Log for #openttd on 16th October 2019:
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01:29:17  <supermop_pdx> is there like an opposite of voronoi?
01:31:34  <supermop_pdx> where the lines go through the points?
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02:56:07  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_elsewhere: yes, delaunay triangulation
02:57:18  <Eddi|zuHause> (you get the delaunay triangulation by drawing the perpendiculars to the voronoi partition, and vice versa)
02:58:09  <Eddi|zuHause> (so long as you are in a space which satisfies the parallelogram equation, otherwise there exists no delaunay triangulation)
02:58:37  <Eddi|zuHause> (for 2-d that means euclidean distance)
03:14:59  <supermop_elsewhere> making 'buildings' at random points with a shape of their voronoi cell looks ok but not totally natural
03:16:00  <supermop_elsewhere> because plots of land are often shaped by paths between points of interest rather than zones around points
03:16:19  <supermop_elsewhere> i keep getting weird shogi piece shapes
03:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause> no clue what you're talking about
03:17:40  <supermop_elsewhere> me neither
03:19:09  <supermop_elsewhere>
03:22:03  <Eddi|zuHause> so what's the problem?
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03:25:14  <Eddi|zuHause> still no clue what a shogi piece is meant to be
03:27:10  <supermop_elsewhere> polygons that are too exagerated along one direction i guess
03:29:31  <supermop_elsewhere> i guess trying to make a cluster of shapes based on voronoi cells will never look that natural as a 'city' because there is no connection for circulation
03:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> no, cities are not usually growing as voronoi cells, but if you zoom out one layer, and consider villages growing into cities, that may result in vaguely voronoi-y cells
03:37:19  <Eddi|zuHause> then you're not on building level, but on city quarter level
03:37:52  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can start with voronoi cells, fill each with some kind of road grid or something, and then fill in the buildings
03:37:52  <supermop_elsewhere> yeah
03:38:09  <supermop_elsewhere> tokyo is kind of voronoi-y as it formed that way
03:38:43  <supermop_elsewhere> the big avenues have the structure of cell borders between cells/villages
03:39:04  <supermop_elsewhere> but inside each cell is more fractal like growth
03:40:40  <supermop_elsewhere> here in new york the borders between the boroughs are too strongly based instead on existing geography
03:41:18  <supermop_elsewhere> and within each borough the borders between neighborhoods too arbitrary at points on the grid
03:41:42  <supermop_elsewhere> i don't knoe how most german cities grew though
03:44:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the usual pattern of city growth in europe is that you have this medieval core with usually a large market place and narrow roads, then there's some kind of ring road where the city wall was, and the post-industrial growth areas which were added step by step, often replacing surrounding villages. and then the post-industrial growth, which is usually incorporating more villages, and filling the space inbetween with suburb-y structures
03:44:36  <Eddi|zuHause> err, first "post-" should be omitted
03:45:22  <supermop_elsewhere> do the villages grow outward until they meet the edge of the city and are absorbed? or does the city outpace them and envelope them?
03:46:36  <Eddi|zuHause> in the industrial area, the city outpaces them, later, they get absorbed politically, and then start growing
03:47:09  <Eddi|zuHause> -area, +era
03:47:24  <Eddi|zuHause> brain is a bit wonky it seems :p
03:48:47  <supermop_elsewhere> well it is pretty late in germany
03:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> in east germany it's even weirder, with the suburbanisation movement being overlapped by migration into the west
04:05:05  <supermop_elsewhere> well i'm going to bed no
04:05:09  <supermop_elsewhere> now
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07:11:40  <andythenorth> ouch, this is like an object lesson in missing the point :|
07:11:41  <andythenorth>
07:19:00  <andythenorth> oof I think I have to join reddit :(
07:19:10  <andythenorth> it has won, tt-forums has lost
07:19:16  <andythenorth> sad day
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07:32:48  <LordAro> good ol kamnet
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07:54:42  <crem> I don't understand reddit. It somehow doesn't have a sequence in which I should read stuff.
07:56:45  <andythenorth> I think you're supposed to keep refreshing or something
07:56:51  <andythenorth> probably drives ad views
07:59:39  <LordAro> crem: replies are nested under the parent
07:59:43  <LordAro> other than that, any order
07:59:53  <LordAro> it's default sorted by number of "votes"
08:01:33  <crem> Yes, but suppose I have 5 free minutes, so I read some threads in some subreddits. Then if I return 2 hours later, I don't know what to do. Should I go a reread the same threads looking for new comments? Should I look for new interesting threads among old ones?..
08:05:29  <planetmaker> he... yes, answers are totally on a tangent :) Who is funny_filth?
08:07:47  <LordAro> crem: in general, i never go back to threads i've already read once :p
08:08:08  <LordAro> (unless i get a reply to something)
08:09:04  <LordAro> planetmaker: someone who knows andythenorth well enough to know where his twitter is...
08:11:40  <planetmaker> -.-
08:13:00  <planetmaker> @crem: you probably should click "sort by ... newest"
08:13:17  <planetmaker> (changing away from the default "sort by best". whatever that means
08:14:13  <crem> I don't want newest, I want best among unread. :)  Anyway, I don't really read reddit, but I tried several times. I even installed app once!
