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00:00:12 <frosch123> night 00:00:17 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 00:11:27 <TrueBrain> haha, it was memory .... and one surprising one .. "git clone" requires 230MB of RAM to clone that repo :D 00:11:29 <TrueBrain> lolzzz 00:23:45 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 00:34:02 *** arikover has quit IRC 00:51:06 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:19:24 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 02:25:01 *** Tirili has quit IRC 03:32:56 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd 03:39:42 *** Flygon has quit IRC 03:40:00 *** Lejving_ has quit IRC 03:40:50 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 03:44:10 *** debdog has quit IRC 04:00:51 *** heffer has quit IRC 04:32:12 *** glx has quit IRC 05:44:21 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:05:28 *** Laedek_ has quit IRC 06:15:42 *** longtomjr has joined #openttd 06:39:59 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 07:01:07 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 07:11:06 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:22:35 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 09:18:52 *** DorpsGek_III has quit IRC 09:42:39 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 09:45:02 <orudge> TrueBrain: Has DorpsGek gone mad? 4198 e-mails (GitHub notifications) from it overnight... 09:46:37 <TrueBrain> wuth? 09:46:38 <orudge> https://github.com/OpenTTD/team/issues/82 <-- and it's still going 09:47:06 <TrueBrain> I have NO idea what happened there and why it was allowed :( 09:47:07 <TrueBrain> so sorry .... 09:48:05 <TrueBrain> that GitHub didn't rate limit that ... 09:48:49 <TrueBrain> killed it for now 09:49:15 <TrueBrain> don't know why you got 4198 emails, it should be 2100 :P 09:49:28 <orudge> well 09:49:32 <orudge> maybe I miscounted 09:49:42 <orudge> I was going on the "order received" column in Thunderbird :D 09:49:42 <TrueBrain> :P :P :P 09:49:45 <LordAro> oh my 09:51:02 *** DorpsGek_III has joined #openttd 09:51:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain commented on issue #82: [pt_BR] Translator access request https://git.io/JkmsW 09:51:19 <TrueBrain> really cannot believe GitHub doesn't spam-protect this 09:52:53 <SpComb> did it trigger a new inspection of the issue description and comment for every github hook comment notification? :P 09:52:54 <TrueBrain> but ... do you think he got the message? :P :P :P 09:53:31 <LordAro> i didn't realise it actually bothered to check the entire template 09:53:42 <TrueBrain> up to the marker 09:53:50 <TrueBrain> which is stated pretty clearly around the markers 09:53:50 <LordAro> surely just searching for `<!-- translator: <lang> -->` would actually be enough? 09:54:14 <TrueBrain> once again, maybe better to ask why we did it this way, than the start with a judgement ;) 09:54:31 <TrueBrain> but we wanted to prevent people changing the language in the text, meaning DorpsGek would add people to other languages than the text describes 09:54:50 <TrueBrain> so it validates up to the <!-- Please do not edit the above message. Do feel free to add a personal note after this line. --> 09:54:55 <TrueBrain> I mean, it is not that the marker isn't clear :P 09:55:11 <TrueBrain> and he added above the marker .. like .. RIGHT above it 09:55:12 <LordAro> oh for sure 09:55:37 <TrueBrain> so I don't blame DorpsGek for shutting this down, as in: learn to read 09:55:42 <TrueBrain> but ... it shouldn't do that 2100 times :D 09:57:39 <LordAro> i'm surprised we managed to miss testing the "has modified template" case 09:58:01 <TrueBrain> I did test it, that is the worst part 09:58:12 <LordAro> but yeah, i see it in the code - gets a new comment and validates the main post 09:58:18 <LordAro> regardless of who sent the last comment :p 09:58:32 <TrueBrain> yup .. and it should only check on issue, not on comment 09:58:59 <LordAro> well... maybe? they could change it between issue & comment 09:59:10 <LordAro> which presumably is what you were trying to protect against 09:59:15 <TrueBrain> but there is no trigger on edits 09:59:21 <TrueBrain> hmm, no, I get what you mean 09:59:30 <TrueBrain> well, I was mostly trying to protect against jokers doing that while creating the ticket 09:59:34 <TrueBrain> did not consider the editing scenario 09:59:55 <TrueBrain> okay, so the main fix is simply: do not trigger if DorpsGek did it 10:00:16 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 10:00:28 <LordAro> aye 10:01:00 <TrueBrain> can you put an if on a job .. 10:01:06 <TrueBrain> seems you can 10:01:23 <LordAro> wouldn't be much harder to modify the python itself? 10:01:26 <LordAro> might be cleaner 10:02:08 <LordAro> check for membership of bots 10:02:13 <LordAro> or whatever the group name is 10:02:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain opened pull request #83: Prevent skynet https://git.io/JkYIz 10:02:52 <TrueBrain> I was thinking about this ^^ ? 10:04:44 <LordAro> i was thinking about `if is_part_of_team(login, "it-s-a-bot-s-world"): return` 10:04:53 <LordAro> yes, that's apparently the group's name :p 10:05:02 <TrueBrain> why do it in Python if you can already do it in the workflow? 10:05:17 <TrueBrain> I don't see the benefit of it? (honest question) 10:06:17 <LordAro> well the workflow is technically separate from the code 10:06:55 <TrueBrain> yes .. and the workflow is the reason it is done under DorpsGek (as he feeds his token) 10:07:02 <TrueBrain> so he knows to ignore DorpsGek 10:07:14 <TrueBrain> in the code, it can be a bit odd .. as what-ever-else executes the code 10:07:17 <TrueBrain> doesn't have to be a bot, or in the group 10:07:31 <TrueBrain> so who to ignore is a bit harder, if you want to do it cleanly 10:07:32 <LordAro> yes, that's true 10:07:35 <TrueBrain> would mean you first hav eto request who you are 10:07:38 <TrueBrain> and ignore that person 10:07:45 <TrueBrain> which is also a fine route to go, but .. ugh, lot of code :P 10:08:12 <LordAro> yeah that's fine 10:08:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro approved pull request #83: Prevent skynet https://git.io/JkYIp 10:08:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain merged pull request #83: Prevent skynet https://git.io/JkYIz 10:08:58 <TrueBrain> bit untested, but I believe in documentation 10:09:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain opened issue #84: [nl_NL] Translator access request https://git.io/JkYLf 10:09:56 <LordAro> just as well i unwatched the team repo a few days ago :p 10:10:08 <TrueBrain> I am happy orudge reported this :) 10:10:16 <TrueBrain> pretty sure the user itself wouldn't have had a real way to report it :P 10:10:30 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/team/runs/1395223668?check_suite_focus=true 10:10:32 <TrueBrain> owh yeah 10:10:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro commented on issue #81: [de_DE] Translator access request https://git.io/JkqNI 10:10:59 <TrueBrain> euhm ... why didn't it see that I changed the topic ... lol 10:11:53 <TrueBrain> huh .... I don't get that :P 10:11:53 <LordAro> well i guess it's kind of an improvement 10:12:26 <TrueBrain> but how did this happen code-wise? 10:13:34 <TrueBrain> owh, I see I missed another "return" 10:13:46 <TrueBrain> but that is not the cause 10:14:09 <TrueBrain> not often that I am like: huh? 10:14:11 <TrueBrain> but I am like: huh? 10:16:08 <TrueBrain> I mean: wuth? :) 10:17:36 <longtomjr> Lol 10:17:58 <TrueBrain> I am just going to rerun the task 10:18:01 <TrueBrain> that much I cannot believ ethis 10:18:43 <longtomjr> Skynet! 10:25:07 <TrueBrain> ah, no, the code does allow changes before that line too 10:25:20 <TrueBrain> we are a bit more forgiven 10:26:19 <TrueBrain> he changed text 10:26:22 <TrueBrain> like ... 10:26:24 <TrueBrain> really changed a line 10:26:34 <TrueBrain> I would like to ask for access to help translating OpenTTD 10:26:35 <TrueBrain> vs 10:26:40 <TrueBrain> I would like to ask for access to help to translate OpenTTD 10:26:55 <TrueBrain> (first is what the template defines, second is what he changed it into) 10:27:04 <TrueBrain> that is why it got refused; not so much because of the text he added 10:27:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain closed issue #84: [nl_NL] Translator access request https://git.io/JkYLf 10:27:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain opened issue #85: [nl_NL] Translator access request https://git.io/JkYt9 10:28:30 <LordAro> what an odd sort of change 10:28:45 <TrueBrain> yeah .... 