Log for #openttd on 27th May 2020:
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00:00:47  *** cHawk- has joined #openttd
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00:17:45  <LordAro> Speeder_: look at other usages of it, you should be able to work out how it works and what it's doing
00:18:00  <LordAro> and more importantly, the correct parameters to give to it
00:24:01  <Gadg8eer> So, I've been told to follow these instructions to get the "make" command working...
00:24:52  <Gadg8eer> I installed it on my normal windows user, but it looks like it has to be installed as an admin.
00:26:53  <Gadg8eer> I went for a walk and then tried to follow the steps on my admin account, but it looks like Microsoft removed Ubuntu from the store within the last 3 hours, because...
00:27:34  <Gadg8eer> ...I'm getting a message that the page no longer exists.
00:27:54  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> How do I construct places where streetcars can do u-turns?
00:34:51  <glx> Gadg8eer: the page works here
00:36:19  <Gadg8eer> That's odd.
00:37:07  <Gadg8eer> Temporary outage, apparently. Sorry to bother you all.
00:40:44  <glx> ply and nml steps in this wiki are outdated
00:41:09  <glx> I think you probably just need "pip install nml"
00:44:29  <glx> well "pip install nml==0.4.5" is probably better if you want to compile an old grf
00:48:05  <Gadg8eer> No, I need make because I'm trying to compile OpenGFX Mars Habitats.
00:48:40  <glx> yes but you'll need nml in wsl env
00:50:09  <Gadg8eer> So when I get to NML in the instructions I should use "pip install NML"?
00:50:12  <Speeder_> LordAro, I tried that but I don't know not even what to search for, to find other usages
00:51:02  <glx> yes and ignore ply step, installing nml will get the deps
00:52:14  <glx> and I think for opengfx+ mars you'll need a pre-0.5 version so "pip install nml==0.4.5"
00:52:25  <Gadg8eer> Can I safely ignore TortoiseHG? It's giving an error when I use "sudo apt-get install TortoiseHG"...
00:53:07  <Gadg8eer> Sorry, that's in all lowercase when I type it.
00:53:17  <Gadg8eer> Stupid autocorrect.
00:54:34  <glx> replace this step with "pip install mercurial"
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00:58:34  <Gadg8eer> It says "Command 'pip' not found, but there are 18 similar ones."
00:59:00  <glx> ah of course pip is not installed
00:59:55  <glx> sudo apt-get install python3-pip
01:03:05  <Gadg8eer> "Package 'python3-pip' has no installation candidate"
01:03:51  <Gadg8eer> "Package python3-pip is not available, but is referred to by another package."
01:04:32  <glx> <-- but it exists
01:05:33  <Gadg8eer> Then why won't it install?
01:08:37  <Gadg8eer> I don't know what's wrong, I typed in exactly "sudo apt-get install python3-pip".
01:13:25  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> More of a gameplay-related question than a technical one - how do I get my trucks and buses to not travel all the way to the ends of roads?
01:13:34  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Or do I have to construct places for them to turn around?
01:15:10  <Gadg8eer> A turn around must either be a dead end (1x1 tile) or a loop (2x2 tile).
01:15:52  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I see.
01:15:54  <Gadg8eer> So yeah, you have to construct places to u-turn.
01:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> they won't turn around in the middle of the road, just at the end
01:16:35  <Gadg8eer> Unless you manually click the u-turn button, but that can't be automatically done via orders.
01:17:29  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I guess that makes sense. Otherwise everyone would be doing that.
01:17:44  <Gadg8eer> Any solution, glx ?
01:18:07  <glx> I don't see what's wrong
01:18:49  <Gadg8eer> Is it now called python3-pil? Because that installed something.
01:19:57  <glx> no pil is something else
01:20:35  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Should I focus on a specific region of the map or expand as much as possible?
01:21:02  <glx> hmm maybe universe repo is not enabled by default
01:21:18  <Gadg8eer> How do I enable it?
01:23:09  <glx> sudo add-apt-repository universe
01:24:00  <Gadg8eer> It says it's already enabled.
01:25:24  <Gadg8eer> Can you try doing it? Maybe it's not on my end.
01:25:44  <glx> maybe "sudo apt-get update" is needed on first start of wsl
01:26:16  <glx> and no I'm not planning to try wsl
01:26:39  <Gadg8eer> Alright, let's see if update works...
01:26:43  <glx> I already have msys2/mingw when I need make
01:27:07  <Gadg8eer> It works!
01:27:16  <Gadg8eer> Thank you!
01:28:20  <glx> usually before installing anything with apt the first step is always "apt-get update" but the coop wiki is missing it
01:32:18  <Gadg8eer> "pip install mercurial" still doesn't work, but "sudo apt-get install mercurial" did.
01:32:30  <Gadg8eer> Does that make sense?
01:34:07  <Gadg8eer> Same deal with NML.