08:14:44  <planetmaker> yeah... it's somewhat designed to keep you around. Not to help you get things done or read
08:21:13  <andythenorth> but it has nice screenshots
08:21:21  <andythenorth> which I want to add to OpenTTD site
08:21:23  <peter1138> andythenorth, what is kamnet going on about? Lol
08:21:31  <andythenorth> so I might have to join the damn thing
08:21:31  <andythenorth> crossed wires I think
08:21:40  <peter1138> I'm already on reddit.
08:21:45  <andythenorth> also reddit is where the action is
08:21:54  <andythenorth> forums are now jgr-pp-forums
08:22:04  <andythenorth> nothing to do with official OpenTTD any more
08:22:04  <planetmaker> nah
08:22:05  <crem> Hm, 512x512 maps feels a bit tight..  Probably I should switch to 1024x1024 next time.
08:22:17  <andythenorth> adventure :D
08:22:35  <planetmaker> lol. 256x256 is the spirit ;)
08:22:42  <peter1138> 256x256 are too big for me.
08:22:50  <andythenorth> I tried 256x128 but my savegame broke so I can't screenshot it
08:22:58  <andythenorth> it was nice though
08:23:28  <peter1138> I'm gonna follow @andyfacts, he doesn't follow anyone else I follow. He'll get me out of my echo chamber!
08:24:19  <crem> Somehow I enjoy huge networks more than nicely tuned junctions etc.
08:24:31  <andythenorth> peter1138: I mostly don't use Twitter
08:24:34  <peter1138> Me neither.
08:24:41  <crem> My "junctions" are quite a shame to show..
08:24:42  <andythenorth> I did, but then I wanted to get things done
08:24:46  <peter1138> But at least I know your "real" online identity now ;p
08:24:57  <andythenorth> twitter is either fascism, or people whining about fascism
08:25:01  <andythenorth> mostly
08:26:02  <andythenorth> so we're gonna have a big gap in screenshots :P
08:26:12  <andythenorth> 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8 will be missing :P
08:26:32  <andythenorth> I'm going to find a bunch of 1.9x screenshots and add them
08:28:08  <crem> Btw, does anyone have a good example of dense+diverse+detailed map to print as a poster?  Where can I get a map which is shown behind openttd's main menu?
08:31:11  <andythenorth> planetmaker: btw recommendations are to contact one of the existing FOSS orgs for help
08:31:24  <andythenorth> or
08:32:54  <planetmaker> hm, yeah, maybe FSFE is a good choice in starting to get advice
08:33:21  <andythenorth> well maybe TB is here this evening and we can agree which to approach
08:33:32  * andythenorth must to work
08:33:38  <planetmaker> what does o rud ge think?
08:33:38  <andythenorth> endless burocracy must be face
08:33:56  <planetmaker> he basically is our bureaucrat :D
08:34:01  <andythenorth> I will DM o rudge later and aask
08:34:06  <andythenorth> oof typing
08:34:09  <andythenorth> BIAB
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08:34:11  <planetmaker> T B is our CTO :P
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08:38:52  <crem> Many people from FSF are in #gnu channel at freenode, they are quite responsive there. They also offer email support which is a bit less helpful (takes few weeks to respond, and every second sentence is "warning: this is not a legal advice", probably because of US laws).
08:39:15  <crem> But what exactly is the problem?
08:40:00  <peter1138> With what?
08:40:18  <peter1138> I mean, who said there's a problem?
08:40:50  <crem> What is the topic you want to contact FSF about?
08:42:25  <peter1138> Hmm, it was there originally.
08:43:04  <peter1138>
08:43:07  <crem> Do you need to setup proper way to collect donations?. We at lczero project avoid doing that as hard as we can, but there is e.g. lichess which is FOSS and they have proper entity registered.
08:43:48  <peter1138> It's to do with having some entity to deal with these companies that don't want to deal with entity-less things.
08:44:22  <peter1138> The discussion started with Apple's new software notarizing stuff on Catalina.
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08:44:59  <peter1138> Hmm, should I use iSCSI or NFS?
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08:48:15  <planetmaker> hm...
08:49:20  <planetmaker> @crem, well... the problem is not how to collect donations. That works currently quite well (I think). More that you can say "it's really us, OpenTTD" as opposed to getting back "you are just one guy working on OpenTTD, what can you say?"
08:50:55  <crem> Yeah, now I understand.
08:53:32  <peter1138> And it's not really a problem, it's just investigating ways and means.
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09:22:55  <LordAro> andythenorth: could add screenshots of the title games for 1.{5,6,7,8}
09:23:12  <andythenorth> not a bad idea
09:23:15  <andythenorth> if we want to retcon it
09:26:30  <planetmaker> I like that idea
09:26:54  <andythenorth> I can approve a PR if someone does it :P
09:27:18  <andythenorth> I will trade that with finding a lot of nice 1.9x screenshots and captioning them
09:31:03  <LordAro> ^^
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09:46:04  <crem> Can you guess version from screenshot? :) They all look the same.
09:48:12  <peter1138> Yeah
10:03:15  <planetmaker> about every major version since 1.0 has a unique starting screen. Dev builds all have the same
10:44:54  <peter1138> Oh no, I just discovered alt-; on Windows :/
10:45:27  <peter1138> win-; even
10:47:48  <LordAro> 👍👍👍
11:42:22  <peter1138> Nearly salad time!
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12:01:49  <peter1138> Possibly salad time.