10:29:06 <TrueBrain> okay, no more SkyNet, I now proved it! 10:29:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain opened pull request #86: Fix: one more place where it didn't return a tuple where was expected https://git.io/JkYqT 10:29:15 <TrueBrain> and one more fix :D 10:29:39 <TrueBrain> took me a long time to find what he changed btw, it is rather subtle 10:30:11 <TrueBrain> and it is not like an old text of ours 10:30:17 <TrueBrain> so I can only deduce it was really him that changed it 10:30:29 <TrueBrain> overly-pedantic? Not sure .. 10:30:44 <TrueBrain> but okay, the code also allows you to add a line just before the <!-- marker, which clearly helps as people do not really read :) 10:30:47 <TrueBrain> which is fine by me, honestly :) 10:34:13 <TrueBrain> awh, I cannot self-approve that PR :P 11:01:36 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm now at my work computer, and can't be bothered to get the authenticator app open to log in :p 11:02:01 <TrueBrain> pffft 11:02:08 <TrueBrain> well, you do you! :P 11:02:13 <TrueBrain> but I expect a +1 tonight :D 11:20:15 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 11:25:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 approved pull request #86: Fix: one more place where it didn't return a tuple where was expected https://git.io/JkYsi 11:25:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain merged pull request #86: Fix: one more place where it didn't return a tuple where was expected https://git.io/JkYqT 11:30:28 <TrueBrain> I really do not understand HTTP Cache Control, it seems :P 11:32:40 <TrueBrain> annoying, after login you get the cached main page, which doesn't show "edit" yet :P 11:42:43 <frosch123> sounds like taxes. if you want to edit this page, you have to edit another one first 11:43:38 <TrueBrain> also odd, in aiohttp, the middleware sees response code 200, but a 304 is going out :P 11:43:46 <TrueBrain> the last-modified detection is done after the middleware :D 11:44:42 * frosch123 learns about 304 11:53:30 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 11:53:43 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 12:07:04 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 12:54:42 <TrueBrain> I don't get it ... I tell browsers to cache files for 5 minutes, but it keeps revalidating ... 12:55:26 <TrueBrain> ah, firefox has issues with no-cache="Set-Cookie" 12:55:29 <TrueBrain> fine .. I don't need it anyway 13:13:28 *** glx has joined #openttd 13:13:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 13:25:59 <TrueBrain> okay, think I figured it out ... 13:26:05 <TrueBrain> the /uploads and /static are cached for 5 minutes 13:26:16 <TrueBrain> and other pages return when they were last rendered (read: modified) 13:26:17 <andythenorth> lunch! 13:26:27 <TrueBrain> meaning 304s are returned if the browser has the same page already in cache 13:27:18 <TrueBrain> that should improve performance a bit .. I hope 13:27:20 <TrueBrain> time to deploy :D 13:28:36 <TrueBrain> hmm, only if a new translation of a page is added, it won't show up for browsers that have the file in cache, I guess 13:35:01 <TrueBrain> there we go .. that was easy to solve :D 13:37:32 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Hey, at least you didn't do it to paying customers like we did a few years ago 13:38:02 <TrueBrain> invalidate caching wrong? 13:38:14 <FLHerne> Pretty much, yes 13:38:31 <TrueBrain> it is hard to get right 13:38:36 <TrueBrain> and the reason I in general try to avoid it 13:38:40 <FLHerne> There was a job that ran every n minutes and batch-sent all pending emails, then flagged them as 'sent' in the database 13:39:10 <FLHerne> Needless to say, the last bit wasn't working quite right :-/ 13:39:23 <TrueBrain> oef ... 13:40:09 <TrueBrain> my favorite is still that I executed a command that does some heavy I/O operations .. we did that all the time .. also on production servers, as the job was scheduled with ionice and everything .. well .. it brought the production server to a halt :P 13:40:27 <TrueBrain> as in .. SSH was not responding correctly :P 13:40:39 <TrueBrain> ionice is not always as nice as you might think :D 13:41:13 <TrueBrain> on most production-servers this data was on their own disk .. except one ... always one ... :P 13:42:06 <TrueBrain> why are people complaining that the "unlimited" free Google Photos storage is now becoming a 15GB free storage? 13:42:10 <TrueBrain> like ... it is still A LOT of storage 13:42:21 <TrueBrain> if you take that many photos ... fucking pay for it 13:42:49 <FLHerne> Yeah, that's what I thought 13:43:25 <FLHerne> I can understand the anger at photobucket/flickr/whatever where they deleted or hid *existing* photos 13:43:40 <FLHerne> That breaks a ton of old forum posts 13:44:05 <TrueBrain> the 15GB only starts to count from next year somewhere .. which is very generous tbfh 13:44:09 <TrueBrain> it is not like they back-count 13:44:11 <FLHerne> But Google are explicitly only limiting new uploads, to a pretty high cap, so what's the problem? 13:44:23 <TrueBrain> "but I upload more than 15GB a month", I guess 13:44:55 <FLHerne> Then buy your own damn NFS box :p 13:45:46 <TrueBrain> seems people are just complaining for the fact of complaining 13:45:53 <frosch123> hmm, turns out i sometimes start truewiki with data in /data, and sometimes in /code/data. both worked? 13:46:55 <TrueBrain> depends on your parameter :P 13:47:05 <TrueBrain> by default it does ./data, workdir is /code in the Docker 13:47:25 <TrueBrain> but the default parameters of the Dockerfile are to use /data 13:47:44 <TrueBrain> so it depends if you are overwriting the default parameters :D 13:48:38 <TrueBrain> but if you use the "github" storage driver, it all doesn't matter .. as it makes sure it is "master" on startup 13:48:43 <frosch123> ok, i did not set --storage-folder when checking 13:48:45 <TrueBrain> only the "local" and "git" storage driver don't :P 13:49:53 <TrueBrain> I abused that fact about the github driver a lot, as .. what-ever I comitted, it was gone next startup :) 13:50:04 <TrueBrain> also something to be careful with, of course :D 13:50:26 <frosch123> i only use "local" 13:51:00 <TrueBrain> that is fine for development, indeed :) 13:51:07 <TrueBrain> doesn't make commits on save, etc 13:51:23 <TrueBrain> doesn't even keep history :P 13:52:28 <TrueBrain> https://wiki-new.openttd.org/en/ <- should now be a lot quicker to navigate around etc 13:54:46 <TrueBrain> right, time to stress-test it a bit I guess .. see how many request/s it can do 13:56:20 <TrueBrain> Requests per second: 15.71 [#/sec] (mean) 13:56:20 <TrueBrain> Time per request: 6364.901 [ms] (mean) 13:56:23 <TrueBrain> I have had better :P 13:58:08 <TrueBrain> " orudge authored and None committed 31 seconds ago" <- "and None" .. lol .. that .. feels like a bug :D 14:02:59 <TrueBrain> yeah, 15 requests/sec it can handle without becoming laggy .. after that, it starts to slow down by a lot :P 14:03:26 <TrueBrain> deploying fix for the None :) 14:07:24 <TrueBrain> okay, mediawiki is about equal in speed 14:14:25 <TrueBrain> and mediawiki caches the page ... I do not :P Lol 14:14:36 <TrueBrain> sometimes you realise the stupidity of the world 14:15:48 <TrueBrain> but okay, one could reduce from this, that if mediawiki is surviving, so should the new site 14:17:07 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/wiki-data/commit/71e47aabfffd71058c4ead73f583c6f91825fa6e <- best fix EVAH 14:20:28 <LordAro> :D 14:22:19 <frosch123> https://www.tt-forums.net/index.php?c=20 <- anyone knows what parameter "c" meant in older phpbb versions? 14:26:35 <LordAro> comment number? 14:29:46 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 14:50:23 <TrueBrain> frosch123: maybe orudge does 14:50:33 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I have a crazy idea to improve speed with little effort ... goes to try 14:53:08 <frosch123> going from where it is linked, it means nothing :) 14:54:04 <frosch123> but phpbb accumulated a lot of different urls over the years, so i need plenty of regexes :) 14:55:31 <TrueBrain> ghehe .. yup ... 