Log for #openttdcoop on 30th March 2012:
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00:11:37  <Rhamphoryncus> One day, in a moment of extremely poor judgement, you will all decide to play a map I suggest XD
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09:09:30  <Hazzard> Hello
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09:25:58  <Mazur> Halo II.
09:27:14  <Hazzard> ._.
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11:17:28  <Mark> aloha
11:21:12  <Mazur> Hola.
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12:51:46  <Mark> !password
12:51:46  <PublicServer> Mark: rebuts
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12:55:37  <PublicServer> <Mark> new game new game new game
12:55:47  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> well end game
12:55:53  <V453000> sunday sunday sunday
12:55:58  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> :)
12:56:05  <PublicServer> <Mark> i want it now now now
12:56:29  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> BBH 04 is not working as fluently as yesterday it was
12:56:59  <PublicServer> <Mark> 04 is ugly :P
12:57:09  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> is awesome
12:57:31  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> but north line is full...
12:57:45  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> expand to 5 lines? XD?
12:58:05  <V453000> it should be ok with the current load
12:58:13  <V453000> yesterday it was and no trains were added I believe
12:58:15  <PublicServer> <Mark> yeah it is
12:58:29  <PublicServer> <Mark> just the balancer is full, but thats what its for
12:58:56  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> I am just saying tha all 5 lines there are almost full,
12:59:02  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> main line at capacity almost
12:59:16  <V453000> almost = ok
12:59:16  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> right most line only has some gaps
13:00:07  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> I know , I saw games where you were making sure that it was full. Logic driven injectors shifters and so on
13:00:32  <PublicServer> <Mark> compressors :D
13:01:42  <PublicServer> <Mark> V: whats the pf trap?
13:01:52  <PublicServer> <Mark> is it just for construction?
13:02:58  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> It is for pathfiding, so train will choose line because pathfinding will find station or something there, and than it wont be able to actully go there.
13:03:09  <PublicServer> <Mark> well obviously
13:03:11  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> used mostly in overflows i think
13:03:18  <PublicServer> <Mark> doesnt seem needed though
13:03:39  <V453000> mfb added that "because there is something often built" on the refinery line
13:03:40  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> where?
13:03:42  <V453000> which made trains lost
13:03:44  <V453000> I hate it tbh
13:03:46  <PublicServer> <Mark> probably to avoid trains getting lost when ml is under consctruction
13:03:50  <PublicServer> <Mark> yeah
13:04:48  <PublicServer> <Mark> bridges unsynced at ref drop
13:04:55  <PublicServer> <Mark> tempted to make that a landbridge
13:05:14  <V453000> I knows, does it jam anything?
13:05:22  <V453000> !password
13:05:22  <PublicServer> V453000: cowing
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13:05:34  <PublicServer> <Mark> well, the ml, not all the way to 04 though
13:06:21  <PublicServer> <V453000> which?
13:06:24  <PublicServer> <V453000> the water crossing?
13:06:27  <PublicServer> <Mark> yeah
13:06:34  <PublicServer> <V453000> kill water?
13:06:37  <PublicServer> <Mark> its nothing bad really, its just ugly :P
13:06:43  <PublicServer> <Mark> yeah im tempted
13:06:45  <PublicServer> <V453000> I also hate how it slows
13:07:35  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> how was it unsynced?
13:07:41  <PublicServer> <V453000> it wasnt
13:07:44  <PublicServer> <V453000> just evil mode
13:07:50  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> oh ok
13:09:37  <PublicServer> <V453000> move it more to the edge?
