Log for on 23rd December 2012:
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01:05:08  <frosch123> night
01:05:23  <frosch123> if you cannot sleep take a look at the strings above :)
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12:30:32  <frosch123> <- repost from last night
12:30:38  <frosch123> i think i need to drop the menu entry for news settings
12:30:54  <frosch123> they are all advanced, so the filtered window is empty when "basic" is selected
12:31:13  <frosch123> also, what do you think about the click_beep thingie?
12:31:27  <frosch123> i would not mind completely removing all those beeps :p
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12:31:34  <frosch123> it's inconsistent anyway
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12:40:19  <Alberth> let's start with 'hi' :)
12:40:45  <frosch123> moin :)
12:41:02  <Alberth> you've been busy I see  :)
12:41:14  <frosch123> not as busy as michi :)
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12:59:32  <Alberth> 40 ShowGameSettings  needs a @param filter_string    added
13:00:27  <Alberth> and technically, the window constructor also needs it, but we tend to not document those classes.
13:01:45  <Alberth> 50 typo  +/** Souind effects sub-page */
13:06:09  <Alberth> very nice
13:06:42  <frosch123> any opinion on the click_beep?
13:06:50  <frosch123> keep as setting or remove completely?
13:07:07  <Alberth> yeah, that was the next thing :)
13:08:07  <Alberth> personally, I'd remove it. I am wondering however do we have actions that are not visually confirmed?
13:08:30  <frosch123> yes, and i used "confirm" in those cases :)
13:08:45  <frosch123> but it looks like those things are only scenario editor
13:08:59  <frosch123> like plant many trees or towns
13:09:21  <frosch123> hmm, but i guess some actions also miss it
13:09:33  <frosch123> i do not remember seeing prospect industry having a sound
13:09:56  <Alberth> as you said, it's inconsistent :p
13:10:51  <Alberth> I'd count 'plant a town' as being visually confirmed :p
13:11:41  <frosch123> when you click on the position, yes; but if you are zoomed in and use the plant many things accross the map, you might not see any
13:11:59  <Alberth> but I have no objection at all, to have a rule that a user should be able to see whether an action has happened or not, even if only in the absence of an error window
13:12:59  <Alberth> so, it looks like 'beep' is just a left-over from the original game then ;)
13:13:15  <Alberth> +1 on ditching it :)
13:22:26  <michi_cc> I like that beep :(
13:23:57  <Alberth> michi_cc: out of curiosity, do you also like the "are you sure you want to delete this file" confirmation window?
13:26:03  <michi_cc> Which confirmation window? Should I see that in OTTD?
13:26:34  <Alberth> in general with GUI programs
13:27:51  <Alberth> I generally hate all these kinds of confirmations; I know that I initiated an action :)
13:29:09  <Alberth> but perhaps I am biased, as I know I have an underlying VCS that can rescue anything really important
13:29:52  <michi_cc> Ah, most of the time I could do without them as well, but for the general public they have probably saved millions of dramas all over the world.
13:31:36  <Alberth> probably :)
13:32:48  <Alberth> although I have also witnessed interesting uses of the Trash bin recovery mechanism...  instead of deleting the non-interesting files, delete all, and recover the ones you wanted to keep ;)
13:35:32  <frosch123> michi_cc: really? all those beeps when opening "some" of the dropdowns?
13:54:36  <andythenorth> it's like computers on TV
13:54:41  <andythenorth> all computers on TV beep all the time
13:59:27  <michi_cc> frosch123: Call it nostalgia or whatever.
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18:44:34  *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r24841 || Logs: || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking"
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21:05:54  *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r24842 || Logs: || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking"
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21:24:22  *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r24847 || Logs: || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking"
21:25:44  <Zuu> For Story Book I see two main developments from the current API (
21:26:05  <Zuu> 1) Remove GSStoryBook.RemovePage and add GSStoryBook.RemoveAllPages
21:26:53  <Zuu> 2) Make pages ordered by a order number that is either automatic or maintained by the GS. Add an API method to insert pages not only at the end.
