Log for #openttd on 19th May 2019:
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00:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> usually the low sides can be flipped so it's completely flat
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00:27:31  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7587: Crash on loading saved game from #1131
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04:30:55  <Corns[m]> Patch idea: during world gen,  roads connect towns, like in simutrans
04:34:24  <Corns[m]> Q: which files are responsible for handling world gen?
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07:03:31  <andythenorth> HELLO
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08:19:22  * andythenorth wonders about vehicles setting a multiplier to prop 12
08:19:32  <andythenorth> (cargo prop 12)
08:19:34  <andythenorth> price factor
08:19:57  <andythenorth> maybe that has horrible performance though
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09:15:43  <andythenorth> hmm
09:16:10  <andythenorth> I love seeing newgrfs working in OpenTTD :D
09:16:34  <andythenorth> I know I complain a lot, but making things for OpenTTD is really fun
09:17:56  <andythenorth> BBL
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10:10:15  <andythenorth_> maybe a compile time flag to drop all cargo sprites etc in Horse?
10:10:43  <andythenorth_> might save 10 seconds or so
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10:31:51  <andythenorth_> split Horse into separate grfs?
10:32:09  <andythenorth_> engines grf, wagons grf, etc
10:36:47  <frosch123> debug and release builds?
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10:39:25  <Wolf01> o/
10:43:03  <andythenorth_> frosch maybe yes
10:43:30  <andythenorth_> shame we can’t nest grfs
10:45:25  <andythenorth_> hmm
10:45:36  * andythenorth_ has more ideas
10:48:33  <andythenorth_> diff the nml, use some cached nfo & grfcodec if the nml is unchanged
10:49:31  <frosch123> grfcoded has no spritecache
10:49:43  <frosch123> so, encoding will be slower
10:49:58  <frosch123> you are probably better off to generate multiple nml and grf files
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10:53:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ... didn't he already have provisions for "only make one vehicle"?
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11:07:59  <andythenorth> frosch123: the grfcodec encode of Horse is about 3 seconds
11:08:21  <andythenorth> although that's based on a -d decode, with only 9 spritesheets
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11:09:15  <Corns[m]> Grfs can have dependencies, right?
11:11:24  <andythenorth> kinda
11:12:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: you can also disable cropping
11:12:56  <frosch123> but with same settings, nml encoding should not be slower than grfcodec
11:13:46  <andythenorth> the nmlc encoding is now fast, because I no longer throw away the sprite cache
11:13:55  <andythenorth> but the parse and preprocessing steps are slow
11:14:28  <andythenorth> the specific case I think will be faster with grfcode is changes to only realsprites
11:15:15  * andythenorth tries to remember how to grfcodec :P
11:17:28  <andythenorth> 4s or so for grfcodec
11:17:45  <andythenorth> it's expecting a 'sprites' path though, so I'd have to refactor the generated directory structure
11:18:00  <andythenorth> comparison
11:18:17  <andythenorth> iron-horse.nml -> nmlc -> grf ~30s average
11:18:29  <andythenorth> iron-horse.nfo -> grfcodec -> grf 5s average
11:19:05  <andythenorth> so if iron-horse.nml diffs as unchanged, I might as well branch to grfcodec
11:19:18  <Eddi|zuHause> if you were using makefile, inserting grfcodec would be quite simple
11:19:23  <andythenorth> I am
11:19:56  <Eddi|zuHause> add switch to nmlc to generate nfo instead of grf
11:20:04  <andythenorth> trying to work out the overhead
11:20:14  <Eddi|zuHause> add entry to make grf from nfo via grfcodec
11:20:19  <andythenorth> in cases where the nml file *has* changed, this adds a 5 second overhead to every compile
11:20:30  <Eddi|zuHause> remove sprites as dependency from the nmlc stage, and add them to the grfcodec stage
11:20:41  <andythenorth> so working with e.g. vehicle properties will be much slower
11:20:49  <andythenorth> but drawing pixels will be much faster
11:21:15  <Eddi|zuHause> overhead will be less than that
11:21:24  <Eddi|zuHause> because nmlc does not process sprites anymore
11:21:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so should be quicker
11:22:13  <andythenorth> I'm not convinced by that yet
11:22:21  <andythenorth> let's see
11:24:36  <andythenorth> ok it's marginal
11:24:49  <andythenorth> averaging 33 seconds for nmlc -> grf
11:24:56  <andythenorth> averaging 31 seconds for nmlc -> nfo
11:25:05  <andythenorth> fully primed nml cache
11:25:48  <andythenorth> 25s gain for changes that only touch realsprites, vs. 2s loss in cases where props etc have changed
11:31:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: presuming nmlc builds some tree in memory, is there any mileage in pickling that, and passing it back to nmlc if they nml is unchanged?
