Log for #openttd on 1st November 2018:
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07:58:40  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6925: Fix #6574 #6636 #5405 #6493: Aircraft hangar issues
08:09:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6926: Change: Allow dock to be constructed in more locations
08:14:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6927: Change: Forbid dock placement on docking area
08:20:58  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6931: Change: Prevent town growth from blocking ships
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10:45:26  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6956: Fix #6145: Prevent ships without valid orders from moving
10:49:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6846: Feature: Allow flip of train vehicles in depot independently of NewGRF property
10:50:03  <nielsm> can we close that PR if the author doesn't respond within a week or so?
10:51:42  <planetmaker> a week is probably too short. But a month seems reasonable to me
10:51:54  <planetmaker> good morning also
11:05:44  <LordAro> o/
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11:06:31  <planetmaker> \o
11:06:35  <Wolf01> o/
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11:59:14  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6923: Fix #6460: [AI] Add start_date parameter for Random AIs on new game
12:01:07  <nielsm> okay I think I'm done shooting down samu PRs for today :P
12:01:29  <planetmaker> he
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12:06:24  <nielsm> (but really, I try reading and understanding them, purpose and method)
12:13:12  <LordAro> hehe
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13:24:39  <Wolf01> Oh... it's not saturday, I was wondering why there wasn't a FFF this week
13:29:50  <frosch123> catholic people :p
13:30:57  <Wolf01> I took 2 days to rest, nothing to do with catholicism :P My coworkers are working
13:33:08  <planetmaker> what's an FFF?
13:33:16  <Wolf01> Factorio friday fact
13:33:21  <planetmaker> oh :)
13:33:22  <frosch123> huh? how long have you been in this channel?
13:33:34  <planetmaker> hm, 10 years? :D
13:34:10  <planetmaker> but yes, I don't own Factorio (yet)
13:34:21  <planetmaker> waiting for a good deal somewhere on gog or steam :P
13:34:48  <frosch123> i bought the 10€ version, since 5€ appeared too little
13:34:56  <frosch123> but i guess you are too late for that :p
13:35:23  <Wolf01> Yeah, and I don't think it will be officially discounted
13:35:33  <frosch123> otoh, i got a t-shirt from V, so i made profit
13:36:03  <frosch123> oh, right, kovarex said that he very much opposes sales
13:36:32  <Wolf01> Ha! I want to buy one tee, but that "we plan to add more gear to the shop" is forcing me to wait
13:37:35  <Wolf01> I would like an inserter+belt statuette :P
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14:43:44  <peter1138> Urgh, that's that time when that single sale day, Black Friday, starts for the month...
14:43:56  <peter1138> (The one that was only in the US a couple of years ago)
15:27:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6931: Change: Prevent town growth from blocking ships
15:31:51  <LordAro> planetmaker: factorio doesn't do sales
15:42:14  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6935: Add: EnsureNoShipFromDiagDirs
15:59:59  <peter1138> It's like £21 now, so no, I'm not going to buy it.
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16:02:19  <peter1138> Might've bought it for 5 or 10 but never knew about it then.
16:05:57  <Wolf01> I think 20€ is the right price for a 1.0 release, at this point 10-15€ is fine, but 26€ is too much
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16:19:35  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6927: Change: Forbid dock placement on docking area
16:20:56  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6928: Fix #5713: Use pathfinder to find closest ship depot
16:25:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6923: Fix #6460: [AI] Add start_date parameter for Random AIs on new game
16:29:54  <nielsm> oh yeah, have anyone else noticed "dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer" printeds to the console a bunch when starting the game? it appears it's copying the revision name into a gamelog buffer that runs out of space
16:30:04  <nielsm> I'm not sure how much trouble that will cause
16:31:30  <nielsm> but the buffer is 15 bytes and the revision name uses 9 bytes just for date + dash, and then also wants 9 more bytes at least for git hash, and also a branch name between date and revision hash if not on master
16:31:56  <nielsm> so it can definitely cause non-identical versions to show as identical in the gamelog, as far as I understand
16:33:03  <peter1138> Another cause is music packs, there's a fixed length buffer in there for some reason which causes massive spammage if you download a few music packs from bananas.