12:05:07  <peter1138> Macaroni cheese time?
12:05:28  <andythenorth> don't have any
12:05:29  <andythenorth> toast
12:05:45  <andythenorth> probably salad, including out of date lettuce
12:31:12  <peter1138> I have out-of-date crisps.
12:31:30  <peter1138> Like, 2018-12-29 ...
12:32:00  <planetmaker> that is... a bit. But it's crisps
12:32:18  <planetmaker> and it's a "best before" date, not a "explodes latest at"
12:33:16  <peter1138> Maybe I should try one, then write back and say I'm dissatisified...
12:33:36  <frosch123> my salt is labeled for 2016
12:33:49  <frosch123> i guess i do not cook with enough salt?
12:34:20  <peter1138> How does salt go off anyway? I suppose it could get soggy or otherwise contaminated.
12:34:22  <andythenorth> wtf
12:34:28  <peter1138> (Also, low-sodium salt, why?)
12:34:33  <andythenorth> how does a preservative go out of date?
12:34:55  <andythenorth> my friend ended up in A&E due to low-sodium salt, avoid it
12:34:59  <andythenorth> very super dangerous
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12:37:45  <peter1138> Ok, taste and texture is fine.
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12:38:06  <peter1138> What's dangerous about it?
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12:38:52  <peter1138> Other than the general "not enough salt".
12:39:12  <frosch123> maybe they substitute the sodium with rubidium
12:42:09  <andythenorth> if your hangover solution is to drink 2-3 pints of very salty water
12:42:18  <andythenorth> the low-sodium causes a kidney problem
12:42:40  <andythenorth> loops of henle or something
12:42:59  <peter1138> Um
12:43:13  <milek7> wtf is low-sodium salt? it contains sodium by definition
12:44:01  <peter1138> Apparently it contains potassium chloride as well as sodium chloride.
12:44:33  <frosch123> milek7: no, salt means alkali+halogen
12:47:13  <milek7> technically, but I didn't expect other chemical salts to be sold as table salt ;P
12:49:19  <frosch123> regular table salt is like 95% sodium-chloride
12:49:49  <frosch123> there is often *-flurid or potassium-* included
12:51:16  <frosch123> or -iodine
12:58:11  <crem> Does anyone use timetables?
12:59:28  <peter1138> Nobody.
12:59:41  <frosch123> you can use timed loading/unloading if you do not want "full load"
13:00:02  <frosch123> but timed travel caused more trouble than help for me
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13:01:31  <peter1138> Mmm, time travel.
13:01:37  <crem> I mean do you find them useful?.. It would be nice to have it "for realism", but as there's no real periodicity, it's not real timetable. And for optimization.. I kind of hesitate to try it, especially given that I have lots of easier things to optimize if I wanted.
13:02:15  <frosch123> there is some 24h patch, which some people obsess about
13:02:42  <peter1138> The only useful thing is to try and keep vehicles apart so you don't have to use full-load to stop them bunching up and leaving empty.
13:02:50  <peter1138> But it's always been fragile and too much bother for me.
13:02:54  <frosch123> but as said: setting loading to 5 days for all stops and not restricting travel time allows for some continous cargo flow
13:02:59  <frosch123> without being blocked by full load
13:03:08  <frosch123> and without vehicles sticking together
13:03:15  <peter1138> And pointless later in the game when you have way too much units to feasibly move all of it.
13:04:33  <frosch123> the main reason for vehicles bunching up is when the first vehicle takes all cargo, and the next one leaves immediately because of no cargo. timed loading solves that issue and keeps vehicles N days apart
13:14:14  <andythenorth> timetables don't work
13:14:38  <andythenorth> I've followed the instructions
13:14:47  <andythenorth> I don't understand the obsession with them, they are a non-feature
13:14:52  <andythenorth> :P
13:15:25  <andythenorth> actually, more accurate statement: auto-separation does not work
13:15:29  <andythenorth> timed loading works great
13:15:43  <andythenorth> auto-separation absolutely does not work every time I tried it
13:16:36  <supermop_elsewhere> timetables  work fine for me
13:16:42  <supermop_elsewhere> use them on everything
13:18:10  <andythenorth> how do they work?
13:18:21  <andythenorth> isn't it totally weird to nerf the vehicle speed?
13:19:16  <Sacro> How do you get a vehicle to depart "not empty"
13:19:21  <Sacro> Rather than waiting until full
13:25:49  <andythenorth> probably by using conditional orders and sending it in a loop to reload until x% full
13:26:00  <andythenorth> sometimes the solutions seem...'interesting'
13:26:13  <Sacro> eeeeesh
13:26:36  <andythenorth> obviously it would be madness to have 'load x%' order
13:26:52  <andythenorth> it might get in the way of all the conditional orders that are VERY ESSENTIAL TO SERIOUS PLAY
13:38:08  <peter1138>
13:38:14  <peter1138> £159.99 for a game controller...
13:40:21  <andythenorth> please send 2
13:41:13  <peter1138> Yeah
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14:01:26  <Sacro> Does it work with OpenTTD?
14:02:39  <Sacro> Ooh, it has flappy paddles
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14:03:26  <supermop_elsewhere> andythenorth: i rarely set the speed limits
14:06:40  <stefino> hi. vehicle's property "road_type" means on what roads can this vehicle goes?
