Log for #openttd on 14th May 2021:
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00:32:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #9241: Some tree brushes do not mark tiles as a rainforest
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02:04:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #9264: Incorrect autoreplace behaviour when temporary free-wagon chains exceed the train length limit
02:24:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9264: Incorrect autoreplace behaviour when temporary free-wagon chains exceed the train length limit
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03:06:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8279: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
03:06:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz closed pull request #8279: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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08:16:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 updated pull request #9263: Codechange: [Network] Use std::string for passwords or hashes thereof
08:28:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 updated pull request #9263: Codechange: [Network] Use std::string for passwords or hashes thereof
08:35:22  <peter1138> IT'S FRIDAY
08:36:08  <Rubidium> I guess some people beg to differ with you on that ;)
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08:42:10  <andythenorth> does GS run when game is paused?
08:45:01  <peter1138> Breakfast?
08:45:35  <andythenorth> one orange
08:45:38  <andythenorth> some cornflakes
08:45:46  <andythenorth> various tedious gut medicines
08:46:13  <Rubidium> andythenorth: based on the code I would guess it is. It might be that performing a command halts it because it needs to wait until the command has been executed
08:46:31  * andythenorth wants to plant a 'town hall' industry in every town
08:46:40  <andythenorth> and the only way to do that might be a dedicated GS
08:46:51  <andythenorth> which pauses the game on start, then places industries until all done
08:46:52  <Rubidium> andythenorth: I reckon you can prove it by just printing some (different) text in a loop and then yielding for that tick
08:48:01  <Rubidium> andythenorth: though... during map creation there are a lot of ticks where the game script seems to be running
08:48:18  <Rubidium>
08:48:30  <andythenorth> thanks
08:48:39  <andythenorth> this isn't something I could release, it's just to test a concept
08:48:57  <andythenorth> there's no way players will be able to download both a specific FIRS version and the correct version of a GS
08:49:03  <andythenorth> and get them both into the game
08:52:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] HelmiMUC opened issue #9265: Bug Report
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09:02:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on issue #9265: Bug Report
09:03:30  <FLHerne> ^ "Bug" is that "Unload all" doesn't imply "Unload and leave empty" by default
09:05:30  <LordAro> mm
09:05:44  <TrueBrain> surprised me too :P
09:05:56  <LordAro> that window is a mess
09:06:23  <LordAro> well, those buttons specifically are a mess
09:17:29  <FLHerne> Yeah, tbh I think it might be better if it did
09:17:40  <TrueBrain> LordAro: it is .. but a good design to fix it is hard
09:17:44  <peter1138> I might look at group-orders at some point.
09:17:46  <TrueBrain> without ofc going in a totally other direction
09:18:04  <FLHerne> LordAro: Have you seen the JGR version?
09:18:10  <FLHerne> It's just getting absurd
09:18:36  <FLHerne> (you can choose sets of cargo to station-refit to and so on)
09:21:11  <TrueBrain> did anyone ever make a patch that the order window tells you which stations you can reach?
09:21:17  <TrueBrain> so you can just click them, instead of scrolling to it?
09:21:51  <andythenorth> airports!
09:21:53  <andythenorth> :)
09:22:01  * andythenorth says words
09:22:30  <LordAro> FLHerne: quite
09:22:33  <LordAro> andythenorth: boats!
09:22:45  <peter1138> can you click on a station in the station list?
09:22:52  <FLHerne> Yes
09:23:03  <peter1138> surprising
09:23:21  <FLHerne> In general, OTTD UI seems quite good at being able to click on the thing
09:23:26  <peter1138> (I mean click on with goto order to add the order, not just click on it)
09:23:41  <andythenorth> no
09:23:48  <andythenorth> it scrolls to the station
09:24:43  <TrueBrain> well, what happens to me a lot, that I clone a vehicle on an other part of the infra, and that I forget to change the orders
09:24:54  <TrueBrain> but it just leaves the depot and starts to do what-ever-the-fuck-it-wants
09:25:05  <TrueBrain> kinda miss the feedback of "station not reachable" a lot easier :D
09:25:07  <TrueBrain> and earlier :P
09:25:13  <andythenorth> 'lines'
09:25:15  <FLHerne> Yay, this time I got the crash-on-exit even when using the in-game Exit option
09:25:24  <andythenorth> something something simutrans
09:25:26  <FLHerne> (and it crashed my entire desktop again)
09:28:54  <peter1138> andythenorth, yes, group-orders
09:29:17  <andythenorth> and group consist templates :P
09:29:30  <andythenorth> group shunting
09:29:38  <andythenorth> group 2-way EOL settings
09:29:43  <peter1138> we have group colours, so why not group everything else ;)
09:29:46  <peter1138> oh yes
09:29:48  <peter1138> 2-way WOL
09:29:50  <peter1138> EOL
09:29:55  <andythenorth> group colours the best
09:29:58  <andythenorth> 2-way WOL
09:30:03  <andythenorth> now known as
09:30:17  <peter1138> seems to be grand "fix" to everyone's routing issues...