01:56:20  <glx> ah yes nml is available in apt
01:59:30  <glx> oh it's pip3 not pip, silly naming, but makes sense
02:02:01  <glx> anyway not needed finally
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02:26:45  <Eddi|zuHause> <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Also, what world generation settings should I use if I want a mix between size and not taking too long to save? <- i'd say 512x512 is plenty of space. i once played a game on 1024x2048 with sparse town and barely covered half the map. the smallest meaningful game i played on a 128x256 map
02:27:05  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> All right.
02:31:15  <Gadg8eer> So I'm trying to use a batch file to compile OpenGFX Mars Houses and it's not working. Here's my batch file, someone please just edit it to what it should be...
02:32:04  <Gadg8eer>
02:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> where you wrote "PAUSE" it should have said "PROFIT" :p
02:37:05  <glx> can't you just type make in wsl shell ?
02:39:11  <Gadg8eer> "No targets specified and no makefile found."
02:39:24  <Gadg8eer> I tried cd, didn't work.
02:40:10  <Gadg8eer> I assume I need to move the source folder into a place where Linux can read it?
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02:40:48  <glx> where is the actual location ?
02:40:59  <glx> you may need to adapt the path
02:41:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the working directory must be the one that contains the "Makefile"
02:41:33  <Gadg8eer> C:\TTDTools\GRFs\OpenGFX_Mars_Late_Start\opengfx-mars-houses-5a67ec641605
02:41:49  <glx> I think it should be /mnt/c/TTDTools...
02:42:28  <Gadg8eer> Where is the mnt folder?
02:42:38  <Gadg8eer> Or is that a command?
02:42:42  <glx> in wsl
02:42:47  <glx> cd /mnt/c
02:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> /mnt is not a real folder
02:42:54  <glx> will move you to c:
02:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a placeholder to fit the windows drive letters in, which linux has no concept of
02:44:56  <Gadg8eer> cd /mnt/TTDTools/GRFs/OpenGFX_Mars_Late_Start/opengfx-mars-houses-5a67ec641605 didn't work.
02:45:23  <Gadg8eer> Oh.
02:45:29  <Gadg8eer> Okay, I see.
02:45:38  <glx> you forgot /c/
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02:46:57  <Gadg8eer> Oh boy. Added /c/ but I just opened a whole other can of worms.
02:47:07  <Gadg8eer> Hold on, let me post the output.
02:47:51  <Gadg8eer>
02:48:38  <glx> ah yes, nml 0.4.5 is a pain
02:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> that's good, though, because that means it went properly through most of the other steps before
02:49:12  <glx> and nml 0.5 will fail too because mars-houses source is too old
02:49:29  <glx> but indeed it means your setup is working
02:49:38  <Gadg8eer> Okay, that's good.
02:49:44  <Gadg8eer> So now what?
02:50:13  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a somewhat simple edit to nmlc 0.4 for the "clock" error
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02:50:54  <glx> easier way will be "pip3 install"
02:51:08  <glx> you'll get the current nml
02:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> <FLHerne>        blat.hijs: If it's just time.clock, making 0.4.5 run is trivial (`sed -i 's/time\.clock/time\.process_time/' nml/`)
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02:52:38  <glx> but nml files are hidden in system files
02:52:46  <Gadg8eer>
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02:53:48  <glx> ok same command but git+https://..
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02:55:29  <Gadg8eer>
02:55:37  <Gadg8eer> It worked but...
02:55:44  <Gadg8eer> See the above warning.
02:56:00  <Gadg8eer> Should I add to my path?
02:56:16  <Gadg8eer> I remember the path thing from installing NML
02:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how people would edit the path on WSL, normally you'd edit ~/.profile or something
02:57:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but there's like 20 different ways on linux
02:57:41  <glx> should be the same with wsl, it's ubuntu
02:57:54  <Gadg8eer> Huh. Well, the error from before is still showing up when I use make.
02:58:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because it's still using the old nmlc
02:58:19  <Eddi|zuHause> because the new one is not in your path
02:59:22  <Gadg8eer> So then how do I add it to my path?
02:59:27  <Eddi|zuHause> what also could work is something like "make NMLC=/blah/bin/nmlc"
02:59:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but that is only a temporary measure
03:00:45  <Gadg8eer> I'd rather fix it permanently.
03:01:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i already said everything i could about how to do that
03:02:29  <Gadg8eer> Alright, then temporary it is. How do I do that? NMLC=/?
03:02:42  <Gadg8eer> Which folder do I refer it to?
03:03:05  <glx> it's NML (just checked the makefile)
03:03:21  <glx> and you can add it to Makefile.config
03:03:48  <glx> NML=/home/kidpunk/.local/bin/nmlc
03:03:57  <Eddi|zuHause> you literally posted the folder like 10 minutes ago
03:04:45  <glx> but futureproof solution would be to add this bin dir in front of $PATH
03:05:53  <Gadg8eer> How would I do that?
03:06:16  <Gadg8eer> Also, looks like there's an issue in the header, going to take a look.
03:06:48  <Gadg8eer>
03:08:00  <Gadg8eer> Looks like this is where the issue is...
