Log for #openttd on 16th May 2020:
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06:16:04  <andythenorth> yo
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08:12:21  <andythenorth> natural gas cargo label?
08:12:22  <andythenorth> METH?
08:17:24  <nielsm> except for things that already have a cargo label I'd say go with chemical formulas
08:17:42  <nielsm> MTHN if you don't want chemistry
08:17:52  <andythenorth> CH4_
08:18:13  <andythenorth> I am childishly amused by having ACID, COKE, METH and SLAG as cargo labels
08:18:26  <andythenorth> maybe I could do E___
08:19:02  <andythenorth> hmm, I haven't played Dope Wars for years
08:21:08  <andythenorth> DOS Box in the browser :D
08:50:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i might be wrong here, but "natural gas" is mostly ethane, as it has more energy content and can be transported more easily?
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08:53:33  <andythenorth> I think there's a gas treatment plant step
08:54:42  <andythenorth> I might drop the top left part of this diagram, and just import methanol
08:55:31  <andythenorth> Steeltown is 'super realistic'...complete representation of steel industry....except where I dropped some stuff for gameplay reasons
08:56:14  <andythenorth> e.g. all the many alloying metals are represented by manganese and ferro-chrome
08:57:10  <andythenorth> if natural gas is present, then I need to consider ammonia from natural gas instead of naphtha
09:21:32  <Eddi|zuHause> is that a thing that actually happens on an industrial scale?
09:28:14  <andythenorth> yes
09:28:30  <andythenorth> a lot of the commodity chemicals have multiple viable processes
09:28:55  <andythenorth> the process used seems to depend very much on locally available feedstocks
09:29:50  <andythenorth> it's moderately confusing for grf design :P
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10:01:45  <stefino> hi guys. I had a few months break and now I see that there is a new version of Bananas. I read two ways how to migrate packages, I have a github account but I have no idea how this new bananas works or where the difference is?
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10:05:11  <andythenorth>
10:08:25  <stefino> and still unable to upload files bigger than XY MB via web uploader like before?
10:38:15  <LordAro> try it and find out!
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12:13:08  <FLHerne> "Want to run your own BaNaNaS" ?
12:13:48  <FLHerne> Perhaps there should be a SimuScape one without the old-save-support guarantee :p
12:46:47  <andythenorth> oh simuscape
12:46:51  <andythenorth> I had forgotten
12:47:04  <andythenorth> I think Maria got bored, not many posts in recent years
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13:01:24  <FLHerne> Hm, in-game BaNaNaS repository list? :D
13:01:36  <FLHerne> Or paste in a URL or something
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13:04:41  <FLHerne> Hm, right now it's extremely hardcoded
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13:32:51  <Borg> yoo
13:33:01  <Borg> signal spacing..... what you guys use most often?
13:33:12  <Borg> I started w/ 7 tiles.. moved to 5.. now im thinking.. about 3...
13:33:25  <Borg> but I feel its... ekhm. too hardcore
13:33:52  <frosch123> odd numbers are weird
13:34:32  <Borg> why?
13:34:41  <frosch123> you cannot half them later on
13:35:02  <Borg> hmm.. I never half signals...
13:35:23  <Borg> I either spread the more by 1.. or.. shrink them by 1
13:35:31  <Borg> if I add intersection.. or there is misalign
13:35:41  <frosch123> with certain settings signals can be expensive
13:36:19  <frosch123> so when i used to play, i usually first build single track, then double-track with a few signals, then something ilke distance 32 or 16
13:36:40  <frosch123> when some of the early lines turn into mainlines, it can be reduced to 8 or even 4
13:37:16  <Borg> but.. odd numbers are better for that..
13:37:41  <frosch123> maybe we are counting differen then :p
13:37:48  <Borg> right..
13:37:52  <Borg> lets see my setting
13:38:03  <frosch123> the idea is to put a signal in the middle and have both sides equally distant
13:38:52  <Borg> ah.. yeah. I count empty tiles..
13:38:56  <Borg> my current sidnal density is 6
13:39:00  <Borg> I started w/ 8
13:39:17  <Borg> but moving to 4 is too hardcore I think ;)
13:39:46  <Borg> its too dense.. imo
13:43:01  <Borg> but.. in games I often see players spamming them even at 2!!
