Log for #openttd on 18th May 2018:
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00:07:24  <peter1138> Hmm
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06:36:48  <peter1138> Hmm
06:44:14  <peter1138> Meh @ ships
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06:54:55  <peter1138> Hi
06:56:05  <andythenorth> pilo
06:56:31  * andythenorth needs to learn to type, quite badly
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08:03:38  <peter1138> Well
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08:21:51  <andythenorth> how do you apply a gist anyway/
08:21:59  <andythenorth> ?
08:22:18  <andythenorth> damn keyboard now working, there's a class action suit against fruit company now
08:22:23  <andythenorth> now / not /s
08:35:57  <peter1138> Copy and paste it?
08:36:38  <andythenorth>
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09:54:36  <Xaroth> o7
10:14:29  <peter1138> Has anyone ever got anywhere with clustering for pathfinding for ships?
10:18:24  <V453000> set max_ships 0
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10:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i think there were one or two patches, ages ago
10:33:15  <andythenorth> there's a ship separation path
10:33:21  <andythenorth> tries to keep them on separate tiles or something
10:50:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that's something completely different
10:53:04  <andythenorth> does peter mean caching paths?
10:53:12  <andythenorth> for performance?
10:53:23  <andythenorth> I though he had a patch for that :P
10:53:43  <Xaroth> Wait, he doesn't have a patch for that?
10:53:51  <andythenorth> :o
10:53:53  <Eddi|zuHause> "clustering" means "treat large bodies of water as one block"
10:54:09  <andythenorth> ? o_O
10:55:05  <Eddi|zuHause> large bodies of water have the problem that there are lots of paths through them which have equivalent lengths, making pathfinding very inefficient
10:55:22  <Eddi|zuHause> if you can reliably identify these blocks
10:55:35  <Eddi|zuHause> then you can reduce the complexity/search space of the pathfinder
10:55:44  <andythenorth> right
10:56:21  <andythenorth> how is a block bounded?
10:56:30  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody knows
10:56:37  <andythenorth> it's arbitrary how any connected body of water is sliced into blocks
10:56:43  <andythenorth> unless a heuristic is proposed :P
10:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly.
10:57:00  <andythenorth> human brain would want to reduce it to things that look like seas or lakes
10:57:09  <andythenorth> but the maths might not work that way
10:57:31  <peter1138> Yeah, that's why I'm asking :-)
10:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i would imagine making rectangles
10:57:32  * andythenorth wonders if there's a vector space for it
10:57:40  <peter1138> It's start with 16x16 chunks or something like that.
10:57:54  <Eddi|zuHause> smallest rectangle is one tile
10:57:57  <peter1138> But yeah, it doesn't exactly fit.
10:58:03  <peter1138> I have a patch to cache paths.
10:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and then you merge adjacent rectangles
10:58:09  <Eddi|zuHause> until you have nothing left to merge
10:58:15  <andythenorth> for every tile, there are vectors to every other tile
10:58:20  <andythenorth> some vectors will cluster
10:58:24  <peter1138> It actually works really well, until the landscape gets change.
10:58:26  <peter1138> +d
10:58:37  <andythenorth> vectors are probably computationally intense, and demanding on RAM
10:58:50  <andythenorth> we made a vector space for YouTube videos once :P
10:58:58  <peter1138> Save/load would be an issue of course.
10:59:44  <peter1138> I can solve some pathfinding cpu consumption issues simply by limiting the code to not bother pathfinding if the distance is greater than the existing max-order distance.
10:59:58  <peter1138> (That check is only there when adding orders, not when pathfinding.)
11:00:30  * andythenorth has randomly stupid ideas
11:00:39  <andythenorth> I mean you could do this
11:01:02  <peter1138> This leaves one (afaik) remaining issue: trying to pathfind to an unreachable destination which is within that limit is still very expensive.
11:01:23  <andythenorth> but we could also just make the game build navigation points (lighthouses) on a grid, and everybody has to route ships 'via flinborough lighthouse' or whatever
11:01:32  <andythenorth> replacing silly buoys
11:01:56  <andythenorth> divide the map into sectors somehow, of fixed size
11:02:40  * andythenorth back to GDPR fun
11:03:16  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a patch once that placed random buoys on the map and divided the water into regions that way
11:03:31  <peter1138> fixed-size sectors break when you have areas within a sector that are separate don't reach.
11:03:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so pathfinding across multiple regions would just go between buoys
11:04:00  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, interesting.