21:28:47  <Zuu> Personally I'm ok with 1). It makes for a simplier solution. But it will not allow inserting pages in the middle of the book. Something I don't know if that is desired from a user point of view.
21:28:49  <frosch123> i wonder whether there is actually any usecase in which a gs might want to remove a page
21:28:55  <frosch123> or whether this is all only theory
21:29:09  <frosch123> what happens for company-specific pages
21:29:14  <Zuu> Alberth proposed something like 2) to allow inserting pages.
21:29:31  <frosch123> when a company closes the gs likely wants to remove all pages of that company
21:29:33  <Zuu> But he had no specific GS in mind.
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21:30:10  <frosch123> also, how would general pages sort with company-specific pages?
21:30:10  <Zuu> Hmm, yes, I should make OpenTTD remove the pages automatically when a company closes.
21:30:57  <Zuu> The GUI use FOR_ALL_STORY_PAGES(s) { if (IsPageAvailable(s)) { Display(s); } }
21:31:11  <Zuu> IsPageAvailable basicalyl check if the page is global or for the current company.
21:31:28  <frosch123> i don't think gs should be able to insert pages in the middle, imo only appending at the end makes sense
21:31:40  <Zuu> Then we have the same opinion
21:31:48  <frosch123> so, maybe the pages should just get some date
21:31:53  <frosch123> and get sorted by the date
21:32:16  <frosch123> i think dates at the top of a page fits good into a storybook
21:32:19  <Zuu> hmm, asigning a date to them and displaying that would make sense.
21:32:57  <frosch123> it just needs some additional sorting index when pages are created within the same day
21:33:03  <frosch123> ottd could just increment that one
21:34:22  <Zuu> Hmm, given that we want to remove pages of closed down companies, the 1) option above to keep using the pool index as sorting attribute will not hold.
21:35:01  <frosch123> yup, also think so :) so better add some member variable for sorting
21:35:06  <frosch123> e.g. the date
21:35:07  <Zuu> yes
21:35:22  <frosch123> i don't think though gs should sort them manually
21:35:53  <Zuu> If we want a chronological book, then GS shouldn't get the control to insert pages in the past history.
21:36:19  <frosch123> yes, i think that should be the first step
21:36:21  <Zuu> So in that case, that makes good sense.
21:36:31  <frosch123> it can still be extended, if there is a usecase for custom sorting/inserting
21:37:53  <Zuu> The case when I would clear all pages as a GS would be at the completion of a tutorial chapter. But I also realize that it is not necessary to do that. The previous chapter can also just remain so that a user that want to look back on it, have the freedome to do so.
21:39:30  <Zuu> Right, I think we have a conclusion now that for now we aim at a GS interface such as 1) above, but the underlying data structure need to have a new sorting attribute. Eg. date and maybe an additional byte for handling up to 255 news messages on the same date.
21:40:08  <frosch123> maybe make them just independent
21:40:30  <frosch123> a date to display, and a uint32 sorting index, which is just incremented for every page
21:40:32  <frosch123> independent of the date
21:40:53  <Zuu> Perhaps allow the GS to specify a date into the future to schedule the page to appear then?
21:41:14  <Zuu> Though that is more a feature for GSNews than the story book.
21:41:19  <frosch123> hmm, unless the story book should say "2012-12-23 1/3" "2012-12-23 2/3" "2012-12-23 3/3" for multiple pages per date
21:41:46  <frosch123> Zuu: that would totally break with the date cheat :)
21:44:48  <Zuu> The case when you would create more than 255 pages on the same date that I could think of is if you want to create a non-interactive text book when a game/scenario is started.
21:45:49  <Zuu> And I wonder if that is really going to happen.
21:46:22  <Zuu> E-book via bananas :-)
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21:55:20  <Zuu> Oh, if I take over a company, do I get its pages?
21:55:27  <Zuu> I would say no
21:55:32  <frosch123> :p
21:55:39  <frosch123> what happens to goals?
21:55:40  <Zuu> The same would go for goals.
