Log for #openttd on 5th June 2021:
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00:16:18  <peter1138> originally it was separate arrays, like how the map is saved.
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06:56:43  <LordAro> needs michi's newmap branch :p
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07:08:48  <Wolf01> I still can't play a decent tank game... I should decide if I want to play pong or the exact opposite, not both at the same time
07:10:31  <TrueBrain> LordAro: or any of the other 5 "newmap" branches OpenTTD has seen over the 17 years :P :P
07:10:55  <Rubidium> tfc_newmap?
07:18:55  <andythenorth> we need a new map? :o
07:20:17  * andythenorth likes the old map
07:26:39  <TrueBrain> playing the same map becomes a bit boring at some point
07:26:44  <TrueBrain> sometimes you just have to take a new seed and run with it
07:50:34  <andythenorth> does anybody here know about programming?
07:50:38  * andythenorth tried to make a PR and got stuck
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07:58:42  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: your last comment in that thread makes 0 sense to me when looking at the code
07:58:52  <TrueBrain> I don't see iterating over any vehicle :P
07:59:07  <TrueBrain> also given that the last push you did was essentially empty ..
07:59:10  <TrueBrain> did you commit the right thing there?
07:59:49  <andythenorth> well that could be embarassing
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08:01:34  <TrueBrain> you don't have to quit out of embarrassment now :P
08:01:39  <LordAro> mysterious
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08:14:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure'
08:27:06  <Wolf01> 8 trains in 40 seconds... sure try with just 2 tracks
08:43:23  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] EmperorJake commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
08:46:41  <TrueBrain> (((int)(((unsigned char)((int)type)) & 15)) | ((int)SLE_VAR_NULL))
08:46:41  <TrueBrain> why does it insist on casting to int so much, ugh
08:46:55  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: ps: you just pushed another empty change to that PR, just so you know
08:47:04  <TrueBrain> did you forget to commit, and are the changes still staged?
08:48:21  <TrueBrain> I love I could solve the issue by using some strong language: "(type & 0xfu) | SLE_VAR_NULL"
08:55:05  <andythenorth> hmm maybe I have failed at git somehow
08:55:40  <andythenorth> I can see my shell history, "git add ." is my usual lazy way, but hasn't added the files to staging
08:55:44  <andythenorth> unusual
08:55:52  * andythenorth such git
09:04:01  <LordAro> add -u
09:04:10  <LordAro> unless you're actually adding new files
09:09:26  <TrueBrain> I have a setting somewhere that has no name .. hmm
09:12:09  <TrueBrain> FOUND IT!
09:12:10  <TrueBrain> :D
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09:30:44  <Wolf01> How?
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09:34:01  <Wolf01> I would like to put a checkbox with no label or tooltip in one of my softwares, just for fun
09:37:57  <TrueBrain> hmm .. so my Python reader can read a certain savegame just fine
09:38:02  <TrueBrain> but the OpenTTD client is missing 22 bytes
09:38:04  <TrueBrain> and I don't know why :D
09:51:34  <TrueBrain> okay, found which 22 bytes they are, I just don't understand why :P
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09:57:26  <TrueBrain> grrrrr ... found it ... took only over 30 minutes to spot it .. and it is such an iny tiny minor detail
09:57:26  <TrueBrain> ugh
10:00:45  <andythenorth> lol andythenorth is silly
10:00:53  <andythenorth> trying to make git commits with git add .
10:01:23  <andythenorth> but pwd is build
10:01:36  <TrueBrain> so start using git add -A :P
10:02:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure'
10:02:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9322: Add: store table header for each chunk in savegame
10:03:22  <TrueBrain> right, now my savegame-reader tool can read industries \o/
10:03:28  <TrueBrain> that was .. painful
10:04:01  <andythenorth> \o/
10:04:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure'
10:04:20  <TrueBrain> gratz andythenorth
10:04:23  <TrueBrain> and here, the solution :P
10:04:37  <andythenorth> hurrah
10:04:53  <TrueBrain> pretty sure you could have come up with that yourself ;)
10:05:00  <andythenorth> you would have won that bet
10:06:28  <TrueBrain> code-wise it reads fine, but I also read people disagreeing over the specs :P
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10:24:09  <michi_cc> I'm apparently not a good judge for NewGRF, so I'm not going to touch it, not even with a very long stick.
11:12:22  <andythenorth> OpenGL shader for night mode?
11:24:56  <nielsm> issue with night mode is still that you want lights on, which needs new art
11:25:58  <_dp_> OpenTTD RTX? :p
11:25:59  <TrueBrain> nah, just an AI calculating where to add lights
11:26:01  <TrueBrain> should be easy
11:27:23  <_dp_> yeah, moddable AI
11:27:28  <_dp_> make api -> problem solved
11:27:54  <TrueBrain> we just have to train it, so we let people click on the map where lights should be
11:27:59  <TrueBrain> and it should pick up on it quickly enough
11:28:05  <TrueBrain> some distributed cloud blockchain, and we are done
11:28:13  <nielsm> could make a system where you can supply PNG files to replace selected sprites with night-mode versions
11:31:55  <TrueBrain> oooorrrrrrrr
11:31:59  <TrueBrain> we can force andythenorth to make them
11:32:01  <TrueBrain> >:D
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11:39:43  <andythenorth> nielsm most buildings use the same purple for windows
11:40:15  <andythenorth> or we could extend grf with a lights layer which contains windows, neon signs, etc
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11:40:42  <TrueBrain> neon signs :D
11:41:10  <TrueBrain> when a town builds properly it spells "you are weird"
11:42:22  <_dp_> I have a revolutionary idea...
11:42:31  <_dp_> ... how about fixing daylight graphics first? :p
11:43:39  <TrueBrain> if you take care of that, we will work on the night
11:44:23  <_dp_> funnily enough I'm actually drawing some pixels right now
11:44:29  <_dp_> though result suggests I'd rather not :p
11:46:31  <TrueBrain> about half-way converting stupid chunks to tables .. ugggghhh ... slllloooowwwwwww
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11:57:27  <TrueBrain> and .. now with signs-support
11:57:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9322: Add: store table header for each chunk in savegame
12:00:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 opened pull request #220: Fix #209: Cargo 'profit' callback applied a unit conversion, when there was no unit.