13:09:47  <PublicServer> <Mark> sure
13:09:58  <PublicServer> <Mark> suppose that pf trap does have its uses :P
13:10:10  <PublicServer> <V453000> for this, yes
13:11:16  <PublicServer> <Mark> we blocked the annual whale miggration
13:11:22  <PublicServer> <V453000> :D
13:11:24  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> haha
13:11:27  <PublicServer> <Mark> they're all going to get stuck in that corner
13:14:03  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> hey is that "shifting" setup of termius at rafinery drop better than typical X setup or just different
13:14:05  <PublicServer> <Mark> greenpeace'd
13:14:19  <PublicServer> <Mark> its better
13:14:21  <PublicServer> <Mark> :P
13:14:31  <PublicServer> <V453000> depends in what
13:14:31  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> yeah thats what i though, but wasnt sure
13:14:35  <PublicServer> <Mark> trains dont "share" tiles in it
13:14:37  <PublicServer> <V453000> in size it is a lot worse
13:14:39  <PublicServer> <Mark> x-less design
13:14:45  <PublicServer> <V453000> in platform efficiency it is better
13:14:51  <PublicServer> <V453000> in the end it doesnt matter
13:15:01  <PublicServer> <Mark> looks cooler :P
13:15:08  <PublicServer> <V453000> yes that it does :)
13:15:10  <PublicServer> <Mark> im pretty sure size/effeciency ratio is better
13:15:25  <PublicServer> <Mark> and adds to wtf-content
13:15:39  <PublicServer> <V453000> well yeah the size isnt that terrible
13:16:41  <PublicServer> <Mark> Thorinbur: im pretty sure the "station" section on the wiki explains it
13:18:11  <PublicServer> <Thorinbur> i dont know, was wiki updated lately?
13:18:36  <Mark> well
13:18:44  <Mark> i wrote that article 3 years or so ago
13:18:50  <Mark> pretty sure its still more or less valid
13:18:57  <Mark> the general principle should be, anyway
13:19:56  <Thorinbur> thing that needs updating is tutorial game in my opinion
13:20:08  <V453000> every psg is tutorial game
13:20:09  <Mark> it does indeed
13:20:32  <PublicServer> *** Mark has left the game (connection lost)
13:20:50  <Mark> ah stupid f*ing ancient pc running out of memory
13:23:11  <Mark> Thorinbur:
13:23:33  <Mark> sort of up-to-date
13:24:02  <V453000> @abr07 might also be useful
13:24:03  <Webster> Advanced Building Revue 07: Stations at #openttdcoop -
13:24:14  <V453000> the terminus stuff probably isnt there, not sure
13:24:33  <V453000> ah, it is mentioned a bit
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13:25:18  <Mark> you should make a wiki article listing all your abrs
13:25:22  <Thorinbur> Well i know how to build station, dont need that many materials (but thanks anyway) was just curious about this particular design
13:26:00  <Thorinbur> wasnt sure if it is more efficient or just different for the sake of interest.
13:26:58  <V453000> mhm, perhaps, but I think putting effort into wiki would be better in firstly massively reorganizing it
13:27:14  <Mark> probably
13:27:19  <V453000> I wanted to add some articles like pf trap or the PBS->2way signalling but knew not where to put it
13:27:33  <Mark> advanced networking probably
13:27:35  <V453000> I dont know if someone orientates in it, but I certainly dont
13:27:46  <Mark> make an article on pathfinding
13:27:49  <Mark> or something
13:28:00  <V453000> yes but advanced networking .. of what, BBH, SLH, and next to that PF trap? doesnt make sense
13:28:19  <Mark> i mean advanced building concepts
13:28:41  <V453000> yes under which are things like SRNW or SML
13:28:47  <Mark> yes...
13:29:02  <V453000> I already started with some resystematization somewhere..
13:29:31  <Mark> make a catagory "networking theory" or something
13:29:48  <V453000> not sure if 100% finished but I worked on something like this
13:31:13  <V453000> the main purpose is to have three obvious categories
13:31:18  <V453000> 1. setting up and reading rules
13:31:29  <V453000> 2. basics that you really need to know
13:31:31  <V453000> 3. extra stuff
13:31:57  <V453000> and then the data like archive, grf etc, and last the community box
13:32:37  <Mark> yeah thats pretty much how it is now, the catagories could be shuffled and expanded a bit i suppose
13:33:01  <V453000> well not reall
13:33:15  <V453000> atm you have them all everywhere a bit I would say
13:33:31  <V453000> of course advanced isnt in setting up stuff, but mainline is there, sideline is there, then it is somehow again in the basics
13:33:42  <Mark> i guess "basics" and "advanced" is subjective
13:34:10  <V453000> partially, I think it is quite obvious in the end ... if you put basic general rules in basic, and concepts in advanced, it is quite well separated
13:34:36  <V453000> like ... when building a BBH you need to provide choices somehow. that is basic general rule. But having an article on All to all mergers and how exactly to do it is advanced
13:34:45  <hylje> gotta go fast
13:35:35  <Mark> yes... shame kenji is hardly around anymore, i think he started the wiki re-organzing years ago
13:35:56  <V453000> or the guide that you have on BBHs. That is great to show beginners how to build a standard BBH
13:36:38  <Mark> yes and it could re-direct to advanced merging and stuff, i see what you mean
13:36:44  <V453000> exactly
13:37:23  <V453000> if I hate something the most then it is the duplicity of stuff in different articles
13:37:33  <V453000> if you click mainline on the main page you get in two different spots
13:38:51  <Mark> hm wtf
13:39:15  <Mark> that old article even redirects to line_hierarchy, which was supposed to replace the old page :/
13:39:49  <Mark> IMO line hierarchy is a good base from which to explain all parts of the network
13:40:12  <Mark> have a short explanation on all and a redirect to the actual page, which then again redirects to the advanced stuff
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13:40:22  <Mark> of course it should also be accesible from the main page straight away
13:40:56  <Thorinbur> yeah, wiki is a mess right now.
