Log for #openttd on 30th November 2018:
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11:40:14  <planetmaker> moin
11:40:33  <planetmaker> we got an interesting e-mail. What do you guys think?
11:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds fun, but i probably wouldn't take part in one of those
11:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but shouldn't they do that sort of stuff on the forums?
11:54:17  <Xaroth> I think a news post on the site could also give exposure
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12:47:01  <planetmaker> I told them that they definitely should post on the forums. Maybe show up here. And maybe reddit as well
12:47:20  <planetmaker> but yeah... what besides that. I'm pondering a news post... it would be an unusual thing to do :)
12:48:38  <Xaroth> Unusual doesn't have to be a bad thing
12:48:45  <Xaroth> promoting your community promotes your product.
12:49:00  <planetmaker> yep. That goes both ways in this case, but yes
12:50:56  <planetmaker> Honestly I wouldn't mind a posting on our news page at all.
12:51:42  <Xaroth> go for it
12:53:26  <planetmaker> Maybe we should more regularily post such things on our main page. Also special events by other regular OpenTTD communities like the reddits etc
12:53:36  <planetmaker> it wouldn't hurt
12:53:51  <Xaroth> as I said, promoting your community promotes your product :)
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18:15:42  <andythenorth> o/
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19:12:11  <andythenorth> oof
19:12:17  <andythenorth> too much train, very delete
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19:29:29  <ZehMatt> Hi
19:30:09  <ZehMatt> is @peter1138 still around?
19:33:58  <andythenorth> @seen peter1138
19:33:58  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 9 hours, 17 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <peter1138> Yeah
19:34:08  <andythenorth> apparently
19:34:09  <andythenorth> :P
19:34:32  <ZehMatt> oh, been a while
19:34:46  <ZehMatt> was hoping to find him around to see where he stands at
19:37:22  <frosch123> iirc he broke his dev environment
19:37:30  <frosch123> and on windows it apparently takes days to get one
19:37:51  <ZehMatt> i see
19:39:19  <ZehMatt> it all started with this if anyone remembers
19:39:30  <ZehMatt> so been wondering where things are at
19:39:43  * andythenorth wonders where TrueBrain is
19:41:44  <ZehMatt> still seeking for the smooth window moving on 144hz :)
19:42:09  <ZehMatt> if you ever played on 144hz screens u'll know what im talking about
19:44:44  <dwfreed> something something freesync or gsync something something
19:47:14  <ZehMatt> if you draw at 30hz it wont help :P
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19:53:40  <ZehMatt> quite a lot of open PRs
20:05:13  <andythenorth> I think we're going to have a bot that closes them
20:05:22  <andythenorth> after a month or so
20:06:00  <ZehMatt> so a PR open longer than a month can be considered rejected?
20:06:08  <ZehMatt> not sure i follow on that
20:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> <ZehMatt> if you ever played on 144hz screens u'll know what im talking about <-- dunno about that, i play loads of games that don't even reach 30fps
20:06:54  <andythenorth> ZehMatt: something like that yes
20:06:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a month is a bit short?
20:06:59  <andythenorth> probs
20:07:12  <ZehMatt> but whats the actual reason
20:07:19  <ZehMatt> not interested into the fixes/changes?
20:07:26  <andythenorth> stuff naturally dies
20:07:36  <andythenorth> if the PR is unmoved after a few months, it's not happening
20:07:45  <andythenorth> it's just noise, not signal
20:07:46  <Eddi|zuHause> ZehMatt: i think it's more about PRs in the state of "waiting for author"
20:07:57  <andythenorth> [wavey hands] "some rules"
20:08:07  <andythenorth> I found a project doing it nicely yesterday
20:08:14  <andythenorth> I wanted to steal their words
20:08:17  <andythenorth> but can't find it
20:08:50  <ZehMatt> <Eddi|zuHause> What kind of games are those
20:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> ZehMatt: dunno, i'm not involved in that, just repeating what i think i read here
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20:10:39  <ZehMatt> it just feels off if you move some UI and its slow
20:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, that you mean
20:11:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i play on linux and graphics driver is not nearly up to windows standards
20:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause> on a lower-end graphics card
20:11:19  <ZehMatt> then you probably dont run on 144hz anyway
20:11:30  <andythenorth> is it slightly choppy on drag?
20:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause> no, just saying i live in a different world than you
20:11:35  <ZehMatt> very
20:11:42  * andythenorth has thinks it's slightly choppy on macOS
20:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're probably thinking of a different kind of choppyness
20:12:35  <andythenorth> very slight latency in draw when moving windows?