03:08:02  <Gadg8eer> version: NEWGRF_VERSION;
03:08:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, need to reset the nml parser cache
03:08:28  <glx> this line seems right, unless NEWGRF_VERSION was empty
03:12:01  <glx> what's the output of ./ ?
03:12:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i had this error as well after updating nmlc, it went away when i ran it with -D once
03:13:18  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno how the parser is cached usually
03:13:59  <glx> the issue here is the line seen by nmlc is probably version: ;
03:14:21  <glx> as this variable is replaced by cpp
03:15:02  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, that could be a problem, if the output is empty
03:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc could use better error reporting
03:16:24  <Gadg8eer> It probably is empty. Tbh, I don't need to use the version system originally used, since I plan to make this usable as a "future building set".
03:17:11  <Eddi|zuHause> you still need *some* version system
03:17:37  <Gadg8eer> Is it okay to replace it with 1 since it's the first version?
03:18:01  <glx> yes it should work
03:18:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it'll probably make it compile, but you don't want to change the version manually on every commit
03:18:43  <glx> but also change the GRFID if you plan to modify it
03:19:20  <Gadg8eer> Alright. Now I'm looking at something confusing. Even though I have a graphics folder with all the needed graphics...
03:19:44  <Gadg8eer> nmlc ERROR: Path "/mnt/c/TTDTools/GRFs/OpenGFX_Mars_Late_Start/opengfx-mars-houses-5a67ec641605/../graphics" does not exist (even after case conversions)
03:20:36  <glx> then graphics is not at the right place
03:21:03  <glx> it should be next to opengfx-mars
03:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause> probably a wrong working directory somewhere
03:22:30  <Gadg8eer> Oh. I see the issue. Everything is being directed to ../graphics/... Instead of /graphics/...
03:23:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably expecting to be run in the src/ directory, but isn't
03:23:33  <glx> well for opengfx-mars, graphics is a separated place
03:24:01  <glx> so graphics must be in the same level as opengfx-mars
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03:25:31  <glx> wow it's late (or early)
03:25:35  <glx> I should sleep
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03:34:31  <Gadg8eer> It works!
03:34:54  <Gadg8eer> Now I just need to move the changes to the modified version.
03:37:08  <Eddi|zuHause> hold your horses.
03:37:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you still need to fix the path, and find out why is returning empty strings
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05:35:38  <Speeder_> how I create a tileid from x and y?
05:35:41  <Speeder_> to use in a GS
06:05:04  * LordAro wonders if glx & Eddi|zuHause actually sleep
06:05:24  <LordAro> Speeder_: searching for instances of "seprintf" wouls be an excellent start
06:05:53  <LordAro> learning to navigate source code is an important skill, i'm not going to spoon feed it to you
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06:27:14  <Speeder_> LordAro, I wanted to know  if seprintf is the correct way to create signs in first place
06:27:47  <Speeder_> since you told me to search for them, I guess I can assume seprintf IS used to create signs after all. and that is what I needed to know.
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06:39:11  <Gadg8eer> Hey, Eddie? The NewGRF seems to work, but I'm not ignoring you. How can I check to make sure everything is okay?
06:41:32  <Gadg8eer> Eddi|zuHause: What should I look for to get find working?
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06:54:30  <andythenorth> o/
06:55:04  <LordAro> Speeder_: the fact that you're asking that question shows you don't understand what you're doing - seprintf has nothing (directly) to do with signs
06:55:21  <LordAro> mornin andy
07:03:38  <andythenorth> yo
07:07:56  <andythenorth> I have to stop reading the issues feed
07:08:06  <andythenorth> makes me want to leave OpenTTD :)
07:08:14  <andythenorth> such a waste of fucking time
07:08:52  <LordAro> lol
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07:45:43  <andythenorth> these cost bugs :)
07:45:54  <andythenorth> I know they're not 'correct'
07:46:16  <andythenorth> but the effect on gameplay is approximately equivalent to the random errors your CPU sometimes makes
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07:51:10  <LordAro> andythenorth: maybe we should add priority labels to issues
07:51:34  <LordAro> nothing more than low/medium/high/urgent
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08:22:03  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I don't understand why you care
08:23:04  <FLHerne> It's pointless and uninteresting, but clearly *someone* cares about it
08:23:35  <andythenorth> I seem to be a lot more completionist than average
08:23:40  <FLHerne> And it's presumably trivial to fix, should anyone both care and know C++
08:23:42  <andythenorth> to me a ticket is a thing that needs to be done
08:23:56  <andythenorth> the goal is to get out of life with no tickets left
08:23:58  <Samu> hi
08:24:12  <FLHerne> That seems silly
08:24:18  <andythenorth> programmers seem to see tickets more as 'lists of interesting things'
08:24:39  <FLHerne> Yeah, if you run out of tickets it means no-one's using your thing
08:24:58  <FLHerne> Because people report whatever bugs them most, even if it's trivial
08:25:23  <andythenorth> do you not avoid, e.g. projects on Github with sprawling issue counts?