12:01:43  <frosch123> oh, that kind of signs...
12:01:59  <frosch123> i was on the signed/unsigned integer track :p
12:02:00  <TrueBrain> reason I used plural :)
12:02:29  <frosch123> i just assumed you already skipped ahead to storing numbers as text in json :p
12:07:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 commented on pull request #220: Fix #209: Cargo 'profit' callback applied a unit conversion, when there was no unit.
12:08:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9322: Add: store table header for each chunk in savegame
12:08:46  <TrueBrain> okay ... finished the easy ones ..
12:12:44  <TrueBrain> stations and vehicles are just a mess
12:14:12  <TrueBrain> why are roadstops special?
12:14:15  <TrueBrain> (stored in their own chunk)
12:15:06  <TrueBrain> owh, no, it is just the linked list
12:15:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure'
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12:17:35  <TrueBrain> frosch123: <- happen to have a smart/good idea how to store a header for a chunk like this?
12:18:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure'
12:22:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure'
12:24:02  <andythenorth> can trains have their toilets emptied in a depot?
12:24:09  <andythenorth> and the drinks bar restocked?
12:30:12  <frosch123> TrueBrain: you mean, how to solve if a tablecell contains a list of structures? currently the only variable-length celltype is a string, right? maybe there could be a celltype for "list of uint/int8/16/32/64", then the "list of structs" could be decomposed into multiple lists of trivial types
12:30:29  <TrueBrain> list of uint already exists
12:30:42  <TrueBrain> (SL_ARR)
12:31:52  <frosch123> ok, so when changing the format, it could be handled by the schema. but that does not allow loading old games with a compaitiblity-schema :)
12:32:28  <frosch123> hmm, though in this case it would actually work, since the arrays are fixed size
12:32:29  <TrueBrain> so instead of {a, b, c, [{d1, e1, f1}, {d2, e2, f2}] you suggest making it {a1, b1, c1, [d1, d2], [e1, e2], [f1, f2]} ?
12:32:39  <frosch123> yes
12:33:20  <TrueBrain> station has 1 substruct with 20 (!) elements
12:33:48  <frosch123> and in the _compat make it a {a1, b1, c1, d[0], e[0], f[0], d[1], e[1], f[1]}
12:33:48  <TrueBrain> of which 1 is a list :D
12:34:13  <TrueBrain> so I can see it working for towns etc, but for that station blob ..
12:35:09  <TrueBrain> owh, and 1 sub-struct is dynamic in size .. lol
12:35:53  <TrueBrain> (as in, it doesn't use NUM_CARGO or something)
12:36:13  <TrueBrain> so that idea won't work for all cases .. meh ..
12:36:34  <TrueBrain> but I do wonder if we can't have a list of structs ..
12:36:41  <TrueBrain> the size is known
12:37:16  <TrueBrain> so we could do: {header1, header2, INDICATOR-LIST-OF-STRUCT, 0} {subheader1, subheader2}
12:37:18  <TrueBrain> if that makes sense
12:37:49  <TrueBrain> so when reading the header you get to know there is another header following to construct the struct for the list
12:37:59  <TrueBrain> also means we need to store NUM_CARGO in the savegame, but that is a good idea either way
12:38:40  <frosch123> i am still trying to figure out what the station is actually storing there :p
12:39:49  <TrueBrain> {_station_desc} + NUM_CARGO * { {GetGoodsDesc} + cargo_size * {_cargo_list_desc} }
12:39:55  <TrueBrain> a list of structs in a list of structs :)
12:40:15  <TrueBrain> {_station_desc} + NUM_CARGO * { {GetGoodsDesc} + flows * {_flow_desc} + cargo_size * {_cargo_list_desc} }
12:40:16  <TrueBrain> even
12:40:49  <TrueBrain> {_station_desc} + NUM_CARGO * { {GetGoodsDesc} + flows * {_flow_desc} + cargo_size * {_cargo_list_desc} } + num_specs * {_station_speclist_desc}
12:40:51  <TrueBrain> that blob is insane
12:41:00  <frosch123> it is a "map<cargotype, multimap<stationid, CargoPacket*>>"
12:41:27  <TrueBrain> it really should have been more than 1 chunk, tbfh :P
12:41:29  <frosch123> so each station has a dynamic list of pairs of (stationid, cargopacket-ref)
12:42:17  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i had a coworker who liked to talk about the different levels of database normalization :p
12:42:29  <TrueBrain> sounds like you killed him :P
12:42:44  <frosch123>
12:42:58  <TrueBrain> I am aware of normal forms, yes .. I had my database courses too :P
12:43:24  <TrueBrain> omg, Ptrs_STNS also reads from the savegame
12:43:25  <TrueBrain> wtf
12:43:33  <TrueBrain> I think that is the only one doing that ..
12:43:35  <frosch123> there was a time when the CTO wanted to know from each business section, how they use databases (with the intention to figure out whether there could be some joint oracle->psql effort)
12:43:58  <frosch123> some departments replied with a slide of "who they are, and then 3 examples"
12:44:16  <frosch123> my coworker wrote a single sentence: we use ?NF, and a wikipedia link
12:44:24  <frosch123> (i can't remember the ? part)
12:45:29  <TrueBrain> and the CTO applauded? :P
12:45:48  <frosch123> TrueBrain: does it? doesn't Ptrs_STNN just loop over the maps?
12:46:10  <TrueBrain> owh, wait, we have STNN and STNS
12:46:13  <TrueBrain> that is not confusing either
12:46:51  <TrueBrain> <- it is reading something
12:47:10  <TrueBrain> ah, no
12:47:14  <TrueBrain> nevermind, I forgot how Ptrs worked
12:47:32  <TrueBrain> read: I keep surpressing
12:48:17  <frosch123> :)
12:48:24  <TrueBrain> I think a good first step is to create old_station_sl.cpp
12:48:31  <TrueBrain> as this is very confusing to read
12:49:09  <TrueBrain> in better news: station is the only one that is this complex
12:49:15  <TrueBrain> well, linkgraph comes close too
12:49:18  <frosch123> STNN means 'stations new'? :p
12:49:23  <TrueBrain> I would guess so, yes :)
12:50:19  <TrueBrain> we have more read-only chunks, maybe we should put them in their own folder
12:50:24  <TrueBrain> they are basically read-only at this point :)
12:50:54  <TrueBrain> can't believe the complexity of the station code ..