09:30:24  <andythenorth> for times when you've built signals so complicated, for no obvious reason, that you exploit marginal hacks
09:30:35  <andythenorth> instead of using 1-line-per-train as intended
09:30:40  <peter1138> the penalty is too high so it makes it use a path anyway. or something? i dunno.
09:30:55  <andythenorth> emoji
09:31:13  <peter1138> probably the penalty is high due to the massive chains of pointless presignals
09:31:45  <peter1138> Even devs don't get safe-waiting-points right though :)
09:36:57  <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I should run subtropic next time
09:37:40  <Rubidium> when you said 2-way EOL, I was thinking about
09:38:15  <Rubidium> two buffers on an otherwise physically connected track
09:39:57  <peter1138> heh
09:40:27  <peter1138>
09:40:31  <peter1138> ^ Something to do with that.
09:40:33  <peter1138> I don't know.
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09:42:27  <andythenorth> quak
09:42:35  <frosch123> hoi mammals
09:42:37  <andythenorth> that's an early frosch123 is it holiday?
09:43:13  <frosch123> yesterday was lazy christians day. today is hangover bridge day. but i didn't drink yesterday
09:45:23  <frosch123> but hey, i did my taxes yesterday. that counts for at least 2 workdays, doesn't it?
09:51:11  <_dp_>
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09:51:57  <_dp_> afaict the only reason to not have twoway eol is to make life easier for newbies that signal everything with twoway signals
09:53:05  <_dp_> which is even less meaningful considering the recent effort to make pbs a newbie signal
09:53:06  <andythenorth> something something nothing can ever change because 2 way EOL is the only way to make PBS work
09:53:08  <andythenorth> apparently
09:53:42  <frosch123> _dp_: what about all the effors to ban pbs from servers to reduce cpu usage? :p
09:53:53  <_dp_> frosch123, > /dev/null
09:54:16  <andythenorth> are they the same servers that run big train grfs?
09:54:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: we changed default vehicles yesterday. is that enough change for this week?
09:54:32  <_dp_> frosch123, though at openttcoop level of complexity that may actually be true :p
09:55:00  <andythenorth> frosch123 2.0
09:55:33  <frosch123> i should host a server "hard game, no inflation, no infracost, no breakdowns, to town authority"
09:55:47  <_dp_> frosch123, also pbs are "slow" in a gameplay sense, not cpu usage
09:56:27  <frosch123> what do you mean? does it take longer to build them?
09:56:58  <frosch123> or do you mean lack of priority lines, so slowdown of mainlines?
09:57:29  <_dp_> you can cram more trains into a line with block signals of the same interval
09:57:38  <_dp_> figuratively speaking pbs are slow to switch
09:59:23  <andythenorth> trying to repro my result where a single Iron Horse train cuts 50% of the ffwd rate compared to similar base set train
09:59:39  <andythenorth> not getting stable results, the ffwd speed swings around wildly
09:59:57  <peter1138> The argument about performance was originally throughput, IIRC. It just got morphed into performance, and then CPU performance...
10:00:07  <frosch123> andythenorth: easy, play on 64x64 with no industries
10:00:32  <frosch123> when a train is the only thing in a game, it's effect on cpu load is at maximum
10:00:49  <_dp_> frosch123, also #7941
10:00:51  <peter1138> (Also, block signals do path finding to work out what state they need to be, so "in theory" should cost more in CPU time ;)
10:00:55  <_dp_> terrible name for the bug btw
10:01:03  <andythenorth> I need to turn off autosave and stuff
10:01:13  <peter1138> (Well, not path finding, but track following)
10:01:16  <andythenorth> configuring my game for ffwd-based speed profiling has too many confounding factors :P
10:01:47  <andythenorth> anyway, I think Horse kills performance
10:02:19  <andythenorth> but
10:02:21  <TrueBrain> horse power .. always ruining everything
10:02:25  <peter1138> Does it?
10:02:36  <andythenorth> no data
10:02:42  <andythenorth> chasing rainbows
10:03:24  <peter1138> I performance checked my tree tick change on 4096x4096 and noticed the standard game loop tick is ~ 11ms already.