08:25:29  <andythenorth> maybe that's just me
08:25:40  <FLHerne> So trivial issues are probably a good thing, because it means someone's unhappy about *that* and not their computer crashing
08:25:48  <FLHerne> No
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08:26:18  <FLHerne> No issues mean that no-one's actually used the thing
08:26:33  <LordAro> andythenorth: i don't really look at issue numbers, just whether the most recent few have had any activity on them
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08:26:47  <andythenorth> I always look
08:26:48  <FLHerne> So when *I* use it, it'll probably blow up and no-one will be able to help me with it
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08:27:24  <andythenorth> sprawling issues is a good sign of really poor attitude to housekeeping the project
08:27:31  <andythenorth> which probably means it's full of CVEs
08:27:48  <FLHerne> I mean, if the top issues are "aargh this ate my cat and emailed my SSL keys", then nope
08:27:49  <andythenorth> and is likely to have a poor release strategy
08:28:12  <FLHerne> I think your argument is circular
08:28:47  <andythenorth> if I close these cost bugs they'll get re-opened because it's a genuine bug
08:28:51  <andythenorth> but no-one will actually fix it
08:29:04  <andythenorth> so the argument that we care about the bugs can't be true
08:29:10  <FLHerne> Unclosed issues are bad because they give a poor impression because unclosed issues are bad
08:29:19  <andythenorth> and we only care because I'm closing one or two
08:29:27  <andythenorth> when I closed 800 on Flyspray, nobody cared
08:29:41  <FLHerne> We don't care any *more* about them by closing them...
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08:30:09  <andythenorth> this always divides the same way
08:30:13  <andythenorth> me and TB in one camp
08:30:17  <andythenorth> everyone else in the other
08:30:34  <FLHerne> This way we acknowledge it's there, and anyone who feels like fixing a trivial bug can pick one up and do it
08:30:57  <FLHerne> And if anyone complains, they can vote on the bug
08:31:21  <andythenorth> we still acknowledge it's there if I close it
08:31:25  <FLHerne> (and if against all odds the bug gets notably upvoted, we know it might actually be worth fixing)
08:31:32  * andythenorth is being badly behaved
08:31:42  <andythenorth> I have had this argument maybe a dozen times now :)
08:31:49  <andythenorth> and I was given close rights a long time ago :)
08:32:39  <FLHerne> But "acknowledging" open bugs by closing them just makes the "closed" state meaningless
08:32:44  <andythenorth> I just find it fascinating.  To do my actual job I have to empathise with users so I can understand what they want.
08:33:03  <andythenorth> But I have never managed to empathise with the large number of people who like keeping a longer and longer to-do list
08:33:15  <andythenorth> it's a failure on my part :)
08:33:38  <FLHerne> It's a computer, the bytes are literally free, because MS pays for them :p
08:33:54  <FLHerne> Why should the todo list not be infinite?
08:34:26  <andythenorth> how does one do it?
08:34:31  <FLHerne> The *real* to-do list of things people want fixed doesn't get shorter when you close digital issues
08:35:02  <FLHerne> So why deliberately prevent the digital one from matching the real one?
08:36:08  <FLHerne> They tend to automatically sort themselves in order of "critical" -> "two people have ever cares" over time
08:36:56  <andythenorth> dunno
08:37:04  <andythenorth> like I said, I've had the argument many times
08:37:08  <andythenorth> I never convince anyone
08:37:11  <andythenorth> and nobody ever convinces me
08:37:35  <andythenorth> I think it's a binary divide about the way people's brains work
08:37:47  <andythenorth> I literally want to quit the project when the issue count gets over 100
08:37:56  <andythenorth> it's massively overwhelming and depressing
08:38:00  <andythenorth> massive public failure
08:38:30  <andythenorth> we all have our thing :P
08:41:42  <FLHerne> Why is the fact that 100 people care about different trivial inconsistencies a massive failure?
08:43:18  <FLHerne> It means there are >100 players who (a) don't experience non-trivial bugs and (b) play enough to care about their pet trivial thing
08:43:36  <andythenorth> I think it's the failure to do anything about it
08:44:13  <andythenorth> also they're not 100 trivial inconsistencies also
08:44:23  <andythenorth> if it's valid as an issue, then it's serious
08:44:42  <FLHerne> In that case, I fail to see how closing the issue is a useful form of doing-about-it :p
08:44:53  <andythenorth> ah
08:45:01  <andythenorth> ok, yes
08:45:09  <FLHerne> It doesn't go away, you just avoid looking at it
08:45:12  <andythenorth> the reason is that it means the project is making decisions about quality
08:45:23  <andythenorth> that's the thing that bugs me
08:45:33  <andythenorth> if we don't know what 'good' is, then it's futile
08:45:41  <andythenorth> this gets very Zen and The Art quickly
08:46:05  <andythenorth>
08:46:06  <FLHerne> There's a difference between "good" and "perfect"?
