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00:03:17 <TrueBrain> you have the weirdest approve messages lately LordAro :P 00:03:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8234: Trees GUI improvements https://git.io/JfxU1 00:03:32 <LordAro> i do my best 00:04:01 <TrueBrain> almost 2 pages of pull requests, w00p 00:06:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8438: Codechange: Replace FOR_VEHICLE_ORDERS with range-based for loops https://git.io/JLMDS 00:10:14 <LordAro> anyway, here's the branch - https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/compare/master...LordAro:save_ext 00:10:31 <LordAro> i've done most of the easy reorganisation-related tidyups 00:10:45 <LordAro> a few more to do, then i'd actually have to think about it 00:10:47 <TrueBrain> how many commits?! Holy crap :D 00:11:53 <LordAro> there were more than 50 :p 00:12:00 <LordAro> i've squashed a load together 00:12:59 <TrueBrain> damn, you have been bsuy 00:13:00 <LordAro> there's only a very small number that could be pulled out and PR'd separately 00:13:23 <glx> static_assert is one of them 00:13:51 <LordAro> again, no idea if i've done it right - there was some overlap between what JGR did and what master/Peter did (saving of deques & std::strings, mostly) 00:15:48 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 00:16:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8439: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLMy3 00:17:11 <FLHerne> Hey, that's a neat idea 00:17:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7679: Content download update downloads all versions, not just required/latest https://git.io/fj9xU 00:18:29 <LordAro> hmm 00:18:45 <LordAro> think the values need some tuning 00:18:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7680: Fix #7679: Check version when comparing scripts https://git.io/JLMy8 00:18:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #7680: Fix #7679: Check version when comparing scripts https://git.io/fjHIy 00:19:07 <LordAro> 24 bridge length for a 20k city isn't *that* big 00:19:07 <TrueBrain> think this has the same issue as the other town improvement suggestsions 00:19:20 <LordAro> especially if you add newgrfs 00:19:23 <TrueBrain> they are all nice etc .. but ... doing this kind of tuning hardcoded in C++ is just asking for a constant stream of PRs :) 00:19:45 <TrueBrain> (and people disagreeing on the values :P) 00:19:49 <LordAro> hehe 00:19:55 <TrueBrain> can't we easily delegate this stuff to NewGRFs? 00:20:09 <LordAro> still though, the phrase "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" comes to mind 00:20:24 <LordAro> it's all very well planning to farm this out to grf/gs/whatever, but that might take years 00:20:33 <TrueBrain> yeah, but where is the balance? 00:20:37 <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 00:20:43 <TrueBrain> to give a counter: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/discussions/8388 00:20:50 <TrueBrain> he came up with another "solution" for the same problem 00:20:58 <TrueBrain> how do we rate one over the other? 00:21:13 <TrueBrain> (honest question btw, as I do not know) 00:21:17 <LordAro> also, float maths 00:21:40 <TrueBrain> I hope a compiler optimizes this correctly :P 00:21:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLMya 00:22:15 <LordAro> i suspect number of buildings rather than population might work better 00:22:23 <TrueBrain> and there we go ;) :P 00:22:25 <LordAro> though i don't think that count is stored anywhere... 00:22:28 <LordAro> :P 00:22:43 <TrueBrain> I don't mean this in a bad way btw, but this is so much up for taste and tuning, and thinkering 00:22:59 <TrueBrain> sure, this PR doesn't hurt anyone in any way .. but where is the line :) 00:24:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLMyi 00:24:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8438: Codechange: Replace FOR_VEHICLE_ORDERS with range-based for loops https://git.io/JLMyP 00:25:22 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i agree 00:25:33 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7745 is on the other side of the line, in my opinion 00:25:33 <LordAro> but... the work is there and has been (more or less) done 00:25:50 <LordAro> TrueBrain: but it looks so nice! 00:26:00 <TrueBrain> yes, and there is the constant friction :) 00:26:14 <TrueBrain> 7745 shows immediately that people want more changes after that 00:27:06 <TrueBrain> in case of #8439, I would say: let 2TallTayler and andy fight out what the algorithm should be and get it in there 00:27:16 <TrueBrain> small, doesn't hurt anyone, and nobody would notice, not really 00:27:45 <TrueBrain> but I already see the pitchforks being picked up because 7745 should be fine too then :P 00:28:41 <TrueBrain> all I notice that I struggle with these; mostly as those who are interested in making this moddable, don't know how, and those that know how, are too busy doing other (more important) stuff :) 00:28:53 <TrueBrain> and of course, we have all the people on the side yelling left or right :P 00:32:21 <TrueBrain> difficult to guard against past mistakes and prevent just stacking on stacking on stacking of fixes, patches, workarounds, etc :D 00:33:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8438: Codechange: Replace FOR_VEHICLE_ORDERS with range-based for loops https://git.io/JLMDS 00:34:59 <TrueBrain> I do honestly wonder what is needed to make this possible in NewGRF/GS .. might be fun to just draw that up, to see how much work it would be 00:36:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLMST 00:37:45 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLMSY 00:37:59 <TrueBrain> I am in no state to review it; but my OCD triggers just fine :P 00:38:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8438: Codechange: Replace FOR_VEHICLE_ORDERS with range-based for loops https://git.io/JLMSO 00:41:18 <TrueBrain> it should be called FreeTowns 00:41:26 <TrueBrain> they have been put in a box long enough :P 00:44:36 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLMST 00:45:27 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 00:48:56 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I guess the main reason I am more fine with the bridge PR is because it doesn't add more settings 00:49:05 <LordAro> :) 00:49:11 <LordAro> but it could! 00:49:13 <TrueBrain> I guess as soon as settings are added, it should in fact be a mod 00:49:27 <glx> there are too many settings already 00:49:38 <TrueBrain> Yes, and that is exactly the line ;) 00:49:50 <TrueBrain> It could, but it would not improve the game 00:50:20 <TrueBrain> We can have a single opinionated town AI :D 00:50:48 <TrueBrain> Having it all configurable and shit.. that should go in mods 00:50:56 <glx> I think GS can already "manage" towns if they want to 00:51:06 <TrueBrain> Not the layout 00:51:15 <glx> yeah except the layout 00:52:07 <TrueBrain> Slowly I am getting it more clear how to describe why one is a bad idea and the other is not :D 00:52:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8362: Apply some C++ love to string handling in file and config paths. https://git.io/JLMS5 00:52:39 <TrueBrain> Night guys 00:52:44 <LordAro> o/ 00:52:49 <glx> it should be possible to hook some callbacks in current town layout code 01:00:25 *** Speedy` has quit IRC 01:11:54 *** Progman has joined #openttd 01:16:45 *** gnu_jj_ has joined #openttd 01:24:07 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC 01:34:27 *** Progman has quit IRC 01:38:38 *** DasPoseidon has quit IRC 02:05:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLM7s 03:28:32 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 03:31:53 *** debdog has quit IRC 03:32:01 *** glx has quit IRC 03:38:18 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:42:22 <supermop_Home> sometimes a town is built on a tiny island (like ~6 tiles), and a longish 6-8 tile bridge to the shore is the only way it can grow at all 04:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> max length could depend on bridge max speed 06:51:36 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 06:57:36 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 07:09:35 *** Naruni has quit IRC 07:28:02 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:59:11 <andythenorth> o/ 08:09:30 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 08:46:27 <TrueBrain> helloooooooo nurse 08:53:29 *** JohnnyB has joined #openttd 08:58:16 <andythenorth> someone give TB his meds pls 08:58:18 <andythenorth> thx 08:59:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLDiy 09:00:11 <TrueBrain> sorry LordAro , seems backporting things from long ago does result in some regressions :) 09:00:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8427: Add: [NewGRF] Patch flag to test if inflation is on or off. https://git.io/JLDi9 09:08:23 *** Progman has joined #openttd 09:08:55 * andythenorth had mad idea 09:09:33 <andythenorth> nah too mad 09:09:36 * andythenorth back to work 09:09:37 <TrueBrain> be careful with that :) 09:09:48 <TrueBrain> its Sunday ... no-work day :P 09:09:56 * andythenorth back to staring into space 09:10:29 <TrueBrain> eye-balling the M1 your children are playing on, I am sure :P 09:11:12 <andythenorth> adding Steam to it currently 09:11:13 <andythenorth> not for me 09:21:34 *** nielsm has quit IRC 09:21:58 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 09:31:54 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I found a song for today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgcTvoWjZJU 09:32:32 <TrueBrain> fitting 09:39:10 *** Speedy` has joined #openttd 09:40:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] UnsuspiciousGooball commented on issue #8314: Converting railtypes under a train https://git.io/JUg2Z 09:41:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLDDO 09:42:08 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 09:42:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLDD8 09:43:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLDDz 09:46:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLDDF 09:49:44 <LordAro> given we're now on C++17, we could actually use the single argument form of static_assert 09:50:40 <LordAro> and perhaps just remove assert_compile altogether 09:51:05 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 09:52:43 <andythenorth> how many GS on bananas? 09:53:07 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 09:53:13 *** sla_ro|master2 has joined #openttd 09:53:19 <andythenorth> 41? 09:54:14 <andythenorth> 804 newgrfs I think 09:57:57 <andythenorth> lol found the pony thread https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46689&p=1182302&hilit=pony+wishes#p1182302 09:58:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLMST 09:59:35 *** JohnnyB has quit IRC 10:02:44 <LordAro> andythenorth: i like your window more than all the others 10:03:01 <TrueBrain> LordAro: doesn't "assert_msg" needs to be called? 