14:58:06 <TrueBrain> okay .. crazy idea .. what if I cache the rendered HTML on disk 14:58:17 <TrueBrain> because of the cache stuff I did, I already invalidate that at the right moment 14:59:08 <TrueBrain> disk-space plenty 14:59:37 <andythenorth> that is a known technique 15:01:16 <TrueBrain> how much disk space would that take, worst case ... lets find out 15:03:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #8339: [Game-play] Stopped vehicles started after reloading network game https://git.io/JkTYo 15:12:19 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 15:14:13 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 15:15:51 <TrueBrain> frosch123: you forgot 1 * page, I think :) 15:15:52 <TrueBrain> [[en/Archive/Community/Users/Red*Star]] 15:15:53 <TrueBrain> :D 15:16:08 <TrueBrain> that page cannot be opened :P 15:20:48 <TrueBrain> everything rendered is < 150MB on disk 15:20:48 <TrueBrain> lol 15:20:53 <frosch123> so a testcase for the rename script :) 15:30:01 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/TrueBrain/TrueWiki/pull/81 <- guess that would do the trick 15:30:06 <TrueBrain> good idea / bad idea? I dunno .. 15:30:09 <TrueBrain> guess we will find out 15:30:13 <TrueBrain> well, later tonight; first some dinner 15:31:28 *** heffer has joined #openttd 15:37:06 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 15:37:26 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 15:50:34 *** Flygon_ has quit IRC 15:59:36 *** ask6155 has joined #openttd 15:59:48 <ask6155> hello 16:00:06 <ask6155> can someone tell me how newGRFs work? 16:00:23 <frosch123> as user? as developer? 16:00:29 <ask6155> oh 16:00:32 <ask6155> as a user 16:00:50 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF <- see here 16:01:55 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 16:04:45 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:05:43 <orudge> frosch123: I suspect category, as in forum category 16:06:24 <ask6155> I have some doubts... if I get the PoTA GRF... it is a landscape... what does it do? 16:08:46 <frosch123> after you enabled it in main menu, a new game will look like this https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=177827 16:09:18 <ask6155> ooooooh 16:10:17 <ask6155> also there are town name grfs... how do they work? I installed one and it doesn't show up in the settings list 16:11:04 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 16:11:16 <ask6155> wait no no I does show. It's just hard to see 16:11:21 <ask6155> *spot 16:11:30 <frosch123> yeah, they are special, you need to add them both to newgrf settings, and then select them in game setting 16:11:31 <FLHerne> ask6155: It should show up, assuming you've enabled it and clicked 'apply' 16:12:44 <FLHerne> I wrote this years ago, it's still pretty much true https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=64713 16:13:12 <FLHerne> The only big newgrf capability since then is roadtypes, I think 16:13:32 <ask6155> one of the few 19 year old documentations I'm reading 16:13:51 <FLHerne> Hey, that one's only seven years old :p 16:14:26 <FLHerne> Anyway, the answer is download stuff that looks interesting, see whether you like the effects :p 16:14:46 <ask6155> oh I'm stupid 16:14:53 <ask6155> hehe 16:16:50 <FLHerne> And the big list on the wiki is kept fairly up-to-date by kamnet et al https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_List 16:17:27 <FLHerne> (not all grfs are available through the online content downloader, for historical and other reasons) 16:18:15 <FLHerne> Another suggestion: if you look at the screenshots subforum, there are often lists of what people are using, and then you can see what it looks like 16:19:30 <ask6155> can you give me a link to that please? 16:20:05 <FLHerne> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=47 16:23:20 <ask6155> thanks! 16:26:55 <FLHerne> My old one (UK-ish) is https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=58712 , and the grf list was approximately https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=164894 16:27:10 <FLHerne> I should find time to do screenshots again, it was fun 16:27:15 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 16:27:33 <ask6155> openMSX is supposed to play music right? 16:27:43 <ask6155> I don't hear anything 16:27:46 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 16:29:50 <FLHerne> Have you selected it under 'base music set' in Game Options? 16:30:08 <FLHerne> There's also a volume control in the toolbar 16:33:48 <andythenorth> FLHerne I can't persuade you to a Steeltown screenshot series? :P 16:34:14 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 17:01:09 <ask6155> When I goto it and press play it just shows the names of the songs 17:01:19 <ask6155> one by one very fast 17:01:25 <ask6155> it doesn't play any 17:01:59 <longtomjr> on what operating system are you? 17:02:36 *** ask6155 has quit IRC 17:09:33 <LordAro> that's a classic "doesn't have fluidsynth/timidity installed 17:09:37 <LordAro> /configured 17:09:52 <longtomjr> yep, that is what I though as well 17:46:32 * andythenorth ships FIRS 4 Alpha 4 17:46:37 <andythenorth> FIRS is such a big beast 17:52:10 *** otetede has joined #openttd 17:57:22 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 18:09:45 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 18:13:18 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 18:36:02 *** Lejving has joined #openttd 18:37:21 <frosch123> TrueBrain: did you want to make the skynet victim a translator? or were they scared off? 18:37:39 <Wolf01> Wut? 18:38:25 <frosch123> Wolf01: skynet escaped from tb's cellar 18:38:33 <frosch123> had to catch it 18:38:38 <Wolf01> Oh man 18:39:53 <frosch123> TrueBrain: well, i guess they wouldn't notice their invitation mail anyway :) 18:43:53 <Wolf01> Hmmmm, the new features for F 1.1 are really interesting 19:23:43 *** otetede has quit IRC 19:34:58 <andythenorth> so for Horse, a parameter to choose how wagons randomise colours 19:35:20 <andythenorth> and one of the parameter options is 'choose random scheme per train' 19:35:23 <andythenorth> :P 19:37:14 <Wolf01> Preview on train whack? 19:39:19 *** longtomjr has quit IRC 19:41:05 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 19:43:02 <andythenorth> unsupported on train whack :P 19:43:15 <Wolf01> Support it :P 19:49:02 <andythenorth> send patches :P 19:57:15 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 20:36:23 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 20:36:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 20:43:13 *** tokai has quit IRC 20:52:17 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 20:54:47 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 20:58:05 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I wanted to wait for him to make a new ticket, this time unaltered 20:58:13 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 20:58:17 <TrueBrain> honestly, if you cannot follow these simple instructions ... not sure how that would end with translating :P :P :P 20:58:53 <frosch123> we have >20% failed invites now :) 21:00:02 <TrueBrain> hmm .. how does a programmable LED strip work ... 21:00:07 <TrueBrain> I need to prepare for xmas :P 21:01:12 <frosch123> with raspi? 21:03:13 <TrueBrain> esp8266 21:03:16 <TrueBrain> if possible 21:03:28 <TrueBrain> seems WLED application takes care of that 21:05:11 <TrueBrain> WS2812B leds, I guess ... 21:13:39 <TrueBrain> damn, those things need huge power supplies :P Haha :D 21:14:58 <frosch123> what? did you get more leds than wiki commits? 21:18:04 <frosch123> a normal led has like 2mW, doesn't it? 21:19:19 <TrueBrain> most WS2812B seem to be 0.7W per LED 21:19:27 <TrueBrain> there are like 60 in a meter, if you want something nice 21:19:29 <TrueBrain> at 5V 21:19:35 <TrueBrain> so 5 meter ... 21:19:45 <TrueBrain> @calc 0.7 * 60 / 5 21:19:45 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 8.4 21:19:48 <TrueBrain> 8A 21:20:05 <frosch123> 0.7W led .o 21:20:32 <TrueBrain> well, it is not 1 LED most likely, I would guess, given they are RGBW 21:20:44 <TrueBrain> and there is an IC in there as you can control them all individually 21:20:44 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: With 40W still less than your typical incandescent light. 21:21:14 <TrueBrain> "less", what are you measuring? 21:21:34 <TrueBrain> less luminescence? 