Log for #openttdcoop on 30th October 2014:
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01:16:49  *** liq3 has joined #openttdcoop
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02:22:26  <Hazzard> !players
02:22:26  <coopserver> Hazzard: The server is empty, noone is connected. Feel free to remedy this situation
02:22:28  <Hazzard> !date
02:22:28  <coopserver> Jul 15 2286
02:22:30  <Hazzard> !vehicles
02:22:30  <coopserver> Hazzard: Total vehicles per type: Rail: 676, Road: 0, Water: 0, Air: 0
02:27:56  *** irolldice has joined #openttdcoop
02:28:02  <irolldice> good day
02:29:16  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
02:52:27  <Hazzard> Hello
02:53:05  <irolldice> how's it going
02:53:13  <Hazzard> good, you?
02:53:34  <irolldice> just dandy
02:54:51  <irolldice> trying to figure out yeti still
02:54:54  <irolldice> new to it as of today
02:55:00  <irolldice> on the welcome server playing around
02:56:00  <Hazzard> It is quite tricky
02:56:11  <Hazzard> takes some getting used to
02:56:17  <irolldice> i'm just having a hard time getting yeti production to increase
02:56:26  <irolldice> as that seems to drive everything else
03:21:59  <irolldice> what's the strategy for yeti
03:22:12  <irolldice> delivery several yet stations to one cowpig station?
03:22:18  <irolldice> to start?
03:22:45  <Hazzard> Yeti workers is where to start
03:22:57  <Hazzard> It doesn't really matter where you deliver them, IMO
03:23:31  <Hazzard> also, the welcome server IRC channel is at #openttdcoop.stable
03:24:18  <irolldice> should i be there instead of here
03:27:00  <Hazzard> It's not a big deal, I'm always in both
03:37:33  <irolldice> do you know about server administration
03:39:22  <Hazzard> kinda, what do you mean?
03:46:21  <irolldice> i've had a vanilla server running for years
03:46:29  <irolldice> on a dedicated linux box
03:46:36  <irolldice> and i'm just now getting into newgrfs and such
03:46:52  <irolldice> and i'm learning all of the console commands to get them to work
03:47:02  <irolldice> do you know about that part?
03:47:47  <Hazzard> no, not really
03:48:26  <Sylf> what do you need to know about newgrf?
03:48:27  <Webster> Read the Quickstart - #openttdcoop Wiki - (again, try !grf)
03:48:28  <irolldice> it just seems like a hassle to go to the console, find the grr i want, download it
03:48:43  <irolldice> then go to the command line, open the tar, mv the grf
03:48:46  <irolldice> then edit the config
03:48:53  <irolldice> like, there isn't an easier way?
03:49:07  <irolldice> and what about updating? do i have to do it all manually when upgrades come out?
03:49:14  <Sylf> just upload the grfs you have on your local PC
03:49:24  <irolldice> i'm on a mac
03:49:25  <Sylf> also, make the map locally, and upload that as well
03:49:30  <Sylf> doesn't matter
03:49:31  <irolldice> i like random maps
03:49:38  <irolldice> random seed
03:49:44  <irolldice> making maps is too much of a hassle?
03:49:49  <irolldice> unless there's something i don't know
03:49:51  <Sylf> so make a map locally with a random seed
03:50:08  <irolldice> can't i have the server generate it with a random seed upon newgame
03:50:28  <Sylf> Like on this server or welcome server, someone always make a map locally and uploads it
03:50:53  <irolldice> my server resets daily
03:50:54  <Sylf> NewGRF is the hard part
03:50:59  <irolldice> i don't like making maps
03:51:00  <irolldice> =\
03:51:09  <irolldice> i just want something fresh to be auto generated
03:51:11  <Sylf> why so often?
03:51:15  <irolldice> idk
03:51:20  <irolldice> how often do you guys reset
03:51:31  <Sylf> this server - every 3-8 weeks
03:51:36  <Sylf> welcome server - every 3-5 days
03:52:03  <Sylf> and we hand pick newgrf for each map
03:52:15  <Sylf> and randomly pick climate as well, including toyland
03:52:35  <Sylf> different industries, different buildings, different trains
03:52:43  <Sylf> all kinds of variety
03:52:57  <irolldice> if i want the YETI grf on my server
03:53:05  <irolldice> what do i need to go with it, just NUTS?