14:07:35  <nielsm> afaik it's a single road type, not multiple
14:08:05  <nielsm> road types then specify their "compatible with", meaning "vehicles that can run on these roadtypes can also run on me"
14:10:07  <nielsm> exactly the same way as railtypes work
14:12:20  <stefino> yes so have a situation - three roadtypes RT1,RT2,RT3. I set in RT1 - powered_roadtypes: RT2,RT3. And in vehicles properties set road_type: RT1. It means that the vehicle can run on all three roadtypes but I can see it only in RT1 depot?
14:12:44  <planetmaker> <-- the NewGRF wiki knows nothing about road types property for vehicles? Or do I miss it?
14:13:04  <nielsm> roadtypes docs haven't been merged yet
14:13:05  <frosch123> planetmaker: noone knows what got implemented
14:13:10  <planetmaker> lol
14:14:31  <planetmaker> he... roadtypes *and* tram types? according to links to non-existing wiki pages... :|
14:19:22  <andythenorth>
14:19:24  <andythenorth>
14:19:30  <andythenorth> I am working on it
14:19:42  <andythenorth> to be fair, peter1138 does know what got implemented, as does the code :)
14:19:56  <andythenorth> and I am working examples which exercise the spec
14:20:02  <andythenorth> working on *
14:20:09  <stefino> nice :)
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14:21:57  <andythenorth> stefino: Road Hog does use roadtypes and tramtypes, and works
14:22:03  <andythenorth> it's quite simple cases though
14:23:05  <andythenorth> oh wrong branch, try
14:23:53  <andythenorth> seems I don't use compatible types list yet
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14:27:39  <stefino> yes I have it similar, only need to understand how compatible property works. Cause I thought that roadtype defines on which other roadtypes can its vehicle runs and on the other hand I can define in the vehicle properties in whitch depots will this vehicle appears
14:28:49  <nielsm> if roadtype A marks itself compatible with roadtypes B and C, then vehicles made for roadtype A can only run on A, vehicles for roadtype B can run on A and B, and vehicles for roadtype C can run on A and C
14:28:52  <nielsm> as far as I understand
14:30:42  <stefino> "The road-/tramtypes specify, which other tracktypes their vehicles can drive on." from wiki
14:31:25  <stefino> so if I will buy vehicle on roadtype A, it will run on A,b and C or not?
14:31:35  <andythenorth> depends on roadtype A
14:31:51  <andythenorth> hmm actually I'm not sure
14:31:55  <nielsm> in my example, if you build a depot of roadtype A it will only have vehicles for roadtype A
14:32:01  <andythenorth> I never did understand compatibility
14:32:04  <nielsm> if you build a depot for roadtype B it will have vehicles for types A and B
14:32:37  <stefino> andy: yes, it is a little bit crazy :D
14:32:46  <stefino> nielsim: I will try it :)
14:32:56  <nielsm> high speed rail (A) is compatible with low speed rail (B), but low speed rail is not compatible with high speed rail
14:33:34  <nielsm> (assuming the high speed rail trains require some safety equipment the low speed track does not have)
14:34:14  <nielsm> "compatible with" could also be called "also accepts vehicles of types"
14:35:26  <stefino> okay :) I'll try to write it into NML
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14:44:08  <andythenorth> so the type has compatible
14:44:16  <andythenorth> but the vehicle also has 'powered_roadtype_list' or equivalent
14:44:25  <andythenorth> that always puzzles me
14:46:37  <andythenorth> no I'm wrong, that's on the type
14:48:01  <andythenorth> meanwhile, do we know what the 5th sprite should be for crossings?
14:48:02  <andythenorth>
14:48:56  <andythenorth> the sprite I'm using currently is a white square, and I can't get it to show :P
14:49:02  <andythenorth> but it makes nmlc angry
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14:50:42  <andythenorth>
15:04:30  <stefino> So, I tried it in  the game. I set in road A powered_roadtype_list: B. Road B is not powered with A.Vehicle which is bought in depot A can runs on A and B. Vehicle from depot B can runs only on road B. So powered_roadtype_list means - vehicles from this road can go on X,Y
15:05:07  <stefino> "if roadtype A marks itself compatible with roadtypes B and C, then vehicles made for roadtype A can only run on A," so this is wrong...vehicles can runs on A,B and C
15:06:29  <stefino> in case you meant that in roatype A properties I set powered_roadtype_list: B,C;
15:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> "compatible" and "powered" are different things
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15:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause> for railtypes, basically it means: "compatible" -> this can go there "as a wagon", "powered" -> this can go there "as an engine"
15:21:50  <stefino> powered_roadtype_list, powered_tramtype_list ->	there is no difference between "powered" and "compatible" for road-/tramtype
15:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> since there are no wagons for roads, the "compatible" part is meaningless for roadtypes
15:23:01  <stefino> yes
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15:23:42  <Eddi|zuHause> any sentences containing "compatible" can probably be removed from those specs
15:23:58  <stefino> roadtypes I have done
15:24:29  <stefino> I'm little bit confused by road_type in vehicle properties
15:24:45  <stefino> what does it mean
15:25:20  <andythenorth> it sets the roadtype
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15:27:08  <stefino> so if I have labels (RT01, ROAD, ELRD, RT04, RT05, RT06, RT07,...) and set road_type: RT01, vehicle will appears only in RT01 depot?
