Log for #openttd on 2nd December 2018:
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02:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause> very descriptive title
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07:46:35  <andythenorth> o/
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08:15:18  <andythenorth> where is V453000 ?
08:30:01  <SpComb> busy finishing up factorio 0.17, I hope. I want to start a new game already
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10:18:56  <Wolf01> Moin
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12:42:07  <frosch123> i wonder why there is drama yet
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12:42:54  <frosch123> i am waiting for 2 days, but forums did not notice anything
12:43:01  <frosch123> * no drama
12:43:27  <LordAro> drama?
12:49:51  <frosch123> <- out of 108 new cargos, i would now classify 36 as bullshit
12:50:39  <frosch123> i tried to sort them into different tables, but my razor is not sharp enough to distinguish not-quite-bs from likely-bs
12:53:43  <frosch123> and that after years of training from V and andy :p
12:55:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd first remove all the ones that have no mentioning of a newgrf that uses them
12:56:38  <frosch123> we won't run out of labels, that is not the issue
12:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's not it. but it clutters the table for no reason
12:57:11  <frosch123> i just wonder whether any vehicle author would ever check that list to pick what they want to support, or whether they stopped that anyway since firs
12:57:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and it is clearly listed at the bottom that usage should be defined
12:58:18  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i definitely can imagine some overly excessive compulsive authors to do that
12:58:38  <Eddi|zuHause> s/excessive/obsessive/
12:58:42  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno what happened there
13:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm tempted to just hit the "undo" button for the last edits...
13:04:23  <frosch123> well, that won't help
13:05:19  <Eddi|zuHause> we should have a separate section for bullshit-fantasy-cargos
13:05:23  <frosch123> T800 is no less stupid than YETI, GEMS is no less stupid than SGBT
13:05:50  <Eddi|zuHause> (which would include some of the YETI stuff)
13:06:00  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i tried that, but my razor was not sharp enough to decide for BOOKS, EELS, COMPUTERS
13:06:48  <frosch123> is distinguishing GEMS/JADE/DIAM less stupid than SGBT/SGCN ?
13:08:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably include the toyland stuff
13:09:06  <frosch123> original cargos are already separate
13:09:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but that would disturb the distinction between original and new cargos
13:09:20  <frosch123> no sortable wiki tables :)
13:14:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so, "realistic new cargos", "unreasonably detailed new cargos" and "fantasy/scifi/fun new cargos"
13:15:48  <frosch123> is deuterium the seconds or the third?
13:16:12  <Eddi|zuHause> third
13:16:27  <frosch123> nuclear waste?
13:16:30  <Eddi|zuHause> third
13:16:40  <frosch123> frogs?
13:16:50  <Eddi|zuHause> first, surely? :p
13:17:08  <frosch123> i did not make it up, it's really on the wiki
13:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i noticed, yes
13:17:38  <Eddi|zuHause> in case the irony marker was not obvious enough: i meant third :)
13:18:06  <frosch123> oxygen?
13:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> third
13:19:05  <frosch123> what's in second?
13:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno yet
13:19:27  <Eddi|zuHause> probably a few of the FIRS ones
13:20:25  <Eddi|zuHause> something like "PORE 	Pyrite Ore" or "QLME 	Quicklime"
13:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause> "CASS 	Cassava"
13:21:54  <Eddi|zuHause> what i would intend this list to be is some sort of "if you're making a train set, you can skip these without upsetting too many people"
13:23:43  <Eddi|zuHause> early heuristic: all the FIRS cargos that are not in one of the "basic" economies
13:23:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (and not in any other set)
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13:37:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "SILK 	Silk 	1220 Piece goods, covered, non pourable"  <-- it doesn't really make any sense to use non-pourable if it's not bulk?
13:37:34  <frosch123> make a nml PR to check for that
13:38:44  <frosch123> <- there are tons of rules, which are not enforced by anyone
13:39:35  <Eddi|zuHause> before i can do nml PRs i would first have to convert eddi-nml to git
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13:41:03  <Wolf01> WTF, I don't even know what are at least 20% of those cargos
13:42:27  <frosch123> deuterium is hydrogen with a bonus neutron
13:42:49  <Wolf01> Yes, ok, but "cassava"?
13:42:51  <Eddi|zuHause> deuterium is most commonly found in "heavy water"
13:42:56  <frosch123> it's used in some types of nuclear reactors
13:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> cassava is a root thingie eaten in some developing countries you've never thought more than 2 minutes of
13:43:23  <Wolf01> Also do we really need a specific cargo for wasabi and tofu?
13:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause> no
13:43:34  <frosch123> Wolf01: when rice is asia, wheat is europe, then cassava is south america
13:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why that goes in the third category
13:43:51  <andythenorth> coom coom
13:44:05  <andythenorth> obiwan
13:44:07  <andythenorth> boom boom
13:44:17  <andythenorth> that's obitwo on my keyboard actually
13:44:28  <Eddi|zuHause> on most keyboards, i imagine
13:44:38  <andythenorth> I should learn to type
13:45:01  <Wolf01> I would start by split that huge table into more tables and put the sortable in it, so one could check if the cargo he wants it's already there by label or by description
13:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause> most of my typos are from offset hands or keypresses not registering, but lately i have developed this habit of making phonetic typos
13:46:04  <andythenorth> oh there are some awesome new cargos?
13:46:13  <frosch123> i do phonetic typos in english all the time
13:47:05  * andythenorth wonders what the Kill Bill cargo does
13:47:17  <Eddi|zuHause> "s/excessive/obsessive/" <-- i would include that in the phonetic category
13:47:22  <andythenorth> eh frosch123 there's a cargo just for you :)
13:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "it sounds somewhat similar, so it got confused"
13:48:22  <Eddi|zuHause> how does one make sortable tables on the wiki?
13:48:30  <frosch123> it needs some add-on
13:48:38  <frosch123> i should also add it to the new ottd wiki
13:48:39  <andythenorth> apart from the "Hidrogen" typo they all look reasonable
13:48:39  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> oh there are some awesome new cargos? <- didn't somebody say 64 were not enough and go for 32k directly?
13:48:53  <Eddi|zuHause> so nothing i can do from my end?
13:48:57  <andythenorth> 'Dinosaur" is going to be interesting
13:49:19  <frosch123> same as YETI :)
13:50:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still tending to remove the original/new distinction, and put all the toyland-only cargos in the fantasy category
13:50:52  <frosch123> original/new was important at some point
13:51:06  <frosch123> i forgot why, and whether that reason vanished with grfv8
13:51:21  <andythenorth> afaict, they're all just cargos :P
13:51:36  <Eddi|zuHause> we can make "original" a column like "ecs" "firs" "yeti"
13:51:44  <frosch123> sounds reasonable
13:51:47  <andythenorth> column for known uses
13:51:50  <andythenorth> sort
13:51:52  <andythenorth> profite
13:51:57  <andythenorth> -e
13:52:04  * andythenorth coffee :|
13:52:35  <Eddi|zuHause> wiki code is not optimal for shuffling table entries around
13:52:44  <andythenorth> no
13:52:45  <frosch123> profite is some carbon-bases material?
13:52:46  <andythenorth> it's horrid :)
13:52:54  <andythenorth> is it?
13:52:58  <andythenorth> might give me ideas
13:53:06  <andythenorth> did we patch nml for 16-in-out cargos yet?
13:53:13  <andythenorth> I'm sure nielsm has done 99% of it
13:53:18  <nielsm> profiteroles?
13:53:28  <andythenorth> I think we only have to choose the colour for the bikeshed now
13:53:34  <andythenorth> the rest all looked done to me
13:53:42  <andythenorth> there was a branch and stuff
13:53:50  <andythenorth> then I can make the chemistry economy
13:53:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that definitely sounds like some material used in nanotech :)
13:54:03  <nielsm> I'm not seeing CAKE on the cargo types list
13:54:08  <andythenorth> the chemistry economy...will greatly improve the wiki :)
13:54:17  <Eddi|zuHause> fullerenes and profiteroles :)
13:54:19  <andythenorth> nielsm: I added it to FIRS Town economy, but then I deleted the whole idea
13:54:27  <andythenorth> towns are hard to provide industries in reliably
13:54:44  <andythenorth> flour + sugar + dairy products -> bakery -> cake shop
13:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: do you have a list of firs cargos per economy?
13:54:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: as you asked...
13:55:03  <andythenorth> releases, or nightlies? :P
13:55:07  <andythenorth> probably releases is safer
13:55:21  <andythenorth>
13:55:33  <andythenorth> do you want json dump :P
13:55:36  <andythenorth> then you could script it
13:55:45  <andythenorth> and never touch wiki formatting ever again
13:55:50  <frosch123> <- there is also a transposed view
13:56:18  <Eddi|zuHause> aye, that seems more helpful
13:56:24  <andythenorth> also for those who worry about properties
13:56:51  * andythenorth ponders converting FIRS to yaml
13:56:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't need the properties, but the idea above was to separate the "basic" cargos from the others
13:59:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: is sake a wine, bear, cider or spirit?
