Log for #openttd on 6th November 2020:
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12:29:08  <andythenorth> puzzles
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14:22:42  <supermop_Home> yo
14:23:47  <andythenorth> yo
14:25:21  <andythenorth> adding 1 engine to Horse
14:25:28  <andythenorth> 2.9.2 release, or 2.10.0?
14:25:54  <supermop_Home> what engine?
14:26:06  <andythenorth> small shunter
14:26:23  <andythenorth> no gameplay differnce
14:26:28  <andythenorth> just visual variety
14:29:32  <andythenorth> 2.10.0 then
14:31:03  <supermop_Home> Hand car?
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14:32:50  <andythenorth> hadn't considered it so far :D
14:45:06  <frosch123> 2k9
14:45:25  <andythenorth> funny version number :P
14:47:08  <frosch123> did you consider adoping V's version schema
14:47:44  <frosch123> it may completely defeat the point of version numbers, but it requires very little decisions
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14:54:46  <andythenorth> is it just random numbers?
14:55:27  <frosch123>
15:12:51  <andythenorth> oops
15:12:57  <andythenorth> must remember to invalidate cloudfront
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15:27:24  <andythenorth> supermop_Home for the record
15:35:21  <frosch123> 2k6
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16:03:09  <andythenorth> so should I do US Horse?
16:14:29  <FLHerne> Maybe?
16:14:43  * FLHerne was looking forward to the boats, personally
16:15:33  <FLHerne> But I know some people would like it
16:16:01  <FLHerne> NARS is too much at the hyper-detail > gameplay end
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16:30:32  <andythenorth> boats!
16:32:51  <andythenorth> I had a poke at improved pallet carrier sprites ('dry cargo')
16:33:16  <andythenorth> I have been using more colours
16:33:34  <andythenorth> I was trying a strict minimal colour palette, like I use for trains
16:33:47  <andythenorth> but ships are too big for that, they look unfinished
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16:38:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] maksmkv opened issue #78: [ru_RU] Translator access request
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16:48:53  <andythenorth> edibles tankers seem to have green tank tops
16:48:59  <andythenorth> wine / water / etc
16:50:51  <andythenorth> whereas Horse and Hog are white / silver / CC, like original TTD
16:52:59  <andythenorth> not convinced by white hull
16:56:19  <Timberwolf> Problem I found with NARS games is the only locomotives you ever need to buy is however many generations of 4-4-0 American it takes to get to the 80mph one, and then the GG1 when it comes out.
16:57:07  <Timberwolf> Not something you can really solve without having "unrealistic" specs.
16:59:46  <andythenorth> Timberwolf that 'one loco is always boss' thing was what drove Iron Horse v1 to be minimalist
16:59:47  <andythenorth> 20 locos
16:59:52  <Timberwolf> Well, I guess if you had an industry/cargo set that had higher production values, lower cargo payments, and slower decay of payment.
17:00:11  <andythenorth> I think there was always one diesel that was OP, the GP38 or GP40
17:00:20  <andythenorth> everything else was pointless
17:02:29  <andythenorth> hmm, Horse does not feature sausage vans
17:02:30  <andythenorth>
17:02:33  <andythenorth> oversight
17:07:28  <Timberwolf> Perhaps we ask too much from a game where the default graphics set gives optimal consists of double-headed A4s for a coal train.
17:07:36  <Timberwolf> (or of course the ubiquitous coal TGV)
17:20:18  <andythenorth> well
17:20:33  <andythenorth> I can see the lucidity of your argument
17:20:42  <andythenorth> but our train grfs suggest we don't buy it :P
17:23:05  <andythenorth> Timberwolf I think Horse provides optimum train though
17:24:39  <andythenorth>
17:42:53  <Timberwolf> :)
17:43:19  <FLHerne> andythenorth: White hull is more common on chemical tankers, stops the cargo boiling off :p
17:44:09  <andythenorth> yeah
17:44:15  <FLHerne> Timberwolf: Double-headed *tenderless* A4s
17:44:23  <andythenorth> I'm not sure about maintaining consistency for ships with Horse and Hog
17:44:31  <FLHerne> I guess they just shovel coal from the cargo
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17:44:42  <andythenorth> I thought it would be a neat and tidy idea if ships were just like big Horse trains
17:44:45  <FLHerne> Consistency how?
