Log for #openttd on 1st February 2020:
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00:33:16  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7967: Fix #7966: SQInteger is 64-bit, print it as 64-bit
00:37:17  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7966: Error in script error message for type mismatch
01:16:01  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7966: Error in script error message for type mismatch
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09:48:21  <andythenorth> yo
10:01:32  <Wolf01> o/
10:13:59  <LordAro> /o
10:14:48  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7967: Fix #7966: SQInteger is 64-bit, print it as 64-bit
10:14:55  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7967: Fix #7966: SQInteger is 64-bit, print it as 64-bit
10:14:57  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7966: Error in script error message for type mismatch
10:17:13  <Pikka> yoyo
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10:56:28  <andythenorth> lo bnob
10:59:43  <nielsm> so, how does it feel to have been brexited?
11:01:34  <andythenorth> I forgot
11:01:44  <andythenorth> there were no fireworks last night
11:01:56  <andythenorth> on the other hand...where I live had one of the highest remain votes so eh
11:02:24  <andythenorth> I think it's potato/potato
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11:04:45  <andythenorth> shall I do Euro Horse next?
11:10:59  <LordAro> andythenorth: Iron Horse but blue with some yellow bits?
11:11:07  <andythenorth> and no UK trains at all
11:11:15  <andythenorth> also no Norwegian trains
11:13:13  <Pikka> what happened to Amerihorse?
11:14:12  <andythenorth> yes
11:14:25  <andythenorth> I want to do them all!
11:14:38  <andythenorth> and FIRS 4, and Unsinkable Sam, and Road Hog 2
11:14:42  <andythenorth> and fix the newgrf docs
11:14:54  * andythenorth oops, too much
11:15:54  <Pikka> it happens
11:16:11  <Pikka> I think I'm going to go back to rendering for av9
11:16:50  <Pikka> even with the av8 sprites as a guide, aircraft are just too complicated shapes to hand-draw all the directions for. Never mind tilted sprites for taildraggers or takeoffs
11:16:56  <andythenorth> yair
11:17:05  <andythenorth> Sam is stuck waiting for me to draw some hulls
11:17:13  <andythenorth> right pain in the arse
11:17:46  <andythenorth> NARS 9000 Horse, I never figured out the gameplay progression
11:17:57  <andythenorth> as US trains have got progressively slower since the 1930s
11:18:06  <andythenorth> which isn't what games do :P
11:20:34  <Pikka> take the inspiration from what fits the gameplay, then. that's why I left out the early pacifics from UKRS3
11:21:32  <Pikka> the way I've mapped out NARS 2001 is a progression of more powerful, but slow, freight locos from 1900 - conso, mikado, mallet or something else big
11:23:16  <Pikka> and fast-ish, but not too big passenger locos - American, Pacific, etc. Then it all gets replaced by much less powerful, but slightly faster freight diesels which get MU'ed, and 100mph passenger locos. I guess it would play similar to the UK set, although "powerful" is a lot *more* powerful for the US
11:24:02  <Pikka> and anything "realistic" that doesn't fit, like giant express steam locos or centennials etc gets ignored :P
11:28:53  <andythenorth> makes sense
11:29:12  <andythenorth> I am pretty determined to include some stupid things like the UP turbines
11:29:19  <andythenorth> which also only last 15 years :P
12:08:03  <peter1138> Hi
12:08:07  <peter1138> Sup?
12:12:00  <Pikka> Hallo
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12:58:47  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #7962: Sprite sorter optimization
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13:07:06  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7962: Sprite sorter optimization
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14:18:30  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7962: Sprite sorter optimization
14:19:02  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] msikma commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
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14:29:43  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Honza1987 commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
14:34:13  <_dp_> meanwhile I'm deep into a wtf land with my sprite sorters as I've no longer have any idea why some optimizations work and some don't xD
14:34:26  <LordAro> yay!
14:35:07  <_dp_> on a positive side, they keep getting faster xD
14:36:10  <glx> it probably depends on the initial state
14:39:15  <_dp_> glx, initial state of what?