13:40:59  <V453000> well of course but from one source, one page
13:41:47  <V453000> Basic Networking would be that hierarchy
13:41:49  <PublicServer> *** Thorinbur has left the game (leaving)
13:43:24  <V453000> rest in the basics is probably clear, game types need some cleanup but are rather easy to write, signalling... some examples on signals I guess, terraforming is clear, curves are clear, orders realyl need updating
13:44:05  <V453000> and then elementary building, as basic examples on stuff that works, like your standard BBH, making a standard SLH or eventually MSH, some basic balanced and not balanced station, and basic city network
13:44:12  <V453000> and from there anyone is ready to contribute
13:45:00  <V453000> I am unfortunately extremely busy lately but I hope I will have some spare time in the next few months
13:45:25  <Mark> i have had absolutely nothing to do the last few months but will be on the road again soon :P
13:45:48  <V453000> I knows :(
13:45:59  <Mark> suppose i could've done some usefull stuff
13:46:01  <Mark> oh well :D
13:46:07  <V453000> you did
13:46:13  <V453000> made some games alive, always good :)
13:46:23  <V453000> permanent contributions .. meh, work and effort
13:46:39  <Mark> :)
13:46:41  <V453000> people who want to build well will find their way through the archive anyway
13:47:00  <V453000> people who are lazy need the extracted bit on the wiki
13:47:18  <V453000> which certainly is good to have just for the sake of system and written knowledge, but still
13:47:51  <Thorinbur> Well, problem is there is always small window to build in those games
13:48:17  <V453000> I built for _months_ in singleplayer on my own until I learned majority of coop stuff
13:48:33  <V453000> then contributing is viable for you in any stage of game
13:48:54  <Thorinbur> I have problem with staying on one map long enought for it to get interesting
13:49:07  <V453000> I know I did the same
13:49:18  <V453000> but some few ended up great
13:49:19  <Thorinbur> I saw enought  coop games not to make basic mistakes so there are no problems to solve
13:49:45  <Thorinbur> never was able to reach capacity on my single player games.
13:49:46  <V453000> not enough traffic if there arent enough problems :D
13:49:59  <V453000> more industries then :>
13:50:01  <Thorinbur> I know, but i got borred of connecting primaries alone
13:50:09  <V453000> hm yeah :)
13:50:52  <Thorinbur> and when you enter coop, it is hard to do anything since veterans are building stuff rapidly and in amazing way.
13:51:13  <Thorinbur> I basicly build here like 4 BBH and few SLH
13:51:28  <Thorinbur> and my bigest BBHs were in the game with FIRS
13:51:37  <V453000> every map has a place for anyone to build
13:51:38  <Thorinbur> that got ditched due to complexity
13:51:50  <V453000> any FIRS game did?
13:51:52  <Thorinbur> so my hubs never got tested
13:52:26  <V453000> only FIRS games I can think of are 178 and 188
13:52:37  <V453000> probably 188 is the one but there were some expansions
13:52:47  <V453000> 178 was overkill in most places
13:53:36  <Mark> 222 was firs
13:54:00  <V453000> ok 178 it was
13:54:22  <Mark> 222 was my plan with like 30 main hubs
13:55:33  <Thorinbur> it was game 178
13:56:17  <Thorinbur> my first two Hubs, ah memories :)
13:56:31  <V453000> well, that is a long time ago, consider that games happen quite a bit differently nowadays
13:56:50  <V453000> we expand stuff more I think, and majority of your stuff really gets "tested"
13:59:00  <Thorinbur> What i am trying to say It is hard to join games and do anything
13:59:42  <Thorinbur> I tend to join quite randomly and 90% of the time It is network in the state i am afraid to touch anything
14:00:06  <V453000> well, why
14:00:51  <Thorinbur> Because I take long time to build anything due to lack of experience, and than it tends to quicly get replaced anyway
14:01:45  <V453000> I dont think you will fix that otherwise than by getting experience unfortunately, either on building on PS anyhow else
14:01:58  <Thorinbur> Last time i build something it took me about two hours localy to fit it in the space given, then i recreated it on the server and it was replaced two hours later by someone who thought his design was better even when i dont really agreed with that
14:03:22  <Thorinbur> dont remember who it was, and dont want to point fingers but it makes it pointless. This server is out of my league and i think I am quite good at building.