11:04:21  <andythenorth> having to place buoys is really annoying for some reason
11:04:29  <andythenorth> it's very hard to predict which routes will need them
11:04:32  <peter1138> But you have to know which automatic buoys are reachable, I suppose.
11:04:44  <peter1138> But that can be a much smaller search area.
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11:05:39  <peter1138> There's the "flood fill regions to determine reachability" but that requires additional storage and needs to be updates when the map is changed.
11:06:15  <peter1138> And that only 'solves' the unreachable case, not 'difficult' paths.
11:06:24  <Eddi|zuHause> might be this one
11:07:01  <peter1138> Region index, heh. There we go.
11:07:27  <peter1138> 64k regions.
11:07:42  <peter1138> That could be exceeded, I guess.
11:09:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could just cut out the smallest regions, and fall back to tile mode
11:24:55  <Eddi|zuHause> another attempt to cut down on ship pathfinding cost is to reduce the number of pathfinder calls by storing the found path (kinda like reservations), instead of rerunning the pathfinder on every tile
11:25:38  <Eddi|zuHause> on a first approximation, store in each ship "go in a straight line for X tiles"
11:26:15  <Eddi|zuHause> all tiles inbetween would skip the pathfinder call, and just choose the continuing trackbit
11:26:43  <peter1138> Yes, that works, I have a patch for it :p
11:27:07  <peter1138> Just has issues when landscape is changed currently.
11:27:15  <peter1138> And of course not multiplayer safe.
11:27:33  <peter1138> (I couldn't easily figure out how to save a std::stack :-))
11:29:07  <Eddi|zuHause> well, doesn't need a stack if you just store the first leg of the path
11:31:40  <peter1138> Also doesn't work for my current worst-case of unreachable destination.
11:32:02  <peter1138> Well, the pathfinder works on trackbits, not directions, so you basically need to store each tile as a step.
11:32:18  <andythenorth> anyone want an SRE job? o_O
11:32:29  * andythenorth is taking long shots :P
11:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, a "direction" is either a sequence of the same straight trackbit, or an alternating sequence of diagonal tackbits
11:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause> it should also be easy to adjust pathfinder penalties to try to minimize turns
11:37:16  <peter1138> Hah
11:38:28  <peter1138> Also wondering about making ships take turn pathfinding.
11:38:41  <peter1138> Cos setting 100 ships off at once causes mayhem.
11:39:06  <Eddi|zuHause> one-ship-per-tile would solve that?
11:39:16  <Eddi|zuHause> or, per trackbit
11:39:20  <Eddi|zuHause> or whatever
11:39:25  <peter1138> With a massive drawback.
11:40:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it would suffice to impose that limit on leaving a dock
11:40:20  <Eddi|zuHause> or shipyard
11:45:12  <andythenorth> hah
11:45:28  <andythenorth> forcing a delay on ships leaving dock/depot might be really interesting
11:45:41  <andythenorth> just enough to fix some ship problems without nerfing them totally
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11:46:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> state machines
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11:46:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i would never say that
11:46:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i would say
11:47:08  <Eddi|zuHause> *cough*state machines*cough*
11:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but that also has nothing to do with the topic discussed here
11:55:31  <peter1138> Yet!
11:57:26  <andythenorth> each tile is a state machine :P
11:57:36  <andythenorth> how about 'seas' that are state machines :P
12:00:01  <andythenorth> why can't Google find an image of the hexagonal columns that naturally form in boiling oil?
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12:22:32  <peter1138> Fuck money.
12:27:17  <andythenorth> lo Pikka
12:27:39  <andythenorth> peter1138: is that a koan of some kind?
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13:06:42  <Pikka> yowza
13:09:13  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: pathfinding through statemachines will be another crazy nightmare :p
13:11:08  <peter1138> :D
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14:13:58  * peter1138 grumbles at irc channels switching to gitter. Pain in the arse :(
14:14:14  <Pikka> grumble grumble
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14:15:34  <LANJesus> does gitter have an IRC gateway?
14:16:25  <peter1138> Doubt it
14:16:36  <peter1138> Hmm
14:16:43  <peter1138> Seems they do but you need to login and shit :S
14:19:49  <peter1138> I'll give it a go, thanks for pointing it out :p
14:25:35  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a gitter?
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14:29:43  <andythenorth> some new thing
14:29:58  <LANJesus> well yeah, i'd expect some kind of authentication for gitter
14:30:07  <LANJesus> they better support sasl ; )
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14:46:42  <peter1138> No need, SSL is better.