03:53:07  <irolldice> for trains
03:53:07  <irolldice> ?
03:53:12  <irolldice> and purr?
03:53:16  <Sylf> whatever train you want.
03:53:22  <Sylf> don't load purr.
03:53:35  <irolldice> nuts includes that automatically doesn't it?
03:53:48  <Sylf> after a certain version of nuts, yes.
03:54:04  <Sylf> If you decide to go nostalgic mode and load NUTS 0.0.1, then it won't have purr
03:54:34  <irolldice> well i just downloaded whatever the latest one was
03:54:39  <irolldice> i just downloaded it right now
03:54:41  <irolldice> from he console
03:54:58  <Sylf> NUTS just is a train set that fits our playing style the best, so we use it the most.  but many train sets can support YETI
03:55:26  <irolldice> can the default?
03:55:38  <Sylf> no
03:55:48  <Sylf> default train set can't refit, period.
03:56:02  <irolldice> oh
03:56:05  <Sylf> but OpenGFX+ train set can
03:56:08  <irolldice> okay
03:56:18  <irolldice> i want a super basic train set
03:56:22  <irolldice> like the default
03:56:45  <irolldice> i am going to come back to openttdcoop often because i like to learn from the building style
03:56:53  <irolldice> but there's honestly way too many trains for me to even want to read into
03:57:00  <Sylf> don't learn on welcome server.
03:57:11  <Sylf> that server has too many inconsistent styles
03:57:43  <Sylf> welcome server is for trying things out of just to kill time
03:57:45  <irolldice> should i use openGFX+ and purr?
03:57:59  <Sylf> purr is strictly optional
03:58:12  <Sylf> you can use purr or any other universal rails
03:58:21  <irolldice> i like purr
03:58:25  <irolldice> i like the colors
03:58:32  <Sylf> or nothing at all and don't give easy way to upgrade from rail to monorail to maglev
03:58:40  <irolldice> i think it's a good choice for my server
03:58:53  <irolldice> i just need to find a good train set that will match well
03:58:56  <irolldice> to yeti and purr
04:01:46  <irolldice> woops
04:01:57  <irolldice> i just did package 1904 and it seems i have no trains now
04:02:08  <irolldice> where is there documentation on packages
04:02:41  <Sylf> packages?
04:04:10  <irolldice> newgrfs
04:04:19  <irolldice> do you update packages using the console?
04:04:22  <irolldice> because that
04:04:30  <irolldice> that's what i'm doing and it seems terribly inefficient
04:04:55  <Sylf> um... what?
04:05:02  <irolldice> like the console
04:05:24  <irolldice> i have a dediacated linux server running
04:05:27  <Sylf> Like I said. we build maps locally, including newgrfs.
04:05:34  <irolldice> do you go on the teamspeak?
04:05:40  <Sylf> We don't manage newgrfs manually like that.
04:05:45  <Sylf> I don't use TS.
04:05:53  <irolldice> i see what you do then
04:05:56  <irolldice> you load a scenario
04:06:03  <irolldice> and whatever is loaded into that scenario is loaded
04:06:07  <irolldice> into the server
04:06:10  <irolldice> when you run it
04:06:10  <Sylf> We load fresh .sav files
04:06:28  <irolldice> which includes all the grfs that were enabled on the client when it was created
04:06:37  <Sylf> We just make sure that the NewGRFs used in that .sav is also on the server.
04:06:46  <irolldice> got it
04:07:17  <Sylf> Because we swap out different newGRFs all the time, it's much easier done that way than trying to manage stuff via console
04:09:25  <Hazzard> Doesn't SOAP manage the newGRFs?