15:27:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it will appear in RT01 depots, and all depots that RT01 set as "powered"
15:27:56  <andythenorth> what is compatible with RT01?
15:28:06  <andythenorth> also what eddi said
15:28:35  <stefino>
15:29:00  <andythenorth> is that how the roadtypetable works?
15:29:01  <stefino> I tried something like this for multiple roadtypes
15:29:08  <andythenorth> I don't understand the roadtypetable
15:29:18  <stefino> I saw it in example
15:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that roadtype table is probably wrong/misunderstood
15:29:31  <andythenorth> yeah type tables have these weird groups
15:29:38  <andythenorth> I was given one for railtypes in Termite
15:30:07  <Eddi|zuHause> in the roadtype table you write fallback types, in case the first one isn't defined at all (e.g. track set not loaded)
15:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't have anything to do with compatible/powered
15:30:56  <andythenorth> that makes complete sense
15:30:57  <andythenorth>
15:30:58  <Eddi|zuHause> so, if RT01 exists in your current game, all further entries in that list will be ignored
15:31:23  <andythenorth> stefino: are you combining vehicles and roadtypes in the same grf?
15:31:58  <stefino> no, I have GRF for Roads , grf for trucks and grf for buses
15:32:51  <stefino> I posted part of nml from example which is in NML file
15:34:19  <stefino> not NML file...NML source
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15:35:22  <Eddi|zuHause> "RED_TEST: [RED_, REDR, ROAD]" <-- this means "if RED_ exists, pick RED_. if RED_ doesn't exist, try REDR, and if that also doesn't exist, pick ROAD (which will always exist)
15:35:50  <stefino> ahhh
15:36:03  <stefino> okay :D good to know
15:36:11  <Eddi|zuHause> "ROADS_1: [RT01, ROAD, ELRD, RT05, RT06, RT07, RT08, RT09, RT10, RT11, RT12, RT13, RT14]," <- this means "if RT01 exists, pick RT01, else pick ROAD, since that always exists, all the other entries are always ignored"
15:36:34  <stefino> yes yes it is important thing what I didn't know
15:37:27  <nielsm> if you've worked with CSS it's similar to the font-family fallbacks list
15:38:04  <nielsm> (on the other hand, I'm not sure how many CSS writers actually know that's a thing)
15:38:17  <Eddi|zuHause> if none of the entries between [] exist, the vehicle will be disabled
15:39:43  <stefino> nielsm: no, I'm happy that I'm able to code something in NML :D - I'm nota programmer. This is a problem because bridges and stations are not in NML. I have to try to learn M4NFO in the future.
15:41:19  <planetmaker> write it directly in nfo
15:41:34  <stefino> Eddi|zuHause: okay. I'm little bit lost in this huge amount of informations :D So - there is no way how to assign one vehicle for more roadtypes.
15:41:38  <nielsm>  <-- I have publicly admitted to my failure
15:41:53  <nielsm> stefino: not directly
15:42:15  <nielsm> stefino: what you do is designate the "designed for" roadtype of the vehicle
15:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: the roadtype makes that "powered" list, the vehicle cannot change it, it can only pick one
15:42:22  <nielsm> e.g. just ROAD if it runs on any regular road
15:42:28  <stefino> planetmaker: :D NFO is huge amount of absurd numbers for me :D
15:42:44  <nielsm> each roadtype then defines which other roadtypes it is similar to
15:42:52  <andythenorth> there is a trick for cross-compatibility
15:42:56  <andythenorth> using a hidden roadtype
15:42:59  <andythenorth> it's quite neat
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15:44:12  <andythenorth>
15:44:40  <andythenorth> roadtype_flags: bitmask(ROADTYPE_FLAG_HIDDEN);
15:45:11  <andythenorth> vehicles that use have 'road_type: LOLZ' will be able to drive on both ROAD and HAUL
15:45:59  <andythenorth> LOLZ does not appear in the build oist
15:46:02  <andythenorth> list *
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15:52:06  <supermop_elsewhere> stefino: i think you can find my trolleybi code on the forum and copy that
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16:16:17  <stefino> in the end I succesfully coded it
16:16:25  <stefino> big thanks guys :)
16:16:48  <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: the code is really not that complicated, but you need the right mindset for it :)
16:17:15  <stefino> Eddi|zuHause: yes yes I have to agree :)
16:18:16  <supermop_elsewhere> andythenorth: timetable train to wait some significant amount of time at the loading station, but don't use full load
16:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway:
16:23:25  <andythenorth> what newgrf is that? :P
16:23:48  <andythenorth> there's a coach with a funny colour
16:24:11  <andythenorth> it's like watching model trains ewh
16:24:13  <andythenorth> eh *
16:24:16  <andythenorth> not ew
16:25:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the red coach is a dining car
16:31:47  <andythenorth> makes sense
16:31:57  <andythenorth> how do you choose the liveries?
16:32:00  <andythenorth> o_O
16:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't, there's just separate vehicles
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16:38:04  <andythenorth> how big is the buy menu? o_O
16:38:18  <andythenorth> I should just watch the stream :P
16:38:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it's ok, you can also watch the recording for like 2 weeks :p
16:39:22  <andythenorth> lot of black freight steam engines eh
16:39:38  <andythenorth> lots of pax coaches
16:39:42  <andythenorth> not so many wagons
16:40:04  <andythenorth> railcar :D
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17:02:28  <Eddi|zuHause> my FPS is on point today...
