Log for #openttd on 4th June 2019:
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02:47:52  <Corns[m]> can somebody explain the mechanics of orthogonal/diagonal movement to me? like, how the N/S/E/W movement is faster than x/y movement
03:13:33  <Corns[m]> actually nvm i found a thread on ttd forums
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03:54:18  <Eddi|zuHause> the short version: in a grid, the diagonal steps are larger, and the way the game tries to combat this with fewer number of steps is probably incorrect, but nobody really is inclined to touch it
03:55:36  <Corns[m]> hehe
03:55:40  <Corns[m]> yeah so it's like
03:55:57  <Corns[m]> x/y lengths are 192 steps
03:56:04  <Corns[m]> diagonals are 128 steps
03:56:08  <Corns[m]> right?
03:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds wrong
03:57:58  <Corns[m]> like a single diagonal rail piece is 128 steps
03:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> no
03:58:42  <Corns[m]> @Rubidium's response to this thread
03:58:55  <Eddi|zuHause> a tile is subdivided in a 16x16 grid, each of these marks a "step" (visual movement of a vehicle), and then there are "substeps"
03:59:04  <Corns[m]> yeah the sub steps thing
03:59:39  <Corns[m]> there's 192 for x/y DiagDirection movement between tiles?
03:59:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so a x/y trackbit has 16*256 substeps
04:00:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and a diagonal trackbit has 8*192 substeps
04:00:07  <Corns[m]> oh 16*256?
04:00:20  <Corns[m]> diagonal as in N/S/E/W?
04:00:26  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
04:00:31  <Corns[m]> ah ic
04:01:01  <Eddi|zuHause> diagonal relative to the map grid, not the screen
04:01:08  <Corns[m]> yeah
04:01:35  <Corns[m]> i.e. the HL/HU/VL/VR trackbits
04:01:51  <Corns[m]> aight sweet thanks :)
04:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> this is all from memory, the numbers might be wrong
04:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> also related: a train actually makes two progress calculations per tick, so a train travelling at speed 128 makes 256 substeps
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04:06:32  <Corns[m]> Ok i see :)
04:07:41  <Corns[m]> Thats weird, i always thought it was the other way around
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04:27:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the main purpose of that is to achieve higher top speeds, while still fitting the speed units into one byte. that kind of memory optimization was important in the 90s but feels a bit outdated now
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05:32:05  <Corns[m]> yeah i wonder if openttd's game mechanics could conceptually be refactored to be more efficient
05:32:15  <Corns[m]> eg. async render and simulation
05:35:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i suggested that they called me crazy
05:35:34  <Corns[m]> probably too much work :) :) :)
05:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> which i probably am, but that's besides the point :p
05:35:47  <Corns[m]> HAHA
05:35:51  <Corns[m]> async render would be nice
05:51:08  <peter1139> It could be more efficient, but that wouldn't be.
06:08:28  <Eddi|zuHause> they had one problem, so they added multithreading. then they had -2- -4- -8- 16 problems
06:13:43  <juzza1> isn't the simulation already async? or what does this mean:
06:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the drawing is decoupled from the rendering, but the rendering isn't decoupled from the simulation
06:23:42  <peter1139> You'd need to duplicate a lot of state...
06:24:27  <Eddi|zuHause> "drawing" means "put the pixels on the screen", and "rendering" means "prepare the pixels that should be displayed"
06:24:37  <Eddi|zuHause> (grossly simplified)
06:25:09  <Eddi|zuHause> this preparation step needs to know the game state, and the simulation changes the game state
06:25:56  <Eddi|zuHause> so in order for the simulation to run while the preparation runs in parallel, they need to operate on separate copies of the game state, which are synchronized inbetween
06:27:02  <Eddi|zuHause> which potentially needs a 3rd copy, so it doesn't have to wait for both the simulation and the preparation to be idle at the same time to interrupt them for synchronizing
06:27:03  <peter1139> Rendering is decoupled, but has to happen between simulation runs.
06:27:40  <peter1139> Part of the "wow, fast foward is really fast now" thing is that rendering is no longer necessarily done for every simulation run.
06:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> well, different meaning of "decoupled" :p
06:34:56  <peter1139> Sort of. It's not like the game is rendering stuff in between moving vehicles or whatever.
06:36:12  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, maybe my simplification was too broad... maybe more like: the rendering must be synchronized with the simulation, and the drawing must be synchronized with the rendering, but the drawing needn't be synchronized with the simulation.
06:37:31  <Eddi|zuHause> "synchronized" here means "one can't run while the other is running"
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07:23:00  <peter1139> I'm sure we both know what it means, and we're neither disagreeing.
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08:29:05  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: you are crazy
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12:14:34  <andythenorth> are we discussing lunch?
12:14:37  <andythenorth> or is that old news?
12:15:36  <LordAro> hmm, dorpsgek_ii didn't come back
12:15:41  <LordAro> that's disappointing
12:16:08  <LordAro> wait, yes it did
12:16:47  <LordAro> oh, another netsplit
12:19:10  <peter1139> I had lunch. It was, of course, another salad. With egg.
