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00:26:23 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 00:28:13 *** Thedarkb-X40 has joined #openttd 00:42:52 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 01:09:03 *** glx has quit IRC 01:29:43 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 01:48:31 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 02:06:13 *** muffindrake2 has joined #openttd 02:08:05 *** muffindrake1 has quit IRC 02:35:54 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 02:48:06 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 03:01:37 <arahael> any openttd ports to ipad, by chance? 03:02:21 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 03:02:42 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has joined #openttd 03:04:26 *** muffindrake3 has joined #openttd 03:06:15 *** muffindrake2 has quit IRC 03:12:49 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 03:29:32 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 03:30:38 *** Mahjong1 has quit IRC 03:31:14 *** Mahjong has joined #openttd 03:36:35 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 04:54:47 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Darkvater 05:07:22 *** triolus has quit IRC 05:37:58 *** Cubey has quit IRC 05:41:43 *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd 05:55:36 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 05:55:36 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 05:55:44 <Alberth> moin 05:57:30 <Alberth> arahael: Apple considers GPL-based software evil, and does not allow it on its store etc 06:20:15 <arahael> Alberth: I heard that - seems to be a controversal topic. 06:20:45 <Alberth> in what way? 06:21:12 <arahael> Alberth: I hear mixed reports there, and apparently the actual agreement doesn't mention the GPL specifically. (I still need to read it) 06:21:20 <Alberth> openttd with loads of other gpl-based software was added in the beginning, and at one day, apple removed it because "not compatible with our TOS" 06:21:39 <arahael> Did they say why? 06:22:06 <Alberth> I never actually read it 06:22:24 <Alberth> Apple is too closed source for me to ever consider buying anything from them 06:22:34 <arahael> The actual approval/removal on the app store does seem to... Vary, to put it mildly. 06:23:02 <arahael> Yeah, lets not go there. :) 06:23:16 <arahael> They make nice devices, but apple aren't a computing platform. 06:23:28 <arahael> Even if they are - technically - computers, they might as well not be. 06:23:48 <Alberth> the crap is that users don't expect that apple controls what software they can run 06:24:01 <Alberth> so they come here, and ask why etc 06:24:45 <arahael> Just tell it was added, but they got removed as apple didn't like it. :) 06:24:51 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:25:05 <Alberth> likely there is a discussion with more details on the forum 06:25:13 <Alberth> moin andy 06:25:32 <arahael> Yeah, honestly I didn't really want to debate about this, I just wanted a simple yes/no answer - and if yes, which one it was. :) 06:26:23 <arahael> Concerning that you say it was specifically removed due to the GPL, though. 06:26:31 <arahael> Because I was hoping that Gnucash could be ported to it. 06:26:42 <andythenorth> well 06:26:49 <andythenorth> moin 06:27:26 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest2 06:27:27 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 06:27:47 <Alberth> you may want to read their tos, the answer should be there 06:27:59 <arahael> Alberth: I intend to. 06:28:16 <arahael> Alberth: Worst case comes to worse: Gnucash could be a source-only install. :) 06:28:30 <arahael> Alberth: And ditto for openttd, if it exists with that port. 06:29:37 <Alberth> given that about 101% of the ipad users can't compile things, that won't do much good :p 06:29:57 <arahael> Alberth: I'm a fairly selfish type of person, I've noticed. ;) 06:30:09 <andythenorth> Apple appear to remove GPL stuff 06:30:51 * andythenorth back to trains 06:31:03 <arahael> andythenorth: That, if true, is going to be very interesting: It implies that the LGPL licence is also bad... And that you therefore can't use Qt or thel ike without really expensive licenses. 06:31:06 *** synchris has joined #openttd 06:31:09 <Alberth> is ipad even usable for openttd? you need a fast processor for it 06:31:21 <andythenorth> ipad benchmarks are nearly as high as my mac 06:31:24 <SpComb> trains are more fun than apple and GPL 06:31:29 *** Guest2 has quit IRC 06:31:29 <andythenorth> insane fast for a piece of glass 06:31:35 <andythenorth> it's ridiculous 06:31:42 <arahael> Alberth: The latest A10/A11 processors are as fast as the intel laptops. It's insane. 06:31:48 <Alberth> nice 06:31:49 <andythenorth> but still a very restricted annoying device 06:31:51 <andythenorth> we have 2 06:31:56 <arahael> Alberth: There are rumours that Apple might be switching to them for their laptops. 06:32:15 <arahael> andythenorth: I actually bought the iPhonef or security reasons - Android is pretty crap there, and is less open than people think. 06:32:16 <andythenorth> the rationale for Apple removing GPL is that App Store ToS violate the GPL 06:32:21 <Alberth> A10/11 are arm processors? 06:32:25 <andythenorth> rather than the other way around 06:32:29 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest3 06:32:30 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 06:32:38 <andythenorth> https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement 06:32:45 <arahael> Alberth: Modified ARM, yes. They have additional changes to them, secure enclave, etcetera, along with other speed enchancements. 06:32:54 <arahael> andythenorth: Thanks for that link! 06:33:26 <andythenorth> Sophie Wilson's design went a long way eh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Wilson 06:33:34 <Alberth> ah, I once owned one of the early arms, and with 8MHz beated a 80386 at 40MHz :) 06:34:18 <Alberth> so yeah, the thing is fast :) 06:34:58 <peter1138> The remaining legacy of British computing success... 06:36:31 *** Guest3 has quit IRC 06:37:17 <Alberth> nice link :) 06:37:41 <andythenorth> but nobody has open-source cloned Chocks Away eh 06:37:54 <arahael> Woo! Awesome - and she's a woman. :) 06:38:19 <Alberth> andy: I got as far as an empty window at the screen :p 06:38:33 *** Progman has joined #openttd 06:38:37 <andythenorth> https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-hutchings-8820346/ 06:38:48 <Alberth> so a clone exists, it just isn't very playable yet :p 06:39:02 <andythenorth> I could just ask him on LinkedIn if we can ^^ 06:40:00 <Alberth> hmm, could be a nice project for playing with a game engine 06:40:42 <Alberth> but need to finish some java first 06:40:42 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 06:40:52 <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXwnoiDetgM 06:44:20 <andythenorth> so good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WEftxBm_sY 06:54:58 <Alberth> indeed :) 07:03:14 <peter1138> VR chocks away pls 07:08:04 <Alberth> haha, would be nice, but not me, too much troubled by motion sickness 07:11:38 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:13:41 <peter1138> I don't get it in seated games, cos I'm seated. 07:25:31 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 07:38:10 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 07:40:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 08:20:52 *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC 08:21:54 <TrueBrain> morning 08:22:00 <andythenorth> lo TrueBrain 08:22:06 <TrueBrain> first time CI keeps a PR from happening for the right reasons :D 08:26:31 <andythenorth> :) 08:44:33 <TrueBrain> so what is on the agenda today .. owh, yeah, I was going to disable svn access :D 08:45:22 <andythenorth> so when are we getting conveyor belts? o_O 08:45:27 <andythenorth> as a transport type 08:45:51 <TrueBrain> wrong game andythenorth :) 08:45:54 <SpComb> no, power grids. It makes no sense for power 08:45:57 <TrueBrain> V453000 would not appreciate that :D 08:46:05 <SpComb> plants to not produce anything! 08:46:16 <andythenorth> it's fine 08:46:28 <andythenorth> conveyors, power grids, cable cars, etc 08:46:45 <andythenorth> they're implemented as vehicles, but with super hax 08:48:33 <andythenorth> it's conceptually hard and we'd probably get it wrong 08:48:39 <andythenorth> which is why we should try :) 08:48:46 <andythenorth> new ways to wreck stuff 08:48:49 <andythenorth> V453000 would agree 08:49:27 <Alberth> pipe grfs already exist :) 08:49:56 <andythenorth> they have to be used in an interesting way 08:51:17 <andythenorth> far as I can tell, this is the most efficient way to use them http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8961/PIPE.png 08:51:24 <andythenorth> transfers at 'pumping stations' 08:52:11 <andythenorth> although this also http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8960/PIPE-sea.png 08:53:14 <Alberth> looks good, pity about the depots 08:53:42 <TrueBrain> okay, svn is no longer reachable via svn.openttd.org, but only via svn-archive.openttd.org 08:53:43 <Alberth> hmm, enable breakdowns would emite black smoke from the pipe? 08:53:48 <andythenorth> :P 08:54:07 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: good, forwards :) 08:54:46 <TrueBrain> that should at least show all things that still used svn :D 08:54:56 <Alberth> hg patch queues could be imported into git, I guess? 08:55:03 <TrueBrain> sure 08:55:10 <TrueBrain> git apply <01> <02> <03> 08:55:14 <TrueBrain> possibly even: git apply * 08:55:18 <TrueBrain> never tried more than 1 file :) 08:55:25 <TrueBrain> (best thing about patch queues .. they are patches :D) 08:56:40 <Alberth> probably against old hgs :p but good, seems like the best solution 08:58:13 <TrueBrain> yeah, that is one thing I did find out .. a lot of people have very old patch-sets etc :D 09:00:10 <TrueBrain> is -Werror not in OpenTTD? Hmm .. that makes the CI a bit less useful 09:01:47 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: do you also have CONTRIBUTION.md on some fancy shared-edit site, or do you want comments over IRC? :) 09:02:06 <andythenorth> it's in my github fork 09:02:15 <andythenorth> could just PR it :P 09:02:24 <andythenorth> I am going out in about 2 mins btw 09:02:30 <TrueBrain> he's going out 09:02:34 <TrueBrain> he has the world to show 09:02:45 <andythenorth> and other lyrics 09:03:03 <andythenorth> beebles 09:03:03 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 09:16:15 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 09:49:20 *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd 09:55:51 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 10:03:54 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 10:07:21 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 10:18:33 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 10:25:59 *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC 10:43:04 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 10:57:37 *** agentw4b has joined #openttd 11:12:21 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 11:21:03 <FLHerne> FWIW: I got shut out of the channel by the user limit yesterday, perhaps it would be a good idea to raise it? 11:21:22 <FLHerne> It's clearly possible to have more than 160 people or so 11:21:34 <FLHerne> Um, now my client says that +l isnt set anymore 11:21:40 <FLHerne> Was there some particular reason? 11:23:51 <peter1138> TrueBrain having fun probably. 