Log for #openttd on 26th November 2020:
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02:26:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #94: [lt_LT] Translator access request
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04:35:34  <Flygon> It's normal for the mouse to move juttery when the game is paused, right?
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08:08:44  <longtomjr> morning andythenorth, saw your message now. Seems like I am not the only one that feels the need for an 'Iron Wagon' set. Work and personal stuff is currently taking up most of my time, so it will probably not happen soon unfortunately. Maybe when i get an open weekend somewhere I will poke around in the IH source again. Thanks for the link :)
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08:19:16  <andythenorth> longtomjr turning off the engines is probably 2 edits
08:19:35  <andythenorth> but I think some of the magic might break for passenger and mail coaches
08:20:27  <andythenorth> they check the engine IDs
08:22:34  <longtomjr> Hmm, for my purposes I probably don't need the coaches, since most trainsets will have coaches that fits their engines
08:28:37  * andythenorth tests
08:29:33  <andythenorth> ok mostly it's clear this list
08:29:39  <andythenorth> optionally remove the imports above
08:30:01  <andythenorth> and then there are some coaches that need removed, the compile breaks because they look for specific engines
08:30:34  <andythenorth> alternatively there could be a 'wagons only' roster, I hadn't considered that previously
08:30:41  <andythenorth> not sure people would realise it exists
08:31:32  <longtomjr> let me save this for later, thanks for the help
08:32:36  <longtomjr> The ideal for me would be to implement it as a build flag or something with minimum code changes and impact, that way the fork is just way easier to maintain.
08:35:07  <andythenorth> I can help with that
08:35:55  <andythenorth> I think if you define your own roster, that will encapsulate _most_ of the changes in a single file
08:36:08  <andythenorth> I could probably add conditionals for other cases to simplify the fork
08:38:12  <longtomjr> Thanks :) will definitely ask when I start tinkering with it
08:38:12  <andythenorth> I quite like forks
08:38:41  <andythenorth> there are multiple FIRS forks, and authors really don't bother me much with questions or feedback
08:39:01  <andythenorth> on balance I'd rather support a handful of forks than read the same out-of-scope feature requests over and over again
08:39:07  <andythenorth> :D
08:40:12  <longtomjr> :)
08:44:34  <andythenorth> one roster file, and some kind of project.ini or makefile.config
08:44:34  <andythenorth> should be enough
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09:40:18  <orudge> Hmm, on both my old and new Mac, if I go into fast-forward mode the game crashes with an exception in the message ticker code. FPS looks to be about 4x what I get on my Windows machine, but need to check the settings are the same.
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09:49:18  <andythenorth> orudge that's interesting :)
09:49:19  <andythenorth> I don't get that
09:49:19  <andythenorth> but news messages are associated with very odd performance slowdowns
09:49:52  <andythenorth> (could be coincidence not causation)
10:14:35  <orudge> It almost seems like the performance is too fast that it's crashing the news ticker
10:14:35  <orudge> Will need to look into it
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10:24:23  <andythenorth> I have a sometimes reproducible issue where the game lags horribly as news runs
10:24:29  <andythenorth> opening a news message clears the lag
10:24:39  <andythenorth> I can't prove they're causally linked
11:04:31  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I am looking at replacing DorpsGek (as it runs on the old server)
11:04:49  <TrueBrain> I wonder if it should still do chanserv stuff ..
11:05:09  <TrueBrain> I guess it makes life easier ..
11:05:30  <TrueBrain> Limnoria is such a complex piece of software to configure properly :(
11:06:22  <TrueBrain> and mainly, it is not meant to run stateless :P
11:06:36  <TrueBrain> it comes from another world :P
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11:35:57  <TrueBrain> <- did I miss any functionality we use?
11:43:04  <LordAro> TrueBrain: thinking of rolling everything into DorpsGek_III ?
11:43:27  <TrueBrain> yes
11:43:38  <LordAro> @seen database would be the hardest thing to add, presumably?
11:43:38  <DorpsGek> LordAro: seen [<channel>] <nick>
11:43:43  <LordAro> DorpsGek: shush
11:43:59  <TrueBrain> well, the statefulness of that is tricky
11:44:34  <TrueBrain> the biggest problem is when a new version is being rolled out
11:44:34  <TrueBrain> not sure yet how to prevent loss of information
11:45:11  <LordAro> dump it to the same place the logs would go?