16:34:33  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6925: Fix #6574 #6636 #5405 #6493: Aircraft hangar issues
16:34:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #6923: Fix #6460: [AI] Add start_date parameter for Random AIs on new game
16:47:44  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6925: Fix #6574 #6636 #5405 #6493: Aircraft hangar issues
16:56:14  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6923: Fix #6460: [AI] Add start_date parameter for Random AIs on new game
16:56:19  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6460: Can't access Random AI Parameters in a game
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16:57:02  <nielsm> there's way too many individual changes in that aircraft hangar PR, I think it'd be easier to handle if split up
16:57:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek-github] pyup-bot opened pull request #19: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November
16:57:30  <nielsm> END OF THE WORLD
16:58:12  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek-irc] pyup-bot opened pull request #15: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November
16:59:05  <peter1138> Hmm
16:59:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek-runner] pyup-bot opened pull request #10: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November
17:06:12  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6904: Add: AI/GS GetMonthlyMaintenanceCost
17:06:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6611: Fluidsynth music driver
17:06:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6901: Add: Fluidsynth music driver support (jmak)
17:10:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6891: Question Building the project on Windows
17:11:46  <LordAro> loud noises continue
17:12:03  <LordAro> i wonder whether we can differentiate between commebts & reviews
17:12:32  <LordAro> "comments", on the whole, don't need to be echoed here, i'd suggest
17:17:18  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6566: Very long loading of the maximum "zoom out" level in 4K resolution
17:17:19  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6566: Very long loading of the maximum "zoom out" level in 4K resolution
17:30:56  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6498: Money bug in Detailed performance rating window
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17:33:34  <frosch123> i see no big difference between comments and reviews
17:33:55  <frosch123> unless you mean comments on issues vs. comments on prs
17:35:09  <LordAro> mostly the latter, yeah
17:35:50  <LordAro> you get one review notification, and a comment notification for each response to every bit of the review
17:48:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6957: Fix #6498: Use int64 for all company rating calculations
18:14:57  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6322: AI can allocate more memory than the system has, crashing the game
18:45:00  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6925: Fix #6574 #6636 #5405 #6493: Aircraft hangar issues
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18:47:41  <andythenorth> o/
18:51:51  <andythenorth> it's like PR christmas out there
18:57:07  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6958: Fix #6864: Normalise colour use in Frame rate window
19:04:01  <LordAro> nielsm: stop being so productive
19:05:02  <andythenorth> gotta tidy all samu's patches eh :)
19:05:12  <nielsm> lol
19:05:37  <nielsm> I've taken this week off work
19:05:42  <nielsm> gotta do something!
19:12:24  <andythenorth> :)
19:12:51  <nielsm> now, time to break squirrel completely
19:19:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6925: Fix #6574 #6636 #5405 #6493: Aircraft hangar issues
19:32:11  <michi_cc> andythenorth: You're slacking ;) No love from you for my OSX PR :)
19:32:35  <andythenorth> I can't build reliably currently
19:32:41  <andythenorth> I am stuck on LordAro's branch
19:32:45  <andythenorth> with patches
19:32:53  <andythenorth> merging multiple forks is odd
19:33:04  <andythenorth> unreliable results :)
19:33:50  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX
19:34:22  <nielsm> alternative hack for building: write a small wrapper shell script for clang that responds more favorably to --version
19:34:42  <nielsm> and tell configure to use that as CC
19:39:40  <andythenorth> could we just fix configure?
19:42:34  <andythenorth> :P
19:42:54  <nielsm> configure is PERFECT IN ITS CREATION
19:49:08  <andythenorth> Apple is not
19:53:48  <TrueBrain> I am just shocked OpenTTD still uses config.lib, which I wrote 10 years ago :P
19:53:55  <TrueBrain> go replace it with something sane, like CMake, or something :D
19:57:05  <frosch123> it works?
19:57:15  <TrueBrain> it "works" :P
19:57:27  <frosch123> do you want to use it to build on windows?
19:57:34  <andythenorth> so
19:57:45  <TrueBrain> that is right, CMake and Windows are friends these days
19:57:48  <TrueBrain> which is pretty nice :)
19:57:51  <andythenorth> if I set LordAro's fork as the upstream to a clone of Michi's fork?
19:57:55  <andythenorth> I might get a build?