10:03:04 <andythenorth> it tries to be one-thing-per-page 10:03:09 <TrueBrain> (it is now only defined) 10:03:24 * andythenorth gravedug this https://web.archive.org/web/20141003184501/https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/GS_Area_Control 10:03:36 <LordAro> TrueBrain: mm, it's unused "at the moment" 10:03:51 <LordAro> there might be places that would benefit from it, idk 10:03:55 <TrueBrain> maybe good to introduce at least one place that uses it? 10:04:01 <TrueBrain> just so we actually test the code :D 10:04:09 <TrueBrain> (honest question btw, I really do not know) 10:05:36 <LordAro> even jgr (in save_ext) only uses it in one place 10:05:55 <TrueBrain> owh, and you should check error(); there is some code missing in assert_msg_error :) 10:05:56 <LordAro> more of a development debug feature, i suppose 10:09:02 *** D-HUND is now known as debdog 10:10:38 <FLHerne> Maybe towns should be more likely to build a bridge if many recent building-construction attempts have failed 10:10:56 <FLHerne> But I can imagine that going horribly wrong with, say, TaI 10:11:50 <FLHerne> It limits population by causing construction checks to fail, so every town would start sprouting bridges :p 10:14:05 * andythenorth thinks interesting mischief could be made possible by giving industry grfs 256 registers of global storage, and a monthly 'whole grf' callback, and access to certain scopes, like a list of all town IDs 10:14:16 <andythenorth> vars / scopes /s 10:14:27 <FLHerne> 'interesting' 10:15:06 <TrueBrain> if Squirrel barks, it barks really good ... I now get a compile error I cannot understand :( 10:15:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLDSO 10:15:37 <andythenorth> now that I understand town storage properly...and the amount was raised...there are a lot of possibilities 10:15:55 <andythenorth> and a single cb can do an awful lot of things before returning 10:16:08 <andythenorth> at some point I guess it runs out of varaction 2 IDs though 10:16:58 <andythenorth> e.g. if I could find the towns 10:17:03 <andythenorth> I could find adjacent towns 10:17:13 <andythenorth> so I could declare 'regions', e.g. 'this region has coal mines' 10:17:27 <andythenorth> just by grouping a few towns, and storing something in a register 10:18:04 <andythenorth> this would probably have better visual results AND be more efficient AND more reliable than the current distance-based clustering checks 10:20:05 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i've used some macro magic to remove the separate assert_error_msg function entirely 10:20:15 <TrueBrain> <3 10:20:28 <TrueBrain> and I don't understand why the Squirrel magic doesn't want to compile my function :'( :'( 10:23:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLMST 10:24:19 <TrueBrain> LordAro: just still no usage, so I have no clue if your magic is valid :D But I am sure you will fix it if it turnsout to be wrong :P 10:24:46 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i tested it by putting a message in the free function below :) 10:24:50 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLDS4 10:24:54 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 10:25:07 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 10:25:23 <TrueBrain> so I change a function in a script_.hpp file to have an additional parameter 10:25:30 <TrueBrain> and Squirrel is going apeshit over it 10:25:32 <TrueBrain> owh .. wait .. 10:25:40 <TrueBrain> guess this is the first function with 6 parameters? 10:25:58 <LordAro> surely not 10:26:00 <TrueBrain> I remember there needs to be some glue to support N parameters 10:26:16 <TrueBrain> we have 5 and 10 10:26:17 <TrueBrain> not 6 10:26:22 <LordAro> ha 10:27:50 <TrueBrain> yeah, that fixes it :) 10:27:51 <TrueBrain> funny 10:28:28 <andythenorth> ok so a var listing all towns doesn't work in grf, no way to iterate over the list 10:28:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8427: Add: [NewGRF] Patch flag to test if inflation is on or off. https://git.io/JL1o6 10:28:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8438: Codechange: Replace FOR_VEHICLE_ORDERS with range-based for loops https://git.io/JLMDS 10:28:51 <andythenorth> so instead a monthly cb that lets a grf walk over every town on the map 10:29:15 <LordAro> TrueBrain: now i'm scared, what's the function with 10 parameters? 10:29:31 <TrueBrain> I dunno .. how do you grep on something like that :P 10:31:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8440: Various minor standalone codechanges stolen from JGR https://git.io/JLMST 10:31:50 <LordAro> 50 PRs \o/ 10:32:04 <TrueBrain> finally :D 10:34:03 <andythenorth> nice 10:34:49 <andythenorth> I close this one? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7000 10:35:12 <TrueBrain> if you can articulate sufficiently why, yes. Otherwise, no. 10:36:34 <andythenorth> I have nothing beyond "stale" 10:36:38 <TrueBrain> so no 10:36:41 <andythenorth> probably not enough 10:36:53 <TrueBrain> no clue why you are all of a sudden so trigger-happy :) 10:37:15 <andythenorth> 49 is better than 50 10:37:27 <andythenorth> and that one was my fault 10:37:32 <andythenorth> so I could clean up my mess 10:37:39 <TrueBrain> and you expect that to go well ... how exactly, with our opinionated members of this community? :D 10:37:59 <andythenorth> pff...I don't see any working test grfs except mine 10:38:04 <andythenorth> decisions get made by those who turn up 10:38:17 <andythenorth> it's easy to demand, it's less easy to provide test cases 10:39:19 <andythenorth> eh my test grf is not attached 10:39:19 <andythenorth> FAIL 10:40:09 <TrueBrain> haha 10:40:33 <FLHerne> That one looks like death through overcomplication 10:40:43 <FLHerne> The original thing is obviously a good idea? 10:40:55 <andythenorth> it solves a reported issue 10:41:05 <andythenorth> and I had a working test case for it 10:41:21 <FLHerne> Then it got all these other weird semi-related lookups tacked onto it, and now it isn't 10:41:25 <andythenorth> alternatively, players should just not use railtype grfs other than Termite 10:41:34 <andythenorth> and my problem goes away 10:41:44 * andythenorth purely selfish here, otherwise nothing gets done :) 10:42:13 <andythenorth> so I could disable Iron Horse if railtype grfs are found 10:42:16 <andythenorth> or send a message 10:43:15 <andythenorth> I should remove this commented code though :D https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/src/templates/properties.pynml#L25 10:43:21 <andythenorth> at least to a branch or something 10:46:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #8441: Codechange: Replace assert_compile macro with static_assert https://git.io/JLD9I 10:47:00 <LordAro> 51 PRs \o/ 10:47:20 <andythenorth> LordAro this one looks pretty cool https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8006 10:47:54 <LordAro> mm, should look at it again 10:49:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8441: Codechange: Replace assert_compile macro with static_assert https://git.io/JLD9q 10:49:25 <TrueBrain> expecting anyone to review that is silly :P 10:49:59 <LordAro> it was made with `sed -i 's/assert_compile/static_assert/' src/*.*` :p 10:50:29 <TrueBrain> I trust you are capable, yes ;) 10:55:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8441: Codechange: Replace assert_compile macro with static_assert https://git.io/JLD9I 10:55:52 <LordAro> 50 PRs \o/ 10:55:55 <LordAro> alright i'll stop nwo 10:55:57 <LordAro> now 10:58:14 <andythenorth> dear chrome, please give back CPU 10:58:19 <andythenorth> 1000% usage is excessive 10:59:18 <TrueBrain> LordAro: feel free to continue ;) 10:59:23 <TrueBrain> a number is just a number :D 11:15:28 <andythenorth> my number today is 9 11:19:26 <LordAro> just 9? 11:20:29 <andythenorth> for today yes 11:20:35 <FLHerne> 9 seems excessive really 11:20:43 <FLHerne> I find 7 is more than enough 11:20:54 <andythenorth> I have contingency 11:21:04 <andythenorth> so does newgrf run before GS at map gen? 11:21:14 <andythenorth> hmm, probably doesn't matter 11:21:41 <andythenorth> IFF FIRS could designate arbitrary towns as "this is a steeltown" 11:21:50 <andythenorth> and GS could read that from the town registers 11:22:15 <andythenorth> then a patched Silicon Valley GS could be made to understand FIRS Steeltown 11:22:23 <andythenorth> enabling goals 11:22:46 <andythenorth> without requiring the GS to maintain a list of all cargos and industries in all FIRS versions, to detect the grf by fingerprinting 11:26:57 *** Progman has quit IRC 11:27:16 *** sla_ro|master2 has quit IRC 11:27:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc dismissed a review for pull request #8362: Apply some C++ love to string handling in file and config paths. https://git.io/JLMS5 11:27:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8362: Apply some C++ love to string handling in file and config paths. https://git.io/JIW6A 11:27:35 <michi_cc> Somebody (most likely me) merged some conflicts 11:28:03 <LordAro> michi_cc: ! 11:29:17 <TrueBrain> I am reading town code ... turns out, that putting things on random-layout, does .. weird stuff :P 11:29:25 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: I find it interesting that you are advocating for configurable/modabble/etc for OTTD while at the same time being very much opinionated about what e.g. TrueWiki should and should not do. 11:29:55 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I did exactly the same there, in case it is an honest question (I cannot always tell, sorry :D) 11:30:10 <michi_cc> Note: I don't mean that in any way negative, it's just an interesting dichotomy 11:30:14 <TrueBrain> I created wikitexthtml, which has no opinion and just provide wiki-passthrough 11:30:24 <TrueBrain> truewiki is the "mod" on top of wikitexthtml, with a very strong opinion :) 11:31:13 <TrueBrain> on the other axis: having a strong opinion is exactly why I favour moddability in base layers, as that allows other people to have a strong opinion too 11:31:21 <TrueBrain> as I will never claim my opinion is the only correct one :D 11:31:38 <michi_cc> OpenTTD is truewiki and not wikitexthtml though. For a fully modabble game based on an isometric 2D world, I'd never use OTTD as the base for. 11:31:56 <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> as I will never claim my opinion is the only correct one :D <- is that other's are wrong :P 11:31:58 <TrueBrain> I would argue it is something in-between 11:33:10 <michi_cc> Taken to its extreme hyperbole, the question comes down to: Do we want to make a game or a game framework? 