14:51:35  <LANJesus> i use CertFP/SASL when possible. no password needed
14:52:06  <LANJesus> authentication based on my SSL fingerprint
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15:08:13  <FLHerne> peter1138: I did wonder at one point why virtually all ship paths can't be cached
15:09:12  <FLHerne> Unlike the other ground vehicles, they don't collide or anything, so the best path between two tiles will never change unless someone landscapes the map
15:10:51  <FLHerne> And the actual number of docks/buoys/water-industries served is relatively low, so it would be perfectly feasible to simply cache the complete path for every pair
15:10:53  <Alberth> or until you implement ship collision avoiding like hackalittlebit did
15:11:25  <Xaroth> Ship collision would be neat
15:11:26  <FLHerne> (on first use, so you only store the pairs that are actually used, obv)
15:12:00  <Alberth> the killer is more in lost ships, I think
15:12:18  <Alberth> which by definition is not a known path :p
15:12:29  <Alberth> and it's tried every frame
15:12:40  <peter1138> Well, every new tile.
15:12:56  <Alberth> fair enough
15:13:02  <peter1138> I've "solved" the other cases, it's just the unreachable case which sucks CPU now.
15:13:45  <FLHerne> peter1138: Well, can't /that/ be cached until someone flips a water bit?
15:14:03  <FLHerne> If it was unreachable before, it'll stay unreachable until there's more water
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15:14:13  <peter1138> Yeah but where do you cache it?
15:15:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you just store a body-of-water-ID in the map?
15:15:56  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, that link you gave earlier might be useful.
15:16:16  <Alberth> switching to JPS would remove most of the open/closed list operations
15:16:17  <FLHerne> VF_PATHFINDER_LOST is already a thing, right?
15:16:20  <peter1138> Looks like a big patch though.
15:16:42  <peter1138> FLHerne, yeah, it's not a problem for 1 ship
15:16:48  <FLHerne> So my idea is that you have a global (well,per-map...) flag for whether someone poked a water bit this frame
15:16:56  <peter1138> But when you have 200 all trying to do it...
15:16:59  <FLHerne> Oh, I see the problem
15:17:11  <FLHerne> Meh, I'll carry on explaining first :P
15:17:20  <peter1138> They'll still all do the pathfinding and cause a freeze.
15:17:34  <peter1138> Maybe we should lower the node limit :-)
15:17:52  <peter1138> It's 10000 at the moment.
15:18:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but!! 16kx16k maps with ships going one trip around the map border?
15:18:27  <FLHerne> Have the build-water and flood operations set that bit
15:18:33  <Alberth> have a max number of ships doing pathfinding each round, others are queued
15:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> 5k ships, of course
15:18:52  <peter1138> I think the pathfinder could do with a max-distance check as well.
15:18:59  <FLHerne> Then when doing pathfinding, if (this ship is lost) and (water hasn't changed), skip
15:19:07  <FLHerne> Because it'll always fail
15:19:07  <peter1138> Alberth, yeah, I've considered that.
15:19:27  <Alberth> FLHerne: but it moved to a new tile, it may be findable now
15:19:47  <FLHerne> Alberth: Only with the distance limits, which are a stupid hack
15:20:13  <FLHerne> Hm, too harsh :P
15:20:15  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: sometimes ships are lost because of dead ends/90° turns disabled/whatever that is dependent on the ship position
15:20:44  <peter1138> If you want to remove the distance limits, you need a different path finder.
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15:21:16  <peter1138> Alberth, any idea how to add JPS? :)
15:21:20  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: And that's bloody annoying when ships get 'lost' in canal basins and rivers for three tiles until they change direction and sort themselves out
15:21:41  <FLHerne> The PF should know about reversing
15:21:42  <andythenorth> 'just' enable 90º turns
15:21:49  <andythenorth> it's a stupid feature anyway :)
15:22:18  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: imho the 90° thing is just pointless, and ships should be able to turn in-place
15:22:23  <peter1138> 90° turns should be allowed for ships.
15:22:38  <andythenorth> it's even realism :P
15:22:45  <FLHerne> The problem I saw was that ships don't pathfind every frame, so a single 'changed' flag would get missed
15:22:52  <FLHerne> There do seem to be other ones
15:23:10  <peter1138> Pathfinding every frame would make it worse
15:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have a clue who came up with the idea that 90° turns should apply to both trains AND ships
15:23:12  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Ok, that's a better idea
15:23:18  <Alberth> peter1138: JPS assumes center of tile as position, while we use center of edge, so jps assumes 8 directions, we have 6. That's the biggest adaption to make.
