Log for #openttd on 3rd June 2020:
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00:05:22  <supermop_Home> well the curfew is 8 tonight instead of 11
00:08:40  <milek7> curfew?
00:35:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on issue #7006: Hardware mouse cursor
00:38:27  <supermop_Home> yep
00:39:10  <supermop_Home> more helicopters today too
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00:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if i wanted to write a postapocalpytic movie, i would start with a desease going around, violence breaking out, and a police state forming with massive travel restrictions and being on the street at night is illegal
00:58:08  <Eddi|zuHause> with a president so narcissistic that the world could be burning around him, and he doesn't care, as long as all the cameras are directed to him.
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02:11:44  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause we already had the police state here for some time - just sometimes its easier to pretend it's not there
02:13:17  <supermop_Home> but municipal governments control over their police forces has been steadily eroding for years, and those police departments increasingly drive policy themselves
02:18:43  <supermop_Home> now the actual military on the streets is a bit rarer
02:18:59  <supermop_Home> and we don't quite have that in new York yet
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02:50:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen this news bit where it was talked about how most sherrif elections run unopposed, even if the sherrif in question has highly questionable ethics
02:53:21  <Eddi|zuHause> (as far as i have understood, in america, elected sherrifs are a mostly a thing in rural areas, whereas appointed police forces are a thing in cities)
02:54:03  <Eddi|zuHause> (this is vastly different from germany, where police is a state matter)
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03:23:04  <supermop_Home> police is generally a city thing here, sheriffs exist at the county level
03:24:07  <supermop_Home> and are only typically relevant in areas where a county does not contain a large metropolitan area with it's own police force
03:25:48  <supermop_Home> New York County (island of Manhattan) has a sheriff - but the office is mainly procedural
03:29:25  <supermop_Home> We also have state police - but they are not typically involved with day to day law enforcement beyond highway patrol
03:30:39  <supermop_Home> one of our biggest problems here Eddi|zuHause is that in most highly urban cities, the police officers are often not residents of the city or even the county in which they serve
03:32:00  <supermop_Home> In New York many do live in the city, but in areas of Queens or staten Island that resemble a separate town
03:32:56  <Eddi|zuHause> we have a thing here where for big events like, say, a football match, the police forces involved are deliberately shipped in from out-of-state
03:39:42  <supermop_Home> excessive force in response to protest are one problem, but the institutionalized disproportionate use of force in regular day-to-day policing that the protest are in response to, can't be readily fixed by non-local officers
04:13:19  <supermop_Home> i guess i'll try to go to bed
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05:58:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] auge8472 approved pull request #161: Fix: paddings in website footer
05:58:28  <andythenorth> ha ha this nearly works
05:58:40  <andythenorth> there's one odd bug
05:58:49  <andythenorth> but otherwise it replicates most of var 41
06:01:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] auge8472 commented on pull request #161: Fix: paddings in website footer
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06:14:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #154: Add boolean constants
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06:39:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7006: Hardware mouse cursor
06:46:24  <andythenorth> my silly var 41 thing now works
06:46:33  <andythenorth> just need to extend it to multiple IDs
06:46:40  <andythenorth> maybe each vehicle can have a procedure for that
06:47:00  * andythenorth wonders what the limit on procedures is :P
07:10:25  <andythenorth> oof I might have an actual case for prop 25
07:12:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro merged pull request #161: Fix: paddings in website footer
07:14:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on pull request #161: Fix: paddings in website footer
07:17:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7006: Hardware mouse cursor
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08:20:10  <Samu> just updated
08:20:28  <Samu> also this
08:20:40  <Samu> Yexo-,
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09:10:18  <andythenorth> this is so good :D
09:10:50  <andythenorth> all of that, the net result is you can build powered or unpowered railcars
09:11:01  <andythenorth> and have the sprites combine to make nice looking railcar trains
09:11:22  <andythenorth> gameplay effect: unpowered railcars are 50% cheaper
09:11:40  <andythenorth> definitely massively over-engineered; so fun :)
09:12:02  <andythenorth> soooo pointless
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09:28:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on issue #7006: Hardware mouse cursor
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10:03:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on issue #7006: Hardware mouse cursor
10:04:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #7006: Hardware mouse cursor
10:08:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on issue #7006: Hardware mouse cursor
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10:22:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7006: Hardware mouse cursor
10:28:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on issue #7006: Hardware mouse cursor
10:36:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on issue #7006: Hardware mouse cursor
11:05:23  <andythenorth> supermop_Home yo :)
11:06:35  <andythenorth> railcar madness continues
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12:51:14  <supermop_Home> hi andythenorth
12:51:34  <supermop_Home> have to restart my computer
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12:54:32  <supermop_Home> ok
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12:59:54  <andythenorth> supermop_Home railcar trailers, which work seamlessly with the railcars sprite magic :P
13:00:06  <andythenorth> totally pointless but eh
13:03:31  <supermop_Home> just what I wished for
13:11:58  <andythenorth> grf any use to you?
