Log for #openttd on 13th November 2020:
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00:00:12  <frosch123> night
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00:11:27  <TrueBrain> haha, it was memory .... and one surprising one .. "git clone" requires 230MB of RAM to clone that repo :D
00:11:29  <TrueBrain> lolzzz
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09:45:02  <orudge> TrueBrain: Has DorpsGek gone mad? 4198 e-mails (GitHub notifications) from it overnight...
09:46:37  <TrueBrain> wuth?
09:46:38  <orudge> <-- and it's still going
09:47:06  <TrueBrain> I have NO idea what happened there and why it was allowed :(
09:47:07  <TrueBrain> so sorry ....
09:48:05  <TrueBrain> that GitHub didn't rate limit that ...
09:48:49  <TrueBrain> killed it for now
09:49:15  <TrueBrain> don't know why you got 4198 emails, it should be 2100 :P
09:49:28  <orudge> well
09:49:32  <orudge> maybe I miscounted
09:49:42  <orudge> I was going on the "order received" column in Thunderbird :D
09:49:42  <TrueBrain> :P :P :P
09:49:45  <LordAro> oh my
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09:51:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain commented on issue #82: [pt_BR] Translator access request
09:51:19  <TrueBrain> really cannot believe GitHub doesn't spam-protect this
09:52:53  <SpComb> did it trigger a new inspection of the issue description and comment for every github hook comment notification? :P
09:52:54  <TrueBrain> but ... do you think he got the message? :P :P :P
09:53:31  <LordAro> i didn't realise it actually bothered to check the entire template
09:53:42  <TrueBrain> up to the marker
09:53:50  <TrueBrain> which is stated pretty clearly around the markers
09:53:50  <LordAro> surely just searching for `<!-- translator: <lang> -->` would actually be enough?
09:54:14  <TrueBrain> once again, maybe better to ask why we did it this way, than the start with a judgement ;)
09:54:31  <TrueBrain> but we wanted to prevent people changing the language in the text, meaning DorpsGek would add people to other languages than the text describes
09:54:50  <TrueBrain> so it validates up to the <!-- Please do not edit the above message. Do feel free to add a personal note after this line. -->
09:54:55  <TrueBrain> I mean, it is not that the marker isn't clear :P
09:55:11  <TrueBrain> and he added above the marker .. like .. RIGHT above it
09:55:12  <LordAro> oh for sure
09:55:37  <TrueBrain> so I don't blame DorpsGek for shutting this down, as in: learn to read
09:55:42  <TrueBrain> but ... it shouldn't do that 2100 times :D
09:57:39  <LordAro> i'm surprised we managed to miss testing the "has modified template" case
09:58:01  <TrueBrain> I did test it, that is the worst part
09:58:12  <LordAro> but yeah, i see it in the code - gets a new comment and validates the main post
09:58:18  <LordAro> regardless of who sent the last comment :p
09:58:32  <TrueBrain> yup .. and it should only check on issue, not on comment
09:58:59  <LordAro> well... maybe? they could change it between issue & comment
09:59:10  <LordAro> which presumably is what you were trying to protect against
09:59:15  <TrueBrain> but there is no trigger on edits
09:59:21  <TrueBrain> hmm, no, I get what you mean
09:59:30  <TrueBrain> well, I was mostly trying to protect against jokers doing that while creating the ticket
09:59:34  <TrueBrain> did not consider the editing scenario
09:59:55  <TrueBrain> okay, so the main fix is simply: do not trigger if DorpsGek did it
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10:00:28  <LordAro> aye
10:01:00  <TrueBrain> can you put an if on a job ..
10:01:06  <TrueBrain> seems you can
10:01:23  <LordAro> wouldn't be much harder to modify the python itself?
10:01:26  <LordAro> might be cleaner
10:02:08  <LordAro> check for membership of bots
10:02:13  <LordAro> or whatever the group name is
10:02:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain opened pull request #83: Prevent skynet
10:02:52  <TrueBrain> I was thinking about this ^^ ?
10:04:44  <LordAro> i was thinking about `if is_part_of_team(login, "it-s-a-bot-s-world"): return`
10:04:53  <LordAro> yes, that's apparently the group's name :p
10:05:02  <TrueBrain> why do it in Python if you can already do it in the workflow?
10:05:17  <TrueBrain> I don't see the benefit of it? (honest question)
10:06:17  <LordAro> well the workflow is technically separate from the code
10:06:55  <TrueBrain> yes .. and the workflow is the reason it is done under DorpsGek (as he feeds his token)
10:07:02  <TrueBrain> so he knows to ignore DorpsGek
10:07:14  <TrueBrain> in the code, it can be a bit odd .. as what-ever-else executes the code
10:07:17  <TrueBrain> doesn't have to be a bot, or in the group
10:07:31  <TrueBrain> so who to ignore is a bit harder, if you want to do it cleanly
10:07:32  <LordAro> yes, that's true
10:07:35  <TrueBrain> would mean you first hav eto request who you are
10:07:38  <TrueBrain> and ignore that person
10:07:45  <TrueBrain> which is also a fine route to go, but .. ugh, lot of code :P
10:08:12  <LordAro> yeah that's fine
10:08:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro approved pull request #83: Prevent skynet
10:08:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain merged pull request #83: Prevent skynet
10:08:58  <TrueBrain> bit untested, but I believe in documentation
10:09:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain opened issue #84: [nl_NL] Translator access request
10:09:56  <LordAro> just as well i unwatched the team repo a few days ago :p
10:10:08  <TrueBrain> I am happy orudge reported this :)
10:10:16  <TrueBrain> pretty sure the user itself wouldn't have had a real way to report it :P
10:10:30  <TrueBrain>
10:10:32  <TrueBrain> owh yeah
10:10:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro commented on issue #81: [de_DE] Translator access request
10:10:59  <TrueBrain> euhm ... why didn't it see that I changed the topic ... lol
10:11:53  <TrueBrain> huh .... I don't get that :P
10:11:53  <LordAro> well i guess it's kind of an improvement
10:12:26  <TrueBrain> but how did this happen code-wise?
10:13:34  <TrueBrain> owh, I see I missed another "return"
10:13:46  <TrueBrain> but that is not the cause
10:14:09  <TrueBrain> not often that I am like: huh?
10:14:11  <TrueBrain> but I am like: huh?
10:16:08  <TrueBrain> I mean: wuth? :)
10:17:36  <longtomjr> Lol
10:17:58  <TrueBrain> I am just going to rerun the task
10:18:01  <TrueBrain> that much I cannot believ ethis
10:18:43  <longtomjr> Skynet!
10:25:07  <TrueBrain> ah, no, the code does allow changes before that line too
10:25:20  <TrueBrain> we are a bit more forgiven
10:26:19  <TrueBrain> he changed text
10:26:22  <TrueBrain> like ...
10:26:24  <TrueBrain> really changed a line
10:26:34  <TrueBrain> I would like to ask for access to help translating OpenTTD
10:26:35  <TrueBrain> vs
10:26:40  <TrueBrain> I would like to ask for access to help to translate OpenTTD
10:26:55  <TrueBrain> (first is what the template defines, second is what he changed it into)
10:27:04  <TrueBrain> that is why it got refused; not so much because of the text he added
10:27:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain closed issue #84: [nl_NL] Translator access request
10:27:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain opened issue #85: [nl_NL] Translator access request
10:28:30  <LordAro> what an odd sort of change
10:28:45  <TrueBrain> yeah ....
10:29:06  <TrueBrain> okay, no more SkyNet, I now proved it!
10:29:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain opened pull request #86: Fix: one more place where it didn't return a tuple where was expected
10:29:15  <TrueBrain> and one more fix :D
10:29:39  <TrueBrain> took me a long time to find what he changed btw, it is rather subtle
10:30:11  <TrueBrain> and it is not like an old text of ours
10:30:17  <TrueBrain> so I can only deduce it was really him that changed it
10:30:29  <TrueBrain> overly-pedantic? Not sure ..
