Log for #openttd on 16th December 2019:
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00:45:36  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #7861: Starting a new map from the title screen NewGRF window reloads the NewGRFs twice.
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04:15:52  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7649: Save game can't open (liblzma returned error code)?
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07:45:34  <Pikka> yes but
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10:05:47  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker commented on pull request #68: Fix: close image files after use during palette check
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13:20:37  <hythlodaeus> hello, can I speak with someone in charge of the translation team?
13:20:55  <hythlodaeus> I emailed my application for a volunteer translator many days ago, but haven't received a reply since
13:23:20  <LordAro> planetmaker: ^
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14:11:12  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sdcloudt commented on pull request #7796: Unittests
14:11:12  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sdcloudt closed pull request #7796: Unittests
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14:43:02  <andythenorth> hmm
14:43:09  <andythenorth> are there lolz?
14:51:58  <planetmaker> hm
14:52:22  <planetmaker> I work on translation e-mails like... every month at most :P
14:53:53  <planetmaker> and I asked more than one time for one or two further people to support me there
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14:56:03  <FLHerne> What does that actually entail?
14:58:45  <planetmaker> reading e-mails. Telling 10% of the people who apply that you need more data (like user name. Or how to create a completely new translation etc). for the other 90% you add them in phpldapadmin to the proper group and commit that
14:59:05  <planetmaker> I cannot say I like the workflow with phpldapadmin :)
14:59:37  <Sacro> Better or worse than straight LDAP?
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14:59:50  <planetmaker> I cannot say, I never figured out straight ldap
15:00:04  <Sacro> I have used it on occasion, it's horrible
15:00:21  <planetmaker> then it's better. It's sugar-coated horror
15:04:18  <planetmaker> and of course I forgot one important part of workflow: you have to reply to the other 90% e-mails after you changed permissions in phpldapadmin :)
15:05:24  <LordAro> planetmaker: i'm reasonably certain there are only about 3 (mildly active) people with access to the relevant mailboxes and systems
15:05:41  <LordAro> if you want more people to look at translations, you need to change that first :p
15:07:50  <planetmaker> That's what I'm saying... yes. Changing translations is reasonably sensitive as you can in phpldapadmin wrek havoc on all kinds of permissions though.
15:07:54  <hythlodaeus> planetmaker: I already created a registry on the website
15:08:15  <hythlodaeus> I sent the email detailing my background and asking permission to be given access
15:08:23  <planetmaker> hylshols7qui[m], I don't have access to the e-mails currently. But... what's your login and the desired language?
15:08:45  <hythlodaeus> profile name: mcbanhas
15:08:53  <hythlodaeus> language: portuguese (portugal)
15:10:25  <hythlodaeus> if you guys need people to help managing translations: I used to work as a project manager for the translation industry myself
15:10:52  <planetmaker> ok, please check that your translation access works now
15:11:04  <planetmaker>
15:11:41  <hythlodaeus> i see, it lovely
15:12:07  <hythlodaeus> thank you
15:13:22  <hythlodaeus> who's in charge of coordinating? are there any guidelines/glossaries I can access?
15:15:55  <planetmaker> Well, I guess I'm the only one remaining of the translation managers. If your question is about a single language: the people from that language themselves. If there's something to discuss between translators, I encourage you to open a thread on the "translations into Portuguese" in our forums
15:16:12  <hythlodaeus> will do
15:16:16  <planetmaker> That method is not ideal, and there's no guidelines for the individual languages per-se
15:16:32  <hythlodaeus> yeah, no translation memory support either
15:16:43  <hythlodaeus> no glossaries
15:16:45  <planetmaker> Maybe, just maybe, such thread exists... but yes, there's memory for the translations
15:16:50  <hythlodaeus> it's all pretty manual
15:17:34  <planetmaker> often, when fixing things, the "related strings" are a good guide.