11:33:10 <andythenorth> if there could be a needle and it pointed to 'less moddable' or 'more moddable 11:33:11 <TrueBrain> well, no, let me put that different: either OpenTTD should be a heavily opinionated game, or it should move as much as (sanely) possible to mods 11:33:18 <andythenorth> 'more moddable' is better 11:33:26 <andythenorth> 100% moddable is making a false goal IMHO 11:33:57 <andythenorth> like...it's already GPL, if you want 100% moddable learn C++, as JGR proves nicely 11:34:08 <andythenorth> but 80-90% moddable? Pretty healthy 11:34:10 <TrueBrain> and the other difference I see in what you write and how I feel about the game, has more to do with: what is moddable. Of course you could take it to an extreme, and only supply a isometric 2d engine, which Unity does for example 11:34:46 <andythenorth> michi_cc I went looking into things like roblox a bit to see if we wanted to make a game framework; I thought probably not 11:34:46 <TrueBrain> take for example town (hot topic :D), this is full of personal flavor and playstyle 11:34:59 <TrueBrain> we can have an opinion about it, but so many others do too 11:35:04 <andythenorth> but roblox is opinionated as a game framework even 11:35:05 <TrueBrain> so pushing these kind of things to mods, is good 11:35:12 <TrueBrain> moving a Pathfinder to a mod? I would argue that is too far 11:35:19 <TrueBrain> this is what I mean with: OpenTTD is somewhere in between 11:35:23 <TrueBrain> supply a base game which is solid 11:35:38 <TrueBrain> and allowing extension by anyone with a different intake on economy, trains, towns, trees, ... 11:36:02 <TrueBrain> this is not my own concept btw, just to be clear. Games like Factorio do also exactly that :) 11:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> my explorer car seems to have glitched through the world... am i actually playing astroneer? :p 11:36:26 * andythenorth considers listing "things we can mod already" and "things we can't" ;P 11:36:36 <michi_cc> There would still be a need to provide a default C++ behaviour though, unless we really start shipping a set of NewGRFs/Scripts which are auto-activated(!). 11:36:55 <andythenorth> that was my mad idea earlier today 11:36:59 <TrueBrain> I am fine with both, really 11:36:59 <andythenorth> I didn't propose it, too mad 11:37:19 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: but I fully agree, we have to supply a base game 11:37:25 <TrueBrain> and it has to be a game, and it has to be playable 11:37:25 <andythenorth> literally remove default C++ behaviour, delegate to a bundled mod, and provide a path for old savegames to use the mod 11:37:32 * andythenorth too crazy 11:37:52 <TrueBrain> whether the default game is, like factorio, just a mod, or hardcoded in C++ .. honestly, that is tomato tomato for me :) 11:38:03 <LordAro> well that's what we do already with the basesets 11:38:43 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: in essence, what it comes down to for me: if you see this "town bridge length", as example: within 24 hour 4 people had completely different ideas how that should be done. And I am all in for trying out all 4 :) 11:39:25 <michi_cc> Well, having some logic for length of town bridges does not prohibit some mod interface, but just not having any logic at all just makes a poor game. Most players will not start with mods right from the beginning. 11:39:36 <TrueBrain> and sure I have an opinion how I think it should be done, which I show with TrueWiki, but I also very much like if others give it their spin (based on wikitexthtml, as example) :D 11:39:47 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: exactly! 11:39:55 <TrueBrain> and we have logic currently .. we can tune that, that is also fine 11:40:04 <TrueBrain> but currently we run in circles that: we should do A, no B, no C, no D 11:40:12 <TrueBrain> and we will never settle on any of them :) 11:40:40 <michi_cc> So if there are 4 possible ideas, we still have to select one (possibly somewhat dictatorially). 11:40:58 <TrueBrain> well, that is the other road OpenTTD can take: don't make things moddable, and just pick what-ever we fancy most 11:41:00 <TrueBrain> it is perfectly legit 11:41:07 <TrueBrain> it will upset some people, but .. shrug 11:41:11 <TrueBrain> what ever we do, we will upset people :P 11:41:34 <TrueBrain> personally, I would rather see we can have all 4 via mods, and we drag in the base game which ever we fancy most 11:41:41 <michi_cc> We can still make it modabble, but that should not stop us from changing the default behaviour. 11:41:43 <Wolf01> Let people upset themselves democratically then 11:41:55 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: we say the same :) Only the order of execution most likely differs ;) 11:42:07 <andythenorth> michi_cc I have one -1 point to "that should not stop us from changing the default behaviour" 11:42:16 <andythenorth> discussing those things is boring and saps motivation? 11:42:21 <TrueBrain> I have absolutely nothing against the bridge length PR for example; I just wish there was some form of consensus it is an improvement :) 11:42:27 <andythenorth> I agree, game needs good default behaviours 11:42:33 <andythenorth> but getting there is really hard 11:42:44 <andythenorth> like...we won't ship any trams either, because it's social politics 11:42:49 <Eddi|zuHause> imho we need to either decide "let's do all this in C++" or figure out a way to bundle carefully selected newgrfs with the base game 11:42:50 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: for me, a form of voting would already help greatly 11:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and not discuss the same thing again for every PR 11:43:28 <andythenorth> look at this from a different frame 11:43:39 <andythenorth> someone proposes an industry PR, what do we do? 11:43:39 <michi_cc> Opinion: I like the bridge length by town size. I concur that it might limit island towns, but I don't see why every town must be able to grow to a mega-city. 11:43:53 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I agree with that opinion 11:43:58 <LordAro> ^ 11:44:24 <TrueBrain> now if we could do this more often, we can make some progress there :) 11:44:44 <TrueBrain> (and yes, I am very much in favour of doing this case-by-case .. we will learn each others opinion quickly enough) 11:44:57 <TrueBrain> so first few PRs can be a bit annoying .. but after a few, it really is easy 11:45:14 <TrueBrain> (design by consensus) 11:45:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the island-town is a non-issue, the player can always build a bridge to help the town grow. also, we might consider a minimum area for the random town generator 11:45:22 <michi_cc> Also, ugh OSX again :( 11:45:37 <LordAro> :( 11:45:56 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: in fact, maybe we should do another round on settings some time soon, and just make an opinion on a good default, and remove the setting :P 11:45:59 <TrueBrain> we could do with less settings :D 11:46:02 <andythenorth> +1 11:46:21 <TrueBrain> this game does not need more settings :) 11:47:09 <TrueBrain> btw, michi_cc , this is already part of our project goals: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#project-goals 11:47:10 <LordAro> if we remove some settings, we can start adding new ones again! 11:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that brings me back to an old question: can we include the level crossing patch without a setting, that doesn't immediately crash all RVs on an existing savegame? 11:47:36 <andythenorth> this could be seen as a failure, but eventually this has been solved in newgrf https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/2664 11:47:37 <Wolf01> Disable it on old saves 11:47:40 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: If you code it properly :p 11:47:57 <TrueBrain> LordAro: NO 11:47:58 <TrueBrain> :P 11:48:24 <michi_cc> Heck, saveload code could, in the exreme case, even teleport the road vehicle to before or after the level crossing. 11:48:46 <TrueBrain> if it is a goal, we can solve it, basically :) 11:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: well, the question is what's "properly". i changed the logic so that if a vehicle is already on a level crossing, it can enter the next level crossing tile even if the level crossing is closed 11:49:20 <TrueBrain> btw, if the bridge-length PR would introduce a setting so someone can configure what the ratio population vs bridge-length would be, I would not like it very much; just to give a counter example :) 11:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that's kinda the core functionality 11:49:33 <michi_cc> Yes, so teleport the vehicles in AfterLoadGame to a save position. 11:49:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds complicated 11:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> might end up with multiple vehicles on the same position 11:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno the consequences of that 11:51:08 <Wolf01> Vehicles can't crash with each others, and we still have the quantum effect on queues sometimes 11:51:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8362: Apply some C++ love to string handling in file and config paths. https://git.io/JIW6A 11:52:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that leaves corner cases where there is no safe position. like someone sent a car on the level crossing, and deleted all incoming roads 11:52:48 <michi_cc> Maybe crash, maybe no crash. Simply ignore it. 11:52:59 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: tnx btw for that question; I really appreciate a discussion of this form :) 11:53:23 <michi_cc> Or even in that case, if a vehicle is already stopped, don't start it again until the level crossing in front is free. 11:53:46 <michi_cc> If the vehicle then gets hit by a train on the behind track, just don't care at all. 11:53:58 *** Samu has joined #openttd 11:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> might be tricky to detect "stopped", except speed=0 12:07:39 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 12:11:07 <andythenorth> IRL the whole damn crossing gets closed :) 12:11:21 <andythenorth> but IRL and games eh 12:12:10 * andythenorth has no idea how the patch works, but crossings -> bridges is a solution :) 12:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the patch does just that. treats the whole crossing as closed 12:12:34 <andythenorth> hurrah 12:12:45 <andythenorth> and then vehicles already in the crossing...have rolled the dice as to death? 12:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> not if you set signals far away enough 12:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is player error. 12:13:34 <andythenorth> I never do, due to signal headways, but other players exist :D 12:13:49 <andythenorth> oooh....special crossing trigger signal? 12:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> only problem is old savegame, where a vehicle previously waited in the middle of the crossing 12:14:01 <andythenorth> PBS forward reservation signal :P 12:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause> no special signal, just the regular PBS reservation 12:14:23 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> but that is player error. <- that's why we should have the yellow state signal with look-ahead :P 12:14:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8362: Apply some C++ love to string handling in file and config paths. https://git.io/JLDQb 12:14:40 <andythenorth> "I would like to reserve a path this far ahead if possible" 12:14:45 <andythenorth> this is not the topic though :) 12:14:48 <andythenorth> let's not derail 12:14:50 <andythenorth> sorry 12:15:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: imho we don't need any of that, we just need a concept of "braking distance", and extend the reservation if it's shorter than that 12:15:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause loading the savegame just stops the vehicles? 12:15:37 <Wolf01> SPAD? 12:16:04 <andythenorth> hmm, if a grf has changed vehicle length, ALL vehicles of that type are stopped 12:16:19 <Wolf01> BTW, don't fix players bad play style 12:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> no. we can still have emergency braking, if the player messes with reserved tracks 12:16:25 <andythenorth> so stop all trains and RVs on loading save if vehicles in crossings? 12:16:30 <andythenorth> failsafe 12:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sounds like a terrible solution 12:16:48 <Wolf01> But don't encourage it too (like I already said my thoughts about the auto remove signals) 12:17:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause I think it would be annoying, but it is a solution 12:17:19 <andythenorth> others would be...? 12:18:24 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Update and PR that to current master, and I might be persuaded to look at the saveload problem. 12:19:11 <Wolf01> If the crossing patch could replicate at least the old behaviour in edge cases I would be fine with that, currently if a vehicle manages to get stopped over a crossing because the next one is closed it's right to let it happen too with the patch when loading an old save 12:19:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8362: Apply some C++ love to string handling in file and config paths. https://git.io/JIW6A 12:20:10 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 12:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that introduces odd corner cases in the code, which seems unclean 12:20:43 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 12:21:44 <andythenorth> teleport all problem vehicles to nearest connected road depot and stop them? 12:21:45 <Wolf01> Why? The vehicle is stopped, keep it stopped in the middle of a 6 track main line until the whole crossing clears, if it gets hit... it gets hit 12:21:50 <andythenorth> failsafe 12:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: like i said, there is no concept of "stopped" 12:22:30 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 12:22:49 <Wolf01> Maybe we should address that before this patch? 12:23:25 <andythenorth> what outcome are we trying to prevent? 12:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it's needed 12:23:28 <michi_cc> Wolf01: There's nothing to address there, a crossings patch just needs appropriate AfterLoadGame conversion code. 12:24:21 * andythenorth clarifies, what outcome are trying to prevent when loading an existing save? 12:24:56 <michi_cc> Just like the fixup e.g. when we changed train center position. 12:26:14 <michi_cc> The really interesing thing about that crossings patch is that it would be a good base to build diagonal (well, straight track in OTTD speak :) level crossings on. 12:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i have some of that work done 12:26:40 <andythenorth> and that would be nice to have 12:26:48 <andythenorth> I tested that diagonal patch 12:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc it was functional, but lacked the drawing part 12:27:19 <andythenorth> it would require a newgrf railtypes update? But that would be fine? 12:27:55 <michi_cc> So, get your virtual I-have-a-patch-peter out and update your patches (bugs and everything included), and then we can see how to fix it up into something nice :) 12:28:43 <andythenorth> good feature: not much to debate, clear improvement, no settings needed, minimal newgrf complication 12:32:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLD74 12:34:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLD7u 12:34:24 *** JGR has joined #openttd 12:34:38 <JGR> Which crossing patch are you referring to? 12:34:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc requested changes for pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLD72 12:35:32 <michi_cc> Close/open adjacent corossing all at once. 12:36:36 * andythenorth looks for it in forums 12:37:03 <JGR> Yes, I've got that in my branch, it doesn't by itself stop vehicles from being destroyed 12:37:16 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=46091 12:37:33 <FLHerne> It does work a lot better for double-track lines though 12:38:11 <JGR> I was a bit confused by talk of teleporting vehicles, etc. 12:38:24 <FLHerne> And for anything more, either behaviour sucks enough that no-one builds that 12:39:25 <michi_cc> The teleporting was about savegame conversion, e.g. how you handle vehicles currently stopped at a crossing in the middle of adjacent crossings. 12:39:39 <FLHerne> JGR: IIRC, the issue was in the first seconds of a game that was created without the patch, when vehicles are already part-way across a crossing that they wouldn't have been allowed onto with the patch 12:39:51 <LordAro> fun thing i've just found from looking at the aircraft code - it's the plane's shadow that carries mail 12:40:14 <FLHerne> So they continue and get squashed 12:40:45 <TrueBrain> LordAro: lol! Start a blog about these things :D 12:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: quick! add a 3rd cargo bay for helicopters that gets carried in the rotor :p 12:42:38 <andythenorth> LordAro this is why I want wakes for ships :P 12:43:09 <andythenorth> and why the hovercraft patch needed shadows :P 12:43:15 <JGR> For savegame conversion, if the savegame is pre adjacent crossing, it would be loaded with the setting off 12:43:27 <andythenorth> I did think of doing one of those horrible roundup type blogs 12:43:28 <JGR> (At least in my branch). 12:43:33 <andythenorth> we have done craploads of stuff recently 12:43:39 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: :D 12:43:56 <michi_cc> The discussion before that was kinda about not adding even more settings for more stuff. 12:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> JGR: the idea was to have no setting 12:44:12 <JGR> I know, I'm just looking through my own code for this now 12:44:37 <michi_cc> If you have a setting, savegame conversion is indeed trivial :) 12:45:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but then we'd continue the endless discussion about whether we really need a setting for that :p 12:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> oh man, the level crossing stuff is still in hg :p 12:47:58 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Setting, but hidden from users? 12:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: that would prevent them from manually changing it for their old savegames 12:48:44 <FLHerne> Well, yes 12:49:12 <JGR> Did a quick test in my branch, turning the setting from off to on (equivalent to the savegame conversion case) does not do the adjacent crossing extension immediately, that is only done when a train next approaches a level crossing with the setting on 12:49:17 <FLHerne> Somehow apply the old behaviour to vehicles that are on a crossing until they've left it? 12:49:30 <JGR> So vehicles waiting part way across are OK 12:49:35 <andythenorth> if only there was like an existing PP...where we could test this :) 12:50:23 <JGR> However, if a second train approaches a crossing where the vehicle part way across is parked, the road vehicle immediately starts moving and crashes into whatever is on the next track :( 12:50:52 <JGR> Never thought of that corner case before 12:50:56 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly, that's the kind of problem that we're trying to solve 12:51:44 * andythenorth wonders how many multi-track crossings exist in savegames :) 12:51:57 <JGR> I've got lots in my games 12:52:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8442: Feature: allow SE and GS to define spacing between road layouts of towns https://git.io/JLD5v 12:52:07 <andythenorth> I never use them, they destroy vehicles :D 12:52:08 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: to maybe confuse you more, ^^ :) 12:52:12 <TrueBrain> well, not what andythenorth says :P 12:52:38 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: for me, that PR is the balance between "making it moddable" and "hardcoded in C++"; curious to what you think :) 12:52:39 <JGR> In my branch I've got another setting for safer level crossings so that road vehicles don't get flattened 12:53:08 <JGR> Level crossings are promoted to PBS and reservations are only possible when the crossing is clear 12:54:53 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Idea is good. People will ask about how to change it for mapgen towns on new game, though. 12:55:46 <michi_cc> Oh, and you've been bitten by the recent assert_compile PR :) 12:55:58 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: which is why I almost didn't implement the GS/SE part ;) 12:56:07 <TrueBrain> yeah, there is a lot more wrong with this PR, so I am not too bothered about that :P 12:57:28 <michi_cc> Can the WASM builds to AI now (i.e. preview for #7890)? 12:57:34 <TrueBrain> after rebase, yes 12:58:43 <michi_cc> Is 19 hours ago good? 12:59:03 <TrueBrain> honestly, dunno .. time is a bit blurry these days :D 12:59:21 <michi_cc> (I could of course pull the PR and test locally, but....) 12:59:29 <michi_cc> lazy :) 12:59:37 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/e0b953b80404b37cc5b85a2b88ce0c548ebbc2c8 is needed 12:59:52 <michi_cc> 2 days ago, let's try. 12:59:54 <Wolf01> andythenorth: one day I'll ask you to teach me grf... not the graphics part, I'm totally denied for that, but the programming part to add features to the game :P 13:00:01 <TrueBrain> and indeed, just try :P 13:00:15 <andythenorth> Wolf01 don't ask me, I have all the wrong ideas :) 13:00:24 <TrueBrain> but regarding my PR, michi_cc , in your opinion should we already add the settings in the newgame window? Or is it fine that we predefine an opinion of that in there? :) 13:01:16 <andythenorth> Wolf01 first one writes a set of python (or PHP or .net or something) classes, and stays as far away from nml as possible 13:01:44 <michi_cc> Well, what I mean is that people will ask how to change it for each individual town after they've clicked 'new game'. "Use the scenario editor" can very well be a valid answer for that. 13:01:59 <TrueBrain> okay, I can work with that :) 13:03:00 <andythenorth> ha ha 13:03:09 <andythenorth> deliver different cargos to the town to change the grid setting 13:03:15 <andythenorth> side channel :P 13:03:24 <FLHerne> JGR: So road vehicles will force the protecting rail signal to be red? 13:03:54 <andythenorth> town-grid-setting new objects, to build under town sign 13:04:09 <LordAro> JGR: i've fixed the aircraft movement issue :) now to look at the crash... 