Log for #openttd on 28th July 2019:
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01:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, i definitely can't play astroneer with this... where i previously got 40FPS on the titlescreen, i can't even get 1FPS
01:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause> (no idea why, shouldn't be that much of a difference between the two cards)
02:26:59  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas opened issue #7672: Crash when opening Game Options
02:32:37  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0
02:47:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel commented on issue #7670: Road vehicle ticks is higher in YAPF than in NPF
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07:49:10  <andythenorth> hello
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10:02:01  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7670: Road vehicle ticks is higher in YAPF than in NPF
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10:13:39  <Samu> need to post more screenshots
10:14:16  <Samu> i would post a giant screenshot but i doubt ppl would look at it
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10:27:14  <Samu> oh boy this is quite the network
10:29:02  <Samu> map is 1024x1024, the affected vehicles are near the center of the map, a little bit to the north of it
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10:30:59  <Samu> the roads in Brunston, to the south east of those rail lines town are isolated,but the one that goes northwest is connected to a giant network of roads
10:32:46  <Samu> multiple connected roads to several other towns, industries, bridges, a big big network of roads, I would say it can connect to at least most of the entire side of the map, and the left side as well, and I just got into a road that can lead to the south side too, so... it's giant
10:33:45  <Samu> most of the entire *north* side of the map
10:35:22  <Samu> many road AIs in the game
10:35:49  <Samu> and their way of building roads, you can imagine the kind of network that is, if you're familiar with how they build
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10:47:00  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7670: Road vehicle ticks is higher in YAPF than in NPF
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12:12:03  <Samu> LordAro: I found the cause
12:12:24  <Samu> i'm nearly sure it's due to the way the cache works
12:13:06  <Samu> when the road vehicle is about to enter the last tile that is in cache
12:13:14  <Samu> and is stuck in traffic
12:13:18  <Samu> which is the case
12:13:26  <Samu> it calls the pathfinder insistently
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12:14:05  <Samu> vehicle is "moving" at 0 km/h and constantly calling the pathfinder, which take 35000 ms each
12:15:18  <Samu> it happens that the road network is at, is such a big one, it doesn't find a path
12:15:33  <Samu> nothing is cached
12:15:38  <Samu> because it's the last tile
12:15:52  <Samu> so it retries pathfinding all the time
12:16:29  <Samu> dbg: [yapf] [YAPFr]! 368- 37672 us - 10001 rounds - 63 open - 10000 closed - CHR   0.0% - C -1 D -1 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) -- dbg: [yapf] [YAPFr]! 368- 34459 us - 10001 rounds - 63 open - 10000 closed - CHR   0.0% - C -1 D -1 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) -- dbg: [yapf] [YAPFr]! 368- 42715 us - 10001 rounds - 63 open - 10000 closed - CHR   0.0% - C -1 D -1 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) -- dbg: [yapf] [YAPFr]! 368- 33536 us - 10001 rounds - 63 open - 10000 closed - CHR
12:20:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7672: Crash when opening Game Options
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12:33:25  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7670: Road vehicle ticks is higher in YAPF than in NPF
12:37:32  <Samu> I still can't provide a savegame, but this is it
12:40:15  <LordAro> Samu: gj
12:43:36  <Samu> i said northeast, i meant northwest
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13:14:42  <Samu> dual core system limits me so much
13:15:05  <Samu> can't run 2 openttd and youtube at the same time, it's slowing down too much for my liking
13:15:26  <Samu> I want my system back
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13:26:23  <Samu> ppl badmouth the FX cpu series but now that I'm on a dual core system, I really feel limited in how many stuff I can run on it
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13:54:25  <Samu> there's some weird bugs with road consutrction
13:54:39  <Samu> doesn't build the same manner as before
13:55:51  <Samu> "land slopped in wrong direction" ... yeah, kinda true, but the last is already autosloped
13:56:04  <Samu> it fails to detect that
14:04:39  <Samu> im trying to manually build a giant road network
14:11:20  <LordAro> just lots of junctions should do it
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14:11:24  <LordAro> dense as you can
14:11:37  <LordAro> i was using a flat blank map earlier
14:11:40  <LordAro> makes it easier :p
14:13:59  <glx> I'm trying to reproduce #7672
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14:21:51  <glx> hmm unless there are more than 32 resolutions
14:21:59  <glx> let's try something
14:23:13  <Samu> omgggg im so dumb, i built a network on the wrong openttd version
14:23:21  <Samu> fml
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14:26:23  <glx> ok that's it
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14:37:29  <Eddi|zuHause> 32 resolutions ought to be enough for anyone
14:38:01  <glx> yeah but it's now unlimited since
14:38:13  <glx> I need to adapt some code :)
14:38:56  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7672: Crash when opening Game Options
14:48:24  <LordAro> glx: how does more than 32 resolutions break it?