21:21:55 <michi_cc> Less power use. 21:22:09 <TrueBrain> well, yes, but I don't really have a 5V 40W, I think 21:22:14 <TrueBrain> most are 5V 10W 21:22:22 <frosch123> i thought you wanted some pretty lights, now you light a whole room :) 21:23:07 <TrueBrain> well, yes, xmas is coming :D 21:23:32 <TrueBrain> but okay, it also requires a powersupply .. the only thing I have that can handle that is my Apple chargers :P 21:23:40 <TrueBrain> (those are 61W) 21:23:41 <frosch123> i'll watch out for a bright colourful star on the horizon 21:23:52 <TrueBrain> in better news: 21:23:53 <TrueBrain> Requests per second: 154.31 [#/sec] (mean) 21:23:53 <TrueBrain> Time per request: 648.028 [ms] (mean) 21:23:59 <TrueBrain> pages are now cached on disk after first load 21:24:12 <TrueBrain> it is 10 times as fast now :D 21:24:15 <TrueBrain> we should be fine :P 21:24:40 <frosch123> that's 100 requests in parallel? 21:25:22 <TrueBrain> that was "ab -n 1000 -c 100 https://wiki-new.openttd.org/en/" 21:26:05 <TrueBrain> 15ms to serve a page :D 21:26:19 <frosch123> :) 21:26:42 <frosch123> at least some ponies 21:26:47 <TrueBrain> cache invalidation should work, at least, I think I found all the places to do so 21:26:53 <frosch123> we got denied the other pony 21:26:57 <TrueBrain> and this is still a single instance .. I can always scale up :P 21:27:06 <TrueBrain> who denied ponies?! :( 21:27:12 <frosch123> aws did 21:28:07 <TrueBrain> also with NO context what-so-ever 21:28:08 <TrueBrain> lol 21:29:10 <TrueBrain> meh ... means I have to take care of the (insanely high) bill on AWS in the next 6 weeks .. that will be fine :) 21:29:19 <TrueBrain> too bad; I was hoping they would grant us another year 21:29:23 <andythenorth> do we need a bailout? 21:29:34 <TrueBrain> but it is really really unclear on what they judge applications 21:29:55 <andythenorth> random() 21:30:09 <TrueBrain> it might be a one-year thing .. I don't know :P 21:31:28 <frosch123> you mean just bait? :p 21:32:49 <TrueBrain> hmm, no, there is no such rule, it seems 21:32:52 <TrueBrain> dunno .. 21:32:57 * andythenorth watching TV 21:32:59 <andythenorth> TV is weird 21:33:07 <TrueBrain> Assuming that they meet the basic eligibility requirements above, we will be examining applications on the basis of their relevance to AWS and its customers. The Amazon Leadership Principles will be used as the guiding light to select the projects. 21:33:09 <TrueBrain> is all it says 21:33:26 <TrueBrain> wouldn't know why one year it is, the other year it isn't eligible .. shrug 21:33:44 <frosch123> maybe we got a fanboy last year :) 21:33:48 <TrueBrain> but 6000 euro a year is a bit much for us, so I guess we have to rent 2 OVH VPSes to handle most of the bandwidth :) 21:34:00 <TrueBrain> (read: zBase and abase) 21:34:05 <frosch123> and this year someone who was denied a daylength pony 21:34:30 <TrueBrain> I don't know if any of you feels up to it to click that "email" link and ask them if there is anything we can do 21:35:21 <TrueBrain> we could also stop hosting abase and zBase btw :P 21:35:24 <TrueBrain> also a valid solution to the problem 21:35:40 <andythenorth> charge download fee 21:36:37 <frosch123> so, we keep the containers, but need a custom cdn for binaries/bananas? 21:37:05 <TrueBrain> bandwidth is 90% of our bill :) 21:37:15 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:37:51 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 21:38:05 <TrueBrain> I am really curious why it is denied ... maybe it is something silly like wrong account ID .. shrug :P 21:38:06 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 21:38:11 <TrueBrain> I might feel like emailing tomorrow 21:38:46 <frosch123> how many TB/month did we have? 21:39:02 <TrueBrain> let me get the data for you .. 21:39:28 <frosch123> just a rough guess is enough? 21:39:58 <TrueBrain> nah, I want to know for sure what it all is 21:40:10 <TrueBrain> so, daily we pay 18 dollar atm, of which 14 is in CloudFront 21:40:54 <TrueBrain> the remaining 4 dollar can be cut down a bit if we don't run on on-demand EC2 (I was just too lazy to change that, honestly) 21:42:45 <TrueBrain> I am now looking for the CloudFront bill overview, but I cannot find it :D 21:42:51 <TrueBrain> I always get lost :P 21:43:23 <TrueBrain> ah, there we go 21:43:43 <TrueBrain> so if we look at last month 21:43:49 <TrueBrain> 376 dollar was for CloudFront 21:43:55 <TrueBrain> of which 247 dollar was in Europe 21:44:11 <TrueBrain> this is because we did 3TB inside Europe 21:44:54 <TrueBrain> 300GB in Asia Pacific, 80GB in Australia, 150GB in South America, 50GB in India, and 500GB in US 21:45:03 <TrueBrain> a total of 4TB, give or take 21:46:01 <TrueBrain> of that same month 21:46:11 <TrueBrain> 1TB was zBase, 655GB was abase 21:46:30 <TrueBrain> next, 26GB was OpenGFX, 25GB was OpenSFX 21:46:32 <TrueBrain> rest is pocket-change 21:47:03 <TrueBrain> zBase was downloaded 3800 times, aBase 2600 times 21:47:10 <TrueBrain> just to show the insanity of those two downloads :) 21:47:47 <frosch123> both azure and google want about /TB/month. OVH is a lot cheaper with /TB/month if we take 10TB/month 21:48:04 <TrueBrain> OVH VPS, 5 euro per month, 3TB included 21:48:08 <TrueBrain> I can do you cheaper ;) 21:48:19 <TrueBrain> it just isn't a CDN 21:48:19 <frosch123> https://www.ovh.ie/cdn/infrastructure/ <- i was looking at that, no idea what it means :) 21:48:46 <TrueBrain> 180GB per month for opensfx via the installer 21:48:55 <TrueBrain> 60GB per month for OpenGFX via the installer 21:49:03 <TrueBrain> I did not know OpenSFX was bigger :P 21:49:14 <TrueBrain> 20k hits per month on both 21:49:31 <TrueBrain> 1.10.3 windows release was downloaded 25k times, worth 100GB 21:50:08 <frosch123> yeah, sfx is 12mb, gfx 5mb 21:51:17 <TrueBrain> we deal with ~80k hits per day on CDN/BaNaNaS/.. (a binary download) 21:51:31 <TrueBrain> roughly 150GB per day 21:51:45 <TrueBrain> but I have a hard time adding up to the 4TB a month, I have to admit 21:52:00 <TrueBrain> getting to the 2TB is easy, as that are those 2 downloads :P 21:52:13 <TrueBrain> anyway, we can do several things 21:52:25 <TrueBrain> if we move abase and zBase alone to a OVH VPS, we reduce the AWS bill with 150 dollar per month 21:52:33 <TrueBrain> even more 21:52:54 * andythenorth wonders if we can kill them 21:53:10 <andythenorth> my opinion is invalid, because I dislike the 32bpp EZ stuff 21:53:15 <TrueBrain> well, that is something I just want to talk about 21:53:19 <TrueBrain> because they are last updated in 2016 21:53:23 <TrueBrain> (and zBase in 2015) 21:53:24 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1168813#p1168813 21:53:26 <TrueBrain> how relevant is the content? 21:53:30 <LordAro> could their distributions be "improved* ? better compressed, etc 21:53:53 <TrueBrain> well, switching a different compression, like zstd helps a bit 21:53:56 <TrueBrain> but that is like 10% 21:54:10 <TrueBrain> but okay, putting that aside for a bit 21:54:19 <andythenorth> would players pay 1 euro for each download 21:54:23 <TrueBrain> it does leave us with a ~300 dollar bill per month in total, without zBase and abase 21:54:24 <LordAro> i suppose the images couldn't be improved any further? not sure how they're encoded in grfs 21:54:38 <TrueBrain> we have enough donations to cover us for a year or 2 21:54:38 <frosch123> TrueBrain: they are popular among new players. but it's unfortunate that they are two sets, and not abase a new version to zbase 21:54:44 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:55:07 <TrueBrain> we can reduce the bill further, honestly 21:55:20 <LordAro> i think zeph is still activeish, dunno about the other, could discuss it with them? 21:55:23 <TrueBrain> if we move BaNaNaS completely away to VPS distribution, basically 21:55:29 <LordAro> (or just do it, depending on licences) 21:55:43 <frosch123> LordAro: the abase guy lost all their sources due to disk crash or something, and abandoned their project 21:55:49 <LordAro> (re frosch suggestion) 21:55:50 <frosch123> abase differs from zbase in like 50 gui sprites 21:55:58 <TrueBrain> but it depends a bit on what we find acceptable here 21:56:03 <andythenorth> abase thread says it's dead 21:56:36 <TrueBrain> so in a bigger picture ... fixing abase/zBase does a lot 21:56:41 <TrueBrain> but do we find the remainder acceptable 21:56:44 <andythenorth> repo is gone 21:56:51 <andythenorth> https://bitbucket.org/luke1985m/abase-main 21:57:09 <andythenorth> TrueBrain it's all those Horse uploads eating the bill :( 21:57:15 <TrueBrain> (as, lets be honest, 300 dollar a month is a lot for an Open Source project :P) 21:57:25 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: uploads are free, so no 21:58:07 <LordAro> how much would be needed to "break even" with donations? 