08:46:16  <andythenorth> it's a good book, hard to keep going in a lot of it though
08:46:53  <FLHerne> Acknowledging that it isn't perfect, and probably never will be, doesn't stop it being good
08:47:59  <andythenorth> making anything good means saying no to 99 out of 100 thiings
08:48:11  <andythenorth> hmm, maybe 66 out of 100 actually
08:48:33  * andythenorth maths
08:48:34  <FLHerne> I have no objection to you closing silly feature requests :p
08:48:42  <andythenorth> usually I do
08:49:24  <andythenorth> I find these cost bugs very confusing, because they're clearly very serious
08:49:31  <andythenorth> and yet they make no difference to the game
08:49:46  <andythenorth> and they're not on the level of syntax or whitespace arguments
08:49:56  <andythenorth> they're clearly something that doesn't conform to the spec
08:50:01  <andythenorth> but where is the spec? :(
08:52:29  <andythenorth> anyway, FIRS :)
08:57:10  <andythenorth>
08:57:54  <andythenorth> I need to stop copy-pasting sprites around, it makes industries look same :)
08:58:15  <andythenorth> I am drawing new features, but there's only so many ways to draw a chimney
08:58:31  <andythenorth> or a storage tank, or a small brick building :D
09:01:41  <andythenorth> eh
09:01:46  <andythenorth> this port does long wrong, yes?
09:01:51  <andythenorth> long / look /s
09:02:16  <FLHerne> On the 'trivial feature request' front, can the dock be full-width? :p
09:02:34  <FLHerne> Now we have multi-docks-per-station, it's nice to have long quays
09:02:50  <FLHerne> But then it looks silly like in that first screenshot
09:03:18  <FLHerne> Those are one industry?
09:03:23  <FLHerne> Then yes, the gap looks odd
09:03:43  <andythenorth> I thought so
09:03:59  <andythenorth> it makes a nice final station, but too weird in the first screenshot
09:04:16  <FLHerne> I guess the idea is to allow a dock in the middle?
09:04:29  <FLHerne> But with large ships you'd get nasty clipping
09:04:32  <andythenorth> or the station
09:04:41  <andythenorth> per the 3rd screenshot
09:05:00  <FLHerne> Demolishable industry tiles? :D
09:05:29  <FLHerne> That would probably be a trivial flag to add, if there are the bits for it...
09:05:48  <andythenorth> oh
09:05:51  <FLHerne> But 90% of people wouldn't discover it
09:05:52  <andythenorth> that is a very interesting idea
09:06:08  <FLHerne> Actually, *optional* industry tiles?
09:06:19  <andythenorth> you're right about the UI problems, but still
09:06:19  <FLHerne> Where if the tile check fails, just that tile isn't built
09:06:26  <andythenorth> also interesting
09:06:39  <andythenorth> nielsm has an unfinished patch for sub-layouts
09:06:51  <andythenorth> tiles you can build routes over :P
09:07:02  <andythenorth> as an idea?
09:07:21  <andythenorth> nah, you'd want to terraform as well
09:08:23  <FLHerne> Hm, other problem with demolishable industry tiles would be magic-bulldozer
09:08:37  <FLHerne> Click the wrong square and your destination goes poof
09:10:21  <andythenorth> I did that in my current game :P
09:10:41  <andythenorth> I demolish a lot of industries, I can't get FIRS to build them in useful places :)
09:23:54  <milek7> from curiosity, I wanted to check number of open bugs on mozilla bugtracker
09:24:20  <milek7> it dumped 10000 and 'This list is too long for Bugzilla'..
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09:31:28  <andythenorth> for mozila?
09:31:39  <andythenorth> 9999 saying 'it eats all the RAM on my machine'
09:31:56  <andythenorth> and 1 saying 'pls stop changing dev tools so often'
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09:34:59  <andythenorth> :D
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09:46:37  <milek7> same thing with KDE, GNOME, LLVM, gcc: dumps 10000 and bails out 'list is too long'
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10:16:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] travismorin11 opened issue #8171: Cricket wirrless uograde codes
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10:18:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] travismorin11 closed issue #8171: Cricket wirrless uograde codes
10:19:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] travismorin11 reopened issue #8171: Cricket wireless upgrade codes
10:21:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8171: Cricket wireless upgrade codes
10:22:04  <LordAro> sure.
10:22:18  <FLHerne> ok
10:29:16  <andythenorth> seems legit
10:30:07  <FLHerne> After they fixed the typo, yeah
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11:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> seems like a missed opportunity to let andy have the satisfaction of closing an issue :p
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11:15:36  <andythenorth> I'll be ok
11:15:42  <andythenorth> I have my own to-do list for FIRS :P
11:15:51  <andythenorth> things getting done
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13:44:34  <andythenorth> improved
13:44:49  <andythenorth> I'm having to use colour a lot to differentiate all these steel industries
13:44:56  <andythenorth> big sheds are all a bit identical :P
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14:08:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mintyface opened issue #8172: No trains past diesel models?
14:12:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8172: No trains past diesel models?
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14:16:36  <andythenorth> now I need to draw a factory for vehicle parts
14:16:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #8172: No trains past diesel models?
14:16:49  <andythenorth> homage to original factory sprites? o_O
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16:01:42  <supermop_Home> andythenorth make the long one go the other way?