11:45:11  <TrueBrain> they have the same issue :)
11:45:16  <LordAro> rather than a database, just read from some file
11:45:32  <TrueBrain> the Seen database, how it is implemented, write the full file every N minutes
11:45:35  <TrueBrain> so if a new DorpsGek starts, it will read the file, and use that as his truth
11:45:50  <TrueBrain> the time between the reading of that file and really joining of channels
11:45:58  <TrueBrain> is lost
11:46:24  <TrueBrain> so that is not the biggest gap in time
11:46:24  <TrueBrain> I guess we have to live with that :P
11:46:24  <TrueBrain> LordAro: the bot uses no database; never did, never will :P
11:46:24  <LordAro> could attempt to write something on shutdown as well?
11:46:40  <LordAro> but no great loss if it fails
11:46:40  <TrueBrain> yeah, but the shutdown happens 30+ seconds after a new instance is launched
11:46:40  <TrueBrain> so that is not useful :)
11:46:40  <LordAro> ah
11:46:53  <LordAro> why the overlap?
11:47:00  <TrueBrain> normally, it ensures 100% uptime
11:47:03  <TrueBrain> so if you deploy a new website, the new instance is started
11:47:04  <TrueBrain> health checks pass
11:47:11  <TrueBrain> traffic is redirects to it
11:47:11  <TrueBrain> if still stable, old instance dies
11:47:52  <TrueBrain> so for like 30 seconds, there will be two bots, basically
11:48:06  <LordAro> right
11:48:12  <LordAro> not quite as important for an irc bot :p
11:48:24  <TrueBrain> nope; and it leaves some gaps
11:48:40  <TrueBrain> as the new instance has the knowledge of the bot as it was at the start of that 30 seconds
11:48:52  <TrueBrain> but I guess it is very unlikely for that to ever give any problem
11:48:59  <TrueBrain> someone who rarely talks has to say something exactly in that 30 seconds
11:49:16  <TrueBrain> for logs, a similar problem exists
11:49:27  <TrueBrain> the filesystem is an NFS, with 2 bots having the same file open with "append"
11:49:38  <TrueBrain> so ... I guess ... log lines are repeated during that 30 seconds?
11:49:43  <TrueBrain> not sure honestly :)
11:50:22  <TrueBrain> I would classify both as "acceptable risks" and "known artifacts"
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12:07:45  <andythenorth> ooof
12:07:52  <andythenorth> what am I doing again?
12:07:56  <andythenorth> or supposed to be doing?
12:08:01  * andythenorth discombobulated
12:14:54  <andythenorth> lucnh!
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12:55:24  <LordAro> TrueBrain: we could run it on one of the VPS :p
12:55:53  <TrueBrain> no
12:56:29  <LordAro> lol
12:56:44  <TrueBrain> :D
12:57:04  <LordAro> (any reason other than separation of concerns?)
12:57:32  <TrueBrain> there were many more pieces of software that would have been easier to run on the VPS
12:57:40  <TrueBrain> but it doesn't reduce the bus-factor
12:57:43  <TrueBrain> nor the complexity of the setup
12:58:00  <TrueBrain> the whole reason for this AWS migration is that more people can contribute to the various pieces of software
12:58:29  <TrueBrain> and auto-deploying for sure is one of the reasons it is easier
12:58:57  <TrueBrain> having a special-case run on some VPS, is not a step forward :D
13:03:05  <LordAro> no reason why we couldn't have it auto-deploying
13:03:10  <LordAro> not that i disagree with you
13:04:55  <TrueBrain> you have to wonder if it is useful to write your own auto-deploy at that point :)
13:05:17  <TrueBrain> especially if it is for a single service, that is rather messy and unexpected :)
13:05:35  <TrueBrain> either way, the TODO list I showed, still would have to be done
13:05:42  <TrueBrain> it only resolves the 30s-window-issue :)
13:06:00  <TrueBrain> ugh, this bot really .. the defaults are so fucked up :P
13:09:38  <TrueBrain> I found a bug in the bot ... that didn't take me long. Clearly nobody uses that command ... it is a bullshit command anyway
13:11:13  <TrueBrain> that bug is 4 years old ... and no reports about it .. tells you a thing or two :P
13:20:37  <andythenorth> fuck me it is cold here
13:20:43  <andythenorth> my fingers won't type
13:21:19  <TrueBrain> couldn't pay the heating bill?
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13:32:41  <TrueBrain> @any TrueBrain
13:32:41  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 11 minutes and 22 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> couldn't pay the heating bill?
13:32:51  <TrueBrain> seriously ... this bot is full of things that are not really .. useful :P
13:33:49  <TrueBrain> like this:
13:33:50  <TrueBrain> @last
13:33:50  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: [14:33:49] <TrueBrain> like this:
13:35:49  <orudge> @first
13:35:49  <TrueBrain> and I am finding more commands I really do not want anyone to ever execute :P
13:35:53  <orudge> @joke
13:35:59  <orudge> @give_me_all_the_money
13:36:06  <orudge> Nope, bot's broken.