10:30:44  <TrueBrain> but okay, the code also allows you to add a line just before the <!-- marker, which clearly helps as people do not really read :)
10:30:47  <TrueBrain> which is fine by me, honestly :)
10:34:13  <TrueBrain> awh, I cannot self-approve that PR :P
11:01:36  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm now at my work computer, and can't be bothered to get the authenticator app open to log in :p
11:02:01  <TrueBrain> pffft
11:02:08  <TrueBrain> well, you do you! :P
11:02:13  <TrueBrain> but I expect a +1 tonight :D
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11:25:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 approved pull request #86: Fix: one more place where it didn't return a tuple where was expected
11:25:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain merged pull request #86: Fix: one more place where it didn't return a tuple where was expected
11:30:28  <TrueBrain> I really do not understand HTTP Cache Control, it seems :P
11:32:40  <TrueBrain> annoying, after login you get the cached main page, which doesn't show "edit" yet :P
11:42:43  <frosch123> sounds like taxes. if you want to edit this page, you have to edit another one first
11:43:38  <TrueBrain> also odd, in aiohttp, the middleware sees response code 200, but a 304 is going out :P
11:43:46  <TrueBrain> the last-modified detection is done after the middleware :D
11:44:42  * frosch123 learns about 304
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12:54:42  <TrueBrain> I don't get it ... I tell browsers to cache files for 5 minutes, but it keeps revalidating ...
12:55:26  <TrueBrain> ah, firefox has issues with no-cache="Set-Cookie"
12:55:29  <TrueBrain> fine .. I don't need it anyway
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13:25:59  <TrueBrain> okay, think I figured it out ...
13:26:05  <TrueBrain> the /uploads and /static are cached for 5 minutes
13:26:16  <TrueBrain> and other pages return when they were last rendered (read: modified)
13:26:17  <andythenorth> lunch!
13:26:27  <TrueBrain> meaning 304s are returned if the browser has the same page already in cache
13:27:18  <TrueBrain> that should improve performance a bit .. I hope
13:27:20  <TrueBrain> time to deploy :D
13:28:36  <TrueBrain> hmm, only if a new translation of a page is added, it won't show up for browsers that have the file in cache, I guess
13:35:01  <TrueBrain> there we go .. that was easy to solve :D
13:37:32  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Hey, at least you didn't do it to paying customers like we did a few years ago
13:38:02  <TrueBrain> invalidate caching wrong?
13:38:14  <FLHerne> Pretty much, yes
13:38:31  <TrueBrain> it is hard to get right
13:38:36  <TrueBrain> and the reason I in general try to avoid it
13:38:40  <FLHerne> There was a job that ran every n minutes and batch-sent all pending emails, then flagged them as 'sent' in the database
13:39:10  <FLHerne> Needless to say, the last bit wasn't working quite right :-/
13:39:23  <TrueBrain> oef ...
13:40:09  <TrueBrain> my favorite is still that I executed a command that does some heavy I/O operations .. we did that all the time .. also on production servers, as the job was scheduled with ionice and everything .. well .. it brought the production server to a halt :P
13:40:27  <TrueBrain> as in .. SSH was not responding correctly :P
13:40:39  <TrueBrain> ionice is not always as nice as you might think :D
13:41:13  <TrueBrain> on most production-servers this data was on their own disk .. except one ... always one ... :P
13:42:06  <TrueBrain> why are people complaining that the "unlimited" free Google Photos storage is now becoming a 15GB free storage?
13:42:10  <TrueBrain> like ... it is still A LOT of storage
13:42:21  <TrueBrain> if you take that many photos ... fucking pay for it
13:42:49  <FLHerne> Yeah, that's what I thought
13:43:25  <FLHerne> I can understand the anger at photobucket/flickr/whatever where they deleted or hid *existing* photos
13:43:40  <FLHerne> That breaks a ton of old forum posts
13:44:05  <TrueBrain> the 15GB only starts to count from next year somewhere .. which is very generous tbfh
13:44:09  <TrueBrain> it is not like they back-count
13:44:11  <FLHerne> But Google are explicitly only limiting new uploads, to a pretty high cap, so what's the problem?
13:44:23  <TrueBrain> "but I upload more than 15GB a month", I guess
13:44:55  <FLHerne> Then buy your own damn NFS box :p
13:45:46  <TrueBrain> seems people are just complaining for the fact of complaining
13:45:53  <frosch123> hmm, turns out i sometimes start truewiki with data in /data, and sometimes in /code/data. both worked?
13:46:55  <TrueBrain> depends on your parameter :P
13:47:05  <TrueBrain> by default it does ./data, workdir is /code in the Docker
13:47:25  <TrueBrain> but the default parameters of the Dockerfile are to use /data
13:47:44  <TrueBrain> so it depends if you are overwriting the default parameters :D
13:48:38  <TrueBrain> but if you use the "github" storage driver, it all doesn't matter .. as it makes sure it is "master" on startup
13:48:43  <frosch123> ok, i did not set --storage-folder when checking
13:48:45  <TrueBrain> only the "local" and "git" storage driver don't :P
13:49:53  <TrueBrain> I abused that fact about the github driver a lot, as .. what-ever I comitted, it was gone next startup :)
13:50:04  <TrueBrain> also something to be careful with, of course :D
13:50:26  <frosch123> i only use "local"
13:51:00  <TrueBrain> that is fine for development, indeed :)
13:51:07  <TrueBrain> doesn't make commits on save, etc
13:51:23  <TrueBrain> doesn't even keep history :P
13:52:28  <TrueBrain> <- should now be a lot quicker to navigate around etc
13:54:46  <TrueBrain> right, time to stress-test it a bit I guess .. see how many request/s it can do
13:56:20  <TrueBrain> Requests per second:    15.71 [#/sec] (mean)
13:56:20  <TrueBrain> Time per request:       6364.901 [ms] (mean)
13:56:23  <TrueBrain> I have had better :P
13:58:08  <TrueBrain> " orudge authored and None committed 31 seconds ago" <- "and None" .. lol .. that .. feels like a bug :D
14:02:59  <TrueBrain> yeah, 15 requests/sec it can handle without becoming laggy .. after that, it starts to slow down by a lot :P
14:03:26  <TrueBrain> deploying fix for the None :)
14:07:24  <TrueBrain> okay, mediawiki is about equal in speed
14:14:25  <TrueBrain> and mediawiki caches the page ... I do not :P Lol
14:14:36  <TrueBrain> sometimes you realise the stupidity of the world
14:15:48  <TrueBrain> but okay, one could reduce from this, that if mediawiki is surviving, so should the new site
14:17:07  <TrueBrain> <- best fix EVAH
14:20:28  <LordAro> :D
14:22:19  <frosch123> <- anyone knows what parameter "c" meant in older phpbb versions?
14:26:35  <LordAro> comment number?
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14:50:23  <TrueBrain> frosch123: maybe orudge does
14:50:33  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I have a crazy idea to improve speed with little effort ... goes to try
14:53:08  <frosch123> going from where it is linked, it means nothing :)
14:54:04  <frosch123> but phpbb accumulated a lot of different urls over the years, so i need plenty of regexes :)
14:55:31  <TrueBrain> ghehe .. yup ...
14:58:06  <TrueBrain> okay .. crazy idea .. what if I cache the rendered HTML on disk
14:58:17  <TrueBrain> because of the cache stuff I did, I already invalidate that at the right moment
14:59:08  <TrueBrain> disk-space plenty
14:59:37  <andythenorth> that is a known technique
15:01:16  <TrueBrain> how much disk space would that take, worst case ... lets find out
15:03:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #8339: [Game-play] Stopped vehicles started after reloading network game
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15:15:51  <TrueBrain> frosch123: you forgot 1 * page, I think :)
15:15:52  <TrueBrain> [[en/Archive/Community/Users/Red*Star]]
15:15:53  <TrueBrain> :D
15:16:08  <TrueBrain> that page cannot be opened :P
15:20:48  <TrueBrain> everything rendered is < 150MB on disk
15:20:48  <TrueBrain> lol
15:20:53  <frosch123> so a testcase for the rename script :)
15:30:01  <TrueBrain> <- guess that would do the trick
15:30:06  <TrueBrain> good idea / bad idea? I dunno ..
15:30:09  <TrueBrain> guess we will find out
15:30:13  <TrueBrain> well, later tonight; first some dinner
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15:59:48  <ask6155> hello
16:00:06  <ask6155> can someone tell me how newGRFs work?
16:00:23  <frosch123> as user? as developer?
16:00:29  <ask6155> oh
16:00:32  <ask6155> as a user
16:00:50  <frosch123> <- see here
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16:05:43  <orudge> frosch123: I suspect category, as in forum category
16:06:24  <ask6155> I have some doubts... if I get the PoTA GRF... it is a landscape... what does it do?