12:51:03  <TrueBrain> but okay, I think allowing a list of structs is the way to go
12:51:38  <TrueBrain> only needs to be done for the header, I think ..
12:54:19  <TrueBrain> and prefixing the lists with a length gamma solves the weird _num_dests and friends
12:54:51  <frosch123> the magic here is that the length of the list is written in another column
12:55:29  <frosch123> GetGoodsDesc write _num_dests and _num_flows
12:55:33  <TrueBrain> yup
12:56:02  <TrueBrain> and if my suggestion works, we can remove those columns basically
12:56:14  <TrueBrain> as a list of structs would be very similar to a list of uint32s
12:57:21  <TrueBrain> although .. current a list of uint32s is only possible with a fixed length
12:57:55  <TrueBrain> owh, wait, no, SaveLoad as SL_ARR, which is fixed
12:57:58  <TrueBrain> and SL_LST, which is dynamic
12:58:46  <frosch123> does it hurt to make all lists dynamic?
12:58:52  <frosch123> (in the savegame)
12:59:02  <TrueBrain> few more bytes on disk
12:59:52  <TrueBrain> for now what I did with SL_ARR, that the header also stores the length for those entries
12:59:59  <frosch123> i mean from a savegame-viewer point-of-view
12:59:59  <TrueBrain> so it is no longer {type, field-name}
13:00:08  <TrueBrain> but {type[, length], field-name}
13:00:12  <frosch123> would they want to know whether a list is homongenously sized in all items?
13:00:31  <TrueBrain> it does give more information, ofc, knowing it is fixes size
13:00:38  <TrueBrain> but .. I can't think of anything significant
13:01:01  <TrueBrain> if anything, it is easier if everything is an SL_LST
13:01:04  <TrueBrain> and SL_ARR dies
13:01:17  <TrueBrain> (an optional length-field is just annoying)
13:02:47  <TrueBrain> we also have a few deque fields
13:03:28  <frosch123> that's the same on disk as a LST, right?
13:03:56  <TrueBrain> I had to look through several layers, but yes :P
13:04:55  <frosch123> good, i would have believed you, if you had said "no" :)
13:05:05  <TrueBrain> so if we make SL_ARR also behave like a LST, the world becomes slightly easier
13:05:39  <TrueBrain> and that means for a list of structs we just need to add something like SLE_FILE_STRUCT
13:05:42  <TrueBrain> and assign it a number
13:06:01  <TrueBrain> and the SaveLoad code can remain mostly the same
13:06:21  <TrueBrain> (so I am not going to embed a C++ struct in a struct, and learn the SaveLoad code how to read that :P)
13:07:20  <TrueBrain> okay, I can see that working
13:07:27  <TrueBrain> that means I have 1 more issue to figure out .. unions
13:09:21  <TrueBrain> and ideally a clean way to avoid SLE_VEH_INCLUDE
13:09:28  <TrueBrain> as that is just ... ugh
13:09:54  <frosch123> make an list of struct with length 0 or 1 :p
13:10:00  <frosch123> kind of std::optional
13:11:33  <TrueBrain> can you in C++ do something like this:
13:12:59  <frosch123> std::variant is the c++ way to do a union
13:13:29  <TrueBrain> my godbolt is not about unions :)
13:13:30  <frosch123> it's a union that knows which item is valid
13:13:54  <frosch123> range concatenations is a c++20 thing
13:14:08  <TrueBrain> currently there is SL_VEH_INCLUDE and SL_ST_INCLUDE
13:14:19  <TrueBrain> which are just dirty hacks to avoid code duplication
13:14:27  <TrueBrain> I was wondering if that could be solved with C++ nicely these days
13:14:28  <LordAro> it's more container concatenation
13:14:42  <LordAro> which is possible, but not particularly neat
13:15:04  <LordAro> probably requires operator overloads, if at all possible
13:15:14  <TrueBrain> nah, that would be too much
13:15:16  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i guess make _waypoint_desc a GetWaypointDesc
13:15:22  <frosch123> and concatenate them in code
13:15:44  <TrueBrain> by throwing it in a std::vector?
13:15:51  <frosch123> yes
13:16:03  <frosch123> "static std::vector" even
13:16:07  <TrueBrain> of
13:16:07  <TrueBrain> c
13:16:19  <TrueBrain> that would work for Vehicles too I guess
13:16:25  <TrueBrain> as the cost of a runtime penalty
13:16:40  <frosch123> a start-up penalty
13:16:46  <TrueBrain> yup
13:16:49  <TrueBrain> well, first-use
13:16:51  <frosch123> you only fill the vector once :)
13:17:14  <TrueBrain> I like that solution; that is a whole lot cleaner
13:17:21  <TrueBrain> okay, so that solves that
13:17:39  <frosch123> anyway, why i came up with the std::optional/std::variant thing
13:17:45  <TrueBrain> list of structs for an union, how realistic is that, I wonder ..
13:18:00  <frosch123> you could merge the vehicles into a single object, and have the train-specific part a s as sub-struct
13:18:50  <frosch123> kind of like a list of structs, but with 0 or 1 list item
13:19:23  <TrueBrain> not sure I follow (at all, honestly :P)
13:19:41  <TrueBrain> how things are in memory is not that important atm; I am more worried how we can store it on disk in a sane way
13:20:29  <TrueBrain> atm it is something like: {type, *{common}, *{type-specific}}
13:20:53  <TrueBrain> your suggestion is to do more like: {[{train}], [{road}], [{ship}], ..}, I think?