04:09:28  <irolldice> right
04:09:43  <irolldice> what is a good suggestion for a transit that has universal waggons
04:09:48  <irolldice> and not too many crazy trains
04:09:59  <irolldice> nuts has way too many for my taste
04:10:02  <Sylf> NUTS is the only set with universal waggons
04:10:12  <irolldice> oh
04:10:18  <Sylf> turn on vehicle expiration
04:11:50  <Hazzard> Nuts isn't the only set with universal wagons ..?
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04:14:08  <irolldice> okay
04:14:21  <irolldice> i just loaded opengfx-trains, purr and yeti
04:14:27  <Sylf> Doesn't SOAP manage the newGRFs? <-- our SOAP downloads any new contents from bananas
04:14:53  <Sylf> but we don't use it to really manage newgrfs
04:15:12  <Hazzard> so it updates existing newGRFs?
04:15:47  <Sylf> not even that
04:16:23  <Sylf> it just queries all available downloadable contents list, and download anything that hasn't been downloaded previously
04:16:44  <Hazzard> It literally downloads EVERYTHING? lol
04:17:06  <Sylf> yes.  scenarios, heightmaps, game scripts, AIs, everything
04:17:13  <Sylf> as far as I can tell.
04:22:25  <irolldice> i think i'm sticking with opengfx+ trains, yeti and purr
04:22:37  <irolldice> sound like a good combo?
04:22:46  <o11c> I really want to see how YETI gets played on this server
04:23:03  <irolldice> on the one i just mentioned?
04:23:08  <irolldice> on mine i mean?
04:23:16  <Sylf> I want to complete 0.1.0 of yeti before loading it here
04:23:26  <o11c> okay
04:23:43  <o11c> I also want to see a passenger game
04:23:48  <irolldice> whoah
04:24:08  <irolldice> why does yeti on openttdcoop load in 5 stages, but on mine it loads in 6
04:24:09  <o11c> seen plenty of standard cargo games, and that one SRNW game
04:24:21  <Sylf> it's not yeti.
04:24:23  <Sylf> it's the train set.
04:24:29  <irolldice> jeeeeeze
04:24:35  <irolldice> i guess i have to go with nuts
04:24:36  <irolldice> ?
04:24:45  <irolldice> that's something else i liked about coop
04:24:50  <irolldice> was the 5 stage loading
04:24:50  <Hazzard> that's not a big difference?
04:24:54  <Sylf> different trains have different loading time, even within 1 train set
04:25:15  <Sylf> default train set loads 5 unit of cargo per "turn"
04:25:31  <Sylf> and different wagon has different capacity, up to 37 units on some maglev ones
04:25:48  <Sylf> those take 7 or 8 turns for loading/unloading
04:26:01  <irolldice> hm
04:26:09  <irolldice> the ones i was playing with on the welcome server
04:26:11  <Sylf> nuts - it varies 2 to 10, depending on trains
04:26:13  <irolldice> everything was 5 stage
04:26:23  <irolldice> i was using the universal stage 3 trains
04:26:26  <irolldice> or whatever
04:26:37  <irolldice> every cargo i have there is like 20,40,60,80,100
04:26:54  <Sylf> large ships - slow, chameleon - faster, but still slow, maglev - very fast, ducks - damn fast, 2 stages.
04:27:33  <Sylf> you play with one train type everywhere, and you'll only get to see one characteristic of the train set
04:28:36  <irolldice> well there's soo much to see in nuts
04:28:40  <irolldice> it was overwhelming
04:28:47  <irolldice> i found one thing that worked and stuck with it
04:28:51  <irolldice> because i was new to yeti also
04:28:59  <Sylf> yes, it's a good way to start
04:29:40  <irolldice> what is loading speed
04:29:44  <irolldice> is higher number or lower better
04:29:46  <Sylf> nuts was built to fit many playing styles used here at coop, so there are trains with different characteristics, including the loading time
04:29:50  <irolldice> is that the number of stages?
04:30:01  <Sylf> it's unit of cargo loaded per stage
04:30:07  <Sylf> per wagon
04:30:17  <irolldice> so higher is better
04:30:27  <irolldice> or depends on the ratio of speed to capacity
04:30:38  <Sylf> yes, capacity matters.