17:44:54  <andythenorth> same classes, same visual appearance rules
17:45:02  <andythenorth> so open wagon -> freighter
17:45:17  <andythenorth> mineral wagon -> bulk barge
17:45:18  <andythenorth> etc
17:45:28  <andythenorth> goods van -> dry cargo ship
17:45:37  <andythenorth> and then same company colours and liveries
17:45:50  <FLHerne> I think that makes sense to some extent
17:45:52  <andythenorth> but it just doesn't 100% work
17:45:57  <andythenorth> it's probably 60:40
17:46:08  <andythenorth> I think it needs to be 'sometimes aligns'
17:46:22  <FLHerne> Also, it would be nice if ships had an integer number of wagon capacities
17:46:28  <andythenorth> yeah I have wondered
17:46:32  <andythenorth> but the generations don't line up
17:46:35  <FLHerne> It's always annoying when you have a transfer and it doesn't quite work
17:46:39  <andythenorth> yes agreed
17:46:49  <andythenorth> but trains progress faster
17:46:55  <andythenorth> [or more frequently]
17:47:12  * andythenorth would settle for a load x% order :P
17:47:13  <FLHerne> That sounds like a 'not enough ships' problem :p
17:47:23  <andythenorth> but apparently load x% is not really possible
17:47:33  <andythenorth> other than in JGR
17:48:04  <andythenorth> I think also Hog and Horse will diverge, when I do Hog 2.0
17:48:16  <andythenorth> because of the HEQS-type stuff I'm adding
17:48:30  <andythenorth> 'off road mining truck' just doesn't have a train equivalent
17:48:56  <andythenorth> well, maybe side dump cars, but they look wildly different :P
17:49:23  <FLHerne> Not convinced that kind of visual consistency makes sense
17:49:41  <FLHerne> Make the same cargo look the same, sure
17:49:46  <andythenorth> I think it's a slavish consistency
17:49:51  <andythenorth> and a hobgoblin
17:50:00  <FLHerne> But making all vehicles that carry the same cargo category look similar is just boring
17:50:04  <andythenorth> yeah
17:50:12  <andythenorth> the inspiration is original base set
17:50:20  <FLHerne> It's one thing I don't love about Road Hog
17:50:23  <andythenorth> where RVs just have rail wagons glued on the back
17:50:41  <FLHerne> Yes
17:50:50  <andythenorth> I am not currently inspired by RVs
17:51:08  <andythenorth> Hog, the main inspiration was "the only non-shit RV grf is eGRVTs"
17:51:13  <andythenorth> and I played eGRVTS to death
17:51:36  <andythenorth> explain your view on Hog more?
17:51:41  <andythenorth> might be useful for designing
17:51:51  <FLHerne> Bob's British Vehicles is mostly nice
17:51:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:51:52  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:52:00  <FLHerne> But it has a couple of awkward gaps, and doesn't do autorefit
17:52:52  <FLHerne> I like Hog for gameplay a lot
17:53:15  <FLHerne> The one thing I miss is early non-articulated vehicles with reasonable capacity
17:53:21  <FLHerne> (because I like dead-end stops)
17:53:26  <andythenorth> what about later game?
17:53:45  <FLHerne> Visually, I tend to end up with loads of vehicles of one generation at a time
17:53:47  <andythenorth> 8x4 rigid trucks could carry quite a bit
17:54:08  <FLHerne> They're obviously all the same one with different bodies, and it looks dull
17:54:37  <FLHerne> BBV has an 8x4 Mammoth Major, it's probably my most-used RV ever
17:55:35  <FLHerne> Currently I tend to use both BBV and Hog together
17:55:45  <FLHerne> So that I can use Hog vehicles to fill in the gaps
17:55:57  <FLHerne> (this was why I wanted a 'no Hog buses' option)
17:56:40  <FLHerne> Well, 'currently' -- I've not actually played OTTD in months now :p
17:59:06  * andythenorth considers randomised appearance
17:59:26  <andythenorth> I have shared order groups in my game with 40-50 identical RVs
17:59:39  <andythenorth> Horse randomises wagon appearance between 2 variants
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18:03:30  <FLHerne> ditto
18:03:33  <FLHerne> That would be nice
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18:07:46  <longtomjr> Polroad is alo a nice rv set
18:09:05  <andythenorth> hmm
18:09:09  <andythenorth> randomised ships? :P
18:09:12  <andythenorth> oof
18:09:21  <andythenorth> also...2CC is a problem with ships
18:09:34  <andythenorth> I pretty much always use white as 2CC, for train reasons
18:09:49  <andythenorth> but that doesn't show up on ships
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18:10:54  <andythenorth> due to ships using a lot of white :P
18:11:00  <longtomjr> White is the most colorblind friendly cc
18:11:46  <andythenorth> oof
18:12:04  <andythenorth> maybe I just use the livery UI
18:12:52  <andythenorth> not sure that all ships need 2CC
18:13:41  <andythenorth> Horse freight wagons are pretty much 1CC
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18:29:39  <andythenorth> err
18:29:44  <andythenorth> the train livery UI window is annoying
18:29:54  <andythenorth> maybe I just force Horse 2CC to white
18:32:15  <andythenorth> oh
18:32:21  <andythenorth> I could just implement company colours in the grf
18:32:24  <andythenorth> as parameters
18:32:30  <andythenorth> maybe that would be best
18:39:43  <andythenorth> oof now I have to try it :P
18:47:48  <andythenorth> can't show company colour in Action 14 lists :D
18:47:49  <andythenorth> nvm
18:53:02  <Timberwolf> BBV's Mammoth Major was the inspiration for Timberwolf's Road Vehicles.
18:53:27  <Timberwolf> Specifically, that 40 year stretch where it's the only one you use.
18:54:17  <Timberwolf> It was originally supposed to be a little gap-filler to go alongside Bob's sets.
18:56:15  <andythenorth> what have you learnt from TRV?
18:56:22  <andythenorth> what would you keep / do differently?
18:56:25  * andythenorth steals 
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18:59:01  <TrueBrain> nice progress there frosch123 :) Found any errors in truewiki?
18:59:32  <andythenorth> oof if I add a parameter for company colours
18:59:38  <andythenorth> the names will be e.g. 'pink'
18:59:45  <andythenorth> but there are company-colour changing grfs
18:59:50  <frosch123> TrueBrain: only mediawiki insanity
19:00:33  <andythenorth> oh the company colour grfs don't change the names anyway
19:04:10  <TrueBrain> frosch123: results are looking good :) Cannot believe how many deadlinks we have on our wiki :D
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19:05:32  <andythenorth> do they 404?
19:05:39  * andythenorth is a big fan of linkcheckers
19:05:58  <TrueBrain> they do not; as a page that does not exist in wiki simply means a page that is not created yet :P
19:06:04  <andythenorth> oh yes that :)
19:06:06  <andythenorth> wiki lolz
19:06:31  <frosch123> well, all the translations :)
19:09:10  <andythenorth> oof action 14 caching :D
19:09:16  <andythenorth> much restarting of openttd
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19:09:50  * andythenorth is adding player control over 'random' wagon choices 
19:09:59  <andythenorth> but I am seriously considering a 'rainbow' option
19:10:07  <Wolf01> Tank time
19:11:35  <andythenorth> I rage quit tanks yesterday
19:11:40  <andythenorth> 10% WR
19:11:51  <andythenorth> red teams all just stacked, 70% players vs 40% on my team
19:11:58  <andythenorth> 'true random'
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19:35:20  <Wolf01> Nice, I unearthed a kv1
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19:42:09  <andythenorth> what from a lake?
19:42:14  <andythenorth> like that Youtube video?
19:42:40  <Wolf01> No, it was in the middle of a field
19:43:39  <andythenorth> what game is it?
19:43:49  <Wolf01> Tank mechanic sim
19:47:42  <Wolf01> Too bad is only de-rust, sand, primer, paint... you don't even need to take apart the tank
19:48:11  <Wolf01> I would have liked more if there were broken parts which you needed to remove and replace
19:50:01  <andythenorth> do you get to use an AVRE
19:50:05  <andythenorth> is it like spin tires?
19:50:31  <andythenorth> omg there's a mac version
19:50:34  <andythenorth> on a steam game
19:50:35  <andythenorth> wtf?
19:50:37  <Wolf01> Don't know, I didn't play spin tires
19:51:21  <andythenorth> me neither, but I watched a lot of videos
20:00:16  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: "Don't try to please everyone by adding a parameter for their particular use case" would be a big (if slightly sad and mean) one.
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20:01:55  <andythenorth> still favouring rainbow
20:02:29  <andythenorth> April 1 edition of Horse
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20:04:35  <Timberwolf> I think a lot of it was standard newbie stuff, like the later models being a lot better than the earlier ones, failing at relative scale, janky offsets, all of that stuff you fail to pay attention to when someone who knows what they're doing tells you what to consider :)
20:06:24  <andythenorth> what about the vehicle tech tree?
20:06:30  * andythenorth hasn't played it (sorry)
20:06:59  <Timberwolf> Beat it into submission with quantity.
20:07:24  <Timberwolf> Actually real life UK vehicles aren't ideal for a tech tree.
20:08:32  <Timberwolf> You spend 80 years with everything being underpowered, then in the space of about 10 years you go from the first F-series Volvos arriving in the UK to Scania's ridiculous "580? Yeah, 580 sounds good."
20:08:56  <andythenorth> Hog has a bit of that
20:09:18  <andythenorth> Horse has substantially overpowered early trains to avoid that hockey stick power curve
20:09:38  <Timberwolf> The small trucks (Mercedes LK, Bedfork TK etc.) were a really nice idea, I can say it was nice because it's one of things the community suggested.
20:09:52  <andythenorth> what's the capacity?
20:10:26  <Timberwolf> About half the full-size equivalents, but they get a boost for mail so it's more like 2/3rds.
20:10:54  <andythenorth> plausible
20:11:17  * andythenorth downloads it
20:11:28  <andythenorth> wow many parameters :)
20:13:33  <andythenorth> error
20:13:44  <andythenorth> the Transit Custom isn't a double cab (DCIV)
20:13:54  <andythenorth> parameter please
20:14:03  <andythenorth> also it's LWB
20:17:33  <Timberwolf> "Van wheelbases" is the ideal parameter, what I need is yet another variable to interact with the load capacities and performance.
20:19:47  <andythenorth> well you also need roof height
20:19:52  <andythenorth> mine is low-roof
20:20:10  <andythenorth> but that affects cube capacity, not maximum GVW
20:20:16  <andythenorth> and it affects aerodynamics
20:20:27  <andythenorth> swb vs lwb should affect curve speed
20:20:42  <andythenorth> maybe I make my own transit van grf
20:20:45  <andythenorth> featuring my own van
20:20:59  <FLHerne> What you're missing is a Defender 110 with a hydraulic tipper body and a small crane
20:21:06  <andythenorth> you have one?
20:21:12  <Timberwolf> Heh.
20:21:18  <FLHerne> No, my uncle does though :p
20:21:22  <andythenorth> or you're thinking of the National Grid ones with fat tyres?