19:58:21  <TrueBrain> just cherry-pick them into each other :P
19:58:38  <TrueBrain> hmm, I even forgot that vspkg and CMake are friends
19:58:47  <TrueBrain> meaning you could work towards dropping openttd-useful
19:58:47  <andythenorth> I love providing feedback on branches when I'm testing them in my own personal patch pack :P
19:59:07  <andythenorth> do we all have our own PP these days? o_O
19:59:10  <TrueBrain> now that would be a nice project :)
19:59:28  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: shall I advertise in the forums :P
19:59:46  <andythenorth> 'Project: replace config.lib with buzzwords'
19:59:49  <andythenorth> :D
19:59:54  <TrueBrain> CMake is not a buzzword, but sure :P
20:00:09  <andythenorth> is 'bees' a buzzword? o_O
20:00:13  <frosch123> "make openttd build on windows with cmake and vspkg"
20:00:13  <TrueBrain> yes
20:00:20  <frosch123> "without openttd-useful"
20:00:31  <TrueBrain> that would seriously improve things
20:00:33  <frosch123> i think someone asked for a more precise task
20:01:19  <andythenorth>
20:02:02  <frosch123> will people take that serious?
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20:02:17  <andythenorth> do we want serious people?
20:02:20  <andythenorth> I can more serious it
20:02:21  <frosch123> it's 9 lines which could be shortened into one
20:04:02  <TrueBrain> I love how peopple took my personally trello for shit-to-do-for-OpenTTD as a task-list anyone could pick up :)
20:04:06  <TrueBrain> somewhere some nuance got lost :P
20:04:17  <TrueBrain> can we install Jira to order stuff better? :D
20:05:03  <frosch123> if we install 10 issue trackers, will that order stuff even better? :)
20:05:10  <TrueBrain> YES!
20:05:13  <TrueBrain> at least
20:05:15  <TrueBrain> I think?
20:05:16  <TrueBrain> :D
20:05:30  <andythenorth> we can track the issue trackers
20:05:40  <andythenorth> I love how every issue tracker eventually links to a trello
20:05:44  <andythenorth> it's like a modern fact
20:19:12  <TrueBrain> I will see this weekend if I can convert what is on Trello into something more actionable in general
20:19:34  <TrueBrain> or possibly I make an 'infrastructure' project on GitHub or something
20:20:13  <TrueBrain> wish you could move issues between projects on GitHub
20:20:37  <TrueBrain> haha
20:20:39  <andythenorth> you can't?
20:20:40  <TrueBrain> that is now a beta functionality :D
20:20:49  <andythenorth> or you could API it :P
20:21:39  <TrueBrain> hahahahaha
20:21:47  <TrueBrain> that beta went live ... YESTERDAY :D
20:21:48  <TrueBrain> haha :D
20:21:50  <TrueBrain> that is funny :P
20:22:07  <TrueBrain> okay, that is cool and useful
20:23:35  <andythenorth> neat
20:23:53  <andythenorth> now we can move all issues to JGR's GH page?
20:24:00  <TrueBrain> hahaha
20:24:25  <TrueBrain> I wonder what I should prioritize .. and that answer is more complex than I would like
20:24:45  <TrueBrain> having nightlies is nice .. but having a stable infrastructure can very quickly escalate to a must-have :P
20:27:40  <andythenorth> nightlies is not that big a deal right now
20:27:50  <andythenorth> TrueBrain bus factor worries me most :P
20:28:10  <nielsm> having more "regular people" testing everything would be useful though
20:28:16  <andythenorth> it would yes, but
20:28:25  <andythenorth> there is no but
20:28:29  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I keep hearing that .. just to be perfectly clear: there are more people who have the keys to the castle
20:28:34  <andythenorth> phew :)
20:28:52  <andythenorth> so what are the alternative candidates to nightlies?
20:29:49  <TrueBrain> I dont understand the question :)
20:29:55  <nielsm> I could set up that machine I have with a semi-fried HDMI output to run headless windows and build once in a while
20:29:58  <nielsm> :)
20:30:16  <TrueBrain> nielsm: we have the hardware, that is not the issue :)
20:30:30  <nielsm> WELL SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!!