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17:20:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #7772: Showing destination when stopped or waiting
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17:43:16  <andythenorth> ^ related, I need to fix the destination bar so that speed is shown first
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17:43:24  <andythenorth> "I had a patch for that"
17:43:28  <andythenorth> ®
17:44:10  <Eddi|zuHause> should be a rather easy patch
17:45:45  <andythenorth> 'easy' is contextual to localised programming ability :P
17:45:58  <andythenorth> it's only a few lines, but they have to be the right lines :P
17:46:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the nature of patches, usually :p
17:47:29  <nielsm> could also change the UI more, add a separate bar for current order, clicking that opens the orders list, and could show the expected/planned arrival next to it if there is a timetable
17:48:22  <andythenorth> could do :)
17:48:39  <andythenorth> I'm not sure the current UI is wrong, except that it obscures speed a lot
17:48:44  <andythenorth> a lot / often
17:49:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you can fix that by splitting the string in 2
17:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and adding a separator
17:49:31  <andythenorth> or moving the speed to the start of the string
17:49:38  <andythenorth> which is trivial, and possibly better
17:49:50  * andythenorth likes low-tech solutions
17:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you could then also have two click actions, clicking on the speed will start/stop and clicking on the destination will scroll to the location
17:50:08  <andythenorth> that is an interesting proposal
17:52:12  <nielsm> also, soon #7777
18:08:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards
18:19:41  *** Etua has joined #openttd
18:21:54  <Eddi|zuHause> rather ctrl+click?
18:22:00  <Eddi|zuHause> is that taken already?
18:23:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards
18:25:20  <frosch123> yes, ctrl+click is go to selected line
18:25:51  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, but that should help this person already :p
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18:42:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling the game is going to crash soon :/
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18:47:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #7774: Notify button
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18:55:45  * andythenorth wonders if orudge is here :)
18:56:46  <andythenorth> hmm why is Twitter recommending I follow me?
18:56:49  <andythenorth> silly Twitter
18:57:56  <andythenorth> TrueBrain, anyone else with opinions, advice I got was to contact Free Software Foundation Europe
18:59:10  <frosch123> did you read their faq?
19:00:04  <andythenorth> no :)
19:00:22  <frosch123> <- that one
19:01:14  <frosch123> also, do you want ottd's twitter?
19:02:01  <andythenorth> not really :|
19:02:07  <andythenorth> does anyone want it? :P
19:02:52  <andythenorth> do we have like a 1password or something?
19:02:58  <andythenorth> for account creds :P
19:03:22  <LordAro> "shared password manager" sounds like a thing that shouldn't exist, if it does
19:03:28  <andythenorth> I used to think that
19:03:43  <andythenorth> but the alternatives are much worse
19:03:52  <frosch123> the group accounts are managed via info@
19:04:04  <andythenorth> and, so I'm told, it's cryptographically fine to have shared password vault
19:04:08  <frosch123> if you have access to info@, you'll find how to access the rest
19:04:32  <LordAro> andythenorth: seems like a lot of effort for not much gain
19:04:42  <LordAro> just put it in your own password manager if you want to
19:04:42  <andythenorth> might be
19:04:50  <andythenorth> well that too
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19:05:17  <andythenorth> eh, might be tricky for me to talk to FSFE
19:05:29  <andythenorth> they seem to be fundamentally opposed to my business
19:05:36  <andythenorth> and are running a big campaign about it
19:05:36  <frosch123> "your're no in europe"?
19:05:46  <andythenorth> nah, I sell software to government
19:05:57  <LordAro> lol
19:06:01  <andythenorth> and I don't provide an open source license and source code
19:06:50  <LordAro> the horror
19:07:06  <frosch123> do you do voting software?
19:07:16  <frosch123> :p
19:07:31  <andythenorth> nope
19:08:04  * andythenorth reading
19:08:15  <andythenorth> oh we could assign copyright to OpenTTD org
19:08:25  <andythenorth> but then we'd need a contributor agreement
19:08:31  <andythenorth> and we can't retcon the old commits
19:09:19  <frosch123> when the gpl header was added to all source files, we couldn't figure out who/what to put into the copyright notice
19:09:42  <frosch123> so we left it out :) probably makes it all void :p
19:09:43  <andythenorth> by default it's the author
19:09:58  <andythenorth> in most of our jurisdictions afaik
19:10:05  <andythenorth> but who is the author? :P
19:10:19  <andythenorth> when eddi writes all my code for me, and I paste it in?
19:10:48  <frosch123> ottd is like the city of london, it just is
19:12:11  <nielsm> where's the guide on building illegal infrastructure
19:12:48  <frosch123> you purchase some abandoned military bunker
19:17:00  <andythenorth> so what's the last sprite here (4th row, 5th column)?
19:17:10  <andythenorth> and what's the roadtype equivalent?
19:17:27  <nielsm> andythenorth: I tried looking into it earlier and I don't think there is an equivalent
19:17:39  <nielsm> it might just be a copy-paste leftover requirement from railtypes
19:17:42  <frosch123> those are for junctions
19:18:45  <frosch123> build a tram cross, and you will get it
19:21:14  <andythenorth> ok so I need some tram examples
19:21:38  <frosch123> essentially, if you get the first 4 of that row, you should also get the 5th
19:23:01  <frosch123> actually, where did you get those sprite sfrom?