11:31:59  <andythenorth> pickle is slow, but eh
11:35:27  <frosch123> i have some old numbers, when i tried
11:35:39  <frosch123> writing the cache is +50% to parsing time
11:35:56  <frosch123> readnig the cache is 20% of parsing time
11:36:21  <frosch123> cache file size is 7x to 10x the nml source size
11:38:20  <andythenorth> tradeoff doesn't look winning
11:38:25  <frosch123> overall you needed to compile 5 times with valid cache to make up the time for creating the cache
11:42:50  <andythenorth> ok thanks :)
11:51:49  <andythenorth> dropping the cargo graphics
11:52:13  <andythenorth> cuts the nmlc time from about 30 seconds to about 10 seconds
11:52:25  <andythenorth> and the grfcodec time from about 5s to 0.5s
12:01:38  <andythenorth> so I can maybe knock up to 40s off a 70s compile
12:02:46  * andythenorth tries
12:07:04  <andythenorth> sys.argv is a bit limited eh
12:07:13  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
12:09:11  <_dp_> hi, what is the max amount of layouts industry can have? 256?
12:11:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: optional args aren't trivial with sys.argv afaict
12:11:22  <andythenorth> doesn't matter, it works
12:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you'd usually use a configparser?
12:11:42  <andythenorth> yes
12:11:45  <andythenorth> I'm not
12:12:01  <andythenorth> what I have is really rudimentary
12:12:10  <Eddi|zuHause> also, if you're using make, then maybe env would be better than argv?
12:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause> make SKIP_CARGO=true
12:13:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and then in python check whether env contains SKIP_CARGO?
12:13:41  <andythenorth> that might be better
12:13:51  <andythenorth> I'll make it work, and then link to the comimt
12:13:53  <andythenorth> commit *
12:14:01  <andythenorth> the args have been too crude for years
12:19:48  <andythenorth> well that saves about 55% in cases where it can be used
12:20:27  <andythenorth>
12:21:00  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ that includes the crap argv parsing I'm doing
12:21:19  <_dp_> there is argparse for any real applications
12:21:20  <andythenorth> it was 'good enough' about 8 years ago :P
12:21:26  <_dp_> argv is just for debugging
12:22:02  <andythenorth> might be better to switch to env, I never figured out how to pass args when running a specific python script
12:22:11  <andythenorth> dunno
12:22:21  * andythenorth happy to take pull requests :P
12:23:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't done configparser in a while
12:24:20  <andythenorth> now let's combine that with grfcodec
12:24:29  * andythenorth will inevitably have make questions :P
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12:55:29  <Eddi|zuHause> so i "bought" this thing: anyone know what to do with it?
12:56:21  <nakki> reading the reviews, apparently the thing they're giving away for free now isn't the full license
12:57:01  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: make a game!
12:58:13  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: L81 or so, nmlc runs always, how do I stop that? :)
12:58:14  <andythenorth>
12:58:30  <andythenorth> oh that's the wrong rev, silly redmine
12:58:58  <andythenorth> or so
12:59:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: remove "$(GRAPHICS_DIR)", put that on the grfcodec part?
13:00:48  <andythenorth> I gave you the wrong url the first time
13:00:50  <andythenorth> sorry :P
13:00:55  <Eddi|zuHause> still same
13:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> remove it from the nmlc part
13:01:10  <Eddi|zuHause> have it only on the grfcodec part
13:01:21  <andythenorth> oh yes
13:01:23  <andythenorth> ok
13:01:24  <andythenorth> thanks
13:02:08  <andythenorth> hmm that doesn't work yet
13:02:30  <andythenorth> probably the docs
13:03:07  <Eddi|zuHause> remove the docs there as well
13:03:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that dependency seems to be nonsense
13:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or, backwards
13:05:56  <andythenorth> wouldn't surprise me
13:06:18  <andythenorth> anyway, that's a 10 second compile if I'm only changing sprites, and I drop all cargo sprites
13:06:45  <andythenorth> much better payoff than me trying to rewrite nmlc myself :(
13:07:57  <andythenorth> oof
13:08:06  <andythenorth> now the docs render after the nml
13:08:12  * andythenorth will come back to that
13:08:45  <andythenorth> 13 seconds if the cargo sprites are enabled
13:09:23  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so the docs...what should I be doing?