20:12:44  <ZehMatt> well its my own fault for being so used to 144hz now
20:12:54  <ZehMatt> even simple 60hz displays are very weird to look at now
20:13:10  <ZehMatt> theres no going back
20:13:37  <andythenorth> wow is refresh rate still a thing? :o
20:13:54  <ZehMatt> still?
20:13:55  <frosch123> no, it's "again" :)
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20:14:26  <ZehMatt> i wish more screens would go 120+
20:14:26  <andythenorth> been years since I thought about refresh rate
20:14:51  <ZehMatt> and i wish more games would stop limiting the refresh rate to 60
20:14:56  <Eddi|zuHause> how did they ever come up with 23.976?
20:15:04  <dwfreed> ZehMatt: I've never really had great hardware; am totally used to playing games at 15-20 fps
20:15:13  <glx> for me more than 60 is useless as most games can't reach that with my hardware
20:15:47  <ZehMatt> its not just with games
20:15:56  <ZehMatt> even simple mouse movement is clearly different
20:16:02  <ZehMatt> night and day imho
20:16:06  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: <- extrapolate from there
20:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'm pretty sure i watched that before
20:19:50  <ZehMatt> so ya
20:19:55  <ZehMatt> still hoping for the best
20:19:56  <ZehMatt> :)
20:20:57  <ZehMatt> orct2 also uses tweening to make up for the time it doesnt update and its looking just awesome if you uncap the fps
20:22:20  <andythenorth> oof vehicle length troubles :(
20:22:35  <andythenorth> anyone doing templated consist replacement? o_O
20:23:03  <ZehMatt> just so i said it, great work on OpenTTD to everyone
20:23:08  <ZehMatt> thanks for that
20:23:47  <nielsm> maybe I will try to pick up on that game/ui tick separation patch at some point, if peter1138 isn't ready to pick dev back up
20:25:03  <ZehMatt> i wouldnt mind to continue either, i mean i started this mess
20:33:14  <nielsm> if you are able and willing, by all means do, picking up someone else's incomplete patch and finishing it is absolutely in the spirit of GPL license
20:33:49  <nielsm> (if anyone disagrees with someone else picking up their incomplete but published work, they shouldn't be working on a GPL licensed project)
20:39:41  <andythenorth> the train I want to draw is only 50ft long
20:39:59  <andythenorth> which makes it 6/8 in the very-much-invented Horse scale
20:40:09  <andythenorth> but it replaces an 8/8 engine
20:40:14  <andythenorth> which is kinda annoying
20:42:00  <planetmaker> hi hi
20:43:34  <andythenorth> moin planetmaker
20:46:16  <ZehMatt> well if i were to continue
20:46:27  <ZehMatt> do i just rip out all of his commits into my own branch?
20:50:37  <ZehMatt> would still like to hear word from him since he did most of the work already
20:53:41  <nielsm> add his gh fork as a remote, fetch, checkout his branch, and then push it to your own gh fork
20:54:09  <nielsm> (you'll probably want to rebase it onto current master, which will make his and yours 100% divergent regardless)
20:54:14  <ZehMatt> yea
20:54:20  <ZehMatt> i know my way around git
20:54:23  <ZehMatt> thats not the issue
20:54:41  <ZehMatt> i just dont want him to be surprised and maybe even pissed for someone else just picking up where he left off
20:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> it's been a long time since we had that kind of issue :p
20:58:40  <ZehMatt> we'll if nothing changes i probably give it a go the next days
20:58:53  <andythenorth> he won't care
20:59:00  <ZehMatt> then i can refactor the other planned things
20:59:09  <andythenorth> he might make comments :D
20:59:19  <ZehMatt> always welcome
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21:02:24  <Eddi|zuHause> we should all take a moment and remember the great bridge controversy of 2006
21:02:46  <frosch123> you are the only one old enough
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21:03:44  <ZehMatt> i remember :s
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21:06:36  <andythenorth> before my time Eddi|zuHause
21:06:49  <andythenorth> I arrived shortly after some airport drama with richk
21:07:04  <andythenorth> and shortly before peter fell out with r*bidium about something
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21:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that was a slightly different kind of drama
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21:10:45  <andythenorth> the quality of drama is currently very low
21:12:13  <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i forgot what actually triggered the richk drama
21:13:10  <planetmaker> bridge controversy... I don't recall
21:13:11  <frosch123> some guy designing newgrf specs without knowing any preexisting newgrf spec
21:13:50  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i remember when i implemented the newairports spec in grf2html and wondered.. what is this. this is against everything else
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21:14:10  <frosch123> planetmaker: probably vs bridges can cross bridges or so :p
21:14:20  <frosch123> s/vs/whether/
21:14:38  <andythenorth> isn't all that solved in JGR now?