13:36:39  <LordAro> @last orudge
13:36:39  <DorpsGek> LordAro: last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]
13:36:45  <LordAro> yes, that is useless
13:37:52  <TrueBrain> so many more ... I remember why it always scared me, supybot
13:37:57  <TrueBrain> and I am shocked it wasn't abused more over the years :P
13:38:09  <TrueBrain> they did not embrace the concept: do one thing, and do it right
13:38:16  <TrueBrain> it is more like: do this one thing, and do a few more while at it
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14:14:20  <TrueBrain> owh, I was overcomplicating the user authentication .. I can just say: you need to be authenticated against NickServ.
14:14:24  <TrueBrain> make it an OFTC problem :D
14:25:41  <glx> a new DorpsGek ?
14:26:03  <TrueBrain> yeah .. sadly ... :P
14:27:10  <TrueBrain> @ports
14:27:11  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
14:27:13  <TrueBrain> is that still useful ^^ ?
14:27:53  <TrueBrain> @propset
14:27:53  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: svn propset svn:eol-style native <file>
14:27:54  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: svn propset svn:keywords Id <file>
14:27:55  <TrueBrain> hihi :D
14:28:07  <TrueBrain> @servers
14:28:08  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
14:28:09  <TrueBrain> :(
14:28:21  <glx> oh you can remove propset I guess
14:28:36  <TrueBrain> yeah ... I am sure I can :D
14:28:44  <glx> but ports is used from time to time
14:28:45  <TrueBrain> was more wondering about @ports
14:28:49  <TrueBrain> it is used .. some times ...
14:28:54  <TrueBrain> like .. twice in 2019, I believe
14:29:15  <TrueBrain>       6 @ports
14:29:18  <TrueBrain> sorry, 6 times
14:29:37  <TrueBrain> but okay, I will add it, not a real issue
14:32:55  <LordAro> it's not an issue so often anymore
14:33:35  <TrueBrain> it was used 38 times in 2010
14:33:57  <TrueBrain> stayed around 30 for the next 5 years
14:34:05  <TrueBrain> so one can wonder if it ever was really an issue, or us just being very lazy :D
14:34:33  <LordAro> does "3979" appear any more often? :p
14:35:02  <TrueBrain> 112 times in 2010
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14:36:18  <TrueBrain> okay, I have a new DorpsGek ready which does the same as the current .. now time to merge both DorpsGeks ....
14:37:16  <LordAro> that was quick
14:38:17  <TrueBrain> 2 hours configuring a bot? It was REALLY annoying work, I can tell you
14:39:38  <LordAro> oh, that sort of new
14:39:46  <LordAro> rather than written yourself sort of new
14:39:51  * LordAro confused
14:39:59  <TrueBrain> I am using Limnoria :)
14:40:05  <TrueBrain> I am not going to write an IRC bot from scratch :P
14:40:20  <TrueBrain> but I stripped down Limnoria to .. well .. the essentials, now :)
14:49:31  <andythenorth> the train on the left would be hard to do in pixels :P
14:49:39  <andythenorth> reverse slopes are tricky
14:53:20  <FLHerne> Looks French
14:54:29  <glx> ah yes we had some like that
15:10:25  <andythenorth> very french inspired
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15:40:55  <TrueBrain> joy ... Limnoria writes the config file in different order every time it writes it
15:40:58  <TrueBrain> that is .... not so useful
15:41:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8345: MSYS XAudio build fix
15:41:51  <TrueBrain> added the @topic stuff specially for LordAro now :) Pretty sure that will make him happy :P
15:46:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 dismissed a review for pull request #8345: MSYS XAudio build fix
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16:18:34  <supermop_Home> hello
16:19:14  <andythenorth> yo
16:20:11  <supermop_Home> hows it going andy?
16:20:40  <andythenorth> eh it's very train focussed
16:20:44  <andythenorth> train obsessions continue
16:26:35  <supermop_Home> sounds good
16:27:03  <supermop_Home> its amazing how little information is online about the Oahu railway
16:27:38  <supermop_Home> seeing as there are large stretches of un-lifted rail left in various places and it was running til the 70s
16:28:31  <supermop_Home> also looking at real estate in kalihi you can clearly see skinny infill parcels on the map tracing where the rail spurs once went
16:29:54  <supermop_Home> also weird is that they are currently spending tens of billions on a new rail system, with multiple big gantry things building the viaduct just west of downtown.. and there is basically no information online about it
16:30:29  <supermop_Home> zero anoraks or train otaku on the island I guess
16:31:14  <supermop_Home> i did see a grocery store otaku filming an 'unboxing' video of a new grocery store opening
16:33:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 requested changes for pull request #8345: MSYS XAudio build fix
16:58:18  <LordAro> glx: 4 backlashes? are you sure?
