Log for #openttd on 10th September 2019:
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08:30:55  <Samu> PASS is beating PASS & MAIL, and MAIL
08:32:38  <Samu> can't say I'm surprised, it's Hereford Leopard bus era, the mail truck engine is still the first model
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10:34:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sirkoz commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date
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11:56:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date
11:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause> (i hope i didn't overstep any lines)
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12:04:22  <planetmaker> sound argument IMHO @ Eddi|zuHause
12:05:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date
12:05:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date
12:07:12  <planetmaker> <-- maybe it should contain version ranges... like Windows XP supported till 1.8.0 or so
12:08:20  <planetmaker> 95/98 is not supported at least according to our download page
12:09:22  * andythenorth has a modest proposal
12:09:28  <andythenorth> officially support nothing :P
12:09:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't help anyone :p
12:09:51  <andythenorth> probably far too time consuming
12:10:03  <andythenorth> policies are only valuable as far as they save time
12:10:14  <andythenorth> and thinking
12:10:35  <andythenorth> is anyone in charge any more?
12:10:47  <andythenorth> I know rubidium isn't, and I thought truebrain might be, for a bit
12:10:55  <andythenorth> but now I'm not sure :)
12:11:05  <andythenorth> rotating presidency, like the EU? o_O
12:11:10  <Eddi|zuHause> putting TrueBrain in charge of anything sounds like a bad idea :p
12:11:44  * andythenorth back to PECR, GDPR and ISO 27001
12:11:47  <andythenorth> policy max
12:11:55  <andythenorth> also lunch
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12:29:10  <peter1139> It was.
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13:57:07  <andythenorth> it was
13:57:22  <nielsm> was it?
14:10:01  <milek7> for the record, i checked 1.9.2 on winxp and sorting works fine
14:13:16  <andythenorth> allegedly not ?
14:14:59  <nielsm> it probably depends on the compiler/stdlib used
14:15:31  <milek7> tested 32bit installer from
14:16:17  <nielsm> okay so it actually works... impressive
14:16:40  <andythenorth> I dis-enjoyed the tone of the comment so I closed it
14:16:56  <andythenorth> I don't think it's lost in translation, I think it's just tedious angry entitlement
14:17:07  <andythenorth> if it was supposed to be lolz, the emoji was missing
14:17:08  <nielsm> the reporter probably read some smartypants guide about how to improve file system performance by disabling modification times recording
14:17:21  <nielsm> and is then surprised when applications that request the mtime of files gets nothing
14:17:24  <andythenorth> it's a waste of our time IMHO and no fun
14:17:31  <andythenorth> OpenTTD should be fun
14:17:38  <andythenorth> main criteria :P
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14:21:02  <andythenorth> milek7: thanks for checking though :)
14:22:30  <milek7> oh
14:22:34  <milek7> i'm dumb
14:23:13  <milek7> give me few minutes, i need to check that again ;P
14:24:28  * andythenorth has to go
14:24:41  <andythenorth> new modest proposal: support OS on the same basis as the OS vendor
14:24:49  <andythenorth> I think that's what we're doing for Apple already
14:24:59  <andythenorth> last 2 major revs
14:26:05  <andythenorth> BIAB
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14:39:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a difference between "actively supported" and "if it happens to work, great"
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14:48:01  <nielsm> our readme file says windows is supported, but not which versions, it's reasonable to interpret that as just the versions supported by the vendor
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14:48:30  <planetmaker> Then we should update the web page(s) :)
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14:54:27  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking about this
14:54:51  <andythenorth> we don't do 'supported' like a paid product, because all the reasons
14:55:18  <andythenorth> 'supported' AFAICT relates to the binaries we'll produce on the compile farm
14:55:30  <andythenorth> and then what compilers etc we'll work with
14:56:05  <andythenorth> which affects what we might take as a master PR (support / maintain for minority platforms)
14:56:25  <andythenorth> that's my impression from last 18 months anyway
14:57:02  <andythenorth> we seem to be naturally open to support, unless it affects (for example) C++ versions and standards, cmake, etc
14:57:14  <planetmaker> there's basically two levels of "supported": "provide binary" and "support with code, but don't provide binary"
14:57:40  <planetmaker> like "solaris" was never supported in binary - but there supposedly is all the code to make it work there w/o errors
14:57:42  <andythenorth> there's one level that's really important IMHO
14:58:21  <andythenorth> -> if a maintainer goes to effort for a minority platform on the understanding that we support it, then we need to drop it because of upstream reasons -> not going to go well
14:58:53  <andythenorth> I think we can be upfront about that, without in any way committing to fix all bugs for supported platform x, which is a different issue
14:59:16  <planetmaker> "active support" vs. "passive support"?