19:23:24  <frosch123> <- that does not have them
19:24:10  <andythenorth> they are cargo culted from the railtype spritesheet
19:24:16  <andythenorth> I am hoping they are not needed
19:24:17  <frosch123> or were you actually talking about railtypes? in that case you get that sprite by crossing two tracks
19:24:56  <andythenorth> it's a bit of a catch 22 trying to write docs without any docs :)
19:25:44  <andythenorth> they are included here
19:25:56  <andythenorth> and they trigger white pixel warnings because no sprites drawn
19:39:33  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: 1password isn't free (the cloud variant), so no :P
19:39:36  <TrueBrain> but it is a good idea tbh :D
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19:41:06  <TrueBrain> owh, they offer it for free to Open Source projects, from what I understand
19:41:07  <TrueBrain> that is nice
19:41:13  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, it successfully crashed
19:42:04  <andythenorth>
19:42:07  <TrueBrain> too bad you have to email 30 days before the end of the year to renew
19:42:10  <TrueBrain> that will be forgotten, ofc
19:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that's twice in 2 days
19:42:44  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: just automate the email :p
19:42:58  <andythenorth> Python Cryptographic Authority are using it, so it's probably fine, right? :P
19:43:24  <andythenorth> ouch I've forgotten where the sprite lists are
19:43:24  <TrueBrain> from a crypt-point-of-view 1password is fine
19:43:47  <TrueBrain> they solved many common issues nicely
19:44:09  <TrueBrain> and their teams support is pretty solid
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19:45:04  <andythenorth> I figure shared creds -> reduced bus factor -> less burden on some individuals -> project is more fun?
19:45:23  <TrueBrain> all creds are shared, so no :P
19:45:29  <TrueBrain> but a sane way to share creds, that is nice :)
19:45:48  <nielsm> why have shared creds when access to most resources support multiple personal accounts?
19:46:18  <TrueBrain> because in the end you always have 1 master account for nearly everything
19:46:29  <TrueBrain> not many allow more than 1 "uber" account
19:46:33  <TrueBrain> GitHub is a clear exception
19:46:58  <TrueBrain> and of course you have stuff like Twitter, Docker Hub, root-passwords, ..
19:47:22  <TrueBrain> so "most" sadly is not true .. a minority only allows multiple personal accounts to be "owners"
19:48:18  <TrueBrain> the SysOp part alone has 29 passwords that don't allow MPAs :(
19:48:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7774: Notify button
19:49:11  <andythenorth> we also use it for rapid revoke if an endpoint is lost / suspect
19:49:20  <andythenorth> and for guaranteed rotations
19:49:27  <andythenorth> but that's probably less important here
19:49:39  <TrueBrain> it is important for everyone
19:49:41  <andythenorth> apart from our ability to distribute malware at scale :P
19:49:44  <TrueBrain> just harder to implement in the current situation :)
19:50:12  <andythenorth> ok so my to-do list is:
19:50:18  <TrueBrain> - eat
19:50:18  <andythenorth> - add some screenshots to website
19:50:21  <TrueBrain> - sleep
19:50:23  <TrueBrain> - rave
19:50:25  <TrueBrain> - repeat
19:50:26  <TrueBrain> right? :D
19:50:32  <andythenorth> well that's obvious :P
19:50:35  <andythenorth> - maybe contact the FSFE people
19:50:44  <andythenorth> - maybe get 1password open source
19:50:48  <TrueBrain>
19:50:49  <andythenorth> - try fix nml docs
19:50:57  <andythenorth> - take over openttd twitter :|
19:51:09  <andythenorth> such good music
19:51:18  <TrueBrain> it really is
19:51:21  <TrueBrain> piece of art
19:51:23  <Xaroth> eat
19:51:24  <Xaroth> sleep
19:51:25  <Xaroth> rave
19:51:25  <Xaroth> repeat
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19:51:37  <TrueBrain> @kick Xaroth stop repeating me; rave
19:51:37  *** Xaroth was kicked by DorpsGek (stop repeating me; rave)
19:51:39  <andythenorth> - oh, also get a reddit account? :P
19:51:40  <andythenorth> oof
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19:52:05  <TrueBrain> reddit made me giggle btw
19:52:18  <TrueBrain> replies were meant well, but funny :)
19:52:24  <andythenorth> innit
19:52:27  <andythenorth> some nice screenshots though
19:52:47  <Eddi|zuHause> next try: (i might have lost about 10 minutes of gameplay)
19:52:48  <andythenorth> we can do better than this :)
19:53:22  <TrueBrain> 1.4, lol
19:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> "In the picture coming from the most respected server for OpenTTD, “Brianetta’s Standard”" <-- when was that, 10 years ago?
19:54:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #45: White pixel warnings when compiling example_roadtype_and_tramtype.nml
19:54:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's noticeably on the front page also for me :P
19:54:52  <andythenorth> I had a long weird argument with Brianetta here once
19:55:02  <andythenorth> 'most respected' does not chime with my view :P
19:55:11  <TrueBrain> I like how it is absolute
19:55:20  <andythenorth> blame former us
19:55:28  <andythenorth> former us were all silly
19:57:40  <andythenorth> can I include this?