15:17:50  <planetmaker> But making a language universally consistent can be pretty difficult
15:18:42  <planetmaker> hm... the memory actually is not there, exactly... I thought it was :|
15:19:01  <hythlodaeus> from my experience, the PT-PT translation is quite alright actually, with a few irks and mistakes here and there
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15:22:42  <hythlodaeus> btw, can I ask: there's a NewGRF for randomly generated town names which is not implement in the trunk yet. It's actually of very good quality and quite well done. The generated town names obey to portuguese toponymy very well-
15:25:17  <planetmaker> will it be integrated in the game? Unlikely as townnames are NewGRF domain. The vanilla lists are defficient in many respects, yes... but difficult to change. It breaks savegame compatibility... for strange implementation-specific reasons
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15:29:19  <FLHerne> hythlodaeus: For what it's worth, the generated "English" town names are amusingly ridiculous :P
15:29:38  <planetmaker> For basically every major language there exist better townname NewGRFs than OpenTTD's default generators
15:30:14  <FLHerne> So if you want sensible town names, NewGRFs are the answer there too
15:30:27  <hythlodaeus> no no, the thing there is no generator for portuguese at all
15:30:49  <hythlodaeus> it can't break any savegames because there is no vanilla town names for PTPT at the moment
15:31:32  <hythlodaeus> so it wouldn't be replacing anything
15:32:40  <Pikka> frequent lolz, andythenorth
15:32:44  <Pikka> and bedtime
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15:40:55  <andythenorth> oof
15:50:36  <planetmaker> hythlodaeus, just my personal 2ct: strictly speaking, the townnames as-is in OpenTTD should probably be mimimiced 1:1 by a corresponding NewGRF. The the integrated generators can go, and everything is available as NewGRFs :) And then one can think of shipping a few select as defaults
15:51:09  <planetmaker> (same as one should think of shipping default AI)... but these things are highly controversal :)
15:54:24  <hythlodaeus> planetmaker, that's impossible. you cannot mimic 1:1 the town names in different languages because the original formation depends heavily on English semantics
15:55:25  <hythlodaeus> you can say, for example, "I think the town names for other languages should be equally humorous" but that does not necessarily means it has to comply with the formation rules applied on the default set
15:55:52  <planetmaker> eh? Also ingame you choose a townname language... why shouldn't that be possible to mimic?
15:57:21  <planetmaker> I mean, the default townname lists... sure they can be done via NewGRF. No need to make them all in one NewGRF. But even that is possible
15:58:10  <hythlodaeus> oh sorry I thought you were talking semantics
15:58:58  <planetmaker> Yes... even that. The one townname NewGRF I wrote has 6 different generation rules. Depending on which you choose you get different townnames (or a random selection from all)
15:59:25  <planetmaker> generation rules as in "South, North, East, West, all, random, random and real"
15:59:33  <planetmaker> so it's actually 7 :P
15:59:37  <hythlodaeus> you can't expect all languagues to conform for english rules tho
15:59:59  <planetmaker> yes. But no need. I can, in a NewGRF make one rule for Portuguese names, one for English, one for German, etc
16:00:16  <planetmaker> *one set of rules
16:00:49  <planetmaker> And that can even be done in one NewGRF...
16:01:01  <planetmaker> would actually be an interesting project: NewGRF which generates the default names :D
16:01:18  <planetmaker> and part2: modify OpenTTD to use that NewGRF by default
16:02:18  <hythlodaeus> well, all in all, what I am saying is, portuguese as a language is fully supported by default except for a town name generator. there is a very good one available, and it is very good. I think it should be included in the default package because it's sort of ideal to be able to run  language with corresponding town names
16:02:29  <hythlodaeus> how it is implemented it is of little concern really
16:03:12  <planetmaker> Then we'd add a lot of different townname sets :) We have about 65 supported languages
16:03:27  <hythlodaeus> but we already have that
16:04:14  <hythlodaeus> we have 22 town name generators toal
16:04:16  <hythlodaeus> *total
16:04:34  <planetmaker> yes, sadly :) There should be one default and the rest via NewGRF
16:05:10  <planetmaker> All 22 are actually somewhere between ok and bad
16:05:18  <planetmaker> mostly for offering too few names
16:06:09  <hythlodaeus> well what I can tell you is that the current portuguese generator is made of the names of every little town, city, and village in portugal
16:06:29  <hythlodaeus> it is quite impressive. I've seen names of places showing up I would never expect
16:06:40  <planetmaker> they fail on a 4k x 4k map with plenty towns.