13:12:03  <supermop_Home> sure
13:12:16  <supermop_Home> i mean it won't fix my city
13:15:21  <andythenorth> supermop_Home pm sent
13:15:27  <supermop_Home> yay
13:19:18  <andythenorth> I don't know if it's the most stupid feature in Horse
13:19:42  <supermop_Home> i mean it's not a snowplow
13:19:45  <andythenorth> using the electric railcars as driving cabs is probably worse
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13:45:41  <supermop_Home> i use the 4rep whatever trick sometimes
13:46:02  <supermop_Home> emus plus loco for OP train
13:46:06  <andythenorth> yup
13:46:16  <andythenorth> these new trailers are capped at the lower speed
13:46:20  <andythenorth> I could add express trailers also
13:46:23  <supermop_Home> in this game for a large town on top of a mountain
13:49:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Diesel railcars as driving cabs is a thing
13:50:56  <andythenorth> I can't remember why I didn't enable them for that in Horse, I think it's just a whim
13:54:05  <FLHerne> Hm, now I can't find the page
13:54:36  <FLHerne> When Amtrak were diverted into Grand Central a few years ago, they couldn't have the driver in the locomotive
13:54:48  <FLHerne> Because no end doors, and narrow tunnels
13:55:24  <FLHerne> So they attached a DMU car to the front of the locomotive before entering the tunnel, and drove from that
13:56:38  <FLHerne> (because unlike here, US railroad equipment is actually intercompatible :-/)
13:57:29  <FLHerne> EMU<->loco inter-working was a thing here too, of course
13:57:46  <FLHerne> 73/1s could work in multiple with most 3rd-rail EMUs
14:03:50  <Eddi|zuHause> <FLHerne> (because unlike here, US railroad equipment is actually intercompatible :-/) <-- maybe that's a side effect of being 30 years behind in technology? :p
14:05:39  <andythenorth> that and AAR interchange standards
14:06:02  <andythenorth> and not being state nationalised systems
14:06:46  <andythenorth> there is a really nice article from a senior engineer at GMD / EMD when diesels were being prototyped and scaled up
14:07:11  <andythenorth> he talks about offering a standard product, and then every railroad insisting on customisations which required expensive redesign
14:07:49  <andythenorth> it's extremely similar to software 'products' that become distorted into consulting-ware
14:10:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i've recently seen a thing about the northeast corridor, and a train running from washington to boston, that switched engines in new york for the sole reason of the lines being operated by different companies and everything being cross-compatible
14:22:25  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause must have been awhile ago
14:22:33  <supermop_Home> in the Penn RR era?
14:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i think in the 1950s?
14:23:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it was about this accident where the train overshot the platform in washington
14:23:55  <supermop_Home> also back then idk if the NEC was electrified all the way to boston
14:24:33  <supermop_Home> would have been a penn GG1 from Union Station to Penn Station
14:25:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i think they mentioned the full electrification wasn't completed until the 1990s or something?
14:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and they mentioned they did away with the unnecessary engine switching after nationalising, and ran GG1s all the way through
14:26:35  <Eddi|zuHause> which would have been the 70s?