16:08:46  <frosch123> after you enabled it in main menu, a new game will look like this
16:09:18  <ask6155> ooooooh
16:10:17  <ask6155> also there are town name grfs... how do they work? I installed one and it doesn't show up in the settings list
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16:11:16  <ask6155> wait no no I does show. It's just hard to see
16:11:21  <ask6155> *spot
16:11:30  <frosch123> yeah, they are special, you need to add them both to newgrf settings, and then select them in game setting
16:11:31  <FLHerne> ask6155: It should show up, assuming you've enabled it and clicked 'apply'
16:12:44  <FLHerne> I wrote this years ago, it's still pretty much true
16:13:12  <FLHerne> The only big newgrf capability since then is roadtypes, I think
16:13:32  <ask6155> one of the few 19 year old documentations I'm reading
16:13:51  <FLHerne> Hey, that one's only seven years old :p
16:14:26  <FLHerne> Anyway, the answer is download stuff that looks interesting, see whether you like the effects :p
16:14:46  <ask6155> oh I'm stupid
16:14:53  <ask6155> hehe
16:16:50  <FLHerne> And the big list on the wiki is kept fairly up-to-date by kamnet et al
16:17:27  <FLHerne> (not all grfs are available through the online content downloader, for historical and other reasons)
16:18:15  <FLHerne> Another suggestion: if you look at the screenshots subforum, there are often lists of what people are using, and then you can see what it looks like
16:19:30  <ask6155> can you give me a link to that please?
16:20:05  <FLHerne>
16:23:20  <ask6155> thanks!
16:26:55  <FLHerne> My old one (UK-ish) is , and the grf list was approximately
16:27:10  <FLHerne> I should find time to do screenshots again, it was fun
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16:27:33  <ask6155> openMSX is supposed to play music right?
16:27:43  <ask6155> I don't hear anything
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16:29:50  <FLHerne> Have you selected it under 'base music set' in Game Options?
16:30:08  <FLHerne> There's also a volume control in the toolbar
16:33:48  <andythenorth> FLHerne I can't persuade you to a Steeltown screenshot series? :P
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17:01:09  <ask6155> When I goto it and press play it just shows the names of the songs
17:01:19  <ask6155> one by one very fast
17:01:25  <ask6155> it doesn't play any
17:01:59  <longtomjr> on what operating system are you?
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17:09:33  <LordAro> that's a classic "doesn't have fluidsynth/timidity installed
17:09:37  <LordAro> /configured
17:09:52  <longtomjr> yep, that is what I though as well
17:46:32  * andythenorth ships FIRS 4 Alpha 4
17:46:37  <andythenorth> FIRS is such a big beast
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18:37:21  <frosch123> TrueBrain: did you want to make the skynet victim a translator? or were they scared off?
18:37:39  <Wolf01> Wut?
18:38:25  <frosch123> Wolf01: skynet escaped from tb's cellar
18:38:33  <frosch123> had to catch it
18:38:38  <Wolf01> Oh man
18:39:53  <frosch123> TrueBrain: well, i guess they wouldn't notice their invitation mail anyway :)
18:43:53  <Wolf01> Hmmmm, the new features for F 1.1 are really interesting
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19:34:58  <andythenorth> so for Horse, a parameter to choose how wagons randomise colours
19:35:20  <andythenorth> and one of the parameter options is 'choose random scheme per train'
19:35:23  <andythenorth> :P
19:37:14  <Wolf01> Preview on train whack?
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19:43:02  <andythenorth> unsupported on train whack :P
19:43:15  <Wolf01> Support it :P
19:49:02  <andythenorth> send patches :P
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20:58:05  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I wanted to wait for him to make a new ticket, this time unaltered
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20:58:17  <TrueBrain> honestly, if you cannot follow these simple instructions ... not sure how that would end with translating :P :P :P
20:58:53  <frosch123> we have >20% failed invites now :)
21:00:02  <TrueBrain> hmm .. how does a programmable LED strip work ...
21:00:07  <TrueBrain> I need to prepare for xmas :P
21:01:12  <frosch123> with raspi?
21:03:13  <TrueBrain> esp8266
21:03:16  <TrueBrain> if possible
21:03:28  <TrueBrain> seems WLED application takes care of that
21:05:11  <TrueBrain> WS2812B leds, I guess ...
21:13:39  <TrueBrain> damn, those things need huge power supplies :P Haha :D
21:14:58  <frosch123> what? did you get more leds than wiki commits?
21:18:04  <frosch123> a normal led has like 2mW, doesn't it?
21:19:19  <TrueBrain> most WS2812B seem to be 0.7W per LED
21:19:27  <TrueBrain> there are like 60 in a meter, if you want something nice
21:19:29  <TrueBrain> at 5V
21:19:35  <TrueBrain> so 5 meter ...
21:19:45  <TrueBrain> @calc 0.7 * 60 / 5
21:19:45  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 8.4
21:19:48  <TrueBrain> 8A
21:20:05  <frosch123> 0.7W led .o
21:20:32  <TrueBrain> well, it is not 1 LED most likely, I would guess, given they are RGBW
21:20:44  <TrueBrain> and there is an IC in there as you can control them all individually
21:20:44  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: With 40W still less than your typical incandescent light.
21:21:14  <TrueBrain> "less", what are you measuring?
21:21:34  <TrueBrain> less luminescence?
21:21:55  <michi_cc> Less power use.
21:22:09  <TrueBrain> well, yes, but I don't really have a 5V 40W, I think
21:22:14  <TrueBrain> most are 5V 10W
21:22:22  <frosch123> i thought you wanted some pretty lights, now you light a whole room :)
21:23:07  <TrueBrain> well, yes, xmas is coming :D
21:23:32  <TrueBrain> but okay, it also requires a powersupply .. the only thing I have that can handle that is my Apple chargers :P
21:23:40  <TrueBrain> (those are 61W)
21:23:41  <frosch123> i'll watch out for a bright colourful star on  the horizon
21:23:52  <TrueBrain> in better news:
21:23:53  <TrueBrain> Requests per second:    154.31 [#/sec] (mean)
21:23:53  <TrueBrain> Time per request:       648.028 [ms] (mean)
21:23:59  <TrueBrain> pages are now cached on disk after first load
21:24:12  <TrueBrain> it is 10 times as fast now :D
21:24:15  <TrueBrain> we should be fine :P
21:24:40  <frosch123> that's 100 requests in parallel?
21:25:22  <TrueBrain> that was "ab -n 1000 -c 100"
21:26:05  <TrueBrain> 15ms to serve a page :D
21:26:19  <frosch123> :)
21:26:42  <frosch123> at least some ponies
21:26:47  <TrueBrain> cache invalidation should work, at least, I think I found all the places to do so
21:26:53  <frosch123> we got denied the other pony
21:26:57  <TrueBrain> and this is still a single instance .. I can always scale up :P
21:27:06  <TrueBrain> who denied ponies?! :(
21:27:12  <frosch123> aws did
21:28:07  <TrueBrain> also with NO context what-so-ever
21:28:08  <TrueBrain> lol
21:29:10  <TrueBrain> meh ... means I have to take care of the (insanely high) bill on AWS in the next 6 weeks .. that will be fine :)
21:29:19  <TrueBrain> too bad; I was hoping they would grant us another year
21:29:23  <andythenorth> do we need a bailout?
21:29:34  <TrueBrain> but it is really really unclear on what they judge applications
21:29:55  <andythenorth> random()
21:30:09  <TrueBrain> it might be a one-year thing .. I don't know :P
21:31:28  <frosch123> you mean just bait? :p
21:32:49  <TrueBrain> hmm, no, there is no such rule, it seems
21:32:52  <TrueBrain> dunno ..
21:32:57  * andythenorth watching TV
21:32:59  <andythenorth> TV is weird
21:33:07  <TrueBrain> Assuming that they meet the basic eligibility requirements above, we will be examining applications on the basis of their relevance to AWS and its customers. The Amazon Leadership Principles will be used as the guiding light to select the projects.