13:59:58  <nielsm> production method wise it's closest to beer
14:00:56  <Eddi|zuHause> main distinction between alcohols is whether it's fermented or distilled
14:02:22  <Eddi|zuHause> after that, distinctions may include the source materials, or the storage materials, or the time needed, or whatever...
14:02:25  <andythenorth> sake is nice
14:02:37  <andythenorth> but not in large quantities
14:04:08  <andythenorth> ha ha
14:04:12  <frosch123> does that make it a wine?
14:04:23  <andythenorth> I forgot that some FIRS economies are designed to make the graphviz charts look good
14:04:33  <nielsm> it's a culinary wine, technical beer
14:04:34  <nielsm> :P
14:04:36  <andythenorth> it's important to have valid gameplay goals :P
14:04:56  <andythenorth> oh dear
14:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> "Sake is a beverage fermented from rice, which is a grain. This would make it more of a beer than a wine. Yet, sake is not carbonated, and flavor-wise is closer to wine than beer, although it is indeed uniquely different from wine."
14:05:05  <Eddi|zuHause> google on "is sake wine or beer"
14:05:15  <andythenorth> in the uk it's usually explained as 'rice win'
14:05:29  <andythenorth> oh that's where the extra 'e' came from earlier
14:05:40  <andythenorth> they move around temporally sometimes
14:05:44  <Eddi|zuHause> rincewind
14:05:49  <andythenorth> eventually my typing nets out to 'accurate'
14:05:57  <andythenorth> turtles all the way down Eddi|zuHause
14:06:31  <andythenorth> I went sake tasting this year, I'm not sure I believe the hype, but we were told it's closest to a vodka or gin
14:07:06  <andythenorth> but it's femented not distilled, so eh
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14:11:19  <andythenorth> hmm bundles doesn't build branches
14:13:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm assuming it needs a special setting to do that
14:19:03  <andythenorth> 'hg up [branch name]' in the build :P
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14:32:41  * andythenorth experiments 
14:32:49  <andythenorth> all steam trains currently looking like
14:33:08  <andythenorth> 1CC upper, 2CC frame
14:33:19  <andythenorth> this seems to work as an alternate
14:33:25  <andythenorth> also
14:33:34  <andythenorth> comments?
14:35:44  <frosch123> if you have something resembling vehicle generations, you can alternate the colour schema
14:36:17  <frosch123> or you can make them mostlyl the same, and only swap in random places where vehicles look similar
14:38:53  <andythenorth> the 'role' column keys the generations
14:39:11  <andythenorth> the diesel and electric trains do ok for variety vs. consistency
14:39:57  <andythenorth> pikka and dan do a lot of black freight engines, which is ok, but I prefer lots of CC
14:42:12  <frosch123> black does not have enough shades
14:42:17  <frosch123> and dark grey is too weird
14:42:30  <frosch123> i am no fan of the black pikka engines
14:45:52  <andythenorth> what about the black boiler on the Haar?
14:47:36  <frosch123> looks good
14:47:38  <andythenorth> ok
14:47:44  * andythenorth wasn't sure, but it seems to work
14:47:55  <andythenorth> I could invert 1CC / 2CC for some engines,
14:48:03  <frosch123> lemon is also fine, as long as not every engine is like that
14:49:53  <andythenorth> more CC needed
14:55:09  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe have the distinction between light/heavy engines?
14:56:32  <Eddi|zuHause> like, the Haar looks a bit odd in that list
14:57:03  <andythenorth> would it look odd if the two above it had black boilers?
14:57:23  <andythenorth> I keep trying 1CC/2CC stripes, but they look awful :)
14:57:34  <frosch123> i think it's a good thing if some engines look different :p
14:58:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's a good thing if on first glance you can see whether it's a branch, light or heavy engine
14:58:48  <andythenorth> I considered that
14:58:58  <andythenorth> but then it's hard to distinguish between generations
14:59:13  <andythenorth> and there aren't actually enough pixels to change the shape much
14:59:20  <andythenorth> so sometimes livery is the only way
15:06:27  <andythenorth> 2CC big pax engine? o_O
15:06:55  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: how did your wiki edits progress?
15:07:05  * andythenorth not actually convinced by the 2CC engine
15:07:16  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i won't finish today, i think
15:07:24  <frosch123> so, never :)
15:07:30  <Eddi|zuHause> pretty much :)
15:11:31  <andythenorth> so many variations :P
15:11:35  <andythenorth> pixels are cheap
15:18:12  <andythenorth> add grey accent colour? o_O
15:20:32  <andythenorth> really?