14:26:47  <supermop_Home> yeah
14:27:02  <supermop_Home> Amtrak kept the GG1s in the 70s
14:27:44  <supermop_Home> FLHerne Grand central doesn't have caternary either
14:28:04  <supermop_Home> has bottom-contact 3rd rail
14:28:28  <supermop_Home> metro north trains switch to overhead up in Westchester county
14:34:50  <andythenorth>
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14:45:12  <andythenorth> this is a really good couple of pages on real-world engineering
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14:47:58  <andythenorth> 'suppose da vinci was wrong?'
14:51:31  <Eddi|zuHause> given that scientific information has a half-life, you can assume that by what we know now, da vinci was wrong on most things
14:52:31  <andythenorth> yes
14:55:43  <Eddi|zuHause> this was one of the most important innovations of the renaissance era, starting to question the "knowledge" passed down by figures of authority (e.g. Aristoteles, who we know now was wrong on pretty much everything he ever said)
14:56:00  <supermop_Home> nah that big helix helicopter thing is still gonna fly some day
15:05:33  <andythenorth> I did a philosophy module in university, with a lecturer who was interested in demonstrating that some Aristotelian physics was actually valid
15:05:40  <andythenorth> can't remember more than that :P
15:05:53  <andythenorth> all I know these days are ISO 27002 controls, and facts about trains
15:08:57  <LordAro> andythenorth: which is your favourite?
15:09:05  <andythenorth> hmm
15:09:22  <andythenorth> tough choice
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15:57:46  <arikover> andythenorth: "I did a philosophy module in university, with a lecturer who was interested in demonstrating that some Aristotelian physics was actually valid": Here, it is said that Aristotle approximations were pretty good for his time
16:00:18  <andythenorth> thanks :)
16:00:32  <andythenorth> I think it was the module on Kuhn and Scientific Revolutions
16:01:17  <andythenorth>
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16:19:33  <FLHerne> Oh, that nonsense :p
16:22:14  <FLHerne> Empirical reality isn't a social construct
16:24:21  <FLHerne> To be fair, I think relativists have gone a lot further than Kuhn himself did
16:24:46  <supermop_Home> getting people to actually accept empirical reality does seem to be a bit of a social contruct though
16:26:17  <FLHerne> Unfortunately so
16:26:21  <andythenorth> but we have alternative facts
16:29:45  <supermop_Home> hopefully can go out for a bit before thunderstorms start
16:36:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr opened pull request #8182: Clang LTO
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16:51:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr updated pull request #8182: Clang LTO
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17:03:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr updated pull request #8182: Clang LTO
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17:08:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr updated pull request #8182: Clang LTO
17:10:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr updated pull request #8182: Clang LTO
17:17:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8182: Clang LTO
17:19:16  <nielsm> so when are we merging cmake?
17:19:23  <LordAro> now?
17:26:03  <andythenorth> so this is the final re-implementation of var 41 using var 61
17:26:29  <andythenorth> it has a few interesting quirks
17:27:26  <andythenorth> it reads var 61 for each vehicle 16 times, for every vehicle in the consist, each time one of the procedures is called
17:29:31  <andythenorth> in total the procedures are called minimum 6 times in the graphics per vehicle that uses this feature, maximum 7
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17:31:20  <andythenorth> so every action 3 paint, a single vehicle will read var 61 976 times, but 915 of those will exceed the consist length and return 0
17:31:47  <andythenorth> a 2 vehicle consist will read var 61 3904 times
17:32:26  <andythenorth> a 4 vehicle consist will read var 61 15616 times
17:33:21  <andythenorth> but 12688 of those will exceed the consist length and return 0
17:33:26  <andythenorth> this is probably fine?
17:33:59  <andythenorth> are procedure results cached?