15:23:20  <andythenorth>
15:23:29  <Alberth> otherwise, jps is quite easy
15:24:25  <Alberth>
15:25:38  <Alberth> in the diagonal case, jps branches out both horizontally and vertically, while we probably would do only one direction
15:26:48  <Alberth> no idea how that article is related to artificial-intelligence :p
15:27:32  <Eddi|zuHause> pathfinding is a basic AI topic...
15:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> AI is not just neural networks :p
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15:55:20  <Alberth> hmm, they mangled the code layout :(
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16:23:14  <nielsm> okay maybe I should actually ask this... does anyone know if original TTD has any preferred timer frequencies for frame lengths or anything like that?
16:24:00  <nielsm> because in my DOS music decoding code I've just sort-of guessed that 6.5 ms gives a good approximation of the correct tempo, when I decode a "frame" of music on that interval
16:24:27  <nielsm> but there might be a more correct value hidden somewhere
16:29:37  <nielsm> hmm there is actually a magical number 148 as part of the tempo code in the music decoder, maybe that's the actual rate intended, since 148 hz = every 6.757 ms
16:31:58  <nielsm> (I don't see the "music frame rate" directly in the disassembly of the DOS music driver, since that gets called as an interrupt from the game, and the main game engine is responsible for the timing of that interrupt call)
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16:46:28  <nielsm> yeah 148 hz does seem to match the tempo of the windows version midi files perfectly, based on just a listening test
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16:52:50  <nielsm> okay I made a mistake somewhere
16:55:44  <peter1138> Hmm, so only allowing one ship out of a depot a time helps.
16:56:42  <peter1138> Spreads out the pathfinding a bit.
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16:57:05  <peter1138> With 100 ships it even still goes faster in FFWD.
16:57:41  <peter1138> Adds a bit of a bottleneck though.
17:01:44  <Alberth> they eventually do spread themselves out over the route anyway :)
17:01:49  <peter1138> True.
17:04:24  <peter1138>
17:05:08  <peter1138> Middle commit is shitty with the table in it. Couldn't see an equivalent function :p
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17:08:04  <peter1138> So not quite a fix for ship pathfinding, just a series of kluges.
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17:15:05  <peter1138> Hmm, continue coding, or Minecraft?
17:15:18  <Xaroth> why not both?
17:18:51  <Wolf01> o/
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17:25:17  <peter1138> Woo 16 diamonds.
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17:27:32  <Alberth> moin
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17:52:20  <andythenorth> well
17:52:41  <peter1138> Hello
17:52:42  <Xaroth> well what?
17:53:05  <peter1138> I guess he's reviewing NRT
17:53:31  <andythenorth> I think we should just commit tbh
17:53:35  <andythenorth> and sweep up the mess later
17:53:43  <peter1138> Time to prune my tree farm.
17:54:07  <andythenorth> I like this
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17:58:50  <Xaroth> but it used to be fun to send out 500 ships at the same time :(
18:02:33  <Wolf01> I like this
18:02:43  <andythenorth> wondered when you'd mention that
18:02:48  <andythenorth> new valve
18:02:58  <andythenorth> there are very high res images linked from Eurobricks
18:03:06  <andythenorth> I'm buying the forest harvester, it's really awful
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18:28:27  <peter1138> Yay it built
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18:51:34  <andythenorth> deliveroo
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19:03:37  <andythenorth> oops
19:03:42  <andythenorth> playing tanks again
19:07:42  <peter1138> :)
19:07:57  <peter1138> Good ol' Blitzkrieg
19:11:31  <andythenorth> WOTB
19:12:15  <peter1138> liveries?
19:18:05  <andythenorth> tanks have camo
19:18:08  <andythenorth> can choose them
19:18:11  <andythenorth> hmm
19:18:20  <andythenorth> maybe alberth knows how ottd GUI works?
19:18:30  <andythenorth> credits say he's a GUI Wizard or something :)
19:18:52  <Alberth> I didn't write that credits :p
19:25:01  <nielsm> maybe they meant to say lizard
19:29:05  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> new valve <- I hope is easier to motorize
19:29:17  <andythenorth> looks made for it
19:29:34  <Wolf01> I don't want to put a servo for that... servos drain battery really fast
19:29:39  <andythenorth> now just need an S motor
19:29:51  <Wolf01> Eh, that :(
19:30:16  <andythenorth> they made nearly everything ever wanted
19:30:21  <andythenorth> new pneumatics, all that jazz
19:31:08  <Wolf01> Bigger turntable
19:31:15  <Wolf01> (already with BWE)
19:31:27  <Wolf01> I still need to build the BWE :(
19:31:27  <andythenorth> giant wheels
19:31:34  <andythenorth> only thing I lack is an S motor
19:31:38  <andythenorth> all other ideas covered
19:32:26  <Wolf01> I would like PF valves
19:33:03  <andythenorth> bit too specialised imho :)
19:33:09  <andythenorth> and probably $$$$
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19:34:53  <Wolf01> Also I want helicoidal gears
19:35:54  <peter1138> What I want is...