14:03:34  <Thorinbur> So i just come here to maybe learn something
14:03:43  <Thorinbur> look aroun , se some crazy designs
14:03:59  <V453000> just try to build stuff again.
14:04:09  <Mark> the only way is to just build stuff really...
14:04:14  <V453000> if you think you failed that horribly the first time, just fix the issues from the first time
14:04:21  <Thorinbur> I am trying to highlight the point
14:04:22  <Mark> just start of with a SLH or something, ask someone to guide you through it
14:04:32  <Thorinbur> Now look at someone who is new to coop
14:04:40  <Mark> everyone was new at some point
14:05:10  <Mark> although i admit it gets harder and harder to get to coop level as time progresses
14:05:43  <V453000> nothing to do with that
14:06:07  <V453000> there also is stable server nowadays where people learn basics, but I dont think it is a good example as you learn _much_ faster here
14:06:23  <Mark> what might be good is to get a "real" sandbox where people can just build stuff
14:06:29  <Thorinbur> you are talking about welcome server?
14:06:30  <Mark> training, sort of
14:06:48  <V453000> I think that would just be against the point of PS being totally public
14:07:00  <V453000> nobody ever got screamed at or offended for building for the first time and trying
14:07:02  <V453000> everyonge gets help
14:07:19  <Mark> i dont mean people would need a certain level to enter the PS
14:07:20  <Thorinbur> I never said that. Comunity is friendly
14:07:24  <V453000> being instatnly accepted to the "proper" environment is better I think
14:07:24  <Mark> just training for confidence
14:07:26  <Thorinbur> but you feel small
14:07:45  <V453000> yeah, sure but training they can do anywhere and send you savegame if they _want_
14:07:56  <V453000> but people will rather say it is too hard :)
14:08:04  <Mark> yes but people are much less likely to actually give feedback
14:08:11  <Mark> because to have to download the savegame
14:08:21  <V453000> not really
14:08:31  <V453000> whenever there is a savegame posted here you get at least 3 people responding
14:08:38  <Mark> "live" training is much more effecient than saying "you have to change this" "you have to double that signal" "that bridge is not in sync"
14:08:47  <V453000> true
14:08:58  <Mark> yes but shuttling savegames back and forth takes way more time than live building and chat
14:09:02  <V453000> but I think when you have a wiki which says absolute basic what should do what, doing it on PS is good enough
14:09:07  <V453000> yeah, true
14:09:39  <Mark> yes, but as Thorinbur said, only the first part of the game we really build stuff, the rest is just improving really
14:09:58  <Mark> and as a new player i wouldnt feel confident building a SLH on a busy ML halfway through the game, i imagine
14:10:06  <Thorinbur> you have small window of time when the game is on entry leel
14:10:20  <V453000> that is true
14:11:50  <V453000> L_R games are usually great for something like that
14:12:02  <Mark> having some empty map where players can just build stuff and recieve feedback would probably be good
14:12:25  <Mark> yeah... LR BBHs arent quite the same as LL_RR ones though
14:12:39  <Thorinbur> Maybe server with faster changing maps
14:12:55  <Thorinbur> where game dont progress to LLLL5RRRR
14:13:08  <Mark> that beats the purpose of building the most insane networks
14:13:21  <V453000> sure, would have to be separate from ps
14:13:35  <Mark> yeah, thats what we got the welcome server for, sort of
14:13:40  <Mark> rotates much faster
14:13:50  <V453000> yes, kind of
14:13:51  <Thorinbur> never actually been there
14:13:52  <Mark> and especially if you coop with 2 people you can still build quite a big network
14:14:08  <V453000> yes
14:14:11  <Mark> check it out, there are some pretty good builders around usually
14:14:19  <Thorinbur> oh, so thats what it is
14:14:22  <Mark> maps rotate way faster
14:14:37  <Thorinbur> I did just that lately on some public server
14:14:45  <Thorinbur> i left it thou because of griefers flooding the map
14:14:55  <Mark> wont get that here
14:14:55  <V453000> well that doesnt happen at our welcome server
14:15:11  <Thorinbur> I am sure it doesnt
14:15:20  <V453000> it does occasionally, but that is very rare
14:15:27  <Mark> we're more than happy to ban someone and load an autosave if it does
14:15:51  <Thorinbur> good thing is there is always someone around who can do that
14:16:08  <Mark> #openttdcoop.stable is the irc channel
14:16:17  <Thorinbur> on the server I was guy was checking out the server once a day so...