11:26:30 <LordAro> FLHerne: it got set to 99 when updating the topic for some reason 11:26:51 <FLHerne> Ah 11:37:25 *** gelignite has quit IRC 11:41:42 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 11:54:58 <andythenorth> but 11:55:55 <Alberth> huh, g++ accepts "-dumpversion" ??? 11:56:27 <Alberth> gnu dropped their gnu option conventions? 11:57:09 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 11:58:59 <Alberth> hola 12:00:21 <LordAro> quak 12:01:37 <andythenorth> ok TB I merged TB's changes here 12:01:38 <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/CONTRIBUTING.md/CONTRIBUTING.md 12:01:38 <Alberth> LordAro: ccache doesn't understand the -dumpversion 12:01:45 <andythenorth> is that structure now correct? 12:01:52 <andythenorth> can just fill out the ALL CAPS BITS? 12:01:55 <frosch123> hoi 12:02:46 <Alberth> not sure you can even detect that though, as it redirects the path 12:09:33 <TrueBrain> Alberth: -dumpversion and -dumpspecs has been working since GCC 2.95 or so 12:09:38 <TrueBrain> one ofthe odd ones :) 12:10:10 <Alberth> very :) 12:10:35 <TrueBrain> tnx michi_cc, for the comments; was trying to understand what your patch changes that regression failed .. I failed at that :D 12:13:15 <andythenorth> hmm Road Hog vehicles are missing from buy menu 12:13:22 <andythenorth> it's this vehicle expiry stuff again :( 12:13:27 <andythenorth> am I going to remove it for 3rd time? 12:14:57 *** Arveen has quit IRC 12:16:11 <andythenorth> the replacement for this truck has an intro date of 1940 12:16:13 <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pvdxdw1ys/md2ywx/raw 12:16:28 <andythenorth> the model life stuff is supposed to keep this one available until the replacement shows up 12:16:32 <andythenorth> but it fails 12:16:40 <andythenorth> what am I doing wrong? o_O 12:17:08 <andythenorth> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Engine_life_cycle 12:17:50 <TrueBrain> okay, upgrading eints .. how can I do this .. 12:18:01 <TrueBrain> wait, doesnt frosch123 have access to the VM? Can I not just tell him to do it? :P 12:18:10 <TrueBrain> he does! :P 12:18:18 <andythenorth> 1910 intro date, 69 year life, 30 year retire early 12:18:22 <andythenorth> should be gone in 1949 12:18:25 <andythenorth> it's gone in 1939 12:18:35 <frosch123> you did stuff with ansible and told me to not change stuff on the vm since ansible resets everything 12:18:45 <TrueBrain> then I stopped using Ansible :P 12:18:48 <TrueBrain> :D 12:19:20 <frosch123> is ansible uncool these days? 12:19:27 <TrueBrain> nah 12:19:30 <andythenorth> Ansible is Ansible 12:19:36 <TrueBrain> just without a test server, it is very difficult 12:19:38 <andythenorth> it's +/-0 on cool 12:19:51 <TrueBrain> and having a second server for OpenTTD neverhas been worth it 12:19:53 <andythenorth> it's dangerous to develop ansible scripts in production :) 12:20:04 <andythenorth> also sun rises in morning :P 12:20:09 <andythenorth> and other obvs. statements 12:20:30 <andythenorth> so why is model life broken then Eddi|zuHause? :( 12:20:32 <andythenorth> ^^^^^ 12:20:41 <TrueBrain> first I have to understand again how eints worked .. 12:21:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/eints/readme.txt <- that's the text i gave you last time 12:22:25 <TrueBrain> you should dockerize it! :D 12:22:27 <Alberth> haha :) 12:22:51 <Alberth> hmm, configure believes ccache is a compiler 12:23:05 <TrueBrain> ccache is intended to behave like that 12:23:06 <frosch123> anyway, somewhere you have a hg checkout from http://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd-eints 12:23:08 <TrueBrain> completely transparent 12:23:16 <TrueBrain> I just installed git 12:23:18 <frosch123> you need to pull there 12:23:35 <andythenorth> ugh, can I not just have a cb on all vehicles, 'vehicle of ID was introduced' :P 12:23:42 <TrueBrain> do I have to worry about all the .bupNN files? 12:23:44 <andythenorth> and then set availability correspondingly 12:24:08 <frosch123> no, eints always keeps 5 backups of everything or so 12:24:23 <andythenorth> hmm no an availability CB could deadlock trivially :P 12:24:25 <TrueBrain> I have 1 change in stable_languages/spanish_MX.txt 12:24:34 <frosch123> yes, i updated that 12:24:36 <TrueBrain> k 12:24:44 <TrueBrain> do I need to keep that, or can I just update? 12:25:05 <andythenorth> A is introduced, B retires, A retires because B was retired, B is introduced because A retired boom circular singularity 12:25:07 <andythenorth> world ends 12:25:23 <frosch123> if it was locally modified at your site, then i also pushed it yesterday 12:25:30 <frosch123> so, pull should give the same 12:25:51 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: How the hell is the regression test supposed to work? I think I found my error, but when I try to run regression locally, I get totally inconsistent and changing results. 12:26:25 <TrueBrain> regression set simply runs some predefined savegame, and runs a bunch of actions on it, knowing the result (given OpenTTD is deterministic if you set the srand) 12:26:35 <frosch123> michi_cc: i think your changes cause a different calls to random(), so everything changes 12:26:50 <TrueBrain> frosch123: how do I update hg again? 12:26:55 <TrueBrain> hg update didnt do anything, neither did hg pull 12:27:00 <frosch123> hg pull --rebase 12:27:13 <TrueBrain> rebase not recognized 12:27:32 <frosch123> does "hg qapplied" say anything? 12:27:37 <frosch123> if empty, then "hg pull -u" 12:27:44 <michi_cc> frosch123: I know that, but I get random pass/fails when just running regression multiple times on *unmodified* trunk. 12:27:57 <TrueBrain> unknown command qapplied 12:28:15 <frosch123> ok, then count that as "empty" :p 12:28:21 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: very odd; I dont have that issue, neither does the CI .. dunno :( 12:28:33 <TrueBrain> repository default not found 12:28:37 *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd 12:28:45 <TrueBrain> I really dont like hg anymore :D 12:29:01 <TrueBrain> default = https://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd-eints 12:29:03 <Alberth> too much git-washed :p 12:29:35 <frosch123> well, can you ping that url :p 12:29:48 <TrueBrain> yup 12:29:51 <TrueBrain> wget on the URL works 12:30:41 <frosch123> fresh clone also works for me 12:30:53 <TrueBrain> ah, I was trying it under root users; that failed 12:31:00 <TrueBrain> switching to right user gives me certificate error :D 12:31:24 <TrueBrain> let me upgrade the cas 12:31:25 <Alberth> ok, /usr/lib64/ccache/g++ points to /usr/bin/ccache, configure picks up g++, then resolve the real path which gives /usr/bin/ccache, and then tries -dumpversion on it 12:31:43 <TrueBrain> Alberth: what are you trying to do? :) 12:31:49 <Alberth> run ./configure 12:31:57 <TrueBrain> ccache is quiet a niche thing 12:32:05 <TrueBrain> ./configure --with-ccache works out-of-the-box for me btw :) 12:32:35 <Alberth> I don't even explicitly enable it, although fedora puts it in the path first 12:32:35 *** Brainzman has joined #openttd 12:32:45 <Brainzman> Hi ! 12:32:51 <Alberth> o/ 12:33:51 <Alberth> that configure line breaks for me 12:34:06 <TrueBrain> do you have a compiler installed? :D 12:34:17 <TrueBrain> (what is the error?) 12:34:22 <Alberth> do you need that??? :p 12:34:28 <TrueBrain> depends on what you want to do :D 12:34:32 <TrueBrain> why do you have ccache installed :P 12:34:41 <Alberth> /usr/bin/ccache: invalid option -- 'd' 12:35:14 <LordAro> is this my realpath stuff still breaking things? 12:35:19 <Alberth> and then some /home/alberth/openttd/play/config.lib: line 1378: [: -lt: unary operator expected as the result is empty string 12:35:37 <LordAro> yup. 12:36:04 <TrueBrain> so on Alberth's system ccache took over g++? 12:36:12 <Alberth> apparently with softlinks 12:36:15 <LordAro> i'd suggest it's an issue with your system that it's picking ccache/g++ over actual g++, but it should be handled properly 12:36:38 <Alberth> fedora adds it as default first in the path 12:36:44 <Alberth> if you install ccacje 12:36:48 <Alberth> *ccache 12:36:56 <TrueBrain> ah .. that is not what I would expect a system to do 12:36:59 <TrueBrain> but that does explain indeed :) 12:37:53 *** Thedarkb-X40 has quit IRC 12:38:13 <TrueBrain> the annoying part is, ccache uses "how" you executed it to know what he should run 12:38:17 <TrueBrain> (it is just a thin wrapper) 12:38:33 <TrueBrain> so ccache/gcc symlinks to ccache, but he sess you tried to run ccache/gcc, so it redirects to gcc 12:38:40 <TrueBrain> we now use realpath to find out what things REALLY point to 12:38:42 <TrueBrain> and so it breaks :D 12:38:53 <TrueBrain> so yeah, LordAro, possible your solution breaks more stuff :( 12:39:00 <LordAro> yay 12:39:11 <TrueBrain> you need another way to detect clang :P 12:39:48 <LordAro> PATH=/usr/lib64/ccache/bin/:$PATH ./configure confirmed 12:41:06 <frosch123> can't you use some "--version" 12:41:33 <LordAro> maybe 12:41:39 <LordAro> i was going for a simple change 12:41:43 <LordAro> simple change did not work 12:41:46 <TrueBrain> reminds me; frosch123, why doesn't OpenTTD have -Werror? Is there a good reason? It makes the CI a bit less useful :) 12:42:05 <LordAro> easier compatibility with different versions, i imagine 12:42:08 <Alberth> changes are never simple :( 12:42:27 <LordAro> i.e. there's a warning with latest gcc and a different one with latest clang 12:42:42 <TrueBrain> shouldnt both be fixed? :D Or I can add it to the CIs at least? 12:42:53 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i am not aware we have Werror :) 12:43:09 <LordAro> you could pass it in with CFLAGS 12:43:11 <TrueBrain> frosch123: that is what I say .. we don't; so you awareness is correct :) 12:43:11 <frosch123> makefile stuff was always done by rb and sz, now la :) 12:43:13 <LordAro> since they work now :) 12:43:34 <frosch123> oh, i missed the negation 12:44:15 <frosch123> TrueBrain: in that case i think the 9x farm always had tons of warnings 12:44:39 <TrueBrain> okay, so I will just add in the CIs that they should enable it, for those we care about :) 12:44:51 <frosch123> so, imho first get all targets, then see the implications of enabling Werror :) 12:44:53 <peter1138> Just add it always. 12:45:01 <peter1138> Hmm, yeah, maybe that :p 12:45:40 <TrueBrain> okay, updated the eints box .. hopefully that fixes the certificate issues .. 12:46:11 <TrueBrain> nope 12:46:14 <TrueBrain> weird 12:46:34 <frosch123> my test vm had jessie, and that was too old 12:46:39 <frosch123> i updated it to stable 12:46:39 <TrueBrain> right, ignored the certificate 12:46:45 <TrueBrain> I have updated eints :D 12:47:50 <frosch123> i have no rights to delete ~transaltors/eints/openttd_lang 12:48:07 <frosch123> do i need to su to translators or something? 