20:30:32  <nielsm> :P
20:30:40  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so what's complex about the prioritisation? o_O
20:30:44  <andythenorth> or should I just play tanks? :P
20:30:57  <nielsm> I mean as a hackjob
20:31:04  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I find it hard to balance .. finish CF, or make sure the infra is stable
20:31:22  <TrueBrain> nielsm: if we like, I can cook up a hack solutions; just it doesn't scale :P
20:31:32  <TrueBrain> no, let me rephrase that
20:31:55  <TrueBrain> nielsm: I try to avoid people creating binaries that are published on which run on "home computers"
20:32:03  <TrueBrain> we have some .. terrible experience with that :P
20:32:17  <TrueBrain> has the infrastructure to run shit
20:32:23  <TrueBrain> we just need the thing to run :)
20:32:24  <nielsm> yeah, I know it's not great to run production-ish things on residential lines
20:32:37  <TrueBrain> that, and a chain-of-trust, reproducability, etc
20:33:01  <TrueBrain> what I can do, for example, is start up Bamboo again, and let him compile the stuff again
20:33:05  <TrueBrain> only .. he runs compilers from 2015
20:33:11  <TrueBrain> which are not C++11
20:33:18  <TrueBrain> (which people had issues with, for some odd reason :P)
20:34:41  <V453000> yo huminz
20:36:32  <andythenorth> and V453000
20:36:43  <TrueBrain> nielsm: another reason things are more difficult than they used to be: before GitHub, we could 'trust' the content of the repository to not have a bitcoin miner, for example
20:36:52  <TrueBrain> as such, we just had a Jenkins Agent on a Windows VM, doing its thing
20:37:06  <TrueBrain> with the GitHub move, I ...have .... a bit of issues just blindly running PRs :P
20:37:21  <TrueBrain> that would require a lot more sysadmining, I am pretty sure :D
20:37:31  <TrueBrain> so I would strongly prefer if we could containerize stuff
20:37:43  <V453000> what news? :)
20:37:43  <TrueBrain> (as we can just kill Dockers that run for more than N minutes :P)
20:37:49  <nielsm> ah right, I was thinking just starting out with master builds
20:37:59  <nielsm> presumably nobody merges random shit without understanding it :)
20:38:09  <TrueBrain> wellllllllllllll
20:38:13  <TrueBrain> we don't enforce 2FA yet
20:38:18  <TrueBrain> which we should, if we do that
20:38:28  <TrueBrain> plenty of GitHub repositories have been owned the last few months :)
20:39:04  <TrueBrain> maybe we should do that anyway :P
20:39:11  <nielsm> and later, builds of PRs should probably only happen after approval from someone
20:39:23  <andythenorth> I would like to not get owned by OpenTTD
20:39:28  <nielsm> builds that get binaries published, that is
20:39:33  <TrueBrain> last week I got the chance to talk to a few people who run bigger farms than OpenTTD
20:39:35  <andythenorth> it would be preferable to not have to buy a separate mac to run it on
20:39:40  <TrueBrain> asking them how they mitigate the risks
20:39:47  <TrueBrain> is ... interesting ... :P
20:40:15  <TrueBrain> (basically, they have things to prevent abuse, but in the end, it requires their attention to keep it clean)
20:40:49  <TrueBrain> but yeah, having the CI trigger only after some whitelisted person asks for it is possible
20:40:55  <TrueBrain> I was more thinking to use that to publish the binaries
20:41:06  <TrueBrain> as we can fence off that the CI either is killed after N time, or behaves
20:41:16  <TrueBrain> but I am more worries about the binaries we publish for others to download
20:41:25  <andythenorth> me too
20:41:25  <TrueBrain> we have to be reasonably sure they are not infected in some matter
20:41:38  <TrueBrain> on the forums, it is nice people post their binaries
20:41:44  <TrueBrain> but .. I would never download any of them :P
20:41:53  <andythenorth> what extra risk is there in GH compared to owning our own repo?
20:41:57  <TrueBrain> (well, only to check for malware, from time to time :P)
20:42:08  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: fully whitelisted
20:42:13  <andythenorth> compromised user creds is same risk both places?
20:42:14  <TrueBrain> SVN didn't have pull requests
20:42:28  <TrueBrain> yes; but it was non-trivial to login
20:42:36  <TrueBrain> (svn+ssh over an URL not published)
20:42:51  <andythenorth> so you'd have to craft a specific attack?
