Log for #openttd on 25th June 2021:
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01:59:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TriggeredSnake opened issue #9399: Track 00 of the "All" programme in the jazz jukebox doesn't play
02:07:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9399: Track 00 of the "All" programme in the jazz jukebox doesn't play
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07:35:17  <andythenorth> errr
07:35:21  <andythenorth> hmm
07:35:59  <andythenorth> the 'only one town on the map' case could be solved by permitting all industries to locate in town 1, explicit ID check
07:36:12  <andythenorth> it would have unwanted side effects on maps with more towns eh
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08:13:48  <peter1138> if (num_towns < 3) { special case }
08:29:06  <andythenorth> yeah but that var isn't ;)
08:29:10  <andythenorth> and can't be or something
08:30:54  <andythenorth> but then again industries couldn't be more than 16 cargo in or out
08:31:51  <peter1138> Cool, WD My Book NASes doing factory resets, wiping the all the data, "by themselves"
08:38:38  <LordAro> how nice of them
08:50:41  <LordAro>
08:52:08  <LordAro> "We have determined that some My Book Live devices have been compromised by a threat actor. In some cases, this compromise has led to a factory reset that appears to erase all data on the device. The My Book Live device received its final firmware update in 2015."
08:52:11  <LordAro> oh dear oh dear
08:54:10  <peter1138> CVE was opened in 2019, but it was EOL, so...
08:56:30  <LordAro> which CVE?
08:58:18  <andythenorth> anybody dare?
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12:20:35  <orudge> Hmm, apparently my PC doesn't meet the minimum requirements for Windows 11
12:20:41  <orudge> The CPU does not appear to be on the supported list :|
12:20:59  <TrueBrain> I love how the initial reply from WD is in the lines of: "this is not our fault! Hackers did this!" :P
12:21:13  <orudge> though it doesn't actually say what component isn't supported, which is helpful
12:21:43  <TrueBrain> orudge: lol .. sounds about right :D
12:22:54  <TrueBrain> orudge: the TPM2.0 seems to be a showstopper for a lot of people too
12:25:08  <orudge> Yes, it could be I have that disabled (or just not supported), I have no idea to be honest :p
12:25:33  <TrueBrain> I also wouldn't have a clue if I have that or not :D
12:32:48  <peter1138> I found an option to enable Firmware TPM in UEFI, with that it's supported.
12:33:05  <peter1138> One of those options that defaults to disabled, and is pretty well hidden.
12:35:43  <LordAro> not for long!
12:36:10  <peter1138> I don't really know what it allows, or who it is protecting...
12:40:04  <LordAro> hardware level encryption, basically
12:40:19  <LordAro> means that you can't just take the disk out and read it somewhere else
12:40:42  <orudge> Amazon is now of course sold out of Asus TPM chips!
12:40:45  <peter1138> Yea, except none of my disks are encrypted.
12:41:05  <LordAro> mm, not clear why MS have decided to make this a requirement
12:41:28  <LordAro> we encrypt everything at work, but i've never bothered at home
12:42:19  <LordAro> (not least because the Dell TPM chips have a tendency to go walkabout and you need to completely unplug the computer to get it back
12:42:22  <LordAro> )
12:44:58  * andythenorth wonders how to make industry generation slow
12:45:06  <andythenorth> or rather, what makes it so slow, so I can avoid it
12:45:09  <peter1138> Nice.
12:45:42  <peter1138> I remember with PCI-DSS it was simpler to just not encrypt drives, becuase the key management process required was just not supported by, e.g. LUKS.
12:46:27  <orudge> Well there we go, TPM enabled, shows up in Windows, but apparently my PC still doesn't meet the system requirements
12:46:30  <orudge> Meh
12:46:47  <LordAro> peter1138: oh dear
12:47:00  <peter1138> Was that Amazon's 5 minute delivery, or you found the UEFI setting? :D
12:47:12  <LordAro> our process for encrypting linux computers is a right pain
12:47:33  <LordAro> doesn't do TPM, and remotely decrypting something is tricky
12:47:47  <peter1138> Key rotation, shared knowledge (no single-user, etc) was not really possible.
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12:48:21  <LordAro> dropbear in initramfs works, but is very finicky with DNS and DHCP renewals and all that
12:48:51  <orudge> Turns out it is integrated in my motherboard after all
12:49:16  <peter1138> My PC is compatible.