16:05:57  <supermop_Home> always kinda bugged me that the coke oven only goes /
16:07:54  <supermop_Home> but its probably a pain to draw \
16:14:31  <andythenorth> long one goes both ways
16:15:49  <andythenorth>
16:15:59  <andythenorth> was easy to do with these sprites
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16:29:36  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> How do I counter rival companies buying exclusive rights?
16:29:52  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Do I just have to buy them first or something?
16:35:21  <andythenorth> playing multiplayer or AI?
16:36:04  <FLHerne> There's a setting that simply disallows that
16:36:11  <FLHerne> Otherwise, yes, buy them first
16:43:09  <andythenorth> I should draw this as component factory? :)
16:48:37  <FLHerne> Yes
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16:58:55  <andythenorth> hmm
16:59:00  <andythenorth> things that would improve FIRS
16:59:07  <andythenorth> * custom fence sprites
16:59:17  <andythenorth> * a ground tile in-between mud and concrete
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17:16:42  <jottyfan> so now that I have created some bugfixes to the gamescript BeeRewards, I was not able to update the library in bananas tonight, because I have never done this before (and am not known as one of the gamescript providers). I've written an email about this, but I wonder if this is the correct way to do so?
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17:22:28  <jottyfan> btw., one can find the release also here:
17:25:24  <Yexo> lists you as author, so you should be able to upload an update for it
17:25:30  <Yexo> Do you see it listed under
17:26:13  <Yexo> Did you request your account to be migrated to the new Bananas? Read/follow if not
17:28:22  <jottyfan> I could not request my account to be migrated because I did never have one...
17:28:33  <nielsm>   "how do I type Squirrel language without autocomplete and libraries?"  -- has the world really come to this? :(
17:29:53  <andythenorth> nielsm it always was this :)
17:30:00  <andythenorth> we just don't always notice
17:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause> A: use stackoverflow :p
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17:30:57  <jottyfan> And on it is not listed of course, because I did not upload it once. The question is, how do I get the privileges to add updates then?
17:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> then you have to ask the person who uploaded it to add you as team member, if he trusts that you are who you claim you are
17:35:15  <jottyfan> then this must have been andythenorth or albert - but I still do not remember...
17:35:39  <andythenorth> no it was whoever created Bee Rewards
17:35:46  <glx> you just need to get your github account inked to username
17:35:58  <andythenorth>
17:36:02  <jottyfan> then it must have been albert
17:36:04  <andythenorth> that's incorrect ^^
17:36:09  <andythenorth> it's just a mistake in the migration
17:36:16  <jottyfan> because I did never have a bananas account...
17:37:57  <andythenorth> oh maybe the fork was by Alberth
17:38:36  <jottyfan> I did only add some code to mercurial, but providing it to bananas was done by him then
17:39:09  * andythenorth never used it, must have been alberth
17:39:52  <jottyfan> ok, thank you very much
17:39:59  <jottyfan> need to get in contact with him then
17:41:36  <andythenorth> try forums, but he's mostly left the community
17:41:47  <andythenorth> I can't assign owners in bananas afaik
17:41:58  <jottyfan> yeah, I see
17:42:04  <jottyfan> I'll try
17:42:22  <Yexo> jottyfan: I'd try to follow anyway
17:42:29  <glx> really you just need to get your github account linked to the author name
17:42:31  <Yexo> You'll need a github account anyway
17:42:43  <Yexo> Since you're already listed as author, that can be migrated directly
17:42:56  <Yexo> Whether or not you had an active openttd account before is irrelevant
17:42:59  <glx> even if you never had a bananas accout before
17:43:37  <Yexo> <andythenorth> I can't assign owners in bananas afaik <- correct, but neither can Alberth
17:43:54  <Yexo> andythenorth: and you can upload a new version right now
17:44:01  <andythenorth> right
17:45:33  <andythenorth> oh :D
17:45:41  <andythenorth> I need to add some ground tiles to CHIPS
17:45:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:50  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:45:56  <andythenorth> Yexo I think your last message before your away time was about CHIPS :)
17:46:22  <glx> andythenorth: adding stations to nml will not be easy
17:46:40  <Yexo> andythenorth: Quite possible :)
17:46:49  <andythenorth> glx proposing doing it? :)
17:46:58  <Yexo> What's the big problem? Something with layouts in action0 vs action2 or so?
17:47:05  <glx> newstation specs are silly
17:47:22  <jottyfan> well, I did try to upload new content yesterday, but bananas did not allow me to add that because of the project name
17:47:25  <glx> yeah layouts on A0 while all others use A2
17:47:43  <jottyfan> I could rename the project and upload it, yes, but I think it's better to have a new version for such minor changes...
17:48:03  <glx> but newstation is probably one of the older additions I guess
17:48:23  <jottyfan> but how could I link my github account to my name? My github name still is the same as the author's name of the project
17:48:27  <Yexo> jottyfan: follow, get your github account linked, then you can upload a new version (and manage the item in general, so update description etc)
17:49:08  <Yexo> Sorry, I keep linking that, but has the instructions
17:51:32  <jottyfan> yes, this is option that I've chosen tonight - but without migration, it seems to be more complicated...
