Log for #openttd on 30th March 2021:
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07:32:31  <peter1138> LordAro, help
07:33:38  <LordAro> hellos
07:36:35  <TrueBrain> does he want you to dial 112?
07:38:26  <LordAro> i hope not, i don't have a lot more information than "some guy in <town>"
07:40:28  <LordAro> the more i look at this image, the stranger it gets
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07:42:06  <TrueBrain> I love how the tugs are under water
07:42:19  <TrueBrain> that note is just briliant
07:42:48  <LordAro> i think they're trying to go for some sort of perspective
07:42:52  <LordAro> but it's just... all wrong
07:43:22  <TrueBrain> yup
07:43:29  <TrueBrain> you can't use more than one in a single image :P
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08:02:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ghisvail commented on issue #8896: Flatpak: Please include the free OPL3 MIDI SoundFont in "/app/share/sounds/sf2"
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11:00:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DonaldDuck313 opened issue #8912: Ship can't decide whether or not it wants to go for maintenance
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11:34:36  <Timberwolf> That's how to solve the "what scale is OpenTTD?" question that keeps coming up. Have a "Note: some objects not to scale" message constantly displayed on the bottom left of the screen.
11:40:05  <Wolf01> Object in mirrors might appear closer than they are
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11:55:14  <Timberwolf> Well, now I'll have that song in my head all afternoon.
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12:29:40  <supermop_Home_> yo
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13:46:00  <_dp_> warning: objects in the game may appear more realistic than they are :p
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15:15:08  <andythenorth> learnt how to force clustering in graphviz
15:15:50  <LordAro> nice
15:16:04  <andythenorth> I _think_ that's improved?
15:17:10  <andythenorth> compared to
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15:40:14  <LordAro> definitely better
15:41:16  <andythenorth> I'm going to tune a few more colours, then I think it's good enough
15:44:58  <andythenorth> there are 14 linear steps in the graph that follows the salt chain
15:46:27  <andythenorth> this limits the size of the font because scaling
15:47:09  <andythenorth> I can distort the linearity, but it's starts to fight graphviz, especially dot which prefers clean DAGs without back links
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17:03:05  <andythenorth> hm can I be bothered to tune this further, or shall I tidy up all my JFDI code?
17:03:20  <andythenorth> FIRS 4.0.0 release is Thursday :P
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17:36:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8910: Change: Title game for 1.11.0 release
17:36:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8910: Change: Title game for 1.11.0 release
17:42:16  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8901: Fix #8565: Stopped road vehicle displays a speed different than 0
17:42:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8565: Stopped road vehicle displays a speed different than 0.
17:44:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8906: Change: [CMake] Copy AI/GS compatibility files to build dir
17:47:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8913: Backport master into 1.11
17:49:06  <TrueBrain> easiest backport evah
17:50:23  <TrueBrain> LordAro: please squash more, rebase less .. now I need to look up the PR numbers for all those you rebased :P
17:50:37  <LordAro> lol
17:51:19  <LordAro> different to usual way of backporting translations
17:51:21  <LordAro> but eh.
17:51:36  <TrueBrain> yeah .. this was way easier :)
17:53:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:53:25  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:53:41  <LordAro> lol
17:53:57  <TrueBrain> I was aware of that :) But we have to do it the 1st again anyway :)
17:54:05  <LordAro> true
17:55:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8914: Doc: Prepare for 1.11.0 release
17:56:10  <TrueBrain> ^^ gives you a bit of time to do your language thingy LordAro :)
17:56:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #8480: Multitile depots
17:57:21  <TrueBrain> guess tomorrow I will write news post, Steam news, social texts, fix the images on Steam, and prepare livestream ..
17:58:08  <LordAro> and do all the extra releases
17:58:14  <TrueBrain> I am not going to do that
17:58:17  <LordAro> :p
17:58:21  <TrueBrain> I think I already said that, not? Hmm .. most likely :)
17:58:29  <TrueBrain> just to set expectations here :)
17:58:36  <LordAro> more or less
17:59:19  <TrueBrain> 88 files changed in master vs 1.11 .. damn
18:01:13  <LordAro> i should be able to do most of them
18:01:29  <LordAro> does that 88 include translations?