16:07:02  <planetmaker> The NewGRF one you describe likely won't fail... as it has most or all places, thus a big enough number
16:07:46  <planetmaker> The same holds true for the NewGRF townname sets for the other "big" lanugagues: default sucks, the NewGRF offers much better quality. So... use NewGRF
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16:14:46  <hythlodaeus> Yeah but that's also why there's English and English (aditional) on the default package
16:16:33  <hythlodaeus> and in 4k sized maps no town  name generator seems to work properly. there's a certain extent of repetition happening that doesn't seem to be related with the amount of names themselves... likely it's the generating algoritm
16:19:32  <planetmaker> of course. And a good townname NewGRF has to provide one to generate enough :) Defaults inside OpenTTD don't have that many either...
16:20:58  <planetmaker> @calc 4 x 25 * 7 * 7 * 22 * 9
16:20:58  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
16:21:04  <planetmaker> @calc 4 * 25 * 7 * 7 * 22 * 9
16:21:04  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 970200
16:21:13  <planetmaker> hm. That's plenty for original English :D
16:22:34  <hythlodaeus> wel nevermind, I can submit a ticket later about this matter :)
16:22:54  <planetmaker> @calc 6* 42 * 25 * 11 * 5 * 3 * 54 * 17
16:22:54  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 954261000
16:22:59  <planetmaker> plenty more for additional
16:23:37  <planetmaker> I nearly can guarantee you that there will be no ingame addition of further townname generators. NewGRFs is the way there
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16:24:05  <dwfreed> This is the way
16:24:08  <planetmaker> iff... some further NewGRFs could be shipped...
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16:25:03  <planetmaker> damn... 8 years ago that I wrote the townname NewGRF :-O
16:27:33  <planetmaker> @calc 7 * (38 * 29 + 4*4) * 89
16:27:33  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 696514
16:27:44  <planetmaker> well... that's how many random I came up with :D
16:29:52  <planetmaker> @calc 3*92*15*6
16:29:52  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 24840
16:30:02  <hythlodaeus> default town names for every language is a really good thing for localization though. it greatly improves the standard on how the game handles translation by default. the problem with leaving it to NewGRFs is like saying "oh my game is incomplete, but hopfully modders will fix it"
16:30:04  <planetmaker> that's the default number for German names shipped with OpenTTD
16:30:52  <planetmaker> hythlodaeus, I disagree. By default we also don't ship localized vehicles, houses or industries or landscapes
16:31:13  <planetmaker> Townnames are part of the map. Not of the translation
16:31:25  <hythlodaeus> because those are ficticious brand names, not a matter of geography
16:32:34  <hythlodaeus> town names allow one to imagine a reality similar to one's own country. it's the least one can do, I think, assuming the base architecture is all English based
16:35:01  <hythlodaeus> but I'm sorry, this is a rather complicated subject in the end
16:35:16  <hythlodaeus> Ill stick to translation for now :)
17:06:35  <hythlodaeus> btw, if I have a question about a string to whom I can direct it?
17:08:51  <FLHerne> hythlodaeus: Might as well ask here, then the forum
17:09:02  <FLHerne> I don't think there's any designated "string expert"
17:10:54  <nielsm> also what kind of question? a content-related one (why does it use these words) or a technical (how does formatting work)
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17:24:04  <hythlodaeus> i don't have a question now, but I will in the future :)
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18:43:55  <andythenorth> yo
18:44:49  <Wolf01> Sure
18:45:51  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:45:51  <DorpsGek_III_>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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20:03:55  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7497: Feature: Selective demolition tool.
20:14:03  <Wolf01> Isn't that another way to call the remove tool?
20:16:25  <nielsm> well, without having to follow track exactly and such?
20:17:28  <nielsm> also remove tool doesn't have a way to filter tiles by ownership, you can't make removal tool touch your roads but not town-owned roads
20:20:14  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering
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20:40:08  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7800: Easier access for vehicles' group window.
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23:42:55  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7842: Linkgraph takes a very long time to recalculate on large save, causing hangs
23:49:53  <hythlodaeus> eints section in github does not accept issue reports/feature requests?
23:50:26  <hythlodaeus> I wanted to submit a couple of suggestions to improve the environment and report an issue I've found

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