16:58:35  <LordAro> i can see 3...
16:58:47  <LordAro> i can see 3 being the correct number, not sure why it would be 4*
16:59:40  <LordAro> oh wait, yes i can
16:59:43  <LordAro> carry on.
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17:04:58  <glx> hehe I tried 2, then 3, then 4
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17:06:03  <glx> other option being to just remove the \n
17:06:38  <LordAro> true
17:06:52  <LordAro> or the printf entirely :p
17:06:57  <LordAro> i just needed a use of a string
17:10:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8345: MSYS XAudio build fix
17:13:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8345: MSYS XAudio build fix
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17:51:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:51:55  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:06:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8345: MSYS XAudio build fix
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19:23:11  <Wolf01> Uhuhuh vive cosmos arrived :P
19:43:34  <Gustavo6046> You know what could be cool?
19:43:40  <Gustavo6046> If you could "merge" rolled-up windows, and have a single window with tabs
19:48:23  <frosch123> you can probably make them behave like an accordion
19:48:42  <frosch123>
19:49:32  <milek7> like haiku?
19:50:16  <frosch123> i know haiku as a form of poem, and i think it was some mobile os some years ago
19:50:35  <milek7> it's desktop os
19:52:02  <frosch123>
19:52:19  <frosch123> i remember some #ifdef HAIKU in ottd, quite sure that was something else
19:56:03  <frosch123> last alpha in 2009, first beta in 2018 :)
19:56:28  <frosch123> so it was dead for almost 10 years?
19:57:31  <andythenorth> @seen supermop
19:57:31  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: supermop was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 44 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 56 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <supermop> they are never worth it in openttd, and they never seem to provide much benefit on the subway here
19:57:34  <milek7> I don't think so
19:57:37  <milek7> it's just slow moving
19:57:42  <Gustavo6046> Or even, how about a draggable station size?
19:58:04  <frosch123> i thought we have that since 2006
20:00:03  <andythenorth> FLHerne Timberwolf take my poll!
20:00:03  <andythenorth>
20:00:03  <andythenorth> (1) even more British (or maybe Irish) engines !
20:00:03  <andythenorth> (2) enough engines already, finish something else!
20:02:11  <frosch123> how about a wood wagon set?
20:02:28  <frosch123> as in pax wagons built from wood
20:02:39  <frosch123> 1900-1940 or so
20:02:42  <andythenorth> hewn out of logs?
20:03:15  <andythenorth> frosch123 this?
20:03:24  <frosch123> weathered look insead of clean cc
20:03:37  <andythenorth> or more like?
20:04:17  <frosch123> <- like this, but trains
20:04:35  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Finish FIRS 4 :p
20:04:56  <frosch123>
20:05:14  <Gustavo6046> frosch123: we do haev draggable truck/bus stations
20:05:16  <Gustavo6046> but not train ones
20:05:18  <frosch123>
20:05:19  <Gustavo6046> in fact I think the cap for train statoins is 7
20:05:33  <frosch123> Gustavo6046: press "drag&drop" in station gui
20:05:36  <Gustavo6046> ?
20:05:41  <frosch123> drag up to station spread limit, max 64
20:05:45  <Gustavo6046> oh!
20:05:49  <Gustavo6046> I never noticed that!
20:05:56  <Gustavo6046> thanks!
20:06:16  <TrueBrain> okay, my conclusion after working with freaking Limnoria for a day ... it is 15 year old legacy code which they tried to port forward again and again and again ... it is a total shitshow .. there, I said it ..
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20:06:33  <frosch123> worse than gollum?
20:07:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: examples good enough?
20:07:42  <andythenorth> frosch123 BRB I think I made it already
20:07:54  <TrueBrain> frosch123: well, no, as I can read Python ... but it is full with anti-patterns, with shitty constructs, and totally leaves no room to do anything than EXACTLY what they meant it to do
20:07:54  <Gustavo6046> we should make a "pretty or ugly" contest
20:08:07  <Gustavo6046> contestants post a screenshot of their game
20:08:20  <Gustavo6046> and AFTER each screenshot is posted, everyone votes them up or down
20:08:23  <Gustavo6046> highest vote screenshot wins
20:08:24  <TrueBrain> <- I mean, just ... wtf are you smoking if you write such a "main"
20:08:35  <Gustavo6046> I will start with 1 demonstration screenie
20:08:38  <Gustavo6046> pretty or ugly?