18:01:35  <TrueBrain> ofc :)
18:01:37  <LordAro> i imagine most of the rest is your terrain stuff :p
18:01:44  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I think orudge already did one this week :)
18:01:56  <TrueBrain> <- it is not a small list of other stuff too
18:02:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8901: Fix #8565: Stopped road vehicle displays a speed different than 0
18:03:57  <TrueBrain> okay, 1.11 smoketest works, so at least it starts etc :P
18:04:42  <TrueBrain> LordAro: mainly if you can do OpenGFX today/tomorrow, that would be great
18:05:01  <TrueBrain> the nag screen about missing 11 sprites is annoying :D
18:06:06  <frosch123> TrueBrain: that message is not shown for releases
18:06:17  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it isn't? Lol :)
18:06:36  <frosch123> bool missing_sprites = _missing_extra_graphics > 0 && !IsReleasedVersion();
18:06:39  <TrueBrain> someone was annoyed enough by that that he wrote code for it? :P
18:06:41  <frosch123> bool missing_lang = _current_language->missing >= _settings_client.gui.missing_strings_threshold && !IsReleasedVersion();
18:07:02  <frosch123> i think the missing_lang message was first
18:07:07  <frosch123> so it may just have been copy&paste
18:07:23  <frosch123> anyway, quite sure there were multple years without ogfx release
18:07:37  <TrueBrain> nevertheless, sounds like the right thing to do if LordAro can make the time :D
18:07:42  <TrueBrain> or you, ofc :)
18:07:46  <frosch123> or rather, there were ogfx releases, but noone uploaded them to binaries
18:08:23  <frosch123> i have time after the livestream :p
18:08:44  <TrueBrain> rather before, but we will see how it all works out :)
18:10:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #8480: Multitile depots
18:10:52  <supermop_Home_> all this vaccine site refreshing has enabled me to convince captchas that I am actually a bot
18:21:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 commented on pull request #173: Fix: Access to persistent storage of towns
18:22:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 commented on pull request #173: Fix: Access to persistent storage of towns
18:25:17  <andythenorth> oh dear snail_UES_ did a funny :P
18:25:19  <andythenorth> oof
18:25:40  <snail_UES_> :p
18:25:52  <snail_UES_> I’ve never heard of features being removed because of a bug in the code...
18:26:02  <snail_UES_> usually, bugs gets squashed for features to be included :)
18:26:44  <snail_UES_> supermop_Home_: don’t mention that. I’ve been trying for hours
18:27:00  <andythenorth> I'm not prepared to retest a bad feature for another half a day
18:27:15  <andythenorth> so deletion seems most likely
18:27:25  <snail_UES_> btw, why did you drop running costs when a restaurant car is included?
18:27:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #202: Add: OpenTTD 1.11.0 release post
18:27:53  <andythenorth> it was the only gameplay mechanic I could find for them
18:28:03  <andythenorth> but everything to do with the stupid cargo aging feature is absolutely broken
18:28:11  <snail_UES_> agree
18:28:15  <andythenorth> that feature is on my top 3 list of stupids
18:28:29  <snail_UES_> the function works like a hyperbula. Nice idea, bad implementation
18:28:29  <andythenorth> it's absolutely completely useless
18:28:55  <snail_UES_> I also use it to differentiate classes for passengers, but it has hardly any tangible effect
18:29:06  <andythenorth> until a player turns up and proves that it does
18:29:23  <andythenorth> using some combination of route length etc that you never envisaged
18:29:30  <andythenorth> and then they don't like it
18:29:41  <frosch123> TrueBrain: cheater! with that "100% rainforest" you are just baiting for your bingo card
18:29:54  <TrueBrain> well, that is the one thing that is 100% possible :P
18:29:56  <TrueBrain> 100% snow .. no
18:29:59  <TrueBrain> 100% desert .. no
18:29:59  <TrueBrain> :D
18:30:10  <andythenorth> 100% rainforest?
18:30:14  <andythenorth> what about rocks?
18:30:16  <andythenorth> transmitters
18:30:22  <frosch123> there isn't even a setting for percentage of rainforest
18:30:23  <andythenorth> I find your claim to be much hype
18:30:34  <andythenorth> I shall disprove you
18:31:12  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ I wanted to do negative running costs on restaurant cars, to represent earnings from sale of beer and pies
18:31:13  <frosch123> isn't that tree-brush scenario-editor only?
18:31:19  <andythenorth> but we can't have negative run costs
18:31:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #202: Add: OpenTTD 1.11.0 release post
18:31:22  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is
18:31:35  <andythenorth> because some grf somewhere might have set a run cost value > 128
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18:32:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #202: Add: OpenTTD 1.11.0 release post
18:32:03  <TrueBrain> frosch123: there you go
18:32:21  <frosch123> i just want to ensure the bingo cards are fair :)
18:32:23  <andythenorth> and we also can't have a per-vehicle cargo payment multiplier, JGR explained why, but I don't have the reason
18:32:40  <andythenorth> probably transfer credits though
18:32:45  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: true, but I doubt they’d offset the entire consist’s running cost significantly… those include fuel, maintenance...