12:48:07 <TrueBrain> lets have 1 person working on 1 job :D 12:48:20 <TrueBrain> if me and you both work for the same goal, shit goes wrong real quick :D 12:48:29 <frosch123> aw, i can't backseat work you? 12:48:39 <TrueBrain> only in a shared screen :) 12:48:58 <TrueBrain> and yes, you need to su to translators for any actions 12:49:19 <frosch123> anyway, eints/openttd_lang can be deleted, eints-svn needs to be replaced with a git clone 12:49:42 <TrueBrain> eints-svn is only of the lang folder .. is that also the case for git? 12:49:43 <andythenorth> @calc 1910 + 69 - 8 - 30 12:49:43 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1941 12:49:47 <TrueBrain> or do the scripts takes care of that? 12:49:56 <LordAro> frosch123: screen -x 12:49:57 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i changed that, the scripts now expect src/lang 12:50:24 <TrueBrain> okay 12:50:45 <TrueBrain> checkout is running 12:51:13 <andythenorth> @calc 1940 + 17 12:51:13 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1957 12:51:15 <andythenorth> hmm 12:51:51 <TrueBrain> frosch123: anything else? 12:52:05 <frosch123> commit-to-svn.sh and update-from-svn.sh 12:52:19 <TrueBrain> I did update-from- .. so I can run that now, not? 12:52:19 <frosch123> replace all occurences of "svn" with "git" 12:52:24 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 12:52:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 12:52:28 <frosch123> i.e. scrript name is now eintsgit.py 12:52:38 <TrueBrain> owh, but eints has to run for that if I remember correctly? 12:52:51 <frosch123> and commands are update-from-git and commit-to-git 12:53:06 <TrueBrain> cool; always happy if things are what I expect them to be :D 12:53:12 <frosch123> yes, it has to run when you run the scripts 12:53:52 <frosch123> you can add a "--dry-run" to "commit-to-git", that will commit but stop before pushing 12:53:55 *** Arveen has joined #openttd 12:54:11 <TrueBrain> but let me first get eints up and running again .. 12:54:16 <TrueBrain> it fails to load 12:54:57 <TrueBrain> logs show nothing that helps :( 12:56:48 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 12:56:49 <frosch123> do they show anything? 12:56:50 <TrueBrain> can eints not start without openttd_lang folder or something? 12:56:58 <TrueBrain> process starts, and stops immediatly 12:57:11 <TrueBrain> produces no logs as far as I can spot 12:57:33 <frosch123> openttd_lang folder is only temporary 12:58:01 <TrueBrain> let me try the 'run' thingy 12:58:05 <TrueBrain> that seems to take longer to do something 12:58:20 <frosch123> it reads all the data on start, takes like 10 seconds or so 12:58:40 <TrueBrain> ah, no folder to drop the pid file 12:58:40 <frosch123> when it says something about bottle and ctrl-c, it is done 12:59:14 <TrueBrain> again, it outputs NOTHING 12:59:19 <TrueBrain> it just stops :( 12:59:31 <TrueBrain> pid folder didnt help 12:59:34 *** tokai has quit IRC 12:59:44 <TrueBrain> ah 12:59:47 <TrueBrain> stop && start 12:59:50 <TrueBrain> did work now 12:59:58 <TrueBrain> (I hate sysv wrappers) 13:00:33 <TrueBrain> any change sin config.xml needed? 13:00:55 <frosch123> no 13:01:07 <TrueBrain> okay .. update-from-git finished 13:01:18 <TrueBrain> nothing broke, I think 13:01:24 <TrueBrain> (but also no new strings, so who can tell :D) 13:02:24 <TrueBrain> running commit-to-git with -dry-run 13:02:56 <TrueBrain> where can I see the result for that? :D 13:03:20 <frosch123> in eints-git: git show HEAD 13:03:28 <TrueBrain> nothing 13:03:32 <TrueBrain> can be that there are no changes I guess? 13:03:38 <frosch123> commit-to-git always does a hard reset to origin/master, then adds one commit if something changed 13:03:51 <TrueBrain> so I need a change :D 13:04:16 <TrueBrain> can you see in the interface what is pending btw? 13:04:28 <frosch123> nope 13:04:31 <michi_cc> Still no idea why I can't run regression reliable; let's just use the CI service for that :) 13:04:42 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: what compiler / OS? 13:04:52 <frosch123> german, dutch and french are up-to-date 13:04:55 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: as I also cannot really imagine why it wouldnt .. it is kinda build to be reliable :) 13:04:58 <michi_cc> Debian 13:05:06 <frosch123> do we speak any other languages? :p 13:05:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am just going to change a string back and forth 13:05:25 <TrueBrain> creates 2 commits I assume :P 13:05:41 <TrueBrain> (where the second resets the first) 13:06:10 <frosch123> it does a hard reset, so there is always only one commit ahead of origin 13:06:29 <TrueBrain> owh, but if I enable login, people can make real changes too 13:06:45 <frosch123> does not matter? 13:06:45 <TrueBrain> but I still have some things to work out .. namely: how is it going to commit, and more importantly, how does it know to update :D 13:06:48 <frosch123> they are not lost 13:06:54 <TrueBrain> fair enough 13:07:37 <TrueBrain> what is the update_openttd_langs script doing again? 13:07:39 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: And BTW, you probably didn't find the regression error because you've been looking at the wrong commit :) Off-by-one in the first commit. 13:07:46 <frosch123> TrueBrain: if push notification is too complicated, just make a cronjob :) 13:07:57 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I was wondering about that, but it looks fine :P 13:08:07 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it creates a shallow clone, and transfers the language defintions from ottd into eints 13:08:31 <frosch123> i..e ottd source is master for language definitions, and that script updates eints 13:08:47 <TrueBrain> ah 13:08:59 <TrueBrain> ah, yes, it runs every night at 19:00 CE(S)T 13:09:45 <TrueBrain> still impressed by the quality of work here .. no fixes for months, and no complaints either :) 13:10:39 <TrueBrain> trying a commit now .. lets see how it looks .. 13:10:40 <frosch123> on devzone it automaticaly created a ticket when it throws an exception 13:10:49 <TrueBrain> smart :D 13:11:10 <TrueBrain> we can make that for OpenTTD: auto-create-issue-on-crash :D 13:11:33 <TrueBrain> lol, commit failed because there is no user.email and user.name set :D 13:12:35 <Alberth> :D 13:12:41 <TrueBrain> frosch123: your commit_user is translator@openttd.org .. isnt it translators? (plural) 13:12:58 <frosch123> i took it from the contacts page 13:13:11 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 13:13:13 <frosch123> https://www.openttd.org/en/contact <- i never validated it :) 13:13:17 <TrueBrain> its plural in the git log :) 13:13:30 <TrueBrain> yeah .. translator is for questions 13:13:33 <TrueBrain> translators is for the group 13:13:43 <TrueBrain> the commit message no longer mentions eints; intentional? 13:13:58 <frosch123> i had to adjust it for the commit-hook :) 13:14:06 <TrueBrain> that is just the first word :) 13:14:44 <frosch123> anyway, you can change both at the top of the script 13:14:54 *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC 13:14:59 <TrueBrain> the first I did, but the commit message is a bit up to you ofc :) 13:15:16 <frosch123> Alberth: do you want explicit advertisement for eints? :) 13:15:54 <Alberth> what does that mean? 13:15:59 <TrueBrain> btw, I somehow dislike: Update: Translations. I rather have: Update: translations (lowercase t) 13:16:12 <TrueBrain> Alberth: eints commits used to read: -Update from eints: ... 13:16:17 <TrueBrain> it mentioned it came from eints 13:16:31 <Alberth> oh, don't care about that 13:16:33 <frosch123> now it is "Update: Translations" 13:16:43 <TrueBrain> now it is "Update: translations" 13:16:46 <TrueBrain> fuck that capital T :P 13:16:48 <TrueBrain> :D:D 13:17:50 <frosch123> "Update: Translations from eints"? 13:18:05 <TrueBrain> without capital T, sure :) 13:18:29 <TrueBrain> Update: translations (from eints)? 13:18:32 <TrueBrain> Update: translations (via eints)? 13:18:42 <frosch123> no parentheses 13:18:50 <frosch123> via/from i don'T care 13:18:55 <TrueBrain> what is corerct english? :D 13:19:13 <TrueBrain> translations, brought to you by the wonderful system called eints! 13:19:25 <Alberth> +1! :D 13:19:36 <Alberth> couldn't find the right wording for it 13:19:49 <peter1138> Both work. The translations are from eints, but technically it's the translaters doing them, via eints. 13:19:59 <andythenorth> does anybody understand this? o_O https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Engine_life_cycle 13:20:03 <peter1138> translators 13:20:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: i had a tool for that, but never finished it 13:20:28 <TrueBrain> Update: translations from eints 13:20:31 <TrueBrain> for now this will have to do :) 13:20:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: :P 13:20:50 <Alberth> Updated translations from eints ? 13:20:58 <andythenorth> I did degree level engineering maths, but I can't work out the simple arithemtic 13:21:04 <Alberth> oh, not good commit style 13:21:06 <TrueBrain> :D 13:21:18 <TrueBrain> owh, commit style also says capital after : 13:21:20 <TrueBrain> dammit 13:21:24 <TrueBrain> it is not the start of a new sentence ffs :P 13:21:45 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, set retire_early to some percentage of the engine-livetime 13:22:01 <andythenorth> well pikka gave me some numbers 13:22:03 <andythenorth> and they don't work 13:22:09 <andythenorth> and previously eddi gave me numbers 13:22:11 <andythenorth> and they don't work 13:22:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: that way all freshly purchased engines have full reliability, but the very last ones degrade at the end of their lifetime 13:22:23 <andythenorth> reliability I couldn't care less tbh :) 13:22:37 <andythenorth> I need to remove the vehicle from purchase list reliably 13:22:46 <andythenorth> allowing that replacement is random(17) 13:23:00 <andythenorth> which is hard to handle 13:23:10 <andythenorth> in a static property 13:23:14 <frosch123> TrueBrain: commit checker only checks for space after :, not for capital 13:23:35 <TrueBrain> yeah, but the wiki is clear about the capital there :) 13:23:58 <frosch123> i always put a capital there 13:24:06 <TrueBrain> okay .. so that leaves me figuring out how/when to update, and how to make sure it can write 13:24:13 <TrueBrain> you silly :P :D 13:24:15 <frosch123> rb switched at some pointer from uppercase to lowercase, which annoyed me when writing the changelog 13:24:28 <TrueBrain> just pick one, and stick with it :) 13:24:37 <frosch123> changelog has all uppercase 13:24:37 <TrueBrain> for now, I think I will just make him update every hour or so 13:26:27 <TrueBrain> 15 * * * * 13:26:32 <TrueBrain> is when eints update from git 13:26:45 <TrueBrain> the to-git is harder to test without a change 13:26:50 <TrueBrain> so I need a change! :D 13:26:55 <TrueBrain> (a valid one) 13:27:14 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I assume it just does a push? 13:27:17 <TrueBrain> (not a forced one) 13:27:25 <frosch123> yes 13:27:28 <TrueBrain> good 13:27:42 <frosch123> also, i pushed the commit-message changes, so you can get rid of the modifies 13:28:18 <TrueBrain> done 13:28:21 <TrueBrain> tnx 13:30:49 <TrueBrain> okay .. this should basically "just work" 13:31:12 <frosch123> :) 13:31:18 <TrueBrain> disabled the cron for now, so I can test it out when I am active 13:31:22 <TrueBrain> instead of it happening by acceident :) 13:31:25 <TrueBrain> accident 13:33:54 <andythenorth> eh it just doesn't work 13:33:59 <andythenorth> oops, more 'it' 13:34:34 <andythenorth> a vehicle introduced in 1915, with model life of 44 should retire in 1959 13:34:55 <andythenorth> it retires in 1963 13:35:07 <andythenorth> the docs are wrong 13:35:38 * andythenorth has to read src :| 13:37:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: tnx a lot, this all seems to work nicely :) 13:37:21 <TrueBrain> frosch123: can you look at the README.md pull request? It seems good/complete to me 13:38:53 <andythenorth> e->duration_phase_2 = GB(r, 5, 4) + ei->base_life * 12 - 96; 13:39:01 <andythenorth> r seems to be random bits 13:39:20 <andythenorth> is the length of phase 2 randomised? 