13:21:09  <TrueBrain> so "type" is the Nth list that is non-empty
13:22:14  <frosch123>
13:22:41  <TrueBrain> {{common}, [{train}], [{road}], [{ship}], ..}
13:22:42  <TrueBrain> sure :)
13:22:54  <frosch123> no idea how to load it though :p
13:23:07  <TrueBrain> yeah, that is the trick
13:23:13  <TrueBrain> the reason the vehicle-type is at the start
13:23:17  <TrueBrain> is so it can allocate the right type
13:23:50  <frosch123> SLE_WRITEBYTE <- oh, i was confused how it could read it twice...
13:24:00  <frosch123> but it doesn't :p
13:24:08  <TrueBrain> SLE_WRITEBYTE is ... euh ... not what the name suggests
13:24:24  <TrueBrain> it is SLE_SAVE_ONLY
13:24:26  <TrueBrain> or something
13:25:00  <frosch123> yes, the asymmetry between Save_VEHS and Load_VEHS confused me :p
13:25:10  <TrueBrain> can't blame you
13:25:18  <frosch123> it stored/loaded the same GetVehicleDescription, but the load part loaded an additional thing before that :p
13:25:44  <TrueBrain> anyway, we could also just implement STR_FILE_UNION, tbh
13:25:56  <TrueBrain> just more technical debt :P
13:26:09  <TrueBrain> I like keeping shit simple
13:30:37  <TrueBrain> wait, okay, we can do one better, which might just work
13:30:44  <TrueBrain> for a list of structs I need to add STR_FILE_STRUCT anyway
13:30:51  <TrueBrain> but the "list" part is optional
13:31:04  <TrueBrain> so we can just do {type, common, train-struct, rv-struct, ..}
13:31:15  <TrueBrain> but .. they can't be empty
13:31:16  <TrueBrain> lol
13:31:18  <TrueBrain> I am going in circles
13:31:19  <TrueBrain> fml :P
13:31:46  <TrueBrain> so what-ever, we just do {type, common, [{train-strcut}], ..}
13:32:00  <TrueBrain> means minimal changes to current save/load code
13:32:06  <TrueBrain> and an external tool can figure that out too
13:32:49  <TrueBrain> the only "change" is that we write a few 0s extra to disk for each vehicle
13:32:53  <TrueBrain> 5 to be exact
13:33:28  <TrueBrain> owh, and 1 1
13:33:30  <TrueBrain> so 6 bytes per vehicle
13:33:32  <TrueBrain> I think we survive
13:34:27  <TrueBrain> tnx frosch123 ; will fiddle a bit with it, and we will take it from there again :)
13:43:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9322: Add: store table header for each chunk in savegame
13:43:38  <TrueBrain> right, "ai" supported too .. now we can easily see what AI is loaded
13:55:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on discussion #9150: RFC: Have OpenTTD *not* lock the cursor position when dragging viewports by default
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14:02:00  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on discussion #9150: RFC: Have OpenTTD *not* lock the cursor position when dragging viewports by default
14:13:48  <andythenorth> I once got yelled at by my CTO of the time about normalisation
14:13:52  <andythenorth> and how I had broken it all
14:14:06  <andythenorth> we needed different data to show the actual customers
14:14:20  <andythenorth> so I wrote some queries to fetch data across multiple tables
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14:19:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
14:19:57  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
14:21:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 updated pull request #220: Fix #209: Cargo 'profit' callback applied a unit conversion, when there was no unit.
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14:50:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] PeterN commented on pull request #220: Fix #209: Cargo 'profit' callback applied a unit conversion, when there was no unit.
14:53:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure'
14:54:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure'
14:54:35  * andythenorth could just look up INVALID_DATE in src
14:56:36  <andythenorth> hmm -1
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15:12:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on discussion #9150: RFC: Have OpenTTD *not* lock the cursor position when dragging viewports by default
15:26:39  <andythenorth> such dragging discussion
15:26:51  <andythenorth> I should plug a mouse in and see what it does
15:28:41  <peter1138> I've used it like that since... well, since I implemented the setting that way.
15:30:11  <andythenorth> do you have to pick up the mouse and move it?
15:35:04  <andythenorth> so rename wood to logs?
15:35:16  <andythenorth> hmm maybe a discord chat
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16:17:11  <andythenorth> oh what now, I made a merge commit on 9093?
16:17:16  <andythenorth> I thought I'd stopped that bad habit
16:17:24  <andythenorth> it emailed me to say all checks failed :|
16:17:28  <andythenorth>
16:18:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure'
16:33:19  *** jottyfan has quit IRC
16:35:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on discussion #9150: RFC: Have OpenTTD *not* lock the cursor position when dragging viewports by default
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16:49:09  <andythenorth> hurrah, fixed my own mess :D
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18:34:03  <peter1138> hurr
18:42:07  <LordAro> peter1138: well done
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18:45:29  <peter1138> lol, not much of a ride compared to what you've been up to.
18:46:06  <LordAro> :>
18:46:14  <LordAro> any cycling is good cycling
18:46:24  <LordAro> but yes
18:46:29  <LordAro> guess what i get to do tomorrow
18:52:53  <peter1138> :D
19:02:50  <andythenorth> anyone else getting random DMs?
19:13:41  <frosch123> on IRC? no
19:21:08  *** Progman has joined #openttd
19:27:08  <andythenorth> frosch123 you mentioned a few times - I'm curious now, how does a desert town grow if it has no water tower
19:27:48  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
19:27:52  * andythenorth hasn't played base game for years
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19:32:19  <frosch123> if it is a tiny town of like 3 houses, it grows until it reaches some minimum population  anyway. that's probably to ensure that the town accepts passengers
19:32:34  <frosch123> but ultimatively it's the player's job to fund a water tower
19:32:42  <frosch123> just like the player has to fund lumbermills
19:35:39  <andythenorth> how does the player figure out it out?