12:49:30  <peter1138> Turns out Windows 10 has a memory protection feature that I can't enable because of drivers...
12:52:51  <peter1138> Isolated browsing in Edge. Who uses Edge?
12:53:37  <LordAro> edge is nice now that it's actually chrome
12:53:46  <LordAro> better than chrome, in several ways
12:53:51  <andythenorth> nice to know I'm not the only one with linux encryption struggle bus
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12:54:21  <andythenorth> encryption works fine, prod ops for it are ugh
12:54:31  <TrueBrain> on a virtualization cluster, just use SAN encryption instead of trying to do it on OS level :P
12:54:33  <TrueBrain> so much easier :D
12:54:43  <glx> I think my PC won't be compatible
12:54:57  <glx> no UEFI, no DX12 card
12:55:36  <peter1138> I appear to have acquired USB devices that all have original USB B-type connectors. Run out of cables (and ports)
12:55:48  <glx> unpopulated TPM header on motherboard
12:56:05  <peter1138> OpenTTD developer funds ;-)
12:58:00  <glx> wow it was fast, clicked on check button, immediate response you can't
12:58:24  <peter1138> Yes, it's pretty instant either way.
12:59:36  <LordAro> no UEFI? how old is it? :p
12:59:43  <glx> oh funny on french page requirements are simpler, no UEFI nor TPM listed
12:59:49  <LordAro> lol
13:00:49  <andythenorth> TrueBrain that assumes a SAN :P
13:00:58  <andythenorth> the prod ops to get to a SAN are....ugh
13:01:05  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: a virtualization cluster without a SAN is not ... really a cluster of any kind
13:01:16  <TrueBrain> the word "cluster" kinda demands a SAN :)
13:01:32  <glx> it's just 9 years old
13:01:45  <LordAro> we just have a lot of very powerful desktops, no fancy virtualisation cluster here
13:01:58  <andythenorth>
13:02:22  <LordAro> they trip the breakers when there's a powercut and force us to unplug most of the office before it'll stay on again
13:02:28  <andythenorth> TrueBrain that assumes a virtualisation cluster
13:02:46  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that is what my sentence said yes, very well read, well done sir
13:02:48  <TrueBrain> :P
13:03:00  <andythenorth> I refer you to the Irish joke
13:03:39  <TrueBrain> "on a bike, you drive on 2 wheels" - "that assumes you use a bike"
13:03:47  <TrueBrain> NO SHIT! Sometimes I am shocked by the level of intelligence :P
13:03:49  <TrueBrain> <3 :)
13:04:02  <peter1138> We have a SAN but it's massive, power-hungry, and the storage is something like 18TB over 48 drives. And the fibre switches are... meh.
13:04:28  <andythenorth> "the way to solve your problem is to already have solved your problem"
13:05:22  * andythenorth now using patched nml in patched openttd, with patched grfs
13:05:26  <TrueBrain> yes, sorry andythenorth , we should all been solving your issue :P
13:05:28  <TrueBrain> I forgot about that :D
13:05:30  <TrueBrain> silly bean :)
13:05:31  <andythenorth> thanks
13:05:34  <peter1138> Oh, not even that much space.
13:06:23  <andythenorth> goes it new PP?
13:06:29  <andythenorth> what shall I call it?
13:06:34  <andythenorth> most likely it will be BrokenPP
13:06:37  <andythenorth> or DesyncPP
13:06:39  <peter1138> Also the SAN requires Java 6 to manage it.
13:06:40  <andythenorth> or NoSupportPP
13:06:43  <TrueBrain> I once had a customer that refused to enable disk-encryption on their SAN as it increased the CPU usage on that SAN
13:06:46  <TrueBrain> like .. what else is that CPU doing?