21:58:28 <TrueBrain> mind you we haven't done fundraisers in years 21:58:38 <TrueBrain> let me see if I have that information .. (that is orudge's department btw) 21:59:21 <LordAro> i don't need exact numbers :p 21:59:30 <frosch123> i guess we could claim that we can only support hosting one 32bpp baseset, kill abase, and tell people to contribute to zbase 21:59:34 <TrueBrain> but I do need to know estimates :P 21:59:38 <TrueBrain> it is not like I remember that shit LordAro :D 22:00:05 <TrueBrain> owh, I only have profit/loss, so that is already after the bills we had in those years 22:00:25 <TrueBrain> if I can guestimate this, it is around 1000 dollar in per year; bit less by the looks of it 22:00:37 <LordAro> you're the one who said "cover us for a year or 2" 22:00:40 <LordAro> :p 22:00:51 <TrueBrain> I do know how much we have in reserve 22:00:55 <TrueBrain> that 2 years is with 0 donations :D 22:01:00 <LordAro> right :D 22:01:16 <TrueBrain> we ae VERY bad in using donations (which is a good thing, honestly) 22:02:30 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 22:02:34 <TrueBrain> tt-forums does a 500 pound fundraiser each year 22:02:40 <TrueBrain> we would have a bill around 5 times that amount 22:03:03 <TrueBrain> the problem for me, 300 dollar AWS bill per month is like ... a joke to me :P Any company you work for laughs at those numbers 22:03:09 <TrueBrain> so I have a hard time putting any of this in perspective :P 22:03:19 <LordAro> :) 22:03:27 <frosch123> looks like we are back at vps 22:03:34 <LordAro> this was always the downsize of putting everything on AWS :p 22:03:38 <LordAro> downside* 22:03:49 <TrueBrain> well, I knew when I loaded BaNaNaS onto it, it would be "a problem" 22:03:54 <TrueBrain> I mentioned that many many times :D 22:04:03 <TrueBrain> I was always prepared to move those to a VPS network :) 22:04:22 <TrueBrain> this year we got lucky that AWS sponsored us 22:04:25 <TrueBrain> that is all, really :P 22:04:58 <LordAro> how much would you guess would be saved by removing one of abase/zbase? 22:05:05 <LordAro> (i.e. how many download both?) 22:05:35 <frosch123> LordAro: 655gb of 4tb for abase 22:05:50 <frosch123> so 13% 22:05:51 <TrueBrain> 4TB is arond 376 dollar, 1TB was zBase, 655GB was abase 22:06:04 <LordAro> 376/month? 22:06:12 <TrueBrain> 376 for 4TB 22:06:18 <TrueBrain> thatt .. needs no other time unit 22:06:23 <LordAro> right 22:06:31 <TrueBrain> @calc 655 / 4000 * 376 22:06:31 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 61.57 22:06:52 <TrueBrain> so abase costs us 62 dollar per month currently :) 22:07:02 <frosch123> so, removing abase safes us 16% of the cose, but i guess that does not solve the problem either 22:07:02 <TrueBrain> @calc 1000 / 4000 * 376 22:07:02 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 94 22:07:11 <TrueBrain> and zBase 94 :) I like putting numbers in perspective :D 22:07:34 <TrueBrain> @calc (4 + 18) * 30 22:07:34 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 660 22:07:45 <TrueBrain> @calc 18 * 30 22:07:45 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 540 22:08:00 <TrueBrain> right, let me just get my calculator, instead of spamming here 22:08:01 <frosch123> we cannot stop hosting both 32bpp sets :) and moving only them to a vps makes no sense either, does it? 22:08:28 <LordAro> how about moving all basesets? 22:08:31 <TrueBrain> well, moving only them means the rest of BaNaNaS is still very fast no matter where you live 22:08:36 <TrueBrain> those two will be EU based, and a bit slower 22:09:44 <TrueBrain> I am basically min/maxing user experience 22:09:50 <TrueBrain> ah, finally found the total usage of BaNaNaS 22:09:54 <TrueBrain> out of the 4TB, 3.5TB is BaNaNaS :) 22:10:31 *** Koala has joined #openttd 22:10:33 <TrueBrain> 300GB are the binaries, of which 1 day was 60GB .. some days are weird 22:10:39 <Koala> Hello hello hello 22:10:51 <frosch123> speed is only important for big downloads. so, i see no reason to keep anything on aws. we should pick whatever is easier to implement 22:10:53 <TrueBrain> also 10 times more downloads, so I guess we got posted on some forum :P 22:11:14 <Koala> How's it hanging in paradise? 22:11:25 <TrueBrain> frosch123: that is fair 22:11:34 <TrueBrain> given 80% of the traffic is EU based, I suggest we keep everything in the EU 22:11:38 <TrueBrain> pick 2 cheap VPSes 22:11:43 <TrueBrain> round robin the DNS 22:12:04 <TrueBrain> doing that would reduce the bill with ... 22:12:09 <TrueBrain> @calc 3500 / 4000 * 376 22:12:09 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 329 22:12:12 <TrueBrain> that much 22:12:14 <TrueBrain> :P 22:12:18 <LordAro> quite a bit :p 22:12:25 <TrueBrain> meaning that with no incoming donations, we can survive for 4+ years 22:12:27 <LordAro> yeah, that's probably the way to go 22:12:40 <TrueBrain> bandwidth is just silly expensive on cloud providers :) 22:12:47 <LordAro> ~50/month AWS bill sounds plenty survivable 22:12:49 <Koala> What're you guys talking about:D 22:12:55 <LordAro> money 22:12:59 <Koala> Running a server? 22:13:05 <LordAro> many servers 22:13:11 <TrueBrain> LordAro: no no, this was the bandwidth bill 22:13:13 <TrueBrain> not the total bill 22:13:14 <frosch123> TrueBrain: did you reverse those numbers? i think you mean 12+ years 22:13:24 *** Koala has left #openttd 22:13:40 <TrueBrain> @calc 4 * 30 + 50 22:13:40 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 170 22:13:45 <TrueBrain> @calc 170 * 12 * 4 22:13:46 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 8160 22:13:51 <TrueBrain> no, I got that about right frosch123 22:14:23 <TrueBrain> but I can also reduce the 4 dollar per day for the other stuff a bit 22:14:33 <TrueBrain> I believe by 50% if I use a different "savings" plan 22:15:23 <frosch123> what's the 4*30 ? 22:15:26 <frosch123> 4 vps? 22:15:34 <TrueBrain> I told you from the start: 4 dollar per day for the rest of the infra 22:15:44 <TrueBrain> vs 18 dollar per day for the bandwidth bill 22:15:48 <frosch123> ok :) 22:15:53 <TrueBrain> the 376 is ONLY bandwidth :) 22:16:09 <LordAro> @calc 4 * 365 22:16:09 <DorpsGek> LordAro: 1460 22:16:13 <LordAro> @calc 4 * 365 / 12 22:16:13 <DorpsGek> LordAro: 121.666666667 22:16:13 <TrueBrain> well, the 18 dollar was the highest day in a month .. clearly that wasn't fair :P 22:16:51 <frosch123> so, what is easiest to implement? 22:17:10 <TrueBrain> a few, depending on what we like 22:17:13 <TrueBrain> https://www.backblaze.com/b2/cloud-storage-pricing.html 22:17:20 *** Koala has joined #openttd 22:17:26 <Koala> Back:D 22:17:29 <frosch123> manually move basesets to vps? or change bananas to upload new stuff to vps? 22:17:33 <TrueBrain> https://www.digitalocean.com/pricing/#spaces-object-storage 22:18:06 <LordAro> it's almost "cleaner" to exclusively put all basesets on the VPS 22:18:09 <Koala> So do either of you still play OpenTTD? 22:18:23 <TrueBrain> https://www.ovhcloud.com/nl/vps/compare/ 22:18:46 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I will change BaNaNaS to upload it to where-ever-is-new 22:18:55 <TrueBrain> most likely also copy it to AWS, just for save keeping 22:19:16 <LordAro> https://www.hetzner.com/cloud 22:19:21 <TrueBrain> LordAro: NewGRFs also cost a bit .. lot of small hits, basically 22:19:42 <LordAro> move everything then? 22:19:49 <LordAro> yeah, seems reasonable 22:19:50 <TrueBrain> I would prefer if we can avoid hetzner, but that is just because they are retards when it comes to criminal activities .. they seem to welcome that 22:19:53 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i thought backblaze was only for personal download :o 22:20:02 <TrueBrain> frosch123: nope, they have business solutions too 22:20:05 <LordAro> TrueBrain: this does not surprise me that much 22:20:12 <LordAro> all i know of them is "omg super cheap" 22:20:12 <TrueBrain> both DigitalOcean as BackBlaze are 1 cent per GB, instead of the current 9 22:20:24 <TrueBrain> they are incredibly cheap, yes 22:20:39 <TrueBrain> you can see we can do the 376 bill away for 3 :P 22:20:46 <Koala> TrueBrain: So do both of you run OpenTTD servers? 