Log for #openttd on 25th June 2019:
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02:22:02  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on issue #7580: Feature Request: When loading a saved game, the file picker should remember the last used directory
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07:09:18  <nielsm> morning
07:09:40  <nakki> morn
07:15:18  <LordAro> mrng
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07:52:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the ending -ing usually describes a process, so "morning" is the process of becoming "morn"
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08:14:48  <reldred> there is mourning involved, yes, generally.
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08:30:11  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: o/
08:30:38  <andythenorth> for perishable cargo payment rates: if I check cargo in vehicle for, e.g. food, milk etc
08:30:49  <andythenorth> and set the cargo aging period accordingly
08:31:07  <andythenorth> do I need to be concerned about what the cargo has actually defined as age periods?
08:31:21  <andythenorth> i.e. I don't have any way to detect what the industry set is doing
08:32:05  <andythenorth> (the concern arises when writing docs to explain to player how it works)
08:33:45  <reldred> Sigh, Andy, I hate to gush, but I really, really like those little industrial trams of yours
08:34:31  <andythenorth> in HEQS?  Or Hog?
08:35:00  <reldred> One of the two. I forget which now. Which one is the Heningdorf in?
08:35:51  <andythenorth> HEQS
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08:36:13  <reldred> :O
08:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i hate when he does that...
08:45:19  <reldred> yeah, here's me checking the credits on the grf to see whether I was actually singing praises of his mortal ttd community rivals .grf
08:45:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, asking a question and then disappearing five minutes later
08:46:00  <reldred> lol
08:46:12  <reldred> Well yes, that too I guess.
08:46:31  <reldred> Somebody needs to set him up with znc, or irssi in a tmux session
08:46:38  <LordAro> someone should get hi- ^
08:47:56  <Artea> I can get him a znc
08:48:03  <Artea> but doubt he would use it
08:49:52  <reldred> Strange, I never used to use road vehicles in ttd but now with cargo dist and nrt I'm using them religiously.
08:52:22  <nakki> i'd like to remind everyone that weechat > irssi
08:57:14  <reldred> look, I'd like to remind everyone that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
09:00:41  <peter1138> Yeah, cargo dist makes using different vehicle types more enjoyable.
09:02:17  <reldred> For sure. I've turned it off for regular cargo, but for passenger services I swear by it.
09:02:38  <nakki> yeah it's pretty much required for passenger and mail service to be enjoyable
09:02:51  <nakki> i still only use trains, though
09:02:53  <nakki> choo choo
09:04:28  <reldred> Yeah I default to trains, but I'm playing some really large maps (1k*4k) and using andy's industrial trams for short distance stuff and trains for long distance.
09:04:36  <nakki> ah
09:04:56  <reldred> and a few well placed tram routes in cities really help make intercity train runs more profitable.
09:05:22  <nakki> oh yeah, feeder services for trains are nice, but i usually stick to industry
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09:24:10  <reldred> hmmm, pathfinding for long road vehicles is interesting however.
09:24:38  <reldred> still, five tile long industrial trams just makes me giggle.
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09:31:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i usually use the shorter ones
09:31:11  <reldred> Yeah
09:31:26  <reldred> These are pushing it a bit but it's fun
09:31:36  <peter1138> Is it snack time?
09:31:54  <reldred> Yes
09:32:24  <peter1138> Legit.
09:32:46  <peter1138> Only issue is I already had a snack 15 minutes ago. I must have been very thirsty to finish that coffee in 15 minutes.
09:33:21  <reldred> black coffee is like no kilojoules so drink up
09:33:33  <reldred> til the brain aneurysm happens at least
09:41:31  <peter1138> Yeah, I tend to have a bit of food with it at around this time of day as well.
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10:26:25  <reldred> Sigh, I forgot the 'go-via' order existed and worked for road vehicles.
10:28:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you're missing a dozen other essential features as well :p
10:28:52  <reldred> Timetables. I never learnt them
10:29:08  <Eddi|zuHause> timetables are terrible to manage
10:29:13  <reldred> And at this point I'm too afraid to ask how
10:29:14  <reldred> :P
10:30:52  <reldred> I mean I remember when waypoints were first added to ttdpatch and before that we made single tile train stations with the go-via order but for some reason it escaped me I could do the same with road vehicles.