19:35:43  <andythenorth> I guess the town window
19:36:53  * andythenorth planning a test of FIRS controlling town population growth, via building type selection
19:36:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
19:36:55  <frosch123> it's an old game. players were smarter in the 90s :p
19:36:56  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:37:19  <frosch123> or maybe there was a printed manual
19:37:21  <andythenorth> if I could place a 'town hall' industry or something in every town, that could explain how growth works via industry window
19:37:26  <andythenorth> printed manual there was :D
19:38:05  <andythenorth> I considered a GS, but Eddi has explained to me twice now how syncing user-installed dependencies is an impossible problem in computer science
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19:51:07  <frosch123> andythenorth: reverse the thing. call the industry "industrial era", limit it to one per town, and limit all other industries to towns with "industrial era" achievement
19:51:41  <frosch123> then the player can start a development program to bring more towns into the industrial age
19:52:43  <frosch123> tribal towns just don't get any industries
19:53:00  <frosch123> rename passengers to slaves, and you are done
19:54:03  <andythenorth> I consider adopting part of your idea :P
19:54:13  <andythenorth> I believe slave things are now deprecated in polite company
19:54:39  <frosch123> fine, call them commuters :p
19:58:35  <andythenorth> 'satisfy industries to get more industries'
19:59:18  <andythenorth> even player cannot build if town is not industrial?
20:00:56  <frosch123> player cannot fund industries, you can show a custom error message "must fund industrialisation first"
20:01:12  <frosch123> transporting stuff is fine ofc :p
20:01:47  <frosch123> you cannot block building iron dragons through native terrritory
20:02:14  <frosch123> unless you want to increase the breakdown rate there :p
20:02:50  <andythenorth> hmm
20:02:56  <andythenorth> I am tempted to try it
20:03:12  <andythenorth> it doesn't help that I am trying to give a purpose to the final / tertiary / town cargos :)
20:03:31  <frosch123> yeti already exists
20:03:34  <andythenorth> in this idea, nothing could be built until the town is satisfied
20:03:50  <andythenorth> but currently town satisfying cargos can't be done until everything is built
20:03:56  * andythenorth considers revolution
20:04:06  <frosch123> ah, so you want a tech tree :p
20:04:19  <frosch123> you first have to develop the coal industry, until steelplants are invented
20:04:31  <frosch123> stone age, bronce age, iron age, steel age
20:04:34  <andythenorth> everything relies on player funding, yes?
20:04:46  <andythenorth> (because OpenTTD can't reliably build new chains)
20:05:00  <andythenorth> cheap industry costs, high satisfaction requirements
20:05:14  <andythenorth> it might be a thing
20:07:48  <andythenorth> tech tree FIRS
20:09:34  <frosch123> call it SCND
20:14:25  <andythenorth> can I just do the Warcraft 1 village buildings?
20:14:33  <andythenorth> lumber mill, blacksmith, stable
20:15:42  <andythenorth> supply chain
20:15:44  <andythenorth> hmm
20:16:29  <andythenorth> we are a bit short on window space to explain things like
20:16:51  <andythenorth> "to build this industry, your town needs to be producing at least 300t of steel every month"
20:16:56  <andythenorth> story book? o_O
20:17:59  <frosch123> if it is fun to play, people will play it anyway, and figure it out
20:18:13  <andythenorth> so many ideas for adding variety to FIRS
20:18:18  <andythenorth> they're not all compatible
20:18:21  <frosch123> let new players play XIS, less bug reports for you?
20:18:29  <andythenorth> I already recommend that :)
20:18:43  <frosch123> just fork firs, it's pretty common
20:18:49  <andythenorth> fashionable
20:20:01  <andythenorth> there was an idea about towns having a parent
20:20:07  <andythenorth> which would give a regional capital
20:20:23  <andythenorth> regional capitals could have a parent, which would be map capital
20:21:07  <andythenorth> I tried to figure out how a town would be assigned a parent, but my ideas weren't good
20:21:21  <frosch123> sounds like adding the option to store setting values as hex in openttd.cfg
20:21:31  <andythenorth> bad?
20:21:54  <frosch123> abstract stuff that noone will use
20:22:01  <andythenorth> I would use it
20:22:09  <andythenorth> mostly to do energy grid
20:22:23  <andythenorth> and maybe some ideas that I shouldn't also
20:22:41  <andythenorth> probably needs something fancy, like a voroni partition?
20:22:48  <andythenorth> always fancy things
20:23:11  <LordAro> voxels?
20:23:18  <andythenorth> not sure they help with this :)
20:23:23  <andythenorth> also we have voxels already
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20:32:09  <andythenorth> hmm some BAD ideas
20:32:25  <andythenorth> FIRS scrap yard production currently depends on town population
20:32:37  <andythenorth> but I could make it also depend on cargos being delivered to the town
20:33:10  <andythenorth> communicating via town register
20:33:24  <andythenorth> or I could just shortcut all that, and do an industry visually split in tow
20:33:27  <andythenorth> two *
20:33:37  <andythenorth> one side scrap yard, one side vehicle dealer
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20:33:56  <andythenorth> or one side scrap yard, one side retail park shops
20:34:12  <andythenorth> extra frosch123
20:34:50  <andythenorth> segmented industries: industrial park
20:35:17  <frosch12> did you play yeti?
20:35:25  <andythenorth> accepts: [whatever town cargos] produces: [scrap metal | waste | recyclables]
20:35:28  <andythenorth> no
20:35:37  <frosch12> it has multiple game modes, all about how to involve towns into the industry chains
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20:35:41  <andythenorth> I have looked at it, and been on servers that have it
20:36:00  <andythenorth> I mostly spent time looking at the slug
20:36:05  <andythenorth> it's quite compelling
20:36:23  <frosch12> is there an andy inside firs?
20:36:28  <andythenorth> unlikely
20:36:35  <andythenorth> although I have been turned into a gif on discord
20:36:39  <andythenorth> never livestream
20:37:12  <andythenorth> I could just do a house set and let FIRS control town growth
20:37:24  <andythenorth> but I have enough projects, and houses are of limited interest
20:38:26  <frosch12> what does the gif show?
20:38:36  <frosch12> gif have no audio, so no "disagree" in there
20:41:00  <andythenorth> it's my face
20:41:03  <andythenorth> animated
20:41:27  <frosch12> drinking beer?
