Log for #openttd on 13th July 2021:
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06:13:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] LordAro commented on issue #234: [uk_UA] Translator access request
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06:45:14  <Gustavo6046>   ld.lld: error: Invalid record (Producer: 'LLVM13.0.0git' Reader: 'LLVM 12.0.0')
06:45:18  <Gustavo6046> Ugh, my system is a bit messy right now.
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07:54:26  <andythenorth> yo
07:54:32  <andythenorth> let's talk about probability!
07:54:42  <andythenorth> everyone's favourite branch of maths, right?
07:55:08  <andythenorth> industry A has a 25% chance of doubling production every 3 months
07:55:20  <andythenorth> industry B has a 25% chance of doubling production every 6 months
07:55:28  <andythenorth> after 10 years, which has more production?
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08:29:28  <andythenorth> where is Eddi|zuHause when we need him? :P
08:30:08  <Rubidium> that depends on the initial production; are those the same?
08:30:25  <andythenorth> yes
08:30:27  <andythenorth> 100%
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08:31:02  <andythenorth> this is independent probabilities?
08:31:15  <andythenorth> but on a map with enough industries, a consistent pattern would emerge?
08:31:30  * andythenorth mostly failed probability and statistics exams
08:32:48  <andythenorth> oh there's a simulator
08:42:13  <peter1138> Needs a faster speed than 200.
08:42:39  <andythenorth> hmm
08:42:55  <andythenorth> if only OpenTTD had some kind of random industry production change cb....
08:43:10  <peter1138> Use presignals
08:44:05  <andythenorth> block
08:44:14  <peter1138> Implied.
08:44:54  <andythenorth> when did smooth economy get added anyway?
08:45:00  * andythenorth can't find any forum history of it
08:50:02  <peter1138> A while ago :)
08:50:15  <peter1138> Hmm, problem with expensive cycle computers is the batteries don't last forever.
08:50:57  <peter1138> My ~3 year old Edge 120 is meant to be able to last 15 hours, but shows most of the battery used after an hour or so...
08:51:00  <andythenorth> solar!
08:51:05  <andythenorth> hub generator
08:51:23  <peter1138> I have a dynamo hub on my touring bike, but no USB output.
08:51:44  <peter1138> Maybe I can splice one in.
08:52:30  <peter1138> Sinewave Revolution USB Charger. £119.99. No.
08:54:46  <andythenorth> 5v output?
08:54:59  <andythenorth> it's only 2 or 4 wires or something
08:55:07  * andythenorth looked into it once
08:55:08  <peter1138> Dynamo output is "iffy".
08:55:16  <andythenorth> oh you'd need something to smooth it out
08:55:20  <andythenorth> yeah faff
08:55:23  <andythenorth> new batteries?
08:55:31  <peter1138> Not replaceable :/
08:55:41  <peter1138> Well, probably is with the right tools.
08:56:49  <peter1138> Oh, it's a Edge 130, not 120. Last time I rode it decided to switch off the GPS which was less than helpful.
08:57:10  <peter1138> "To open the 130, you need to heat up the display with a hairdryer."
08:57:11  <peter1138> Feck.
08:57:48  <andythenorth> you'll need a splonger
08:58:19  <andythenorth> or was it a spudger?
08:58:45  <peter1138> Original battery is 180mAh, pretty tiny.
09:03:59  <peter1138> Mind you th
09:04:34  <peter1138> Mind you, just the front dynamo lamp on my bike costs £130+ to replace. It looks like a small shell with an LED in it....
09:09:18  <andythenorth> are bike parts now made by Apple?
09:09:30  <andythenorth> or expensive things are just expensive?
09:10:30  <peter1138> Yeah. It's decent German stuff, not knock-off tat from Amazon.
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11:21:51  <andythenorth> so nobody wanted to talk about probability :P
11:21:53  * andythenorth has lunch
11:26:11  <andythenorth> I'm not sure this is correct at all
11:26:30  <andythenorth> claims that rolling two dice, probability of 2 sixes is 36
11:26:37  <andythenorth> for fairly weighted dice
11:27:11  <andythenorth> BUT also demonstrates mathematically that rolling one die twice in succession, probability of 2 sixes is 42
11:27:26  <andythenorth> (1/36 and 1/42)
11:28:07  <andythenorth> why does introducing a temporal order make the probability dependent not independent?