18:33:25  <andythenorth> dunno, pies are quite good profit
18:33:55  <andythenorth> anyway this is why I concluded remove restaurant cars
18:34:03  <andythenorth> stuff like this just doesn't work in openttd
18:34:19  <andythenorth> the game is great at doing e.g. 64 meaningless railtypes
18:34:39  <andythenorth> not so much for kind of fun stuff
18:34:43  <snail_UES_> agreed, 64 is “too much”, but 16 was too little
18:35:01  <andythenorth> I'm not against people having 64 meaningless railtypes
18:35:03  <andythenorth> 'freedom'
18:35:18  <andythenorth> it's like having 64 meaningless cargos
18:35:31  <andythenorth> better than only having 32
18:35:40  <snail_UES_> unless people start asking for a separation between “wider” narrow gauge tracks, and metric tracks :P
18:35:59  <andythenorth> but mostly newgrf is suited to 'moar'
18:36:09  <andythenorth> 'interesting' does not really work
18:36:23  <andythenorth> and the historical attempts at that are weird
18:36:41  <snail_UES_> historical attempts are fun
18:36:45  <TrueBrain> okay .. so now only "annoying images for Steam" left .. that really really is something for tomorrow :P
18:36:53  <andythenorth> well cargo aging is a failed experiment
18:36:59  <frosch123> TrueBrain: how many this time?
18:37:02  <andythenorth> and the user bits on trains are weird
18:37:08  <TrueBrain> frosch123: just 2
18:37:11  <andythenorth> and the custom cargo payment CB is weird
18:37:13  <snail_UES_> don’t touch the user bits :p
18:37:19  <TrueBrain> so it is okay :)
18:37:28  <andythenorth> and the railcar flag is odd
18:37:40  <snail_UES_> user bits are the only thing that allows for features that would be otherwise impossible
18:37:42  <TrueBrain> anyway, if any of you can review the backport PR tonight, that would be lovely
18:37:56  <andythenorth> I never found a use for user bits ever
18:38:09  <andythenorth> afaict, they're for detecting things like restaurant cars in the consist
18:38:12  <snail_UES_> because you engineered your trainset in a very different way from mine
18:38:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: you would have to disable your set in presence of any other set :p
18:38:32  <andythenorth> frosch123 that has a certain appeal
18:38:40  <andythenorth> the one-giant-grf approach
18:38:51  <snail_UES_> I use them to assign a livery to the entire consist. Since “views” for engines were never implemented, they’re the only way to do that
18:38:53  <andythenorth> can I disable if daylength isn't 1?
18:39:17  <andythenorth> oh that's the other top 3 stupid feature in my list of 6 top 3 stupid features
18:39:22  <andythenorth> or maybe it's 7 top 3 stupid features now
18:39:29  <andythenorth> livery callback
18:39:29  <frosch123> andythenorth: there was a time, when angry newgrf authors disabled their set in ottd, because it did not behave like ttdp. didn't you recently consider the same for jgrpp? :p
18:39:45  <andythenorth> frosch123 I did, but I like JGR too much as a contributor
18:39:54  <snail_UES_> like, the livery override?
18:39:59  <andythenorth> nah the liveries cb
18:40:01  <snail_UES_> I don’t use it. I go all the way with cb36
18:40:23  <andythenorth> how do you let players select the livery?
18:40:40  <andythenorth> CB 19, liveries
18:40:48  <snail_UES_> I don’t do that
18:41:00  <andythenorth> it doesn't actually work, but I should probably stop posting videos of that :)
18:41:02  <snail_UES_> in my set, players select the livery by playing with the leading engine’s userbits
18:41:18  <snail_UES_> once those are set, all the vehicles attached to it follow the same livery
18:41:20  <andythenorth> how do they configure the user bits?
18:41:30  <snail_UES_> by refitting the first engine
18:41:38  <andythenorth> so livery CB?
18:41:42  <snail_UES_> you buy it and it appears with a default livery
18:43:07  <frosch123> you use userbits to provide information from the engine to the wagons?
18:43:17  <frosch123> that's the only case where you don't need userbits :p
18:43:49  <snail_UES_> no, with the userbits. I use the “refitted” function in m4nfo (which connects to the refit callback)
18:44:03  <andythenorth> oh the livery CB
18:44:14  <andythenorth> do you want to see my video of how that just doesn't work?
18:44:19  <snail_UES_> each refitting stage corresponds to a particular userbit settings
18:44:20  <andythenorth> I have 2, but one is better than the other
18:44:34  <snail_UES_> so you’re telling me my set doesn’t work? :D
18:44:40  <snail_UES_> even if it works exactly as intended?
18:44:41  <andythenorth> well the video is RUKTs
18:44:47  <frosch123> snail_UES_: yes, and wagons can read the refit status of the engine directly, no need for userbits there
18:44:55  <andythenorth> but I'm not picking on RUKTS, the CB is broken in OpenTTD
18:44:59  <snail_UES_> frosch123: this is where you’re not correct
18:45:15  <snail_UES_> it’s not that easy. If it were that easy, I wouldn’t need userbits at all
18:45:19  <andythenorth> eh?