20:41:44  <andythenorth> can't remember :)
20:41:54  <andythenorth> I'm trying to avoid it
20:42:54  <andythenorth> hmm, having FIRS control town growth gets quite limiting in economy design
20:43:13  <andythenorth> means I'd always have to include building materials and stuff, and make them available quite early in the chain
20:44:25  <frosch12> clay houses :)
20:45:03  <andythenorth> it would conflate with the desert / above snowline behaviour also
20:45:56  <andythenorth> Tyler has a house set, the idea was something like 'FIRS tells a town register that the town is satisfied for a value in a range something like 0-3
20:46:32  <andythenorth> then when new buildings are built by the town, the house grf reads the register and chooses a fancy building, or a less fancy building
20:48:46  <andythenorth> the default desert / snowline town behaviour is a bit weird
20:48:54  <andythenorth> I still don't know what FIRS should be doing about it :)
20:49:07  <andythenorth> I currently just make sure food exists and hope for the best
20:50:47  <andythenorth> hmm if TE_WATER cargo does not exist, it seems tropic drops the requirement?
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20:51:29  <TrueBrain> frosch12: that info@ email is weird .. it is very nice someone asks permission etc, but he then signs with his nickname .. which completely invalidates the request .. I am a bit puzzled :)
20:51:56  <TrueBrain> can't figure out if it is real or not :P
20:53:10  <frosch12> i visited their yt channel
20:53:43  <frosch12> they do not comment their games, so i cannot figure out their age
20:53:53  <frosch12> but several videos require login to confirm age :p
20:54:07  <frosch12> probably anime trash
20:54:08  <TrueBrain> I just don't get it .. if you understand stuff enough to ask permission and not just do it .. why don't sign the mail with your full name?
20:54:37  <TrueBrain> like: can I get permission to publish your book, but I am not telling who I am, so you are saying yes to "someone"
20:55:15  <frosch12> i don't think its unusual people want to stay anonymous
20:55:24  <frosch12> i also send all my mails as frosch
20:55:41  <TrueBrain> wanting to be anonymous is fine .. except when you talk legal :)
20:55:47  <TrueBrain> that is just .. 2 worlds .. colliding
20:56:02  <frosch12> pff. i don't think they wrote that
20:56:12  <frosch12> i think it's some template, people copy&paste it
20:56:13  <TrueBrain> I am just a bit confused with the meaning of this email :P
20:56:21  <TrueBrain> tried googling it, couldn't find it :D
20:56:35  <TrueBrain> its funny how difficult it has become to judge if something is spam or not
20:56:44  <frosch12> they have 10 subscribers, they are not part of any monetization program or channel network :p
20:56:53  <TrueBrain> at least it is something else then the "free translator service"
20:58:13  <frosch12> so, well, we get these mails every few years
20:58:18  <TrueBrain> but I do take back a comment I made weeks ago .. as I now do agree with you: since we launched on Steam, the mails have gotten weirder :P
20:58:23  <frosch12> commerical games usually have some rules on their website
20:58:41  <andythenorth> hrm, I don't want to touch houses at all :P
20:58:46  * andythenorth dodges that bullet
20:58:49  <frosch12> TrueBrain: look in the drafts folder
20:59:02  <andythenorth> even though they are broken for cargo acceptance by FIRS in some economies
20:59:05  <frosch12> pm saved a template for this "can i stream on youtube" question
20:59:14  <TrueBrain> frosch12: there is 1 mail in the draft folder :P
20:59:33  <frosch12> err, templates folder
20:59:42  <frosch12> but looks like it's broken now
21:00:05  <TrueBrain> frosch12: some weird PGP mail that won't open :P
21:00:10  <TrueBrain> but I believe you .. never seen this request before :)
21:00:16  <TrueBrain> it just confused me :P
21:00:46  <frosch12> you can also search inbox
21:00:56  <frosch12> there is a 7 mail long conversation from 2015 with someone
21:01:18  <TrueBrain> its funny, as this balances on the debate what is fair use :)
21:01:24  <TrueBrain> still nobody really knows the answer :P
21:01:47  <frosch12> the essence is usually: you can play openttd, but we do not own any of the basesets, add-ons, sounds, whatever
21:02:50  <nielsm> <TrueBrain> frosch12: that info@ email is weird .. it is very nice someone asks permission etc, but he then signs with his nickname .. which completely invalidates the request .. I am a bit puzzled :)   <--- I haven't seen the email in question, but I think it'd make sense to write a page describing general permissions and exceptions for streaming/let's play content and related monetization
21:03:04  <TrueBrain> nielsm: I call it the GPLv2 license :D
21:03:23  <nielsm> (GPL allows you to use the work for any purpose including commercial purposes yes, but if you use any add-ons you need to check the licenses of those individually)
21:03:38  <nielsm> (just write a page stating that)
21:03:41  <TrueBrain> but go for it, I would say ;)
21:04:36  <frosch12> i would not be able to write such page, without ridiculing the topic :p
21:04:53  <TrueBrain> well, nielsm volunteered, didn't they?
21:04:54  <frosch12> "make sure to not play any scenario with the 'no derivatives allowed' license"
21:05:11  <TrueBrain> (look at that frosch12 , I did it correctly! :P)
21:05:21  <nielsm>  <-- add to this page?
21:05:22  <frosch12> yes, i noticed :p
21:05:58  <TrueBrain> I am really curious what a court says if YouTube is within fair use
21:06:01  <TrueBrain> and how far that can be pushed
21:06:12  <TrueBrain> is making 1M dollar a month fair use, for example :P
21:08:09  <frosch12> germany recently passed the upload filter law. it specifies limits for what is allowed in terms of "seconds audio", "seconds video", "kilobyte image", "characters text", with exceptions like "no key scenes" (like the 3 seconds of scoring a goal in a football game)
21:08:59  <TrueBrain> really? funny :)
21:09:18  <TrueBrain> are the limits within reason?