17:34:48  <glx> probably not
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17:35:12  <andythenorth> hmm my maths is wrong anyway, I don't limit at 16
17:35:18  <andythenorth> it's 127 forwards, 127 backwards
17:35:24  * andythenorth recalculates
17:37:15  <andythenorth> yeah I think it's reading var 61 28448 per single vehicle
17:38:31  <andythenorth> so a 4 vehicle consist reads var 61 455,168 times
17:38:38  <andythenorth> fortunately openttd is really efficient :)
17:41:12  <andythenorth> I could optimise it in several ways
17:43:14  <andythenorth> I could store the results of some procedures earlier in the chain
17:43:18  <andythenorth> so they're only called once
17:44:48  <andythenorth> that would reduce var 61 reads to 4,064
17:45:17  <andythenorth> and I could stop trying to read it when I've exceeded the consist length
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17:46:06  <andythenorth> and I could figure out why nml why STORE_TEMP won't accept the result of a var 61 expression
17:47:00  <andythenorth> fixing all of that would cut the var 61 reads down to 2 for a single vehicle
17:47:15  <andythenorth> 28448 -> 2, worthwhile reduction?
17:53:45  <FLHerne> The fact that you need to ask is worrisome :p
17:53:57  <andythenorth> might be premature optimisation
17:54:08  <andythenorth> I've seen both sides of the argument in this channel
17:54:24  <andythenorth> - these things are fast, keep the newgrf code simpler
17:54:35  <andythenorth> - these things are slow, optimise the newgrf for openttd perf
17:54:54  <andythenorth> and it's never conclusive, because we don't really know what affects perf :)
17:56:01  <andythenorth> unrelated, I can definitely crash nml with 'return [procedure_a() + procedure_b()]'
17:56:08  <andythenorth> but 'return LOAD_TEMP(2)' is fine
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18:03:58  <FLHerne> What's with the square brackets?
18:08:04  <andythenorth> is that not required to make an expression?
18:08:10  * andythenorth can't really nml
18:08:26  <andythenorth> I just add and remove chars until it works
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18:20:27  <FLHerne> No, I'm surprised it even parses
18:23:09  <andythenorth> I should read the docs about what's valid for a return and what isn't
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18:24:34  <supermop_Home_> route chartering GS?
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18:24:53  <andythenorth> hmm expression is valid in a return
18:25:32  <andythenorth> return 1 + switch_alt_var_41_position_in_vehid_chain_multiple_ids() + switch_alt_var_41_position_in_vehid_chain_from_end_multiple_ids();
18:25:58  <andythenorth>
18:26:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think [] is a list of expressions?
18:26:22  <andythenorth> yes
18:26:34  <andythenorth> that's spurious, it fails with or without
18:26:40  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes, but the [] mean you're returning an array (with 1 element), which doesn't seem sane
18:26:52  <andythenorth> I tried it with and without
18:27:05  <FLHerne> Ok
18:27:11  <andythenorth> adding [] is my usual solution to "this expression won't render", instead of reading the docs :P
18:27:25  <FLHerne> Is this with glx's new switch parameters, or current nml?
18:27:40  <andythenorth> nmlc --version 2020-04-20-g9fdd4bbc
18:28:06  <andythenorth> I didn't try parameters for the procedures yet
18:28:34  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: [] might be weirdly overloaded, so the parser can't throw it out at that point?
18:30:08  <nielsm> NML syntax is peculiar and loves lots of []
18:30:30  <andythenorth> list-ish :P
18:31:26  <nielsm> idea for a better NML: throw out the custom language and switch to lua, the core mechanism is that there are a bunch of expected declarations at global level
18:31:46  <nielsm> and the runtime provides a bunch of functions and stuff to help produce the correct structure
18:33:10  <FLHerne> nielsm: That's silly
18:33:25  <FLHerne> If you're doing that, we should just make the Python API decent
18:33:33  <FLHerne> Add some builder functions
18:34:03  <nielsm> I suppose you could do that too...