13:40:00 <andythenorth> maybe I wait Eddi, you are all busy with more important stuff 13:40:59 <andythenorth> maybe I have to account for phase 1 as well 13:44:19 <andythenorth> src so much better than docs :) 13:44:27 * andythenorth could probably help fix that :P 13:47:44 <andythenorth> hmm nope, still broken 13:48:32 <Alberth> 4 bits, starting at bit 5 ? 13:49:01 <Alberth> @calc 96.0/12 13:49:01 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 8 13:50:02 <andythenorth> so it's base_life - 8 + random(8) 13:50:10 <Alberth> so, 'base_life' years, minus 8 year, +/- 8 months 13:50:20 <andythenorth> hmm 13:50:25 <andythenorth> thanks 13:50:31 <Alberth> oh, sorry, + 0..16 months 13:50:37 <Alberth> *15 13:50:38 <andythenorth> trying to retire vehicles is ~ waste of time imho 13:51:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 13:51:09 <andythenorth> the only safe way to do it is leave them around for a very long time 13:51:13 <andythenorth> in which case, why both? 13:51:16 <Alberth> just make base_life long enough :) 13:51:30 <andythenorth> then they don't disappear from buy menu for a very long time 13:51:34 <andythenorth> seems pointless :) 13:51:43 <andythenorth> doesn't help the player at all 13:52:03 <Alberth> I always hide vehicles that have become obsolete 13:52:16 <andythenorth> that hide button is very helpful 13:53:11 <Alberth> just make it equal to the time until the next vehicle? 13:53:22 <Alberth> or +1 year extra 13:53:35 <andythenorth> I added 1 for safety 13:53:41 <andythenorth> and some other offsets 'for safety' 13:54:21 <Alberth> if you don't want retirement, enable 'never expires' :) 13:55:00 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 13:55:02 <Alberth> the alternative is the V approach, set it to 255 years :) 13:57:05 <andythenorth> maybe I should have left this open :P https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/5471 13:57:36 <TrueBrain> NO! BAD andythenorth! NO! No takebacks! BAD! :) 13:57:38 <TrueBrain> <3 :) 13:57:56 <frosch123> TrueBrain: readme looks good 13:58:13 <frosch123> some stuff is always outdated, but from a markdown point of view i like it 13:58:34 <TrueBrain> okay; I will take it up with him to get his PR mergeable :) 13:58:35 <TrueBrain> tnx! 13:59:02 <frosch123> i would like if the commit would contain a "git mv readme README.md" 13:59:06 <frosch123> so the history is kept 13:59:28 <TrueBrain> how wouldnt it otherwise? 13:59:39 <TrueBrain> owh, euh, I see what you mean 13:59:43 <TrueBrain> git figures these things mostly out himself 13:59:49 <TrueBrain> git mv rarely really does anything :P 13:59:56 <TrueBrain> git rm and git add has the same result :P 14:00:14 <TrueBrain> but yeah, lets see if we can get the author do just that :) 14:03:57 *** Arveen has quit IRC 14:05:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: these are the moments I wish I could just bypass the commit-message check and squash the whole commit; take the git complexity away from the author .. but I can see that go wrong real quick in other situations, so I tried to ask the author :D 14:06:30 <frosch123> funnily you can break the rules by entering a bad message when squashing :p 14:06:44 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yup :D 14:06:52 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: we need CONTRIBUTION :P 14:06:57 <TrueBrain> agentw4b: your issue report is way too short :( 14:10:01 <TrueBrain> basically, just repeating the title is rarely a good bug report :) 14:10:30 <TrueBrain> what version are you running, do you have an example snippet, what did you do, what did you expect, screenshot, anything more basically :) 14:10:33 <TrueBrain> help us help you 14:29:54 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 14:36:55 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 14:39:18 <_dp_> yay for github xD 14:39:41 <_dp_> I'll do PRs for my patches someday so no need to bother with those I guess 14:45:39 <_dp_> what's the point of "good first issue" on a patch? 14:48:17 *** Thedarkb-X40 has joined #openttd 14:48:53 <frosch123> the hope is that someone else does the work :) 14:49:20 <frosch123> oh, on a patch... no idea 14:51:38 <_dp_> well, I guess it's a good first issue to learn how to do PR xD 14:56:11 <andythenorth> oops 14:56:17 <andythenorth> forgot the game has level crossings :P 15:01:04 <TrueBrain> I put some good-first-issues on very small existing patches 15:01:11 <TrueBrain> that someone needs to pickup and make a PR out of :) 15:01:36 <TrueBrain> frosch123: what prefix for the README stuff? 15:01:41 <TrueBrain> (in commit message) 15:01:52 <TrueBrain> Doc I guess? 15:03:05 *** tyteen4a03 has joined #openttd 15:03:22 <tyteen4a03> Are there any plans to bring 64bit builds to osx? 15:05:02 <TrueBrain> good question; we are cross compiling for OSX, which is sub-optimal 15:05:07 <frosch123> Doc, Update, Change, all fine 15:05:10 <TrueBrain> hopefully we can get it to work, but ..... 15:05:13 <TrueBrain> frosch123: k k :) Tnx 15:05:26 <TrueBrain> tyteen4a03: so if you have any experience with cross compiling and Docker :D 15:05:50 <tyteen4a03> I have experience in docker but not for cross-compliation unfortunately 15:07:04 <TrueBrain> so yeah .. we are currently rebuilding how we produce binaries; we will try to get the 64bit going; in https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-CF/tree/generated you can see earlier work (dockerfiles/Dockerfile-OSX). But no promises :) 15:07:25 <andythenorth> can I switch my local compile to 64bit? 15:07:42 <TrueBrain> you should 15:07:54 <TrueBrain> btw, I do need the 10.12 sdk and 10.13 sdk (does 10.14 exist?) 15:08:08 <andythenorth> 10.14 not afaik 15:08:17 <TrueBrain> I used to have a Mac so I could do that myself ... but not anymore :D 15:09:00 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/tpoechtrager/osxcross , under Packaging the SDK 15:09:04 <andythenorth> I probably have them somewhere 15:09:42 <TrueBrain> owh, he made it possible to do it on Linux these days 15:09:48 <TrueBrain> means I only need Xcode with those SDKs in there :) 15:10:00 <TrueBrain> so nevermind, I can do this :D 15:10:04 <andythenorth> k 15:10:07 <TrueBrain> if I remember my AppleID... 15:10:08 <TrueBrain> owh dear 15:12:34 <TrueBrain> I wonder if you can run OSX on XenServer these days .. that would solve so much :D 15:13:34 <andythenorth> unlikely 15:14:00 <TrueBrain> last time it all worked, except for the clock .. it went too quick :D 15:14:13 <andythenorth> seems VMWare can host virtualised OS X allegedly 15:14:28 <TrueBrain> owh well: FOOD! 15:15:09 <_dp_> TrueBrain, btw, is it still not possible to use your compile farm for our patchpack? 15:15:28 <andythenorth> not yet 15:15:40 <_dp_> damn 15:15:46 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I considered buying us one of these :P https://www.macincloud.com/ 15:16:12 <_dp_> I'm so fed up compiling it myself that even skipped 1.7.2 xD 15:17:43 <_dp_> if I use your docker containers, does it at least compile for windows? 15:17:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: TrueBrain: LordAro: Alberth: https://github.com/frosch123/bananas2/blob/master/docs/overview.md <- want to PR some changes/additions? :) 15:20:22 <LordAro> not sure how patches/patchpacks could work through bananas 15:20:32 <LordAro> there would have to be some sort of intermediate launcher program 15:20:46 <frosch123> there is a details section after the summary 15:20:54 <LordAro> ah 15:21:01 <LordAro> i'd read all of that except the last sentence :p 15:21:23 * andythenorth reading 15:22:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: no changes from me 15:22:54 <andythenorth> I wonder if we really need a moderator layer 15:22:55 <andythenorth> but eh 15:24:16 <frosch123> yes, kamnet :) 15:24:45 <frosch123> someone who crawls through all stuff and assigned labels consistently 15:28:39 <andythenorth> ok 15:28:52 <andythenorth> curator 15:29:27 <frosch123> also the option to comment may open gates to hell 15:29:28 <andythenorth> which python framework shall we try next? o_O 15:31:17 <_dp_> andythenorth, which have you tried? 15:35:33 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:36:49 <andythenorth> zope, pyramid, bottle, and very very briefly, django 15:39:41 <_dp_> andythenorth, flask then :p 15:39:53 * _dp_ absolutely loves flask 15:42:23 <_dp_> though I almost have my own one on top of it already xD 15:43:32 <andythenorth> that's kind of the point :P 15:46:57 <Alberth> I wonder about presets without versions 15:47:24 <Alberth> technically one may want to have some form of range of versions, but that may be too complicated 15:47:58 <Alberth> "major version" would be likely useful? 15:49:12 <andythenorth> I change grfid when changing major version 15:49:15 <andythenorth> dunno about others 15:49:37 <Alberth> could work too 15:49:49 <_dp_> damn, got an unexpected problem doing PRs... I forgot C++ xD 15:50:06 <Alberth> but having a version for everything, and a 63 entries long grf list explodes a bit 15:57:45 *** agentw4b has quit IRC 15:57:50 *** agentw4b has joined #openttd 15:58:29 <Alberth> preset is now a list of grf filenames + parameter settings, it seems 15:58:50 <Alberth> no version whatsoever, unless you parse the filename 16:00:07 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 16:02:15 <frosch123> i would not think that you download multiple versions of a preset 16:02:31 <frosch123> it's more about offering a version that matches your version of ottd 16:03:01 <Alberth> I mean version of grfs 16:03:49 <frosch123> well, they have a md5sum 16:03:57 <frosch123> you can update them in-game 16:04:02 <Alberth> "...usually contain updated references to the NewGRF versions." <-- if all 63 entries change regularly, the number of preset files explodes 16:04:08 <frosch123> just that noone knows whether the parameters still work the same :) 16:06:32 <Alberth> so you can make a preset with some grf names and a non-existing md5sum, and in ottd you can update? 16:07:48 <Alberth> maybe not relevant enough 16:08:29 <frosch123> ok, maybe only one version of preset, but the preset gives a range on the grf versions it works with 16:10:54 <_dp_> hm, how do I add PR for an issue? just open a new one like this? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6726 16:11:30 <frosch123> _dp_: go to the branch of your fork 16:11:37 <frosch123> press the "make pr" button at the top 16:12:10 <frosch123> for an issue, just reference the issue in the commit message 16:12:49 <_dp_> frosch123, yeah, that's what i did. mentioned in pr description though instead of commit 16:18:04 <_dp_> oh, it checks commit messages o_O 16:18:15 <_dp_> can I edit message on a commit somehow? 16:19:53 <Alberth> interactive rebase allows "rewording" of commit messages 16:20:07 <Alberth> if only the top commit, git ci --amend will work 16:20:36 <Alberth> obviously the hash changes, so anything relying on that breaks 16:21:19 <Alberth> "ci" == "commit" 16:22:43 <_dp_> Alberth, yeah, now it tries to merge... 16:23:39 <_dp_> guess I'll just have to close that request and create a new one 16:23:47 <LordAro> learn to rebase 16:24:35 <Alberth> merge? rebase exists in 2 flavours 16:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so why is model life broken then Eddi|zuHause? :( <-- what excatly is your problem? 16:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> model life is a bit weird 16:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause> because there's a phase 1, phase 2 and phase 3 which add some random offsets 16:26:48 <Alberth> no need to close the request, just force-push an update 16:27:01 <Alberth> after you're done and happy :) 16:28:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it was the random offsets causing problems 16:29:10 <andythenorth> it's non-obvious that one has to account for phase 1 as well 16:29:20 <andythenorth> and there seems to be a need to add 1 year for luck 16:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah 16:29:37 <andythenorth> I did read ottd src in the end, much clearer there 16:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i did have some magic number in CETS for exactly this problem 16:30:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i never really tested it though 16:30:24 <andythenorth> you did, but when I tried it in Squid it didn't work for me 16:30:42 <andythenorth> pikka gave me a number also that didn't work :) 16:30:58 <andythenorth> I did the maths with paper + pencil in the end :P 16:32:09 *** Brainzman has quit IRC 16:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the number in CETS i just pulled out of thin air with the intention to properly test it one day and adjust it, but i never did 16:32:30 *** Brainzman has joined #openttd 16:32:42 <andythenorth> :) 16:33:10 *** Brainzman is now known as Guest39 16:33:11 <TrueBrain> frosch123: seems the commit-checker has issues with utf-8 :D 16:33:47 <_dp_> where can I find a list of sections to use in commit message? 16:33:57 <_dp_> : ([<section])? <Details>' 16:34:21 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a link posted a few days ago 16:34:48 <TrueBrain> _dp_: anything, basically. Not always needed too 16:34:49 <Alberth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Commit_style#Commit_message 16:35:09 <TrueBrain> most common it is used for stuff like NoAI, OSX, .. 16:35:37 <TrueBrain> frosch123: would you mind taking a look at why 6725 fails on the commit checker exactly? 16:36:17 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 16:36:19 <frosch123> commit-checker only allows ascii 16:36:34 <TrueBrain> frosch123: check-diff too 16:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "Codechange, Cleanup" <-- i'd say "Codechange" is for things like refactoring, and "Cleanup" is for things like codestyle 16:36:45 <TrueBrain> which is a bit odd, given we said source files can ben UTF-8 :) 16:37:07 <Alberth> they can? 16:37:24 <Alberth> c++ allows that nowadays? 16:37:30 <TrueBrain> commentts etc 16:37:34 <TrueBrain> strings 16:37:46 <TrueBrain> but editorconfig says it can be utf-8 :D 16:37:46 <Eddi|zuHause> do we really want that? 16:37:47 <frosch123> hmm, anyway, that's not the error it is supposed to give 16:37:50 <TrueBrain> in this case, README :) 16:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> for strings we have langfiles 16:38:07 <frosch123> TrueBrain: we do english, so what special chars are there? 16:38:18 <frosch123> also source has always been ascii with \u escapes 16:38:20 <Eddi|zuHause> emojis 16:38:22 <Alberth> you get loads of problems with file encoding 16:38:27 <TrueBrain> I dunno; it was asked when owen added editorconfig and the answer was a clear: utf-8 :) 16:38:35 <TrueBrain> so something went wrong in that communication :D 16:38:41 <frosch123> oi, though maybe i barfed on language files :p 16:38:45 <TrueBrain> either way, README needs utf-8, as it has peoples name in it :) 16:38:55 <frosch123> oi, people names :) 16:39:02 <frosch123> yes, i'll change it to source files only 16:39:18 <TrueBrain> thank you :) 16:39:27 <TrueBrain> (and we will find many more small issues over time :D) 16:40:11 <LordAro> pretty sure C++ doesn't have any ascii related restrictions 16:40:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: also means we have to update .editorconfig to reflect that btw :) 16:42:13 <frosch123> there was no option for ascii 16:42:31 <frosch123> not sure whether i complained loud about that 16:43:07 <LordAro> i see no reason to disallow non-ascii, tbh 16:43:14 <LordAro> not in the checker, anyway 16:46:01 <_dp_> It's kind of weird to have commit checker on PR considering it would likely be squashed on merging anyway 16:46:49 <_dp_> message format is pointless if it's just a history of fixing same issue 16:46:53 <Alberth> i'd hope it doesnt 16:47:45 <Alberth> having many small commits helps a lot in figuring out what the heck was done 16:50:28 <frosch123> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks/pull/4 16:50:44 <TrueBrain> damn, you work fast 16:51:26 <frosch123> it's the third time i rename the "checktabs" variable :p 16:51:32 <TrueBrain> yup :D 16:52:33 *** glx has joined #openttd 16:52:33 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 16:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i think it's still a bit open whether the policy will be to "rebase" or to "squash" on merge, but the tendency was towards "rebase" 16:54:19 <frosch123> Alberth: c++11 added utf-8/16/32 literals for strings and (wide) characters 16:54:37 <frosch123> funnily c++17 added a utf-8 literal for regular characters 16:54:44 <frosch123> which is essentially an ascii check 16:55:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you're kind of in trouble when trying to fit a non-ascii utf8 character into a char variable :p 16:56:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: just as a reminder, if you allow multiple versions of a BaNaNaS uploaded entry, the ToS also needs changing; explicit it was added that this is not allowed, because a few (count: 2) didnt want that for their newgrfs 16:56:43 <Alberth> you may be lucky to have a weird processor, or a compiler with unsigned characters 16:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> like you're trying to fit a dangling multiform blob through a square hole 16:57:15 <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, but i consider that only as a matter of data migration and defaults 16:57:32 <TrueBrain> an updated ToS means people have to re-accept it :) 16:57:44 <TrueBrain> that is more what I aim at :) 16:57:47 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 16:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> like an email sent out to everyone with "if you don't reply within 2 weeks we assume you agree" 16:58:33 <frosch123> also doing PR just for updating the submodule hash is annoying 16:58:35 <TrueBrain> no; that is very very very very wrong Eddi|zuHause 16:59:04 <frosch123> my intention is to allow configuring a project like it was before 16:59:07 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, hm, ok. I guess I like squashing more 16:59:20 <frosch123> and default migrated items to that 16:59:40 <TrueBrain> the details we can work out fine :) I just wanted to make you aware it is against the current ToS :) 17:00:01 <frosch123> yes :) 17:00:19 <TrueBrain> (and to be clear, I am not against changing it :) ) 17:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: squashing might be a option for smaller things, but if you're getting to the scale of NRT or cargodist or something, you probably don't want squash 17:01:08 <TrueBrain> frosch123: your overview mostly describes what is changing; not what is currently offered. Possibly it is good to make a total picture, not the diff? :) 17:01:11 *** Guest39 is now known as Brainzman 17:01:21 <frosch123> also i arrived at a state where i randomly try to use "svn pull", "hg pull" and "git update" :p 17:02:05 <LordAro> ^ 17:02:30 <frosch123> TrueBrain: yep 17:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: edit your prompt so it says what kind of repo you're in right now? 17:02:34 <peter1138> Openttd was the last thing I used svn for. 17:02:49 <frosch123> i have svn at work, and that won't change for years 17:03:25 <TrueBrain> frosch123: looks nice, BaNaNaS2 :) 17:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well you could use git locally and nobody will ever notice :p 17:04:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: alternatively, just alias svn/hg/git to a script that checks what repo you are in, and does The Right Thing (tm) 17:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause> :p 17:05:07 <peter1138> TrueBrain, damn, this reviewing PR things is awesome. 17:05:17 <TrueBrain> much better than writing in a bug ticket, not? :D 17:05:23 <frosch123> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-CF/pull/6 17:05:26 <peter1138> I'd probably have not looked at the patch before :p 17:05:45 <TrueBrain> ty frosch123 :) 17:06:05 <peter1138> I had svn at work but switched to git years ago, cos... well, nobody else was using it. 17:07:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i was at the point where i could decide for myself what i use, and after trying a bit i decided for hg, because it has a better GUI on windows 17:08:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: and it picked up trailing whitespaces :D \o/ nice! 17:17:10 <frosch123> TrueBrain: anyway, main thing why i wrote that thing today was to point out, that i think bananas2 should be used to offer patchpacks 17:17:26 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 17:17:56 <TrueBrain> go big or go home :) 17:18:01 <TrueBrain> I like you too can write a lot of text :D 17:18:11 <andythenorth> so we distribute binaries via bananas? o_O 17:18:19 <TrueBrain> that is the next step 17:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> something in me says you shouldn't offer binary code from external sources 17:18:39 <andythenorth> if we're doing ponies, can I distribute unreleased grfs via bananas? 17:18:50 <frosch123> both is on the list 17:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a disaster waiting to happen 17:18:57 <__ln__> *both are 17:19:13 <frosch123> oh, and there won't be a spell checker role 17:19:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause how else can I get a coin miner? :P 17:19:21 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I think it is a sensible step, so yeah 17:19:30 <TrueBrain> frosch123: honestly, I initial read it that you can offer grfs that only work in patchpacks :) 17:19:38 <TrueBrain> but this makes a lot more sense tbh :) 17:20:20 <TrueBrain> I emailed AWS again with my request for sponsor .. this time to yet another address 17:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> also, only way i can see bananas offering platform-independent "binary mods" will be if we port the game to mono/.net or java 17:21:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: also gives some room to fix mirroring a bit better .. currently the mixing of 2 sources is a bit iffy 17:21:32 <Alberth> lots of stuff runs at the jvm Eddi :p 17:22:20 <LordAro> some sort of central download service sounds reasonable, but i'm pretty sure it shouldn't be integrated with "bananas" 17:22:29 <LordAro> the code for it would have to be almost entirely separate anyway 17:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> also, the game should be better split into a "core" and a "gameplay" module, so patchpacks effectively only have to replace the gameplay section, and the core is basically just reduced to a launcher 17:22:57 <TrueBrain> I think you mistake what BaNaNaS is LordAro :) 17:23:47 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is, by every definition, a download service; it just has some meta data :) 17:23:59 <TrueBrain> and all custom 17:24:40 <TrueBrain> @calc 4 / 1053 17:24:40 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.00379867046534 17:24:48 *** LUL has joined #openttd 17:24:51 <TrueBrain> lol .. 