18:45:21  <andythenorth> just var 61
18:45:28  <andythenorth> or parent
18:45:33  <frosch123> haha, no, i am very correct :)
18:45:46  <snail_UES_> frosch123: I’m sorry, but you’re not :)
18:45:46  <andythenorth> if it's all first engine parent should do
18:45:54  <andythenorth> is it the livestream already?
18:46:01  <andythenorth> does TrueBrain know that we should be live?
18:46:11  <andythenorth> DISAGREE!
18:46:14  <snail_UES_> I need userbits, to check if different types of engines can be attached in multiple traction.
18:46:27  <snail_UES_> let’s say I have two types of engines
18:46:34  <snail_UES_> engine 1 can have livery A, B or C
18:46:47  <snail_UES_> so refitting stages are: 0 is A, 1 is B, 2 is C
18:46:55  <snail_UES_> engine 2 can have livery B, D, E
18:47:05  <snail_UES_> so refitting stages are: 0 is B, 1 is D, 2 is E
18:47:08  <LordAro> snail_UES_: telling frosch123 that he is wrong about newgrfs is... "courageous"
18:47:18  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yes, 45 minutes ago, it ended already
18:47:18  <snail_UES_> but he is in this case :)
18:47:19  <TrueBrain> you were not there
18:47:32  <andythenorth> TrueBrain blink and we missed it
18:47:47  <snail_UES_> the only way to figure out whether engines 1 and 2 have the same livery (in this case, it must be “B”) is through userbits
18:47:53  <andythenorth> incidentally I took child #2 for covid test this morning, hope that is negative
18:47:58  <snail_UES_> you can’t go there by simple refitting
18:48:07  <andythenorth> doing a livestream with a fever would be 'interesting'
18:48:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8480: Multitile depots
18:48:22  <snail_UES_> because, in my set, sometimes, livery “A” for engine “1” is unavailable (if certain wagons are attached to it)
18:48:39  <snail_UES_> so refit cycle “0” can be either livery “A” or livery “B”, depending on what’s attached to the consist
18:48:44  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Can you catch covid from a livestream?
18:48:45  <frosch123> snail_UES_: again, it's possible without userbits. you are free to go the detour via userbits, if that is easier for you
18:48:48  <snail_UES_> this is why frosch123 is wrong :)
18:48:50  <frosch123> but they are not needed
18:48:50  <andythenorth> Timberwolf not as far as we know
18:49:02  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ also which cargo do you use for this?
18:49:04  <snail_UES_> frosch123: they are needed in this case
18:49:10  <andythenorth> and will I be banning the set with FIRS? :)
18:49:19  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: passengers
18:49:25  <andythenorth> wise choice
18:49:28  <frosch123> snail_UES_: the engineid can also be read. a lot of newgrf use that. andy does it a lot, quite sure pikka and V also do
18:49:43  <snail_UES_> of course, I also read the engineid
18:49:55  <snail_UES_> but as I explained before, engineid and refitting cycle are not enough
18:50:02  <andythenorth> sounds complicated
18:50:08  * andythenorth keeps things simple 
18:50:11  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: did you finish (and share) the script btw? :D
18:50:21  <snail_UES_> you have to check for the presence or not of certain wagons, and sometimes, certain variants of it (like, a mail wagon built before 1904)
18:50:33  <andythenorth> TrueBrain no, I have a draft, but work has gone a bit silly, and I have potentially covid child #1
18:50:41  <andythenorth> oops wrong child, not that it matters
18:50:43  <andythenorth> child #2
18:50:47  <andythenorth> but I am confident
18:50:48  <TrueBrain> more reason to not leave the rest hanging :)
18:51:09  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: yes, my set is not simple :p
18:51:14  <snail_UES_> maybe my mind is too complicated?
18:51:18  <andythenorth> TrueBrain this is a dry fun for disagreeing
18:51:21  <andythenorth> fun?
18:51:22  <andythenorth> run?
18:51:41  <andythenorth> frosch123 so do you have 10 'top 3 worst newgrf things'?
18:51:54  * andythenorth wonders who has longest list of worst 3 things
18:52:01  <Timberwolf> Reddit already did that.
18:52:07  <Timberwolf> 4x, 2x, and 32bpp.
18:52:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: i have like 10 things, but only 3 or 4 are entertaining
18:52:22  <frosch123> the rest is "too technical"
18:52:38  <andythenorth> well you can also mention the time I broke the nml repot
18:52:42  <andythenorth> repo *
18:52:49  <andythenorth> that was actually one of my worst openttd days
18:53:08  <frosch123> you have to talk about that, because i don't remember it :)
18:53:37  <andythenorth> I pushed an NRT early draft to master on openttdcoop
18:53:44  <andythenorth> probably with hg
18:54:03  <andythenorth> was a bit stressful
18:54:22  <andythenorth> do you remember the fork bomb I sent you?