14:59:23  <andythenorth> something like that
14:59:43  <planetmaker> And yes, making that distinction might be good.
14:59:47  <andythenorth> 'our choices of coding standards, supported compilers etc is determined by support policy x'
15:00:04  <planetmaker> sounds already burocratic ;)
15:00:08  <andythenorth> 'we may accept PRs for other OSes, but with no guarantee of forwards compatibility'
15:00:14  <andythenorth> I know, it's bureacracy :(
15:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> bürokröte?
15:01:16  <nielsm> nobody on the dev team cares about making sure everything is flawless on XP, therefore nothing is tested there and nothing is done about bug reports about it
15:01:27  <planetmaker> Just simple: "We actively develop for currently supported versions of Windows, Linux and OSX. We accept pull-requests to support other platforms, but cannot assure to maintain them
15:02:07  <planetmaker> ...currently vendor-supported versions of...
15:02:07  <andythenorth> for macOS it's already de-facto "we don't support versions of macOS that are no longer supported by Apple"
15:02:09  <andythenorth> which is last 2
15:02:13  <andythenorth> simple policy
15:02:53  <planetmaker> for windows it's also the de-facto standard
15:03:01  <planetmaker> after all: no-one sane uses unsupported windoze
15:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's different for mac, because it's difficult to compile. but on windows, once it works, it probably keeps working.
15:03:11  <andythenorth> I love a microsoft document :P
15:03:22  <nielsm> FACT SHEET!
15:03:22  <planetmaker> but "keeps working" is different from "we actively check that it works"
15:03:44  <andythenorth> yes
15:03:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i meant with my opening statement.
15:03:52  <andythenorth> we actively check nothing
15:03:54  <andythenorth> it's GPL
15:03:57  <andythenorth> no guarantees etc
15:04:53  <andythenorth> Apple is simple
15:05:04  <andythenorth> MS is maybe simple, if anyone can make sense of the fact sheet
15:05:09  <andythenorth> Linux I have NFI :)
15:05:23  <andythenorth> Solaris NFI
15:05:29  <andythenorth> *BSD, especially FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD NFI :)
15:05:41  <andythenorth> I used solaris once 22 years ago maybe
15:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> linux is too fractured, and we mostly rely on the downstream maintainers
15:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> we only provide binaries for the most popular platforms, debian and ubuntu, but you can compile it on most other modern distros, and many distros include it
15:07:24  <andythenorth> if we can put a policy in a paste or gist, I will format it and put it in the website
15:07:39  <andythenorth> or even we could just have one support policy, in github,
15:07:41  <andythenorth> and not 3
15:20:10  <peter1139> "Assigned #7733 to @PeterN." < lol
15:20:59  <andythenorth> sounds like my day job
15:21:32  <andythenorth> 7733 is an outage report :P
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17:04:09  <milek7> nielsm:
17:04:14  <milek7> about that sorting:
17:04:14  <milek7> it indeed doesn't work
17:04:14  <milek7> i got confused because it still sorts by name, and missed that it didn't sort correctly.. ;P
17:04:14  <milek7> trying to debug this i got completely sidetracked by FiosIsValidFile, which reads modification time from WIN32_FIND_DATA, and it is correct
17:04:14  <milek7> but FiosFileScanner doesn't use that data and reads once more, from _tstat, which as implemented in CRT uses kernel32.dll:GetFileInformationByHandleEx
17:04:16  <milek7> ..and as docs specify, "Minimum supported client: Windows Vista"
17:04:18  <milek7> and it doesn't crash outright because it uses GetProcAddress to resolve that symbol
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17:04:42  <milek7> i guess switching to *_xp toolchain would be more compatible
17:08:14  <frosch123> someone wants to do an interview with some american/romanian pupils?
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17:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause> what would that accomplish?
17:19:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: do they have a question? :)
17:19:55  <frosch123> no, they ask whether they may send question
17:20:13  <frosch123> but they want to write an article in their highscool magazine
17:21:05  <frosch123> though considering it's a highschool, they probably want to write about playing the game, not about deving it
17:21:34  <frosch123> so, maybe some goal server dude wants to advertise their community? :p
17:22:22  <frosch123>
17:22:43  <frosch123> that's their "reference"
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17:28:11  <Wolf01> o/
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17:33:24  <andythenorth> did anyone figure out the MS roadmap? o_O
17:33:33  <andythenorth> and is my suggested approach valid?
17:35:44  <andythenorth> hmm, do we trust wiki-sometimes-not-very-accurate?
17:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause> no.
17:40:48  <andythenorth> to all 3? :)
17:45:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:47  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:47:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date
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18:16:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation
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18:43:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation
18:47:40  <andythenorth> hmm
18:47:45  * andythenorth tanks or horse?