20:42:54  <TrueBrain> GitHub is widely known ... so a much easier vector :)
20:42:56  <TrueBrain> yes
20:43:03  <andythenorth> GH is commodity attack
20:43:16  <TrueBrain> people who do these things (and can harvest credentials) don't do targeted attacks :P
20:43:26  <andythenorth> shall we just move to client-server architecture / MMORG :P
20:43:33  <andythenorth> and distribute a signed client in app stores
20:43:48  <andythenorth> that escalated quickly
20:44:14  <TrueBrain> well, left or right, publishing binaries does require some level of confidence
20:44:21  <TrueBrain> signing the binaries is not the worst idea
20:44:32  <TrueBrain> sadly, not many good common ways to validate the signature
20:44:45  <TrueBrain> (on Windows I am sure 99% of the people never ever validated a signature :P)
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20:47:37  <TrueBrain> ah, here the CMake bla comes showing up again : currently for a Windows container, I have to rename files to match the expected name by the MSVC project file :D
20:47:45  <TrueBrain> vspkg calls it libpng16.lib
20:47:51  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD expected libpng.lib :D
20:48:00  <TrueBrain> (and there are a few more)
20:48:25  <nielsm> alternatively set up the msbuild project to accept overrides of the library names
20:48:35  <nielsm> etc
20:48:53  <TrueBrain> I know nothing about the MSVC project :D
20:49:15  <nielsm> I do!
20:49:32  <TrueBrain> so let me show you a few things .. I have to type the URLs, this will be fun:
20:49:44  <TrueBrain>
20:49:58  <nielsm> several years ago I did some pretty snazzy project setup for aegisub, with custom property pages and all :)
20:49:58  <TrueBrain> that is the "common" part for Windows Container
20:50:20  <TrueBrain>
20:50:23  <TrueBrain> and there is the rest of it
20:50:34  <TrueBrain> line 28 .. 73 are "fixes"
20:50:47  <TrueBrain> just to conform to our build-system
20:51:00  <TrueBrain> but I can summarize that different:
20:51:08  <TrueBrain> "make MSVC work with packages from vspkg"
20:51:16  <TrueBrain> (dropping openttd-useful)
20:51:37  <TrueBrain> maybe even more actionable than changing to CMake :P
20:51:50  <TrueBrain> (as you noticed in these Dockerfiles, no openttd-useful is installed)
20:51:50  <nielsm> is vspkg part of the win10 sdk?
20:52:00  <TrueBrain> vspkg is a Microsoft project on GitHub
20:52:15  <TrueBrain> euh
20:52:17  <TrueBrain> vcpkg
20:52:21  <TrueBrain> fucking hell, typing is hard
20:52:24  <TrueBrain> s/vspkg/vcpkg/
20:52:27  <TrueBrain> s/vspkg/vcpkg/g
20:52:28  <TrueBrain> ! :D
20:52:38  <TrueBrain>
20:52:57  <TrueBrain> cannot believe I kept typing that wrong :P
20:53:11  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: fix that in your post plz :D
20:53:15  <TrueBrain> vspkg = vcpkg :D
20:53:44  <TrueBrain> I think I can drop the whole ICU hack, and just not install it
20:53:57  <andythenorth> fixed
20:54:14  <TrueBrain> ty
20:55:04  <TrueBrain> okay, slowly crawling to more actionable things to get the CF alive:
20:55:38  <TrueBrain> 1) remove openttd-useful (meaning we have up-to-date libraries ... which sounds like a good idea I guess :P)
20:56:01  <TrueBrain> 2) check if the VM on our server is Windows 10 Pro
20:56:24  <TrueBrain> 3) validate that my 'windows' branch of OpenTTD-CF still works; fix what is broken (see 1)
20:56:24  <orudge> I did intend recently to try to look at CMake for OpenTTD. As usual, time is the problem :(
20:56:41  <TrueBrain> orudge: yup; I made a quick mockup months ago. It is pretty straight-forward
20:57:07  <TrueBrain> , if you are interested
20:57:21  <orudge> CMake + vcpkg sounds like it would make things much easier for MSVC users
20:57:37  <TrueBrain> it drastically improves starting with OpenTTD on Windows
20:57:39  <TrueBrain> as it "just works"
20:57:57  <TrueBrain> (instead of having to go through a wiki tutorial :P)
20:58:04  <orudge> Yeah
20:58:37  <TrueBrain> either way, to continue my brain-dump
20:58:51  <TrueBrain> 4) find a controller to run release-* every night on the 'master'
20:59:01  <TrueBrain> 5) publish those results ... 'somehow', for people to download
20:59:03  <TrueBrain> 6) ???