18:55:13  <frosch123> i remember how you split a 20 second compile into 100 parts, which each needed 0.5 seconds for startup
18:55:23  <FLHerne> andythenorth: "bug in nml means pax car running costs are 3x what they are shown as in purchase menu"  <- does that mean "bug in NMLC" ?
18:55:24  <andythenorth> that too
18:55:32  <frosch123> so they did 0.5 seconds startup, and 0.2 seconds actual work
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18:55:48  <andythenorth> FLHerne yes, it's related to result returned if var access fails
18:55:54  <andythenorth> frosch123 knows more
18:55:55  <frosch123> FLHerne: it's not a "bug". it's a missing feature
18:56:16  <FLHerne> hm?
18:57:15  <frosch123> FLHerne: newgrf have a concept about some variables not being "available". reading them kind of "throws an exception", aborts the current switch, and continues with the first switch case
18:57:34  <frosch123> the idea is to make nml insert a "case 1..0" as first case everywheere
18:57:42  <frosch123> and link it to "defined behavior"
18:57:46  <frosch123> by default "CB_FAILED"
18:58:13  <frosch123> currently nml explains the raw nfo behavior, which noone expects, not even nfo coders :p
18:58:21  <frosch123> s/explains/exposes/
18:59:02  <frosch123> so, the "bug" is a missing "abstraction" to make nml not as terrible as nfo :)
18:59:58  <frosch123> FLHerne: oh, just in case you wonder. the nfo specs mention this in a single sentence, hidden in some paragraph :p
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19:00:22  <frosch123> you are more likely to discover it by reading ottd source
19:00:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8914: Doc: Prepare for 1.11.0 release
19:00:50  <frosch123> let's create an issue for this
19:03:34  <Wolf01> andythenorth how is going with cargoflow?
19:03:59  <andythenorth> Wolf01 I learnt how to cluster in subgraphs
19:04:13  <andythenorth> this is about as good as it will get 4.0.0 I think
19:04:33  <andythenorth> I mostly cluster cargos
19:04:49  <Wolf01> Looks nice
19:04:59  <andythenorth> it gives the 'shape' of the economy much more now
19:05:07  <andythenorth> kind of relates to how it's played in game
19:05:14  <andythenorth> the order of connecting things
19:05:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8914: Doc: Prepare for 1.11.0 release
19:07:26  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: any reason why “paints and coating” (COAT) needed to have a separate label than ECS’s “dyes” cargo?
19:07:44  <snail_UES_> other than giving more work to other trainset developers, of course… ;)
19:10:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 opened issue #198: Provide abstraction for intuitive behavior of "unavailable" variables
19:10:23  <frosch123> FLHerne: readable?
19:10:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8914: Doc: Prepare for 1.11.0 release
19:12:08  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ because re-using cargo labels is a proven failure pattern?
19:12:13  <andythenorth> there is zero cost to a new one
19:12:29  <snail_UES_> but ECS and FIRS will never co-exist in a game
19:12:40  <andythenorth> I am failing to see the case :)
19:13:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8914: Doc: Prepare for 1.11.0 release
19:13:05  <snail_UES_> using the same label for a very similar cargo would mean that my set would already know how to treat COAT in FIRS
19:13:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8914: Doc: Prepare for 1.11.0 release
19:13:11  <TrueBrain> lol @ GItHub
19:13:16  <TrueBrain> that is just stupid
19:13:34  <andythenorth> you'll never be able to keep up with FIRS cargos
19:13:34  <LordAro> lol
19:13:41  <andythenorth> it's not even a goal
19:13:48  <snail_UES_> like this, instead, I’ll have to work on my code and specify that COAT has to be treated just like DYES
19:13:55  <snail_UES_> hahahaha
19:14:05  <andythenorth> I can't keep up with FIRS cargos
19:14:07  <snail_UES_> why? don’t you want other trainsets to support your industries?
19:14:17  <andythenorth> I literally don't care either way
19:14:22  <andythenorth> I tried caring, it has no value
19:14:28  <andythenorth> just wastes a lot of motivation
19:14:56  <snail_UES_> but what’s the fun in having so many cargo types in an industry set, if no vehicle set will ever be able to keep up?
19:15:05  <andythenorth> I don't understand the question
19:15:34  <TrueBrain> I think I did not break it ...
19:15:35  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8914: Doc: Prepare for 1.11.0 release
19:15:40  <andythenorth> Timberwolf livestream!
19:15:46  <andythenorth> how to keep up with FIRS cargos!