19:58:11  <frosch123> we once gave twitter access to kamnet :)
19:58:11  <andythenorth> to showcase 1.9.0 group livery feature
19:58:35  <andythenorth> should we just IFTTT the Twitter from the website?
19:58:39  <andythenorth> :P
19:58:46  <andythenorth> or have the bot post when the website is built?
19:58:55  <andythenorth> or...
19:59:06  <andythenorth> @dorpsgek tweet "andythenorth grfs are best"
19:59:09  <frosch123> "website had been updated"?
19:59:17  <andythenorth> just post the commit :P
19:59:18  <andythenorth> oof
19:59:42  <frosch123> oh, the @openttd twitter used to post the svn log
19:59:45  <frosch123> does it still work?
19:59:59  <Eddi|zuHause> unlikely
20:00:00  <andythenorth> I suspect...not
20:00:16  <andythenorth> hook it up to Bananas 2 also
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20:01:07  <frosch123> <- is that when we moved to gh?
20:01:27  <andythenorth> sure it was more recent than that
20:01:46  <TrueBrain> we migrated in April I think?
20:01:52  <andythenorth> might be the time we only had lang commits for 3 months
20:01:53  <TrueBrain> why would someone build that twitter bot, I wonder :P
20:02:28  <frosch123> yes, 2018-04-06
20:02:36  <frosch123> so, it was broken two years before
20:02:45  <andythenorth> delete it? :D
20:03:00  <TrueBrain> is it ours?
20:03:13  <TrueBrain> as that logo is pretty much not OpenTTD's :P
20:03:14  <frosch123> no
20:03:28  <frosch123> he, zephyris liked one of the last tweets
20:04:02  <andythenorth> peter1138: peterer are you playing minecraft?  Or in other words, NRT sprites list is accurate, I can use for docs?
20:04:43  <frosch123> TrueBrain: it mentions mercurial in the description, so it may have been when the mq mirrror default branch changed
20:04:58  <frosch123> s/mq/hg/
20:06:03  <TrueBrain> happens with unofficial stuff :)
20:08:59  <LordAro> and sometimes official stuff
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20:19:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened pull request #48: Docs: (fixes #45) remove unused spritesets from roadtype example
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20:28:51  <glx> <-- docker action, <-- javascript action
20:29:06  <glx> both version of action seems to work
20:30:33  <glx> ignore test job, it fails because hooks are probably broken :)
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21:07:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened pull request #102: Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9
21:11:28  <andythenorth> how about a news post with links to YT videos of OpenTTD?
21:11:29  <andythenorth> e6244da65714680b2c7547490c9519bc417b438a
21:11:34  <andythenorth> nope not a hash
21:11:36  <andythenorth>
21:11:38  <andythenorth> better
21:12:13  <andythenorth>
21:14:23  <andythenorth> time for the next monthly dev post I think
21:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> ... make one?
21:16:15  <andythenorth> doing it
21:16:29  <andythenorth> can someone approve?
21:16:39  <andythenorth> it's just 2 screenshots, we don't need burocro-gedden
21:22:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] Eddi-z approved pull request #102: Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9
21:22:45  <andythenorth> thanks
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21:36:53  <andythenorth> hmm no sensible h4 in website oof
21:37:10  <andythenorth> nvm
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21:52:45  <peter1138> andythenorth, I was playing mountain bikes in the mud.
21:52:59  <andythenorth> much better
21:53:06  <andythenorth> btw is your newgrf dock patch lost?
21:53:16  <andythenorth> I have mentioned it in the 'monthly' dev post I'm writing
21:54:14  <peter1138> No.
21:54:29  <peter1138> That was all pre-git stuff.
21:55:17  <peter1138> 20g of honey cashews and peanuts is hardly any :/
21:57:46  <andythenorth> barely
22:03:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth dismissed a review for pull request #102: Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9
22:03:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #102: Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9
22:04:08  <andythenorth> did I?
22:04:21  <andythenorth> I have not clicked any buttons
22:04:44  <andythenorth> oh I pushed on master, because that's what we do on website
22:04:55  <andythenorth> and now Github magic happened? oof
22:05:53  <andythenorth> oh that's annoying :x
22:07:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #102: Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9
22:08:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened pull request #103: Draft 2019 October dev post
22:09:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #103: Draft 2019 October dev post
22:09:16  <andythenorth> fixed
22:10:25  <glx> you're supposed to PR from branches
22:11:20  <glx> and keep master up to date
22:11:54  <andythenorth> looks like it
22:12:08  <andythenorth> original advice from TB was stick it all in master and don't worry too much
22:12:14  <andythenorth> but GH doesn't work that way
22:12:44  <andythenorth> Doom soundtrack in OpenTTD? :o
22:12:46  <glx> it's ok if you only have 1 open PR
22:18:25  <andythenorth> bed
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22:34:39  <peter1138> Hmm, install deb package or from github?
22:42:31  <Xaroth> What can possibly go wrong?
22:45:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] Xaroth commented on pull request #103: Draft 2019 October dev post
22:47:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] Xaroth commented on pull request #102: Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9
22:48:21  <Xaroth> Also, what happened with the August dev post? I still see it as a PR o_O
22:48:35  <LordAro> no one wrote it
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22:50:36  <Xaroth> might as well close the PR then :o
22:55:21  <peter1138> Make a PR to close the PR.
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