99.7% is downloaded over http :) 17:25:05 <TrueBrain> frosch123: mostly I am really happy with NewGRF presets 17:25:36 <TrueBrain> I remember I was bitching about that years ago :P 17:25:56 <frosch123> ottd also downloads via http 17:26:07 <LordAro> https://hackmd.io/IwUvFkoFTR6kuxZAdlLr-w CONTRIBUTING.md 17:26:12 <LordAro> andythenorth: TrueBrain: ^ 17:27:06 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I already did my 2 cents :) 17:27:33 <LordAro> well you can keep doing it :p 17:27:42 <LordAro> and so can everyone else 17:27:46 <andythenorth> thanks 17:30:20 *** Brainzman has quit IRC 17:30:34 *** LUL has quit IRC 17:32:29 <TrueBrain> I just tried to see how much OpenTTD would cost if we run it on AWS .. it tells me 1100 dollar per month .. 17:32:31 <TrueBrain> eeeuuuuhhhhh 17:33:25 <TrueBrain> storage is only 10 dollar a month 17:35:55 *** Brainzman has joined #openttd 17:37:19 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it's more like "core" and "launcher" then, hardly any patchpack is limited to just "gameplay" 17:39:17 <andythenorth> AWS scales up fast 17:39:28 <andythenorth> it's ok if you only use spot instances 17:39:33 <TrueBrain> they cost 25 euro per 1mbit/s 17:39:36 <andythenorth> then costs do some kind of hockey stick curve 17:39:38 <TrueBrain> that is a price I havent seen in a long time :) 17:39:44 <TrueBrain> I understand where the price comes from .. but damn 17:39:51 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD uses 10+ mbit/s 24/7 .. 17:39:53 <andythenorth> :P 17:40:09 <TrueBrain> well, this is only the cost of pushing the bytes to our players :) 17:41:41 <TrueBrain> pushing 4 TB doesnt sound like a lot, but for a CDN it clearly is not cheap :) 17:41:52 <TrueBrain> so happy with the mirrors we have :) 17:46:32 <LordAro> ooi, when was the last time someone used ICC to compile OTTD? 17:46:43 <TrueBrain> when was it you tried that last? 17:46:52 <LordAro> well i've never tried it 17:46:59 <TrueBrain> so there you go 17:47:13 <LordAro> don't you have to pay lots of money for ICC? 17:47:41 <TrueBrain> is ICC still a thing? 17:48:24 <LordAro> ICC 18 appears to largely support C++17 17:50:07 <LordAro> oh no, apparently you can get it free for OSS purposes 17:50:15 <TrueBrain> there you go :) 17:50:29 <TrueBrain> they also only do that for Linux :P 17:51:05 <TrueBrain> you do need to register :) 17:52:10 <TrueBrain> invalid password format 17:52:13 <TrueBrain> without telling what the format is 17:52:15 <TrueBrain> SMART 17:52:25 <TrueBrain> at least one special character 17:52:27 <TrueBrain> REALLY? 17:52:47 <TrueBrain> no more than 15 17:52:49 <TrueBrain> REALLY?! 17:52:59 <LordAro> heh 17:53:03 <TrueBrain> the restriction of 15 is ... because you are not hashing it?! 17:53:32 <LordAro> VARCHAR(15) 17:53:38 <TrueBrain> for a hash?! 17:53:49 <TrueBrain> I always worry about such restrictions .. seems they dont know what they are doing 17:54:32 <TrueBrain> no matter what I do, the password format is invalid 17:54:34 <TrueBrain> ugh 17:54:57 <LordAro> well, i've registered 17:54:58 <LordAro> for some reason 17:55:03 <TrueBrain> 14 characters! 17:55:09 <TrueBrain> not 15 .. 14! 17:55:10 <TrueBrain> ffs 17:55:29 <LordAro> @calc 14*13*12*11*10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1 17:55:29 <DorpsGek> LordAro: 87178291200 17:55:29 <TrueBrain> 2 business days .. right 17:57:12 <TrueBrain> "This is to inform you that ,073.92 has been deposited into your bank account this morning." 17:57:14 <TrueBrain> BYYEEZZZZ 18:03:04 <peter1138> Hmm, we're up to 21 forks now. Nearly half-way to what the old repo had. 18:04:40 <TrueBrain> GitHub just replied; we were not the only one with this issue, and they have no clue yet what is causing it 18:06:02 <TrueBrain> but it seems to me at least what didnt work friday, works fine now, so meh :) 18:06:08 <TrueBrain> having a workaround is half the work :) 18:08:25 <_dp_> there is a special place in hell for people who do restrictions on passwords 18:08:58 <TrueBrain> Wolf01 had a nice link about TMobile Austria and their idea of security 18:09:04 <TrueBrain> there are worse ways of doing it 18:09:10 <TrueBrain> (they could see the first 4 letters of your password) 18:09:11 * _dp_ sick tired of constantly using password restore on every stupid site 18:11:16 <peter1138> Well, some restrictions are necessary. 18:11:33 <TrueBrain> at neast N is very much required, yes :) 18:12:14 <TrueBrain> neast, yes, neast 18:12:15 <TrueBrain> ffs 18:12:54 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 18:15:17 <_dp_> I hate sites that have N > 6 since it's more than my garbage password has :p 18:15:50 * peter1138 wonders if _dp_ needs introducing to password managers. 18:16:10 <_dp_> and many sites don't deserve any better password :p 18:17:02 <_dp_> I don't rly like password managers, they are a unsafe for anything that matters and an extra hassle for anything that doesn't 18:18:16 <peter1138> Unsafe. Riiiight. 18:18:41 <TrueBrain> this should be interesting: why do you think they are unsafe? :) 18:19:59 <frosch123> there are certainly some that are unsafe :) 18:21:01 *** Thedarkb-X40 has quit IRC 18:21:18 <_dp_> coz they still store passwords in some way or other 18:21:21 *** Thedarkb-X40 has joined #openttd 18:21:32 <TrueBrain> and you think you cannot store passwords in a safe matter? 18:22:04 <TrueBrain> I can give you my password manager database, and not even with a milion dollars you will get any passwords out of it 18:22:12 <andythenorth> maybe with m 18:22:20 <andythenorth> how many GPUs can I buy? 18:22:21 <TrueBrain> so I am not sure if you base your conclusion on the right facts :) 18:22:24 <andythenorth> they're not safe 18:22:28 <TrueBrain> no GPU in the world would help you :) 18:22:34 <andythenorth> I doubt it 18:22:37 <andythenorth> but it's relative risk 18:22:40 <TrueBrain> for brute forcing you need to know what you are looking for :) 18:22:49 <TrueBrain> finding data in a binary blob is difficult :) 18:22:50 <andythenorth> is it safer than post-it on your screen? 18:23:06 <Thedarkb-X40> Turns out ctrl+R inverts text on HexChat. 18:23:09 <andythenorth> is it safer than 'Dropbox/my_stuff/passwords.txt' 18:23:17 <TrueBrain> but given, if you know some of the data in it, you can brute force it :) 18:23:40 <andythenorth> is it safer than using things like 'password1' 18:23:51 <_dp_> TrueBrain, what is it encrypted with, master password? 18:24:06 <TrueBrain> it has a master password yes; but the file itself is AES encrypted 18:24:59 <_dp_> TrueBrain, then you only have one master password for everything instead of multiple passwords 18:25:14 <TrueBrain> yup; I only have to remember one complex password :) 18:25:25 <TrueBrain> but you said that password manager were UNSAFE 18:25:37 <TrueBrain> about which I wonder how you got to that conclusion 18:25:43 <_dp_> TrueBrain, also what happens if you loose your db? I know, backups, but what if you need a password when you cant access your db? 18:26:04 <TrueBrain> so you now switched to the usability and social aspect 18:26:12 <TrueBrain> which is fine; but it has nothing to do with the password manager being unsafe 18:26:29 <TrueBrain> but my phone is a fine place to carry such information with me 18:26:34 <TrueBrain> always there, never lost 18:26:34 <_dp_> TrueBrain, ok, safety, what happens if your master password gots keylogged? 18:26:48 <TrueBrain> if my machine is keylogged, my masterpassword is the least of my worries :) 18:27:19 <andythenorth> srsly 18:27:19 <_dp_> TrueBrain, if you machine is safe from keyloggers you can as well do passwords.txt :p 18:27:30 <TrueBrain> huh? That is a serious weird jump there 18:27:35 *** Alberth has left #openttd 18:27:45 <TrueBrain> I cannot even begin to tell you why those two have nothing in common ... :o 18:28:13 <TrueBrain> and just to be clear, I have no issues with you doing your passwords your way; just don't be illinformed thinking password managers are unsafe 18:28:17 <LordAro> well if you switch keyloggers with "anyone else ever looking at anything on your computer" 18:28:32 <TrueBrain> than NOTHING MATTERS :D 18:28:36 <andythenorth> repeat after andythenorth: "infosec is a triangle, balancing three kinds of risk" 18:28:46 <TrueBrain> yup 18:28:55 <andythenorth> well all the computers are owned anyway 18:29:01 <andythenorth> as chips are made overseas 18:29:05 <andythenorth> stands to reason eh? 18:29:13 <TrueBrain> not all chips :) 18:29:16 <_dp_> TrueBrain, well, I can agree they are somewhat safe if that makes you happy :p 18:29:28 <_dp_> Still like my way more 18:29:45 <LordAro> can't hack brains 18:29:47 <LordAro> yet 18:29:47 <TrueBrain> and that is fine :) Just understand how keymanager store their database is more secure than most websites are :D 18:29:57 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I was once asked to verify that we had full chain of custody on hosting hardware, all way from production source 18:30:10 <andythenorth> for infosec part of procurement 18:30:23 <andythenorth> including all sub-assemblies and components 18:30:32 <andythenorth> it was a pass/fail thing, not a risk score 18:30:34 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 18:31:28 <TrueBrain> but, just for shit and giggles: https://www.fox-it.com/en/insights/blogs/blog/tempest-attacks-aes/; in case you think keyloggers are the issue :D 18:32:28 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: with the GDPR coming, we have been part of risk-assesement of all systems in use .. I imagine your answer was as red :) 18:32:51 <andythenorth> we are not bad 18:33:11 <andythenorth> we have what we consider legacy systems, but they aren't legacy by enterprise standards 18:33:20 <andythenorth> and we designed with privacy principles in mind from start 18:33:35 *** Gja has joined #openttd 18:34:11 <LordAro> michi_cc: what was the issue with the RNG? 18:34:12 <TrueBrain> yeah .. the company itself rarely is the issue :) 18:34:14 <andythenorth> there are a few things where e.g. right to be forgotten clashes with legal oblifation of customers to be able to defend a court case 18:34:21 <TrueBrain> more the subparts etc 18:34:30 <andythenorth> but mostly we are fine, and we are data processor not owner 18:34:36 <andythenorth> so it's not too bad 18:34:45 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: no, that is pretty clear and not an issue; if you can show why you needed to store the data, it is fine :) 18:34:46 <andythenorth> cookie law was a much bigger drama for us 18:35:15 <TrueBrain> part of the company I work for, does fraud detection; and indeed, it is only a data processor. So it is easy for us. But I have seen evaluations of other companies .. owh booooyyyyyyyyy :D 18:35:43 <TrueBrain> "right to be forgotten" for a fraud system is a bit silly, we found out :D 18:35:56 <andythenorth> right 18:36:12 <TrueBrain> "Yes, I just broke in your system, but now I would like you to remove my information" :D 18:36:13 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 18:36:49 <michi_cc> LordAro: Off-by-one in SmallVector 18:37:45 <TrueBrain> never really had to deal with cookie law .. my old boss never wanted to hear about it 18:37:47 <TrueBrain> :P 18:37:48 <andythenorth> I wish I crashed ottd less 18:39:00 <TrueBrain> and I wish I could find a powercord I have been looking for the last week 18:40:13 <andythenorth> @seen supermop 18:40:13 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: supermop was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 4 hours, 28 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <supermop> should look good out of the box 18:40:33 <TrueBrain> I hope you werent talking about cats :D 18:40:37 <_dp_> Even if someone sees me typing my password it would still be quite hard for him to repeat :p 18:41:05 <_dp_> I type fast, have custom layout and never give my keyboard to anyone :p 18:41:47 <TrueBrain> the URL I linked above, shows you dont need to see someone typing .. you can just monitor the data from a distance :P 18:42:07 <TrueBrain> owh, and screens .... SCREENS .. they emit so much more data .. 