14:49:20  <glx> if (IsInsideMM(ind, (SPECSTR_RESOLUTION_START - 0x70E4), (SPECSTR_RESOLUTION_END - 0x70E4) + 1)) {
14:50:16  <glx> so more than 32 is outside and triggers NOT_REACHED
14:50:38  <LordAro> i see
14:52:51  <Eddi|zuHause> why the magic number 0x70E4?
14:53:13  * LordAro bets reverse engineering reasons
14:53:14  <glx> don't ask ;)
14:53:51  <peter1138> That was so much food
14:53:59  <peter1138> I'm ashamed :/
14:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> just don't eat anything the rest of the week? i'm sure that works.
14:54:33  <peter1138> Yeah no
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14:55:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, youtube, i definitely want to know about 3 powerpoint hacks for instant improvement
14:57:14  <LordAro> who doesn't?
14:58:50  <peter1138> :D
14:58:59  <peter1138> It was the annual cycling club BBQ.
14:59:11  <LordAro> nice
15:02:57  <peter1138> 2 hot dogs and 1 burger, and tons of cheese and salad later... oof, bloated :p
15:03:10  <glx> and beer ?
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15:03:33  <peter1138> 2 pints of session IPA. Other people were doing plenty of drinking.
15:03:39  <LordAro> one of our club members is a pub landlord
15:03:42  <LordAro> which helps with these things
15:04:18  <glx>
15:04:22  <glx> should work
15:05:03  <LordAro> nnyby: ^
15:05:44  <peter1138> Heh, nice.
15:05:59  <glx> string handling is so ugly in openttd ;)
15:06:04  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: would it make sense to do (ind+0xWHATEVER)?
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15:12:49  <glx> hmm could use IsInsideBS() in this case
15:13:16  * andythenorth has found Warcraft 1 in some dosbox thing
15:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> also, give this poor magic number a name?
15:13:29  <andythenorth> my liege
15:14:36  <Eddi|zuHause> so far i found 2 games that i can't play with this GPU
15:15:02  <andythenorth> oof
15:15:09  <glx> there are more than 2 games I can't play with my GPU :)
15:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, games that somewhat worked before
15:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and by "play" i mean "it runs with >5fps"
15:17:47  <glx> my CPU is also an issue for many UE4 games (know issue with sound and some AMD cpu)
15:17:57  <glx> *known
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15:23:05  <peter1138> Bah, SEUS shaders seem to do parallax mapping wrong :/
15:23:31  <peter1138> And my GPU has an issue with TAA with them too, heh.
15:25:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7670: Road vehicle pathing cache does not always pick up changes in road network
15:26:03  <peter1138> Well it's not designed to :p
15:27:02  <LordAro> the issue title isn't great, but it's better than the previous :p
15:27:06  <LordAro> feel free to improve it
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16:27:51  <Samu> oh crap, can't even host a server
16:28:05  <Samu> requires firewall, admin rights
16:28:09  <Samu> this sucks
16:29:25  <Samu> can't even test my stuff properly...
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17:07:42  <Beerbelott> Is there a way to share stations between companies?
17:07:54  <LordAro> no
17:07:56  <Beerbelott> I do not see anything about it in
17:08:25  <Beerbelott> Ah OK. Could that be seen as an improvement, on top of explicit configuration to allow it?
17:08:29  <LordAro> there have been a few infrastructure sharing patches over the years, but they all had issues in some way or another
17:08:37  <Beerbelott> Ah OK
17:11:57  <Samu> just play in the same company?
17:15:01  <Samu> her skin being decoupled, im oversensitive to this crap, feels like I'm watching a horror movie
17:15:32  <LordAro> and you somehow felt it appropriate to link here?
17:15:34  <LordAro> don't do that
17:16:52  <Samu> :( ok
17:17:26  <Samu> because I don't have anybody else to share
17:20:23  <FLHerne> Beerbelott: Note that oil rigs (and newgrf industries with built-in stations) are shared
17:20:48  <FLHerne> So you can transfer cargo between companies, just inconveniently
17:21:38  <FLHerne> Doing so breaks the payment system -- the company doing final delivery gets all the income -- which was one of the main problems with the patches
17:22:54  <FLHerne> (tracking all hops for each cargo-packet would be badly inefficient, and payment on transfer between companies is exploitable for cheating)
17:23:58  <Eddi|zuHause> bah, it's so annoying when you lose a world wonder like 2 turns before finishing it
17:24:13  <FLHerne> Are these like the AoE ones?
17:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the Civ ones
17:24:39  <Eddi|zuHause> whoever finishes it first, gets the bonus
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17:33:14  <Samu> pay backwards
17:34:58  <Samu> cargo packets would need to store some additional info perhaps
17:40:03  <Samu> how would the income slice for each transfer round be computed
17:49:12  <peter1138> Isn't that quite the question?
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18:17:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7652: Fix #7635: Game crash on exit scenario editor.