22:21:02 <LordAro> Koala: TrueBrain is OTTD sysadmin supreme 22:21:12 <TrueBrain> and I do not run a single OpenTTD game server :P 22:21:32 <LordAro> ah yes, i see the potential for confusion :p 22:21:41 <Koala> LordArg: What does this mean xD 22:21:47 <LordAro> OTTD game servers are not nearly this expensive :p 22:21:54 <LordAro> well, not in terms of bandwidth 22:21:57 <frosch123> Koala: everything *.openttd.org, all bananas, all website, all everything 22:22:12 <milek7> TrueBrain: >WS2812B leds, I guess ... 22:22:15 <milek7> https://milek7.pl/.stuff/26gru.webm 22:22:20 <Koala> Oh damn, that's mighty impressive 22:22:31 <TrueBrain> so what we used to do, is have 2 OVH VPSes, those of 5 euro a month, and host BaNaNaS mostly on those 22:22:48 <TrueBrain> milek7: yes, exactly :) That are WS2812Bs? 22:23:04 <frosch123> TrueBrain: b2 sounds like the least work? 22:23:21 <frosch123> vps sounds like maintainance again 22:23:27 <TrueBrain> least work is Digital Ocean, ironically :) 22:23:36 <frosch123> no ipv6? 22:23:40 <LordAro> backblaze have always seemed like a friendly place 22:23:45 <TrueBrain> I think they fixed that, lets see .. 22:23:51 <TrueBrain> I love BackBlaze 22:23:53 <TrueBrain> I really really do 22:23:56 <TrueBrain> my backups go there 22:24:02 <LordAro> could ask for sponsorship? :D 22:24:08 <Koala> frosch123: So I'm guessing I just fall into this as someone who is getting in your guys' way:D 22:24:16 <FLHerne> Koala: TrueBrain and frosch123 spent most of the last month (?) writing a brand-new wiki system because MediaWiki isn't good enough ;-) 22:24:19 <frosch123> Koala: learn and grow 22:24:26 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I don't mind if someone does, but I am a bit done by re-evaluating expensive every N months :P 22:24:32 <FLHerne> Koala: They shut up sometimes, and then we can argue about newgrfs instead 22:24:43 <Koala> :D 22:24:44 <FLHerne> It's a bit late, andythenorth might have gone to bed? 22:24:52 <milek7> TrueBrain: ws2811 22:24:54 <milek7> https://botland.com.pl/pl/paski-led-adresowane/5449-pasek-led-rgb-ws2811-cyfrowy-adresowany-ip65-30-ledm-72wm-12v-5m.html 22:25:05 <TrueBrain> milek7: you like it? 22:25:28 <milek7> it looks nice :) 22:25:33 <milek7> scripted in lua :P 22:26:03 <Koala> FLHerne: That's incredible, so they're talking about servers to run it on? 22:26:43 <frosch123> TrueBrain: oh, both b2 and DO claim to be s3 compatible :) 22:27:10 <TrueBrain> yeah, their API is 22:27:10 <frosch123> does that mean we only have to switch urls and keys? 22:27:15 <TrueBrain> cannot find back if DO is now IPv6 22:27:17 <LordAro> how about other OSS games? there must be something else that has an equivalent sort of hosting 22:27:25 <TrueBrain> I remember something about it, and me laughing, but .. can't find it 22:27:34 <FLHerne> Koala: Mostly the ingame content-download today, if my quick skimreading is correct 22:27:41 <TrueBrain> frosch123: in theory, yes. But .. it is not always that black/white :P 22:27:59 <TrueBrain> LordAro: not sure most OSS use 4TB a month :P 22:28:07 <LordAro> most, sure 22:28:10 <LordAro> but we can't be unique :p 22:28:23 <TrueBrain> our content service kinda is, honestly 22:28:35 <andythenorth> I am here FLHerne 22:28:57 <Koala> FLHerne: Okay I see, so then that's what they mostly talk about is coding and such? 22:29:01 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is useful to mention that BB is not a CDN 22:29:15 <frosch123> what does that mean? 22:29:23 <TrueBrain> that the files are hosted in a single location 22:29:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: We need a grf discussion to convince Koala this isn't only the arcane web service channel ;-) 22:29:39 <TrueBrain> they suggest using CloudFlare to use as edge-network / CDN 22:29:44 <FLHerne> Or something 22:29:45 <TrueBrain> but ... they denied us for binaries-only :P 22:29:49 <TrueBrain> I tried that already :D 22:30:05 <andythenorth> FLHerne make screenshots with FIRS 4 Alpha 4 Steeltown :P 22:30:13 <andythenorth> it takes 60 years to connect all chains 22:30:20 <frosch123> TrueBrain: don't they hit their connection limit pretty fast that way? 22:30:36 <TrueBrain> not really; pretty sure they can handle a lot of requests per second :P 22:30:40 *** Koala has quit IRC 22:30:43 <TrueBrain> it is more that the latency is higher 22:30:52 <TrueBrain> and network interruptions are more noticeable 22:30:59 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That seems excessive 22:31:22 <andythenorth> keeps the game going 22:31:28 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I'll give Steeltown a go when I get time 22:31:36 <andythenorth> it's not for everyone :P 22:31:44 <frosch123> TrueBrain: so, go for b2 first. if it fails, try DO second? 22:31:56 <FLHerne> From my previous quick game, it's not thematically ideal for a trainset 22:32:06 <TrueBrain> sure 22:32:11 <TrueBrain> @calc 0.01 * 4000 22:32:11 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 40 22:32:17 <TrueBrain> would be 40 dollar per month, give or take 22:32:21 <TrueBrain> VPS would be 10 dollar per month 22:32:23 <frosch123> TrueBrain: everything sounds like, you have to try it, to find out what works and doesn't :) 22:32:27 <FLHerne> A bit too sector-specific 22:32:31 <TrueBrain> absolutely :) 22:32:48 * FLHerne thinking maybe a smallish 64^2 map and try to turn it into Scunthorpe by the end :p 22:32:53 <TrueBrain> we tried DO's CDN back in 2019, and it was not great :P 22:33:00 <andythenorth> it's thematically idea for scunthorpe yes 22:33:24 <TrueBrain> okay, I will ask our mister finance to create a B2 account, and I will toy around with it a bit 22:33:31 <andythenorth> I am on 256x512 22:33:36 <frosch123> \o/ 22:33:39 <TrueBrain> I think we will upload it to both AWS S3 as B2, that makes other migrations easier 22:33:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yeah, but I can't have A4s in Scunthorpe :p 22:33:46 <LordAro> https://releases.wildfiregames.com/stats.php?type=month 0AD has approximately 2TB/month bandwidth, if i've maths'd correctly 22:33:59 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:34:06 <TrueBrain> hmm .. does B2 offer custom domain ... 22:34:09 <FLHerne> They have some pretty big art assets 22:34:11 <LordAro> (windows exe is 700MB) 22:34:40 <TrueBrain> LordAro: and where do they host? 22:34:52 <LordAro> wait, i absolutely have not maths'd correctly, that's for the incomplete month of november :p 22:34:57 <LordAro> TrueBrain: haven't worked that out yet 22:35:17 <TrueBrain> frosch123: meh, seems custom domains have to go via CloudFlare .. 22:35:21 <LordAro> 4.5TB/month 22:35:28 <TrueBrain> which didn't like it when I suggested 4TB per month via their network :P 22:35:32 <frosch123> those graphs say 70% go via torrent 22:35:48 <LordAro> yeah, i was only counting the http downloads 22:36:06 <LordAro> @calc 5627 * 694 22:36:06 <DorpsGek> LordAro: 3905138 22:36:10 <LordAro> ^ in MB 22:36:10 <milek7> TrueBrain: that sort of thing https://pastebin.com/raw/98cnykN9 22:36:12 <TrueBrain> so B2 is not possible without having a weird-ass domain :P 22:36:15 <frosch123> TrueBrain: too much? too little? i never understand cloudflare 22:36:23 <TrueBrain> milek7: cool :) 22:36:34 <TrueBrain> frosch123: they do not appreciate it if you only distribute binaries via them 22:36:43 <TrueBrain> if you do your whole site, it is a bit more okay, but still not really 22:36:52 <TrueBrain> so I asked them: how about 4TB of binaries 22:36:53 <TrueBrain> they said: no 22:37:12 <LordAro> releases.wildfire.com points to a hetzner IP :D 22:37:21 <TrueBrain> I am not really surprised :P 22:37:25 <TrueBrain> it is dirt cheap 22:37:28 <TrueBrain> and ... well .. dirt 22:38:38 <LordAro> https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/18504-web-hosting/ this would appear to be their discussion on it 22:39:27 <frosch123> LordAro: they did not switch in 6 years? 22:39:46 <TrueBrain> happy to see their monthly price would be about equal to ours, in total 22:39:58 <LordAro> frosch123: apparently not 22:40:08 <LordAro> though apparently they switched server last year :p 22:40:36 <andythenorth> FLHerne streamlined torpedo cars seems fine 22:41:08 <TrueBrain> frosch123: seems VPSes is by far the easiest way to go 22:41:15 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Do you have those in Horse? 