13:04:09 <Wolf01> andythenorth: that's one of the worst ideas I ever heard of... but I like it 13:04:31 <Wolf01> It's like "you are what you eat" 13:04:37 <andythenorth> dedicated roadtypes, overbuild road at town sign to change grid spacing 13:04:39 <andythenorth> side channels :P 13:05:30 <michi_cc> So OTTD would get, in UK terms, AFBCL level crossings with that patch? 13:06:43 <michi_cc> andythenorth: OTTD SPECTRE? 13:06:59 <JGR> FLHerne: The protecting signal is promoted to PBS in the same way as mixed PBS/non-PBS blocks, the PBS reservation only succeeds if the crossing is clear, I'm trying to find the commit 13:07:40 <Eddi|zuHause> JGR: i imagine that causes unnecessary train slowdowns in a lot of cases 13:08:16 <michi_cc> It is especially quite incompatible with the "newbie" one train per line, no signals variant. 13:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i've seen people playing that way for decades :p 13:08:56 <JGR> It does, but for me at least it's better than absurd levels of carnage 13:09:09 <JGR> https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches/commit/0acb4fdd2f94fa4a241600500f4b08552188e10e 13:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> JGR: it would be better if paired with some way to reserve additional segments ahead of time 13:09:45 <andythenorth> so 8442 needs a test GS? 13:10:19 <JGR> The issue is that a reservation needs to end somewhere, it can't just end in the middle of a track section 13:10:40 <JGR> That would cause all sorts of deadlocks 13:13:07 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but if you could tell the train to (try to) reserve 2 signals ahead, and continue if succeding for at least 1 signal, then it could mark the crossing as "about to close" while still travelling at full speed to the next signal, hoping that the crossing has cleared by then 13:15:37 <JGR> That would work, you would effectively need two types of PBS reservation 13:15:47 <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jalSvx8cz7M 13:17:01 *** DasPoseidon has joined #openttd 13:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that same way you could give trains a priority 13:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause> we did some tests with that concept a few years ago, but it didn't really work out 13:21:31 <JGR> Hmm, might try and experiment with that a bit later 13:24:43 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the main issues was, if the 2nd reservation ever fails, how and when do you tell it to try again? 13:26:40 <JGR> Presumably as the train approaches or is waiting at the second signal 13:27:57 * andythenorth has made TEGS https://github.com/andythenorth/town-experiments-GS 13:28:02 <andythenorth> NFI what to do next? 13:28:39 * andythenorth guesses there must be event loops or something? 13:28:43 <andythenorth> game start? 13:30:39 * andythenorth finds it 13:31:01 <andythenorth> town layout from 8442 is a setting, will be in savegame, yes? 13:31:06 <andythenorth> I don't have to hold the state in the GS? 13:31:20 *** glx has joined #openttd 13:31:20 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 13:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, weird. seems my patch removed a line about playing the level crossing sound, but i don't see it re-added anywhere 13:34:47 <andythenorth> can you cherrypick that single line please :P 13:34:56 <andythenorth> crossing bells :P 13:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i only noticed because that line conflicted, because master now has it guarded by a "if (_settings_client.sound.ambient)" 13:37:35 <andythenorth> valid ways to reload a GS? newgame, or close the client and restart? 13:37:41 <andythenorth> there's no way to change the GS on a savegame? 13:38:26 <Samu> strange, i cant create savegames anymore 13:39:30 <Samu> it says it's saving, then when i was looking to load it, it's not there 13:40:38 <LordAro> Samu: which version? 13:41:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8442: Feature: allow SE and GS to define spacing between road layouts of towns https://git.io/JLDdM 13:41:12 <Samu> master mb408fe77f7 13:41:17 <LordAro> michi_cc: ^ might have broken something :) 13:42:29 <glx> Samu: checked if the file is somewhere else ? 13:43:32 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I fail to see how your comment is constructive? Not sure what you try to gain? 13:43:45 <TrueBrain> (honest question; I am puzzled) 13:43:57 <michi_cc> Let's check... 13:44:01 <Samu> this is even weirder now [img]https://i.imgur.com/udD6Pny.png[/img] 13:44:20 <Samu> im saving as 123, and it says it already exists 13:44:26 <frosch123> i am just as puzzled. that PR makes it sound as if the only problem with #7745 is adding more settings. and it tries to solve that by hiding them? 13:44:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7890: Fix #6452: Reset only editable and visible settings from GUI https://git.io/JLDdb 13:44:29 <Samu> but it doesn't list any 123 13:44:55 <TrueBrain> frosch123: if you are puzzled, stop at the question; you now just put down a reply that reads as: this is bullshit. You most likely don't mean that, but it reads kinda blunt :D 13:45:30 <TrueBrain> (which makes me have to defend myself, instead of having an discussion if this is something what we want ;) ) 13:45:35 <JGR> @andythenorth: basically the only thing you can do to a GS in a savegame in trunk is remove it. It makes GSs rather less useful than they could be unfortunately. 13:45:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8442: Feature: allow SE and GS to define spacing between road layouts of towns https://git.io/JLDdj 13:46:02 <andythenorth> JGR I have your PP running here.... 13:46:23 <frosch123> TrueBrain: should i just have written a "why?". i have no idea 13:46:42 <glx> Samu: that's why I asked if you check the file wasn't somewhere else 13:46:59 <Samu> im trying to find for 123 in my C: now :p 13:47:32 <JGR> andythenorth, try setting gui.ai_developer_tools to on 13:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i seem to have messed up pre-commit hooks. when i type "git commit <stuff>" it tells me "don't run this script from the command line" 13:48:29 <andythenorth> JGR 'on' or 'true' 13:48:32 * andythenorth assumes true 13:48:35 <frosch123> TrueBrain: reworded, better? 13:48:37 <glx> too old version of the scripts Eddi|zuHause ? 13:48:46 <TrueBrain> frosch123: a lot, honestly :) 13:48:50 <glx> I think git used to expose a variable 13:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: very likely (it seems it checks GIT_DIR, but it is not set?) 13:48:56 <JGR> 'on' and 'true' should do the same thing 13:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: how do i update 13:49:49 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8442: Feature: allow SE and GS to define spacing between road layouts of towns https://git.io/JLDFI 13:50:04 <glx> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks <-- CI use this 13:50:50 <frosch123> TrueBrain: if you like the core of #7745, then reduce it to just that. add the settings, but restrict them to range (<=3) that gives the same ooptions as before 13:50:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8442: Feature: allow SE and GS to define spacing between road layouts of towns https://git.io/JLDFt 13:51:13 <TrueBrain> I do not like the setting part; I am fine with the dropdown of 4 choices :) 13:51:23 <glx> the important change being https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks/commit/07f936d66047beed20f41289a730965c08287be8 Eddi|zuHause 13:51:26 <TrueBrain> but I hope I worded that in my comment, that there we clearly differ in opinion :D 13:51:35 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: yes, i'm pretty sure i imported that way back 13:51:54 <andythenorth> JGR thanks, I have some flag icons and breakpoint options now :D 13:52:21 <andythenorth> reloading GS I guess is out of scope? 13:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there may be some debug commands buried somewhere. who knows 13:54:01 <andythenorth> @seen Zuu :P 13:54:01 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: seen [<channel>] <nick> 13:54:04 <andythenorth> nope 13:54:24 <JGR> You should be able to remove it and re-add it from the AI/GS settings window 13:55:06 <andythenorth> there is a 'Reload AI' button for the GS, but disabled 13:55:13 <andythenorth> oh I see yes 13:55:35 <andythenorth> ok good that works thanks :) 13:56:14 <Samu> glx, found them [img]https://i.imgur.com/MXmVJiH.png[/img] 13:56:40 <Samu> it was saving in the parent directory, and added "save" as the name before the actual name 13:56:46 <Eddi|zuHause> alright, seems i found where i had that checkout :) 13:57:32 <glx> oh I spot a nice missing path separator 13:59:23 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8443: Fix 65f65ad2: Missing path seperator that fell over a cliff. https://git.io/JLDF8 14:00:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8443: Fix 65f65ad2: Missing path seperator that fell over a cliff. https://git.io/JLDFR 14:02:54 <andythenorth> BBLs 14:02:56 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 14:05:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7890: Fix #6452: Reset only editable and visible settings from GUI https://git.io/Jexqi 14:07:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8443: Fix 65f65ad2: Missing path separator that fell over a cliff. https://git.io/JLDF8 14:08:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] twpol updated pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JklGO 14:10:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] twpol commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLDFQ 14:12:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z opened pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large cro… https://git.io/JLDFp 14:13:43 *** JGR has quit IRC 14:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i hope i didn't miss anything 14:15:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8442: Feature: allow SE and GS to define spacing between road layouts of towns https://git.io/JLDbI 14:25:43 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: It passed the CI at least, and I've activated preview mode. 14:27:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] twpol updated pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JklGO 14:30:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large cro… https://git.io/JLDb7 14:32:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large cro… https://git.io/JLDbd 14:44:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8442: Feature: allow SE and GS to define spacing between road layouts of towns https://git.io/JLDNY 