Log for #openttd on 21st June 2019:
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09:38:14  <peter1138> Is it lunch time?
09:40:36  <andythenorth> I accidentally ate lunch
09:41:14  <peter1138> Well, I had dinner this morning.
09:41:28  <peter1138> It was about half-past midnight.
09:41:35  <peter1138> Kinda late but.
09:41:49  <peter1138> I'd only had about 1300 carolies so needed something.
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13:18:41  <andythenorth> is it lunch again?
13:21:44  <peter1138> Yes, Lunch Redux.
13:22:45  <andythenorth> what should I have?
13:23:42  <peter1138> Macaroni Cheese, probably.
13:23:52  <peter1138> I had salad, obviously.
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14:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i got promised steak tonight
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16:28:27  <andythenorth> well
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17:45:16  <frosch123> so, V ruined his coworker's love for factorio by theory-talking factory designs :p
17:45:27  <frosch123> only a #coop person could achieve that
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17:49:12  <V453000> :(
17:53:47  <frosch123> at least there a 3 people with ttd/ottd background on the team :)
17:54:31  <V453000> :)
17:54:39  <V453000> ruined their openttd even more :P
17:56:20  <frosch123> did they found a support group for coop-suffering?
17:57:48  <V453000> no they just avoided touching any train game ever since
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18:31:15  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, is that like promised lands?
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19:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: are these lands delicious when put on a grill?
19:26:44  * andythenorth had lamb rice chips halloumi
19:29:33  * peter1138 is having frozen-veg medley with boiled marrow and chicken meatballs. Traditional "eh, whatever" fayre...
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21:02:46  <Eddi|zuHause> soo... astroneer update
21:03:08  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: ooh
21:03:13  <LordAro> anything fun?
21:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- i kinda like the "tall platform" (left), but the "tall storage" (right) is kinda meh
21:06:09  <Eddi|zuHause> haven't delved much deeper than that yet
21:06:25  <Eddi|zuHause> need more bits to research the new stuff
21:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> there's also some storage silo thing in the screenshot which seems neat
21:07:30  <peter1138> I... haven't played it for so long. I don't know what I'm supposed to do now :/
21:08:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the new storage silo looks weird on the medium rocket, but i guess it triples the amount of stuff i can take with me
21:09:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i should finally make that leap to search for iron on another planet, instead of hoping i happen across a third piece of processed scrap on the starting planet
21:11:14  <Eddi|zuHause> (with three pieces of scrap i could trade for iron, which would allow me to build a shredder and make more scrap)
21:14:50  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the recent patchnotes also said they made the core structure provide oxygen, so i might go back there and work on the puzzle
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21:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause> what doesn't help is that i still haven't gotten a new computer, and am still scraping at the single-digit fps
21:22:43  <andythenorth> oh Eddi|zuHause :(
21:22:46  <andythenorth> just buy a Dell
21:23:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but everybody i talked to recently said to wait for the new ryzen
21:23:27  <andythenorth> should I buy an external GPU?
21:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause> external as in usb plug?
21:25:01  <andythenorth> USB-C / Thunderbolt
21:25:12  <andythenorth> by some witchcraft, it then drives my laptop display
21:25:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm unsure about GPUs... my current one cost 100€ back when i bought it, but 100€ GPUs today have barely any performance gain (according to benchmarks)
21:25:39  <peter1138> Hmm, apparently I don't even have a savegame.
21:26:11  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i think they wiped early-access savegames
21:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> so, i'm out to at least a 200€ CPU, 200€ mainboard and 200€ GPU, and i'm almost at the price of my previous PC, and haven't got any other stuff like a case, SSD, RAM, ...
21:28:59  <andythenorth> "Depending on the game, the Iris Plus 655 will probably be on par with a dedicated GeForce 930M or GeForce 940MX and can handle smooth gameplay in modern titles in low up to medium settings."
21:29:08  <andythenorth> lucky me
21:29:43  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: afaict, computer prices are now €2k
21:30:04  <andythenorth> they were €600, then €1200, and now they're the price of a good used car
21:30:15  <andythenorth> but we buy them every 5 years not every year
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21:30:47  <glx> mac maybe, you can get decent pc for way less than 2k
21:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the last one was 800€-ish, with no monitor and onboard graphics
21:30:55  <milek7_> 200eur motherboard is rather expensive?