19:15:47  <FLHerne> The main purpose of cargo types is to make your trains look pretty and varied
19:16:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: cargo classes!
19:16:10  <FLHerne> Thus having vehicles support them with custom graphics is essential
19:16:11  <snail_UES_> you have many cool cargos in FIRS, but if no trainset can handle them properly (with the correct graphics, the right wagons etc) then what’s the point?
19:16:21  <andythenorth> I don't understand the question
19:16:24  <andythenorth> :P
19:16:38  <FLHerne> [there is One True Way To Play]
19:16:47  <andythenorth> the point is to have more cargos
19:16:52  <andythenorth> that's it
19:16:55  <andythenorth> all finis
19:16:59  <andythenorth> terminado!
19:17:03  <andythenorth> cookies
19:17:05  <frosch123> snail_UES_: isn't the opposite "never add a new cargo that no vehicle set yet supports" just as sily?
19:17:05  <andythenorth> prizes
19:17:22  <snail_UES_> frosch123: yes, agree. There should be a balance
19:17:39  <andythenorth> I mean nobody noticed that FIRS has destroyed the 'balance' for passenger vehicles for the last 10 years
19:17:48  <andythenorth> so eh
19:17:50  <snail_UES_> but Andy just told us that no one will ever be able to keep up… :p
19:17:54  <andythenorth> vehicle set lolz
19:18:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: weird, because they noticed that ottd destroyed purchase/running costs immediately :p
19:18:44  <andythenorth> funny isn't it
19:20:26  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ I'm not sure if I can add many more cargos actually
19:20:34  <andythenorth> I'm running out of 2-letter abbreviations for them
19:20:40  <andythenorth> which are used...somewhere in OpenTTD
19:20:42  <andythenorth> that I never see
19:20:55  <frosch123> station list :)
19:21:04  <TrueBrain> LordAro: GitHub says you changed the title .. but they are identical?
19:22:49  <LordAro> TrueBrain: trailing space :p
19:22:59  <snail_UES_> you need a 2-letter abbreviation for a cargo type? I didn’t know
19:23:01  <LordAro> i noticed it in the dorpsgek messages :p
19:23:11  <TrueBrain> ..... LOL
19:23:16  <TrueBrain> and I was thinking my OCD was bad :D
19:23:17  <TrueBrain> tnx :)
19:23:25  <snail_UES_> if you tell me you might not add more for the “foreseeable future” :p I’ll update my trainset to support the new ones
19:23:53  <andythenorth> I have quite a lot to test
19:24:05  <snail_UES_> some of them are just variations… turns out I already drew steel beams, sheets, and cables as random variants of “steel” cargo
19:24:43  <snail_UES_> so I’ll just have to code each of them as STSE, STSH, and STWR cargo types
19:24:48  <andythenorth> if I do the chemicals economy, they are all tank cars
19:24:58  <andythenorth> but I might not do it, because it would all be tank cars
19:25:03  <snail_UES_> all tanks, but different colors, right?
19:25:09  <andythenorth> or I could do a new PIPE grf
19:25:10  <snail_UES_> and different types of tanks...
19:39:06  <TrueBrain> lol, I got Steam Awards for replying on that "why bother?!" post :P
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19:39:52  <LordAro> lol
19:42:52  <FLHerne> It's a good reply
19:43:48  <TrueBrain> tnx :)
19:45:12  <frosch123> "poetry" :)
19:45:48  <glx> <snail_UES_> maybe my mind is too complicated? <-- seems as complicated as andythenorth's (you heard about his loop unrolling ? )
19:46:12  <snail_UES_> his loop unrolling?
19:46:17  <andythenorth> that's not complicated :)
19:46:27  <andythenorth> I just wrote my own vars because OpenTTD doesn't provide
19:46:45  <andythenorth> "it's just a recursion"
19:46:50  <andythenorth> oh I've been around Eddi|zuHause too long :)
19:46:56  <andythenorth> oof
19:47:12  <andythenorth> I even suggest state machines as solutions for things at work
19:47:12  <FLHerne> snail_UES_: Have you seen FIRS' generated nml source recently? If not, be sure not to
19:47:25  <andythenorth> FIRS source is fine
19:47:30  <andythenorth> it's Iron Horse that's mad
19:47:42  <andythenorth> FIRS is small and mostly not mad
19:47:51  <andythenorth> still very slow to compile but eh
19:47:55  <andythenorth> 12 seconds :(
19:48:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling i'm way too nice... :p
19:48:13  <andythenorth> m4nfo is instant compile?
19:48:25  <snail_UES_> m4nfo compiles in a few seconds
19:48:38  <snail_UES_> and it depends on which part of the set you’re working on...
19:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm fairly sure you'll manage to not-instance it
19:49:07  <glx> FLHerne: about the "bug", it's third sentence in section above
19:49:12  <snail_UES_> like, if I make a change in a specific vehicle, I only recompile that specific part of the code, and it takes like 2-3 seconds
19:49:39  <glx> as said, very hidden info
19:49:59  <andythenorth> yeah m4nfo is much faster
19:50:06  <andythenorth> much much much
19:50:22  <snail_UES_> the recoloring tables are a pain in the butt, but that’s because I set them up before sprite stacking was avaialble. I’ve got A7F of them
19:50:46  <andythenorth> you did generate them from code?
19:50:47  <frosch123> is that a number or a censored curse word? :p
19:50:50  <andythenorth> not manually written?
19:50:57  <snail_UES_> sorry, 0x1A7F
19:51:18  <snail_UES_> sometimes I write hex the Commodore 64 way (with a “$”) :p
19:51:40  <andythenorth> oh wait m4nfo is only faster for trains
19:51:42  <andythenorth> nvm
19:51:50  <andythenorth> I remember why I didn't switch
19:52:00  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: nope, I generated them though Ctrl-C + Ctrl-V, and Ctrl-F :D
19:52:32  <andythenorth> ouch
19:52:48  <snail_UES_> yeah, prior to sprite stacking it was a pain.
19:53:10  <snail_UES_> Now I’ll be able to disentangle lights, wagon color, and cargo color
19:53:14  <andythenorth> 6783 recolour tables?
19:53:38  <snail_UES_> something like that. They include 4 different states of “age / dirt” condition, plus 8 states for the lights
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19:53:54  <glx> ok you're crazy ;)
19:53:55  <snail_UES_> so basically I’ve got 32 tables for each combination of colors
19:54:06  <andythenorth> ouch
19:54:21  <snail_UES_> I wish sprite stacking had been there much earlier :)
19:54:46  <frosch123> isn't it like 4 years old?
19:54:48  <andythenorth> why is everything about newgrf so mad?
19:54:57  <andythenorth> do other games have such modding frameworks?
19:55:05  <snail_UES_> frosch123: yes, but I started my set much earlier
19:55:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think the problem are "train people" :p
19:55:25  <snail_UES_> I’m going to do the standard gauge using that, so I’ll have much fewer recoloring tables
19:55:26  <glx> answer is easy andythenorth, it was added with ttdpatch
19:55:39  <andythenorth> frosch123 train people did invent computer games, so it's full circle
19:55:39  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Minecraft is just as bad
19:55:40  <glx> so of course it uses the hacky solution
19:56:00  <andythenorth>
19:56:42  <andythenorth> hmm can we analyse newgrfs on Friday
19:56:57  <andythenorth> I'm interested in the complexity of train grfs vs. other grfs
19:57:06  <andythenorth> can we do the call graph or something?
19:57:12  <frosch123> i still want to do the "guess the graph" game
19:57:13  <andythenorth> livestream!
19:57:20  <frosch123> still haven't dont it :p
19:57:29  <andythenorth> grf bingo!
19:57:58  <andythenorth> or this game, but with grfs!
19:58:03  <andythenorth> long link :o
19:58:07  <andythenorth> silly google
19:58:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: cool, that features an andy, a tyler, a matt and a chris :)
19:59:38  <snail_UES_> well, most “train people” are rivet counters. And rivet counters are very complicated people to deal with
19:59:39  <andythenorth> we could show code samples and guess who wrote it
19:59:47  <snail_UES_> so they will love complicated solutions for anything...
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20:00:12  <andythenorth> oh we have a game show in the UK based on different people trying to lie and not get caught
20:00:15  <andythenorth> or something
20:00:27  * andythenorth can't remember detail
20:00:36  <andythenorth> but we could all pretend a piece of code isn't ours
20:00:41  <andythenorth> but it belongs to one of us
20:00:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: you mean: someone explains something weird about newgrf, and the other have to judge whether that is true?
20:01:03  <andythenorth> yeah that
20:01:11  <LordAro> all your code are belong to us?
20:01:50  <andythenorth> there's a radio game where you have to narrate a subject for a minute or two, and include 3 lies
20:01:53  <frosch123> firs said: all your cargoslots are belong to us
20:01:56  <andythenorth> without the other players spotting the lies
20:02:17  <andythenorth> or turths
20:02:21  * andythenorth can't remember
20:05:03  <andythenorth>
20:07:41  <LordAro> needs more Just a Minute
20:16:04  <andythenorth> talk for 1 minute about nfo
20:16:15  <andythenorth> without deviation, hesitation, or repetition
20:16:25  <frosch123> talk for 1 minute in nfo
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20:18:20  <frosch123> ooh... idea: wikis have that useless "random page" link
20:18:36  <frosch123> click it, and explain the content :p
20:18:57  *** jottyfan has quit IRC
20:18:59  <glx> and notice how it's wrong ?