11:28:42  <andythenorth> this is probably too much on-topic for this channel to discuss :)
11:28:47  <andythenorth> RNG in games :P
11:32:10  <Rubidium> andythenorth: I think it's a bit like the Monty Hall problem
11:33:13  <Rubidium> as you're only going to roll the second die if the first die is 6
11:33:26  <andythenorth> ah
11:33:33  <andythenorth> yes that changes causally
11:35:15  <andythenorth> oh I just understood Monty Hall
11:35:20  <andythenorth> first time I got it
11:35:30  <andythenorth> it's sooooo simple, and sooooo counter intuitive
11:40:48  <andythenorth> it's really easy to miss that the host knows where the goats and car are
11:47:53  <Timberwolf> Pick the door the host just opened.
11:48:08  <Timberwolf> I already have a car. I don't have a goat. That's clearly the option of maximal gain,.
11:56:21  <andythenorth> stick with the door you chose then
11:57:51  * andythenorth will be having many adventures in industry RNG
11:58:03  <andythenorth> map-global storage for industry grf anyone?
11:58:31  <andythenorth> my flash game career taught me that "RNG is bad"
11:58:35  <andythenorth> fake RNG is what makes good games
11:59:26  <andythenorth> but fake RNG isn't possible without map-global registers
12:01:24  <andythenorth> 256 registers per grf, stored in the map, only the grf can write, others can read maybe
12:01:41  <andythenorth> accessed via a specific var number, because PARENT -> PARENT is not a thing
12:02:06  <andythenorth> hmm dunno how we'd write though, vars are read only?
12:02:09  * Timberwolf suffers flashbacks to Civ 2 combat and/or X-Com aimed shots.
12:02:20  <andythenorth> such RNG
12:12:22  <andythenorth> not just you Timberwolf :P
12:12:31  <andythenorth>
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13:25:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened issue #9440: [Bug]: Inflation breaks negative cargo payments
13:28:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9440: [Bug]: Inflation breaks negative cargo payments
13:29:06  <Samu> speaking of inflation, i gotta try my ai building ships with inflation
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13:53:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #9440: [Bug]: Inflation breaks negative cargo payments
13:56:43  <Samu> what's a good map size for 15 companies?
13:57:03  <Samu> in your opinions
14:05:09  <Samu> arf, some AIs don't work too well with a £2,000,000,000 loan
14:19:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9440: [Bug]: Inflation breaks negative cargo payments
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14:24:25  <Samu> a blessing and a curse
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14:40:11  <Samu> Elite Scam Servers
14:40:49  <Samu> how does it even manage to speed up the game is beyond me
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14:46:33  <Samu> the way I read their service, they are messing with process priorities
14:46:47  <Samu> why not let the OS do that
14:46:58  <Samu> they're incompetent indeed
14:48:00  <Samu> they offer a service built on incompetence
14:52:28  <Samu> whenever i mess with process priorities myself, I often don't get the desired result. it may improve performance for this specific process, but it also means, all the other processes will suffer in some way
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15:12:49  <Belu> Hi, any ideea how to change a train's order going through all stations forwards and backwards too ? example station A > B > C > D > E when at the end E start backwards to all stations E > D > C > B > A
15:18:09  <glx> add all stops manually
15:18:53  <glx> ABCDEDCB
15:19:39  <Belu> by default in the original version when you added the GO TO order, and reached the end of all stations, the train stopped at every station again backwards by default, how can I change this to be default like in the original old version
15:19:45  <glx> but AE can be enough depending on order type
15:20:34  <Belu> don'twant to wate time everytime when I create a line to do this manual stopping thing
15:21:06  <SpComb> there's non-non-stop orders that stop at whatever intermediate stations the train happens to pass through, based on path-finding
15:21:33  <Belu> so it's something about path finding ?
15:21:42  <glx> no it's in the orders
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15:22:14  <Belu> i wasted my time with orders and no logical success
15:22:22  <Belu> so should be some defaults in the settings
15:22:34  <glx> there are different options "go to" "go non stop to" "go via" and "go non stop via"
15:22:44  <glx> you want "go to"
15:22:53  <Belu> but I do not want to mess my time every time when i do this
15:23:00  <Belu> in the old version it was working naturally perfect
15:23:19  <Belu> it was all ok by default
15:24:10  <Belu> ......eaqch and every time waste my time additional thousands of clicks with messing time with "orders"
15:30:48  <milek7> there's setting for default order type
15:39:46  <glx> "New orders are 'non-stop' by default" this setting defaults to true
15:45:05  <glx> ah and it's a quite recent change (used to be false by default)
15:50:43  <Belu> PERFECT, THANK YOU
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15:52:01  <LordAro> was non-stop one of the defaults we changed in 1.11 ?
15:52:14  <LordAro> or is that one of the ones that's been different for 10 years?
15:52:49  <glx> it's one of the changed default
15:57:07  <Taschi> am i the only one who was incredibly amused by the space heater spam post earlier today?