21:32:04  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7_: there was still some fuzz about motherboards for the next gen ryzen, but it was said they were going to be on the expensive side
21:32:51  <milek7_> it wouldn't be still AM4?
21:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause> probably, but with some bios tweaks and higher ram speed?
21:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not really knowledgable on that sector
21:34:11  <andythenorth> so how much is a decent PC?
21:34:33  <Eddi|zuHause> ... depends
21:34:38  <peter1138> andythenorth, don't confuse "mac" with "computer"
21:35:01  <andythenorth> I looked at switching to HP last year
21:35:13  <andythenorth> because Apple looked like they were losing the plot
21:35:25  <andythenorth> there's no price saving on laptops
21:35:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can probably go a long way with an ALDI-PC and slapping a decend GPU in
21:35:53  <andythenorth> how much is a decent GPU?
21:36:00  <andythenorth> they seem to be > €1k
21:36:36  <peter1138> No, that's high-end more-money-than-sense gamer GPUs.
21:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> GPU speed seemed to be linear with price in the ranges i looked at
21:36:45  <peter1138> A decent GPU is still 100-200.
21:36:57  <Eddi|zuHause> which is 100-400€
21:38:57  <andythenorth> eh SSDs caught up
21:38:59  * andythenorth looking
21:40:50  <milek7_> funny, my cpu is from 2009. back in 2009 cpu from 1999 would be useless
21:41:07  <Eddi|zuHause> same here
21:41:23  <andythenorth> hmm SSDs are confusing
21:41:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the important stat of SSDs is continuous write speed, but they never tell you that stat
21:42:10  <andythenorth> I have an app that benchmarks it for as long as you want to leave it running :P
21:42:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but you can only run that app if you already bought it
21:42:35  <andythenorth> that is the sad thing
21:42:56  <andythenorth> quoted speeds are very variable from manufacturers
21:42:56  <nielsm> I think the wisdom for SSDs now is that pretty much any recent model is "good enough", WD Blue is a good middle ground, and samsung are expensive for name brand but not any better than the rest
21:43:17  <andythenorth> mine's some kind of 'soldered to the motherboard' thing
21:43:56  <nielsm> and unless you're doing heavy data/media processing (like 4k video or a bunch of VMs at the same time) then paying extra for NVMe is not worth it, but if you can get NVMe for little or no extra price you may as well
21:44:37  <andythenorth> I just like fast backups
21:45:05  <andythenorth> I have 2GB/s on board, but the fastest external I can back up to is about 300MB/s
21:45:46  <andythenorth> I can still remember having spinnng glass disk, not that long ago
21:46:03  <andythenorth> 5400 RPM :P
21:46:31  <milek7_> ssd are still too expensive
21:46:55  <nielsm> you value your time that little?
21:47:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i still have this cheap 2.5" ssd from 5 years ago
21:47:22  <nielsm> the time wasted waiting for spinning platters of rust is unbearable
21:48:24  <nielsm> a fast computer definitely has solid state storage, a slow computer might not have that
21:48:37  <nielsm> if you get rotating rust then you're guaranteed a slow computer
21:48:43  <andythenorth> never waiting for IO is great
21:48:51  <milek7_> i have ssd for system disk, but honestly it doesn't make that difference
21:48:52  <andythenorth> I only get beachball rarely now
21:49:35  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7_: i don't know what benchmark you put onto that, but when i put in my SSD, boot time was like 1/10th of before
21:51:07  <andythenorth> is a Radeon RX 560 any good?
21:51:25  <glx> to heat a room yes ;)
21:51:52  <andythenorth> apparently it allows 'some modern titles' to be played
21:51:54  <andythenorth> at lower settings
21:52:14  <andythenorth> it might be able to cope with e-sports, if you're not too demanding
21:52:25  <andythenorth> WTF happened in gaming whilst I was asleep?
21:52:45  <andythenorth> last time I checked in, consoles had won, and high-end gfx cards were for mining crypto
21:53:04  <glx> consoles are low cost pc
21:53:05  <andythenorth> something is weird
21:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> crypto crashed like a year ago?
21:53:18  <andythenorth> and iPad massively outperforms my Mac
21:53:32  <andythenorth> despite being 50% of the price and 50% of the size
21:53:47  * andythenorth very confused by technology
21:53:53  <glx> well it's Apple doing stuff ;)
21:54:15  <glx> nice design, high price, useless ;)
21:54:28  <andythenorth> that doesn't make any sennse
21:54:40  <andythenorth> how does that lead to iPads that outperform high end laptops?
21:55:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you're comparing apples with apples...
21:55:10  <andythenorth> iPads are just a useless chunk of glass
21:55:21  <glx> iPad SoC is optimised for the size
21:55:23  <milek7_> i have rx580 and it's ok on AMDGPU
21:55:25  <Eddi|zuHause> what you need is oranges
21:55:30  <milek7_> but Windows drivers are garbage
21:55:49  <glx> laptop using standard cpu/gpu can't compete
21:55:52  <andythenorth>
21:56:17  <glx> they need to be slowed down for battery saving and less efficient cooling
21:56:21  <andythenorth>
21:57:07  <andythenorth> the most lolz result
21:57:15  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i thought graphics cards are mostly affected by memory size, less by gpu
21:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: can you elaborate?
21:57:57  <frosch123> i need to fit all the textures into vram to play factorio properly
21:58:24  <andythenorth> maybe I should compile FIRS on an iPad
21:58:31  <andythenorth> oh no wait, it's a crippled walled garden
21:58:33  <andythenorth> I can't
21:58:46  <frosch123> maybe the question is whether you need high dpi/resolution or high frame rate
21:59:03  <frosch123> my games do not need high frame rate, but they usually care about huge screens
21:59:16  <glx> he needs high dpi, else it's ugly on his mac screen ;)
21:59:32  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i want 1080p, possibly dual-screen
21:59:59  <glx> most gpu can handle that now I think
22:00:23  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: not my 5 year old 100€ one
22:00:40  <andythenorth> is hidpi not standard?
22:00:41  <glx> yeah my GTS450 is too limited ;)
22:01:04  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: even though they improved driver by several orders of magnitude, every game update brings it back down to its knees
22:01:21  <glx> driver is not updated now
22:01:27  <glx> too old
22:02:17  <glx> but if I buy a new GPU I'll need an hdmi-to-vga converter
22:02:18  <Eddi|zuHause> radeon linux driver made some massive leaps about a year ago with pushing vulkan technology
22:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> huh? your screen uses VGA?
22:02:46  <glx> I don't wan't to replace a perfectly working screen
22:03:00  <andythenorth> I had a monitor once
22:03:01  <frosch123> yeah, i wonder whether my nvidia will be affected when upgrading to next debian
22:03:02  <andythenorth> years ago
22:03:14  <frosch123> i read some nvidia api was trashed from the kernel
22:03:30  <andythenorth> hmm
22:03:33  <andythenorth> bedtime very
22:03:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood how they produce digital screens without a DVI input
22:03:56  <frosch123> glx: you use an analog screen?
22:04:04  <frosch123> digital screens are so much sharper
22:04:17  <andythenorth> I used to like the blurry dots
22:04:21  <andythenorth> I miss all that
22:04:35  <glx> it's an lcd
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22:04:58  <Eddi|zuHause> all my screens in the last... 15 years? ... had DVI
22:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> well, basically that's two...
22:05:31  <Eddi|zuHause> before that i had a giant CRT
22:05:33  <frosch123> i have not seen dvi in past 10 years
22:05:49  <glx> DVI on some models as stated in the manual
22:05:55  <glx> not for mine
22:06:11  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: like i said, i never understood how that is...
22:06:27  <frosch123> i am mostly confused about displayport vs hdmi
22:06:41  <frosch123> for some reason notebooks often have hdmi
22:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it's easy, there's about 10 versions of each
22:06:59  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and all are marginally incompatible with each other
22:07:53  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i had the opposite experience. laptop with DP out and screen with HDMI in
22:08:07  <glx> manual says march 2008
22:08:48  <frosch123> 2008 means 4:3?
22:08:56  <glx> 16:10
22:09:26  <glx> 1680x1050
22:10:33  <milek7_> for some reason TVs never have displayport
22:11:41  <glx> devices intended to be plugged in TV are usually HDMI
22:13:23  <Eddi|zuHause> if i can trust my screenshots i got my 16:10 screen around mid 2007 (with DVI)
22:13:53  <peter1138> And still 16:10 even now.
22:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and 16:9 around mid 2012
22:16:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (the 16:10 screen died like 3 days after the 5 year warranty ran out)
22:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the 16:9 might also have HDMI, but i can't be bothered to check...
22:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i never had a HDMI cable
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22:36:16  <planetmaker> hm... so two 27" at 4k. Or only one 43" at 4k? :P
22:37:20  <frosch123> i haven't seen a curved 32:9 screen in person
22:37:36  <frosch123> so, no idea whether it is as nice as it is hyped
22:37:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds out of my price range :p
22:38:10  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i got two of the cheapest 16:9 screens in 2010, good enouigh for me
22:38:38  <Eddi|zuHause> my one 16:9 screen cost about 300€ i think
22:38:58  <frosch123> that's about the sum of the two
22:39:03  <Eddi|zuHause> 27"
22:39:27  <frosch123> mine are smaller, or i would need a larger table
22:39:41  <frosch123> i measured that before buying :p
22:39:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i would need to redecorate if i got a second one
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22:40:38  <frosch123> if you want two, better get two identical ones
22:40:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and some voice in the back of my head tells me it'd be cooler if i got two narrower screens
22:41:02  <frosch123> some of my coworkers have different old ones, and it's quite irritating that the colors never match
22:41:05  <Eddi|zuHause> to put left and right of the current one
22:42:01  <Eddi|zuHause> color correction is weird
22:42:02  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, some people use a landscape one in the middle, and a portrait one on each side
22:42:16  <frosch123> they love the portrait ones for consoles
22:42:18  <planetmaker> one of my 24" died... so I need something new :P
22:44:06  <planetmaker> and identical as the remaining... not sure I find that
22:44:10  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i suppose there's no 4:3 or 5:4 monitors of the same height as my 16:9 monitor
22:44:39  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: even identical wouldn't mean it got the same colours
22:44:55  <planetmaker> well, but reasonably close
22:45:13  <frosch123> planetmaker: the colour changes with the age
22:45:13  <planetmaker> They should allow colour calibration
22:45:21  <frosch123> so, same model, one year difference, is noticeable
22:45:38  <planetmaker> hm, yeah
22:45:52  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: true colour calibration needs a device that can read the actual displayed colours
22:46:16  <planetmaker> there are a select few which come colour-calibrated out-of-factory. Or so they claim
22:46:26  <planetmaker> I think some... phillips?
22:46:34  <frosch123> sounds expensive :p
22:46:35  <Eddi|zuHause> that still doesn't correct for aging
22:47:02  <peter1138> Eizo, but they're expensive, and yeah, colours change with age.
22:47:18  <planetmaker> it actually was not super duper expensive - much to my surprise
22:47:36  <planetmaker> similar to what other manufacturers had for similar specs w/o calibration
22:47:53  <planetmaker> but... well... it's not exactly my most important point
22:49:28  <planetmaker> I'm currently inclined for one big monitor slightly... can double as TV better than 2 smaller ones
22:49:49  <planetmaker> and with 4k pixels would still be larger than 2 fullHD
22:50:00  <frosch123> planetmaker: those have different ratios
22:50:13  <frosch123> for a tv you want 16:9, for wokring you want 32:9
22:50:29  <planetmaker> true
22:51:01  <frosch123> also, if you put the tv on one, and work on the other, you do not need to care about colour matching :p
22:51:44  <planetmaker> :D
22:52:02  <planetmaker> But sometimes I want... when I compare photos
22:52:06  * peter1138 has 48:10
22:52:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid i won't have space for 3 widescreen monitors :p
22:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause> well, not unless i also invest in a new desk
22:53:27  <planetmaker> My desk can probably fit 2*32". But not more
22:53:34  <planetmaker> definitely not more
22:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause> and possibly a new room layout
22:53:51  <nielsm> get a monitor arm and you can fit much more
22:53:52  <Eddi|zuHause> or a new room
22:54:14  <planetmaker> well... no... left is a wall. and right is a cupboard :P
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22:54:53  <planetmaker> unless I start also to rearrange my whole room :P
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