Log for #openttd on 16th February 2020:
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00:03:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8002: Doc: [Script] Add a note about how wagon connectivity works for scripts
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02:27:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda commented on pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14)
02:28:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda updated pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14)
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07:32:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SoothedTau commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
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08:14:46  <andythenorth> o/
08:15:09  <LordAro> o/
08:25:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8002: Doc: [Script] Add a note about how wagon connectivity works for scripts
08:34:04  <andythenorth> so is it evil to try and import python modules from a parent dir?
08:34:21  <andythenorth> I currently have a shared library vendored into src/ because otherwise I can't import it
08:34:23  <LordAro> generally indicates you need to restructure your python project
08:34:35  <andythenorth> having shared libraries in src is evil
08:35:15  <andythenorth> importing from parent is evil
08:35:18  <andythenorth> oof
08:36:10  <andythenorth> I could install the library to virtualenv
08:36:21  <andythenorth> but it's not on pip, and then nobody else will be able to build my project
08:36:25  <LordAro> that would be what i would expect
08:36:37  <LordAro> pip can install from not-pypi
08:36:48  <andythenorth> hmm
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08:37:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7329: Occasional hang on game exit (GUI)
08:40:09  <andythenorth> what's the current issue count?
08:40:16  <andythenorth> 86
08:40:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7337: Audio driver crash on quit - fluidsynth/SDL
08:41:19  <andythenorth> has a PR
08:41:43  <andythenorth> I find around 70 is some kind of magic number in project issues, it's a manageable amount
08:42:06  <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah, but doing anything with that involves convincing peter1138 to update it
08:42:16  <andythenorth> well he won't be riding a bike today
08:42:24  <LordAro> probably not, no
08:42:27  <LordAro> i know i'm not
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09:07:47  <andythenorth> mmv is such a good tool
09:08:02  <LordAro> this is a suspicious number
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09:09:01  <andythenorth> is it because of the -1?
09:09:04  <andythenorth> where's the caller? :P
09:09:25  <andythenorth> hmm
09:10:42  <andythenorth> I'm not very good at using blame :P
09:11:15  <andythenorth> ?
09:12:18  <LordAro> so it's definitely been there a while...
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10:21:57  <andythenorth> hmm how to describe Joker trains in Iron Horse?
10:23:59  <andythenorth> they're eye candy or novely trains
10:23:59  <andythenorth> novelty *
10:26:08  <andythenorth> Jokers are trains that are included for novelty value, and may not have much of a transport role.  For example snowploughs, driving cab cars and very slow locomotives.
10:27:21  <andythenorth> I guess that works
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10:42:40  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I currently have a shared library vendored into src/ because otherwise I can't import it <-- sounds like you need a library import path
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10:48:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: maybe
10:49:02  <andythenorth> SO says that adding to sys path is wrong
10:49:09  <andythenorth> and that shared libraries in src are wrong
10:49:19  <andythenorth> and I'm not packaging this for pypi
10:49:38  <andythenorth> basically what I need to do is wrong, according to SO
10:49:40  <andythenorth> no surprise
10:49:49  <andythenorth> meanwhile Horse 100%
10:50:23  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes you have only wrong solutions
10:52:28  <andythenorth> the big python web frameworks just manipulate path
10:52:30  <andythenorth> it's pretty standard
10:53:03  <andythenorth> [afaict]
11:25:23  <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah, but you're not a big python web framework
11:25:37  <LordAro> what is the shared library?
11:26:08  <andythenorth>
11:26:16  <andythenorth> it's just a bunch of constants and sprites
11:26:19  <andythenorth> used across all my grfs
11:28:30  <nielsm> make it a git remote and have a configure step that uses python setuptools to install it in the venv
11:28:45  <nielsm> configure or build step
11:30:00  <andythenorth> yes, that's how the big frameworks do this sort of thing
11:30:08  <andythenorth> I don't have any build step at all for newgrfs
11:30:15  <andythenorth> so I'd have to add all that :)
11:31:18  <LordAro> seems like it'd be pretty easy to rework polar-fox into a standard python module
11:31:28  <LordAro> then you can just import it as you would any other python thing
11:32:19  <andythenorth> how would it be vendored in, especially for people who aren't me? :)
11:32:37  <andythenorth> this might all be over-complicated, maybe we should do something more interesting :)
11:32:47  <LordAro>
11:33:15  <andythenorth> as a library it has no API versioning strategy
11:33:32  <andythenorth> it relies on the 'correct' version being the one that is currently committed
11:33:32  <LordAro> but it could do
11:33:50  <andythenorth> it's not really a library in any meaningful way I guess
11:33:55  <andythenorth> it's just a bunch of shared assets
11:34:06  <LordAro> or you could just make sure all GRFs are required to use the latest version
11:34:25  <andythenorth> that would break building older revs
11:34:26  <andythenorth> hmm
11:34:35  <andythenorth> maybe I have the least-worst solution already
11:34:38  <LordAro> how often do you need to do that?