14:44:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #8442: Feature: allow SE and GS to define spacing between road layouts of towns https://git.io/JLD5v 14:51:54 <frosch123> hmm. i write a new wiki page, and truewiki reports no errors. something must be broken 14:52:01 <TrueBrain> :o 14:52:05 <TrueBrain> let me get right on that :D 14:55:50 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Development/Design%20Drafts/Scripts/Capability-based%20API <- wrote new BS :) 14:56:19 <frosch123> hmm, need to start baking now 14:56:36 <TrueBrain> :o 14:56:39 <TrueBrain> that is a lot of writing :D 14:56:41 <TrueBrain> nice frosch123 :D 14:58:18 <TrueBrain> pretty solid idea; it is either that, or the inverse: make GS instances smaller and operate on a single thing. As in, 1 GS script can implement a TownAI, a GoalAI, etc, and they are assigned to a Town / Game on startup 14:58:39 <TrueBrain> well, that sentence didn't really make sense :P 14:58:49 <TrueBrain> but I agree, baking time!! :D 14:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i've not dived deep into that topic, but it would make a few things easier if every town had a separate town personality instance 15:06:39 <supermop_Home> hmm no andy 15:14:24 <supermop_Home> town ais? 15:15:10 <supermop_Home> maybe if towns had some rudimentary way to decide / prioritize their efforts 15:15:41 <supermop_Home> like if a long bridge costs the town, they only decide to build it if they have no choice 15:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> things like non-square grids (e.g. 3x4), or town zones in non-concentric circles 15:17:38 <Samu> 64000 towns say no 15:17:45 *** Gustavo6046 is now known as Guest9232 15:17:48 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 15:18:21 *** Guest9232 has quit IRC 15:18:59 <Eddi|zuHause> or, offering different player interaction methods (like where advertising campaigns are now) 15:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> varying local governments' reaction on player terraforming 15:20:27 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on which party is in charge, cutting down trees may be forbidden, or different types of subsidies are available 15:20:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #8037: Crash when Reloading AI in single player https://git.io/Jv1m2 15:22:29 <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause towns that grow wider with more low density buildings, versus those that grow denser ? 15:23:11 <supermop_Home> i guess prioritizing trying to grow on the edge of town in low town zone vs trying to replace buildings near the center 15:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, things that TaI once attempted to do via NewGRF 15:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> also, more flexible approach to the town/city growth speed difference 15:25:42 <Eddi|zuHause> problem with doing all this in GS is that GS has limited number of commands it can run per tick, so it doesn't scale well with large number of towns 15:28:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8037: Crash when Reloading AI in single player https://git.io/Jv1m2 15:44:59 <michi_cc> The GS instance per town would mostly resovle the command limit, at least for towns. Just to replace it with a memory footprint per town :( 15:45:06 *** gooball has joined #openttd 15:47:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #8037: Crash when Reloading AI in single player https://git.io/Jv1m2 15:47:18 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 15:50:06 *** gooball has quit IRC 15:50:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8037: Crash when Reloading AI in single player https://git.io/Jv1m2 15:56:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLDp8 15:58:06 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 16:00:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #8037: Crash when Reloading AI in single player https://git.io/Jv1m2 16:04:49 <andythenorth> Samu maybe you could write an AI to test if this deadlocks :) https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8342 16:06:25 <Samu> hmm, my AI actually uses shared orders 16:07:51 <andythenorth> I don't know if 'auto-separate' is exposed to AIs in that patch (I didn't look) 16:08:35 <Samu> looks like it's not 16:11:23 <Samu> hmm my AI attaches airports with bus stations, i wonder how this auto-separation behaves in this case 16:11:29 <Samu> let's test it 16:23:07 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:24:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLDhW 16:24:25 <Samu> doesn't have any effect on my AI 16:24:55 <Samu> or maybe the orders i'm using don't combine well with the feature 16:26:06 <Samu> btw the new inflation combined with the huge max loan increase seems to break my AI 16:34:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLDhF 16:35:31 *** gooball has joined #openttd 16:36:48 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 16:38:36 *** Gustavo6046 is now known as Guest9239 16:38:39 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 16:39:49 *** Guest9239 has quit IRC 16:40:00 <gooball> Hi, I'm working on making the conversion between different road types (including their respective bridges, depots, etc.) in NewGRFs like RattRoads work like expected. Currently, ownership of a road tile does not change on conversion, but I was wondering whether it would make sense to change it to the player's company (just like what would happen if they player instead destroyed and 16:40:03 <gooball> rebuilt the road tile). 16:41:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLDj3 16:41:42 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 16:43:25 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 16:44:52 <frosch123> the ownership is mostly about who is allowed to remove a road 16:45:21 <frosch123> if anyone is allowed to upgrade, you essentially add a cheap way to remove any road 16:45:43 <frosch123> what do you use ownership for? other than "who is allowed to remove it"? 16:46:49 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 16:47:10 <gooball> you shouldn't be allowed to upgrade (or downgrade) other companies' or hostile cities' roads, the question is just whether the player should assume ownership of a road after conversion 16:47:47 <Eddi|zuHause> like take it over from a town? no 16:48:20 <gooball> alright so town roads should stay town roads after conversion? 16:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> also, the town should refuse if the new roadtype isn't compatible with ROAD 16:49:45 <gooball> right 16:53:25 <gooball> what about unowned roads? 16:54:02 <gooball> i feel like they should be convertable by anyone and claimed on conversion 16:56:12 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:58:44 <supermop_Home> yo andythenorth https://images.app.goo.gl/tUt6qiMrZoFUqZLM7 16:59:00 <gooball> I'm going afk now 17:08:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLyeg 17:10:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLyei 17:10:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8437: Airports: Improper aircraft movement when the northernmost airport tile is not part of the layout https://git.io/JLMPY 17:12:50 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 17:20:31 <andythenorth> supermop_Home :) 17:20:47 * andythenorth did a thing about livery crap https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/discussions/8446 17:20:53 <andythenorth> didn't include pictures 17:20:57 <andythenorth> pls add pictures :P 17:21:48 <andythenorth> wall of text is very wall :( 17:21:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bernardoct opened issue #8447: Color tracks and lanes by used capacity https://git.io/JLyvC 17:24:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bernardoct opened issue #8448: New feature: option to see charts of all items in the balance sheet dating from 10 years prior. https://git.io/JLyv2 17:27:13 <LordAro> oh no 17:37:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7886: Group management enhancements https://git.io/JLyfk 17:42:44 *** Afdal has quit IRC 17:43:41 <andythenorth> I remain puzzled by groups, dunno what I miss 17:43:49 <andythenorth> groups already exist by shared orders 17:43:59 <andythenorth> there's too ways to achieve it 17:44:03 <andythenorth> too / 2 /s 17:47:06 <supermop_Home> yeah but you might want a group that doesn't share orders (coal sector- serving various mines, Local trains of X City), or you might want to share orders but not group 17:47:22 <andythenorth> I don't know what 'automatically group' is doing 17:47:27 <andythenorth> looks like it scratches one itch 17:47:32 <andythenorth> https://preview.openttd.org/pr7886/ 17:47:54 <andythenorth> I don't think it's wrong, I just don't understand it 17:48:37 <andythenorth> it seems ok to group by cargo, but then it makes subgroups 17:48:46 <andythenorth> and puts in a weird two letter code 17:48:55 <andythenorth> and assumes 'local' afaict 17:52:28 <supermop_Home> i feel like i should put together a deck with bood boards for arctic hotel 17:53:54 *** Afdal has joined #openttd 17:54:21 <Samu> I was missing the NewGRF for this savegame https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/files/5743791/Airport.Testing.Ltd.2010-02-28.sav.zip 17:54:23 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLyfD 17:54:30 <Samu> downloaded and it crashed 17:54:43 <Samu> another fios issue? 17:55:26 <supermop_Home> Adirondack / Mountain West - Craftsman / Faux Cabin / 'Swiss' Chalet / Swiss Mid-century / Faux Nordic / 80s Olympic post modern / 17:57:33 <supermop_Home> Borscht Belt Resort 17:58:21 <LordAro> Samu: can confirm, seems so 18:02:35 <LordAro> can't say i understand the error though 18:06:42 <LordAro> ah yes i do 18:09:32 *** christoph[m] has left #openttd 18:12:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #8449: Fix 65f65ad2: Don't try to construct a std::string from nullptr https://git.io/JLyJy 18:12:20 <LordAro> that's 2 issues i missed :) 18:15:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLyJx 18:18:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JLyUL 18:18:27 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 18:19:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8449: Fix 65f65ad2: Don't try to construct a std::string from nullptr https://git.io/JLyUt 18:21:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #8449: Fix 65f65ad2: Don't try to construct a std::string from nullptr https://git.io/JLyUt 18:21:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8449: Fix 65f65ad2: Don't try to construct a std::string from nullptr https://git.io/JLyJy 18:23:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep opened pull request #8450: Doc: Remove some SmallVector references from documentation. https://git.io/JLyUs 18:24:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8449: Fix 65f65ad2: Don't try to construct a std::string from nullptr https://git.io/JLyUW 18:27:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8450: Doc: Remove some SmallVector references from documentation. https://git.io/JLyUg 18:29:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep opened pull request #8451: Codechange: Simplify GetRailDepotTrack. https://git.io/JLyUV 18:30:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #8450: Doc: Remove some SmallVector references from documentation. https://git.io/JLyU6 18:30:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8449: Fix 65f65ad2: Don't try to construct a std::string from nullptr https://git.io/JLyJy 18:32:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #8450: Doc: Remove some SmallVector references from documentation. https://git.io/JLyUs 18:33:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8450: Doc: Remove some SmallVector references from documentation. https://git.io/JLyUd 18:35:39 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 18:38:04 <supermop_Home> is it hardcoded what houses in base set can use recoloring? 