14:17:57  <Thorinbur> of course the server IP is not on the wiki
14:18:17  <Mark> join #openttdcoop.stable
14:18:47  <V453000> thinking about the sandbox, I think it would sooner or later basically become an equivalent of the stable ... I guess the general idea would be have shitload of money and some land to build in. But who wants to just build LL_RR hub and not send trains there
14:19:06  <V453000> idk
14:19:37  <Mark> people might, just for training purposes
14:19:45  <Mark> especially if they can recieve feedback on it
14:20:31  <V453000> I guess
14:20:31  <Mark> wtf... how can i be using 2gigs of memory running irc, ottd and firefox?
14:21:07  <V453000> I have above 4gb permanently used without actually doing anything :D
14:21:27  <V453000> well I have a few programs used but still
14:21:30  <Mark> yes, but i got litteraly nothing running
14:21:37  <Mark> and it used to work fine
14:22:05  <Thorinbur> I have 68% used form my 4Gigs
14:22:27  <Mark> i used to run at 400mb
14:22:49  <Mark> all the processes in task manager add up to about 250
14:23:17  <Thorinbur> I think it is Windows fault. You know how much memory and disk space windows takes?
14:23:38  <Mark> windows xp?
14:23:40  <Mark> not that much
14:23:51  <Thorinbur> wrong
14:23:52  <Mark> and as i said, it's been fine for like 5 years
14:24:00  <Thorinbur> any windows will take as much as it finds :)
14:25:41  <Thorinbur> I have 4 versions of OpenTTD installed in my system
14:25:50  <Thorinbur> 3 of them pinned to taskBar
14:26:11  <Thorinbur> non of them is the one that is being run on the welcome server. damn :)
14:26:14  <Thorinbur> need 5th one
14:26:58  <Thorinbur> And i have two portable versions on my pendrives:)
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15:24:58  <Chris_Booth> It's friday and 36 mins left of work!
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15:52:57  <Webster> Hi! From all your Coop Friends!
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17:06:16  <Chris_Booth[ph]> Hi
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17:29:26  <Tray> !password
17:29:26  <PublicServer> Tray: croons
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18:59:49  <Ryton> !password
18:59:49  <PublicServer> Ryton: croons
19:00:46  <Ryton> should have stayed tneo ;-)
19:00:57  <PublicServer> *** Ryton has left the game (connection lost)
19:00:59  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
19:01:20  <Ryton> !password
19:01:20  <PublicServer> Ryton: croons
19:01:25  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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19:01:40  <tneo> you want to build Ryton ?
19:02:01  <PublicServer> <Ryton> no, just looking :-)
19:02:11  <PublicServer> <Ryton> haven't been here in a while
19:02:15  <PublicServer> <Ryton> so much has change
19:02:17  <PublicServer> <Ryton> d
19:06:53  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
19:06:53  <PublicServer> <V453000> hi
19:06:55  <PublicServer> <Ryton> can someone explain me what is the advantage of using exactly 2.5 TL long feeders?
19:06:55  <PublicServer> *** V453000 joined the game
19:06:59  <PublicServer> <Ryton> hi there
19:07:05  <PublicServer> <Ryton> you'd like to build, I assume? :-)
19:07:15  <PublicServer> <V453000> yes they have 4 wagons which is exactly half of TL5 train with 8 wagons
19:07:18  <PublicServer> <V453000> no not really
19:07:28  <PublicServer> <V453000> have stuff to be done
19:07:38  <PublicServer> <Ryton> well, the transfer station has excess ore waiting :;p
19:07:52  <PublicServer> <Ryton> so that defeats the purpose imho :-)
19:07:58  <PublicServer> <V453000> just because the pickup trains dont suffice
19:08:05  <PublicServer> <V453000> I dont think there is any purpose in the end
19:08:19  <PublicServer> <Ryton> then you can as well make them TL3, no?