21:10:46  <TrueBrain> 125KB of graphics
21:10:49  <TrueBrain> well .. that is a weird number
21:10:55  <TrueBrain> before or after compression? :P
21:12:04  <frosch12> ok, it says: 15 seconds video or audio, 160 characters and 125 kB image are free for non-commercial use
21:12:17  <frosch12> as long as they are less than half of the whole thing
21:12:19  <TrueBrain> the image is an odd duck
21:12:33  <frosch12> yeah, more black&white pictures :)
21:12:41  <TrueBrain> so you can show 50% of a tweet, basically :P
21:12:46  <frosch12> more compression :)
21:13:05  <TrueBrain> so if I project this on a game
21:13:10  <TrueBrain> it means you can do 50% of a game
21:13:31  <TrueBrain> as long as you flag it as "exception" :P
21:13:48  <TrueBrain> my problems with these kind of laws is always that is very vague what they try to prevent
21:14:27  <frosch12> this one is about "you can share trivial things, you need permission for anything else"
21:14:30  <TrueBrain> but by the looks, they didn't really consider games with this law :)
21:14:40  <frosch12> so baby dancing to background music for 15 seconds is allowed now
21:14:51  <TrueBrain> well, if it is less than 50% of the original work
21:14:56  <TrueBrain> so depends on how old the baby gets? :P
21:15:03  <frosch12> most songs are longer than 30 seconds :p
21:15:11  <TrueBrain> I was talking about the baby! :D
21:15:35  <TrueBrain> does this also count for reposting? I would guess so
21:15:54  <TrueBrain> so a repost is only 7 seconds of a baby dancing
21:16:04  <TrueBrain> in combination with other content, ofc
21:16:24  <TrueBrain> and to be clear, I am just trying to get a bit of feeling what they did, not trying to ridicule it
21:16:53  <TrueBrain> so you can still do those youtube uploads which are montage of TikToks
21:17:32  <TrueBrain> well, at least it becomes a bit more clear what is allowed and what is not :)
21:17:39  <TrueBrain> the complete free-for-all atm is a bit weird
21:18:14  <TrueBrain> I mean, I played many games by just watching someone else do it, without every buying it myself (or really playing it) .. it is a bit weird .. as I doubt the person playing it paid any of his revenue to the game creator
21:19:09  <andythenorth> weird world is weird
21:20:24  <frosch12> TrueBrain:  streaming games is so popular, that companies usually say what is allowed
21:20:46  <TrueBrain> did not know that; also not a streamer, that might be related :)
21:20:46  <frosch12> it's usually along "you can stream the game, but disable the music, we only licensed it for the game"
21:21:04  <frosch12> and "japanese companies do not allow anything"
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21:21:22  <TrueBrain> just for my curiosity, happen to have an example?
21:21:27  <frosch12> for story based streams it's usually "you are not allowe do show these main story elements"
21:22:27  <frosch12> oh, and most important "your stream content must have the same age rating as the game"
21:23:28  <frosch12> TrueBrain:
21:24:03  <TrueBrain> tnx
21:24:04  <TrueBrain> TIL :)
21:24:17  <andythenorth> will it be really limiting if every town won't grow unless a power station in the town zone is supplied with cargo?
21:24:40  * andythenorth trying to figure out how to extend the range beyond 'this town'
21:24:51  <TrueBrain> 'You should include your own creative input and commentary' <- I like that
21:26:30  <TrueBrain> that page is really nicely worded, damn
21:26:32  <TrueBrain> I like that
21:30:20  <frosch12> <- another one
21:31:14  <frosch12> looks like both forbit putting your gameplay behind a paywall :)
21:31:58  <frosch12> lol, that page is really old
21:32:13  <frosch12> half of the streaming services listed are defunct or renamed by now
21:32:18  <TrueBrain> I like the paradox more, as it also includes monetization :)
21:32:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] nielsmh opened pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
21:33:04  <frosch12> TrueBrain: oddly enough it misses the "your content must have the same age rating as our game" rule
21:33:11  <TrueBrain> yeah
21:33:14  <TrueBrain> well, can't have them all :)
21:35:11  <frosch12> also, i only watch games i wouldn't play myself :)
21:35:19  <TrueBrain> same :)
21:35:33  <frosch12> this game is interesting but requires too much micromanagement -> i rather watch someone else dealing with the annoyance
21:35:45  <frosch12> someone is playing factorio -> such a noob, i can do that better
21:36:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
21:36:37  <TrueBrain> I like watching horror-games .. cannot play them myself :P
21:36:49  <TrueBrain> or very slow games .. like Shipbreakers
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21:37:02  <TrueBrain> I get really bored playing it, but watching someone else doing it on the background is very nice :)
21:37:30  <frosch12> some years ago i also noticed some behavior change for some streamers of story based games. when games had multiple story paths, they used to play all of them. at some point they changed to only play one, and then tell people to play themself if they want to learn more
21:37:39  <frosch12> which sounds like a fair rule
21:37:46  <frosch12> but no idea whether someone enforced it :p
21:38:09  <TrueBrain> I am always surprised they finish the game :P
21:38:22  <TrueBrain> as streamer, I would be very tempted to skip the last part and say: now go do it yourself
21:38:24  <TrueBrain> but I am evil
21:38:34  <frosch12> pff, if you are a full-time streamer, you have to fill the void with something
21:38:54  <frosch12> not everyone sells their bathing water
21:41:20  <TrueBrain> nielsm: reads like a fine text to me; we might get questions over time about it, but we can deal with that when they arrive
21:41:59  <TrueBrain> I wonder .. does a Let's play need to link to the original source too, under GPLv2? :D
21:42:58  <frosch12> they do not modify it, they only have to link where they got it from
21:43:08  <TrueBrain> that is what I mean, yes
21:43:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] nielsmh updated pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
21:43:15  <TrueBrain> maybe also something to add, just to make sure they know that?
21:43:17  <frosch12> anyway, i think the "privacy policy" page is the wrong page for this
21:43:18  <nielsm> added two things, I think are good to have
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21:43:52  <TrueBrain> rebrand the page "legal"?
21:43:57  <nielsm> nah if it was Affero GPL then you might need to offer the software when you showcase it
21:44:10  <frosch12> nielsm: what was the license of opensfx again?