20:08:43  <Gustavo6046> okay, done, voting may commence
20:09:11  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i see fork()
20:09:40  <TrueBrain> there is no hope for this codebase
20:09:42  <TrueBrain> really, there is not
20:10:13  <TrueBrain> but okay, it is now reporting GitHub events again .. so that is something I guess
20:13:28  <Gustavo6046> how do I make a distributed unload order? like n% chance to go to this or that station
20:13:33  <Gustavo6046> or random choice between stations
20:13:39  <Gustavo6046> conditional jump does not seem to help much
20:15:02  <frosch123> unload everything at a central station
20:15:05  <Gustavo6046> because tehre are always 50 or so airplanes in circles around this intercontinental airport trying to unload goods
20:15:12  <frosch123> then use smaller vehicles to distribute
20:15:26  <frosch123> oh, airplanes... you are new to the game, right? :p
20:15:58  <Gustavo6046> not really!
20:16:05  <Gustavo6046> I do know airplanes are overpowered
20:16:08  <Gustavo6046> but AI uses them a lot anyway so
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20:16:24  <Gustavo6046> I don't just use airplanes, obviously
20:16:31  <frosch123> they are not. the airports are a bottleneck for any decent transport amount
20:16:42  <frosch123> it's nice to have 5 planes, then you are done
20:16:56  <Gustavo6046> ah
20:16:58  <Gustavo6046>
20:17:21  <Gustavo6046> I just set to unload at two stations
20:17:23  <Gustavo6046> they alternate
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20:18:32  <TrueBrain> frosch123: <- let me know if I forgot anything :)
20:19:02  <frosch123> the most important thing: @say :)
20:19:03  <Gustavo6046> accidents are common here lol
20:19:14  <Gustavo6046> twice! o.o
20:19:19  <TrueBrain> frosch123: no :P
20:19:23  <Gustavo6046> valuables rating went from 7% to 3%.
20:19:26  <Gustavo6046> eh, Tuesday
20:19:27  <TrueBrain> it was on there, but I removed it; sorry :)
20:19:30  <Gustavo6046> amirite!
20:19:56  <TrueBrain> (well, it really is a: sorry, not sorry :P)
20:20:09  <frosch123> TrueBrain: anyway, logs and op/deop are the most important. the rest does not matter
20:20:23  <Gustavo6046> wait
20:20:27  <Gustavo6046> oh nvm
20:20:27  <TrueBrain> well, GitHub events are important too I am sure :D
20:20:49  <frosch123> isn't that already solved? or is DorpsGek_III routed via the old server?
20:20:55  <TrueBrain> frosch123: your joining-irc-flow will be slightly different btw: instead of identify with DorpsGek, you would have to identify with NickServ
20:21:10  <frosch123> i already do that, unless banned
20:21:11  <TrueBrain> frosch123: no, but I didn't want 2 DorpsGek's doing almost the same; so I merged them together
20:22:24  <frosch123> i never figured out what makes chanserv op people
20:22:32  <TrueBrain> settings
20:22:43  <TrueBrain> pretty sure we haven't updated ChanServ list in a while :P
20:22:55  <frosch123> possibly we only need logs?
20:23:08  <frosch123> no idea why we use dorpsgek for op/deop and stuff
20:23:23  <TrueBrain> op/deop is not that interesting, I guess, but @kick and @kban are extremely useful
20:23:56  <TrueBrain> with my client for example I cannot ban anyone otherwise :P
20:24:10  <Gustavo6046> oh look, the airports aren't cluttered anymore!
20:24:22  <TrueBrain> but @seen, logs and github-events are the 3 things the bot should at least do
20:24:45  <frosch123> yeah, seen is good
20:24:54  <frosch123> but calc and base is only for samu
20:25:03  <frosch123> everyone else can use python in a console
20:25:10  <frosch123> or press alt+f2 in kde
20:25:14  <TrueBrain> but okay, I implemented most of that now .. only "logs" to do
20:25:22  <andythenorth> I like calc :P
20:25:25  <andythenorth> for % complete
20:26:50  <Gustavo6046> One of my favourite kind of projects is making large waterway networks that span through land using aqueducts and cheapways (dug out canals, rather than built ones)
20:27:38  <Gustavo6046> It's often a challenge, but there's never not a way!
20:28:58  <frosch123> hmm, i think we were at wt4 (eints) before dorpsgek_ii was a thing. but the bot is catching up fast
20:29:37  <frosch123> hmm, what kind of bot was _42_ ?
20:29:43  <frosch123> or whatever was its name
20:30:15  <Gustavo6046> teamtrees
20:30:24  <milek7>
20:30:26  <milek7> that's probably useless cpu nowadays?
