: beautiful
19:24:10  <andythenorth> 5/8
19:24:13  <andythenorth> doesn’t fit Horse
19:24:29  <andythenorth> ha ha it actually is 5/8
19:24:41  * andythenorth just guessed without counting studs
19:25:06  <andythenorth> hmm 6/8 including buffers :P
19:25:10  <supermop> andythenorth: yeah
19:25:22  <supermop> the deck is 22 studs not 20
19:29:28  <andythenorth> supermop: so the switch thing…you’re opening a box labelled ‘templating’ :P
19:30:05  <supermop> T_T
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20:29:45  <supermop> frosch123: sorry i am meaning to try your code, but i have to fill in lots of code for the liveries themselves and the trams to use them first
20:30:39  <frosch123> the more graphics the more complex :)
20:30:50  <frosch123> there is a reason why andy does python magic
20:37:02  <supermop> i need to do some recoloring on my open wagons too
20:37:17  <supermop> which idk how to do, but need to get these trams working first
20:44:44  <V453000> yo
20:45:04  <V453000> automation
20:46:10  <Wolf01> Need more high level language or a dedicated ide
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20:49:08  <V453000> I will also try to do some pythony pythoning with my next project
20:49:14  <V453000> many graphics = mayhem
20:51:07  <Wolf01> Shit, I already ate half of a maxi-pack of loackers
20:51:43  <Wolf01> I should try with some cement
20:56:12  <supermop> i dont really get this page:
20:56:40  <V453000> which part don't you get
20:56:58  <supermop> it seems like i list the color i want to recolor, then the color it should become, but where the hell do i apply it to a sprite
20:57:00  <V453000> you give it values and it recolours from A to B autmoatically
20:57:16  <supermop> like i have recolor_sprite_mop
20:57:33  <supermop> and i have spriteset_mop_01
20:58:10  <supermop> where do i say 'use recolor_sprite_mop on spriteset_mop_01'
21:01:46  <V453000> colour_mapping: RAINBOWSLUG_colour_mapping_random;
21:01:49  <V453000> in graphics{}
21:02:07  <V453000> and there you have a random or whatever switch leading to the recolour table
21:02:34  <V453000> rainbow slugs do it if you check out nuts.nml
21:03:09  <V453000>
21:03:22  <V453000> note that frosch wrote that part, so it's utter batshit insane
21:03:27  <supermop> ok
21:03:30  <supermop> makes sense
21:03:42  <V453000> but I think the basic part is this simple
21:04:20  <frosch123> supermop: just use the normal cc recolour sprites
21:04:40  <frosch123> is there a need to define custom ones?
21:04:55  <supermop> for one case i want to make an open wagon either grey, 1cc, or 2cc
21:05:19  <frosch123> anyway, selecting the recolouring works different when using sprite stacks
21:06:06  <frosch123> so before you start with recolouring you should decide whether to possibly use stacks somewhen, or whether to never use them
21:06:16  <frosch123> (you can use a stack of 1 for starting)
21:07:13  <V453000> what's the major difference?
21:07:16  <frosch123> [23:04] <supermop> for one case i want to make an open wagon either grey, 1cc, or 2cc <- does "grey" look the same as when grey is selected as cc? or is it some other grey?
21:07:18  <V453000> I'll want to use both
21:07:56  <frosch123> V453000: when not using stacks you select sprites and recolouring in two independent switch chains
21:08:16  <frosch123> with stacks you select both as pairs in the same switch chain
21:08:46  <frosch123> though if the whole stack shall use the same recolouring you can still use the old method
21:09:56  <V453000> nice, another dimension wtf :D this going to be crazy
21:10:10  <V453000> no I will use it for each layer
21:10:15  <V453000> probably just for 2 at most
21:24:22  <Wolf01> andy... nothere, supermop you might like this
21:25:33  <supermop> cool
21:26:33  <supermop> frosch123: i could make it so the whole stack recolors the same, but was thinking each layer would color separately
21:27:45  <frosch123> <- that's still the example grf for that
21:28:58  <frosch123> thought it can probably be written more intuititve
21:29:22  <frosch123> -t -t
21:30:28  <supermop> i already use stacks for almost all of my vehicles
21:31:46  <supermop> i wonder what is better switch chain: [position in consist]-[stack]-[livery style]
21:32:19  <supermop> or [style]-[stack]-[position]
21:32:36  <frosch123> if you store some intermediate results using STORE_TEMP, it does not matter
21:32:53  <supermop> [style]-[position]-[stack] sounds intuitive
21:33:03  <frosch123> in that case there is no need to duplicate all the cases
21:33:12  <supermop> ooh
21:36:39  <supermop> does i need to set a unique location to store for each tram?
21:37:05  <frosch123> no
21:37:16  <frosch123> you can use link them globally
21:37:44  <frosch123> register 0 for style, register 1 for position, ...
21:38:00  <frosch123> s/use/just/
21:38:11  <supermop> ok so i can have like:
21:38:30  <supermop> switch_style, <magic>;
21:39:06  <supermop> then STORE_TEMP(switch_style, 0)
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21:40:05  <frosch123> well, the point is, if you have a complicated formular for "position", you do not need to duplicate it for each "style"
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21:40:23  <frosch123> and you do not need to duplicate "stack" for each combination of "style" and "position"
21:45:20  <supermop> so this is my simplest tram:
21:45:22  <supermop>
21:45:44  <supermop> only one car, only two things to stack, only two random livery variations
21:46:38  <supermop> now i am adding trams with 5 cars, different things to stack on each, switch to vary which end gets pantograph, and special livery magic
21:46:58  <supermop> so i imagine it will make a big branching tree of switches
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22:00:49  <frosch123> supermop: <- same thing with recolouring and all combinations in a single switch
22:02:07  <frosch123> <- i missed some parentheses
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22:37:17  <supermop_home> ok back home
22:37:30  <supermop_home> @logs
22:37:30  <DorpsGek> supermop_home:
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