20:59:05  <TrueBrain> 7) profit
20:59:25  <TrueBrain> 4) is most likely Jenkins; not the best, but will hav eto do
21:00:14  <TrueBrain> 5) is more tricky than I would like .. currently binaries are published in an internal VM, to be moved to another internal VM, to be mirrored
21:00:43  <TrueBrain> 2) is an easy check ... let me login
21:01:30  <TrueBrain> haha, not enough memory available
21:04:32  <TrueBrain> yup, it is Windows 10 Pro; good, means we can run Hyper-V on it
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21:05:25  <Wolf01> Internet disservice provider
21:05:30  <Wolf01> Oh, a wild TrueBrain: since you seem good with docker, I would like to know what it could do for me, I want to publish a SAAS cloud infrastructure, every time I need to publish a new version I could do it once or for each container?
21:06:18  <TrueBrain> use kubernetes :P
21:06:48  <Wolf01> Does it work on windows server?
21:07:02  <TrueBrain> Docker on Windows in production I havent seen yet
21:07:28  <Wolf01> The SAAS is asp based
21:08:01  <TrueBrain> either way, a container is just what is running an image (in docker terms)
21:08:27  <TrueBrain> if you make a new image, you of course have to recreate the containers
21:08:36  <TrueBrain> there are people who update the containers themself
21:08:42  <TrueBrain> but .. that is a bit weird
21:08:46  <TrueBrain> (why are you using docker in that case)
21:09:10  <TrueBrain> left or right, the answer is not simple. But one piece of advise: don't use docker because it is hot
21:09:23  <TrueBrain> use it because you have a need for it
21:09:34  <Wolf01> It was one of the ideas :P
21:09:59  <TrueBrain> don't solve a non-existing problem by throwing a solution against it
21:10:18  <TrueBrain> first wonder what you are trying to solve; after that look for solutions that supply that :)
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21:10:45  <TrueBrain> (this currently really happens a lot .. people using Docker because "it is hot" .. some for cloud ..)
21:11:03  <andythenorth> Wolf01: where are your instances deployed?
21:11:08  <andythenorth> VMs on a cloud provider?
21:11:36  <Wolf01> We have a server on a datacenter
21:11:49  <andythenorth> and do you deploy multiple instances of the same app?
21:11:52  <TrueBrain> I hope it is in it, but that is just me :D
21:12:40  <TrueBrain> nielsm: I hope you understand a tiny bit more that for me at least it is non-trivial to have a working nightly compile farm :D
21:12:41  <Wolf01> Currently it is just one app with multiple databases, but the users are growing and the machine doesn't seem to keep up
21:13:11  <andythenorth> we run single-tenant apps, in single tenant VMs
21:13:21  <TrueBrain> nielsm: but if you know MSVC projects a bit, if you could look into removing openttd-useful, that would really really help me
21:13:35  <andythenorth> a long time ago we ran multi-tenant apps on shared hosting with other customers
21:13:46  <andythenorth> over time we've moved through multiple solutions
21:13:50  <Wolf01> That was my idea too, but our problem is to minimise the weekly update time and work
21:14:24  <andythenorth> single-tenant app, single-tenant VM on private cloud offers the best infosec for us
21:14:33  <andythenorth> but it also has some scaling issues
21:14:38  <nielsm> TrueBrain: let's start by removing the project files for VC older than 2015 :)
21:14:52  <TrueBrain> sounds like a plan :D
21:15:22  <andythenorth> Wolf01 our app instances are deployed from git tags, we have a utility that polls for new tags and runs the update process if one is found
21:15:30  <andythenorth> this scales well to N
21:15:57  <andythenorth> it could also be done with Ansible or a similar orchestration tool
21:16:11  <andythenorth> we use orchestration to manage the VMs
21:16:28  <andythenorth> we look at docker sometimes because 'everyone else uses it' but we miss what we would gain
21:16:41  <andythenorth> it just seems to add complexity and attack surface in our case
21:17:35  <TrueBrain> using only docker for production at this day and age is silly
21:17:43  <TrueBrain> you need at least a wrapper around it to help you out :)
21:17:49  <andythenorth> Wolf01 in our model we pay relatively high ££ for VMs, for workload that could just be run on one huge box
21:17:52  <TrueBrain> (kubernetes is flavor-of-the-month)
21:18:10  <andythenorth> but generally outages are limited to fewer customers at once, unless the hosting provider loses a whole rack
21:18:32  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I kind of prefer steam age technology for some reason :P
21:19:05  <TrueBrain> I am pleasently surprised you use an orchestration tool for VMs :)
21:19:09  <TrueBrain> that too, I see not often enough
21:19:13  <TrueBrain> with hilarious results :D
21:19:38  <andythenorth> cattle not pets, no?