13:09:30  <andythenorth> I need the docs built early in the compile
13:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
13:09:51  <Eddi|zuHause> why would anything depend on the docs?
13:10:00  <andythenorth> because the compile is so slow that I can often open the docs, check the result, and ctrl-c the compile if the result is bad
13:10:29  <andythenorth> but if the result is good, I let the compile continue
13:10:55  <Eddi|zuHause> if they're independent tasks, make -j12 should figure it out
13:13:16  <andythenorth> both the docs and the grf are co-dependent on the graphics,
13:13:18  <andythenorth> in series
13:13:26  <andythenorth> but docs are parallel to grf
13:13:35  <andythenorth> how do I express that in make rules
13:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> if they're dependent, you put it in the dependency, if they're not, you leave it out
13:17:57  <andythenorth> wait, so I already have 'default: html_docs grf'
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13:19:43  <andythenorth> hmm doesn't trigger if graphics change
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13:20:31  <andythenorth> I don't hate make, I just don't understand it
13:24:48  <andythenorth> what's the .PHONY doing in this case?
13:25:07  <andythenorth>
13:38:51  <arikover> andythenorth: Hello. Sorry to bother again, I'm translating Iron Horse and need some insights on some new freight cars.
13:38:55  <andythenorth> yup
13:39:18  <andythenorth> tell me, I'll find pictures
13:39:24  <arikover> andythenorth: So: What is the difference between a plate car and a flatcar?
13:40:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I hear you should be using Meson now :P
13:40:23  <arikover> andythenorth: Someone(s) already found pictures for this one yesterday, but I don't understand exactly the difference: are the sides not removable on the plate cars?
13:40:51  <andythenorth> some are, some aren't
13:41:02  <andythenorth> I considered using 'low-side open car'
13:41:25  <andythenorth>
13:41:41  <andythenorth> 'plate car' is a very specific UK use, not used anywhere else I could find
13:42:18  <arikover> andythenorth: "Low-side open car" <- maybe I could translate that instead? Yeah, I couldn't find any references of plate cars outside UK.
13:42:50  <andythenorth> Europe calls them flat wagons, because the sides are removable
13:42:56  <andythenorth> and the US doesn't seem to have them
13:44:46  <arikover> I could find something approaching, like "low-side open car" then. OK.
13:45:03  <arikover> andythenorth: ...and the second one: what is the difference between an aggregate hopper and a standard hopper?
13:45:22  <andythenorth> good question
13:45:46  <andythenorth> I've turned aggregate hoppers off in current Iron Horse
13:45:53  <arikover> andythenorth: Is it supposed to transport special cargo (like not-coal)?
13:45:54  <andythenorth> I'm not convinced about the names
13:46:45  <arikover> andythenorth: But you already drew the sprites?
13:46:52  <andythenorth> yeah, but I've removed them
13:47:14  <andythenorth> they're just graphical options, but the names are confusing
13:47:48  <andythenorth> I want to put them back
13:47:54  <andythenorth> but I don't know how to name them
13:48:35  <arikover> andythenorth: Do you have any photos I could base myself on?
13:48:59  <andythenorth> hopper
13:49:25  <andythenorth> aggregate hopper
13:49:38  <andythenorth> one type is silver, and used primarily for coal
13:49:48  <andythenorth> the other type is company colour, and used primarily for stone, sand etc
13:50:22  <andythenorth> there are other differences in real life, but too boring to feature in game
13:51:10  <arikover> What are they? (it could maybe help for the translation)
13:51:35  <FLHerne> arikover: From a real-life perspective, rock aggregates and ores are /much/ denser than coal
13:52:46  <FLHerne> So a coal hopper filled to the brim with rock would be *far* too heavy
13:53:02  <andythenorth> also the doors on coal hoppers are open / closed
13:53:05  <andythenorth> they flood unload
13:53:22  <andythenorth> the doors on agg hoppers have variable opening, for controlled rate
13:53:56  <FLHerne> In the UK, since coal traffic fell off a cliff several companies have been converting coal hoppers to carry aggregate by essentially cutting out 1/3 of the length
13:56:24  <FLHerne> See
13:57:56  <andythenorth> in the US
13:57:59  <andythenorth> aggregate
13:58:06  <andythenorth> coal
13:59:51  <arikover> FLHerne andythenorth: So the aggregate hopper are designed to carry denser loads (shorter design), and have a more subtle unloading process (in a -rough- nutshell)?