10:03:39  <peter1138> So I decided I didn't care.
10:04:07  <frosch123> i wondered about measuring cpu time of newgrf
10:04:17  <frosch123> tic/toc is too expensive to do at every newgrf call
10:04:28  <frosch123> so i wondered about a statistical approach
10:04:48  <frosch123> store in some global what newgrf thing we are doing, and then have some sampling thread
10:05:24  <andythenorth> we only need some indication of 'makes a difference, or not' ?
10:05:32  <andythenorth> actual precise timings don't matter?
10:05:46  <peter1138> Nice, eat a whole CPU core monitoring what is eating performance :D
10:05:58  <andythenorth> we have lots
10:06:00  <andythenorth> well I do
10:06:01  <peter1138> Could be a useful debug tool.
10:06:03  <frosch123> we have enough cores for that by now
10:06:14  <andythenorth> I mean...I can only use one of the cores before the mac dumps the thermals
10:06:15  <peter1138> Yeah
10:06:18  <andythenorth> but eh
10:06:33  <andythenorth> 65 i9 poor buying decision
10:06:36  <andythenorth> 65W
10:07:06  <peter1138> Cargo destinations eh?
10:07:12  <andythenorth> maybe
10:07:18  <andythenorth> cargodist is now out of fashion
10:07:26  <andythenorth> pikka has persuaded me it's net worse to play with
10:07:32  <andythenorth> 'next'
10:08:06  <frosch123> "because it plays the game for you" or some other reason?
10:08:46  <andythenorth> because it chokes passenger routes
10:08:57  <andythenorth> and because it doesn't work with FIRS supplies unless tricks are used
10:09:03  <Timberwolf> Passenger generation isn't scaled for it, imo.
10:09:33  <peter1138> It requires existing established routes is its main issue for me.
10:09:36  <andythenorth> and because it prevents multiple destination pickups from one station
10:09:38  <frosch123> ah, so "because it doesn't do what i want'" :)
10:09:41  <andythenorth> yes
10:09:47  <Timberwolf> I found it much nicer in daylength games, where small villages actually end up with a small branch line.
10:09:51  <andythenorth> 'out of fashion' not broken
10:10:13  <andythenorth> as an automated transfer system cdist is really clever
10:11:24  <andythenorth> Timberwolf but it would need to scale passenger generation _down_ which is weird
10:11:26  <andythenorth> :)
10:11:46  <andythenorth> and also transfer payments are a shitshow with big cdist pax network
10:13:00  <FLHerne> Not really, you just ignore them :p
10:14:19  <peter1138> Because cdist works on existing routes, it means that point 2 point still works.
10:14:25  <Timberwolf> I think the correct thing is Simutrans-style for things like passengers.
10:14:58  <Timberwolf> They have a destination in mind, if you have a station near the destination they will generate, if not they won't.
10:15:38  <Timberwolf> Maybe a tolerance on travel time (like Transport Fever).
10:15:57  <peter1138> You need something to tell you where things want to go.
10:16:16  <Timberwolf> Yeah.
10:16:39  <Timberwolf> There is also the opposite problem, which is it being impossible to start with passengers.
10:17:23  <Timberwolf> I always found that with the Simutrans model, it gets a bit, "cool, you've built a nice network between these towns, shame all the passengers want to go to this other place halfway across the map"
10:18:31  <peter1138> Yup
10:18:34  <andythenorth> yacdist
10:18:38  <andythenorth> 'maybe'
10:19:01  <andythenorth> I considered splitting the cargo type to local and long distance pax
10:19:06  <andythenorth> but they can't get on the same bus :P
10:19:12  <andythenorth> actual subtypes anyone?
10:21:04  <frosch123> andythenorth:
10:21:23  <andythenorth> yes
10:21:35  <andythenorth> I read those entire threads recently for $some reason
10:21:41  <andythenorth> and the MHL :P
10:21:47  <andythenorth> and the cargo_age_period
10:22:03  <andythenorth> maybe _that_ is why I am having a forums break
10:22:28  <andythenorth> 100 pages of watching people talk past each and other and make bad decisions due to weird nitpick social politics
10:22:31  <andythenorth> :D
10:22:46  <andythenorth> 'life is better without tt-forums'
10:23:19  * andythenorth loves tt-forum really
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10:43:59  <Timberwolf> The hard thing is a lot of the people who gave good feedback or contributed a lot have wandered off over the years, making the nitpicking and the not-really-reading proportionately larger.