21:33:09  <TrueBrain> is all it says
21:33:26  <TrueBrain> wouldn't know why one year it is, the other year it isn't eligible .. shrug
21:33:44  <frosch123> maybe we got a fanboy last year :)
21:33:48  <TrueBrain> but 6000 euro a year is a bit much for us, so I guess we have to rent 2 OVH VPSes to handle most of the bandwidth :)
21:34:00  <TrueBrain> (read: zBase and abase)
21:34:05  <frosch123> and this year someone who was denied a daylength pony
21:34:30  <TrueBrain> I don't know if any of you feels up to it to click that "email" link and ask them if there is anything we can do
21:35:21  <TrueBrain> we could also stop hosting abase and zBase btw :P
21:35:24  <TrueBrain> also a valid solution to the problem
21:35:40  <andythenorth> charge download fee
21:36:37  <frosch123> so, we keep the containers, but need a custom cdn for binaries/bananas?
21:37:05  <TrueBrain> bandwidth is 90% of our bill :)
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21:38:05  <TrueBrain> I am really curious why it is denied ... maybe it is something silly like wrong account ID .. shrug :P
21:38:06  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
21:38:11  <TrueBrain> I might feel like emailing tomorrow
21:38:46  <frosch123> how many TB/month did we have?
21:39:02  <TrueBrain> let me get the data for you ..
21:39:28  <frosch123> just a rough guess is enough?
21:39:58  <TrueBrain> nah, I want to know for sure what it all is
21:40:10  <TrueBrain> so, daily we pay 18 dollar atm, of which 14 is in CloudFront
21:40:54  <TrueBrain> the remaining 4 dollar can be cut down a bit if we don't run on on-demand EC2 (I was just too lazy to change that, honestly)
21:42:45  <TrueBrain> I am now looking for the CloudFront bill overview, but I cannot find it :D
21:42:51  <TrueBrain> I always get lost :P
21:43:23  <TrueBrain> ah, there we go
21:43:43  <TrueBrain> so if we look at last month
21:43:49  <TrueBrain> 376 dollar was for CloudFront
21:43:55  <TrueBrain> of which 247 dollar was in Europe
21:44:11  <TrueBrain> this is because we did 3TB inside Europe
21:44:54  <TrueBrain> 300GB in Asia Pacific, 80GB in Australia, 150GB in South America, 50GB in India, and 500GB in US
21:45:03  <TrueBrain> a total of 4TB, give or take
21:46:01  <TrueBrain> of that same month
21:46:11  <TrueBrain> 1TB was zBase, 655GB was abase
21:46:30  <TrueBrain> next, 26GB was OpenGFX, 25GB was OpenSFX
21:46:32  <TrueBrain> rest is pocket-change
21:47:03  <TrueBrain> zBase was downloaded 3800 times, aBase 2600 times
21:47:10  <TrueBrain> just to show the insanity of those two downloads :)
21:47:47  <frosch123> both azure and google want about /TB/month. OVH is a lot cheaper with /TB/month if we take 10TB/month
21:48:04  <TrueBrain> OVH VPS, 5 euro per month, 3TB included
21:48:08  <TrueBrain> I can do you cheaper ;)
21:48:19  <TrueBrain> it just isn't a CDN
21:48:19  <frosch123> <- i was looking at that, no idea what it means :)
21:48:46  <TrueBrain> 180GB per month for opensfx via the installer
21:48:55  <TrueBrain> 60GB per month for OpenGFX via the installer
21:49:03  <TrueBrain> I did not know OpenSFX was bigger :P
21:49:14  <TrueBrain> 20k hits per month on both
21:49:31  <TrueBrain> 1.10.3 windows release was downloaded 25k times, worth 100GB
21:50:08  <frosch123> yeah, sfx is 12mb, gfx 5mb
21:51:17  <TrueBrain> we deal with ~80k hits per day on CDN/BaNaNaS/.. (a binary download)
21:51:31  <TrueBrain> roughly 150GB per day
21:51:45  <TrueBrain> but I have a hard time adding up to the 4TB a month, I have to admit
21:52:00  <TrueBrain> getting to the 2TB is easy, as that are those 2 downloads :P
21:52:13  <TrueBrain> anyway, we can do several things
21:52:25  <TrueBrain> if we move abase and zBase alone to a OVH VPS, we reduce the AWS bill with 150 dollar per month
21:52:33  <TrueBrain> even more
21:52:54  * andythenorth wonders if we can kill them
21:53:10  <andythenorth> my opinion is invalid, because I dislike the 32bpp EZ stuff
21:53:15  <TrueBrain> well, that is something I just want to talk about
21:53:19  <TrueBrain> because they are last updated in 2016
21:53:23  <TrueBrain> (and zBase in 2015)
21:53:24  <andythenorth>
21:53:26  <TrueBrain> how relevant is the content?
21:53:30  <LordAro> could their distributions be "improved* ? better compressed, etc
21:53:53  <TrueBrain> well, switching a different compression, like zstd helps a bit
21:53:56  <TrueBrain> but that is like 10%
21:54:10  <TrueBrain> but okay, putting that aside for a bit
21:54:19  <andythenorth> would players pay 1 euro for each download
21:54:23  <TrueBrain> it does leave us with a ~300 dollar bill per month in total, without zBase and abase
21:54:24  <LordAro> i suppose the images couldn't be improved any further? not sure how they're encoded in grfs
21:54:38  <TrueBrain> we have enough donations to cover us for a year or 2
21:54:38  <frosch123> TrueBrain: they are popular among new players. but it's unfortunate that they are two sets, and not abase a new version to zbase
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21:55:07  <TrueBrain> we can reduce the bill further, honestly
21:55:20  <LordAro> i think zeph is still activeish, dunno about the other, could discuss it with them?
21:55:23  <TrueBrain> if we move BaNaNaS completely away to VPS distribution, basically
21:55:29  <LordAro> (or just do it, depending on licences)
21:55:43  <frosch123> LordAro: the abase guy lost all their sources due to disk crash or something, and abandoned their project
21:55:49  <LordAro> (re frosch suggestion)
21:55:50  <frosch123> abase differs from zbase in like 50 gui sprites
21:55:58  <TrueBrain> but it depends a bit on what we find acceptable here
21:56:03  <andythenorth> abase thread says it's dead
21:56:36  <TrueBrain> so in a bigger picture ... fixing abase/zBase does a lot
21:56:41  <TrueBrain> but do we find the remainder acceptable
21:56:44  <andythenorth> repo is gone
21:56:51  <andythenorth>
21:57:09  <andythenorth> TrueBrain it's all those Horse uploads eating the bill :(
21:57:15  <TrueBrain> (as, lets be honest, 300 dollar a month is a lot for an Open Source project :P)
21:57:25  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: uploads are free, so no
21:58:07  <LordAro> how much would be needed to "break even" with donations?
21:58:28  <TrueBrain> mind you we haven't done fundraisers in years
21:58:38  <TrueBrain> let me see if I have that information .. (that is orudge's department btw)
21:59:21  <LordAro> i don't need exact numbers :p
21:59:30  <frosch123> i guess we could claim that we can only support hosting one 32bpp baseset, kill abase, and tell people to contribute to zbase
21:59:34  <TrueBrain> but I do need to know estimates :P
21:59:38  <TrueBrain> it is not like I remember that shit LordAro  :D
22:00:05  <TrueBrain> owh, I only have profit/loss, so that is already after the bills we had in those years
22:00:25  <TrueBrain> if I can guestimate this, it is around 1000 dollar in per year; bit less by the looks of it
22:00:37  <LordAro> you're the one who said "cover us for a year or 2"
22:00:40  <LordAro> :p
22:00:51  <TrueBrain> I do know how much we have in reserve
22:00:55  <TrueBrain> that 2 years is with 0 donations :D
22:01:00  <LordAro> right :D
22:01:16  <TrueBrain> we ae VERY bad in using donations (which is a good thing, honestly)
22:02:30  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
22:02:34  <TrueBrain> tt-forums does a 500 pound fundraiser each year
22:02:40  <TrueBrain> we would have a bill around 5 times that amount
22:03:03  <TrueBrain> the problem for me, 300 dollar AWS bill per month is like ... a joke to me :P Any company you work for laughs at those numbers
22:03:09  <TrueBrain> so I have a hard time putting any of this in perspective :P
22:03:19  <LordAro> :)
22:03:27  <frosch123> looks like we are back at vps
22:03:34  <LordAro> this was always the downsize of putting everything on AWS :p
22:03:38  <LordAro> downside*
22:03:49  <TrueBrain> well, I knew when I loaded BaNaNaS onto it, it would be "a problem"
22:03:54  <TrueBrain> I mentioned that many many times :D
22:04:03  <TrueBrain> I was always prepared to move those to a VPS network :)
22:04:22  <TrueBrain> this year we got lucky that AWS sponsored us
22:04:25  <TrueBrain> that is all, really :P
22:04:58  <LordAro> how much would you guess would be saved by removing one of abase/zbase?