15:20:39  <frosch123> i would expect that most grey do not work with most company colors
15:21:03  <frosch123> rainbow slug?
15:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that thing looks horrible
15:24:19  <andythenorth> pretty grim eh
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15:44:38  <andythenorth> alt-click in depot to invert 1CC / 2CC automatically? o_O
15:45:10  <Eddi|zuHause> no
15:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> alt+click is special on linuxes
15:46:14  <andythenorth> error: not enough modifiers
15:46:24  <frosch123> how about LMB+RMB+wheel?
15:47:19  <Wolf01> MB4, MB5 could be fine, if mouse has more buttons :P
15:47:31  <frosch123> food pedals?
15:47:34  <frosch123> *t
15:47:41  <andythenorth> how about scrolling over the vehicle flicks through liveries?
15:47:48  <andythenorth> have to be super accurate
15:48:05  <andythenorth> like one of those google maps frames in web pages that captures scroll :P
15:50:03  <frosch123> do eye-trackers report about blinking?
15:50:09  <frosch123> livery could change when you blink
15:50:21  <andythenorth> blink and you'll miss it
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16:41:31  <andythenorth> this livery appears to work (might need force-refresh, my browser cached the png)
16:43:57  <frosch123> it's the blue thing in the middle, that's new?
16:44:24  <andythenorth> the 2CC stripe on the tender
16:45:20  <andythenorth> meh, blue-grey boiler might work, but those colours aren't used anywhere else in Horse
16:45:59  <andythenorth> oh they're on the roof of this metro, that's a bug :P file:///Users/andy2/Documents/OTTD_graphics/Iron_Horse/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html#serpentine
16:46:09  <andythenorth>
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17:10:50  * andythenorth ponders
17:11:03  <andythenorth> could I inject new realsprites directly into a running newgrf?
17:11:11  <andythenorth> new / replacement /s
17:11:20  <andythenorth> presumably it's just a string of bytes?
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17:46:09  <nielsm> you mean update graphics in a running game without a full reload?
17:47:52  <frosch123> or: load sprite from png and show it in viewport
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18:29:10  <andythenorth> those yes
18:29:30  <andythenorth> it would speed up newgrf dev remarkably :P
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19:24:39  <snail_UES_> hi guys… I just released my set, but I’m not following GPL (my set is all rights reserved)
19:24:44  <snail_UES_> I can’t put it on bananas, right?
19:25:32  <frosch123> bananas has only one requirement: you cannot unrelease stuff
19:26:30  <frosch123> stuff is there to stay for people wanting to load old savegames
19:27:02  <snail_UES_> ah I see… for some reason I thought it’d be for stuff in GPL license only
19:27:23  <frosch123> <- check all the places where it says "grant"
19:27:45  <snail_UES_> great, I’ll have a look at it
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19:40:27  <andythenorth> it's done then snail_UES_ ? :)
19:42:10  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: yes… at least until you release a zillion more cargoes in the next FIRS :D
19:45:39  <andythenorth> congrats ;)
19:46:50  <snail_UES_> thanks :)
19:47:14  <snail_UES_> I already got some bug reports :D I guess the real fun starts now...
19:51:44  <andythenorth> it's kind of weird doing 1.0 of a newgrf
19:51:57  <andythenorth> after a long time working on it
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20:08:35  <snail_UES_> haha yes, I’ve been working on this thing for 10+ years
20:22:10  <andythenorth> frosch123: liveries - too much difference?
20:22:54  <andythenorth> there are only 3 engines in 1870 :P
20:24:21  <andythenorth> definitely looks more 'freight'
20:24:28  <andythenorth> but it's not subtle :P
20:26:43  <frosch123> they are snow covered :p
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20:34:23  <snail_UES_> maybe the 4-2-2’s driving wheel could be even… “bigger”? did you draw it from a technical schema?
20:35:48  <andythenorth> it could go 1px taller
20:35:58  <andythenorth> it will be quite cartoon
20:36:25  <andythenorth> but irl they're very tall
20:37:34  <andythenorth> black works, but is meh
20:37:35  <andythenorth>
20:37:38  <andythenorth>
20:48:05  <andythenorth> don't like the black :P
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21:39:23  <andythenorth> o_O ?
21:47:50  <Wolf01> They look like are made of sugar
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21:53:06  <andythenorth> is that good or bad? :P
21:55:07  <Wolf01> Dunno, they are nice
21:55:28  <andythenorth> I am not convinced by the 2CC Spinner
21:55:32  <andythenorth> playing a test game
21:55:57  <andythenorth> when there are only 3 trains, they don't need to look very different imho
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