13:07:01  <TrueBrain> but no, the CPU should stay below 10%
13:07:06  <TrueBrain> because of "reasons"
13:07:10  <TrueBrain> people are funny sometimes
13:07:22  <andythenorth> would limit the coin miner though
13:07:32  <peter1138> probably affects IO latency
13:07:40  <TrueBrain> peter1138: 100% it does, yes
13:07:53  <TrueBrain> nothing probable about that :P
13:08:05  <andythenorth> I have a new Jesus Phone
13:08:11  <andythenorth> it has no obvious on button
13:08:20  <andythenorth> you sort of lift it up to your face and it turns on
13:08:23  <andythenorth> except it isn't
13:08:30  <andythenorth> oh now it did
13:08:32  <andythenorth> GG Apple
13:09:00  <andythenorth> it is a Mini
13:09:14  <andythenorth> which apparently nobody else will dare buy in case they got mocked for Small Hands meme
13:09:23  <andythenorth> by mean tech bloggers and people on reddit
13:10:37  * andythenorth must to chores
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13:11:25  <TrueBrain> lol, the PC Health thingy claims my PC can't run Win11 either .. pretty sure that is a lie :D
13:11:51  <TrueBrain> but yeah, TPM is most likely not enabled :P
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13:16:46  <TrueBrain> yeah, enabling it makes it go all green on me
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13:43:10  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: do you happen to see a way to prevent us bumping MacOS to at least 10.14 with ? Or is it in your opinion fine to do so? (sorry, you are our in-house MacOS expert :P)
13:43:39  <TrueBrain> 10.13 was EOL last November, so from our "we support what-ever the OS vendor is supporting" argument we are fine .. but Steam supports 10.11+ .. which made me prompt this question :D
13:55:58  <glx> I don't know if the minimum version is to build or to run, as the issue is with std::variant
13:57:10  <LordAro> make our own std::variant!
14:04:11  <glx> <-- seems some workarounds exist
14:33:23  <TrueBrain> glx: it is to run
14:33:31  <TrueBrain> and the issue is with std::visit, a missing exception
14:33:41  <TrueBrain> there are workarounds, but that is a lot of effort and really hard to test for us
14:47:59  <orudge> Mojave (10.14) seems a reasonable baseline from an end user point of view, to me
14:57:22  <andythenorth> lol
14:57:36  <andythenorth> every test of industry -> town storage
14:57:47  <andythenorth> so far
14:57:57  <andythenorth> concludes that I'm better off just using an existing var
14:58:10  * andythenorth needs to try harder
15:23:18  <peter1138> It's nearly payday and I don't need a 3D printer but do I want one?
15:24:06  <TrueBrain> Yes
15:24:28  <TrueBrain> The amount of shit I printed over the last 2 years .. everyone should have one :p
15:24:42  <peter1138> Oh no. I'd have to research what to buy...
15:25:07  <TrueBrain> I am biased btw .. turns out I am pretty decent in making 3D designs for stuff
15:25:14  <TrueBrain> so if something breaks these days .. I print a replacement part :P
15:25:29  <TrueBrain> doesn't work well for a girlfriend btw, expensive print
15:25:54  <TrueBrain> what-ever you buy, you will spend a few more on upgrades, as very soon you are annoyed by the lack of NNN
15:26:04  <TrueBrain> I started with a sticky bed, but upgraded to a glass one real quick
15:26:14  <TrueBrain> can't believe I tried a non-glass bed first ..
15:26:18  <TrueBrain> they are the worst
15:26:23  <glx> heated or not ?
15:26:26  <TrueBrain> ofc
15:26:35  <TrueBrain> that is the whole point of a glass bed in my book :P
15:26:57  <TrueBrain> similar with the firmware ... keep it stock? Fuck no
15:27:00  <TrueBrain> upgraded within a month
15:27:09  <TrueBrain> "I don't need a raspberry pi to control the printer"
15:27:12  <TrueBrain> fuck yes you do
15:27:24  <TrueBrain> printing is 1000x easier with it
15:27:37  <TrueBrain> "what use is a webcam?!" .. well .. without it printing is dreadful
15:27:40  <glx> not requiring a connection to PC is vital too
15:28:18  <TrueBrain> "1 PLA is enough to test this stuff with" .. few weeks later .. I have a shit ton of PLA, PLEG .. still no ABS, I don't want to try that :D
15:28:31  <TrueBrain> so yeah ... make sure to reserve some time too peter1138 , not just money :P
15:29:22  <glx> oh and a room where noise doesn't matter ;)
15:29:35  <TrueBrain> or ... buy better controllers that make less noise :P
15:29:44  <TrueBrain> but yeah .. it is an annoying sound after a while
15:29:51  <TrueBrain> especially if you start 1+ hour prints :D
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15:30:11  <TrueBrain> worst part of most stock printers, they do not have diodes between the stepper motors and the controller
15:30:19  <TrueBrain> meaning that if you move the bed back and forth, the controller powers up
15:30:23  <TrueBrain> which is hilarious, but also really bad
15:30:42  <andythenorth> 3D printers sound like fish tanks
15:30:50  <TrueBrain> pretty much so
15:30:55  <andythenorth> there's always another thing to buy
15:31:05  <andythenorth> and they require consumables
15:31:06  <TrueBrain> in the end I bought a pretty cheap Ender 3 .. and upgraded it far beyond its initial cost :P
15:31:28  <andythenorth> so should I allow EAF in BOF towns?