22:05:05  <LordAro> (i.e. how many download both?)
22:05:35  <frosch123> LordAro: 655gb of 4tb for abase
22:05:50  <frosch123> so 13%
22:05:51  <TrueBrain> 4TB is arond 376 dollar, 1TB was zBase, 655GB was abase
22:06:04  <LordAro> 376/month?
22:06:12  <TrueBrain> 376 for 4TB
22:06:18  <TrueBrain> thatt .. needs no other time unit
22:06:23  <LordAro> right
22:06:31  <TrueBrain> @calc 655 / 4000 * 376
22:06:31  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 61.57
22:06:52  <TrueBrain> so abase costs us 62 dollar per month currently :)
22:07:02  <frosch123> so, removing abase safes us 16% of the cose, but i guess that does not solve the problem either
22:07:02  <TrueBrain> @calc 1000 / 4000 * 376
22:07:02  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 94
22:07:11  <TrueBrain> and zBase 94 :) I like putting numbers in perspective :D
22:07:34  <TrueBrain> @calc (4 + 18) * 30
22:07:34  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 660
22:07:45  <TrueBrain> @calc 18 * 30
22:07:45  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 540
22:08:00  <TrueBrain> right, let me just get my calculator, instead of spamming here
22:08:01  <frosch123> we cannot stop hosting both 32bpp sets :) and moving only them to a vps makes no sense either, does it?
22:08:28  <LordAro> how about moving all basesets?
22:08:31  <TrueBrain> well, moving only them means the rest of BaNaNaS is still very fast no matter where you live
22:08:36  <TrueBrain> those two will be EU based, and a bit slower
22:09:44  <TrueBrain> I am basically min/maxing user experience
22:09:50  <TrueBrain> ah, finally found the total usage of BaNaNaS
22:09:54  <TrueBrain> out of the 4TB, 3.5TB is BaNaNaS :)
22:10:31  *** Koala has joined #openttd
22:10:33  <TrueBrain> 300GB are the binaries, of which 1 day was 60GB .. some days are weird
22:10:39  <Koala> Hello hello hello
22:10:51  <frosch123> speed is only important for big downloads. so, i see no reason to keep anything on aws. we should pick whatever is easier to implement
22:10:53  <TrueBrain> also 10 times more downloads, so I guess we got posted on some forum :P
22:11:14  <Koala> How's it hanging in paradise?
22:11:25  <TrueBrain> frosch123: that is fair
22:11:34  <TrueBrain> given 80% of the traffic is EU based, I suggest we keep everything in the EU
22:11:38  <TrueBrain> pick 2 cheap VPSes
22:11:43  <TrueBrain> round robin the DNS
22:12:04  <TrueBrain> doing that would reduce the bill with ...
22:12:09  <TrueBrain> @calc 3500 / 4000 * 376
22:12:09  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 329
22:12:12  <TrueBrain> that much
22:12:14  <TrueBrain> :P
22:12:18  <LordAro> quite a bit :p
22:12:25  <TrueBrain> meaning that with no incoming donations, we can survive for 4+ years
22:12:27  <LordAro> yeah, that's probably the way to go
22:12:40  <TrueBrain> bandwidth is just silly expensive on cloud providers :)
22:12:47  <LordAro> ~50/month AWS bill sounds plenty survivable
22:12:49  <Koala> What're you guys talking about:D
22:12:55  <LordAro> money
22:12:59  <Koala> Running a server?
22:13:05  <LordAro> many servers
22:13:11  <TrueBrain> LordAro: no no, this was the bandwidth bill
22:13:13  <TrueBrain> not the total bill
22:13:14  <frosch123> TrueBrain: did you reverse those numbers? i think you mean 12+ years
22:13:24  *** Koala has left #openttd
22:13:40  <TrueBrain> @calc 4 * 30 + 50
22:13:40  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 170
22:13:45  <TrueBrain> @calc 170 * 12 * 4
22:13:46  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 8160
22:13:51  <TrueBrain> no, I got that about right frosch123
22:14:23  <TrueBrain> but I can also reduce the 4 dollar per day for the other stuff a bit
22:14:33  <TrueBrain> I believe by 50% if I use a different "savings" plan
22:15:23  <frosch123> what's the 4*30 ?
22:15:26  <frosch123> 4 vps?
22:15:34  <TrueBrain> I told you from the start: 4 dollar per day for the rest of the infra
22:15:44  <TrueBrain> vs 18 dollar per day for the bandwidth bill
22:15:48  <frosch123> ok :)
22:15:53  <TrueBrain> the 376 is ONLY bandwidth :)
22:16:09  <LordAro> @calc 4 * 365
22:16:09  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 1460
22:16:13  <LordAro> @calc 4 * 365 / 12
22:16:13  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 121.666666667
22:16:13  <TrueBrain> well, the 18 dollar was the highest day in a month .. clearly that wasn't fair :P
22:16:51  <frosch123> so, what is easiest to implement?
22:17:10  <TrueBrain> a few, depending on what we like
22:17:13  <TrueBrain>
22:17:20  *** Koala has joined #openttd
22:17:26  <Koala> Back:D
22:17:29  <frosch123> manually move basesets to vps? or change bananas to upload new stuff to vps?
22:17:33  <TrueBrain>
22:18:06  <LordAro> it's almost "cleaner" to exclusively put all basesets on the VPS
22:18:09  <Koala> So do either of you still play OpenTTD?
22:18:23  <TrueBrain>
22:18:46  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I will change BaNaNaS to upload it to where-ever-is-new
22:18:55  <TrueBrain> most likely also copy it to AWS, just for save keeping
22:19:16  <LordAro>
22:19:21  <TrueBrain> LordAro: NewGRFs also cost a bit .. lot of small hits, basically
22:19:42  <LordAro> move everything then?
22:19:49  <LordAro> yeah, seems reasonable
22:19:50  <TrueBrain> I would prefer if we can avoid hetzner, but that is just because they are retards when it comes to criminal activities .. they seem to welcome that
22:19:53  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i thought backblaze was only for personal download :o
22:20:02  <TrueBrain> frosch123: nope, they have business solutions too
22:20:05  <LordAro> TrueBrain: this does not surprise me that much
22:20:12  <LordAro> all i know of them is "omg super cheap"
22:20:12  <TrueBrain> both DigitalOcean as BackBlaze are 1 cent per GB, instead of the current 9
22:20:24  <TrueBrain> they are incredibly cheap, yes
22:20:39  <TrueBrain> you can see we can do the 376 bill away for 3 :P
22:20:46  <Koala> TrueBrain: So do both of you run OpenTTD servers?
22:21:02  <LordAro> Koala: TrueBrain is OTTD sysadmin supreme
22:21:12  <TrueBrain> and I do not run a single OpenTTD game server :P
22:21:32  <LordAro> ah yes, i see the potential for confusion :p
22:21:41  <Koala> LordArg: What does this mean xD
22:21:47  <LordAro> OTTD game servers are not nearly this expensive :p
22:21:54  <LordAro> well, not in terms of bandwidth
22:21:57  <frosch123> Koala: everything *, all bananas, all website, all everything
22:22:12  <milek7> TrueBrain: >WS2812B leds, I guess ...
22:22:15  <milek7>
22:22:20  <Koala> Oh damn, that's mighty impressive
22:22:31  <TrueBrain> so what we used to do, is have 2 OVH VPSes, those of 5 euro a month, and host BaNaNaS mostly on those
22:22:48  <TrueBrain> milek7: yes, exactly :) That are WS2812Bs?
22:23:04  <frosch123> TrueBrain: b2 sounds like the least work?
22:23:21  <frosch123> vps sounds like maintainance again
22:23:27  <TrueBrain> least work is Digital Ocean, ironically :)
22:23:36  <frosch123> no ipv6?
22:23:40  <LordAro> backblaze have always seemed like a friendly place
22:23:45  <TrueBrain> I think they fixed that, lets see ..