18:48:23  <andythenorth> FWIW ratings always trip me up
18:48:40  <andythenorth> I always allocate a train with about 1 month's capacity relative to industry production
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18:48:52  <andythenorth> forgetting that I'll get at best about 0.69 of that
18:49:03  <andythenorth> doesn't really affect gameplay though
18:49:27  <andythenorth> I did play FIRS with 100% station rating for about a year, but it's potato / potato
18:50:34  <Samu> listening to "a forest"
18:50:55  <Samu>
18:54:40  <Samu> the last mail truck is only available from 2018 or 19, right?
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18:55:50  <Samu> current results disappoint me
18:56:00  <Samu> PASS > MAIL > PASS&MAIL
18:58:49  <Samu> on the bright side, it's actually interesting that MAIL is performing so well
18:59:31  <Samu> but I was expecting PASS&MAIL to be the better
18:59:35  <supermop_work> andythenorth: i usually build 1 mo capacity
18:59:56  <supermop_work> and accept that it will run slightly under utilized
19:00:15  <glx> PASS&MAIL should be better I think, maybe your code is wrong :)
19:01:07  <supermop_work> i think i messed up with bus introduction generations
19:01:43  <Samu> it's because engine models are better for PASS
19:02:03  <Samu> faster, more capacity
19:02:25  <Samu> but still... PASS&MAIL should be at least 2nd place, it's 3rd
19:02:35  <supermop_work> huh?
19:03:21  <Samu> it's the year 2009, superbus is coming, maybe now it'll get 2nd place
19:03:46  <Samu> and PASS will be even further ahead
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19:09:34  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> to all 3? :) <-- yes
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19:40:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date
19:44:20  <nielsm> andythenorth: the MS lifecycle page tells nothing about XP because it's completely out of support :) it does tell that win7 will leave extended support january next year, so probably visual studio 2020 or 2021 will default to a runtime that targets win8.1 minimum
19:44:50  <andythenorth> can we use this information?
19:45:20  <andythenorth> :)
19:45:29  <andythenorth> does it help our cause?
19:45:44  <glx> windows 10 1803 will be phased out soon
19:45:46  <nielsm> it's difficult to beat people over the head with a rolled up paper that no longer exists :D
19:46:11  <nielsm> someone argued that MS released a patch for XP recently
19:46:29  <andythenorth> lolz and so on
19:46:36  <nielsm> that was for an extremely wormable exploit and was done to protect the internet at large from the idiots still running xp
19:46:38  <andythenorth> I have to deal with this crap sometimes for things like IE, and SSL
19:46:46  <andythenorth> and who supports what
19:47:00  <andythenorth> and historically my customer base are amongst the last to upgrade :P
19:48:13  <glx> I remember the time even 9x was present in msdn, but they removed all old versions from the docs
19:48:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "the idiots still running xp" <-- and the companies that have machines built 20 years ago that they can neither update nor replace
19:49:03  <glx> there are still NT4 systems IIRC
19:50:03  <nielsm> majority of my users are in healthcare, and I can't remember when I last saw an XP machine in regular use
19:50:29  <nielsm> (only one I know of it an isolated VM used to access historical data from an ancient system, used a few times a year)
19:51:00  <glx> yeah I have an XP VM just for using my scanner
19:51:12  <glx> because the driver is 32bit only
19:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> a few years ago there was an airport in paris that had to shut down because they didn't find someone to maintain their win 3.1 system
19:52:27  <glx> not surprising
19:52:53  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently the 3 people authorised/trained to handle it all were busy/on vacation
19:52:53  <glx> why renew something if it still works
19:53:22  <glx> new software is often broken
19:53:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, like win 10 updates that delete all your files :p
19:54:14  <glx> that's why COBOL is still in use in some places
19:55:40  <Eddi|zuHause> they had an old XP-era server at my last company, that they were trying to phase out
19:55:44  <nielsm> well COBOL has two things going for it, it's common and it's business-oriented
19:57:55  <nielsm> end of discussion.
20:05:11  <nielsm> :P
20:07:23  <Samu> COmmon and Business-Oriented L
20:07:44  <nielsm> congratulations you win a peanut
20:09:54  <Samu> COBOL (/ˈkoʊbɒl, -bɔːl/; an acronym for "common business-oriented language")
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20:10:33  <nielsm> lol
20:10:45  <glx> nice one
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20:17:28  <andythenorth> oh dear :)
20:17:30  <andythenorth> come back samu
20:17:32  <andythenorth> all is forgiven
20:49:34  <LordAro> "autokilled"
20:49:38  <LordAro> amazing
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