18:42:14 <TrueBrain> if that type of security is your worry .. :D 18:42:20 <andythenorth> listening through windows 18:42:38 <andythenorth> OR EVEN READING YOUR MIND 18:42:42 <andythenorth> get a hat 18:42:45 <TrueBrain> tempest attacks on your brain :D 18:42:50 <TrueBrain> I will ask tomorrow if they tried that :) 18:44:00 <andythenorth> or you can just drive-by me with a fake flash player update and a password prompt 18:44:03 <andythenorth> remarkably common 18:44:16 <_dp_> I'm mostly concerned about usual stuff like cameras, wifis, viruses 18:44:30 <_dp_> physical attacks are a bit too exotic to worry about 18:44:49 <andythenorth> have you glued your USB ports closed? 18:45:15 <TrueBrain> physical attacks exotic? 18:45:23 <TrueBrain> isnt that the #1 way they get in companies? 18:45:44 <andythenorth> I heard it was device loss + malicious employees top causes 18:45:45 <TrueBrain> is what I would do .. fake AP, remote microphone .. just walking in and plugging in a device .. 18:46:10 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: okay, so #2 :P 18:46:27 <TrueBrain> I am much less worried about attacks over the internet tbh :D 18:46:55 <_dp_> I'm a freelancer and work from home, so my usb ports are safe enough :p 18:46:56 <TrueBrain> but yeah .. something about a balance between all factors :) 18:47:16 <andythenorth> _dp_: but you plug in USB devices? 18:47:21 <TrueBrain> still havent found a powercord ... if it is in none of these boxes ... did I forget to move a box or something .... 18:47:40 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: the powercord probably has malware in anyway 18:47:44 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: owh, those USB disks which also are a wifi, keyboard and mouse :D 18:47:57 <TrueBrain> that was a briliant concept :) 18:47:58 *** Arveen has joined #openttd 18:48:12 <andythenorth> I was thinking about Bad USB and friends 18:48:14 <TrueBrain> you plugin the USB thinking it only has storage .. and when you are away, they take over your machine :D 18:48:29 <andythenorth> you know the 'sealed' blister packaging USB sticks come int? 18:48:40 <_dp_> andythenorth, yes, but they are my devices 18:48:50 <andythenorth> there's apparently a whole mini-industry of opening those packs and installing malware 18:48:56 <andythenorth> [I have no sources] 18:49:05 <andythenorth> or just doing at source in the factory 18:49:39 <andythenorth> or leaving 'lost' USB sticks in car parks and cafes 18:49:45 <TrueBrain> if you want to keep your shit safe, you dont connect it to the internet :P 18:49:45 <andythenorth> 'hey lucky me, a free USB stick' 18:49:59 <andythenorth> USB-C adds fun 18:50:16 <andythenorth> my powercord now has DMA, including reading the encryption keys for my disks 18:50:23 <andythenorth> 'great feature' 18:50:37 <TrueBrain> but yes, social attacks are great :) Humans are stupid :) 18:50:52 <andythenorth> and everyone has password1 anyway 18:50:59 <andythenorth> my burglar alarm used to be 1234 18:51:15 <andythenorth> it isn't any more, obvs :P 18:51:17 <TrueBrain> now it is 6789? :D 18:51:33 <andythenorth> it contains numbers 18:51:41 <andythenorth> is all 18:51:51 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 18:54:57 *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd 18:55:46 <andythenorth> where is mop :P 18:55:59 <andythenorth> I need someone who cares about 1950s-1990s British pax coaches 18:56:08 <andythenorth> and knows about colours and stuff 19:01:03 <FLHerne> I do ;-) 19:10:09 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8962/horse_pax.png 19:10:44 <V453000> such horse 19:10:58 <andythenorth> I need coaches for 1930 and 1960 19:11:05 <andythenorth> I think 89 is better for 1930 19:11:06 <V453000> I like the picture :) 19:11:13 <andythenorth> and I should improve 90 for 1960 19:11:25 <andythenorth> I have a height issue going on too :P 19:13:11 <frosch123> V453000: back in europe? 19:15:07 <frosch123> andythenorth: 1950-1990 coaches should look like https://dty8d8u6se0an.cloudfront.net/media/image/thumbnail/DDR-Tapete4_1440x1100.jpg 19:15:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: :P 19:15:33 <andythenorth> 32bpp, 256 browns 19:23:12 <andythenorth> basically, give or take realism... 19:23:18 <andythenorth> this for 1960? http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mark2coach/h699c5980#h699c5980 19:23:23 <andythenorth> or this? http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mark2coach/ha8379216#ha8379216 19:25:07 <frosch123> round edges, and windows that can be opened 19:26:14 <frosch123> http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mark2coach/h699c5980#h6ebea973 <- too old? 19:26:24 <andythenorth> no 19:26:48 <andythenorth> the challenge is how many pixels I get for windows 19:26:53 <andythenorth> maybe I should 2x it all :) 19:27:06 <andythenorth> fortunately realism is secondary here 19:28:45 <andythenorth> realism says do this, which is very untidy :) http://www.traintesting.com/images/class_86_leaving_Crewe_1980.jpg 19:29:34 <peter1138> DO IT. 19:29:56 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 19:30:45 <V453000> frosch123: yeah 19:30:49 <V453000> not leaving it for a while now :P 19:32:16 <andythenorth> peter1138: you actually can do it in Horse if you mix up wagon generations :P 19:33:09 <andythenorth> I have covered people who want this https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a0/5e/63/a05e634ed9c169593d9f51867e1c14c9.jpg 19:33:20 <andythenorth> as well as people like me who want a neat block train on integer lengths :P 19:41:40 <andythenorth> train 89 windows look nice, but camera angle is now wrong eh? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8963/horse_pax_2.png 19:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> there isn't really a defined angle 19:43:13 <andythenorth> I've got 138 variants of these to draw, so I need to get this right before I go too far :) 19:43:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think it's the roofline that looks wrong, MkII/III have domed ends that look very distinctive compared to older stock 19:43:51 <andythenorth> my concern is the proportion of window to body depth 19:44:08 <andythenorth> and with a higher camera, you would notice proportionally more of the roof curve 19:44:13 <TrueBrain> LordAro: but does this now work with ccache and llvm? 19:44:21 <andythenorth> I also think my starting sprite is lit wrong at the tumblehome 19:44:31 <LordAro> TrueBrain: should do 19:44:51 <LordAro> resolves symlinks to check names only, everything else goes through the original symlink 19:44:57 <LordAro> which ccache uses to fake a compiler 19:45:14 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That one depends if you're looking at early Mk2s (with small sliding windows above the main ones) or Mk2d and later (air-con, so no vent windows) 19:45:38 <TrueBrain> LordAro: if I have ccache and llvm, the CC would be /usr/lib/ccache/clang, but the realpath will be /usr/bin/ccache 19:45:46 <TrueBrain> in result, it breaks :( 19:46:31 <LordAro> hrm. 19:46:33 <LordAro> yes 19:46:44 <TrueBrain> basically, the realpath trick doesnt work :( 19:47:20 <LordAro> if i knew what the format of icc --version was, i could probably make it work 19:47:27 <andythenorth> FLHerne: they could be mk2s, mk3s, pullmans, it doesn't really matter 19:47:40 <andythenorth> I think for 1960 they should flip to smaller windows though 19:47:42 <TrueBrain> LordAro: in a few days we should have access :) 19:48:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Well, they do look quite different https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Blue_grey_Mk2_set_at_Dereham.jpg 19:48:49 <andythenorth> yeah 19:48:53 <FLHerne> Air-con stock before 1970-odd would look odd 19:49:01 <andythenorth> I assumed the windowline moved down, but it actually moved up 19:49:11 <andythenorth> which is why I tried the train 89 style 19:49:15 <FLHerne> It did both, I think :P 19:49:22 <andythenorth> I think it distorts the angle though 19:50:05 <FLHerne> Early Mk2s are from ~1966, aircon ones not until 1972 or something 19:51:15 *** Maarten has quit IRC 19:51:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: FWIW, in your Crewe pic the set isn't actually that random ;-) 19:51:57 <andythenorth> mk1 BG, mk3, mk2f, mk2b 19:52:08 <FLHerne> Sure 19:52:09 <andythenorth> not random, but 4 types 19:52:25 *** Maarten has joined #openttd 19:52:35 <FLHerne> But that's because there were never any Mk2 catering vehicles or full-brakes 19:53:00 <andythenorth> there are in horse :) 19:53:04 <FLHerne> Well, the odd Mk3 FO is a bit random 19:53:07 <andythenorth> as much as anything in horse is a real type 19:53:47 <andythenorth> for some reason horse – sprites are 2 shades darker than Hog 19:53:54 <andythenorth> that should be...adjusted :P 19:54:00 <andythenorth> it limits the highlights 19:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so from what i gathered looking at the pictures you posted, there's two wagon types, one with smaller windows and the other with larger windows. you're trying to draw the one with the smaller windows? 19:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think there's too few pixels to accurately depict the differences in windows 19:57:09 <andythenorth> I agree 19:57:35 <andythenorth> but the difference can be used between generations 19:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it could work in x2 19:58:34 <peter1138> draw in x4! 19:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you could draw it in x2 or x4 and try downscaling it with some good AA 19:58:47 <peter1138> it's only 4x the number of pixels! (yes, I know) 19:59:31 *** agentw4b has quit IRC 20:01:00 <LordAro> TrueBrain: doesn't even work on my system currently, as clang is -> clang-6.0 20:01:30 <TrueBrain> awh 20:01:37 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 20:01:49 *** Gja has quit IRC 20:02:29 <peter1138> andythenorth, why is "electrified road" an "original road type"? 20:02:46 <peter1138> andythenorth, and non-electrified tram, for that matter. 20:03:08 <andythenorth> just because frosch specified that 20:03:10 <andythenorth> iirc 20:03:12 *** synchris has quit IRC 20:03:20 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#Introduction 20:04:15 <peter1138> Hmm. I dislike providing defaults beyond what was originally there, if newgrf can provide them. 20:05:30 <andythenorth> it's basically catenary-or-not 20:05:30 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I found another bug in my Jenkinsfile .. I guess we both started a change which only results into more issues than we tried to solve :D 20:05:59 <andythenorth> I am on the fence about it, but I imagine it had a rationale 20:06:19 <LordAro> TrueBrain: eh, they're expected with CI stuff though :p 20:07:09 <TrueBrain> as with build systems :) 20:08:11 <TrueBrain> now battling bash an quotes ...... 