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20:32:14  <TrueBrain> wow, 42 .. that is old :P
20:32:34  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
20:32:58  <TrueBrain> not sure what it was running .. my memory is not that great :P
20:33:57  <frosch123> @seen _42_
20:33:57  <DorpsGek> frosch123: I have not seen _42_.
20:34:41  <frosch123> 2007-10-26 is the last occurence in my logs
20:34:52  <Gustavo6046> psst, I know we might not always see things the same way frosch123, but if there's one thing that unites us, that thing is cash
20:34:58  * Gustavo6046 bribes the frosch123
20:34:59  <TrueBrain> it is a good thing DorpsGek doesn't know it :P
20:35:05  <TrueBrain> it would give it a complete identity crisis
20:35:07  <Gustavo6046> shhh!
20:35:49  <TrueBrain> all I remember it is the reason DorpsGek uses @
20:35:55  <TrueBrain> as they were both online at the same time for a while :P
20:37:24  <glx> I have a shortcut for @say
20:37:31  <TrueBrain> seems they run side-by-side for 6 months
20:38:08  <TrueBrain> owh, yes, it was the bot that scared the crap out of me :P
20:38:13  <TrueBrain> it launched "bc" as system
20:38:22  <TrueBrain> to do math stuff
20:38:28  <glx> oh crazy
20:39:10  <frosch123> sounds useful. can we use it as pastebin service?
20:39:31  <TrueBrain> that bot had so many cool features
20:39:34  <TrueBrain> none of them useful
20:39:47  <glx> some bots have games
20:39:56  <TrueBrain> I did that google game with it
20:40:04  <TrueBrain> where you try to find 2 words that have exactly 1 match
20:40:09  <TrueBrain> result
20:40:11  <TrueBrain> what-ever :P
20:40:52  <andythenorth> we had a risk bot once
20:40:55  <andythenorth> ascii risk
20:40:55  <frosch123> 4.4e12 results for "what ever"
20:41:13  <frosch123> err, 4.4e9 only
20:41:16  <frosch123> i can't count :)
20:41:25  <TrueBrain> back in 2007, it was a game you could win
20:41:28  <TrueBrain> but ... people ruined it
20:41:39  <TrueBrain> where complete webpages to create unique combinations
20:41:41  <TrueBrain> it was fun
20:41:48  <TrueBrain> back then, Google crawled your website
20:41:50  <TrueBrain> look at it now
20:42:45  <frosch123> hey, but duckduck has
20:42:52  <TrueBrain> mostly because bing has, I think
20:43:06  <TrueBrain> (duckduckgo doesn't index, but scrapes other search engines :P)
20:43:28  <frosch123> "openttd signals" has the real link on position 2, the old one on position 3
20:44:03  <TrueBrain> on google returns 122 results .. 2100 on bing
20:44:05  <TrueBrain> just saying
20:44:05  <frosch123> some unknown 3rd is the winner over the 2 fighting ones :)
20:44:43  <frosch123> so, they accidently deleted the google source code
20:44:53  <frosch123> now they only have an old snapshot to run
20:45:00  <andythenorth> google is still not indexing
20:45:00  <TrueBrain> that would be amazing
20:45:02  <andythenorth> getting annoying
20:45:06  <TrueBrain> how long could they keep that from the public :D
20:45:17  <TrueBrain> the search dashboard hasn't updated in 5 days for
20:45:57  <Gustavo6046> Is there a good shortcut to "Build a separate station" without going through that tedious Ctrl menu?
20:46:02  <Gustavo6046> You can guess why I want that.
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20:46:52  <glx> maybe there's a setting
20:47:04  <glx> but it's just a guess
20:47:47  <Gustavo6046> ah
20:50:26  <Gustavo6046> Is this how you do high-capacity road stations?
20:50:35  <Gustavo6046> glx: Maybe, but I'd kind of doubt it
20:50:44  <Gustavo6046> I never found a way to customize controls.
20:51:37  <_dp_> Gustavo6046, god no
20:51:49  <_dp_> just line some drive-through ones
20:54:18  <_dp_> Gustavo6046, for shortcut there is an option in citymania client that changes station building so it doesn't need the menu
20:54:28  <_dp_> so you just hold ctrl to build separate stations
20:55:39  <_dp_> makes it kinda awkward to revive deleted stations though
20:58:26  <Gustavo6046> _dp_: ah
20:58:29  <Gustavo6046> wait
20:58:32  <Gustavo6046> lining drive-throughs?
20:58:35  <Gustavo6046> won't they just stop at the nearest one?