15:57:26  <LordAro> xkcd 1172?
15:57:40  <LordAro> oh, no, the actual spam
15:58:32  <Taschi> i mean, who runs space heater comparison sites anyway? that is inherently a very weird thing to me
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17:10:38  <Samu> wasn't dock radius 6 tiles?
17:11:01  <Samu> coverage area
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17:17:24  <Samu> heh, 5
17:17:35  <Samu> i was under the impression it was 6 all this time
17:19:37  <glx> it's 5 or 4
17:30:54  <Samu> I'm getting abysmal graphics rendering performance
17:32:53  <Samu> let me see what happens when i close 70 windows
17:33:21  <Samu> problem gone instantly
17:33:50  <glx> depends on windows, some are not very optimised
17:34:33  <glx> full redraw with data fetching on each frame
17:35:42  <Samu> 15x road vehicle list, 15x ship list, 15x aircraft list, 15x station list
17:35:56  <Samu> 5 graphs
17:36:02  <Samu> global goal window
17:36:08  <Samu> script log window
17:36:14  <Samu> framerate window
17:36:20  <Samu> screenshot window
17:36:36  <LordAro> close them one (type) at a time
17:36:46  <Samu> too late, i pressed Delete
17:37:07  <glx> framerate is known to hit performance
17:37:28  <glx> but maybe some other window classes are concerned
17:37:50  <Samu> i had a screenshot of it yesterday, let me find
17:38:11  <glx> hmm station list maybe (waiting cargo graphbar)
17:38:27  <Samu>
17:39:37  <Samu> it's my AI focused custom build
17:39:40  <glx> I can imagine graphs being a possible issue too
17:40:10  <glx> vehicle list should in theory not eat to much in the screenshot as they are folded
17:40:39  <glx> but get string for the title may consume
17:41:00  <LordAro> either way, screenshot on its own not enough
17:41:04  <LordAro> additional testing needed :)
17:41:20  <Samu> ewww, reopening closed windows, oh man, daunting quest
17:41:36  <glx> indeed, screenshot only shows an issue, but won't tell more
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17:44:06  <Samu> gonna open station list for testing
17:44:23  <glx> one class at a time :)
17:46:52  <Samu> there's a 500-800 ms spike with all 15 station lists open
17:47:01  <Samu> every 5 seconds or so
17:47:24  <Samu> oh, it's getting worse
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17:50:26  <Samu>
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17:52:09  <Samu> let me try now 15x road vehicles
17:53:19  <glx> for station list misc debug level 3 may give a hint
17:54:36  <glx> it's quite possible the list is resort every tick
17:55:39  <Samu>
17:55:46  <Samu> not terrible
17:55:52  <Samu> 15x road vehicles
17:56:53  <glx> not bad for the number of windows
17:57:05  <Samu> gonna have dinner, be back later to test this
17:58:21  <glx> station list could benefit from a resort on hundredth tick instead of game tick
17:58:36  <glx> but it's just a wild guess
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18:52:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:52:44  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:07:23  <Samu> all 60 open again
19:07:29  <Samu> the long spikes are back
19:09:31  <Samu> gonna close stations
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19:13:26  <Samu> the spikes disappear
19:13:33  <Samu> it's the stationlist
19:15:31  <Samu> i just dont understand how sometimes it spikes to 5000 ms
19:15:39  <Samu> it's usually 500 ms spikes
19:29:47  <Samu> lol
19:30:47  <Samu> i mistyped misc
19:30:53  <Samu>
19:31:09  <Samu> is this where the error message is supposed to show?
20:00:34  <Samu> debuglevel misc=3, i notice multiple dbg: [misc] Building station list for company 'x' in a row
20:00:51  <Samu> that's what's causing the 5000 ms spikes
20:02:18  <Samu> each company takes aproximately 400-500 ms
20:02:47  <Samu> building vehicle lists in contrast build very very fast
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20:18:49  <andythenorth> and yet vehicle window kills FPS
20:18:51  <andythenorth> so eh
20:18:53  <andythenorth> go figure :)
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20:55:14  <Samu> LoadUnloadVehicle can send an invalidate window data to WC_STATION_LIST
20:56:07  <Samu> if (dirty_station)
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21:22:00  <Samu> weird, InvalidateWindowData(WC_STATION_LIST, st->owner, 1);
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21:22:26  <Samu> InvalidateWindowData(WC_STATION_LIST, st->index);
21:22:58  <Samu> sometimes it's passing owner, sometimes it's passing station id
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22:11:09  <peter1138> Urgh, haproxy -> apache -> tomcat
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