15:31:31  * andythenorth steel industry
15:31:35  <glx> probably still less than buying something fully upgraded
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15:31:46  <andythenorth> town radius ain't so big on a lot of maps
15:31:57  <andythenorth> it would be good to be able to agglomerate neighbouring towns
15:32:05  <andythenorth> so I could create, e.g. a region
15:32:07  <andythenorth> on request
15:32:28  <andythenorth> "give me the map in regions of [3] neighbouring towns"
15:32:40  <andythenorth> "give me the map in regions of [7] neighbouring towns"
15:33:15  <andythenorth> each region gets an index
15:33:20  <andythenorth> each region gets some perm storage
15:33:40  <andythenorth> but multiple layers of regions can be defined for different purposes
15:34:05  <glx> stop trying to do GS in newgrf :)
15:35:00  <andythenorth> stop trying to do the economy in GS, it can't do it :P
15:35:16  <andythenorth> repeat that conversation for last 10 years
15:35:33  * andythenorth got bored of that conversation, is now just doing GS in newgrf
15:38:21  <andythenorth> current problem: I have defined 'keystone' industries, which are a critical part of [some chain]
15:38:33  <andythenorth> and the other industries won't build in a town without the keystone
15:38:50  <andythenorth> the keystone sets a flag in a town register when built
15:38:52  <andythenorth> the others read it
15:39:08  <andythenorth> then I allowed two different keystones into a town :P
15:39:13  * andythenorth poor life choices
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16:00:35  <Taschi> huh, i thought i might try and fix #9396 but apparently glx already did
16:00:54  <glx> yeah I had an idea, so I tried :)
16:02:00  <Taschi> i guess my PR and yours are going to clash, tho
16:02:33  <Taschi> we both touched line 1401ff. in openttd.cpp
16:02:53  <glx> yeah they are on the same area so conflicts are expected
16:02:58  <Taschi> shouldn't be too hard to merge them
16:03:21  <Taschi> but it will require an additional commit
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16:22:04  <LordAro> we prefer rebasing to merge commits
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16:36:51  <Taschi> either way manual code changes will be required because glx changed a bit from openttd.cpp which i refactored into another file entirely
16:37:15  <LordAro> not a problem, we're quite able to deal with conflicts :p
16:37:23  <LordAro> well, glx is anyway
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16:38:32  <Taschi> ngl, if making toast was as hard as soldering i'd have starved ages ago
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17:52:46  <Samu> the amount of code i have just for removing a single canal tile
17:53:02  <Samu> checking if that would block connections
18:00:53  <peter1138> Why not just not remove a canal tile?
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18:51:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:51:07  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:00:14  <Taschi> so i'm kind of lost on what i could do next, now that glx has rudely stolen my ticket from me
19:01:55  <Taschi> i'd be grateful for suggestions
19:02:37  <Taschi> (tho i'll probably spend the weekend with a mix of bike trips and being too exhausted to think straight)
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19:04:19  <FLHerne> Taschi: read through andy's complaints about newgrf spec and figure out if any are actionable :p
19:04:43  <FLHerne> but that way lies only madness
19:05:33  <FLHerne> Various annoyances with road vehicle overtaking?
19:06:17  <FLHerne> 9033, 9236, the issue that articulated vehicles can't overtake at all
19:06:20  <Taschi> i've never done anything with NewGRF aside from downloading and playing with them, so I'm probably bad at identifying pain points with that specific API
19:06:42  <FLHerne> which is so longstanding that there isn't even an issue open for it :p
19:07:46  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9395: Change #9188: Netsave now behaves like autosave
19:08:48  <FLHerne> On the netsave front, there's also
19:09:02  <FLHerne> which is mitigated by rotating netsaves, but seems independent from it
19:10:04  <Taschi> yeah, i saw that... question is, is there an easy way to identify if the current game is the title game?