12:31:26  <peter1139> Wish I had some chocolate now, but didn't bring any, nor acquire from the sandwich van.
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12:36:01  <Samu> hi
12:36:07  <Samu> round 32  begins
12:40:15  <Samu> Radeon Pro Vega II Duo
12:40:18  <Samu> what a name
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13:00:51  <peter1139> Probably shit too.
13:00:57  <peter1139> Just like all ATIs.
13:07:17  <supermop_work> hmm now peter is emerald green in my irc client whereas normally he is ruby port
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14:13:35  <Eddi|zuHause>  that's because he incremented
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14:23:32  <Markk> incinerated*
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15:40:39  <nielsm> <-- WITH!!!!! ?
15:41:25  <nielsm> I don't mind reading posts by people not great at english, but that's a really strange way to write a single particular word
15:42:00  <LordAro> i've seen that before
15:42:05  <LordAro> i think it's a forum autoreplace
15:42:09  <LordAro> wiht or something
15:42:23  <nielsm> hm
15:44:16  <peter1139> Turn off censoring.
15:44:26  <peter1139> whit -> WITH!!!!!
15:44:47  <peter1139> (Or perhaps wiht)
15:46:15  <peter1139> It's an old orudge thing :p
15:49:47  <nielsm> it's "whit" in this case
15:49:53  <nielsm> found and disabled the censoring option
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16:34:32  <qwebirc95265> jo guys, i need to draw the domain class like the class diagram, any tips or helps ?
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16:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause> with all due respect, you sound like a spambot
16:36:26  <qwebirc95265> lol why would i ?
16:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> questionable nickname, asking a question without proper context
16:37:33  <qwebirc96565> guys , is it possible to make ships crash ? like trains and aircrafts
16:37:36  <qwebirc95265> well i thought the content was claer "OpenTTD" anything else?
16:38:49  <Eddi|zuHause> great, now it's two.
16:39:16  <qwebirc96565> dude I just came in
16:39:47  <qwebirc96565> if you dont have an answer tell me
16:40:03  <qwebirc95265> I dont, sorry
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16:42:40  <qwebirc96565> I'm asking one of the develepers not you :)
16:43:35  <qwebirc96565> developers*
16:43:40  <Eddi|zuHause> have you tried reading the code that makes trains crash?
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16:43:53  <qwebirc96565> I did
16:43:59  <qwebirc96565> 4 days
16:44:00  <Eddi|zuHause> what did you find?
16:44:21  <qwebirc96565> they are not same
16:44:38  <qwebirc96565> I cant implement crash function in ship.h // ship.cpp
16:46:00  <andythenorth> it is possible to make ships crash
16:46:06  <andythenorth> what would cause them to crash?
16:46:29  <frosch123> demolishing aqueducts with magic bulldozer?
16:47:01  <peter1139> Hit by a UFO.
16:47:14  <frosch123> sunk by the submarine?
16:47:18  <qwebirc96565> when 2 ships have the same x,y coordinates
16:47:27  <qwebirc96565> I need that explosioneffect to do it to ships
16:47:33  <andythenorth> yes that's possible
16:47:58  <qwebirc96565> how can I do it ?
16:47:59  <peter1139> It is definitely possible.
16:48:05  <peter1139> You can do it by writing the code to do it.
16:48:16  <andythenorth> yes, it's done by writing the code
16:48:31  <qwebirc96565> I tried to implement a class // struct Seavehicle (like Groundvehicle for train)
16:48:37  <qwebirc96565> lol
16:48:45  <andythenorth> iirc, ships are groundvehicles?
16:48:48  * andythenorth checks
16:48:49  <peter1139> Ships are already in their own vehicle class.
16:49:01  <peter1139> I don't see why you'd want or need to add another.
16:49:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: groundvehicles are things with articulated parts
16:49:26  <peter1139> Articulated ships, did you say?
16:49:30  <qwebirc96565> I said Seavehicle for ships like Groundvehicle for trains
16:49:32  <andythenorth> o_O
16:49:34  <peter1139> I think we've had that conversation :D
16:49:46  <andythenorth> what if the articulated ship parts collided?
16:49:57  <peter1139> Well they wouldn't, because ships don't collide.
16:50:05  <Eddi|zuHause> why would you need a seavehicle class, which would only have one subclass?
16:50:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: the front as back part connect, and the ship drives in circles forever
16:50:47  <andythenorth> would articulated ships be good?
16:50:53  <qwebirc96565> Yes I want the collide
16:50:55  * andythenorth serious question
16:51:23  <LordAro> qwebirc96565: no one's ever tried to make ships crash before, you're mostly on your own
16:51:46  <LordAro> it's certainly not as simple as adding a crash(); call somewhere
16:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> qwebirc96565: imho, adding a check for collision should be something around 10 loc, not a giant architecture change
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16:52:07  <andythenorth> there's a patch for ships that avoid each other
16:52:10  <andythenorth> in forums
16:52:10  <LordAro> ship movement code is probably a good place to start
16:52:12  <andythenorth> I'll find it
16:52:20  <qwebirc96565> I just need a change in the code for my Uni-Project , I suggested to the prof to add ship collision
16:52:41  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: well, changing the routing of ships wasn't part of the posed problem.