14:00:07  <andythenorth> yup
14:00:10  <FLHerne> Yes
14:00:32  <arikover> Okay. Thank you very much for your answsers!
14:00:47  <andythenorth> if you come up with a name let me know :P
14:01:09  <andythenorth> I have turned them off until I'm satisfied with the name
14:01:29  <FLHerne> I don't see what's wrong with "aggregate hopper" tbh
14:01:36  <andythenorth> or maybe I should name 'hopper' as 'coal hopper' even though it refits other things
14:01:37  <andythenorth> dunno
14:01:38  <FLHerne> They're hoppers for aggregate
14:01:52  <andythenorth> they do refit coal and stuff, because no point limiting gameplay
14:02:00  <FLHerne> Oh, fun
14:02:01  <andythenorth> but they default to stone etc if present in the game
14:06:32  <andythenorth> hmm
14:06:40  <andythenorth> I absolutely don't understand make
14:07:49  <andythenorth>
14:08:10  <andythenorth> I need to trigger rebuilding the docs if any .png files in src have changed
14:08:22  <andythenorth> or if anything has changed in generated/graphics
14:08:56  <andythenorth> in fact the .png files are irrelevant, generated/graphics would catch the case
14:09:04  <andythenorth> but it stubbornly does not work
14:11:54  <andythenorth> html_docs is in the default target
14:12:02  <andythenorth> it has $(GRAPHICS_DIR) as a dept
14:12:04  <andythenorth> dep *
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14:33:15  <nielsm> so did anything interesting happen over the weekend?
14:39:15  <arikover> FLHerne andythenorth: Heavy Load Hopper? But Aggregate Hopper is perfectly fine. I just wanted to know the difference for the translation.
14:43:17  <arikover> andythenorth: Maybe hoppers' capacity for coal could be a bit lower compared to other aggregates, as it has a lower density? But that would be "realistic", and not really fun...
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15:11:21  <juzza1> andythenorth: if i do "touch generated/graphics" and then make, it rebuilds the docs
15:12:05  <juzza1> changing a png does not update the directory timestamp though, so i guess you need the actual generated pngs as dependency as well?
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15:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how does the stuff in generated/graphics get created?
15:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you might want to also generate a .dep file
15:37:24  <Eddi|zuHause> ... it takes 4 more minutes to update my iron horse checkout
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15:43:54  <andythenorth> the stuff in generated/graphics is created by
15:44:15  <andythenorth> the GRAPHICS_DIR target appears to pick up all the deps reliably
15:45:16  <andythenorth> I could learn about the nmlc -M option for deps, but it seems to require learning something for no benefit :P
15:49:27  <andythenorth> wait wat
15:49:34  <andythenorth> 'make' causes the docs to build
15:49:37  <andythenorth> 'make install' does not
15:50:19  <andythenorth> ok
15:50:34  <andythenorth> I just paste $(HTML_DOCS) in even more places
15:51:23  <andythenorth> pasting things to more places seems to be how make works
15:52:41  <peter1138> En-route pork pies, eh?
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15:58:57  <LordAro> peter1138: just the minisnack ones i brought with me
16:02:12  <peter1138> I didn't have any energy or food enroute today, but I was by myself again.
16:02:50  <peter1138> In which case I slow down without noticing/causing others to wait.