18:34:15  <FLHerne> (unless I'm missing some fundamental thing about the nature of lua)
18:34:36  <andythenorth> nielsm so do you want to profile my stupid var 61 use? :)
18:35:10  <FLHerne> I already told Andy he should just be calling into nml from his Python script instead of all this templating
18:35:21  <andythenorth> but I like nml so much :)
18:36:15  <andythenorth> FLHerne radical idea, change the templating to output python, then exec() it
18:36:41  <andythenorth> 'probably fine'
18:38:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7886: Group management enhancements
18:39:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
18:40:12  <FLHerne> andythenorth: stop
18:40:40  <FLHerne> I hereby revoke your Python privileges for the next year
18:40:44  <andythenorth> you never saw the nfo files with variadic macros? o_O
18:40:48  <andythenorth> wasn't even my idea
18:41:27  <andythenorth> then to migrate FIRS to python, I python templated the variadic macros
18:41:30  <andythenorth> that was a fun time
18:42:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
18:42:09  <andythenorth> :o
18:42:10  <FLHerne>
18:42:47  <andythenorth> found this one today
18:45:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7886: Group management enhancements
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18:46:36  <FLHerne> seems often applicable
18:47:25  <FLHerne> Hm, that suggests that spending ages making nmlc marginally faster is probably worthwhile
18:47:33  <FLHerne> It does get run a lot
18:47:34  <andythenorth> that's the more commonly shared version
18:47:57  <andythenorth> it's a nice xkcd, but it doesn't account for broken context
18:48:06  <andythenorth> 10s is short enough to not get distracted
18:48:16  <andythenorth> 5 mins is long enough to get coffee, stretch, have new thoughts
18:48:37  <andythenorth> waiting 60s is just right for getting distracted by a YT video and losing all focus
18:49:26  * andythenorth reading this currently
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19:06:55  <glx> nielsm: I think I need to squash some stuff in #7270
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19:08:28  <nielsm> glx yeah the PR needs a load of technical fixed to be mergeable
19:09:04  <Wolf01> I was trying to figure out what I missed to do... like starting mIRC
19:09:06  <glx> andythenorth: what's the stack for ?
19:10:05  <andythenorth> glx you mean the nml that triggers it, or you want a python traceback?
19:10:21  <glx> python traceback to know where it fails
19:10:46  <andythenorth> can I get that without pdb? :P
19:11:03  <glx> just use -s
19:11:36  <andythenorth> cool :)
19:12:01  <glx> nmlc has nice options :)
19:13:32  <andythenorth>
19:14:41  <andythenorth> nml is
19:14:54  <glx> anyway procedure calls in ranges are not properly referenced, I noticed that when trying to add support for parameters in the ranges
19:15:58  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i tried to start this thimbleweed park mini adventure, and it tells me it's missing directx 12 features?!?
19:16:16  <glx> dolores thing ?
19:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> in proton/wine
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19:22:47  <glx> andythenorth: maybe (not sure it's related though)
19:27:09  <Eddi|zuHause> seems nobody else managed to get around that error message so far...
19:29:40  <andythenorth> hmm how do I GitHub? :P Usually I test patches by fetching the PR, or adding someone's remote branch
19:30:42  <glx> remote branch should work :)
19:30:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you just add the other person's github as remote, and pull
19:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so instead of pulling origin/master you pull glx/whatever
19:32:07  <andythenorth> of course :) thanks :)
19:33:45  <andythenorth> but is this commit not in OpenTTD nml repo?
19:33:52  * andythenorth confused
19:35:02  <glx> it's in my repo
19:35:12  <glx> in proc_refs branch
19:35:24  <glx> github interface is sometimes confusing
19:43:21  <andythenorth> different traceback now
19:46:56  <supermop_Home_>
19:47:07  <glx> weird, for some reason the feature seems wrong
19:48:22  <glx> debugging needed I guess
19:49:48  <andythenorth> sorry :)
19:50:47  <glx> is there an iron horse branch for your current work ?
19:52:27  <andythenorth> I can make one that contains this failing code
19:53:57  <glx> well I have an iron horse clone locally anyway :)
19:54:32  <andythenorth> glx
20:02:10  <glx> hehe warnings are important :)
20:02:51  <glx> it's indeed a referencing problem and my fix doesn't solve it
20:04:23  <glx> thanks for the test case :)
20:08:07  <andythenorth> I want to test procedure parameters too
20:08:17  <andythenorth> I have a valid case for them
20:16:40  <glx> ok found the error
20:16:55  <glx> hmm or not
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