22:41:27 <TrueBrain> but it does require a bit more upkeep 22:41:40 <andythenorth> there's a torpedo car 22:41:46 <andythenorth> and a streamlined engine 22:42:16 <TrueBrain> well, what I can do tomorrow: 1) launch TrueWiki, 2) email AWS asking if there is anything we can do to do get those credits, 3) email CloudFlare what it would cost for them to take us on, 4) figure out what the easiest way would be to use VPSes :P 22:42:22 <frosch123> TrueBrain: what? vps is the easier option? okay, then we have a clear winner :) 22:42:40 <TrueBrain> well, yeah, as we know the DO Spaces can be a bit crappy 22:42:47 <TrueBrain> we have been there for a year, and it had a lot of errors etc 22:42:58 <TrueBrain> B2 requires CloudFlare for custom domain 22:43:01 <andythenorth> https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2012/post-702-0-73210700-1325715849.jpg 22:43:07 <LordAro> not to mention the ipv6 issues :p 22:43:15 <TrueBrain> and those VPSes ... it is just getting a Debian install 22:43:19 <TrueBrain> running "apt get install nginx" 22:43:25 <TrueBrain> shitting a nginx.conf in there 22:43:33 <TrueBrain> generate an ssh-key 22:43:35 <TrueBrain> and .. "done" 22:43:51 <TrueBrain> well, the ssh-key not on the VPSes, but on AWS, with the public key on those VPSes 22:43:59 <TrueBrain> changing BaNaNaS is more effort, but ... what can you do 22:44:06 <TrueBrain> I always assumed I had to do it some day :P 22:44:23 <TrueBrain> no, I am going to skip 2) in that list above 22:44:32 <frosch123> just not so early :) 22:44:48 <TrueBrain> well, I always expected it to happen next month, as I knew the credits would end :P 22:45:03 <LordAro> TrueBrain: worth doing something with ansible, or not even worth that? 22:45:11 <TrueBrain> was just hoping we could have been done with wiki last month :P Stupid mediawiki :) 22:45:21 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I have considered starting to use Terraform 22:45:29 <frosch123> and yes, i don't think contacting a big company outside the standard workflow helps with anything 22:45:29 <TrueBrain> as I am also a bit done with configuring GitHub etc 22:45:36 <TrueBrain> but ... I would have to learn that 22:45:42 <TrueBrain> so if you know ansible, and can automate that 22:45:44 <TrueBrain> that would be a big win 22:46:10 <LordAro> i can do ansible 22:46:18 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am also done every year asking for money ... 22:46:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Nice pic 22:46:36 <TrueBrain> LordAro: well, if you can ansible a nginx deployment on OVH VPSes .. that would for sure help :) 22:46:45 <TrueBrain> means we can redeploy that every N months 22:47:04 <TrueBrain> owh, and letsencrypt 22:47:12 <LordAro> yeah, that's all relatively easy 22:47:31 <TrueBrain> the main hurdle will be that they need to both listen on the same hostname 22:47:38 <TrueBrain> so .. bananas.cdn.openttd.org, I guess :P 22:47:45 <TrueBrain> they both need a valid certificate for that 22:47:46 <LordAro> can do nice things like good ssh config, unattended-upgrades, etc etc 22:48:12 <TrueBrain> so the wishlist: nginx + letsencrypt, and ssh or rsync for file transfer 22:48:18 <TrueBrain> that is all they need to do :P 22:48:36 <TrueBrain> the last 5 years we had those VPSes ... I kinda rarely updated them, or logged in to them ..as such setups "just work" 22:49:14 <LordAro> https://github.com/nginxinc/ansible-role-nginx well that was easy 22:49:27 <TrueBrain> just know, my experience with ansible is from 5+ years ago 22:49:31 <TrueBrain> so ... I am useless to you :) 22:49:41 <LordAro> it's not changed *much* 22:49:51 <LordAro> they keep renaming everything, but the majority is the same 22:49:53 <TrueBrain> my memory doesn't allow me to keep such information :P 22:50:03 <TrueBrain> and I get the principles .. just .. no clue how to write any role etc 22:51:11 <TrueBrain> hmm, OVH also has S3-like storage, I see now 22:51:19 <TrueBrain> also for roughly 1 eurocent per GB 22:52:10 <milek7> scaleway too 22:52:34 <TrueBrain> I don't know scaleway 22:52:38 <TrueBrain> any good? 22:53:11 <milek7> vps work fine, didn't use that s3-like storage 22:53:17 <TrueBrain> both OVH and scaleway are without CDN 22:53:28 <TrueBrain> (which is not a real surprise) 22:53:33 <TrueBrain> OVH seems to support custom domains 22:53:38 <TrueBrain> might be another option, honestly 22:55:13 <TrueBrain> The feature works correctly with HTTP. However, you will receive a certificate error if you use HTTPS, since we do not have your private certificate. You will still be able to use HTTPS, but you will receive certificate alerts on most recent browsers. 22:55:15 <TrueBrain> well, that is useless 22:55:18 <TrueBrain> neverminnnnddddd 22:55:33 <TrueBrain> owh, LordAro , the nginx needs to be configured for both HTTP and HTTPS 22:55:47 <TrueBrain> as .. OpenTTD client ...... cannot do ... HTTPS :P 22:56:22 <LordAro> not a problem, especially with ansible :p 22:56:25 <LordAro> well, yaml, i guess 22:56:41 <milek7> ..so does it needs https at all? 22:56:59 <TrueBrain> yes, for if/when we are going to do web-downloads again 22:57:03 <LordAro> OTTD will be able to do https *at some point* 22:57:12 <LordAro> probably. 22:57:41 <TrueBrain> lets see .. how did I deploy this on AWS .. 22:57:55 <TrueBrain> owh, yes, we need something special :D 22:57:56 <TrueBrain> I forgot :) 22:58:26 <andythenorth> is bed 22:58:27 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:58:34 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/aws-infra/blob/master/lambdas/bananas-cdn/index.js 23:02:03 <LordAro> https://github.com/geerlingguy/ansible-role-certbot/blob/master/molecule/default/playbook-standalone-nginx-aws.yml#L84-L140 i do believe i can just take this with some minimal editing 23:03:14 <TrueBrain> I believe you can do anything! :D 23:03:17 <LordAro> :D 23:11:11 <TrueBrain> right, send CloudFlare another email 23:11:28 <TrueBrain> I just asked them what it would cost us to get an Enterprise Plan :P I can imagine it being a lot, but if you never ask ........ you never know 23:11:42 <TrueBrain> I will ask our master in chief to get 2 VPSes at OVH tomorrow LordAro 23:11:59 <TrueBrain> after I brought the wiki live, I will see what code-changes are needed :) 23:12:26 <TrueBrain> we got somewhat side-tracked, but frosch123 , do you see any blockers to bring the wiki online? 23:13:18 <frosch123> no :) i procrastinated writing the frontpage/news. when the forums-url-sed grew out of hand :p 23:13:29 <TrueBrain> hahaha :D 23:13:32 <TrueBrain> well, you have tomorrow for that :P 23:13:45 <TrueBrain> we are missing the search bar, but we have to wait for search engines to pick up the new goodies 23:13:51 <TrueBrain> I am pretty happy with the 150 requests/s 23:14:17 <frosch123> still no ngynx, right? 23:14:17 <TrueBrain> and pretty sure we can delay going live for months, and finetune it further and further 23:14:26 <TrueBrain> but ....... 23:14:27 <TrueBrain> no nginx, no 23:14:45 <TrueBrain> I would have to load it as a side-car, as I showed with gollum 23:14:48 <TrueBrain> it is a bit annoying to do 23:14:53 <TrueBrain> this seems fine too :P 23:14:54 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 23:15:00 <frosch123> yeah, no more delays 23:15:42 <TrueBrain> owh, and if "git" fails for what-ever reason 23:15:47 <TrueBrain> the pod kills itself and reboots 23:15:53 <TrueBrain> I didn't want to deal with "read-only" mode :P 23:16:02 <frosch123> and sentry reports? 23:16:09 <TrueBrain> yes, there will be a sentry report 23:16:10 <TrueBrain> always :D 23:16:14 <frosch123> :) 23:16:23 <TrueBrain> it is my: WAKE UP SOMETHING BROKE, signal 23:16:25 <TrueBrain> I love it 23:16:35 <frosch123> we'll see who digs up skynet 23:16:52 <TrueBrain> the good thing is, with wiki migrated ... I can shut down the MySQL :D 23:17:05 <TrueBrain> next up, email ... we know what to do, we just have to do it 23:17:20 <TrueBrain> and, of course, supybot ... :P 23:17:37 <TrueBrain> after that ... I once a month have to cycle servers for them to receive upgrades .. and every N months cycle secrets .. 23:17:43 <TrueBrain> I am looking forward to that moment 23:18:04 <TrueBrain> everything managed \o/ \o/ 23:18:22 <TrueBrain> might cost 40 euro a month more ... pretty sure my time is worth more :D >:D 23:19:00 <frosch123> i think that's the whole business plan of aws and friends :) 23:19:15 <TrueBrain> and it really is totally worth it 23:19:17 <TrueBrain> it really is 23:19:28 <TrueBrain> the security of openttd.org is now 1000x better than it was 23:19:51 <milek7> I still think all that cloud is ridiculously overpriced.. 