04:30:40  <irolldice> got it, the ones i was using has 7 speed
04:30:46  <irolldice> and 35 capacity = 5 stages
04:31:06  <irolldice> what does it mean when it says 4 (x2)
04:31:19  <irolldice> does that mean 8? or is there a reason for having it separated like that
04:31:28  <Sylf> those are 2 wagons attached per purchase unit
04:31:59  <Sylf> maglev wagons, for example, loads and unloads in 3 turns
04:32:06  <Sylf> stages
04:37:00  <irolldice> what are the numbers next to the engine sprites
04:37:03  <irolldice> in the bay
04:37:08  <irolldice> in the purchase window*
04:37:14  <Sylf> generation numbers
05:28:08  <irolldice> i just discovered non-blocking terminus stations
05:28:16  <irolldice> pretty sure they're the greatest things ever invented
05:37:35  <Hazzard> what do you mean?
05:38:06  <irolldice> wanna jump on my server and see
05:38:50  <Hazzard> sorry, I'm busy
05:38:51  <Sylf> non-blocking terminus is the style of terminus station used since about PSG200
05:38:53  <irolldice>
05:39:01  <irolldice> it's cool as
05:39:16  <irolldice> i've always used blocking terminus, i guess
05:39:22  <irolldice> like 4 station tracks with the X
05:39:34  <Sylf> it's cool, but it requires a large flat land
05:39:36  <irolldice> i came across non-blocking though, and it's changed my life
05:39:52  <irolldice> it's even balanced
05:39:58  <irolldice> it's sooooooo cool.
05:40:02  <irolldice> :)
05:41:39  <irolldice> i'm too excited about this game right now
05:42:05  <irolldice> t
05:42:45  <Sylf> at least it's a useful and effective design even today, unlike some other constructs that excites other people
05:42:54  <Sylf> like cycrotron
05:42:59  <Sylf> cyclo*
05:43:45  <irolldice> what's that
05:43:50  <irolldice> can you link a screenshot
05:43:52  <irolldice> or something?
05:44:00  <Sylf> sure
05:44:02  <Sylf>
05:44:06  <irolldice> >___>
05:44:28  <Sylf> it's better not to see or learn it
05:44:45  <irolldice> that looks cool AF
05:44:58  <irolldice> what is its downside
05:45:03  <irolldice> it looks super cool
05:45:14  <Sylf> ineffective and it's huge
05:46:08  <irolldice>
05:46:08  <Webster> Title: OpenTTD Cyclotron with waiting bays, Length: 18s, Views: 949, Likes: 3
05:46:21  <irolldice> look at this one though
05:46:23  <Hazzard> oh god
05:46:36  <Sylf> someone made a video of it?
05:46:41  <Sylf> that's an eyecancer
05:46:47  <irolldice> watch it!
05:46:50  <irolldice> it looks SOO COOL
05:46:52  <Sylf> NO
05:46:56  <Sylf> I refuse.
05:47:03  <irolldice> and the name is awesome!
05:47:10  <irolldice> cycloctron
05:47:13  <irolldice> i love it
05:47:15  <irolldice> i'm going to use it
05:47:20  <irolldice> allot, probably on the welcome server
05:47:37  <Sylf> don't.
05:47:43  <irolldice> >:D
05:47:43  <Sylf> Unless you want to look like a noob.
05:48:11  <irolldice> i don't understand why it is inefficient
05:48:13  <irolldice> for mergers
05:48:17  <Sylf> if you want to scream that you're a noob, then by all means, use it. everywhere.
05:48:22  <irolldice> it keeps trains at full speed
05:48:30  <irolldice> i don't understand why that's bad
05:48:43  <irolldice> i got blasted on reddit i feel like for asking how to improve my waiting loop
05:48:52  <irolldice> why are full speed mergers so noob?
05:48:52  <Sylf> Sure, if only 3 trains use that side line.
05:48:55  <irolldice> i don't understand it
05:48:55  <Hazzard> When it's looping it only gives a chance to join once every cycle
05:49:09  <irolldice> but it will merge at full speed/?