20:58:48  <_dp_> they stop at furthest
20:59:18  <Gustavo6046> ah
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21:01:09  <_dp_> stop point moves as they load so they kinda go in waves but that's still way more effecient than dead-end one
21:01:30  <Gustavo6046> ah
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21:10:05  <milek7> what'd default optimization level for ottd cmake?
21:10:38  <Gustavo6046> The Message History window seems a bit barebones. For instance, there is no way to filter messages in categories, and there is little colour highlighting to helpe ither.
21:11:16  <Gustavo6046> OpenTTD is C++, right?
21:11:25  <Gustavo6046> I wonder if I can mix that with Nim.
21:11:28  <Gustavo6046> Er, Nim with that
21:12:12  <LordAro> we'd rather you didn't
21:12:17  <LordAro> milek7: "debug"
21:12:31  <LordAro> iirc, it doesn't set a level by default
21:12:59  <Gustavo6046> Ooh
21:13:03  <Gustavo6046> LordAro: of course not :P
21:13:06  <Gustavo6046> I mean
21:13:28  <LordAro> fwiw, the windowing system is hugely complex
21:13:33  <Gustavo6046> Nim can compile to C (and in fact iirc it does that in order to link), so that could be done before compiling or something.
21:13:34  <Gustavo6046> Ah
21:13:39  <LordAro> i think it's got its own wiki page
21:13:42  <Gustavo6046> That's why I wanted a more succint way to express this kind of stuff
21:14:07  <LordAro> you're welcome to try rewriting it to be a bit nicer
21:14:21  <LordAro> but we'd probably rather you stuck to the same language :p
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21:14:56  <LordAro> adding an additional *compiler* dependency would have to have a pretty compelling reason :p
21:15:45  <Gustavo6046> Yeah
21:15:57  <Gustavo6046> No but I mean, it does not need to be
21:16:10  <Gustavo6046> The C code generated by Nim is probably as portable as Nim itself (or I guess C itself).
21:16:18  <Gustavo6046> And I assume that it could be done before commit
21:16:28  <Gustavo6046> Hm, but then contributing to that code could be kind of sad :P
21:38:02  <Gustavo6046> Can town growth traverse tunnels?
21:38:22  <_dp_> yes
21:38:44  <Gustavo6046> yey
21:38:54  <Gustavo6046> I wish it had a lesser cost per tile that way
21:39:00  <Gustavo6046> so it would be easier to unham towns
21:39:47  <Gustavo6046> I think you can tell what I mean
21:40:12  <Gustavo6046> Somehow there are no "pedestrian decorations" in the roads on the other side of the tunnel, but there are some further down, in a way that goes AROUND.
21:40:15  <Gustavo6046> Hang on
21:40:42  <_dp_> it has, 1 tunnel = 1 road tile, so you can tunnel growth pretty well
21:40:52  <Gustavo6046> lol internal server errors
21:40:54  <Gustavo6046> ah
21:40:56  <Gustavo6046>
21:46:08  <Gustavo6046> odd
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21:52:17  <Gustavo6046> Therapist: "Size 2 bridge isn't real, he can't hurt you"
21:52:19  <Gustavo6046> Size 2 bridge:
21:54:54  <Gustavo6046> Anyway
21:55:02  <Gustavo6046> How do you rate city planner me, from zero to ten?
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22:13:56  <_dp_> that looks just random :p
22:19:36  <Gustavo6046> True
22:19:48  <Gustavo6046> _dp_: this isn't real life, there won't be no drivers complaining about road network issues! :D
22:19:59  <Gustavo6046> My goal was partly to maximize efficiency, i.e. tiles that could have house, vs. tiles used by roads.
22:20:34  <Gustavo6046> So e.g. I used "corner ends" to allow huosing in diagonal cells in certain road dead ends.
22:20:40  <Gustavo6046> I guess that's similar to a modern cul-de-sac.
22:20:49  <Gustavo6046> I wonder how well a cul-de-sac layout could work with a OpenTTD town.
22:21:05  <Gustavo6046> Just lay 8 x 8 cul-de-sac units, and fund a Town in the middle!
22:22:24  <_dp_> Gustavo6046, if you want to optimize growth you need smth like this
22:22:31  <Gustavo6046> ooh
22:22:40  <_dp_> Gustavo6046, for growth your layout is crap
22:25:08  <Gustavo6046> lol
22:25:10  <Gustavo6046> _dp_: true
22:25:23  <Gustavo6046> wait
22:25:35  <Gustavo6046> don't corner roads populate digonal ground tiles?