14:39:43  <glx> dunno, almost sorted or highly unsorted
14:39:46  <_dp_> it probably depends on some properties of input data that I don't quite understand
14:40:03  <_dp_> as they are already way beyond theoretical limits for worst case performance
14:41:00  <_dp_> it's almost sorted by definition, otherwise original sorter would never finish xD
14:41:27  <glx> maybe the sprite sizes too
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14:42:06  <glx> if you don't have a big sprite hidding many others it's probably the worse case
14:43:27  <_dp_> sprites are all relatively small in openttd
14:44:09  <_dp_> it's some really weird properties. for example if I take sorter in that PR and use x+y as order instead of x+y+z it becomes twice as fast xD
14:45:02  <_dp_> and z is rarely above 100, how on earth does that even matter %
15:23:07  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #7962: Sprite sorter optimization
15:30:27  <nielsm> andythenorth: do you remember if we tried reverting this commit for the performance badness issue?
15:31:01  <andythenorth> I don't recall :)
15:31:12  <andythenorth> I don't really trust my local tests tbh
15:31:23  <nielsm> you are reproducing something
15:31:27  <andythenorth> the performance self-built is so much worse than the official binary
15:31:38  <andythenorth> and there seems to be no way to address that
15:31:59  <nielsm> it's still not so bad that you should be getting 17 fps
15:32:22  <nielsm> if the framerate window says the total game loop time is below 20 ms then you should be running at a constant 33.3 fps
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15:33:16  <nielsm> and if the framerate is significantly worse than that, but the game loop time is not in the red then that in itself is the bug
15:34:01  <nielsm> you have that thing where if you show the vehicles list the framerate drops massively, right?
15:34:23  <andythenorth> yes
15:34:25  <nielsm> have you tested whether making the game even more complex causes the framerate to drop even more?
15:34:27  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
15:34:37  <nielsm> e.g. taking the game loop time from 5 ms to 20 ms
15:34:42  <andythenorth> maybe there's a save we could use as a baseline?
15:34:52  <nielsm> what's your cpu?
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15:35:34  <glx> #7904 may be the cause for windows with lists
15:36:31  <nielsm> that's likely one bad thing yes
15:36:36  <andythenorth> CPU is
15:37:21  <andythenorth> I am curious why the binaries built on the CF are so much faster
15:37:49  <nielsm> okay that's probably about the same speed as mine, i5-4460 3.2 ghz (mine is 4th gen, yours is 8th gen)
15:38:40  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7962: Sprite sorter optimization
15:40:50  <andythenorth> hmm software update BIAB
15:43:17  <nielsm> ProZoneGame 21 runs just on the edge of 33 fps for me, that might be a good test?
15:43:35  <andythenorth> got a link? o_O
15:43:54  <nielsm> maybe it's also worth trying to load a game in dedicated server mode, so you can measure without graphics
15:44:05  <nielsm> and see if the graphics driver used makes a difference
15:44:16  <frosch123> you can also just pause the game
15:44:35  <frosch123> i used some coop game and compared paused vs unpaused
15:44:41  <nielsm>
15:44:59  <nielsm> frosch123 nah the issue is also with simulation speed affecting things in weird ways
15:45:25  <nielsm> it seems when the game loop time crosses some threshold, the total framerate drops much more than it should given just the game loop time
15:46:17  <glx> well if gameloop takes too much it triggers hundred ticks more often I think
15:46:25  <glx> increasing the slowdowns
15:46:44  <nielsm> it's not on that level
15:46:54  <andythenorth> BIAB
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15:47:21  <nielsm> we're talking game loop + graphics painting going from 2 ms to 5 ms causing the framerate to drop from 34 to 17
15:47:43  <nielsm> 17 should only be happening if the game loop time + drawing time was around 60 ms
15:48:35  <glx> oh like if it a little above 30ms it's like 60ms ?
15:48:49  <nielsm> it's not above 30
15:48:51  <nielsm> not even above 10
16:03:56  <glx> OSX doesn't seem to use threaded drawing (but my search in the code may be failing :) )
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16:07:22  <andythenorth> so how do I replicate a production build (instead of debug)?