22:23:51  <TrueBrain> I love BackBlaze
22:23:53  <TrueBrain> I really really do
22:23:56  <TrueBrain> my backups go there
22:24:02  <LordAro> could ask for sponsorship? :D
22:24:08  <Koala> frosch123: So I'm guessing I just fall into this as someone who is getting in your guys' way:D
22:24:16  <FLHerne> Koala: TrueBrain and frosch123 spent most of the last month (?) writing a brand-new wiki system because MediaWiki isn't good enough ;-)
22:24:19  <frosch123> Koala: learn and grow
22:24:26  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I don't mind if someone does, but I am a bit done by re-evaluating expensive every N months :P
22:24:32  <FLHerne> Koala: They shut up sometimes, and then we can argue about newgrfs instead
22:24:43  <Koala> :D
22:24:44  <FLHerne> It's a bit late, andythenorth might have gone to bed?
22:24:52  <milek7> TrueBrain: ws2811
22:24:54  <milek7>
22:25:05  <TrueBrain> milek7: you like it?
22:25:28  <milek7> it looks nice :)
22:25:33  <milek7> scripted in lua :P
22:26:03  <Koala> FLHerne: That's incredible, so they're talking about servers to run it on?
22:26:43  <frosch123> TrueBrain: oh, both b2 and DO claim to be s3 compatible :)
22:27:10  <TrueBrain> yeah, their API is
22:27:10  <frosch123> does that mean we only have to switch urls and keys?
22:27:15  <TrueBrain> cannot find back if DO is now IPv6
22:27:17  <LordAro> how about other OSS games? there must be something else that has an equivalent sort of hosting
22:27:25  <TrueBrain> I remember something about it, and me laughing, but .. can't find it
22:27:34  <FLHerne> Koala: Mostly the ingame content-download today, if my quick skimreading is correct
22:27:41  <TrueBrain> frosch123: in theory, yes. But .. it is not always that black/white :P
22:27:59  <TrueBrain> LordAro: not sure most OSS use 4TB a month :P
22:28:07  <LordAro> most, sure
22:28:10  <LordAro> but we can't be unique :p
22:28:23  <TrueBrain> our content service kinda is, honestly
22:28:35  <andythenorth> I am here FLHerne
22:28:57  <Koala> FLHerne: Okay I see, so then that's what they mostly talk about is coding and such?
22:29:01  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is useful to mention that BB is not a CDN
22:29:15  <frosch123> what does that mean?
22:29:23  <TrueBrain> that the files are hosted in a single location
22:29:38  <FLHerne> andythenorth: We need a grf discussion to convince Koala this isn't only the arcane web service channel ;-)
22:29:39  <TrueBrain> they suggest using CloudFlare to use as edge-network / CDN
22:29:44  <FLHerne> Or something
22:29:45  <TrueBrain> but ... they denied us for binaries-only :P
22:29:49  <TrueBrain> I tried that already :D
22:30:05  <andythenorth> FLHerne make screenshots with FIRS 4 Alpha 4 Steeltown :P
22:30:13  <andythenorth> it takes 60 years to connect all chains
22:30:20  <frosch123> TrueBrain: don't they hit their connection limit pretty fast that way?
22:30:36  <TrueBrain> not really; pretty sure they can handle a lot of requests per second :P
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22:30:43  <TrueBrain> it is more that the latency is higher
22:30:52  <TrueBrain> and network interruptions are more noticeable
22:30:59  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That seems excessive
22:31:22  <andythenorth> keeps the game going
22:31:28  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I'll give Steeltown a go when I get time
22:31:36  <andythenorth> it's not for everyone :P
22:31:44  <frosch123> TrueBrain: so, go for b2 first. if it fails, try DO second?
22:31:56  <FLHerne> From my previous quick game, it's not thematically ideal for a trainset
22:32:06  <TrueBrain> sure
22:32:11  <TrueBrain> @calc 0.01 * 4000
22:32:11  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 40
22:32:17  <TrueBrain> would be 40 dollar per month, give or take
22:32:21  <TrueBrain> VPS would be 10 dollar per month
22:32:23  <frosch123> TrueBrain: everything sounds like, you have to try it, to find out what works and doesn't :)
22:32:27  <FLHerne> A bit too sector-specific
22:32:31  <TrueBrain> absolutely :)
22:32:48  * FLHerne thinking maybe a smallish 64^2 map and try to turn it into Scunthorpe by the end :p
22:32:53  <TrueBrain> we tried DO's CDN back in 2019, and it was not great :P
22:33:00  <andythenorth> it's thematically idea for scunthorpe yes
22:33:24  <TrueBrain> okay, I will ask our mister finance to create a B2 account, and I will toy around with it a bit
22:33:31  <andythenorth> I am on 256x512
22:33:36  <frosch123> \o/
22:33:39  <TrueBrain> I think we will upload it to both AWS S3 as B2, that makes other migrations easier
22:33:40  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yeah, but I can't have A4s in Scunthorpe :p
22:33:46  <LordAro> 0AD has approximately 2TB/month bandwidth, if i've maths'd correctly
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22:34:06  <TrueBrain> hmm .. does B2 offer custom domain ...
22:34:09  <FLHerne> They have some pretty big art assets
22:34:11  <LordAro> (windows exe is 700MB)
22:34:40  <TrueBrain> LordAro: and where do they host?
22:34:52  <LordAro> wait, i absolutely have not maths'd correctly, that's for the incomplete month of november :p
22:34:57  <LordAro> TrueBrain: haven't worked that out yet
22:35:17  <TrueBrain> frosch123: meh, seems custom domains have to go via CloudFlare ..
22:35:21  <LordAro> 4.5TB/month
22:35:28  <TrueBrain> which didn't like it when I suggested 4TB per month via their network :P
22:35:32  <frosch123> those graphs say 70% go via torrent
22:35:48  <LordAro> yeah, i was only counting the http downloads
22:36:06  <LordAro> @calc 5627 * 694
22:36:06  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 3905138
22:36:10  <LordAro> ^ in MB
22:36:10  <milek7> TrueBrain: that sort of thing
22:36:12  <TrueBrain> so B2 is not possible without having a weird-ass domain :P
22:36:15  <frosch123> TrueBrain: too much? too little? i never understand cloudflare
22:36:23  <TrueBrain> milek7: cool :)
22:36:34  <TrueBrain> frosch123: they do not appreciate it if you only distribute binaries via them
22:36:43  <TrueBrain> if you do your whole site, it is a bit more okay, but still not really
22:36:52  <TrueBrain> so I asked them: how about 4TB of binaries
22:36:53  <TrueBrain> they said: no
22:37:12  <LordAro> points to a hetzner IP :D
22:37:21  <TrueBrain> I am not really surprised :P
22:37:25  <TrueBrain> it is dirt cheap
22:37:28  <TrueBrain> and ... well .. dirt
22:38:38  <LordAro> this would appear to be their discussion on it
22:39:27  <frosch123> LordAro: they did not switch in 6 years?
22:39:46  <TrueBrain> happy to see their monthly price would be about equal to ours, in total
22:39:58  <LordAro> frosch123: apparently not
22:40:08  <LordAro> though apparently they switched server last year :p
22:40:36  <andythenorth> FLHerne streamlined torpedo cars seems fine
22:41:08  <TrueBrain> frosch123: seems VPSes is by far the easiest way to go
22:41:15  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Do you have those in Horse?
22:41:27  <TrueBrain> but it does require a bit more upkeep
22:41:40  <andythenorth> there's a torpedo car
22:41:46  <andythenorth> and a streamlined engine
22:42:16  <TrueBrain> well, what I can do tomorrow: 1) launch TrueWiki, 2) email AWS asking if there is anything we can do to do get those credits, 3) email CloudFlare what it would cost for them to take us on, 4) figure out what the easiest way would be to use VPSes :P
22:42:22  <frosch123> TrueBrain: what? vps is the easier option? okay, then we have a clear winner :)
22:42:40  <TrueBrain> well, yeah, as we know the DO Spaces can be a bit crappy
22:42:47  <TrueBrain> we have been there for a year, and it had a lot of errors etc
22:42:58  <TrueBrain> B2 requires CloudFlare for custom domain
22:43:01  <andythenorth>
22:43:07  <LordAro> not to mention the ipv6 issues :p
22:43:15  <TrueBrain> and those VPSes ... it is just getting a Debian install
22:43:19  <TrueBrain> running "apt get install nginx"
22:43:25  <TrueBrain> shitting a nginx.conf in there
22:43:33  <TrueBrain> generate an ssh-key
22:43:35  <TrueBrain> and .. "done"
22:43:51  <TrueBrain> well, the ssh-key not on the VPSes, but on AWS, with the public key on those VPSes
22:43:59  <TrueBrain> changing BaNaNaS is more effort, but ... what can you do
22:44:06  <TrueBrain> I always assumed I had to do it some day :P
22:44:23  <TrueBrain> no, I am going to skip 2) in that list above
22:44:32  <frosch123> just not so early :)
22:44:48  <TrueBrain> well, I always expected it to happen next month, as I knew the credits would end :P
22:45:03  <LordAro> TrueBrain: worth doing something with ansible, or not even worth that?