20:21:25  * FLHerne has a red bicycle
20:21:32  <FLHerne> Which would be, like, two pixels
20:21:34  <andythenorth> there's a fat-tyred Transit as well that national grid use
20:21:55  <andythenorth> FLHerne
20:22:08  <FLHerne> I wonder if you could do a whole peloton of cyclists as a vehicle?
20:22:23  <FLHerne> With animations for them jockeying about
20:22:41  <andythenorth> we have seagull objects
20:22:43  <andythenorth> so why not?
20:22:54  <FLHerne> I know, I've built loads of those :p
20:23:00  <andythenorth> if there was a red traffic light though, 50% would go through it
20:23:02  <andythenorth> and 50% would not
20:23:06  <Timberwolf> Do it as the London hire bikes, then the "empty" state can be one of those flatbed vehicles with a rack of bikes in the back.
20:23:21  <FLHerne> Traffic lights are bloody annoying on a bike
20:24:13  <andythenorth> I know, I wait at them a lot
20:24:17  <andythenorth> thinking time eh
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20:24:20  <FLHerne> Half the time there's definitely no reason to stop
20:24:26  * FLHerne generally abides by them
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20:25:17  <Timberwolf> The most annoying are segregated cycle lane lights where if you were on the road you'd have a green, but your bike lane has a red because cars can make a left/right turn across it.
20:25:45  <andythenorth> hmm how do recolour sprites work
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20:28:01  <andythenorth> I have no idea what I'm doing :P
20:28:14  * FLHerne pokes email filters
20:28:38  <FLHerne> I still have 11k unread emails, but at least now I know what I'm not reading :p
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20:34:57  <andythenorth> if "return base_sprite_2cc + 16 * company_colour2 + company_colour1" gives me regular 1CC and 2CC
20:35:19  <andythenorth> how do I get 1cc translated to e.g. COLOUR_DARK_BLUE
20:35:40  <andythenorth> I don't understand the method this page describes
20:36:15  <frosch123> you just replace "company_colour1" with "COLOUR_DARK_BLUE"
20:36:51  <frosch123> you can also replace the whole thing with palette_2cc(company_colour2, COLOUR_DARK_BLUE)
20:37:00  <frosch123> instead of the custom + *
20:37:05  <andythenorth> neat
20:37:36  <andythenorth> so just return that palette?  No base_sprite_2cc?
20:37:53  <frosch123> palette_2cc contains base_sprite_2cc
20:37:57  <frosch123> i would hope :)
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20:38:24  <andythenorth> ok
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20:47:43  <andythenorth> oof I have some silly typo bug in my action 14
20:47:47  <andythenorth> testing it is so annoying :D
20:47:52  <andythenorth> openttd is so slow to start
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21:02:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ceeac opened issue #8335: Data race when loading fluidsynth music driver
21:21:28  <andythenorth> is nml parameterised switches merged? :P
21:21:31  * andythenorth could look
21:30:10  <andythenorth> oh it was :D
21:46:10  <andythenorth> ha 4 randomised choices of wagon colour :D
21:46:11  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE
21:47:59  <andythenorth>
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22:04:31  <Eddi|zuHause> parameterised switches? you mean procedures?
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22:10:11  <andythenorth> yes
22:13:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to use procedures for something in CETS, but i completely forgot everything about it
22:14:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was the capacity switches
22:15:03  <andythenorth> procedures with parameters are really helpful
22:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i wanted to teach procedures to nml twice, but got stuck both times
22:15:32  <andythenorth> faster compile, reduced file size, and often simpler code
22:15:45  <andythenorth> or at least, the complexity is distributed better :P
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22:37:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech opened issue #8336: [Game play] Vehicle disasters should always be banner headlines.
22:44:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8336: [Game play] Vehicle disasters should always be banner headlines.
22:44:34  <FLHerne> What a strange bug report
23:09:50  <andythenorth> bed
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