16:52:43  <peter1139> andythenorth, ships colliding is separate from ships avoiding each other ;)
16:52:49  <andythenorth> yes
16:53:26  <peter1139> qwebirc96565, so if this is university course work, you really need to learn how to do what you proposed to do. It's no good asking us to do your course work.
16:53:36  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: i was thinking "move_ship(); if ship.coord == another_ship.coord() { explode(); }"
16:53:44  <LordAro> so perhaps not directly in the movement code
16:54:02  <andythenorth> oh possibly JGR has already done it
16:54:05  <peter1139> I'm pretty sure it's, as Eddi|zuHause says, a few LoC to make ships collide. Desirably, no.
16:54:06  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: yes. as i said, 10loc
16:54:19  * andythenorth reading
16:54:42  <peter1139> qwebirc96565, real-world coding isn't about making new classes and having magic happen. You need to write the actual code to do stuff.
16:56:00  <andythenorth> yeah JGR has ship collision avoidance
16:56:05  <andythenorth> but not ship collisions
16:56:44  <qwebirc96565> so it is not possible yo make the collide ?
16:57:15  <andythenorth>
16:57:22  <peter1139> It is very much possible. You will have to write (albeit using existing code as refernce) your own code to do it!
16:58:10  <qwebirc96565> thank you !
16:58:51  <qwebirc96565> last question , I didnt find the main function when for example crashfunction ist called
16:59:09  <peter1139> You didn't find it for ships because it's not called for ships.
16:59:41  <qwebirc96565> I mean any function
16:59:52  <qwebirc96565> I gave the example of trainc rash
16:59:57  <qwebirc96565> train crash *
17:00:12  <peter1139> Search harder then. It may not be a separate function, it may be intermingled in other places.
17:00:31  <peter1139> If you're at university level, you really should be able to do this.
17:01:09  <andythenorth> try searching 'crashed'
17:01:11  <peter1139> ('this' being searching around code, figuring out how bits of it (not all of it of course!) work)
17:01:14  <LordAro> peter1139: depends on particular specialisation, tbf
17:01:15  * andythenorth guesses
17:01:38  * andythenorth BIAB, and then much NRT grf to make
17:01:41  <andythenorth> very fun :)
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17:01:48  <peter1139> LordAro, university level is dumbed down enough to not have basic skills of understanding things?
17:02:12  <peter1139> Discovery is waaaay before uni level.
17:02:19  <LordAro> you would think
17:02:23  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1139: given the discussions i follwed during my time at university, where they started introducing the "Bologna" changes, yes.
17:03:28  <LordAro> you can *nearly* get through the entire CS course at York without touching a computer
17:04:21  <LordAro> well, perhaps that's not quite fair, but there's an awful lot that doesn't require it, nor does it particularly focus on practical skills
17:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> university never focused on practical skills
17:21:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but one of those "bologna" standardization changes being discussed was for example the requirement to teach binary as a basic concept
17:21:53  <Eddi|zuHause> which was being removed
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18:00:56  <Wolf01> o/
18:00:59  <Wolf01> Back.
18:02:30  <Wolf01> Choice was between 1070ti and rtx2060... the result was clear
18:03:33  <Wolf01> Problem is that I can't connect the other display right now :P
18:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> could you explain that choice to someone who has never heard those letter combinations before?
18:06:48  <Wolf01> 1070 is a bit old, still really valid but I choose a brand new one so it might be supported a bit longer
18:07:42  <Wolf01>
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18:10:52  <Eddi|zuHause> support length was definitely a factor i considered when buying my graphics card
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18:14:04  <Wolf01> This one is about 4cm shorter than my old one
18:14:43  <Wolf01> I have a tower server case, plenty of space, so size is not a problem :P
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18:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that website doesn't seem to be able to sort on price/value
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18:25:14  <andythenorth> Wolf01: orange crawler? o_O
18:25:18  <andythenorth> or is Lego over yet?
18:25:54  <supermop_work> orange crawler?
18:25:57  <Wolf01> Orange crawler.
18:26:25  <Wolf01> Also huge excavator, I'm hoarding vip points for it
18:26:40  <supermop_work> i want the vestas turbine
18:26:47  <supermop_work> and the roller coaster
18:27:23  <supermop_work> the roller coaster should snap into the townhouse buildings
18:27:44  <supermop_work> i mean it would be trivial to modify it to
19:10:38  <Wolf01> andythenorth: I purchased some tens of those new small technic panels 3x3x1, I'm looking to use them in my current moc because they should really simplify a lot of things
19:16:36  <andythenorth> I don't have any
19:16:45  <andythenorth> lego buying has ceased :)
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20:14:44  <Wolf01> <- andythenorth
20:15:10  <andythenorth> yup
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