21:19:49  <andythenorth> we have half a plan to just image them and redeploy images
21:20:12  <andythenorth> but on OpenStack it seems to occasionally mean things that should be quick are very very slow
21:21:37  <TrueBrain> still have to try out things like OpenStack
21:21:44  <TrueBrain> I only know about it, never used it
21:22:00  <TrueBrain> same for openvswitch, also from what I understand very useful in cloud-like setups
21:22:38  <andythenorth> we use it via the rackspace web UI :P
21:22:40  <andythenorth> clicky buttons
21:22:46  <TrueBrain> :D
21:23:26  <andythenorth> one day I find an SRE
21:23:30  <andythenorth> then all my problems are solved
21:23:32  <andythenorth> forever
21:23:42  <TrueBrain> hahahaha :D
21:23:46  <TrueBrain> keep dreaming my friend :D
21:24:02  <andythenorth> do I just have 2 problems?
21:24:06  <TrueBrain> yup
21:24:08  <andythenorth> I have infra
21:24:13  <TrueBrain> I need infra
21:24:14  <andythenorth> and I have to manage an SRE :P
21:24:14  <TrueBrain> tradE?
21:24:21  <andythenorth> problems doubled
21:24:56  <andythenorth> I had an idea that cloud would free us from servers
21:24:57  <andythenorth> oops
21:30:05  <yellyFish> you are telling me that data is not stored in the sky?
21:30:20  <planetmaker> ho
21:30:31  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I also should really setup a staging area for DorpsGek_II .. I cannot test the PyUp change :D
21:30:34  <planetmaker> I'm telling you there are data in the sky :P
21:30:48  <TrueBrain> and crashing down on us!
21:30:52  <TrueBrain> OWH NO, WE ARE BOMBARDED !
21:31:12  <yellyFish> actually, china's satellite...
21:31:50  <TrueBrain> right, that is my cue to leave :P
21:31:52  <TrueBrain> night all
21:34:31  <andythenorth> bye TB
21:37:42  <nielsm> uh this is weird
21:37:48  <Wolf01> Bye
21:37:57  <nielsm> the bash 'generate' script adds fluidsynth to the windows project files
21:38:11  <nielsm> the vbs one does not
21:38:20  <nielsm> neither of them should defined FLUIDSYNTH
21:40:28  <nielsm> oh, the bash script does it backwards
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21:45:41  <nielsm> and apparently the pre-commit check script does not handle deleted files
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21:52:03  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6959: Fix: Fluidsynth should not be added to VC project files
21:53:12  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015
21:54:49  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #6959: Fix: Fluidsynth should not be added to VC project files
21:56:47  <nielsm> sometimes I wonder if it would be worth adding a check to the CI so it doesn't attempt to build for a platform when nothing affecting that platform has changed
21:57:25  <glx> will be fixed with the windows compile farm ;)
21:57:50  <glx> at least the build won't be useless
21:57:59  *** Guest1972 has quit IRC
21:58:31  <nielsm> and maybe can run some more of the builds in parallel? :/
21:59:07  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015
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22:20:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #6959: Fix: Fluidsynth should not be added to VC project files
22:21:21  <nielsm> as expected, CI fails on the other
22:21:31  <nielsm> it doesn't handle deleted files
22:21:50  <nielsm> rejects /dev/null for having no terminating newline
22:22:04  *** Guest1975 has quit IRC
22:32:04  <glx> of course
22:35:55  <LordAro> ha
22:36:01  <glx> something to fix in
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22:36:23  <LordAro> TrueBrain: orudge: my branch is progressed slightly further
22:36:44  <LordAro>
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23:35:09  <nielsm>
23:35:22  <nielsm> there's a hacky fix for the commit hook
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