22:45:11  <TrueBrain> was just hoping we could have been done with wiki last month :P Stupid mediawiki :)
22:45:21  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I have considered starting to use Terraform
22:45:29  <frosch123> and yes, i don't think contacting a big company outside the standard workflow helps with anything
22:45:29  <TrueBrain> as I am also a bit done with configuring GitHub etc
22:45:36  <TrueBrain> but ... I would have to learn that
22:45:42  <TrueBrain> so if you know ansible, and can automate that
22:45:44  <TrueBrain> that would be a big win
22:46:10  <LordAro> i can do ansible
22:46:18  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am also done every year asking for money ...
22:46:19  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Nice pic
22:46:36  <TrueBrain> LordAro: well, if you can ansible a nginx deployment on OVH VPSes .. that would for sure help :)
22:46:45  <TrueBrain> means we can redeploy that every N months
22:47:04  <TrueBrain> owh, and letsencrypt
22:47:12  <LordAro> yeah, that's all relatively easy
22:47:31  <TrueBrain> the main hurdle will be that they need to both listen on the same hostname
22:47:38  <TrueBrain> so .., I guess :P
22:47:45  <TrueBrain> they both need a valid certificate for that
22:47:46  <LordAro> can do nice things like good ssh config, unattended-upgrades, etc etc
22:48:12  <TrueBrain> so the wishlist: nginx + letsencrypt, and ssh or rsync for file transfer
22:48:18  <TrueBrain> that is all they need to do :P
22:48:36  <TrueBrain> the last 5 years we had those VPSes ... I kinda rarely updated them, or logged in to them such setups "just work"
22:49:14  <LordAro> well that was easy
22:49:27  <TrueBrain> just know, my experience with ansible is from 5+ years ago
22:49:31  <TrueBrain> so ... I am useless to you :)
22:49:41  <LordAro> it's not changed *much*
22:49:51  <LordAro> they keep renaming everything, but the majority is the same
22:49:53  <TrueBrain> my memory doesn't allow me to keep such information :P
22:50:03  <TrueBrain> and I get the principles .. just .. no clue how to write any role etc
22:51:11  <TrueBrain> hmm, OVH also has S3-like storage, I see now
22:51:19  <TrueBrain> also for roughly 1 eurocent per GB
22:52:10  <milek7> scaleway too
22:52:34  <TrueBrain> I don't know scaleway
22:52:38  <TrueBrain> any good?
22:53:11  <milek7> vps work fine, didn't use that s3-like storage
22:53:17  <TrueBrain> both OVH and scaleway are without CDN
22:53:28  <TrueBrain> (which is not a real surprise)
22:53:33  <TrueBrain> OVH seems to support custom domains
22:53:38  <TrueBrain> might be another option, honestly
22:55:13  <TrueBrain> The feature works correctly with HTTP. However, you will receive a certificate error if you use HTTPS, since we do not have your private certificate. You will still be able to use HTTPS, but you will receive certificate alerts on most recent browsers.
22:55:15  <TrueBrain> well, that is useless
22:55:18  <TrueBrain> neverminnnnddddd
22:55:33  <TrueBrain> owh, LordAro , the nginx needs to be configured for both HTTP and HTTPS
22:55:47  <TrueBrain> as .. OpenTTD client ...... cannot do ... HTTPS :P
22:56:22  <LordAro> not a problem, especially with ansible :p
22:56:25  <LordAro> well, yaml, i guess
22:56:41  <milek7> does it needs https at all?
22:56:59  <TrueBrain> yes, for if/when we are going to do web-downloads again
22:57:03  <LordAro> OTTD will be able to do https *at some point*
22:57:12  <LordAro> probably.
22:57:41  <TrueBrain> lets see .. how did I deploy this on AWS ..
22:57:55  <TrueBrain> owh, yes, we need something special :D
22:57:56  <TrueBrain> I forgot :)
22:58:26  <andythenorth> is bed
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22:58:34  <TrueBrain>
23:02:03  <LordAro> i do believe i can just take this with some minimal editing
23:03:14  <TrueBrain> I believe you can do anything! :D
23:03:17  <LordAro> :D
23:11:11  <TrueBrain> right, send CloudFlare another email
23:11:28  <TrueBrain> I just asked them what it would cost us to get an Enterprise Plan :P I can imagine it being a lot, but if you never ask ........ you never know
23:11:42  <TrueBrain> I will ask our master in chief to get 2 VPSes at OVH tomorrow LordAro
23:11:59  <TrueBrain> after I brought the wiki live, I will see what code-changes are needed :)
23:12:26  <TrueBrain> we got somewhat side-tracked, but frosch123 , do you see any blockers to bring the wiki online?
23:13:18  <frosch123> no :) i procrastinated writing the frontpage/news. when the forums-url-sed grew out of hand :p
23:13:29  <TrueBrain> hahaha :D
23:13:32  <TrueBrain> well, you have tomorrow for that :P
23:13:45  <TrueBrain> we are missing the search bar, but we have to wait for search engines to pick up the new goodies
23:13:51  <TrueBrain> I am pretty happy with the 150 requests/s
23:14:17  <frosch123> still no ngynx, right?
23:14:17  <TrueBrain> and pretty sure we can delay going live for months, and finetune it further and further
23:14:26  <TrueBrain> but .......
23:14:27  <TrueBrain> no nginx, no
23:14:45  <TrueBrain> I would have to load it as a side-car, as I showed with gollum
23:14:48  <TrueBrain> it is a bit annoying to do
23:14:53  <TrueBrain> this seems fine too :P
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23:15:00  <frosch123> yeah, no more delays
23:15:42  <TrueBrain> owh, and if "git" fails for what-ever reason
23:15:47  <TrueBrain> the pod kills itself and reboots
23:15:53  <TrueBrain> I didn't want to deal with "read-only" mode :P
23:16:02  <frosch123> and sentry reports?
23:16:09  <TrueBrain> yes, there will be a sentry report
23:16:10  <TrueBrain> always :D
23:16:14  <frosch123> :)
23:16:23  <TrueBrain> it is my: WAKE UP SOMETHING BROKE, signal
23:16:25  <TrueBrain> I love it
23:16:35  <frosch123> we'll see who digs up skynet
23:16:52  <TrueBrain> the good thing is, with wiki migrated ... I can shut down the MySQL :D
23:17:05  <TrueBrain> next up, email ... we know what to do, we just have to do it
23:17:20  <TrueBrain> and, of course, supybot ... :P
23:17:37  <TrueBrain> after that ... I once a month have to cycle servers for them to receive upgrades .. and every N months cycle secrets ..
23:17:43  <TrueBrain> I am looking forward to that moment
23:18:04  <TrueBrain> everything managed \o/ \o/
23:18:22  <TrueBrain> might cost 40 euro a month more ... pretty sure my time is worth more :D >:D
23:19:00  <frosch123> i think that's the whole business plan of aws and friends :)
23:19:15  <TrueBrain> and it really is totally worth it
23:19:17  <TrueBrain> it really is
23:19:28  <TrueBrain> the security of is now 1000x better than it was
23:19:51  <milek7> I still think all that cloud is ridiculously overpriced..