11:34:38  <andythenorth> it's just weird
11:34:48  <andythenorth> I build old tags fairly frequently
11:34:51  <andythenorth> dunno about other people
11:34:58  <andythenorth> I see frosch do it to bisect bugs
11:35:12  <LordAro> maybe git submodule would be better?
11:35:23  <LordAro> failing that, you would need some sort of versioning
11:35:25  <andythenorth> or sys path :P
11:35:34  <nielsm> yeah a git submodule always points at a particular revision of the references repository
11:35:37  <andythenorth> I don't mind that it's committed, but I mind that it's in src
11:35:42  <LordAro> though you can require a particular commit via pip install with a git repo
11:35:52  <nielsm> and the submodule pointer is also part of the git revision of the master repository
11:35:57  <andythenorth> same reason the bin scripts and Makefile aren't in src I guess, it's not src
11:36:12  <andythenorth> I've been told never to modify sys path
11:36:20  <andythenorth> well meaning advice, inappropriately applied?
11:37:03  <LordAro> it's a "never" in the same way you should never use gotos
11:37:11  <LordAro> they generally indicate some structural issue
11:37:27  <LordAro> but not always
11:37:41  <LordAro> i'm pretty sure it is some structural issue in this case though :p
11:38:15  <andythenorth> if I was doing this in a work project, it would be a versioned library
11:38:35  <andythenorth> although it might still be committed to the repo, like we commit jquery and bootstrap
11:38:54  <andythenorth> we don't bother relying on building from upstream for such trivial deps
11:39:07  <andythenorth> also the upstreams break and have to be mirrored :P
11:39:53  * andythenorth back to releasing Horse
11:40:10  <LordAro> yeah
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13:15:52  <andythenorth> FLHerne:
13:16:03  <FLHerne> pp
13:16:49  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That does look like several of the things I was asking for
13:16:51  <FLHerne> Thanks
13:16:56  <andythenorth> not sure if you'll like it
13:17:00  <andythenorth> but the feedback was useful
13:17:12  <andythenorth> as it was considered feedback, not just speak brainz
13:17:46  <FLHerne> Anyone want to play a Horse multiplayer game in a bit, then? :P
13:17:54  <andythenorth> I could
13:17:54  * FLHerne needs to walk the dog first
13:18:08  <andythenorth> shall I put FIRS v4 alpha on bananas?
13:18:12  <andythenorth> Steeltown is nuts
13:18:22  <andythenorth> it's the only thing I play now :P
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13:18:35  <andythenorth> not sure everyone will like it :D
13:18:37  <FLHerne> Might be fun
13:18:40  <Samu> hi
13:18:50  <FLHerne> I like the gameplay of Steeltown, but not the theme :P
13:19:23  <FLHerne> (it's not very realistic for the world to contain only heavy industry) ;-)
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13:19:58  <andythenorth> I like the flow
13:20:06  <andythenorth> it's very interconnected, but in a way that builds up
13:20:25  <andythenorth> I'd like to do the same for a town-focussed economy, but I never figured it out yet
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14:52:59  <andythenorth> hmm I should do this NRT docs stuff :|
14:53:00  <andythenorth> oof
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16:07:27  <andythenorth> ok this page
16:08:47  <glx> what about it ?
16:09:31  <andythenorth> less red needed
16:10:06  <glx> oh
16:10:22  <glx> I'll take a look, some may be easy to do
16:10:41  <andythenorth> thanks :)
16:10:56  <glx> the implementation part ;à
16:11:06  <glx> doc is not my thing
16:14:16  <andythenorth> I can draft docs for nml
16:14:25  <andythenorth> I don't like it, but my implementations are probably worse :P
16:14:45  <andythenorth> one day the nml docs go in the repo, as part of the PR :P
16:28:20  <glx> what's best for openttd version ? full, split or both ?
16:36:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm concerned that suggesting there's two things when internally it's the same thing might be misleading a few people
16:38:13  <nielsm> agree there, don't pretend there's two distinct properties when it's the same returning different things depending on circumstances
16:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'm afraid the CSUR stuff is a tiny bit too much, memory-wise
16:48:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
16:54:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
16:55:37  <andythenorth> what are industry vars 88..89?
16:55:41  <andythenorth> they're undocumented
16:57:10  <andythenorth> same for 8A..8D and similar
16:57:17  <andythenorth> nml does not know about them either
16:57:33  <LordAro> do they actually exist?
16:57:44  <LordAro> were they added specifically for something george or mb wanted? :p
16:58:00  <andythenorth> dunno
16:58:03  <andythenorth> no docs :)
16:59:03  <andythenorth> top google result is
16:59:07  <andythenorth> saying they need deprecated
16:59:09  <LordAro> these?
16:59:33  <andythenorth> ooh
16:59:50  <LordAro> i might be looking in the wrong place
16:59:56  * LordAro doesn't know GRFs
17:00:09  <andythenorth> no they look correct
17:00:28  <andythenorth> I wonder (1) what they're for (2) why they need deprecated (3) why they're not documented
17:01:02  <LordAro> also these
17:01:25  <andythenorth> yes
17:01:36  <andythenorth> some of those are more obvious, they relate to 16-cargo industry chagne
17:01:38  <andythenorth> change *
17:02:03  <andythenorth> presumably we don't delete them from OpenTTD?
17:02:14  <andythenorth> do we need to mark them as deprecated in src?
17:03:32  <andythenorth> newgrf spec is a bit of a disaster at the moment, I can see why frosch has quit
17:05:23  <andythenorth> we can rebuild him!
17:06:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 8x variables are generally something inherited from TTD(patch)
17:07:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #82: Feature: global var 0x21/0xA1: openttd_version, openttd_major, openttd_minor, openttd_revision, openttd_build
17:07:25  <glx> should be enough
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17:08:39  <glx> oh I scared him
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17:08:48  <andythenorth> Horse!  [££ bit much]
17:09:45  <andythenorth> you scared my connection away glx
17:09:50  <andythenorth> it's easily spooked here
17:13:24  <michi_cc> andythenorth: 80+x is "documented" here:
17:18:20  <andythenorth> ok so 9E and friends are there
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17:21:08  <glx> hmm I guess for house property 0x23 a full replacement of original 0x0D..0x0F and 0x1E is required
17:28:49  <andythenorth> how did nielsm do it for industries?
17:29:10  <glx> industry tiles prop 0x13 is not done yet :)
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17:30:31  <andythenorth> I think nml magically implements 0x13
17:30:33  * andythenorth checks
17:30:57  <glx> I think it doesn't, I have the code in front of me :)
17:31:08  <andythenorth> hmm
17:31:16  <andythenorth> something makes it work in FIRS
17:31:22  * andythenorth looks
17:32:15  <andythenorth>             special_flags: bitmask(INDTILE_FLAG_ACCEPT_ALL);
17:32:37  <glx> but 0x13 is for the tiles, not the industry itself
17:32:51  <andythenorth> yes
17:33:06  <andythenorth> I'm not sure why prop 0x13 even exists
17:33:25  <glx> for specific acceptance per tile
17:33:33  <andythenorth> for industries that's dumb
17:33:35  <andythenorth> for houses, ok
17:33:57  * andythenorth is a bad person to design the spec, I tend to discount other people's use cases
17:34:07  <glx> original refineries have different acceptance per tile
17:34:12  <glx> IIRC
17:34:23  <andythenorth> meanwhile INDTILE_FLAG_ACCEPT_ALL is not documented, I'll fix that
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17:38:19  <andythenorth> ugh translating all this for nml :(
17:39:42  <andythenorth> why is accepted_cargos still defined in nml?
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17:40:15  <andythenorth>
17:45:07  <andythenorth> wow this is fiddly
17:45:07  <andythenorth>
17:45:44  <andythenorth> INDTILE_FLAG_ACCEPT_ALL has to refer to accept_cargo_types which is nml < 0.5
17:46:03  <andythenorth> and also to cargo_types which is >= 0.5
17:46:43  <andythenorth> and it can't actually consider accept_cargo_types because INDTILE_FLAG_ACCEPT_ALL only exists in nml >= 0.5
17:47:07  <andythenorth> anybody care to verify this?  Strong chance I am writing broken docs here
17:48:56  <andythenorth> should tile prop 'accepted_cargos' be deprecated in nml?
17:49:01  <andythenorth> in favour of prop 0x13?
17:49:10  <andythenorth> we deprecated the old industry cargo acceptance properties
17:51:03  <TrueBrain> Ugh, having shitty internet sucks .. how do people live like this?
17:51:44  <TrueBrain> I can do 200 kbit/s ... joy
17:51:58  <TrueBrain> I wanna go home now
17:52:15  <glx> no need to deprecate andythenorth, just improve
17:53:53  <andythenorth> well we deprecated for the industry props
17:54:36  <glx> but accepted_cargos can just accept 16 pairs instead of 3
17:55:01  <glx> of course it's valid only for openttd >1.9
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17:57:16  <glx> oh I need to update regression output I think
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17:58:51  <LordAro> are we deprecating andythenorth now?
17:59:05  <andythenorth> can we deprecate my role in nml?
18:00:46  <andythenorth> can we deprecate the nml docs :)
18:00:50  <andythenorth> I really hate them
18:01:50  <glx> hmm ok no regression checks for industries it seems
18:02:57  <LordAro> sounds like you should write some ;)
18:09:24  <andythenorth> removed one red item :P
18:09:26  <andythenorth> hurrah
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18:16:04  * andythenorth tries to figure out industry vars 69..71
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18:17:57  <andythenorth> somewhat documented here
18:20:45  <andythenorth>
18:28:18  <andythenorth> I improved, does this look right?
18:29:42  <andythenorth> possibly should be a table not a list, I looked for examples, but usually it's one heading per var
18:37:55  <andythenorth> nml docs list vars like produced_this_month_1
18:38:05  <andythenorth> but they don't exist in nml src
18:38:52  <andythenorth> oof
18:49:24  <andythenorth> ok removed here
18:49:28  <andythenorth> not documented
18:49:47  * andythenorth will fix
19:02:58  <andythenorth> this is ugly AF :)
19:03:05  <andythenorth> I haven't added the new vars yet
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19:22:03  <andythenorth> this deprecates industry var 8A and 8C
19:22:15  <andythenorth> but it doesn't cover 8B and 8D which this mentions
19:22:44  <andythenorth> nml master doesn't know industry vars 0x8B or 0x8D
19:23:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8002: Doc: [Script] Add a note about how wagon connectivity works for scripts
19:23:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8002: Doc: [Script] Add a note about how wagon connectivity works for scripts
19:23:55  <andythenorth> can anyone figure out what 0x8B and 0x8D are?
19:24:42  <andythenorth> frosch123: are 8B and 8D just an oversight?
19:25:21  <Wolf01> Shit, I didn't watch star trek friday
19:25:31  <andythenorth> same for 0x95 and 0x97
19:25:37  <andythenorth> I can't find those vars
19:26:44  <andythenorth> and 0xA3 and 0xA5
19:27:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 commented on pull request #82: Feature: global var 0x21/0xA1: openttd_version, openttd_major, openttd_minor, openttd_revision, openttd_build
19:28:49  <frosch123> andythenorth:
19:29:08  <andythenorth> yes
19:29:34  <frosch123> 8B is the second byte for 8A, 8D is the second byte to 8C
19:29:48  <frosch123> you wouldn't document that
19:29:56  <frosch123> that is openttd staying compatible to ttdp weirdness
19:30:12  <andythenorth> ok
19:30:33  <andythenorth> so in terms of deprecating it in nml and documenting it?
19:30:36  <andythenorth> they're a no-op?
19:30:47  <frosch123> on that page you can see that there is a gap after every 80+x variable with size "W"
19:31:07  <andythenorth> oh I see
19:31:08  <andythenorth> yes
19:31:12  <frosch123> i added "see also variable 6xy" to the nfo wiki
19:31:17  <andythenorth> yes
19:31:31  <andythenorth> I just expanded those to explain what each var is
19:31:33  <frosch123> but i only added it to those, which were already documented before
19:31:48  <andythenorth> we don't really have a format for 'list of multiple vars under a heading'
19:31:52  <andythenorth> I just used a list :P
19:32:00  <frosch123> i didn't feel like adding docs for variables getting deprecated, when they were not documented before :p
19:32:06  <andythenorth> fair
19:32:08  <frosch123> kind of post-mortem-docs
19:32:20  <andythenorth> once this is done
19:32:27  <andythenorth> I propose we never change newgrf ever again :P
19:32:33  <andythenorth> it's way too painful to document
19:36:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: less red / yellow here now
19:36:38  <andythenorth> 88..89 have me baffled
19:37:30  <andythenorth> 	Types of cargo produced?
19:38:43  <andythenorth> can't find any historical nml support for 0x88 or 0x89
19:39:11  <andythenorth> nor 90...92 which I assume are Types of cargo accepted
19:39:58  <frosch123> that's good then :)
19:40:21  <frosch123> those vars do not exist as 16 cargo-versions
19:40:40  <frosch123> they were pretty pointless anyway
19:41:11  <frosch123> if nml does not know them, there is nothing to update
19:42:33  <andythenorth> I've added a new colour to the grid :P
19:43:10  <andythenorth> the nfo spec for those vars, I'm interpreting from
19:44:01  <andythenorth> I'll add a note for nfo spec column
19:45:34  <andythenorth> frosch123: can those cyan notes just be N/A then?
19:47:07  <frosch123> i made them N/A
19:47:30  <andythenorth> great
19:47:49  <andythenorth> I will have to write docs for the new nml industry vars
19:48:05  <andythenorth> this table will become so ugly :)
19:48:39  <frosch123> some docs already seem be present
19:50:14  <andythenorth> incoming_cargo_waiting and friends need added
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20:01:48  <andythenorth> I've added the new vars
20:02:00  <andythenorth> under "Variables that require some parameters."
20:04:43  <andythenorth> hurrah! most of the 1.9 stuff is done
20:05:22  <andythenorth> anyone want to review this weird flag?
20:05:26  <andythenorth> I have not added tests or example use
20:05:35  <andythenorth> I have NFI what it's for, or why anyone would ever ever want it
20:07:36  <andythenorth> :)
20:14:17  <andythenorth> why does this add var 71?
20:14:36  <andythenorth> already 6D does that?
20:14:41  <andythenorth> or is it % versus absolute?
20:15:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #82: Feature: global var 0x21/0xA1: openttd_version, openttd_major, openttd_minor, openttd_revision, openttd_build
20:15:58  <andythenorth> ok, I fix the docs for 6D :P
20:17:17  <glx> andythenorth: variable 21/A1 in is wrong, it's already implemented
20:17:43  <andythenorth> want to edit that then? :)
20:18:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 closed pull request #82: Feature: global var 0x21/0xA1: openttd_version, openttd_major, openttd_minor, openttd_revision, openttd_build
20:18:42  <andythenorth> oops, I think I did mention that var in glx :)
20:18:47  <andythenorth> sorry if you wasted time
20:19:38  <glx> took me 5 minutes ;)
20:19:44  <glx> so not a big waste
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20:20:50  <glx> basically there's nothing to change with git, maybe at one point build will be increased but the meaning of the variable won't change
20:22:03  <glx> and yes it was indeed mentioned in #80, I just overlooked the info :)
20:23:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened issue #83: Support for industry vars 0x70 and 0x71 needed.
20:23:25  <andythenorth> so just need to update docs, wiki spec table and close #80 :P
20:23:26  <andythenorth> oof
20:23:48  <andythenorth> I have so many open tabs for nml stuff now :P
20:26:19  <andythenorth> glx fancy doing 83? o_O
20:26:39  <glx> I'm on accepted_cargos
20:27:37  <andythenorth> :D
20:27:40  <andythenorth> I'll try 83
20:34:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened pull request #84: Add: industry vars 0x70 and 0x71
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20:50:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #83: Support for industry vars 0x70 and 0x71 needed.
20:52:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #84: Add: industry vars 0x70 and 0x71
20:56:10  <andythenorth> frosch123: progress!
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21:50:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #80: openttd_version: OpenTTD var 21/1A result has changed since OpenTTD moved to git
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22:05:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #8006: Only store 1024 news messages
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22:14:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
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22:52:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8006: Only store 1024 news messages
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23:06:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8006: Only store 1024 news messages
23:07:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8006: Only store 1024 news messages
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23:25:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
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23:26:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
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