20:19:04  *** jottyfan has joined #openttd
20:19:20  <frosch123> the wiki content, or the explanation?
20:19:31  <glx> the content (probably outdated)
20:19:47  <frosch123> the newgrf wiki is not that bad
20:20:10  <glx> ah yes old not really changing stuff
20:20:11  <frosch123> ottd wiki no longer has that button, TrueBrain said it's useless
20:20:38  <glx> so I agree newgrf wiki should be quite correct
20:20:47  <frosch123> <- though good luck, if you end up there :)
20:20:50  <andythenorth> newgrf wiki is really quite good
20:21:01  <andythenorth> it's very rarely the most annoying thing about authoring newgrfs :)
20:23:08  <frosch123> <- there are also joker pages
20:25:55  <glx> good luck with varact2 pages ;)
20:26:14  <glx> especially advanced
20:26:19  <frosch123> <- that page is already features in another section of the stream :)
20:26:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthew57778 opened issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction
20:28:13  <glx> hmm I'd say probably already fixed
20:28:25  <glx> let's test
20:28:44  <frosch123> doesn't work for rail
20:30:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthew57778 commented on issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction
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20:30:50  <glx> ah nice pictures
20:31:03  <frosch123> oh, that's not how i tried
20:31:35  <glx> yeah I would have tried as you did, from entrance to exit
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20:33:23  <frosch123> works in master, let's compile 1.10.3
20:34:18  <frosch123> 1.10.3 also works for me
20:35:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction
20:38:43  <glx> maybe windows specific
20:38:53  <glx> compiling 1.10.3
20:39:00  <LordAro> james is also on windows, iirc
20:39:15  <frosch123> but not on 1.10.3 apparently
20:39:18  <glx> yes but I don't think he tried to reproduce
20:39:51  <LordAro> "since it does not crash for me on Windows 10 and OpenTTD f9d24ff"
20:40:39  <glx> yes on master it doesn't crash (I tried)
20:40:58  <glx> but I want to check if it does in 1.10.3
20:41:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8914: Doc: Prepare for 1.11.0 release
20:41:40  <LordAro> could theoretically be release-build only?
20:42:06  <glx> possible but first I'll try debug build
20:43:31  <glx> maybe an optimisation "error", but symptom seems to be infinite loop
20:49:08  <frosch123> then you would have to try the official binary
20:49:15  <frosch123> so you have the exact compiler match
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20:51:06  <glx> it's planned yes
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20:53:11  <frosch123> anyway, no report from valgrind here. no suspicious looking code, so i blame user error :)
20:53:43  <glx> tried official build, no issue
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21:02:44  <frosch123> close?
21:03:05  <glx> maybe I could try 32bit version too
21:04:05  <frosch123> it's probably caused by firs :p
21:04:32  <frosch123> oh shoot. did you see the rail toolbar
21:04:46  <frosch123> it's one of these freaking citybuilder clients, that pretends to be 1.10.3
21:05:04  <glx> oh but I indeed tried 32bit (default debug build when opening the project)
21:05:26  <frosch123> and?
21:05:59  <glx> and no crash
21:07:04  <LordAro> oh no
21:07:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction
21:07:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction
21:07:22  <LordAro> good catch
21:10:20  <_dp_> yeah, I can repro it on cmclient but not vanilla
21:10:40  <LordAro> bad citybuilder client
21:10:43  <LordAro> don't do that
21:10:57  <_dp_> >:)
21:13:34  <frosch123> do you also have that weird selective-demolish tool?
21:14:57  <_dp_> you mean treedozer? it's relatively useful :p
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21:26:07  <_dp_>
21:27:23  <andythenorth> tweaked Tropic layout
21:27:27  <andythenorth> old
21:27:46  <andythenorth> boring economy anyway :P
21:27:49  <andythenorth> all food
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21:48:55  <frosch123> oh, you changed the arrows again :)
21:49:11  <frosch123> is good
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22:13:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction
22:23:03  <supermop_Home_> wwwooooo
22:23:12  <supermop_Home_> got an appointment scheduled
22:31:11  *** iSoSyS has quit IRC
22:37:46  <snail_UES_> supermop_Home_: wow! lucky you :)
22:37:53  <snail_UES_> which website did you use to schedule it?
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23:46:20  <Wuzzy> LordAro: orudge: It seems that OpenSFX 1.0.1 can be found on but on BaNaNaS it is still 1.0.0. Intentional?
23:49:16  <LordAro> Wuzzy: i aven't updated it yet
23:49:22  <LordAro> so yes, it's intentional in that regard
23:49:29  <Wuzzy> oh, so BaNaNaS is manual?
23:49:56  <Wuzzy> also:
23:50:03  <Wuzzy> but ok, thanks for noticing

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