21:15:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: it has always been possible in master, it was just deliberately disabled because it looked ugly and glitched
21:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> no, bridges can cross bridges is just a one-liner on top of the current bridge implementation, that was not controversial
21:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but the bridge-over-everything patch was merged somewhere mid-2006, and the two main developers of that patch had a disagreement about whether it was merge-ready yet, so after a huge argument it was un-merged again
21:17:00  <planetmaker> hm, I see
21:17:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and then merged again in late 2006 or early 2007
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21:17:22  <frosch123> ah, right, i recall that
21:17:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe the main actors were Tron and Celestar, but not sure
21:17:58  <frosch123> i don't know either of them
21:18:27  <frosch123> tron was never here when i was here
21:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think he was around much
21:18:56  <frosch123> and celestar was a bjarni, only here for talking, not for coding (probably he won't like the comparison) :p
21:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause> celestar did the elrails implementation, i think
21:19:51  <andythenorth> is bridge-over-everything the precursor of NRT? o_O
21:20:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- i think you like that kind of topics
21:20:30  <andythenorth> is that the one that ends in ECONOMY.PDF?
21:20:32  <andythenorth> :P
21:21:21  <andythenorth> apparently not
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21:24:22  * Eddi|zuHause must take a step back and not mention SirXavius
21:26:42  <planetmaker> urg
21:27:00  <frosch123> some people everyone remembers from just a few posts :)
21:27:34  <andythenorth> I volunteer Eddi|zuHause to be our project manager
21:27:40  <planetmaker> interestingly, my tt-f account is from 2006... so I might have seen some of the bridge controversy. but I don't recall
21:27:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: must be a BIG project manager
21:28:16  <frosch123> planetmaker: <- it's just one topic
21:28:29  <planetmaker> ah, no, 2007
21:28:32  <planetmaker> so... yeah :P
21:28:32  <frosch123> less people means smaller-scale drama :)
21:28:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I've levelled up, I'm a program manager
21:28:53  <andythenorth> gosh that's ugly frosch123
21:29:04  <andythenorth> it's like the worst Brio train ever
21:29:23  <planetmaker> hehe
21:30:25  <andythenorth>
21:30:28  <andythenorth>
21:30:31  <andythenorth>
21:30:55  <andythenorth> train is 1400HP and is direct replacement for Tencendur above it
21:31:03  <andythenorth> it's for pax / fast things
21:31:20  <andythenorth> the alternative choice for fast in this gen is 2200HP dragon
21:31:57  <frosch123> diesel engines should be smaller compared to the steam engines they replace?
21:32:07  <frosch123> or is that historical bs?
21:32:08  <andythenorth> generally yes
21:32:17  <andythenorth> no it's what Horse mostly does
21:32:30  <andythenorth> but it 'forces' consist micro-management
21:32:37  <andythenorth> unless you don't bother, because shorter is easy
21:32:58  <frosch123> the two stripes add a unique-touch, but i think you will cry when doing \ and / sprites
21:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think we have established that you are the only person bothered by that
21:33:17  <andythenorth> yes but I am also the only person making the grf :P
21:33:35  <andythenorth> so it's a 1:1 mapping of "people who care":"people with responsibility to fix it"
21:34:04  <andythenorth> the longer sprite is quite an accurate version of this
21:34:07  <andythenorth> but it's basically ugly
21:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you forgot a :1 "people who will get to use the finished GRF"
21:34:42  <andythenorth> I don't know how to calculate that one
21:34:52  <andythenorth> where is the infinity symbol on my keyboard?
21:35:06  <andythenorth> it's zeno's paradox no?
21:35:20  <Eddi|zuHause> those damn xenos all the time
21:35:38  <Eddi|zuHause> kill them with fire!
21:35:49  <Eddi|zuHause> (sorry, played too much stellaris lately)
21:36:14  <andythenorth> I always think it's xeno not zeno
21:36:17  <andythenorth> dunno why
21:36:23  <andythenorth> like xerxes
21:36:31  <frosch123> <- some ancient topics can have interesting screenshots
21:36:43  <andythenorth> I think we all know the 6/8 was always going to be the winner :P
21:36:56  <andythenorth> what is that frosch123? o_O
21:37:02  <andythenorth> stats?