10:45:48  <Timberwolf> If I go back to my original Road Vehicles dev thread there's *way* more advice about technical issues, on-topic answers to questions and people responding to my monologues on how I'm thinking of approaching certain issues.
10:48:15  <peter1138> OpenTTD is dead?
10:51:31  <Timberwolf> This is a general problem IMO, I don't think the modern platforms have the same kind of depth of discussion that the old forums had.
10:52:00  <Timberwolf> I find this a lot with reddits, people don't really discuss stuff, they share screenshots and photos of things.
11:01:46  <Timberwolf> Discord can be good, it's very dependent on the first few people to reply to set the tone.
11:29:13  <andythenorth> the early grfs I made were absolutely dependent on forums
11:29:23  <andythenorth> for getting the shape of an idea, that sort of discussion was great
11:57:54  <Timberwolf> I do miss those days, when you could post some musings on vehicle scales or gameplay ideas and someone would go, "I tried that with my ___ set, it sort of works but I found... there's also ___ if you haven't tried it"
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12:19:12  <andythenorth> discord
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12:19:44  <Timberwolf> Yeah, it's really good for that if you get the time right.
12:20:20  <Timberwolf> If you get it wrong it quickly falls to "uhhh but it doesnt fit with the landscape tho" and never recovers.
12:20:45  <peter1138> There's always some troll on there talking about removing block signals...
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12:23:05  <andythenorth> funny that only happens when you're there :D
12:23:07  <andythenorth> was it lunch?
12:23:19  * andythenorth didn't get a memo
12:28:23  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] stargirl87 opened issue #214: [es_ES] Translator access request
12:29:03  <TrueBrain> I really like how the new translator signup gave a bunch more translators
12:29:09  <TrueBrain> like .. an awful lot more :P
12:29:19  <TrueBrain> people like clicking buttons more than sending emails, I can conclude?
12:31:03  <Rubidium> or maybe a lot of those emails were never delivered due to some unknown reason?
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12:33:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro commented on issue #214: [es_ES] Translator access request
12:33:54  <glx> it's one of the fastest approval :)
12:35:08  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
12:36:16  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Has there been a corresponding increase in the amount of stuff translated?
12:36:53  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: that is a question for frosch123 ; he likes to do stats :P
12:49:32  <glx> highly depends on language I guess
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13:33:19  <frosch123> FLHerne: i checked early april. most translators were either active in the first days after sign-up, or shortly before release
13:33:34  <frosch123> very few are active constantly. quite some have never been active
13:34:03  <frosch123> the latter is also backed up by the percentage of people who never accept the invitation
13:34:44  <frosch123> anyway. i concluded it makes no sense to make any stats without waiting at least a year. so see you in october
13:35:40  <frosch123> oh, and then there were a few, who did not translate anything since sign-up on github, but who translated 70% of a language 10 years ago (or someone with the same nickname) :p
13:37:18  <frosch123> FLHerne: oh another stat: some teams use the team chat a lot, some not at all. of those who do, some discuss in native, some in english
13:39:18  <frosch123> the people who sign-up are also very different. some sign-up to github only for us. some have been active in other projects for years, some claim to be professional translators, some are obviously underaged kids, who do stuff like p1sim
13:39:36  <frosch123> (p1sim is only an example for equivalent efforts)
13:42:17  <TrueBrain> <- lol .. freenode has a nice history of these kind of things
13:43:14  <TrueBrain> haha, all the links from there are no longer available or "draft"
13:43:15  <TrueBrain> lol
13:44:22  <LordAro> mm, seems some sort of Drama is occurring/about to occur
13:45:01  <frosch123> what is the economical potential of hosting a irc network?
13:45:22  <frosch123> just some hedgefond who thought it was a teams alternative?
13:46:37  <glx> I have a warning free MinGW \o/
13:46:47  <TrueBrain> "GitHub Actions has encountered an internal error when running your job." <- ugh :P
13:47:25  <TrueBrain> <- follow-up on link above
13:47:29  <TrueBrain> that is just plain hilarious :D
13:47:55  <TrueBrain> "oopsie" :P
13:49:05  <frosch123> let's have a team-building event where we draft fake-letters of our resignment, to learn what we like about our job.
13:49:08  <frosch123> oops, it leaked?