18:38:14 <supermop_Home> like the stripes on capsule tower etc? 18:40:23 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8450: Doc: Remove some SmallVector references from documentation. https://git.io/JLyUs 18:46:46 <andythenorth> I would guess so yes 18:46:52 <TrueBrain> I have a xmas dinner dinner, and so much mail! Omg :P 18:47:09 <andythenorth> supermop_Home not sure if that's baseset code, or in openttd 18:47:13 <supermop_Home> boring 18:47:27 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I am too full of food to read anything :P 18:47:36 <andythenorth> 4 big dinners in 4 days 18:47:47 <TrueBrain> same here 18:47:52 <supermop_Home> opengfx temperate hotel looks a little …. institutional 18:47:52 <TrueBrain> I am really .. no more room :D 18:47:53 <supermop_Home> https://imgur.com/a/Wze5UAs 18:47:53 <glx> supermop_Home: I think they use the company colour blue 18:48:00 <TrueBrain> so tonight, we do something completely different .. Factorio! 18:48:46 <supermop_Home> glx if any house can use colors that would be nice 18:49:14 <supermop_Home> although in this particular case i'm hoping to use the bridge / brick recoloring 18:49:44 <supermop_Home> andythenorth are firs hotels out? 18:51:13 <andythenorth> if you mean 'does FIRS need hotel sprites' the answer is yes :) 18:54:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep opened pull request #8452: Doc: Add labels to landscape grid description. https://git.io/JLyT1 19:04:22 *** Progman has quit IRC 19:05:20 <gooball> coming back to the topic of converting between road types, i think it makes more sense to keep ownership as it is. regarding town roads, would it make sense to use town ratings as a basis for (dis)allowing town road conversion? there are already functions for getting a town's acceptance of road and bridge *removal*, so maybe these could be used for conversion as well. 19:07:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8452: Doc: Add labels to landscape grid description. https://git.io/JLykC 19:07:29 <supermop_Home> andythenorth does it have to just be 2x arctic hotel in a square 19:07:37 <andythenorth> for ofgx yes 19:07:48 <andythenorth> FIRS has more possibilities 19:07:56 <andythenorth> but the FIRS hotel in my games is fine 19:08:05 <TrueBrain> frosch123: https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/fe3c80e7dc9313b7ac7941540e5dee22 <- in addition to your wiki (as I like what you wrote, but I think we can do one better :P). It might be pushing it btw :) 19:08:25 <andythenorth> supermop_Home or I could just quit the discord channel, which would also solve the problem 19:08:29 <andythenorth> lateral solution? 19:08:34 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is an addition; so it can always be done later :) 19:09:25 <andythenorth> frosch123 I looked for you 'regions' GS spec earlier 19:09:30 <andythenorth> it's on wayback machine 19:09:33 <andythenorth> your * 19:11:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8452: Doc: Add labels to landscape grid description. https://git.io/JLyk6 19:11:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: https://wiki.openttd.org/Folder/Page/en/Development/Design%20Drafts/ <- everything is there, unless it is completely dead. completely dead stuff is in the archive 19:14:15 <andythenorth> hurrah 19:14:21 <andythenorth> google needs to index it :D 19:17:09 <andythenorth> this is the one I found earlier, this is dead then? https://web.archive.org/web/20141003184501/https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/GS_Area_Control 19:18:10 <supermop_Home> i think the firs hotel looks espescially weird to me because it is a square 19:22:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: i removed all the name attribution and dumped all drafts from me, zuu, albert, and others into one folder 19:22:23 <frosch123> it was meant as a wiki, not as a personal gist 19:23:50 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8437: Airports: Improper aircraft movement when the northernmost airport tile is not part of the layout https://git.io/JLMPY 19:24:06 <LordAro> if anyone else knows anything about airport movement code, some input would be appreciated :) 19:24:20 <LordAro> but i suspect the answer is "no one understands it" 19:24:33 <andythenorth> frosch123 thx 19:24:35 <LordAro> "maybe richk67 15 years ago" 19:24:47 <supermop_Home> airports? 19:24:55 <LordAro> supermop_Home: see the issue above 19:25:19 <supermop_Home> richk67 = airport in my mind 19:25:30 <supermop_Home> bbl 19:25:30 <LordAro> well, yes 19:33:28 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 19:38:59 <Samu> found another fios bug 19:39:10 <Samu> start new game, then in console type 'restart' 19:39:13 <Samu> bom 19:41:17 <Samu> maybe not fios bug? 19:42:35 <Samu> strange, i can't trigger the bug now 19:44:32 <TrueBrain> https://pasteboard.co/JGUhjq8.png what a mess :( 19:45:45 <andythenorth> what even is? :D 19:46:42 <TrueBrain> life? universe? the rest? 19:48:56 <frosch123> someone ran out of rails 19:49:04 <TrueBrain> but why do they build it like this?! 19:49:06 <TrueBrain> I mean ... 19:49:33 <TrueBrain> feels like total RNG :P 19:49:38 <TrueBrain> TileXY % 10 ? :P 19:49:42 <frosch123> no idea, i think i built double tracks once in factorio 19:49:49 <frosch123> i never have so many trains 19:49:59 <TrueBrain> you are playing it wrong, I dare say :D 19:50:19 <frosch123> i am too slow :) 19:50:51 <frosch123> i stop playing when i cannot keep up with replacing excausted mining outposts 19:50:54 <frosch123> which is too early when you are a slow builder 19:51:20 <TrueBrain> I play with friends .. well, with a friend :P It helps :D 19:51:22 <andythenorth> oof I am bad at tanks today 19:51:30 <andythenorth> worse than normal 19:54:30 <andythenorth> do some boat coding I guess 19:59:15 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 19:59:20 * andythenorth disappointed that this hasn't broken the internet https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/discussions/8446 20:02:35 <Samu> there is a bug with the new max loan 20:02:58 <Samu> it's trying to fit a Money into a uint32 20:03:04 <Samu> it does not fit 20:04:25 <Samu> with the old 500k loan max, even after 170 years of inflation, still fit uint32 20:05:58 <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/edbb5f4f737e2670faa1ac392fe179b7278921ec/src/script/api/script_company.cpp#L207-L209 20:09:53 <frosch123> i am not sure you will find the right audience there 20:10:56 <frosch123> though no idea where else you could find it :) 20:11:29 <Samu> max loan after inflation and 4% interest https://i.imgur.com/ajqUyru.png 20:14:30 <Samu> the AI is setting loan amount to 1 641 693 900 000 20:15:27 <Samu> @calc 1641693900000-82050000 20:15:27 <DorpsGek> Samu: 1641611850000 20:15:40 <Samu> this number is passed to DoCommand 20:15:46 <Samu> where p1 is uint32 20:16:49 <Samu> p1 934342928 unsigned int 20:17:00 <Samu> it has another value now :( 20:18:31 <Samu> a quick fix is to revert the max loan increase back to 500k max 20:22:07 <Samu> not sure how feasible it is to change p1 into uint64 20:41:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #8453: AIs can fail at requesting 170 years inflation loan with a 4% interest rate https://git.io/JLyqn 20:45:35 *** Progman has joined #openttd 20:46:05 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] UnsuspiciousGooball opened pull request #8454: Fix #8297: Infrastructure counters for road tunnels, bridges, depots … https://git.io/JLyq0 20:51:11 *** gooball has quit IRC 20:54:14 <TrueBrain> frosch123: your PR template really helps :) 20:58:42 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i barfed into your gist, sorry :) 21:01:00 <frosch123> i won't be here during the week, so no more annoying comments from me in the next days :) 21:01:57 <TrueBrain> boooooo :P 21:02:01 <TrueBrain> tnx, nice read :) 21:02:53 <andythenorth> +1 21:02:59 <TrueBrain> not sure TownLocation and TownConstruction needs to be 2 entities 21:03:04 <TrueBrain> I think they are somewhat coupled 21:03:06 <andythenorth> Towns are Towns are Towns yes/no? 21:03:23 <TrueBrain> I can imagine that a GS wants to have specific places certain town-types appear 21:03:24 * andythenorth immediately started thinking about GS Landscape, and immediately deleted the idea 21:03:34 <andythenorth> Town Terraforming :P 21:03:43 <TrueBrain> but otherwise, Option 3 sounds like a sane thing to me, honestly 21:05:08 <frosch123> i am a bit worried, that no matter how the capabilities are separated, the system breaks down with the next gs idea :p 21:05:14 <TrueBrain> currently a location is found during the attempt to create a town .. OpenTTD does RandomTile, and it assigned a GS instance to it, tries to build it 21:05:33 <TrueBrain> we could skip capabilities and only do instances 21:05:40 * andythenorth wonders what else we want GS to do :P 21:05:50 <TrueBrain> but the capabilities make it more clear what a GS does 21:06:00 <frosch123> TrueBrain: haha, but ottd already does not do "random tile" :) 21:06:13 <frosch123> ottd does random tile, and if that ends up in the sea, it goes to nearest coast 21:06:20 <frosch123> increasing the number of towns at the coast 21:06:21 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/town_cmd.cpp#L2063 21:06:41 <TrueBrain> I happened to have read that line of code today :) 21:06:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8453: AIs can fail at requesting 170 years inflation loan with a 4% interest rate https://git.io/JLyqn 21:06:56 <TrueBrain> there is a bug there btw ... 