21:55:46  <Zuu> Just my question..
22:01:55  <Zuu> I found the code that does the owner transfer. It transfers ege subsidies but not goals. At least the word "goal" doesn't appear anywhere in the method.
22:02:35  <Zuu> (ChangeOwnershipOfCompanyItems in economy.cpp)
22:04:01  <frosch123> it looks to me like it is all up to the gs
22:04:12  <frosch123> goals also seem to remain when a company bankrupts and a new one start
22:04:18  <Zuu> Hmm, yes
22:04:31  <Zuu> Perhaps we should fix it so that the goals are auto-removed?
22:04:54  <frosch123> i am not sure, but iirc there was the policy that the gs has to clean up stuff
22:04:56  <Zuu> At least that is what I would expect as a GS rather than a new company taking them over.
22:05:18  <frosch123> also with other stuff gs can create
22:05:22  <Zuu> The problem is that a new company can start faster than that the GS have time to clean up.
22:06:04  <frosch123> well, in that case also check the cargomonitors and such :)
22:06:39  <Zuu> yep, it is maybe more a -Change than a -Fix.
22:12:10  *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r24848 || Logs: || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking"
23:02:49  <Zuu> If it is correct that it is only Goals and CargoMonitor (I tried to review the API to look for more but couldn't think of any more), then this patch will clean up these objects upon a company bankrupt or takeover:
23:03:38  <frosch123> ah, i remember what we discussed last year
23:04:01  <frosch123> it was about {INDUSTRY} in GSText messages and such
23:04:04  <Zuu> I don't remember the discusison and there might be good arguments for the current solution.
23:04:17  <frosch123> we decided to not remove news/goals/townguitexts which reference invalid stuff
23:05:41  <Zuu> Ok, so similar but not exactly the same question.
23:07:02  <frosch123> i think similar was said about cargomonitors for closing industries
23:07:16  <frosch123> the cargomonitors remain, since the gs might still want to query the very last cargo
23:07:22  <frosch123> esp. for "pickup"
23:07:28  <frosch123> which might still be in transit
23:07:55  <Zuu> My opinion is that it would be better to clean up GS created things like goals, cargo monitors, story pages etc. after a company, as it may sometimes take a month before the GS get to process the company close event something which novise GS authors might not even think about to handle.
23:08:25  <Zuu> But this is also a thing that is not easy, so I do think that a desicion have to wait for more opinions.
23:09:56  <Zuu> The problem I see is mainly that the player on the new company may get confused by seeing information that was aimed for another player for some time before the GS have time to clean up.
23:10:01  <frosch123> #define FOR_ALL_PICKUP(tar, sd) for (tar = _tar_filelist[sd].begin(); tar != _tar_filelist[sd].end(); tar++) <- what's that?
23:10:19  <Zuu> That is unused code that I accidently left.
23:11:05  <Zuu> I was looking for a generic FOR_EACH_STL define in OpenTTD but couldn't find one. Later I realized that I need two iterators to not cut of the branch that I'm sitting on. :-)
23:11:20  <frosch123> +void ClearCargoMonitoring(CargoMonitorMap &cargo_monitor_map, CompanyID company = INVALID_OWNER) <- should be static, it is not referenced outside of the module
23:12:41  <frosch123> s/regaradless/regardless/
23:13:47  <frosch123> clearing stuff on closing companies is fine to me
23:14:03  <frosch123> i don't think taking over companies should include taking over goals or cargomonitors
23:14:10  <frosch123> so stopping them is best
23:16:07  <Zuu> A problem with doing this extra cleaning is that in the future we might end up with cases when the right thing to do is not as clear as now.
23:16:28  <Zuu> At least that is what I would argue if I would be against implementing cleaning now.
23:18:55  <Zuu> I've updated the patch now with respect to your comments as well as removing some spaces at the end of line which I found.
23:20:32  <frosch123> looks fine to me
23:27:38  <Zuu> Maybe it should document the changed behaviour in the GS changelog?
23:28:04  <frosch123> i would consider it a fix :p

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