16:07:33  <andythenorth> I tried "./configure --enable-debug=0 --disable-assert"
16:07:52  <glx> you can check how it's done in azure files
16:11:20  <andythenorth> hmm prozone game has unavailable grfs
16:12:07  <andythenorth> nielsm: we need an agreed method for reporting fps
16:12:13  <glx> andythenorth: in the logs for nightly I see "./configure PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/usr/local/lib/pkgconfig --enable-static"
16:12:51  <LordAro> only releases have asserts disables
16:13:57  <glx> and same line for stable
16:14:06  <LordAro> interesting
16:14:30  <nielsm>
16:14:40  <nielsm> there's a way to make things slow without needing specific saves
16:14:47  <nielsm> at least it works for me :)
16:15:07  <andythenorth> I'll try it shortly
16:15:20  <andythenorth> so much affects the reported fps
16:15:25  <andythenorth> including the fps window itself
16:15:31  <andythenorth> map location
16:15:34  <andythenorth> window size
16:15:39  <andythenorth> animation on/off
16:15:52  <andythenorth> news messages
16:16:19  <glx> I think tests should be done with animation off ;)
16:16:57  <nielsm> I'd say test with slowdown on a blank map in editor
16:17:20  <andythenorth> I'm only now reporting fps with the windoshade
16:17:27  <andythenorth> the drawing of text is so parasitic
16:17:32  <andythenorth> windowshade *
16:19:24  <andythenorth> I've turned all news messages off, they're a horrible performance suck afaict
16:19:27  <andythenorth> including the summaries
16:19:56  <nielsm>
16:20:29  <nielsm> it should be possible to set slowdown such that the game loop time constantly skirts 30 ms, and still get 32-33 fps
16:22:07  <andythenorth> ok, with the configure command glx posted above, my self-built binary is now marginally faster at ffwd than official build
16:22:14  <andythenorth> helpful
16:23:07  <glx> hmm --enable-debug is always a debug build anyway
16:23:36  <glx> with more or less optimisations but still a debug build I think
16:26:13  <glx> ignore me I'm wrong ;)
16:29:47  <frosch123> LordAro: the "--disable-assert" was added for releases only by the old compile farm
16:30:00  <LordAro> i see
16:30:03  <frosch123> we added it in the 1.9 branch, but auto-detetion was postponed for cmake
16:32:13  <frosch123> actually... it wasn't the compile farm that added it, but it was a diff between svn-branch and svn-tag
16:32:18  <frosch123> weird svn :)
16:40:32  <andythenorth> oh hover rows in saveload :)
16:41:28  <andythenorth> nielsm: so your patch in the gist...I've applied it
16:41:59  <andythenorth> doesn't seem to reduce fps though :)
16:42:12  <nielsm> the slowdown command has no effect?
16:42:28  <nielsm> then it's probably clang being too smart about optimisation :D
16:42:49  <LordAro> assuming andythenorth has actually run the slowdown command...
16:43:09  <nielsm> well okay yes
16:47:10  <andythenorth> command is just 'slowdown'?
16:47:21  <nielsm> slowdown <number>
16:47:30  <nielsm> try with 10, 15, 20
16:47:52  <nielsm> for me "slowdown 21" gives me a game loop time of 30 ms
16:49:02  <andythenorth> slowdown 21 is giving avg game loop time 50ms
16:49:11  <andythenorth> maybe 45 now
16:49:16  <nielsm> try smaller values until you hit about 30 ms
16:49:22  <nielsm> or just below 30 ms
16:49:33  <andythenorth> hmm the average declines
16:49:49  <andythenorth> ok I just leave it a minute or so to settle
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16:50:20  <nielsm> the important part is, what overall fps do you get when the game loop time is just about 30 ms?
16:51:56  <andythenorth> most common value is around 19.6fps
16:52:10  <andythenorth> it's typically 19-20fps
16:53:20  <nielsm> try lowering the slowdown by 1 step at a time, and see if there's any points where the fps makes sudden jumps to a different range
16:53:25  <nielsm> or if the fps changes smoothly
16:57:05  <frosch123> <- i don't get why i get these peaks
16:57:22  <nielsm> weird
16:58:20  <frosch123> i also don't get why the screenshot tool adds a border of transparency
16:59:10  <nielsm> I don't get any spiking with the slowdown
16:59:33  <nielsm> ♬ John Broomhall - Transport Tycoon Deluxe (MT-32) - Jammit (3:34 @ 240 kbps) ♬
16:59:36  <nielsm> so funky~
17:00:07  <frosch123> <- also, this increases the usability of the plots by factor 100
17:04:03  <andythenorth> ok at slowdown 15, I initially get the spikes
17:04:13  <andythenorth> then the game runs at 22-23fps
17:04:41  <andythenorth> at slowdown 16, it's 19-20fps (this is the 30ms game loop)
17:04:56  <andythenorth> slowdown 15, the game loop is about 17ms
17:06:24  <andythenorth> oh wait
17:06:32  <andythenorth> yeah, ignore that
17:06:40  <andythenorth> I opened the game loop chart
17:06:45  <andythenorth> that completely changes performance
17:07:02  <andythenorth> oof this is confusing :)
17:07:22  <andythenorth> opening the game loop chart nearly halves game loop time
17:07:44  <nielsm> wow?
17:07:48  <nielsm> that is weird
17:08:09  <andythenorth> want a video?
17:08:13  <nielsm> something strange seems to be going on with windows that update on a timer then?
17:08:33  <andythenorth> much as the fps reporting is necessary and cool
17:08:50  <andythenorth> it's got a real measurement-changes-the-measurement problem
17:16:52  <andythenorth>
17:17:02  <andythenorth> there's some weird non-deterministic choking in the middle of that video
17:17:05  <andythenorth> that doesn't usually happen
17:19:42  <nielsm> that's just spooky
17:20:22  <nielsm> btw I'd suggest testing with the scenario editor on an empty map
17:20:32  <andythenorth> spukhafte fernwirkung
17:20:36  <nielsm> (with no newgrf, ai, gs loaded)
17:43:12  <nielsm> actually I do have a 2010 macbook pro around here but I have no idea if it works, at least I know the SSD is dead
17:43:34  <nielsm> but I wonder if it'd be possible to install current macos on it?
17:46:22  <frosch123> nielsm: when i replace the getstring loop with a usleep, i get no spikes
17:47:08  <nielsm> weird, also
17:47:27  <nielsm> but I wanted to avoid sleep since that calls into the os and typically deschedules the thread
17:47:47  <nielsm> and when part of my suspicion lies with sleep calls and/or the thread scheduler that's not something I want
17:48:45  <frosch123> i am not sure usleep is a call to the os
17:53:50  <nielsm> hm well, the charger works for this, getting the orange charging led
17:58:22  <andythenorth> if the SSD is dead, USB external? o_O
17:58:33  <andythenorth> ouch, probably just USB 1.1 or something :P
17:59:12  <nielsm> it's so old it uses 2.5" harddrives
17:59:20  <nielsm> and I have a spinny disk installed in it now
17:59:59  <nielsm> the built-in recovery thing does boot, but when I try to have it reinstall osx it fails during the "verifying elibility with apple" initial step
18:00:05  <nielsm> and it does have internet connection too
18:00:15  <nielsm> I guess apple doesn't serve 10.8 any longer
18:00:23  <andythenorth> oof
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18:01:25  <andythenorth> might be outdated now
18:02:41  <andythenorth> allegedly "El Capitan or other installs will show corrupted if the time and date on the machine is after the 10 January 2016, just change it and it will install."
18:04:34  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot opened pull request #20: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February
18:11:32  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #6566: Very long loading of the maximum "zoom out" level in 4K resolution
18:21:54  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #7968: Fix #6566: Fix signed integer overflow in viewport draw area chunking
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18:40:17  <Fahrradkette> greetings everybody. I encounter the 1.9.3 bug where one can't assign a station to a order when the sign of the station isn't above a tile belonging to the station. This happens when reshaping stations / spread station usage. In user jfs mentions that one could move the sign of the station. How would I do that?
18:40:57  <andythenorth> it's faff
18:41:02  <Fahrradkette> faff?
18:41:21  <andythenorth> involves deleting and rebuilding the station until it's in the right place
18:41:35  <nielsm> sometimes you can remove a station part and add it back
18:41:38  <andythenorth> alternatively, isn't it fixed in 1.10 betas?
18:41:46  <nielsm> or add an extra station part and remove that again
18:41:55  <nielsm> yes it exists only in 1.9.3 and no other versions
18:42:16  <Fahrradkette> so it centers when expanding/shrinking the station?
18:42:21  <nielsm> the bug was introduced because I made a mistake when merging one patch into the 1.9 branch
18:42:47  <Fahrradkette> or could I bin-patch a savefile?
18:42:48  <nielsm> nah, it moves to the top corner if it ends up outside the station bounding rectangle
18:43:52  <Fahrradkette> wow, that worked, thanks nielsm :)
18:45:40  <Fahrradkette> btw, when will 1.10 be released?
18:46:33  <nielsm> uh, maybe the usual april 1st, not decided yet
18:46:45  <nielsm> we need to get around to make a release candidate soon
18:47:17  <Fahrradkette> good to hear, looking forward to it :)
18:48:02  <Fahrradkette> 1st of april is imho a good release date...if stuff breaks one can say "april's fool!" :P
18:53:00  <milek7> slowdown behaves rather weird
18:53:02  <milek7>
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19:02:14  <frosch123> milek7: enable fast forward
19:03:12  <frosch123> then you can see more gameticks, so you get a better average
19:03:46  <milek7> but why these jumps?
19:03:47  <milek7>
19:04:31  <frosch123> noone knows, i got a lot less jumps when replacing the loop with usleep
19:04:47  <frosch123> computers are complex machines, you never know which butterfly does what
19:04:50  <milek7> btw. graph is somewhat broken with high fps
19:04:52  <milek7>
19:05:14  <frosch123> graph's autoscaling is bonkers
19:05:17  <frosch123> i disabled that
19:05:40  <frosch123> otherwise it just jumps around all the time
19:06:04  <milek7> uh, imgur lately started to compress images too much
19:06:11  <nielsm> okay maybe tls was breaking a bit here, the RTC had lost power and reset to dec 31st 2000
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20:15:45  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #7969: Console command "alias" can stack overflow and crash (bypassing crash handler)
20:15:59  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hezkore commented on issue #7889: [Request] Company rating via Server Admin Port
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20:42:27  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7969: Console command "alias" can stack overflow and crash (bypassing crash handler)
20:43:40  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7969: Console command "alias" can stack overflow and crash (bypassing crash handler)
20:44:17  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7969: Console command "alias" can stack overflow and crash (bypassing crash handler)
20:44:27  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7969: Console command "alias" can stack overflow and crash (bypassing crash handler)
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21:09:36  <glx> I guess something like should work
21:10:17  <LordAro> ugly
21:10:24  <LordAro> and wouldn't reset for successive alias calls
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21:45:34  <glx> updated with something cleaner I think
22:00:41  <nielsm> I'd change the error message to something slightly less computer sciency, "Too many alias expansions, aborting." maybe
22:01:14  <nielsm> or "Too many alias expansions, recursion limit reached. Aborting."
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22:49:22  <TrueBrain> "I tried to follow aliases for more than ten times. Aborting" or something. Naming the limit and avoiding 'recursion' would help for the average Joe I think
22:50:22  <TrueBrain> "Alias calling an alias calling more aliases .. and this for more than ten times. Aborting"
22:50:24  <TrueBrain> :D
22:58:07  <LordAro> it is a console command
22:58:13  <LordAro> doesn't need to be totally average Joe
22:59:19  <TrueBrain> Small effort, huge gain ;)
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