23:20:21  <TrueBrain> it really isn't; but you have to look beyond the managed vs unmanaged
23:20:34  <TrueBrain> well, the bandwidth price is overpriced, that is very true
23:20:40  <TrueBrain> but it will go down over time :)
23:21:07  <TrueBrain> I remember 1 mbit/s was costing 15 euro a month, on a 95% rating
23:21:17  <TrueBrain> that is 300GB for 15 euro, give or take
23:21:22  <TrueBrain> @calc 15 / 300
23:21:22  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.05
23:21:31  <TrueBrain> it is now at 0.09 :D
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23:22:18  <LordAro> TrueBrain: that should be a good start
23:23:09  <TrueBrain> it means very little to me :P
23:23:10  <TrueBrain> but nice :D
23:23:33  <TrueBrain> do consider how letsencrypt is going to verify the domain
23:23:39  <TrueBrain> there will be 2 VPSes on the same hostname
23:23:43  <TrueBrain> round-robin
23:24:10  <TrueBrain> so http-validation can easily fail
23:24:19  <TrueBrain> DNS validation is an option, no clue how that works in ansible
23:24:22  <LordAro> well, i'm trusting the example i copied it from, but geerlingguy's stuff tends to be pretty sound - he writes a decent percentage of all ansible 'recipies'
23:24:27  <LordAro> will investigate
23:24:37  <TrueBrain> it is a bit rare, what I would like
23:24:39  <TrueBrain> honestly :)
23:24:53  <TrueBrain> we can, if that is easier, also use and
23:25:06  <TrueBrain> and I can make the redirector we have in front of it pick one at random
23:25:59  <TrueBrain> with 2 different domains, you can use the letsencrypt http validation
23:26:03  <TrueBrain> which I think your snippet uses
23:26:29  <TrueBrain> (as that is default for certbot)
23:28:02  <LordAro> i think so, yeah
23:28:12  <TrueBrain>
23:28:21  <TrueBrain> we would only need to change that to pick one from a list, basically
23:28:45  <TrueBrain> pretty trivial change
23:28:51  <TrueBrain> so okay, lets do that instead :)
23:28:54  <LordAro> round robin should still be fine, i think
23:28:59  <LordAro> but it is a bit nasty :p
23:29:13  <LordAro> (round robin DNS itself)
23:29:26  <TrueBrain> on all OSes except Windows it is fine :P
23:29:31  <TrueBrain> but I guess you have a point there
23:29:51  <TrueBrain> how to upload files there .. hmm ... that needs some more consideration ..
23:30:06  <TrueBrain> we can either have the API upload it there
23:30:13  <TrueBrain> or we can have a simple script sync every N minutes
23:30:35  <frosch123> then you have to track sync status, or people get a lot 404
23:30:50  <TrueBrain> true
23:30:54  <TrueBrain>
23:30:58  <TrueBrain> storage backends are very simple
23:31:31  <TrueBrain> if I can make it so we can daisy-chain them
23:31:36  <TrueBrain> it becomes a configuration problem
23:31:39  <milek7> maybe nginx could rewrite 404 to some php/something script, that fetches it from s3?
23:31:40  <frosch123> so just a subprocess("scp")?
23:31:40  <TrueBrain> which is a nice problem to have :)
23:31:56  <TrueBrain> milek7: I did that for a while, that is not a bad idea honestly
23:32:19  <TrueBrain> where is my nginx config for that ...
23:33:28  <TrueBrain>
23:33:34  <TrueBrain> so instead of copying files there, it is a caching proxy
23:33:43  <TrueBrain> means it is always up-to-date
23:33:49  <TrueBrain> doesn't require copying files
23:33:56  <TrueBrain> everything we have can stay the same
23:34:12  <TrueBrain> just the "60m" should be like ..... A LOT
23:34:18  <TrueBrain> @calc 60 * 24 * 30
23:34:18  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 43200
23:34:19  <TrueBrain> or something
23:34:38  <TrueBrain> line 12 and 30 .. 39 are important
23:34:43  <TrueBrain> rest is not needed for this
23:34:58  <TrueBrain> I really like that ... makes it really simple to implement
23:35:06  <TrueBrain> no clue why I forgot about this :D
23:37:50  <TrueBrain> LordAro / frosch123 : good idea / bad idea? :)
23:39:17  <frosch123> does that also work for the url rewrite magic?
23:39:44  <TrueBrain> yes
23:39:57  <TrueBrain> line 30 will read: proxy_pass;
23:39:58  <TrueBrain> basically
23:40:03  <TrueBrain> using the AWS infrastructure
23:40:06  <frosch123> then it sounds cool :)
23:40:17  <TrueBrain> in other words: it would be a poor-mans CloudFlare solution
23:40:27  <LordAro> i was halfway through working out how to make nginx do the url rewriting :p
23:40:36  <TrueBrain> sorry bubba :)
23:40:57  <LordAro> i think i got it anyway
23:41:14  <TrueBrain> :D
23:42:01  <TrueBrain> well, it sounds like this VPS solution uncomplicated itself over the evening :D Nice
23:42:32  <TrueBrain> happy DigitalOcean was being a twat with "no IPv6 for Spaces", and I once already figured out how to do caching nginx :P
23:43:02  <TrueBrain> there is a 40GB SSD in those VPSes
23:43:05  <TrueBrain> so that is PLENTY of storage
23:43:06  <milek7> maybe I'm just having needlessy evil thoughts... but that rewrite can be abused somewhat
23:43:19  <milek7> fetch random filenames to clog cache
23:43:47  <TrueBrain> you mean the regex LordAro showed, or my proxy_pass?
23:44:19  <milek7> that proxy_pass, ie. fetch random visible names that are fetching same file over and over
23:44:29  <TrueBrain> yup
23:44:32  <TrueBrain> if you want to hurt us, you can :)
23:45:18  <TrueBrain> but if you like, we can rewrite the URL to not include that for the caching
23:45:31  <TrueBrain> meaning LordAro's work is not in vain :P
23:45:47  <TrueBrain> (rewrite the URL to not have the "/filename.tar.gz" at the end and proxy-pass that)
23:46:27  <TrueBrain> not completely sure what the key is for the cache entry
23:46:36  <TrueBrain> but that can be found out :D
23:48:31  <TrueBrain> locations of the VPSes will be Roubaix and Frankfurt, I think
23:48:40  <TrueBrain> Roubaix as it is in the core of OVH, so good connectivity
23:48:50  <TrueBrain> and Frankfurt to have a fallback somewhat further away
23:49:05  <TrueBrain> I don't see a need to have one outside of Europe
23:50:42  <frosch123> frankfurt is de-cix
23:52:14  <TrueBrain> yeah, and if I remember OVH infrastructure good enough, that is also pretty connected :D
23:52:26  <frosch123> but if i understand you well, we can just add and remove vps as needed. balancer needs to know which cdn-1..cdn-N exist, and then they will sync themself
23:53:13  <TrueBrain> yup
23:53:30  <TrueBrain> so that makes the question .. how is the balancer going to detect that, or are we going to hardcode it
23:53:48  <frosch123> well, depends whether it shall ping them
23:53:55  <frosch123> and drop them
23:53:56  <TrueBrain> or be pinged
23:54:01  <TrueBrain> as that is easier
23:54:10  <TrueBrain> that they ping the balancer, telling: I AM HEREEEEEEEE
23:54:21  <frosch123> oh yeah, that sounds cool. vps register at it via ping :)
23:54:22  <TrueBrain> and if that ping is away for N minutes
23:54:34  <frosch123> so balancer does not need to know them at all
23:54:34  <TrueBrain> it knows: it is goneeeeeee
23:54:39  <TrueBrain> not hardcoded
23:55:17  <TrueBrain> does require something on those VPSes to do the ping
23:55:24  <TrueBrain> (a simple cron-curl would be fine)
23:55:38  <frosch123> and some secret :)
23:55:48  <TrueBrain> ghehe :) Yes, some secret indeed :)
23:56:17  <TrueBrain> within AWS I take care of these things via a private DNS
23:56:30  <TrueBrain> the services register a DNS entry there, which other parts pick up
23:56:40  <TrueBrain> but ... we don't have a shared DNS, I guess
23:56:44  <frosch123> can sentry report when a ping is lost and comes back?
23:56:54  <TrueBrain> Sentry can do alerts, so yes
23:56:57  <TrueBrain> never used that
23:57:28  <TrueBrain> Metric Alerts, the interface mention
23:57:33  <TrueBrain> so .. I guess .. it can do metrics :D
23:57:35  <frosch123> some message when the balancer adds or removes a mirror
23:58:00  <TrueBrain>
23:59:16  <frosch123> hmm, it's 1am again
23:59:24  <TrueBrain> yeah, time to get some shut-eye
23:59:30  <frosch123> night :)
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