05:49:15  <irolldice> which won't slow down your mainline
05:49:17  <Hazzard> which really conteracts any positive effects you may get from tha
05:49:21  <Sylf> By the time you have 10 trains, you have more trains than a cyclotron can handle.
05:49:29  <irolldice> i don't understand why that is worse than a merge that causes a slinky on your mainline
05:49:46  <irolldice> well hopefully your sideline merges before 10 trains backup at the merge
05:49:56  <irolldice> i mean, if it's taking that long to merge, your mainline is probably full
05:49:59  <Sylf> Build a proper size prio for the train set used
05:49:59  <Hazzard> I assume you have looked at priorities already?
05:50:08  <irolldice> i have looked at priorities
05:50:18  <Sylf> It's far more effective
05:50:30  <Hazzard> Especially if you train uses acceleration at all
05:50:46  <irolldice> this IS a priority merge, PLUS a waiting loop
05:50:50  <irolldice> several
05:51:08  <Sylf> Go ahead and use it a few times then.
05:51:27  <irolldice> i wish you guys used teamspeak
05:51:38  <irolldice> i have so many questions, and typing is so inefficient
05:51:44  <irolldice> and you guys know what you're talking about
05:51:50  <Sylf> I'd rather listen to music of my choice than strangers' voice
05:51:52  <irolldice> i want to shout like 1000 questions at you
05:52:00  <irolldice> at the same time
05:58:31  <Taede> shouting, the #1 way to make people stop listening to you
05:58:39  <irolldice> :(
05:58:43  <irolldice> but i'm so excited
06:02:38  <Hazzard> :)
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06:13:19  <irolldice> balanced roars beat non-blocking terminus stations hands down, don't they
06:13:23  <irolldice> roros*
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06:15:50  <Sylf> no
06:16:23  <irolldice> terminus are more efficient?
06:16:36  <Sylf> there's no single design that's more efficient than the other
06:16:43  <irolldice> there has to be?
06:16:48  <Sylf> if a station is underperforming, just expand more.
06:17:08  <Sylf> one style of station fits better than others in any given landscape
06:17:16  <Sylf> unless you're playng a flat map.
06:17:21  <irolldice> let's say we are
06:17:29  <Sylf> I don't.
06:17:48  <irolldice> flat map, non-blocking terminus can handle the most trains throughput per hour
06:17:55  <Sylf> If you wanna talk about flat land building, go to other place where people play in such environment
06:17:56  <irolldice> i'm willing to bet
06:18:12  <Sylf> trying to compare like that is pointless
06:18:19  <irolldice> why can't you just hypothesize with me
06:18:27  <scshunt> irolldice: do you mean in some fixed space?
06:18:36  <irolldice> well no
06:18:43  <Sylf> because I only care that the station works good enough for a given purpose
06:18:51  <scshunt> because if you have unlimited space, they both have unlimited throughput
06:18:56  <irolldice> obviously in a "real-world" scenario, one station will be better than the other due to space limitations
06:19:17  <irolldice> but if space weren't an issue and it was flat, non-blocking terminus stations i bet can handle more traffic
06:19:18  <irolldice> in and out
06:19:24  <Sylf> no
06:19:35  <Sylf> if 8 platforms aren't enough, add more platforms.
06:19:37  <Sylf> done.
06:19:59  <irolldice> but in a roro, do you not increase your signal gap with increased platforms?
06:20:05  <Sylf> It doesn't matter blocking or non-blocking terminus or ro-ro or whatever.
06:20:17  <irolldice> that becomes a non issue in non-blocking terminus stations
06:20:28  <Sylf> no matter what style you build, bigger structure comes with more overhead.
06:20:34  <Sylf> that's all there's to it.
06:20:54  <irolldice> i'm pretty sure that non-blocking terminus stations have no increased signal gap or anything with increased size
06:21:00  <Sylf> no one building style will fit all purpose
06:21:33  <irolldice> of course
06:21:39  <Sylf> terminus gets more complex as you get more platforms.
06:21:41  <irolldice> but the purpose changes mainly with space limitations
06:21:46  <irolldice> it gets bigger
06:21:47  <Sylf> By the time you have 30
06:21:53  <irolldice> not necessarily "more complex"
06:21:57  <irolldice> it just needs more space
06:22:04  <Sylf> 30-40 platforms, mixing and balancing on any terminus is a huge chore
06:22:16  <irolldice> but not if you have the space
06:22:23  <irolldice> it's balanced as it is, if it's built straight out
06:22:28  <Sylf> 30-40 platform ro-ro is super huge on other ways too
06:24:02  <irolldice> my terminus is failing me
06:24:07  <irolldice> i have a flaw
06:24:11  <irolldice> a big one
06:24:53  <irolldice> i don't understand where though
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06:49:44  <irolldice> do you understand how the cyclotron works
06:49:45  <irolldice> i don't get it
06:49:54  <irolldice> my trains don't utilize the waiting loops
06:49:59  <irolldice> they just go forward and sit at the light
07:07:55  <V453000> ._.
07:08:05  <V453000> hy
07:11:28  <irolldice> howdy
07:12:23  <V453000> wat up
07:12:30  <V453000> cyclotron is bad :P just get more waiting spots
07:12:35  <V453000> and better accelerating trains
07:12:55  <irolldice> i just want to understand how the waiting loops work
07:13:04  <irolldice> because when i tried them, my trains didn't use the loops
07:14:57  <V453000> screenshot plox :D
07:15:26  <irolldice> can i just give you a server address and you can see it live
07:16:20  <Sylf> oh
07:16:26  <Sylf> turn on the twoway eol
07:16:26  <V453000> sure
07:16:35  <irolldice> survivalcraft.hopto.or
07:16:36  <irolldice>
07:16:52  <irolldice> does two-way eol affect anything else that i should be aware of?
07:16:55  <irolldice> what does that do
07:17:05  <Sylf>
07:17:30  <V453000> what game version?
07:18:03  <irolldice> 1.4.4
07:18:16  <irolldice> yeti / purr / opengfx+ trains
07:18:39  <V453000> o_O
07:18:42  <V453000> purr but not nuts? :D
07:18:43  <V453000> ok
07:19:10  <irolldice> nuts is too nuts for me
07:19:16  <irolldice> hur hur hur
07:19:17  <V453000> why
07:19:25  <irolldice> too many trains, idk
07:19:30  <irolldice> i'm still just getting used to yeti
07:20:16  <V453000> seen nuts wiki?
07:20:21  <V453000> it exlains hwo to use the trains
07:20:30  <V453000> and if you use expiring vehicles, the useless ones disappear
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07:34:01  <V453000> irolldice: @@ABR07
07:34:02  <Webster> Advanced Building Revue 07: Stations at #openttdcoop -
07:36:47  <V453000> Sylf: 8bpp 5X is there :)
07:36:55  <Sylf> ok
07:41:54  <V453000> irolldice: other articles @@V
07:41:55  <Webster> User:V453000 - #openttdcoop Wiki -
07:42:01  <V453000> also good to read: @merge
07:42:04  <V453000> @merge
07:42:05  <Webster> Merging Tracks - #openttdcoop Wiki -
07:51:33  <V453000> @cl
07:51:33  <Webster> cl: Curve Length, mostly used to describe how big a curve must be to let pass trains with a certain TL at full speed, see also:
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13:02:11  <damalix> !password
13:02:11  <coopserver> damalix: finite
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19:11:47  <irolldice> sylf
19:11:57  <irolldice> are you loading a new map on the welcome server?
19:11:58  <Sylf> yes
19:12:04  <Sylf> yes
19:12:51  <irolldice> okay
19:13:28  <Sylf> and use #openttdcoop.stable channel for welcome server discussions
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19:57:31  <Maraxus> !password
19:57:31  <coopserver> Maraxus: arrive
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21:57:17  <korboll> !password
21:57:17  <coopserver> korboll: deemed
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22:57:46  <korboll> !password
22:57:46  <coopserver> korboll: boring
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23:50:48  <Werty> !password
23:50:48  <coopserver> Werty: matrix
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