21:44:17  <nielsm> GPL only applies restrictions/demands on distribution of the software
21:44:30  <frosch12> it was some mixture of licenses, but not gpl
21:46:09  <nielsm> haha wow
21:47:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
21:50:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
21:52:36  <TrueBrain> ugh, forgot we have other pages like also point to the "Privacy Policy" on
21:53:24  <TrueBrain> so a second page is easiest :D
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21:54:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] nielsmh updated pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
21:56:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] nielsmh commented on pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
21:58:13  <frosch12> pretty sure bananas also links to it somewhere
21:58:19  <Timberwolf> I probably missed the main conversation, but the only reason Timberwolf's Stations exists is because the only passenger station set I liked was mb's, but I couldn't see how streaming was compatible with his licence.
21:58:20  <TrueBrain> most pages do
21:58:43  <frosch12> ah yes, we copied the footer everywhere :p
21:58:58  <TrueBrain> I also wanted the Privacy Policy everywhere. I think that is important :)
22:00:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
22:00:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] nielsmh updated pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
22:01:23  <frosch12> nielsm: <- please also add a link there :)
22:01:43  <frosch12> i don't think it needs to be in the footer
22:01:49  <TrueBrain> nielsm: you would make me really happy if you name the page "content_creators.html" (adding the _) .. but I won't not approve it if you don't :)
22:02:36  <TrueBrain> or a "-"
22:02:41  <TrueBrain> what ever works most for you :)
22:03:24  <frosch12> the other pages have _
22:03:35  <TrueBrain> but none have it in their URL
22:03:42  <TrueBrain> I always think - in URLs is nicer :P
22:03:45  <TrueBrain> but .. tomato tomato, really
22:04:29  <TrueBrain> (sorry, I was looking at the permalink; yes, the file itself too :P)
22:05:46  <TrueBrain> but okay, bikeshedding ++ .. I think this is awesome nielsm , tnx :)
22:06:23  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: that is a pretty whacky reason to make a NewGRF, but also pretty cool :)
22:08:27  <Timberwolf> I am respectful of licences. Not so much 1980s television cartoons.
22:09:06  <nielsm> I can't find a good place to put on the contact page
22:09:42  <TrueBrain> nielsm: just make a similar green box below "Questions and player support"
22:09:54  <TrueBrain> (before "Bugs and other issues")
22:10:20  <TrueBrain> it should be before "Abuse", and after "Questions"
22:10:38  <TrueBrain> and not between "Bugs" and "Feature Requests"
22:10:42  <TrueBrain> so imo, either above Bugs or below Feature requests
22:11:45  <TrueBrain> "Planning to use OpenTTD on your stream or want to upload your Let's Play to a video platform? Content Creator Guidelines: <link>"
22:11:48  <TrueBrain> or something, as text in the white box
22:12:02  <Timberwolf> I should get back to making boats.
22:12:21  <TrueBrain> those super-realistic pirate boats? :D
22:12:33  <Timberwolf> My stepdad suggested I look at all the things Everards have, for a cross-section of random coastal shipping vessels.
22:12:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] nielsmh updated pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
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22:13:14  <Timberwolf> Mum and stepdad also gave me two boxes worth of 45rpm singles in desperate need of cleaning, which has not helped with newgrf productivity.
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22:14:06  <Timberwolf> Digitising a somewhat worn copy of Guy Mitchell's 'Heartaches By The Number' is clearly more important for current and future civilisations.
22:14:28  <TrueBrain> I am fine with #213; frosch12 , you too?
22:14:46  <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: lol
22:16:09  <Timberwolf> My dad had a lot more Shadows records than he let on. (But sadly not 'Wonderful Land', imo the best of their early '60s singles)
22:16:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] frosch123 approved pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
22:16:57  <Timberwolf> In surprisingly good condition, given how many times he'd have repeatedly played the same sections trying to work out how to play them on guitar.
22:17:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators
22:17:48  <TrueBrain> and now we wait on staging ... :D
22:18:10  <frosch12> and then flame the email sender, why they didn't check the website?
22:18:21  <TrueBrain> I leave that to you :D
22:20:06  <TrueBrain> +up
22:20:11  <TrueBrain> but who is counting this late in a day
22:23:48  <TrueBrain>
22:24:07  <TrueBrain> stylistic it could use some finetuning, to make it easier to read .. but .. that is for another day :)
22:25:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.4.29
22:27:08  <frosch12> i am sure the layout will be improved just after the bananas upload form :)
22:27:19  <TrueBrain> give or take a year
22:27:28  <TrueBrain> (after the upload form)
22:34:14  <TrueBrain> and pushed it on Discord as Announcement
22:35:44  <TrueBrain> as I figured, if there are people who were not sure, they can be found there :P
22:43:42  <andythenorth> hmm FIRS really lacks 'launch the rocket' eh
22:43:46  <andythenorth> such fail
22:44:24  <frosch12> there isn't even industry whack
22:45:16  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Build your first vehicle.
22:45:24  <Timberwolf> Launch the Cortina.
22:45:27  <andythenorth> lol
22:45:53  <andythenorth> FIRS Steeltown is quite good with Silicon Valley and vehicles
22:46:11  <andythenorth> if you are prepared to regenerate the map a LOT of times to get a viable map AND vehicles :)
22:50:20  <Timberwolf> I do like the way I provide era-appropriate vehicle sprites all the way back to the 1800s, and I've never yet managed to complete the vehicle chain before they've become Cortinas.
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22:58:01  <andythenorth> ha
22:58:19  <andythenorth> if I do vehicles import in the West Country economy...
22:58:27  <TrueBrain> clang: error: unable to execute command: Segmentation fault
22:58:29  <TrueBrain> I DID IT!
22:58:30  <TrueBrain> sorry :)
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23:04:43  <andythenorth> oof bedtime
23:04:45  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
23:05:06  <Timberwolf> The last time I imported a vehicle to the West Country it overheated horrible in Bristol city centre traffic.
23:06:36  <Timberwolf> Actually no, I have successfully driven two different Volvos to Cornwall without any significant mechanical failures occurring.
23:07:56  <Timberwolf> Wait. Dorset is considered the West Country?
23:09:41  <Timberwolf> I feel that definition needs to be updated to consider the density of London emigrées. It's getting close to an exclave in the coastal areas.
23:32:09  <glx> TrueBrain: when using clang in msvc I often trigger out of memory error
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