21:07:07 <TrueBrain> alignment is checked BEFORE water movement 21:07:35 <TrueBrain> but okay, if we rotate those two blocks in our head for now 21:07:36 <frosch123> sounds like chicken-egg :) 21:08:02 <frosch123> if you just rotate them, you end up back in the water :) 21:08:13 <andythenorth> ok so GS for growth and roads, newgrf for houses 21:08:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: fair .. with 1 or 2 tiles, yes 21:08:23 <andythenorth> one GS per town, whereas there can be N house grfs? 21:09:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: gs is good at scanning the map. newgrf is good when a location is already known 21:09:07 <TrueBrain> frosch123: anyway, I guess we just have to work this out a bit more, see where the edges are :) 21:09:29 <andythenorth> +1 21:09:54 <andythenorth> so 'how long is a town bridge' also just becomes a GS problem yes/no? 21:11:14 <frosch123> in theory, but it's unlikele people would write a gs just for that, when they can implement road layouts, serpentines, and whatever 21:11:40 <andythenorth> yes, I see it as a subset, not a thing they'd dedicate a GS for :) 21:11:53 <andythenorth> oof I don't know why, but CZ set just winds me up https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1239711#p1239711 21:12:03 <frosch123> townconstruction gs would probably also terraform a lot 21:12:03 <andythenorth> all I wanted was a list of grfids 21:12:06 <andythenorth> maybe I just ask :D 21:12:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: bananas? 21:13:07 <frosch123> wasn't there a fixed cargo slot for regearing? 21:13:54 <andythenorth> 31 or something 21:13:58 <andythenorth> I ignored it and broke it 21:14:07 <andythenorth> Pikka said it was a stupid feature 21:14:18 <frosch123> and you have 64 cargos, I guess :p 21:14:22 <andythenorth> yup 21:14:31 <andythenorth> why they don't all just use lots of IDs for their engines, I don't know 21:14:39 <andythenorth> all this cargo subtype crap is really crap 21:14:52 <andythenorth> like, it's actively worse than having the vehicles in the buy menu 21:15:16 <frosch123> i like how the cargo limit was doubled, and you maxed it out within one year :p 21:15:56 <andythenorth> I actually didn't yet :) https://grf.farm/firs/4.0.0-beta-3/html/economies.html#steeltown 21:16:14 <andythenorth> it's very hard to design gameplay other than 'blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah' with a lot of cargos 21:16:43 <frosch123> why can't you skip slot 31 then? 21:17:04 <andythenorth> I don't know what slot they're in and I don't really care 21:17:08 <andythenorth> they're doing the wrong thing :) 21:17:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8453: AIs can fail at requesting 170 years inflation loan with a 4% interest rate https://git.io/JLyqn 21:17:22 <frosch123> or do we need to make ottd better 21:17:27 <andythenorth> I have enough manual slot management just to deal with house cargos 21:17:38 <andythenorth> and default vehicles 21:17:57 <frosch123> noone bother to add dynamic cargo slot allocation to newgrf sets, because every industry set maxed out all 32 slots anyway 21:18:07 <frosch123> but with 64 it may be useful for a year 21:19:13 <andythenorth> so if anyone can explain what I am doing here...pls https://grf.farm/images/liveries-subtypes.m4v 21:19:16 <andythenorth> I have NFI :) 21:19:35 <andythenorth> I picked on RUKTS, but it's a pretty common approach, nothing against RUKTS 21:19:55 <frosch123> it lacks subtitles, no idea what i shall look at 21:20:44 <andythenorth> it's me clicking random things, wondering what they do 21:21:15 <andythenorth> if I upload it to YT, will google subtitle it? :P 21:21:36 <frosch123> ah, that's little different to me watching you clicking random things, also wondering what they do and whether you intend to do something :) 21:22:39 <andythenorth> I do stupid things like this (I didn't ship it, I was told it was a bad UI) https://grf.farm/images/probably_fine.m4v 21:23:28 <andythenorth> funny what you can do with var 61 21:25:48 <andythenorth> sorry I derailed useful GS chat :P 21:26:13 <andythenorth> I have half-ideas about industry 21:26:52 <andythenorth> I think almost everything I am dreaming of can be done in newgrf, with town register stuff 21:27:12 <andythenorth> or maybe could be if grfs had global register and periodic cb 21:27:53 <andythenorth> communicating with towns about cargo effects can be done in town register 99% certain 21:28:57 <andythenorth> setting industry 'regions' like 'build coal mines here' could be done with towns, if I could stuff the same value into a register in a few adjacent towns 21:29:19 <andythenorth> closure could be done sanely if there were grf-global registers and a periodic cb 21:29:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] Andrew350 opened pull request #46: Change: Use a white cursor for better visibility https://git.io/JLyY4 21:30:07 <andythenorth> the only 'problem' I can't figure out a possible solution for is forcing industry construction at certain times or locations 21:32:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth commented on pull request #46: Change: Use a white cursor for better visibility https://git.io/JLyYo 21:33:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] frosch123 commented on pull request #46: Change: Use a white cursor for better visibility https://git.io/JLyYP 21:33:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] frosch123 closed pull request #46: Change: Use a white cursor for better visibility https://git.io/JLyY4 21:33:25 <frosch123> oh, it was a PR, i thought it was an issue 21:33:27 <andythenorth> Chesterton's fence 21:33:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] frosch123 commented on pull request #46: Change: Use a white cursor for better visibility https://git.io/JLyY1 21:33:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] frosch123 reopened pull request #46: Change: Use a white cursor for better visibility https://git.io/JLyY4 21:34:00 <supermop_Home> ive just wasted like 30 min trying to figure out in my head if a train turns short at station X at time T, will it block another train at station Y at time T+n 21:34:22 <supermop_Home> sometimes playing this game doesn't really feel like a game 21:34:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #8437: Airports: Improper aircraft movement when the northernmost airport tile is not part of the layout https://git.io/JLMPY 21:36:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth commented on pull request #46: Change: Use a white cursor for better visibility https://git.io/JLyYF 21:37:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: stop you ogfx whining, if you don't use it 21:37:08 <frosch123> i prefer it *a lot* over the original set 21:37:14 <andythenorth> yeah I added a comment to that effect 21:37:38 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:39:13 <andythenorth> I kinda feel guilty that I haven't fixed the worst parts of ogfx, but nobody asked me to so that's....dumb 21:46:39 <glx> you mean the toolbar andythenorth ? 21:46:58 <andythenorth> no I mean the arctic hotel sprite and the minimap font 21:47:05 <andythenorth> the rest is matter of taste 21:47:15 <andythenorth> but those 2 are broken 21:47:32 <glx> I'm totally lost in the toolbar with ogfx 21:47:58 <andythenorth> I think that's just a familiarity issue 21:51:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8454: Fix #8297: Infrastructure counters for road tunnels, bridges, depots … https://git.io/JLy3f 22:08:43 * andythenorth looking if the ogfx minimap font 'e' glyph can be fixed 22:09:54 <andythenorth> I think there physically aren't enough pixels 22:10:39 *** Samu has quit IRC 22:12:01 <andythenorth> oh well, I tried 22:13:12 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 22:18:42 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 22:35:54 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:45:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #8455: Windowbuttons https://git.io/JLyG8 22:45:51 <TrueBrain> :o 22:46:08 <frosch123> last PR of the year, prime candidate for "preview" label 22:46:17 <frosch123> aw, you beat me :p 22:46:20 <TrueBrain> media/openttd.desktop? :D 22:46:45 <TrueBrain> I am surprised it is this small :) 22:46:51 <frosch123> hmm, what did i commit there... 22:47:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8456: Fix #8453: [Script] Don't truncate loan variation to 32bit https://git.io/JLyGz 22:47:19 <frosch123> no idea where that file comes from 22:48:08 <TrueBrain> glx: isn't p2 also 32bit? 22:48:36 <TrueBrain> owh, your description is wrong :P 22:48:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 updated pull request #8455: Unified GUI buttons for renaming and scrolling to entities https://git.io/JLyG8 22:48:59 <TrueBrain> I assume you mean bit 0-29 for lower half of amount? :) 22:49:19 <TrueBrain> hmm, description seems weird in more ways :) 22:49:23 <glx> let me rewrite 22:49:35 <TrueBrain> :D 22:49:36 <TrueBrain> sorry :P 22:49:55 <TrueBrain> ah, yes, bit 0..2 is for the option, gotcha :) 22:50:45 <glx> rewritten 22:50:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] Andrew350 commented on pull request #46: Change: Use a white cursor for better visibility https://git.io/JLyG6 22:53:29 <TrueBrain> frosch123: can he just make it into his own GRF, the cursor? Can you overwrite that with another GRF? 22:53:36 <TrueBrain> or only basesets? 22:53:40 <glx> hmm I think I failed to write the function comments 22:53:49 <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, he can 22:53:51 <TrueBrain> glx: we all do :D 22:54:06 <frosch123> you can make static newgrf, that do not affect network games 22:54:16 <frosch123> requrie editing openttd.cfg manually though 22:54:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain commented on pull request #46: Change: Use a white cursor for better visibility https://git.io/JLyG9 22:54:52 <frosch123> TrueBrain: we could also add baseset parameters :p 22:54:58 <TrueBrain> no 22:55:23 <TrueBrain> (sometimes 2 letters is all that is takes :P :D) 22:55:24 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:56:04 *** nielsm has quit IRC 22:56:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8456: Fix #8453: [Script] Don't truncate loan variation to 32bit https://git.io/JLyGz 22:56:36 <glx> better now 22:56:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] Andrew350 commented on pull request #46: Change: Use a white cursor for better visibility https://git.io/JLyGb 22:58:30 <TrueBrain> glx: isn't it more common to do bit 0..2 first, then bit 3..N ? 22:58:33 <TrueBrain> (sorry to nitpick :D) 22:58:46 <TrueBrain> not really important otherwise btw, it is clear like this :) 22:59:16 <glx> hmm yes, but in this case it's to show the direct relation with p1 22:59:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8456: Fix #8453: [Script] Don't truncate loan variation to 32bit https://git.io/JLyGx 22:59:31 <TrueBrain> glx: fair 23:00:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8456: Fix #8453: [Script] Don't truncate loan variation to 32bit https://git.io/JLyGz 23:01:22 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 23:01:26 <TrueBrain> it -looks- okay to me, but I am not in a state to really review it :P 23:01:42 <glx> no hurry anyway 23:02:30 <glx> only AIs are concerned 23:02:48 <glx> well and GS acting as AIs :) 23:37:33 <frosch123> night, till next year :) 23:37:36 *** frosch123 has quit IRC