21:37:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because english is a language that forgot to differentiate between "ts" and "ks" sounds
21:37:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's supposed to promote "multiple bus/truck stops in same station"
21:37:41  <frosch123> but the gui never made it
21:37:49  <Eddi|zuHause> (also "ps" and "pt")
21:37:55  <andythenorth> it's confusing :)
21:38:25  <frosch123> yes, because it uses buttons as labels
21:38:57  <frosch123> those seven buttons are just headers for the spreadsheet on the right
21:39:26  <frosch123> though, maybe they open a vehicle list
21:40:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i would have assumed they trigger some filter
21:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but are they actually the precursor to the icons that we now have on the station gui?
21:42:24  <frosch123> <- those are also listed there
21:42:55  <frosch123> but yes, that screenshot does not have them, so plausible
21:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> "OpenTTD now runs on more platforms/operating systems than ever, these include: AmigaOS, BeOS, all BSD flavors, Linux, Morphos, QNX, Solaris/SunOS, Windows and probably most other systems where SDL has been ported to " <-- how much of that is still true?
21:45:36  <Gustavo6046> I want to divide the tile map into uniform chunks, so that I can accelerate pathfinding algorithms by reducing their search space.
21:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> good luck with that
21:46:09  <frosch123> <- so, celestar is the spreadsheet guy
21:46:21  <frosch123> i'll put him into the goalserver bucket then :)
21:46:28  <nielsm> Gustavo6046: yeah good luck, it probably won't work
21:46:35  <andythenorth> I've so never wanted that stats stuff :)
21:46:48  <nielsm> (but don't take it from me, I never passed algorithms course)
21:47:14  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think we once had a patch that exported a game into graphviz
21:47:34  <andythenorth> anyway, so how about instead of auto-replace being "old train" : "new train" mapping
21:47:42  <frosch123> Gustavo6046:
21:47:51  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: to see which stations connect to which
21:47:56  <andythenorth> we do "n old train" : "n new new train"
21:48:02  <andythenorth> too many news
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21:48:10  <andythenorth> but we give it a multiplier
21:48:27  <andythenorth> then it's like a small maths puzzle
21:48:39  <Eddi|zuHause> just i never found a graphviz mode that could generate subway-map-style graphs
21:48:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think you'd have to write your own graphviz layout mode :P
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21:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the point is, i never understood how nobody had done that before
21:49:42  <andythenorth> there's a broken link here to a paper about it
21:50:04  <andythenorth> allegedly this does it
21:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> not going down that rabbit hole tonight :p
21:50:16  <andythenorth> apparently svg is now a plausible internet technology
21:50:23  <andythenorth> I used it in a production website this week
21:50:25  <andythenorth> first time ever
21:50:33  <andythenorth> standard was agreed in 1999
21:50:50  <andythenorth> that's how long it took for my traffic to not be composed of IE < 11
21:50:52  <planetmaker> svg works already for ages, kinda
21:50:56  <andythenorth> IE :P
21:51:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the industrial automation software i used at my last job used svg internally
21:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> so if it's in industry 4.0, it must be ancient technology :p
21:51:28  <andythenorth> planetmaker: we only just dropped IE 8, which Microsoft dropped in 2016, and for which https is just broken
21:51:54  <planetmaker> really, still IE at all?
21:52:09  <andythenorth> IE is quite a dominant
21:52:12  <andythenorth> browser
21:52:25  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: wouldn't be surprised if still a significant user base was windows XP
21:52:44  <planetmaker> I just read the other day that it was like ~8% using IE still.
21:52:52  <planetmaker> mostly industry, though
21:53:09  <ZehMatt> banks love IE
21:53:15  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your target audience, i guess
21:53:20  <planetmaker> for its security record most likely :P
21:53:20  <ZehMatt> just discovered recently another xp machine
21:53:24  <ZehMatt> and hotels
21:53:33  <ZehMatt> i could see VLC play in the elevator
21:53:34  <planetmaker> XP... look for ATMs and you likely find it
21:53:37  <ZehMatt> they forgot to fullscreen it
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21:55:46  <andythenorth> IE use is up to 99% on our 2018 stats
21:55:52  <frosch123> did edge surpass ie meanwhile?
21:56:05  <andythenorth> nope
21:56:09  <andythenorth> absolutely not
21:56:15  <andythenorth> Edge remains a turkey
21:56:17  <Eddi|zuHause> completely unrelated, but recently there was this image going around of a train station (i think brussels?) where they mounted a screen to display an "analog" clock, but they messed up the mounting direction or the screen rotation, so it displayed the completely wrong time
21:56:46  <andythenorth> highest Edge use is 35%
21:56:50  <andythenorth> but mostly it's 0
21:57:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: is that % of unique hits, or views in general?
21:58:02  <andythenorth> spreadsheet doesn't say, but one tracks the other
21:58:13  * andythenorth looks
21:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause> question would be whether the more "heavy" users would have a different distribution
22:00:40  <andythenorth> these are quite skewed stats, because they're for customer admin access, so they reflect organisation browser policy
22:00:42  <Eddi|zuHause> also unrelated: a few days ago i was helping someone make some privacy settings on their browser(s) and i noticed that edge doesn't seem to have a setting for "throw away all cookies on close"
22:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking to myself whether that might be because some weird internal preloading thing makes edge never actually close anyway
22:03:00  <andythenorth> is it bad that most Horse train names begin with S?
22:03:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but i didn't want to descend into conspiracy theory levels, so i didn't check up on that
22:03:37  <andythenorth> @calc 11/60
22:03:37  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.183333333333
22:03:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: as opposed to M or F like normal language words?
22:03:45  <andythenorth> @calc 12/60
22:03:45  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.2
22:04:02  <andythenorth> wonder what the distribution of S is normally :P
22:04:11  <andythenorth> @calc 26/100
22:04:11  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.26
22:04:18  <andythenorth> oof wrong way
22:04:23  <ZehMatt> how far can this thing go
22:04:24  <andythenorth> @calc 100/26
22:04:24  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 3.84615384615
22:04:36  <andythenorth> @calc 20/3.9
22:04:36  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 5.12820512821
22:05:02  <andythenorth> S is only over-represented by a multiple of 5
22:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's certainly never an equal distribution
22:05:29  <andythenorth> Q is quite hard, scrabble has taught me
22:05:37  <ZehMatt> @calc pi
22:05:37  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: 3.14159265359
22:05:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and first-letter distribution is also different from regular language distribution
22:05:46  <ZehMatt> @calc sin
22:05:46  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
22:05:50  <ZehMatt> @calc sin(1)
22:05:50  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: 0.841470984808
22:05:55  <ZehMatt> fascinating
22:06:18  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc erf(1)
22:06:18  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.84270079295
22:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> uh, wasn't expecting that :p
22:06:31  <andythenorth> I just prefer the name 'Shredder' to 'Tip-top' :P
22:06:35  <andythenorth> dashed names are silly
22:06:48  <ZehMatt> @calc g
22:06:48  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: Error: 'g' is not a defined function.
22:06:53  <ZehMatt> sad
22:07:12  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc erf(99999999999999)
22:07:12  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1
22:07:29  <ZehMatt> @calc G
22:07:29  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: Error: 'g' is not a defined function.
22:07:34  <ZehMatt> still sad
22:07:34  <Eddi|zuHause> so it's definitely the right function
22:07:47  <ZehMatt> can i define new things?
22:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you probably can't put more than one statement into a line
22:08:19  <frosch123> ZehMatt: <- it's archived
22:09:11  <ZehMatt> python, who would have guessed
22:11:00  <dwfreed> limnoria is its replacement
22:11:13  <dwfreed> @version
22:11:14  <DorpsGek> dwfreed: The current (running) version of this Supybot is  The newest version available online is
22:11:19  <dwfreed> ohboy
22:12:24  <frosch123> that is only one release behind the latest :p
22:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> where is it drawing this "latest release" figure from?
22:14:23  <dwfreed> probably a web service
22:14:48  <dwfreed> @plugin version
22:14:48  <DorpsGek> dwfreed: The "version" command is available in the Misc plugin.
22:15:11  <dwfreed>             newest = utils.web.getUrl('')
22:16:48  <frosch123> when will sf become 404?
22:20:21  <dwfreed> one can hope
22:20:53  <dwfreed> microsoft should buy sf and sunset it
22:22:09  <Eddi|zuHause> imagine all the code injection exploit when the registration for sf runs out, and somebody else hijacks all the autommated page views
22:26:25  <andythenorth> that wasn't done already?
22:31:12  <dwfreed> '' was originally registered in 1994
22:31:51  <dwfreed> has a registration date of 1999
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