17:52:23  <jottyfan> maybe I need more patience... :)
17:52:47  <glx> yes, just need to wait a little, it will be handled
17:53:13  <jottyfan> great
17:53:18  <jottyfan> so thank you all very much
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17:53:49  <glx> it's all "manual" work
18:35:51  <andythenorth> hmm CHIPS is broken
18:35:56  <andythenorth> well that's a thing to do :)
18:36:10  <andythenorth> the Makefile expects mercurial
18:36:51  <andythenorth> oh it's a big modular coop makefile :)
18:36:53  <andythenorth> hmm
18:37:08  <andythenorth>
18:49:23  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Uh, I'm getting this odd error...
18:49:32  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I can't send a road vehicle to a station
18:49:36  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Despite it looking as though I can.
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18:49:57  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I'll post a screenshot on Imgur. One second.
18:49:59  <andythenorth> is it a passenger vehicle and a freight station?
18:50:12  <Wrench_In_The_Plan>
18:50:21  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> It's a freight vehicle and a freight station.
18:51:01  <LordAro> what is the road vehicle?
18:51:25  <LordAro> you've managed to perfectly obscure it in your screenshot :p
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18:53:05  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Gaah
18:53:29  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> It's from the eGRVTS thingie
18:53:36  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> The Mettler Ultra with Flatbed Trailer
18:53:56  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Maximum 20 kN of Tractive Effort
18:54:42  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> A Pitman's Articulated Flatbed Truck suffers the same issue
18:54:46  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> It can't do anything either.
18:55:26  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Looks like the vanilla livestock vans work just fine.
18:57:40  <Eddi|zuHause> articulated vehicles cannot go in dead-end stations, only drive-through stations
18:59:03  <LordAro> ah yes
18:59:13  <LordAro> that error message isn't great
19:05:05  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I see...
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19:08:37  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Thanks
19:08:46  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> So, how do I see roads that are obscured by buildings?
19:09:01  <glx> transparent building
19:09:31  <glx> it's in the cogs dropdown
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19:11:29  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Thanks
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19:12:32  <FLHerne> Or press ctrl-X, and there's a transparency toolbar
19:12:35  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Any tips  for a complete newcomer to TTD, by the way?
19:13:49  <nielsm> expand, expand, expand :)
19:14:34  <nielsm> and be optimistic about your routes, plan for growth
19:17:16  <nielsm> also, learn the hotkeys for switching building tools, it will help you build much faster
19:17:34  <LordAro> nielsm: i've never bothered learning the hotkeys
19:17:57  <debdog> the most important key is "x"
19:17:58  <andythenorth> I just hit 'A' a lot, with combo keys
19:18:01  <andythenorth> until I get what I want
19:18:14  <LordAro> oh, i use 'delete'
19:18:16  <LordAro> that's quite useful
19:18:26  <LordAro> and 'tab'
19:18:28  <andythenorth> there's one hotkey that's really bad if you have the wrong window focussed, clears orders unintentionally
19:18:52  <andythenorth> I have NFI how, but highlighting the foreground window would be a usability benefit )
19:18:53  <andythenorth> :)
19:18:57  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> What's delete do?
19:19:06  <FLHerne> Close all non-pinned windows
19:19:22  <Speeder_> squirrel is proving to be quite annoying
19:19:24  <Speeder_> I am missing Lua
19:20:43  <FLHerne> Wrench_In_The_Plan: I made a while ago, might be useful
19:21:07  <FLHerne> (it's a demo of different common/fundamental ways to set up rail signals)
19:21:44  <glx> basic rule: always use PBS, and put signal only where it's safe to wait
19:23:00  <nielsm> and "safe to wait" means, if a train stopped at the signal, would it be blocking any other trains trying to go in a different direction
19:23:01  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> TRAINS!
19:23:07  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Sorry, uh
19:23:10  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Got upset a little bit.
19:23:19  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Remembered how competing trains would crash into my trucks
19:23:27  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Which doesn't work out very well for me.
19:23:34  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> How do I deal with them?
19:23:59  * andythenorth wonders how much makefile CHIPS really needs 
19:24:10  <andythenorth> it's just a grfcodec compile, nothing fancy
19:24:14  <andythenorth> there's not even docs etc
19:24:39  <andythenorth> or we could use it as the test case for nml stations? o_O
19:25:12  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Also, uh... How can I remove a bridge over a river without also removing the river?
19:25:12  <FLHerne> Wrench_In_The_Plan: Bridges
19:25:21  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> 'Cause filling in a body of water is expensive.
19:25:24  <FLHerne> Wrench_In_The_Plan: Demolish the ramp tiles
19:25:32  <FLHerne> (one of)
19:25:42  <glx> well my idea was to use CHIPS as reference to check output and syntax :)
19:25:46  <FLHerne> Well, removing the river wouldn't remove the bridge anyway
19:26:07  <FLHerne> To do anything to a bridge, do it to either of the end ramps, and it'll affect the whole thing
19:26:29  <glx> but stupid spec makes it so uneasy
19:26:32  <andythenorth> oof
19:26:33  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I see.