20:08:21 *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC 20:08:28 <TrueBrain> which is another hilarious issue 20:08:46 <LordAro> oh no 20:09:18 <TrueBrain> I am trying to make a variable in which 2 parameters for an application are 20:09:25 <TrueBrain> but that seems impossible 20:09:40 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:09:55 <peter1138> andythenorth, i know it's "just road types" 20:10:14 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i tried to trick godbolt into giving me the icc --version output, but it wouldn't let me :( 20:10:29 <TrueBrain> ghehe 20:11:09 <andythenorth> peter1138: if they need dropped for logical reasons, it makes no difference to players / authors 20:11:16 <TrueBrain> BEHOLD! A proper README.md :D 20:12:34 <peter1138> well, unless authors come to expect it. 20:12:55 <peter1138> electrified road is a really weird name too :p 20:13:11 <peter1138> scalextric 20:14:02 <andythenorth> one way of looking at is that it just completes the 2x2 matrix 20:14:11 <andythenorth> otherwise it's weird that tram defaults to catenary 20:14:14 <andythenorth> for historical reasons 20:14:28 <andythenorth> or that could just be tidy mind problem 20:14:39 <TrueBrain> I so hate shell scripts ... docker sees something else than echo shows ... just because spaces are handled differently ... ugh 20:15:39 <TrueBrain> tnx glx :) 20:16:04 <glx> I don't know if we can self approve 20:16:10 <TrueBrain> we cannot :) 20:16:23 <TrueBrain> something that can be enabled, but .. it rarely results in a good quality :) 20:16:34 <glx> seems sane to not self approve 20:17:01 <LordAro> > ln -s /usr/bin/gcc notclang 20:17:06 <LordAro> > ./notclang --version 20:17:06 <LordAro> notclang (GCC) 7.3.1 20180312 20:17:56 *** Gja has joined #openttd 20:21:48 <TrueBrain> dont you just love it :) 20:22:08 <LordAro> helpfully, clang does not use argv[0] 20:22:14 <LordAro> no idea about icc, of course 20:26:27 <TrueBrain> check how cmake does it :) 20:26:38 <LordAro> i'd rather not :p 20:26:56 <TrueBrain> mostly pretty readable tbh 20:27:00 <TrueBrain> I tihnk it compiles a small c file 20:27:11 <TrueBrain> and checks the resulting binary for something 20:28:41 <LordAro> https://gitlab.kitware.com/cmake/cmake/blob/master/Modules/CMakeDetermineCCompiler.cmake seems so 20:28:50 <LordAro> why is cmake itself so unreadable :( 20:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if i said anything previously about the matter, but i would just provide one roadtype called ROAD and one tramtype called TRAM as default 20:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i find ELRL confusing as it overlaps with rail 20:30:23 <glx> LordAro: equivalent to autoconf for me :) 20:30:29 <TrueBrain> seriously, why did they make shell parameters impossible 20:30:47 <TrueBrain> I just want to pass some docker build commands ... 20:35:18 <TrueBrain> okay, after enough "" it seems to work ...... 20:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> if escaping is not working, you're not using enough of it :p 20:36:18 <TrueBrain> its so insane 20:36:41 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:37:53 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I just leave you this about feature requests btw :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S90kfeD1P6I 20:38:05 <andythenorth> sad times, I link to someone's pirated copy of my own video 20:39:20 <TrueBrain> that is sad 20:40:10 <TrueBrain> today closed the first ticket because it contained nothing .. hope that it is not constantly like that :D 20:41:19 <andythenorth> :| 20:42:10 <TrueBrain> To: 'info@mail.com' 20:42:12 <TrueBrain> Subject: RE: 20:42:14 <TrueBrain> Need to talk to you privately. Reply for more details. 20:42:15 <TrueBrain> best 20:42:17 <TrueBrain> email 20:42:18 <TrueBrain> evah 20:45:30 <TrueBrain> bad LordAro! Sneaking shit in ... pfft :D 20:46:24 <TrueBrain> LordAro: and while you are fixing that, please rebase :D 20:46:25 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 20:46:37 <TrueBrain> (after that, rebasing is no lnger a real requirement .. but the fix is after your parent :D) 20:47:05 <LordAro> TrueBrain: awh, you noticed :p 20:47:14 <TrueBrain> you are surprised I really do review? :P 20:47:21 <TrueBrain> the problem with accepting vim statements 20:47:24 <TrueBrain> that next commit will be nano 20:47:25 <LordAro> but vim keeps thinking the file is cobol 20:47:26 <TrueBrain> followed by joe 20:47:31 <TrueBrain> and than emacs 20:47:43 <TrueBrain> I mean .. it really never stops 20:47:47 <andythenorth> has anyone finished CONTRIBUTING.md yet? 20:47:52 <TrueBrain> you? 20:48:03 <andythenorth> I have to redraw 36 pax coach roofs 20:48:10 <andythenorth> and 60 mail coach roofs 20:48:11 <TrueBrain> priorties andythenorth :) 20:48:18 <TrueBrain> I too have better things to do :P 20:48:26 <andythenorth> on the other hand, it's one sprite and then PIL :P 20:48:44 <TrueBrain> how do I open .xip files .. freaking OSX .. 20:49:05 <andythenorth> wtf is a .xip 20:49:27 <TrueBrain> something you have on OSX 20:49:38 <andythenorth> apparently 20:49:45 <andythenorth> zip with a signature 20:49:48 <andythenorth> want me to open it? 20:50:03 <andythenorth> it's xar containing gzip allegedly 20:50:09 <TrueBrain> I was trying to extract SDKs 20:50:32 <TrueBrain> glx: can you test PR 6727 ? :) 20:50:42 <andythenorth> oh some shit about xip can only be opened by Apple https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/242948/what-is-the-format-of-a-xip-file 20:51:07 <TrueBrain> yeah ... I might ask you after all to get me 10.12 and 10.13 SDKs :) 20:51:47 <TrueBrain> but osxcross doesnt tell if it works 20:51:52 <TrueBrain> so that always makes it a bit harder to ask :) 20:52:12 <V453000> Uhm, so I released latest PURR like 4 months ago and today a guy reported to me that 8bpp version is basically borked AF :D 20:52:20 <V453000> such development, much fast 20:52:50 <andythenorth> lol 20:53:42 <V453000> how iz andythenorth ? 20:54:06 <peter1138> b0rked! 20:55:31 <peter1138> Should I buy a new bike? 20:55:48 <V453000> You probably already know the answer :P 20:57:32 *** Brainzman has quit IRC 20:58:39 <peter1138> I have a suspicion. 20:59:31 <glx> TrueBrain: I let you approve :) 21:00:03 <TrueBrain> tnx glx! 21:00:18 <glx> as you were the one requesting changes 21:01:19 <glx> btw LordAro, please stop touching config.lib it forces to rebuild everything ;) 21:04:05 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:04:33 <TrueBrain> yippie, extracting Mac files on Linux 21:04:38 <TrueBrain> I love how so many people wrote tools to do that :D 21:05:05 <glx> I remember using 7zip to open .dmg on windows 21:05:18 <TrueBrain> yeah .... they changed shit again 21:05:21 <TrueBrain> they now use 'zip' 21:05:25 <TrueBrain> but .. WITH A TWIST 21:06:09 <glx> I guess 7zip will be able to do it one day 21:06:43 <LordAro> glx: sorry :> 21:06:50 <glx> np :) 21:07:16 <glx> we all hate when everything needs to be rebuilt 21:07:27 <TrueBrain> merged 21:07:44 <LordAro> i have to do it semi-regularly at work due to a dodgy build system 21:07:55 <LordAro> and that takes 30 minutes to rebuild with 8 cores 21:08:24 <TrueBrain> first thing I try to do in new projets .. fix the fucking build system 21:08:33 <andythenorth> peter1138: it's probably time 21:08:42 <peter1138> For bed, yes. 21:08:51 <andythenorth> and bikes 21:08:55 <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh, it used to take 50 minutes 21:08:57 <LordAro> :p 21:09:24 <TrueBrain> okay .. I now see the 10.13 SDK 21:09:29 <andythenorth> \o/ 21:09:30 <TrueBrain> not the 10.12 yet, but that will be similar, I guess 21:09:35 <TrueBrain> need to find last XCode to support 10.12 21:09:40 <TrueBrain> but that isnt the biggest issue :) 21:09:54 <andythenorth> ok as you are wading through OS X shit I will do some more CONTRIBUTING :P 21:09:57 <TrueBrain> I do have to extract it on a different volume .... having 0777 for all files is dodgy :D 21:10:13 <TrueBrain> curious if osxcross works for 10.12 and 10.13 21:10:23 <TrueBrain> as we are dropping older targets left and right, I think I am only going to support 64bit 21:10:36 <TrueBrain> I doubt 1.9 will work on Win98 :P 21:11:01 <glx> I could try a no unicode build 21:11:20 <TrueBrain> as I think we will have x14 shit before I can say LOOKATTHIS 21:11:29 <TrueBrain> maybe mingw can still target win98 21:11:30 <glx> I should have a win98 VM somewhere 21:11:31 <TrueBrain> we will see :) 21:11:35 <TrueBrain> but for OSX I am not going to try :) 21:11:53 <TrueBrain> andythenorth said: n and n-1 21:11:55 <TrueBrain> so .. yeah :P 21:12:27 <andythenorth> I did 21:12:35 <TrueBrain> what is difficult about OSX, that their XCode contains 1 or 2 SDKs ... which supports 1 or more versions 21:12:38 <LordAro> at what point is it acceptable to say "we'll accept PRs for this platform, but we're not supporting it ourselves" ? 21:12:54 <TrueBrain> we always accepted patches for platforms without really supporting them 21:13:00 <TrueBrain> as long as they are not a maintainers nightmare 21:13:05 <TrueBrain> I mean, there is support for PSP 21:13:09 <TrueBrain> BeOS used to work 21:13:12 <TrueBrain> stuff like that 21:13:16 <TrueBrain> WinCE ... 21:13:23 <glx> hmm I have a win98 VM but its for virtual PC and I no longer have it 21:13:24 <TrueBrain> but all those mobile patches 21:13:34 <TrueBrain> those are not something you want in core OpenTTD 21:13:57 <TrueBrain> they need to do a lot of tricks to make it somewhat playable on your mobile 21:14:05 <TrueBrain> and I do not see why people want to ... at all 21:14:10 <TrueBrain> I think that is typical something for a patchpack 21:14:24 <LordAro> i'm not convinced, i think a mobile (tablet) version could work really well 21:14:25 <TrueBrain> so LordAro, it is not a matter of what we support or not .. more if the PR is in line with our current vision :) 21:14:31 <TrueBrain> I havent seen it 21:14:57 <TrueBrain> but for that we are Open Source .. people can surprise me :) 21:15:20 <TrueBrain> also maybe a better addition to what I said: OpenTTD might compile fine for OSX 10.6 21:15:30 <TrueBrain> but .. our releases we build for 10.12 and 10.13 21:15:39 <TrueBrain> yet we do not officially support OSX 21:15:42 <TrueBrain> :D 21:16:07 <TrueBrain> (its not black, its not white! Just a LOT OF GREY) 21:16:52 <LordAro> which is the oldest OSX that apple support? 21:17:20 <andythenorth> they don't have a published policy afaict 21:17:33 <TrueBrain> I am off to bed; night guys :D Nice going this week :) 21:17:34 <andythenorth> it's usually n-2, except for critical security updates 21:17:38 <andythenorth> bye TrueBrain 21:27:28 *** Gja has quit IRC 21:30:31 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 21:34:30 <Eddi|zuHause> wait, we support wince? 21:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i should install this on one of my machines :p 21:35:31 <Eddi|zuHause> they run WEC7 on an ARMv7 processor with about 1GHz 21:36:21 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 21:39:06 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 21:48:28 <glx> I think it used to work on wince, but it's probably broken now 22:23:53 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:37:14 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:12:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:20:26 *** Smedles_ has quit IRC 23:53:24 *** Smedles has joined #openttd