19:08:25  <PublicServer> <V453000> you dont really have to care if trains in station have 0/50/100% or any other number
19:08:31  <PublicServer> <V453000> doesnt matter in my opinion
19:08:57  <PublicServer> <V453000> with some SRNW it of course would to have the cargoes equal of dummy/picku ptrains but with normal full load transfer station I dont think it makes any difference
19:09:08  <PublicServer> <Ryton> ok, thought so
19:09:32  <PublicServer> <Ryton> thats why I asked (I could have been wrong offcourse)
19:09:38  <PublicServer> <V453000> how do you like the game? :)
19:09:52  <PublicServer> <V453000> I mean ... you said stuff changeed, I wondered what do you mean by that
19:09:59  <PublicServer> <Ryton> I read the chat, so I knew I could expect a massive game:p
19:10:07  <PublicServer> <V453000> xD
19:10:10  <PublicServer> <Ryton> bit many oil/goods trains
19:10:25  <PublicServer> <V453000> game with rigs enabled ... :>
19:11:07  <PublicServer> <Ryton> I think I agree with  ... idk who said it... about PS games getting complex squickly
19:11:13  <PublicServer> <Ryton> quickly*
19:11:20  <PublicServer> <V453000> thats possible
19:11:23  <PublicServer> <Ryton> after your sunday game, maybe a larger map with less TF? :-)
19:11:39  <PublicServer> <V453000> how would a larger map help?
19:11:42  <PublicServer> <Ryton> then the average linecount will be lower
19:11:52  <PublicServer> <Ryton> or more space to add SLH's
19:11:54  <PublicServer> <V453000> hm, possibly
19:12:00  <PublicServer> <Ryton> therefore, easier for newbies such as myself ;)-)
19:12:18  <PublicServer> <V453000> but yes could do something like that
19:12:40  <PublicServer> <Ryton> cause a SLH people like me can build, or attempt to
19:12:43  <PublicServer> <Ryton> or even a simple BBH
19:12:57  <PublicServer> <Ryton> but expanding a 3x3 BBH to 4x4 is work for the elite ;-)
19:13:11  <PublicServer> <Ryton> so if you have like 10-20small  SLH's or BBHs
19:13:22  <PublicServer> <Ryton> chanses are bigger that the small upgrades are required
19:13:41  <PublicServer> <V453000> depends really
19:13:43  <PublicServer> <Ryton> but it'll be less interesting for the pros then, I'm afriad
19:13:53  <PublicServer> <Ryton> maybe 2 different levels could be interesting
19:13:55  <PublicServer> <V453000> if you build the BBH yourself, expanding usually isnt that hard as you understand it well
19:14:05  <PublicServer> <Ryton> one super busy area (like centre ring with massive BBHs
19:14:12  <PublicServer> <Ryton> and some less dense areas aroudn it?
19:14:34  <PublicServer> <Ryton> I disagree, V
19:14:44  <PublicServer> <Ryton> if it is not expandable, you'll have a hard time
19:14:51  <PublicServer> <Ryton> evne if you understand your build :p
19:14:53  <PublicServer> <V453000> wasnt talking about expandability
19:15:00  <PublicServer> <V453000> but if youu yourself build it
19:15:14  <PublicServer> <V453000> it should be easier for you to expand it than expanding stuff of someone else
19:15:33  <PublicServer> <Ryton> depends ;-)
19:15:47  <PublicServer> <Ryton> if the other person builds less chaotic hubs, no :P
19:16:18  <PublicServer> <Ryton> or SLH's at least
19:16:24  <PublicServer> <Ryton> maybe with BBH's you are right
19:16:42  <PublicServer> <V453000> SLHs are easy to expand
19:16:48  <PublicServer> <V453000> with exceptions of course, but...
19:16:55  <PublicServer> <Ryton> IF they are made expandable :p
19:17:01  <PublicServer> <Ryton> which they should, I know :p
19:17:12  <PublicServer> <V453000> it doesnt have to look expandable to others
19:17:22  <PublicServer> <V453000> BBH 04 was 3 lines from each side in the beginning
19:17:24  <PublicServer> <Ryton> but, let me take BBH02 as an example
19:17:38  <PublicServer> <V453000> now it has 5 in two directions and when others wanted to upgrade it they almost started nuking it
19:17:44  <PublicServer> <Ryton> wont be easy to expand it, but it looks more regular/easy than e.g. your BBH04 :p
19:18:02  <PublicServer> <V453000> yes it is very standard
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19:18:12  <mfb-> hi
19:18:15  <PublicServer> <V453000> hi
19:18:31  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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19:19:00  <PublicServer> <Ryton> but understanding the hub is the first step, about that I agree
19:19:11  <tneo> it is true PS games turn complex rather quickly, but that is because we're doing this for several years already so there is a certain level of knowledge around
19:19:14  <PublicServer> <Ryton> if you build it yourself, you should understand it (normally  ;-)
19:19:40  <mfb-> no :p
19:19:58  <PublicServer> <mfb> well, the basic idea of course
19:20:00  <PublicServer> <Ryton> it is not a prob for me, tneo. but like "someone" mentioned: you really have to be here at the right time in the week to contribute at your level, if it is relatively low :))
19:20:13  <tneo> uhu
19:20:14  <PublicServer> <mfb> you can always add primaries
19:20:16  <PublicServer> <Ryton> in these type of games ... else you can look and learn, but not build too much anymore
19:20:19  <tneo> I agree
19:20:21  <PublicServer> <mfb> or build some stuff at SLs
19:20:21  <PublicServer> <V453000> that is true, the original building is just like 2 days usually
19:20:32  <PublicServer> <Ryton> but no problem for me
19:20:42  <PublicServer> <mfb> if you want to build your own BBH, you need the right timing
19:20:48  <PublicServer> <Ryton> like I said: this is more interesting for the top part of the players :-) and these are the most active
19:20:54  <PublicServer> <mfb> SLHs are a bit better
19:20:58  <PublicServer> <Ryton> so the game delivers what the average player wants => good :-)
19:21:28  <PublicServer> <Ryton> and I like watching as much as trying to build (which takes painstakingly much time ;-))
19:22:06  <mfb-> in my first games here, I just build small stuff - no idea where the first hub was
19:22:20  <mfb-> was fine
19:22:20  <PublicServer> <V453000> I already thought about this "problem" but it is hard to do anything about it really. One of the options guys mentioned was to have an extra sandbox where new players could just build a lot of stuff.
19:22:36  <tneo> or move more players to pro
19:22:44  <PublicServer> <V453000> yes that was the other thing I thought about
19:22:58  <PublicServer> <V453000> but I think even moving people to pro-zone will not reduce the level of public server
19:23:04  <PublicServer> <Ryton> it doesnt need a solution, PS shouldnt be changed at all imho. just make a plan which gives opportunities
19:23:07  <PublicServer> <V453000> that just wont happen, people will build here the same way
19:23:09  <PublicServer> <Ryton> many SLH's, more small BBH's :-)
19:23:19  <PublicServer> <V453000> yes :)
19:23:22  <tneo> probably not, but gives people a change of joining and learning
19:23:39  <PublicServer> <V453000> I also think we should do more L_R games from start
19:23:41  <PublicServer> <Ryton> may be a faillure, but we can try, could be interesting
19:23:55  <PublicServer> <V453000> no, many hubs certainly isnt a failure
19:24:05  <mfb-> hmm
19:24:33  <mfb-> maybe plans which do not use the whole map to work can help
19:24:33  <PublicServer> <V453000> L_R takes a while to build up, and it is usually a lot of fun too
19:24:41  <mfb-> in that way, we have more parts to build later
19:24:44  <PublicServer> <Ryton> but add some very dense area, eg with town drop & factory close near eachother :p
19:24:50  <PublicServer> <Ryton> so there is a challenge too ;-)
19:24:51  <PublicServer> <V453000> hm not too sure about that
19:25:24  <mfb-> we can work on the 4th line through that mega hub while others can build a peaceful LL_RR BBH
19:25:39  <PublicServer> <V453000> 6way plan anyone? :D
19:25:50  <PublicServer> <Ryton> yeah mfb.but on a map like this, it is all 4+ now :-)
19:25:53  <mfb-> I didn't forget it ;)
19:25:59  <PublicServer> <Ryton> (or primaries)à
19:26:01  <mfb-> ryton: so what? ;)
19:26:13  <mfb-> oh, steel mill is still 3 in I think
19:26:24  <PublicServer> <V453000> factory too
19:26:26  <PublicServer> <Ryton> is that an offer? ;-)
19:26:28  <PublicServer> <mfb> and the southern line has a LL_RR part
19:26:46  <PublicServer> <Ryton> oh sorry, I should have done my homework more properly then :-)
19:26:56  <PublicServer> <Ryton> I see the end of 3rd there now
19:27:15  <PublicServer> <mfb> SLH07 was never expanded :)
19:27:50  <PublicServer> <Ryton> so BBH03 is 4 4 on one side, 4-3 on the other and 2 2 on last direction? :D
19:28:27  <PublicServer> <V453000> factory exit is 4 liens while entrance 3? :D
19:28:53  <PublicServer> <Ryton> better like this than other way around :p
19:28:59  <PublicServer> <V453000> not really
19:29:06  <PublicServer> <V453000> most trains that go in are full
19:29:18  <PublicServer> <V453000> so they are heavier
19:29:22  <PublicServer> <V453000> Probably
19:29:56  <PublicServer> <Ryton> so lower troughput (larger distance between trains) you mean?
19:32:27  <PublicServer> <V453000> w
19:32:30  <PublicServer> <V453000> when empty yes
19:32:38  <PublicServer> <V453000> ah vice versa nevermind
19:33:53  <PublicServer> *** Ryton has joined company #1
19:49:47  <mfb-> I think it is quite easy
19:50:04  <mfb-> Mark noticed some jams at the steel/sawmill merge and upgraded its exit
19:50:37  <mfb-> the merge at BBH03 stacks trains sometimes
19:50:41  <mfb-> a 4th would be useful
19:50:56  <mfb-> and a real mess to add at the pickups
19:51:13  <PublicServer> <mfb> unless you make it the dirty way
19:54:15  <PublicServer> <V453000> it is dirty already so hack as you want I would say :D
19:55:16  <Thorinbur> hey Ryton:) It was me that was talking about steep joining curve on Public server
19:55:18  <Thorinbur> :)
19:57:52  <Ryton> ah yes
19:58:29  <Ryton> sorry I forgot it was you
20:04:20  <V453000> oil = black or mauve?
20:04:22  <V453000> dark mauve
20:04:33  <PublicServer> <V453000> rather black right
20:09:44  <PublicServer> *** Ryton has left the game (leaving)
20:14:56  <PublicServer> <mfb> M&M = Mark&Mazur?
20:18:08  <mfb-> wtf
20:21:07  <V453000> just fucking spam users
20:21:22  <V453000> they create account and want to post spam which they dont manage to
20:21:31  <mfb-> captcha for acc creating might help
20:21:44  <mfb-> but the name[number] thing is new
20:21:46  <V453000> dont tell me :)
20:22:38  <PublicServer> <Chris Booth> hi
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20:22:59  <mfb-> hi
20:23:01  <PublicServer> <Chris Booth> I don't speak germany, but I can if you like
20:23:32  <mfb-> how can you "speak a country" at all?
20:23:44  <PublicServer> <Chris Booth> lol
20:23:55  <mfb-> :p
20:24:04  <mfb-> why german?
20:24:08  <PublicServer> <Chris Booth> I meant "I don't speak germany, but I can if you like"
20:24:09  <V453000> dafuq :-D
20:24:12  <PublicServer> <Chris Booth> why not
20:24:29  <mfb-> well, I don't have a problem with that :p
20:24:49  <PublicServer> <Chris Booth> Generaly I salg the french off
20:25:01  <mfb-> french is evil
20:25:29  <V453000> french is ... lets not be politically incorrect
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20:26:49  <Chris_Booth> I get annoyed by the french, they are racist yet have a half Hungarian president
20:26:57  <Chris_Booth> and his wife is Italian
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20:29:13  <V453000> well one cant be too surprised with the amount of arabic-trouble etc there
20:29:25  <valhallasw> of course, all the french are the same
20:30:21  <mfb-> as with all who are different from you in some way :D
20:32:45  <Tray> !password
20:32:45  <PublicServer> Tray: totals
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20:42:16  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Maraxus & me.
20:44:20  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Looking at it, there's still a litle flaw in Maraxus' overflow there, the signal after the bridge should be one tile more north
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23:38:18  <Hazzard> Hey
23:38:59  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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23:39:07  <Hazzard> Hello
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