19:26:46  <andythenorth> the question is whether to do a new spec
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19:26:49  <andythenorth> specs are hard
19:26:57  <FLHerne> Bit late now
19:27:10  <FLHerne> Maybe look at however m4nfo does it?
19:27:25  <glx> I'm sure there should be a way to factorise layout code
19:27:33  <FLHerne> ISTR that has a pretty nice grf-coder-facing interface for stations
19:27:37  <glx> but for now it's hardcoded for Action2
19:27:46  <andythenorth> it has been suggested multiple times that stations are just objects with track bits
19:27:53  <andythenorth> I don't know if that holds up though
19:29:47  <glx> yeah except objects, airport tiles, industry tiles and houses use action2 for the layout, while stations put it in action0
19:30:55  <glx> at least station prop 1A uses the same format as advanced layout
19:32:05  <andythenorth> the idea would be to make a new API for stations, standardising it on what the others do
19:32:14  <andythenorth> I doubt it's that simple :)
19:32:18  <Eddi|zuHause> can we supercede station specs with a more object-like one?
19:32:21  <glx> prop 1A is already "new"
19:34:21  <andythenorth> I have no useful opinion, I've never coded a station grf
19:34:28  <andythenorth> I just add graphics to the code in CHIPS
19:34:29  <andythenorth> :)
19:34:30  <glx> not sure Eddi|zuHause, stations already have an action2 for something else
19:35:13  <andythenorth> there'd have to be a new flag or something?
19:35:16  <andythenorth> then branch conditionally?
19:35:50  <glx> and I think nml could support tile layout in a more generic way
19:36:42  <andythenorth> implementing current spec in nml gives a reference against existing grfs
19:36:47  <andythenorth> a new spec does not :)
19:36:51  <andythenorth> specs are hard :P
19:37:01  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I think I may be having too many road vehicles going to a small number of stations
19:37:34  <glx> current spec is not that bad, it's just needs work
19:38:07  <FLHerne> My housemate has decided that lockdown is the golden opportunity to take up violining :-/
19:44:00  <andythenorth> rad
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19:46:22  <andythenorth> are they good yet?
19:51:17  <nielsm> remember, you can see a large metal tube explode two people far into the air today:
19:51:32  <nielsm> when are we adding rockets to openttd?
19:52:13  <gardas714> thanks for the link!
19:52:20  <gardas714> hopefully no explosions
19:53:40  <nielsm> it's not going anywhere if they don't get an explosion
19:53:52  <nielsm> it just needs to be in the right place
19:55:25  <glx> interior design looks so modern compared to soyouz or shuttle
19:55:55  <gardas714> fair enough :P
20:13:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8173: Fix: Compilation warnings in story_gui and script_story_page
20:20:55  <milek7> maybe it's too modern.. I'm not convinced to touchscreens everywhere
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20:22:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #8173: Fix: Compilation warnings in story_gui and script_story_page
20:22:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #8173: Fix: Compilation warnings in story_gui and script_story_page
20:45:04  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Do you remember what was about? The links are broken
20:58:17  <gardas714> following a post on the forum, whoever would like to talk about a possible economic model for openttd, please join #openttd-econ
20:58:28  <gardas714> not an official effort by any means, by the way
20:58:30  <gardas714> fyi
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21:43:32  <supermop_Home> glx the shuttle is very old compared to now i guess?
21:43:56  <supermop_Home> i just joined this - it just seems to be people prodding a door?
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21:46:27  <supermop_Home> i assume the launch was scrubbed and thatpeople prodding the door is not typical
21:48:51  <andythenorth> scrubbed due to bad weather?
21:49:17  <glx> yeah weather issue
21:49:17  <supermop_Home> weather's great in new York, should have built the pad here
21:49:42  <andythenorth> also bed
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22:03:25  <supermop_Home> the all black coveralls don't necessarily do much to dispel the notion that musk is some kind of supervillain
22:05:57  <Speeder_> towns can absorb all "goods" you give to them?
22:05:59  <Speeder_> or there are limits?
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22:33:42  <Speeder_> just found out I have to do some adjustement to my FIRS version O.o
22:33:49  <Speeder_> I will have to remove coal, entirely
22:34:01  <Speeder_> or almost entirely
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22:51:57  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Huh. That mention of violining earlier reminds me, I might wanna pick my own back up...
22:53:11  <FLHerne> Speeder_: Why?
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23:15:06  <Speeder_> FLHerne, Brazillian economy doesn't use rock coal
23:15:19  <Speeder_> although we do have it, it is extremely poor quality
23:15:25  <Speeder_> so there are only a few coal mines
23:15:39  <Speeder_> Brazillian steel is made with imported coal
23:15:56  <Speeder_> and thermal powerplants use diesel and other petroleum fuels
23:33:52  <Speeder_> what the function "rawin" does on GS?
23:36:59  <FLHerne> Speeder_: ?
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