19:10:17  <glx> maybe game mode
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19:10:23  <glx> but not sure at all
19:10:56  <Taschi> the netsave rotation thing definitely means #8887 will mostly be harmless
19:11:36  <Taschi> btw i've seen your review comments, will try to fix them tomorrow
19:13:16  <Taschi> tbh i'm still trying to figure out what pointers and references really are, most my experience is in Java where pointers don't really exist
19:13:26  <Taschi> *most of
19:14:19  <Taschi> and i'm mostly here because at work i occasionally spend an entire week troubleshooting problems with my IDE and i thought actually writing code might be nice
19:17:46  <Taschi> btw, do you have any code style/formatting validator like Checkstyle or Sonarqube?
19:18:35  <glx> no, and I'm always fighting with MSVC on some format :)
19:21:51  <Taschi> eh, the "else on newline" thing you pointed out is actually exactly what we do at work in Java so i should be able to remember it
19:21:58  <Taschi> emphasis on "should"
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19:53:02  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: As I don't really use OSX, I wouldn't mind either way :) I would somewhat mind newer than 10.14, as 10.15+ (11) runs noticeably choppier in VMware.
19:53:22  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: haha, I have the same, yes :P
19:53:36  <TrueBrain> well, I guess we will just merge that PR in that case, as nobody seems to object :P
19:53:49  <TrueBrain> well, still needs a review, but I will do that tomorrow
19:54:06  <michi_cc> I haven't look if std::visit is something 3rdparty-able.
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19:59:03  <TrueBrain> well, we can just merge this PR, and look at those things later if people complain, I guess
20:01:56  <michi_cc> JGR has patched for the std::optional (C++17) on OSX, so we can just wait to see which solutions appears in JGRPP :D
20:02:35  <michi_cc> I mean the compile time SDK/XCode dependency, not some runtime dependency.
20:02:47  <TrueBrain> nice
20:03:30  <michi_cc> Well, I think he just undid our de-vendoring of 3rdparty optional, but I infer from this that he might do something about 10.14+ :D
20:04:26  <glx> our main issue with std::variant is runtime dependency
20:05:02  <glx> for compile we are on 10.15 anyway
20:05:09  <michi_cc> I know, I'm just arguing tongue-in-cheek that we can outsource that to JGR.
20:05:39  <TrueBrain> glx: huh? I think both me and michi_cc compile on 10.14 :P
20:06:03  <michi_cc> It was snails 10.12 XCode that is too old to compile master.
20:06:46  <glx> anyway we still have 10.12 users (remember all the crash reports)
20:08:25  <glx> and apple uses a weird clang versioning :)
20:21:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Taschi120 commented on pull request #9397: Feature: Persistant rotation of numbered autosave after restart
20:22:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Taschi120 commented on pull request #9395: Change #9188: Netsave now behaves like autosave
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20:43:43  <Samu> i'm questioning this line
20:44:22  <Samu> for visualization, these are the tiles
20:44:49  <Samu> especially, line 867
20:46:55  <Samu> if there is a connection between t_mp_sp and t_mp_sn via t_mp, why do I care if there is a connection between t_mp and t_2mp
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20:48:16  <Samu> i made this code last year, i can't remember why I did the check like that
20:48:35  <Samu> but today, on reviewing it, that line 867 intrigues me
20:48:58  <glx> visually I'm not sur it's possible to connect t_mp_sp and t_mp_sn via t_mp
20:50:27  <Samu> i'm trying to check if there is still a connection between t_mp_sp and t_mp_sn if t_mp is not available
20:50:50  <Samu> in the picture, a lock blocks the connection, and i wanna check if there's an alternative connection
20:52:58  <Samu> the lock doesn't actually exist yet
20:53:24  <Samu> it is planned there
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20:54:18  <Samu> a better pic:
20:56:52  <Samu> the planned lock, if it's built:
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20:57:08  <glx> I think t_mp-t_2mp check is useless here
20:58:43  <Samu> that's what I think too now, if only i could remember what i was thinking last year :(
20:58:52  <glx> but it's an easy shortcut
20:59:16  <glx> if there's no link between mp and 2mp no need to check the other tiles
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