13:44:01  <Borg> maybe I should set density to 5...
13:44:14  <Borg> then I can use... 4 or 6.. depending in situation..
13:47:14  <Borg> 6 looks good tho...
13:50:10  <Samu> _dp_ i can't reproduce a desync
13:50:17  <Samu> what am I doing wrong
14:02:38  <Samu> ah, i got something
14:02:39  <Samu> town stations near mismatch: town 34
14:03:56  <Samu> but I don't get the game desyncing
14:04:06  <Samu> server, client still connected
14:04:43  <Samu> gonna test again
14:20:09  <_dp_> frosch123, "certain" settings are everything without newgrf :p
14:20:18  <_dp_> and not even sure if newgrfs fix that
14:21:05  <frosch123> "fix" is subjective
14:21:12  <_dp_> Samu, yeah, it was already a pain to get that save so I didn't bother to get actual desync in game
14:21:43  <_dp_> Samu, you need to transport something somewhere but that changes random and well, whatever
14:22:04  <_dp_> Samu, if CheckCaches says they desync it's already good enough
14:22:57  <Samu> hmm
14:23:03  <_dp_> frosch123, fix is not have them be 3/4 of rail property maintenance :p
14:23:56  <_dp_> I'd happily make them free if I could
14:26:29  <_dp_> trying to manage signal gap to actually optimize maintenance is way too annoying currently
14:27:06  <_dp_> if you could just click a button and reduce gap on a existing line then mb
14:36:51  <Samu> i'm trying to understand what is town->stations_near used for
14:37:04  <Samu> seems it's not used for anything important
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14:38:22  <_dp_> it's used for house production for example
14:39:04  <_dp_> but here it forgets to remove station so just production won't desync it afaict
14:46:55  <_dp_> hm, looks like there in no harm to having extra stuff in town's station_near currently
14:47:07  <_dp_> so mb it couldn't actually desync in game but whatever
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15:03:12  <Samu> station acceptance doesn't change immediately, and it seems not related to t->stations_near
15:05:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 updated pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn
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15:14:29  <Samu> Is town->stations_near used for some hidden newgrf feature ...
15:15:05  <Samu> cus it doesn't seem important for syncing purposes
15:15:58  <Samu> maybe I'm wrong
15:18:22  <Samu> there's a stations nearby for AIs but it's for industryies only
15:19:38  <Samu> if it were for towns, I don't think it would matter, as AIs are only run on the server
15:20:07  <Samu> so, it's kinda doing nothing? it just exists
15:30:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 commented on issue #7992: Bridges with both road and tram catenary only draw one of them
15:37:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on issue #7992: Bridges with both road and tram catenary only draw one of them
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16:27:48  <andythenorth> hmm
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17:01:25  <andythenorth> FIRS gets more FML :)
17:01:33  <andythenorth> I have so many cargos across the economies
17:01:43  <andythenorth> running out of unique cargo colours in the set :)
17:06:00  <frosch123> where are colors used? in the graphs? who uses them?
17:08:01  <andythenorth> I assume people?
17:08:13  <andythenorth> I use them about once a year when setting cargo payment curves
17:08:49  * andythenorth wonders if they could just be auto-assigned
17:10:26  <andythenorth> yak-shaving: unique cargo icon, unique cargo colour, unique 2-char code for station window, unique payment rate to prevent overlap in charts
17:10:35  <andythenorth> probably spend more time doing that than drawing industry sprites
17:10:47  <andythenorth> because it's a tedious cascading packing problem
17:11:06  <andythenorth> changing one cargo to space the colour out visually from others might mean rearranging 5 more
17:11:17  <andythenorth> same for forcing a unique payment amount
17:11:27  <andythenorth> and these stupid 2 char codes
17:11:32  <andythenorth> :D
17:14:56  <andythenorth> hmm
17:15:10  <andythenorth> does it matter that cargo colours might change between FIRS economies?
17:15:22  <andythenorth> does coal have to be black?
17:15:35  <andythenorth> does mail have to be white?