16:14:48  <andythenorth> so many variants :P
16:25:45  <andythenorth> lol 13 second Horse compiles
16:25:53  * andythenorth will stop moaning for a bit 
16:26:02  <andythenorth> this is happy emoji time
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16:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i see what you think is right/wrong
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16:37:30  <andythenorth>
16:37:48  <andythenorth> I'm unfortunately throwing away the benefit of the nmlc spritecache
16:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause> make a grfcodec spritecache
16:38:12  <andythenorth> but I have implicit and explicit options for compiles to go faster in common cases
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16:39:23  <andythenorth> this addresses the most boring case, which is waiting 1m to see a few pixels difference in game
16:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> for some reason my youtube suggestions are full of (old) ESC content
16:39:38  <andythenorth> and the second most boring case, which is tweaking costs etc
16:39:46  <andythenorth> oof the power of suggestion
16:39:52  * andythenorth now watches YT
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16:40:31  <Eddi|zuHause> not the new stuff, stuff like "watch this song from 1975"
16:47:41  * andythenorth wonders about teaching nmlc that the input .nml hasn't changed
16:47:59  <andythenorth> if it made a .nml.bak file at the end of the compile, it could compare on next run
16:48:54  <andythenorth> nah
16:48:56  <andythenorth> won't work
16:49:00  <andythenorth> onwards :D
16:54:23  <Eddi|zuHause> same way as with the graphics, you output to a file, and if cmp says no differences, you leave the .nml untouched, otherwise overwrite it
16:55:09  <Eddi|zuHause> make will then recognize that the file date was not changed, and skip some further processing
16:55:24  <Eddi|zuHause> (assumes proper dependencies)
16:55:42  <andythenorth> I was thinking about a PR for actual nmlc
16:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:55:50  <andythenorth> but it won't have any structure to encode
16:55:53  <andythenorth> won't work
16:56:07  <Eddi|zuHause> this is pure makefile stuff
16:56:19  <andythenorth> yes, I have that working
16:56:27  <andythenorth> that's why I wondered if it can be generalised :P
16:56:40  <andythenorth> bundle grfcodec with nmlc? :P
16:56:58  <Eddi|zuHause> if you go on, you land on my ignore list
16:57:28  <andythenorth> I wasn't trolling that one :P
16:57:57  <andythenorth> grfcodec is a pretty good tool
16:59:09  <andythenorth> some of the suggestions for nml speed have revolved around 'rewrite in C++'
16:59:40  <andythenorth> meanwhile frosch has tested disk caching the nmlc tree structure and it's a poor tradeoff
16:59:55  <andythenorth> but nfo is a perfect intermediate format, and we already have the encoder
17:00:20  <andythenorth> and it's very very fast
17:00:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but both are fine standalone tools, there is no need to "bundle" them
17:05:54  <andythenorth> people who need the nmlc.exe won't be able to get grfcodec?
17:05:55  <andythenorth> dunno
17:06:00  <andythenorth> I have no idea actually
17:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you're just making compiling and distributing more complicated for no benefit
17:07:30  <Eddi|zuHause> people who can install nmlc.exe can also install grfcodec.exe
17:07:41  <andythenorth> ok so it would just be a dep
17:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> grfcodec is not a dep of nmlc
17:08:09  <andythenorth> I know
17:08:15  <andythenorth> nvm
17:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> your makefile just has two deps
17:08:34  <andythenorth> I just find it depressing that the general case doesn't get improved
17:08:41  <andythenorth> I do things to make my compiles faster
17:08:45  <andythenorth> but nobody else benefits
17:08:56  <andythenorth> it always comes back to 'rewrite nmlc properly'
17:09:05  <andythenorth> but there's nobody even maintaining the docs right now
17:09:08  <andythenorth> so that's not gonna happen
17:10:33  <andythenorth> I just wondered how many lines it would be to add an arg, so that grfcodec is the encoder
17:10:49  <andythenorth> and have nmlc do a diff on the .nml file before parsing
17:11:14  <andythenorth> it was surprisingly quick to do for me in my compile, and I wish I'd thought of it before :P
17:11:46  <andythenorth> python subprocess is a bit of a faff though
17:19:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, that is out of scope for a compile tool
17:21:53  <andythenorth> oh well
17:21:58  <andythenorth> I'll just keep solving my own problems then
17:22:23  <andythenorth> that might be fine, nobody else seems to have nmlc problems
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19:31:02  <andythenorth> was it lunch?
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19:42:25  <peter1138> not yet
19:45:34  <andythenorth> did you finish Doom yet?
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20:08:06  <peter1138> Which Doom? I've been playing WADs for Doom II, and also the 2016 remake.
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20:17:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i had lunch
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20:20:57  <frosch123> you should be amout done with the late dinner, and prepare for the midnight snack
20:21:02  <frosch123> *about
20:31:43  * andythenorth wonders if newgrf vehicles could modify cargo price factor
20:31:55  * andythenorth assumes that might have performance issues
20:32:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the industry set can define custom price calculation, afair
20:34:33  <andythenorth> hmm
20:34:53  <andythenorth> there is a cb for custom profit yes
20:35:07  <andythenorth> I am a bit wary of diverging too far from the cargo payment graphs
20:35:47  <andythenorth> I did try to make vehicle aging period 'work' on small maps by setting aggressive t1, t2 decay periods on some cargos
20:36:08  <andythenorth> but it makes very little difference until about 128 tiles (subject to vehicle speed)
20:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems like the intended purpose
20:38:26  <andythenorth> I tested quite a few things, but concluded that 'make cargo age periods work' isn't going in Horse 2.0.0
20:38:51  <andythenorth> obvs. they do work, just Horse was designed against a misunderstanding of them
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