22:26:02  <_dp_> Gustavo6046, yeah, they do now, emulator is a but outdated
22:26:03  <Gustavo6046> also, something about this layout strikes me as slightly unusual
22:26:06  <Gustavo6046>
22:26:07  <_dp_> you can enable it in settings
22:26:08  <Gustavo6046> ah
22:26:10  <Gustavo6046> okay
22:26:23  <Gustavo6046> also
22:27:34  <_dp_> that's like default layout for citybuilding
22:27:40  <_dp_> easy to build and very effecient
22:30:30  <andythenorth> oof bedtime
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22:57:52  <Gustavo6046> Why does every world I play have a town called Nanfield somewhere
22:57:56  <Gustavo6046> :P
23:01:01  <Gustavo6046> _dp_: I'm not a good cityplanner
23:01:07  <Gustavo6046> but I do put thought into it
23:01:13  <Gustavo6046> and effort
23:01:38  <Gustavo6046> The amount of obstacles you often face makes those "ideal patterns" impossible. In a similar way to how the perfect model for boarding a plane is impossible in the real world.
23:06:21  <Gustavo6046> Boarding an airplane ideally, has kind of its own science, and is explained here
23:06:23  <Gustavo6046> Anyways,
23:06:37  <_dp_> Gustavo6046, openttd is not real world, you can do pretty much everything with that layout as a base
23:06:39  <_dp_>
23:07:42  <Gustavo6046> _dp_: but with rivers and rails and stations and other obstacles -- even such things as slopes-, it becomes more difficult :P
23:08:43  <Gustavo6046> Anyway - are all the open space tiles in this town square eligible for house construction? I did my best.
23:08:44  <_dp_> not much, just weave the roads around
23:08:49  <Gustavo6046> It's ugly, but still
23:08:50  <Gustavo6046> Oh?
23:08:58  <Gustavo6046> Well, efficiency takes a hit
23:09:06  <Gustavo6046> Not to mention existing town structures
23:09:38  <Gustavo6046> Holy crap, that's a massive screen -- and an even more massive town!
23:10:31  <_dp_> as long as you don't make loops and keep just 8 roads effeciency should be alright
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23:15:09  <_dp_> another example
23:18:53  <Gustavo6046> ah
23:19:02  <Gustavo6046> loops
23:19:23  <Gustavo6046> _dp_: seeds have been sown
23:19:26  <Gustavo6046>
23:19:28  <Gustavo6046> what do you mean loops?
23:29:02  <_dp_> Gustavo6046, whole idea of that spiral layout is that if you random walk from center you can never loop back on yourself
23:29:11  <_dp_> because if town loops back it skips a day
23:30:06  <Gustavo6046> ah
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23:31:20  <Gustavo6046> _dp_: Fund Town makes it all that much harder
23:31:54  <Gustavo6046> but until it grows into the WHOLE artificial island, I find it pretty difficult it'll find any loops apart from those it generated with :P
23:32:12  <Gustavo6046> I thought it was about avoiding dead ends, too.
23:33:51  <_dp_> well, if you want max effeciency you pretty much have to bulldoze all autogenerated crap and build it anew
23:34:09  <_dp_> and yeah, if it doesn't reach the point where it loops it doesn't matter :p
23:34:26  <_dp_> dead ends too, that goes without saying
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23:35:03  <_dp_> well, loops pretty much equal dead ends, once town reaches either it skips a day
23:36:02  <_dp_> ah, no, loops are slightly better, it doesn't skip immedietaly, it justs loops around but it there is too much looping it will reach distance limit
23:37:24  <Gustavo6046> ah
23:37:46  <Gustavo6046> _dp_: here's a comparison between a town I had more room to do spirals with, and one I basically surgeried them in
23:38:07  <Gustavo6046> Seaburg:
23:38:20  <Gustavo6046> (it's a different screenshot, trust me)
23:38:26  <Gustavo6046> Lewisbridge:
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23:41:05  <_dp_> neither is even remotely close to what I posted
23:41:10  <Gustavo6046> I knowww
23:41:20  <_dp_> they're so messed up already that whole purpose of spiraling is lost
23:41:29  <Gustavo6046> yeah
23:41:48  <Gustavo6046> gosh these towns are so messed up
23:41:57  <milek7>
23:42:50  <Gustavo6046> ooh, cool!
23:43:08  <Gustavo6046> I wonder if we have VGA framebuffer support. I feel like LordAro would know.,
23:49:09  <nielsm> not directly, but SDL or Allegro probably has it (Allegro more likely)
23:49:30  <nielsm> just the Allegro drivers set is not really maintained
23:53:42  <milek7> weird, bananas seems to be broken on haiku
23:57:13  <milek7> well, network generally is broken

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