17:15:36  <andythenorth> :)
17:16:04  <andythenorth> can OpenTTD set them for me? :P
17:18:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement
17:28:55  <andythenorth> 64 colours in preference order :P
17:29:03  <andythenorth> automatic assignment
17:31:18  <andythenorth> is it a terrible idea?  Or are players really very familiar with the exact colours of Ferrochrome and Rebar?
17:31:19  <andythenorth>
17:31:53  <andythenorth> tempted to just pick every 4th colour in the palette
17:41:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement
17:45:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:45  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:50:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: should be consistent
17:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: idea: cargos in the same chain should be similar colour, getting either lighter or darker in each stage
17:53:09  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you could implement a graph colouring algorithm for andy
17:55:10  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'd be going crazy with trying to keep it stable across new crazy ideas (i.e. about every 2 weeks)
17:56:33  <frosch123> what's the difference to now?
17:56:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause what defines same chain?
17:58:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: usually an uninterrupted line from primary cargo to customer product
18:00:31  <andythenorth> hmm
18:00:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if an industry has more input than output cargos, you have some creative freedom which matching defines the chain
18:01:27  <andythenorth> oh the colours are used in the cargo maps and cargo flow also
18:02:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cargodist graph
18:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: probably not the best graph layout to make the colour distribution from
18:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: vague algorithm for choosing a chain: 0) assume *supplies are special and ignore, 1) choose an end cargo (one that gets delivered to towns) [example: Vehicles], 2) choose an input cargo [e.g. vehicle engines], 3) continue at 2 for this cargo, until a primary industry is reached 4) start over with 1) for another cargo
18:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> this way you sort cargos into chains, while crossing them out from the graph (and thus simplifying the graph in each step)
18:10:58  <andythenorth> this requires more recursion than I can program :)
18:11:11  <andythenorth> but it would make a nice rainbow colour if done right
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18:16:39  <TrueBrain> completely unrelated, can I punch people who do my_Variable_Is_Cool ?
18:16:47  <TrueBrain> I mean ... pick one or the other, but BOTH?!
18:18:13  <frosch123> _MY_variable_Is_cooL
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18:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause> mYvArIaBlEiScOoL
18:19:27  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: now you need to reset your password :P
18:19:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i started programming in case insensitive languages :p
18:20:18  <frosch123> TrueBrain: anyway, don't be so harsh to xaroth
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18:28:33  <andythenorth> ok so I'll make the cargo colours algorithmic
18:28:43  <andythenorth> and Eddi|zuHause will do a PR to change the alogorithm :P
18:28:56  <andythenorth> can OpenTTD do it instead? :P
18:29:06  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i don't think so :p
18:32:08  <frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: it's sufficient if you provide the strategy-functor
18:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's not the kind of colouring that we want
18:33:22  <frosch123> quite sure it is
18:33:35  <frosch123> you just have to specifiy what graph to feed into it
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18:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you need some graph that both has connections between all cargos in the same economy, as well as preserving additional chain information for the strategy....
18:47:25  <frosch123> you connect all cargos which shall not have the same colour
18:47:49  <frosch123> and you group all cargos which shalll have the same/similar cargo into one node
18:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't see any mention of how it should maintain stability over slight changes of the graph
18:48:09  <frosch123> but i don't think the latter is possible at all
18:48:23  <frosch123> why is stability a goal
18:48:26  <andythenorth> it's not
18:48:31  <frosch123> good :)
18:48:32  <andythenorth> OpenTTD decides :P
18:49:09  <frosch123> how many "good" colors are there? 16?
18:49:26  <Samu> 64 cargoes for 16 colors?
18:49:48  <Eddi|zuHause> this would be utterly hopeless with 16 colours
18:49:56  <frosch123> i prefer a "honest" solution, where some cargos get the same color, instead of assigning slightly different colors that noone can distinguish unless they are next to each other
18:50:21  <Eddi|zuHause> which is why i brought up the idea to have changes of brightness within the chain
18:50:34  <frosch123> chains are a myth
18:50:54  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The cargo linkgraph view would be confusing with random colours
18:51:02  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Because it's that and the 2-letter code
18:51:14  <FLHerne> And the 2-letter code is not always terribly obvious
18:51:45  <frosch123> isn't cdist for pax only?
18:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: stability is a very preferable goal for long term users
18:51:50  <FLHerne> frosch123: No
18:52:08  <FLHerne> It can be set to be, and some foolish people do
18:52:41  <frosch123> i know that it *can* be set. but do you want to target the foolish?
18:52:47  <FLHerne> But the One True Way is to enable it for everything
18:52:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
18:53:07  <FLHerne> frosch123: No, it's foolish to set it to be pax-only :p
18:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> "foolish" is if you think anyone playing not-your-way is "foolish"
18:54:34  <frosch123> eddi and the empty set :)
18:55:16  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: I thought capitalizing "One True Way" would be clear enough ;-)
18:56:10  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: this was directed more against frosch123 than you :p
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19:19:14  <andythenorth> those 2 letter cargos are their own problem
19:19:30  <andythenorth> frosch123 there are 64 good colours :P
19:19:42  <andythenorth> just pick every 4th colour from the DOS palette
19:19:54  <andythenorth> and if it's pink, increment the counter until it isn't :P
19:34:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #144: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work, and avoid creating dirs with --no-cache
19:34:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne closed pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given.
19:35:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you eliminate all the pink and blinking colours, it gets lower quickly
19:35:24  <FLHerne> frosch123: Can you please take a look at #144 ^ if/when you have time?
19:39:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement
19:39:36  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: And why can't we have blinking cargo colours?
19:40:09  <FLHerne> andy can add "Fairy Lights" to the FIRS Consumer Junk economy
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19:43:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #144: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work, and avoid creating dirs with --no-cache
19:43:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement
19:43:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement
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19:55:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement
19:57:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement
19:58:27  <andythenorth>
19:58:35  <andythenorth> cargo_payment_list_colour: ${4 * cargo.get_numeric_id(economy)};
19:58:36  <andythenorth> :P
19:58:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement
19:59:16  <andythenorth> ^^ frosch123 probably not ideal, but proves there's no point manually setting them :D
19:59:24  <andythenorth> that's not worse than the hours I've spent picking colours
19:59:36  <_dp_> third time the charm :/
19:59:39  * _dp_ hates git
20:05:08  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's not really a sane example
20:05:37  <FLHerne> The reason cargos are toggleable is so I can compare a meaningful subset
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20:06:35  <andythenorth> hmm
20:06:41  <FLHerne> For the pile of weird cargos it makes no difference
20:06:50  <andythenorth> does that give us anything we can use as a heuristic though?
20:06:54  <FLHerne> But I'm very used to pax being blue and coal black
20:07:00  <andythenorth> I can't know what cargos you want to compare in advance
20:07:10  <FLHerne> Probably not
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20:08:01  <FLHerne> I just meant: it's an unreadable giant mess with every cargo enabled, so random colours makes no difference there
20:08:18  <andythenorth>
20:08:26  <andythenorth> is the carefully manually curated version
20:08:36  <andythenorth> I'm not convinced it was worth the effort
20:08:53  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's *exactly* my point
20:09:10  <andythenorth> if we didn't have the curves, it could be just a bar chart
20:09:24  <FLHerne> In that state, it's useless regardless of the colours, so no-one tries to use it in that state
20:09:54  <FLHerne> So comparing curated to random in a useless state that no-one uses isn't meaningful
20:10:50  <FLHerne> Although tbh the cargo payment graph isn't much use in FIRS anyway, because the chains matter much more...
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20:27:31  <andythenorth> so what to do about the stupid 2 letter codes?
20:28:04  <andythenorth> stupid / not especially helpful /s
20:29:12  <FLHerne> They could be 3-letter codes and still fit in the boxes :p
20:30:33  <andythenorth>
20:30:38  <andythenorth> rebar is REBAR now
20:30:46  <andythenorth> not RB :P
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21:13:46  <Samu> abreviations can have more than 2 chars?
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21:28:32  <nielsm> nothing in the code is directly limiting them
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21:29:50  <andythenorth> seems to be a convention
21:29:54  <andythenorth> 2 chars, tiny font
21:30:18  <nielsm> if you control all cargos you could just change to 3 characrers on everything
21:31:28  <andythenorth> I considered using the labels :P
21:35:16  <milek7> cargo legend UI is.. bad
21:37:59  <andythenorth> it's pretty useless
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22:29:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names
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