10:31:25  <reldred> Just chalk it up to dumb bitch disease I guess.
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10:42:41  <Eddi|zuHause> we also now have "no loading and no unloading" orders, which is like go-via, but the train still stops (and can be timetabled to wait)
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10:43:08  <reldred> Oh neat
10:43:21  <reldred> And there you said it again, timetables XD
10:43:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
10:43:43  <Eddi|zuHause> timetables are great. except the management
10:44:02  <reldred> Yeah, I think I need to make an effort to sit down and learn it before I do my next big pax route.
10:44:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you can get much denser well-moving traffic if you have a properly set up timetable
10:44:31  <reldred> Yup, that's what my last few maps desperately needed
10:45:00  <reldred> I need to start a new game anyway, left this one on fast forward  too long and now it's the 50's.
10:45:13  <Eddi|zuHause> like, i had transrapid routes from A-B and A-C, with a merge halfway down the line
10:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> with timetables, you can make them interleave properly, without slowing down
10:45:35  <reldred> Nice
10:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> (so-called "evil mode")
10:46:03  <reldred> Yeah I'm on nightshift at work babysitting progress bars
10:46:08  <nakki> hah
10:46:17  <reldred> and yeah, experimenting with a few things with road vehicles
10:46:33  <reldred> so putting it on FF to see what would happen, would it jam up over time, etc.
10:46:39  <Eddi|zuHause> road vehicles are good for your first steps with timetables
10:47:08  <nakki> i could never figure out timetables
10:47:12  <nakki> even though i kinda wanted to
10:47:15  <nakki> for spacing out buses and such
10:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> what usually happens with RVs is that they bunch up, with proper timetables they stay separated equally
10:49:10  <Eddi|zuHause> basic rules i use to set up RV timetables: 1) let the first vehicle run empty, without being blocked as best as possible, 2) increase the wait time at the end stations, possibly reduce it at middle stations, 3) ensure vehicles can overtake at the end stations
10:52:10  <peter1138> My thing with timetables is I seem to expect vehicles to be able to make up time, despite the schedule being set up for the minimum time already possible. I know it's wrong :p
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11:21:24  <Eddi|zuHause> that's one of the things missing, set up time for 80% of max speed, and only speed up to 100% if late
11:21:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the other thing missing is synchronizing two timetables
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14:10:01  <andythenorth> well
14:10:10  <andythenorth> lunch?
14:16:57  <peter1138> Bit late.
14:17:00  <peter1138> Afternoon tea?
14:19:38  <andythenorth> fair
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14:34:56  <LordAro> second breakfast
14:38:11  <peter1138> Snacky McSnackFace.
14:43:00  <reldred> I had a 2nd dinner. Cheese kransky since my work shift didn't end til 10pm (it started at 11am)
14:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think what i just ate would pass as a "snack"
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17:11:09  <andythenorth> o/
17:15:19  <nielsm> andythenorth: for the mac framerate issue, can you try editing video/cocoa/ and change the GetTick() function to be similar to GetPerformanceTimer() from framerate_gui.cpp, except time_point_cast<milliseconds>
17:15:38  <nielsm> and you also need to add #include <chrono>
17:15:45  <andythenorth> likely I can later yes
17:15:54  <andythenorth> have to make kids' dinner, then do some chores :)
17:16:01  <nielsm> sure
17:16:21  <andythenorth> I lost interest yesterday due to silly comments :P
17:16:22  <nielsm> return (uint32)time_point_cast<milliseconds>(high_resolution_clock::now()).time_since_epoch().count();
17:16:53  <LordAro> nielsm: thisisfine.jpg
17:17:32  <nielsm> truncation is okay as long as you don't wait more than 49 days between calls
17:17:55  <nielsm> since you just need to be able to take differences between monotonic unsigned values
17:19:24  <LordAro> hahaha
17:21:30  <LordAro> @calc 1/(49*24*60*60)
17:21:30  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 2.36205593348e-07
17:21:46  <LordAro> so as long as you have more than ^ fps, you should be fine
17:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause> 49 days is such a typical windows overflow
17:22:12  <nielsm> yeah it's a famous bug that was fixed in one of the windows nt 4 service packs
17:22:19  <nielsm> system freezes after 49 days of uptime
17:22:45  <nielsm> I guess the 9x versions may also have been affected
17:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: it's a bug that keeps reappearing all over the place
17:28:57  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: like there was an airplane that had to rebooted every 49 days to avoid some problems with unhandled overflow
17:30:03  <nielsm> I think that was a boeing 787
17:35:51  <nielsm> and airlines did not want to reboot the aircraft since they have to run them all day and night for max profit and the startup sequence takes too long time
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18:31:22  <Firzen> Somehow my friend can't join my local server anymore. It worked last time (some months ago) with the old version (1.7). Now we're using 1.9.1. Anything changed since then? I forwarded the port TCP and UDP and we have no firewalls running...