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18:30:59  <LordAro> peter1138: ^ thoughts?
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18:34:26  <Eddi|zuHause> meanwhile:
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19:04:45  <Beerbelott> FLHerne: Yeah I was wondering about those "Transfer" payments... Just remembered the payment is not done until a green income pops up...
19:05:04  <Beerbelott> That's a game mechanic, which makes sharing actually dangerous
19:05:12  <Beerbelott> Not a bad mechanic though
19:05:16  <Beerbelott> but uncontrollable
19:06:15  <FLHerne> Beerbelott: Right
19:06:28  <Beerbelott> About transfer payments... Is value 100% retained for transfered cargo? Or is there some loss?
19:06:36  <Beerbelott> I suppose there must be some decaying
19:07:01  <FLHerne> Beerbelott: Cargo value is based on time-in-transit, not counting waiting at stations
19:07:15  <Beerbelott> Hence no decaying at all?
19:07:53  <FLHerne> Under the 'charts' button there's a set of graphs of "average speed -> payment rate" per cargo
19:07:57  <FLHerne> Times distance
19:08:02  <FLHerne> No
19:08:30  <FLHerne> Although if there's too much cargo at a station, or too long between trains, some can just outright vanish
19:08:49  <Beerbelott> Well transferring from trains to buses hurt because for the final leg speed sinks greatly, but I saw buses delivering for a couple kilo while normally it's usually a couple hundreds :D
19:09:25  <Beerbelott> OK thx for that
19:10:18  <FLHerne> The transfer "payments" are entirely estimated - they're just x% of what /would/ be paid if it was delivered right there
19:10:24  <FLHerne> (x is configurable)
19:11:23  <FLHerne> And the final payment is the real income, minus fictitious transfer payments already shown
19:12:01  <FLHerne> So it's negative if the last vehicle was much slower than average, or the cargo followed a very indirect route
19:15:44  <Samu> cargodist likes to do that
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19:21:21  <Beerbelott> Hmm does that mean using buses on endlinks to distribute cargo round town is a bad habit and the station should rather be separated from the bus network in order to maximize profit?
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19:39:37  <nielsm> Beerbelott: the buses are probably still making more than they cost to run, just the transfer calculation misrepresents it
19:40:56  <Samu> - shamanistic chanting or some sorts
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19:55:53  <Samu> I wish random ais avoided repeating the same ai
19:56:09  <Samu> if there are more ais to chose from
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20:29:08  <Beerbelott> nielsm: Sure, but comparing a scenario where trains deliver/take cargo from a seperate station from a bus loop to another scenario where trains connect to one of the buses' station, if cargo transfer loses value, one way of another (buses being much slower than trains, ending payment lowered by fictious transfer money I'll never see, etc), wouldn't the "disconnected" scenario be more profitable?
20:30:00  <Beerbelott> At least the generated cargo would not suffer from the "transfer" mechanism. One of the q° being if the generated cargo volume would then be the same or not
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20:40:47  <andythenorth> lol
20:40:56  <andythenorth> after 3 hours of original Warcraft 1 in dosbox
20:41:10  <andythenorth> OpenTTD looks ridiculously high-res
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20:48:46  <FLHerne> Beerbelott: Yes
20:49:47  <FLHerne> Beerbelott: But, as with everything else, the optimal way to make money (by a huge margin) is with airports in the map corners
20:50:53  <Beerbelott> Ouch, did you just confirm connecting stations actually *lowers* profit?
20:50:59  <FLHerne> Or, failing that, the fastest available train
20:51:07  <FLHerne> There's no remotely financially-optimal game plan that gives road vehicles any consideration at all
20:51:37  <Beerbelott> That I know of
20:52:06  <FLHerne> Yes (if you do have road vehicles, for profit you should have them feed /into/ a higher-speed network, then have no-load orders)
20:52:27  <Beerbelott> But road vehicles allow quick & basic coverage of relatively small town (those for which a single train station won't encompass them)
20:52:45  <Beerbelott> Aha!
20:52:58  <FLHerne> I just disagree that "ouch" really applies, because playing OTTD for financial optimality is no fun anyway
20:53:16  <Beerbelott> Hence, since there won't be loading, that would mean 4 stops for twon growth + a 5th one for train loading
20:53:50  <FLHerne> Something like that, yep
20:53:58  <Beerbelott> FLHerne: Well. I'll leave that to each & everyone appreciation on how to play management transportation games
20:54:04  <FLHerne> (I've done that sort of thing in CityBuilder games)
20:54:21  <Beerbelott> Thx for all that :)
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20:56:21  <Samu> i miss my cats
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21:16:23  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Nik-mmzd commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0
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21:20:28  <Samu> clever bot vs copy paste
21:26:37  <Samu>
21:26:56  <Samu> uninteresting...
21:39:19  <Samu> well, cyas
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