19:36:07  <Wolf01> NRT on master
19:42:50  <andythenorth> 1 commit is all it takes
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19:53:36  <peter1138> Hmm, how do you get the sprite aligner up?
19:55:07  <andythenorth> ? menu
19:55:34  <peter1138> Gotta enable it in the config. Done now.
19:55:47  <peter1138> So I have a patch here to add zoom in/out buttons :p
19:59:17  <peter1138> Not that it applies of course.
19:59:18  <andythenorth> o_O
19:59:41  <peter1138> It's only 4 years old though.
20:05:05  <peter1138> Heh, the old patches to scale images differently.
20:06:18  <peter1138>
20:06:21  <peter1138> How weird.
20:08:45  <andythenorth> ha
20:08:51  <andythenorth> let's not though :)
20:08:55  <peter1138> :-)
20:09:03  <peter1138> It's pre-32bpp-grfs.
20:09:14  <andythenorth> it's uncanny valley
20:09:17  <andythenorth> it's nearly brilliant
20:09:19  <andythenorth> but not quite
20:09:57  <peter1138>
20:09:59  <peter1138> Oh look!
20:11:12  <Wolf01> :o
20:12:12  <andythenorth> :(
20:12:34  <andythenorth> it's like a tour of all the things we can't have :)
20:12:59  <Wolf01> Devs are mean, I leave :(
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20:13:28  <peter1138>
20:13:32  <peter1138> That's not actually Pikka...
20:13:49  <glx> cosmetic work needed tor the half rivers
20:14:51  <glx> *for
20:15:17  <Wolf01> I'm still waiting for this
20:15:57  <peter1138> Heh
20:16:11  <peter1138>
20:16:19  <peter1138> I spent time doing that at some point... why...
20:16:41  <andythenorth> Wolf01: bad community
20:16:55  <andythenorth> i drew the half-rivers :P
20:16:59  <andythenorth> then I rage quit
20:17:15  <andythenorth> peter1138: 'because you could' :P
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20:37:15  <peter1138> 8So.
20:37:17  <peter1138> -8
20:38:28  <__ln__> maybe you should divide it by 8
20:38:44  <peter1138> Ok
20:38:46  <Wolf01> ln is right
20:39:05  <LordAro> maybe take the natural log of 8
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20:43:13  <peter1138> Hmm, where did I leave my tablet...
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21:15:27  <andythenorth> sleep time
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21:19:09  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause,
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21:33:48  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:14:57  <peter1138> Hmm... how to store a value which can be a DiagDir or an Axis?
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22:40:57  <Eddi|zuHause> have it be a DiagDir and for the cases where it's an Axis assert it doesn't use any values outside DiagDirToAxis()?
22:41:50  <Eddi|zuHause> or use modern concepts like polymorphism
22:42:06  <peter1138> Hahaha
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22:42:27  <peter1138> That's not so helpful for stuffing into 3 bits in the map array.
22:42:55  <peter1138> Nor do I want to rewrite the whole game.
22:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> but as far as i know, Axis is a subset of DiagDir, right?
22:43:16  <peter1138> No?
22:43:34  <peter1138> DiagDir is compass directions.
22:44:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you have 2 axes and 8 diagdirs
22:44:42  <peter1138> Just 4 diagdirs.
22:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, 8 directions, 4 diagdirs and 2 axes
22:46:14  <peter1138> Right, but that's irrelevant.
22:46:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but there definitely were these conversion functions like "AxisToDiagDir"
22:46:31  <peter1138> I have 6 values.
22:46:40  <Eddi|zuHause> trackdir?
22:46:54  <peter1138> No, DiagDir or Axis.
22:48:22  <Eddi|zuHause> why is there need to differentiate that? surely the axis is just the diagdir modulo up/down
22:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> NE/SW == X, NW/SE == Y, or so
22:49:13  <peter1138> DiagDir is half a tile (single direction), Axis is a full tile (bi directional)
22:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid i'm missing some context on what you're trying to achieve
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