18:33:29  <nielsm> nothing major should have changed
18:33:52  <nielsm> are you connecting via ip address or waiting for the server to show up in the server browser automatically?
18:34:32  <nielsm> and I assume by "local server" you mean over a LAN, not over internet
18:34:55  <nielsm> make sure Advertised is set to Yes when starting the server
18:34:59  <Firzen> No, via internet, but the server runs on my computer.
18:35:14  <Firzen> is advertised needed even when he adds it via IP?
18:35:20  <nielsm> then it's not
18:35:33  <nielsm> advertised is for making it auto-discoverable on a LAN
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18:36:24  <Firzen> Yeah, I thought os.
18:36:31  <Firzen> It always worked like this as well.
18:36:37  <Wolf01> o/
18:36:41  <Wolf01> I survived!
18:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> you survived what, legoland?
18:45:59  <Wolf01> Yes
18:46:43  <Wolf01> We walked about 56km in 3 days, with a lot of bags full of lego
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19:39:01  <andythenorth> yo
19:39:20  <Wolf01> oy
19:39:21  <andythenorth> nielsm: so what eh?  Test this framerate thing?
19:39:40  <andythenorth> I set configure to some high debug level, that slows things down?
19:40:03  <nielsm> no just run normally with that change
19:40:19  <nielsm> see if it can ffwd correctly
19:40:28  <andythenorth> I need to reset the debug level
19:40:29  * andythenorth wiki
19:41:45  <andythenorth> debug=0
19:41:46  <andythenorth> ?
19:41:53  <andythenorth> google is finding nothing useful for instructions
19:43:22  <nielsm> --disable-debug should be all you need to ,/configure if you want to make a non-debug build
19:43:34  <nielsm> or maybe --enable-debug=0
19:43:45  <nielsm> (I'd try "disable" first)
19:43:46  <andythenorth> the latter I think
19:43:52  <andythenorth> disable is unknown
19:45:40  <andythenorth> so replace "return tim.tv_usec / 1000 + tim.tv_sec * 1000;" in GetTick with the line above?
19:45:57  <nielsm> yes
19:46:01  <nielsm> and add #include <chrono>
19:46:24  <nielsm> also you need "using namespace std::chrono;" before that line I wrote
19:46:28  <andythenorth> do I need to keep or delete "struct timeval tim;" ?
19:46:34  <andythenorth> and "gettimeofday(&tim, NULL);"
19:46:43  <nielsm> delete those
19:46:56  <nielsm> replace the contents of the function :)
19:47:18  <andythenorth> ok let's see
19:47:38  * andythenorth needs more CPU cores
19:48:09  <andythenorth> I have pegged out all 8 :P
19:48:51  <andythenorth> 28 Xeon cores anyone? :P
19:49:21  <andythenorth> nielsm: ok compiled :)
19:49:56  <andythenorth> now what?
19:50:03  <nielsm> run the game and look at the framerate
19:50:09  <nielsm> see if ffwd does something
19:50:40  <andythenorth> would a video be more useful than words?
19:51:17  <nielsm> I'm not sure if it's necessary
19:52:15  <andythenorth> ffwd kicks the game loop and video rate both up to around 50fps
19:52:23  <andythenorth> baseline is about 28fps
19:52:30  <nielsm> that's not great
19:52:34  <andythenorth> speed factor is hovering around 1.9x
19:52:42  <andythenorth> can't remember what it used to be on previous OS
19:52:43  <nielsm> what resolution and scaling are you running?
19:53:27  <nielsm> try setting scaling to 1x for text and ui, and resolution to 1024x768 windowed, see if that makes things better
19:54:15  <nielsm> also what kind of times are you getting for Drawing and Video Output
19:56:50  <andythenorth> video output is around 0.00ms
19:57:09  <andythenorth> rendering is about 0.26ms
19:57:23  <andythenorth> oh it's gone up to 0.4ms when I closed a news message, weird
19:57:49  <nielsm> but still poor fps?
19:58:04  <andythenorth> ^^ those values are quite constant ffwd / not ffwd btw
19:58:08  <andythenorth> I will now change scaling
19:58:26  <nielsm> if your drawing and rendering times are that low then scaling/res should not matter
19:59:23  <andythenorth> I am testing a few things
19:59:40  <andythenorth> I've just removed 7 AIs from the game, to avoid possible AI distortion
20:00:38  <andythenorth> ok I'll try combos of UI and font scale now
20:00:49  <andythenorth> both 1x, viewport in corner of the map
20:00:54  <nielsm> if the fps is still unreasonable with that then I have another code change to attempt
20:01:57  <andythenorth> ok, both 1x, ffwd, game speed factor is bouncing between 17 and 22x, ~500fps
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20:02:11  <andythenorth> peaking around 750fps
20:02:22  <nielsm> okay so it can run fast then
20:02:41  <nielsm> how is normal non-ffwd fps?
20:02:53  <nielsm> does it lock near 33.3 fps?
20:03:02  <andythenorth> I'll check in a minute.  2x UI zoom, 1x font zoom is getting similar results
20:03:14  <andythenorth> oh no wait, this is now 2x on both
20:03:20  * andythenorth confused by settings ;P
20:04:19  <andythenorth> I don't understand this behaviour at all
20:04:33  <andythenorth> the frame rate is sometimes pegged to ~80fps
20:04:46  <andythenorth> until a news message opens, then it jumps to ~600fps
20:04:56  <andythenorth> the news message might be coincidental
20:05:32  <nielsm> the news message might cover some landscape that needs less complex drawing then
20:06:11  <andythenorth> it's all just sea tiles or black
20:06:23  <nielsm> hm odd
20:06:36  <andythenorth> the news message might be misleading
20:06:38  <andythenorth> dunno
20:06:58  <andythenorth> sometimes framerate is stuck for several seconds before ffwd kicks in
20:07:00  <andythenorth> no AI running
20:07:06  <andythenorth> no vehicles
20:07:16  <andythenorth> oh there is GS
20:07:21  <andythenorth> I'll remove it
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20:08:48  <andythenorth> on normal it's locking around 33-34fps
20:08:58  <nielsm> great
20:09:15  <andythenorth> ouch my laptop is now red hot :D
20:09:18  <nielsm> what if you go back to your usual settings?
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20:09:35  <andythenorth> this is on 2x/2x which is usual
20:09:45  <nielsm> and also window size usual?
20:09:56  <andythenorth> yes
20:09:59  <nielsm> nice
20:10:02  <andythenorth> ok so I changed back to 1x/1x
20:10:11  <andythenorth> the same lag until a news message opened
20:10:14  <andythenorth> for 5-6s
20:10:55  <nielsm> and btw are you getting the poor performance in the official 1.9.1 release that others have reported?
20:11:49  <andythenorth> ok and again, after changing back to 2x/2x
20:12:04  <andythenorth> a full 60s at ~80fps, then a news message appeared and fps rapidly increased
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20:13:43  <nielsm> the most important is that it's capable of running at 100+ fps in ffwd
20:13:47  <andythenorth> ok 1.9.1
20:13:53  <andythenorth> I wouldn't describe it as poor
20:14:04  <andythenorth> on new 2048x2048 map, with no AI or GS
20:14:20  <andythenorth> it's pushing 400-500fps on FFWD
20:14:21  <nielsm> it should lock at about 33 fps in normal on an empty game
20:14:38  <andythenorth> yes, it's performing about the same as the self-compiled binary
20:14:43  <nielsm> hm
20:14:49  <nielsm> so you aren't getting the performance issue there then
20:14:58  <andythenorth> noticeably, as soon as I have vehicles etc perfomance dips
20:15:05  <andythenorth> ffwd no longer has any effect at some point
20:15:15  <andythenorth> I haven't tested that rigorously though
20:15:30  <nielsm> even in a "normal" "simple" game? with just a few hundred vehicles
20:15:38  <nielsm> (and no newgrf)
20:15:52  <andythenorth> I don't have a quick repro
20:16:08  <nielsm> the issue others are reporting is getting like 10-15 fps on the title game
20:16:10  <andythenorth> all my recent games have AI and GS running, and included patches / PRs :P
20:16:20  <andythenorth> I don't get 10-15fps
20:16:24  * andythenorth looks for the ticket
20:16:38  <andythenorth> I do lose all the recent ffwd speedups
20:17:25  <andythenorth> we're looking at this?
20:18:21  <nielsm> yes that second-to-last post
20:18:31  <nielsm> and also the thing discussed here:
20:18:37  <nielsm> (same issue)
20:19:32  <andythenorth> oof
20:19:58  <andythenorth> let's take the map out of the corner and see
20:21:01  <andythenorth> ok if I go to an area of the map with more stuff, including animated FIRS industries
20:21:08  <andythenorth> rendering goes up to about 1ms
20:21:58  <andythenorth> (obviously) if I turn on 'full animation' that dumps the frame rate
20:21:59  <nielsm> remember the total budget for each frame is 30 ms for game loop + rendering + output
20:22:05  <andythenorth> but that should be known issue by now no?
20:22:20  <nielsm> yeah and that should also be measurable in the frame times
20:23:47  <andythenorth> if I find a really toxic combination of industry and sea, I can get it down to about 17fps
20:23:55  <nielsm> the issue we're looking for/trying to repro is: The overall framerate is very low on an empty game/the title game, despite all the individual component times shown in the framerate window being very low and not adding up to the total frame time implied by the framerate.
20:24:36  <andythenorth> ok so let's say with full animation on, I have about 19fps average on 'normal' speed
20:24:39  <nielsm> with "the component times not adding up to the implied total frame time" being the core of the issue
20:24:47  <andythenorth> but rendering is only 0.9ms
20:24:55  <andythenorth> world ticks is 1.7ms
20:25:02  <andythenorth> viewports is 0.48ms
20:25:10  <andythenorth> game loop total is 1.74ms
20:25:14  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
20:25:28  <andythenorth> everything else is ~0
20:25:39  <nielsm> game loop total + drawing total + video output = expected frame time
20:25:53  <andythenorth> but this 19fps is trivially solved by turning off full animation
20:25:55  <nielsm> 1000 / fps = actual frame time (in ms)
20:25:56  <andythenorth> and has been for years
20:26:25  <andythenorth> I kind of wonder if 'full animation' should just be removed
20:26:50  <Eddi|zuHause> the setting or the feature?
20:27:48  <andythenorth> either
20:27:59  <andythenorth> the setting should be 'off' by default
20:28:03  <andythenorth> and maybe moved to cfg
20:28:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no
20:28:31  <andythenorth> it's a bit weird shipping broken by default
20:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> at best, the feature should be rewritten to use shaders.
20:28:54  <nielsm> it's pallette animation, right?
20:29:06  <andythenorth> yes
20:29:08  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:29:50  <nielsm> how about adding a third setting to it "auto" that disables it when 32 bpp blitter is required
20:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound right
20:30:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean we have 32bpp_anim for a reason
20:30:28  <nielsm> and then fix the video drivers so they can render an 8 bpp surface from the blitter to a 32 bpp surface from the OS
20:30:54  <nielsm> and then allow 8 bpp blitter to be used when an 8bpp baseset is used
20:31:01  <andythenorth> it's interesting how much FIRS industries destroy FFWD
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20:31:05  <andythenorth> maybe I should remove them
20:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: i think the problem is osx specific, not 32bpp specific
20:31:39  <andythenorth> each industry knocks off about 10fps in crude tests
20:31:40  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: if 32bpp were the problem, i think we would have heard from more people
20:32:01  <nielsm> so why is the animation so slow on macos?
20:32:04  <nielsm> that doesn't make sense
20:32:06  <andythenorth> I have heard various explanations
20:32:12  <nielsm> if the blitter itself is fast enough
20:32:19  <andythenorth> the 3 most plausible are:
20:32:23  <nielsm> and video output from the blitter to the os surface is fast enough
20:32:37  <andythenorth> - about 6 years ago graphics card vendors dropped native palette animation in silicon / drivers
20:32:57  <andythenorth> - modern motherboards lack the bandwidth to move textures from CPU to video
20:32:59  <andythenorth> - Apple
20:33:08  <andythenorth> I have NFI if any of those are true
20:33:23  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: i have no useful input to that question
20:33:32  <andythenorth> FTR, Apple tends to get adequate performance out of crap GPUs for both 2D and 3D
20:33:50  <andythenorth> because they ship limited SKUs and tightly bind drivers / OS APIs
20:34:00  <andythenorth> 'adequate', not 'good' :P
20:34:04  <nielsm> this is no more video bandwidth heavy than playing back HD movies
20:34:56  <nielsm> if the blitter can produce the frames fast enough then they should run at full speed
20:37:34  <nielsm> andythenorth: but most importantly, when you turn on "full animation", does it impact the frame times in either drawing or in video output?
20:39:28  <andythenorth> on average, adds between 0.03ms and 0.2ms, depending on which part of map
20:39:42  <andythenorth> video output remains 0.00ms
20:39:54  <andythenorth> or 0.01ms
20:40:12  <andythenorth> I am googling about palette animation
20:40:18  <nielsm> does that account for the loss of total framerate?
20:40:30  <andythenorth> not if I've understand the maths correctly :P
20:40:44  <andythenorth> it's dropping 10-12fps
20:40:57  <nielsm> okay
20:41:39  <nielsm> so while the sum of game loop + drawing + video output is still below 30 ms, the total framerate drops to below 32 fps?
20:41:39  <andythenorth> the only relevant google result so far is the tt-forums thread from 2009, where official Mac support ended for OpenTTD
20:42:27  <andythenorth> sum is about 2.5ms
20:42:41  <andythenorth> framerate is bouncing around 19-20fps, instead of 33-34fps
20:42:59  <nielsm> right, so there is something here that is not being measured
20:43:04  <nielsm> relating to conversion
20:43:13  <nielsm> which blitter are you using, 8bpp or 32bpp?
20:43:31  <andythenorth> LordAro: are the officially supported platforms still correct? o_O :)
20:44:18  <andythenorth> nielsm: whatever is default, I assume it's 32bpp
20:44:24  <andythenorth> there's a console command I can check?
20:44:36  <LordAro> andythenorth: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
20:44:46  <LordAro> not entirely wrong, iirc
20:45:22  <andythenorth> I might just not get sucked into documentation :)
20:45:32  <andythenorth> it's always slightly not fun
20:46:06  <andythenorth> but the platforms here eh
20:47:43  <andythenorth> nielsm: afaict from previous history, the default mac blitter is 32bpp
20:47:50  <andythenorth> since 2010
20:55:41  * andythenorth digging up
20:59:38  <andythenorth> setting blitter to 32bpp-sse2-anim makes no difference
21:01:49  <andythenorth> nielsm: it's very sensitive to window size
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21:24:48  <andythenorth> also bedtime :)
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