13:49:27  <TrueBrain> :D
13:49:53  <frosch123> i have no other ideas, why you would "draft" something like that
13:50:14  <TrueBrain> well, before you release it, it is a draft, ofc
13:50:24  <frosch123> "Fake logs, you can't have newlines in IRC messages!" <- i like that one :)
13:50:25  <TrueBrain> but then saying: no no, that content is not valid yet, as it is a draft, now that is weird
13:51:58  <glx> "we'll communicate when we can"
13:57:09  <LordAro> glx: :o
14:09:27  <milek7> weird
14:09:30  <milek7> but maybe they didn't want to publish until their replacement is running (
14:09:59  <LordAro> there are some gag orders going on
14:11:00  <LordAro> it's at least a bit serious
14:16:02  <_dp_> what is irc network anyway and how does that even matter in 2021?
14:17:26  <FLHerne> You ask, via IRC?
14:18:41  <_dp_> it's "network" part that's a mystery to me, not "irc" :p
14:19:56  <_dp_> nobody calls jabber a "network" or discord
14:21:16  <SpComb> org or group of people that run some servers and configure them to form a network
14:21:50  <FLHerne> IRC's a federated protocol with multiple servers per network, often run by different parties
14:21:53  <SpComb> IRCNet/EFNet are the traditional networks, they're organized on a more national level
14:22:33  <FLHerne> _dp_: I'm connected to in Sweden, and you're connected to in London
14:22:48  <SpComb> then you have those like freenode that are run by a single org and organized more around software languages/projects
14:23:14  <glx> yeah freenode is very strict about channel names
14:23:33  <SpComb> and they are very much different networks with different policies and communities etc
14:24:18  <SpComb> a channel only exists on a specific network
14:25:17  <SpComb> you can't connect to an IRCNet server and join #openttd - or you can, but it's a different channel with different users. Probably either empty or very quiet
14:26:25  <glx> ahah ##openttd still exists on freenode, but it's empty now
14:26:39  <glx> "This unofficial channel is available as needed. Please consult the project website for its official IRC location. Thank you for using freenode!"
14:31:48  <frosch123> TrueBrain: how did the meeting with epic go? are they buying ottddistltd as planned?
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14:32:25  <TrueBrain> frosch123: wrong channel ffs
14:32:32  <frosch123> oh shit
14:32:47  <andythenorth> use the secret channel
14:33:11  <TrueBrain> well, his text was only a draft, so we are fine
14:35:05  <TrueBrain> GitHub Actions really doesnt want to start on TrueWiki .. that is annoying
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16:34:55  <andythenorth> goes it a patch?
16:35:19  * andythenorth wants to circumvent industry count rules
16:49:16  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] w13 opened issue #215: [id_ID] Translator access request
17:02:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 opened pull request #9266: Codechange: use std::string in network chat
17:07:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #9267: Heap use after free in Squirrel delayed memory deallocation when AI deallocated
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17:14:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on issue #9265: Bug Report
17:58:10  <glx> ok after upgrading my mingw install, release build with mingw32 stops failing to link, but it warns
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18:58:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #215: [id_ID] Translator access request
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19:38:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on issue #9267: Heap use after free in Squirrel delayed memory deallocation when AI deallocated
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19:58:11  <peter1138> Oh
19:59:11  <andythenorth> does the livery refit callback have limited vars available?
19:59:20  <andythenorth> trying to help someone on discord
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20:04:49  <andythenorth> nice stable wifi network
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20:18:09  <peter1138> Might chuck out some of these old laptops.
20:24:21  <andythenorth> is one a dead mac :P
20:25:27  <peter1138> Funnily enough...
20:28:59  <peter1138> Chunk bevels with non-integer scaling, eh?
20:32:24  <andythenorth>  chunk
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20:43:09  <peter1138> 3 pixel wide bevels, yes.
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20:47:56  <peter1138> andythenorth_, get me some non-integer sprite scaling
20:48:09  <andythenorth_> sprite scaling :o
20:48:28  <andythenorth_> non integer extra zoom?
20:48:35  <andythenorth_> goes it sub-pixel anti-aliasing?
20:48:52  <peter1138> nyet
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20:55:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] Abbin44 opened issue #216: [sv_SE] Translator access request
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20:58:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #9268: [MinGW] Fix MinGW32 build failure and almost all MinGW32/MinGW64 warnings
21:09:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9266: Codechange: use std::string in network chat
21:09:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9263: Codechange: [Network] Use std::string for passwords or hashes thereof
21:10:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9260: Codechange: use thread safe time functions
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21:22:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 merged pull request #9263: Codechange: [Network] Use std::string for passwords or hashes thereof
21:22:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 merged pull request #9260: Codechange: use thread safe time functions
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22:06:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Andrew350 commented on issue #9265: Bug Report
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23:39:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 updated pull request #9126: D3D11 video driver

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