23:20:21 <TrueBrain> it really isn't; but you have to look beyond the managed vs unmanaged 23:20:34 <TrueBrain> well, the bandwidth price is overpriced, that is very true 23:20:40 <TrueBrain> but it will go down over time :) 23:21:07 <TrueBrain> I remember 1 mbit/s was costing 15 euro a month, on a 95% rating 23:21:17 <TrueBrain> that is 300GB for 15 euro, give or take 23:21:22 <TrueBrain> @calc 15 / 300 23:21:22 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.05 23:21:31 <TrueBrain> it is now at 0.09 :D 23:22:10 *** nielsm has quit IRC 23:22:18 <LordAro> TrueBrain: https://gist.github.com/LordAro/3db5925b921ca986272f7d77bca0ae58 that should be a good start 23:23:09 <TrueBrain> it means very little to me :P 23:23:10 <TrueBrain> but nice :D 23:23:33 <TrueBrain> do consider how letsencrypt is going to verify the domain 23:23:39 <TrueBrain> there will be 2 VPSes on the same hostname 23:23:43 <TrueBrain> round-robin 23:24:10 <TrueBrain> so http-validation can easily fail 23:24:19 <TrueBrain> DNS validation is an option, no clue how that works in ansible 23:24:22 <LordAro> well, i'm trusting the example i copied it from, but geerlingguy's stuff tends to be pretty sound - he writes a decent percentage of all ansible 'recipies' 23:24:27 <LordAro> will investigate 23:24:37 <TrueBrain> it is a bit rare, what I would like 23:24:39 <TrueBrain> honestly :) 23:24:53 <TrueBrain> we can, if that is easier, also use bananas-1.cdn.openttd.org and bananas-2.cdn.openttd.org 23:25:06 <TrueBrain> and I can make the redirector we have in front of it pick one at random 23:25:59 <TrueBrain> with 2 different domains, you can use the letsencrypt http validation 23:26:03 <TrueBrain> which I think your snippet uses 23:26:29 <TrueBrain> (as that is default for certbot) 23:28:02 <LordAro> i think so, yeah 23:28:12 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/bananas-server/blob/master/bananas_server/web_routes.py#L46 23:28:21 <TrueBrain> we would only need to change that to pick one from a list, basically 23:28:45 <TrueBrain> pretty trivial change 23:28:51 <TrueBrain> so okay, lets do that instead :) 23:28:54 <LordAro> round robin should still be fine, i think 23:28:59 <LordAro> but it is a bit nasty :p 23:29:13 <LordAro> (round robin DNS itself) 23:29:26 <TrueBrain> on all OSes except Windows it is fine :P 23:29:31 <TrueBrain> but I guess you have a point there 23:29:51 <TrueBrain> how to upload files there .. hmm ... that needs some more consideration .. 23:30:06 <TrueBrain> we can either have the API upload it there 23:30:13 <TrueBrain> or we can have a simple script sync every N minutes 23:30:35 <frosch123> then you have to track sync status, or people get a lot 404 23:30:50 <TrueBrain> true 23:30:54 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/bananas-api/blob/master/bananas_api/storage/s3.py 23:30:58 <TrueBrain> storage backends are very simple 23:31:31 <TrueBrain> if I can make it so we can daisy-chain them 23:31:36 <TrueBrain> it becomes a configuration problem 23:31:39 <milek7> maybe nginx could rewrite 404 to some php/something script, that fetches it from s3? 23:31:40 <frosch123> so just a subprocess("scp")? 23:31:40 <TrueBrain> which is a nice problem to have :) 23:31:56 <TrueBrain> milek7: I did that for a while, that is not a bad idea honestly 23:32:19 <TrueBrain> where is my nginx config for that ... 23:33:28 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/binaries-proxy/blob/master/nginx.default.conf 23:33:34 <TrueBrain> so instead of copying files there, it is a caching proxy 23:33:43 <TrueBrain> means it is always up-to-date 23:33:49 <TrueBrain> doesn't require copying files 23:33:56 <TrueBrain> everything we have can stay the same 23:34:12 <TrueBrain> just the "60m" should be like ..... A LOT 23:34:18 <TrueBrain> @calc 60 * 24 * 30 23:34:18 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 43200 23:34:19 <TrueBrain> or something 23:34:38 <TrueBrain> line 12 and 30 .. 39 are important 23:34:43 <TrueBrain> rest is not needed for this 23:34:58 <TrueBrain> I really like that ... makes it really simple to implement 23:35:06 <TrueBrain> no clue why I forgot about this :D 23:37:50 <TrueBrain> LordAro / frosch123 : good idea / bad idea? :) 23:39:17 <frosch123> does that also work for the url rewrite magic? 23:39:44 <TrueBrain> yes 23:39:57 <TrueBrain> line 30 will read: proxy_pass https://bananas.cdn.openttd.org/; 23:39:58 <TrueBrain> basically 23:40:03 <TrueBrain> using the AWS infrastructure 23:40:06 <frosch123> then it sounds cool :) 23:40:17 <TrueBrain> in other words: it would be a poor-mans CloudFlare solution 23:40:27 <LordAro> i was halfway through working out how to make nginx do the url rewriting :p 23:40:36 <TrueBrain> sorry bubba :) 23:40:57 <LordAro> https://gist.github.com/LordAro/3db5925b921ca986272f7d77bca0ae58 i think i got it anyway 23:41:14 <TrueBrain> :D 23:42:01 <TrueBrain> well, it sounds like this VPS solution uncomplicated itself over the evening :D Nice 23:42:32 <TrueBrain> happy DigitalOcean was being a twat with "no IPv6 for Spaces", and I once already figured out how to do caching nginx :P 23:43:02 <TrueBrain> there is a 40GB SSD in those VPSes 23:43:05 <TrueBrain> so that is PLENTY of storage 23:43:06 <milek7> maybe I'm just having needlessy evil thoughts... but that rewrite can be abused somewhat 23:43:19 <milek7> fetch random filenames to clog cache 23:43:47 <TrueBrain> you mean the regex LordAro showed, or my proxy_pass? 23:44:19 <milek7> that proxy_pass, ie. fetch random visible names that are fetching same file over and over 23:44:29 <TrueBrain> yup 23:44:32 <TrueBrain> if you want to hurt us, you can :) 23:45:18 <TrueBrain> but if you like, we can rewrite the URL to not include that for the caching 23:45:31 <TrueBrain> meaning LordAro's work is not in vain :P 23:45:47 <TrueBrain> (rewrite the URL to not have the "/filename.tar.gz" at the end and proxy-pass that) 23:46:27 <TrueBrain> not completely sure what the key is for the cache entry 23:46:36 <TrueBrain> but that can be found out :D 23:48:31 <TrueBrain> locations of the VPSes will be Roubaix and Frankfurt, I think 23:48:40 <TrueBrain> Roubaix as it is in the core of OVH, so good connectivity 23:48:50 <TrueBrain> and Frankfurt to have a fallback somewhat further away 23:49:05 <TrueBrain> I don't see a need to have one outside of Europe 23:50:42 <frosch123> frankfurt is de-cix 23:52:14 <TrueBrain> yeah, and if I remember OVH infrastructure good enough, that is also pretty connected :D 23:52:26 <frosch123> but if i understand you well, we can just add and remove vps as needed. balancer needs to know which cdn-1..cdn-N exist, and then they will sync themself 23:53:13 <TrueBrain> yup 23:53:30 <TrueBrain> so that makes the question .. how is the balancer going to detect that, or are we going to hardcode it 23:53:48 <frosch123> well, depends whether it shall ping them 23:53:55 <frosch123> and drop them 23:53:56 <TrueBrain> or be pinged 23:54:01 <TrueBrain> as that is easier 23:54:10 <TrueBrain> that they ping the balancer, telling: I AM HEREEEEEEEE 23:54:21 <frosch123> oh yeah, that sounds cool. vps register at it via ping :) 23:54:22 <TrueBrain> and if that ping is away for N minutes 23:54:34 <frosch123> so balancer does not need to know them at all 23:54:34 <TrueBrain> it knows: it is goneeeeeee 23:54:39 <TrueBrain> not hardcoded 23:55:17 <TrueBrain> does require something on those VPSes to do the ping 23:55:24 <TrueBrain> (a simple cron-curl would be fine) 23:55:38 <frosch123> and some secret :) 23:55:48 <TrueBrain> ghehe :) Yes, some secret indeed :) 23:56:17 <TrueBrain> within AWS I take care of these things via a private DNS 23:56:30 <TrueBrain> the services register a DNS entry there, which other parts pick up 23:56:40 <TrueBrain> but ... we don't have a shared DNS, I guess 23:56:44 <frosch123> can sentry report when a ping is lost and comes back? 23:56:54 <TrueBrain> Sentry can do alerts, so yes 23:56:57 <TrueBrain> never used that 23:57:28 <TrueBrain> Metric Alerts, the interface mention 23:57:33 <TrueBrain> so .. I guess .. it can do metrics :D 23:57:35 <frosch123> some message when the balancer adds or removes a mirror 23:58:00 <TrueBrain> https://docs.sentry.io/product/performance/metrics/ 23:59:16 <frosch123> hmm, it's 1am again 23:59:24 <TrueBrain> yeah, time to get some shut-eye 23:59:30 <frosch123> night :) 23:59:34 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 23:59:40 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC