Log for #openttdcoop on 20th December 2014:
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13:46:00  <britboy3456> !password
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13:56:03  <coopserver> <StarLite> o/
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14:14:22  <coopserver> <britboy3456> Oh hey star
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15:00:14  <eekee> test
15:00:30  <eekee> oh yay. still connected after a hub change
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15:05:00  <bg> !dl
15:05:00  <coopserver> bg: !download lin|lin64|osx|ottdau|source|win32|win64|win9x
15:05:01  <coopserver> bg:
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15:20:29  <Freddie> @quickstart
15:20:30  <Webster> Quickstart - #openttdcoop Wiki -
15:21:07  <Freddie> !help
15:21:07  <coopserver> Freddie:
15:24:11  <Freddie> anyone around? I have some noob questions regarding the articles on the wiki (;
15:25:11  <V453000> hi
15:25:32  <Freddie> hi (;
15:26:05  <Freddie> I'm currently trying the designs locally, but I was wondering about mainline stations
15:26:36  <Freddie> this article - - has some examples, but when the section about "terminus" starts it got me confused
15:26:49  <Freddie> all the terminus examples from this article use LR mainline
15:27:03  <Freddie> how do you connect that to anything "bigger"? like LLRR?
15:27:21  <Freddie> should there be 2 separate terminus stations, each connected to a L-R pair?
15:27:26  <Freddie> or maybe I'm missing something?
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15:28:45  <V453000> hm well that depends a lot
15:28:50  <V453000> lets see what we got
15:28:52  <V453000> !junctionary
15:28:59  <V453000> @junctionary
15:29:01  <V453000> asdf
15:29:32  <V453000> well this shows a lot of stations
15:29:34  <eekee> zxcv
15:29:38  <V453000> and this explains them
15:29:41  <V453000> @@ABR07
15:29:44  <V453000> @ABR07
15:29:45  <Webster> Advanced Building Revue 07: Stations at #openttdcoop -
15:29:56  <V453000> other than that, see savegames :)
15:30:26  <V453000> LL_RR can have many options, having one station per line is fine for drops, pickups are always best if any line can reach any platform
15:30:53  <Freddie> ok, another thing that I was wondering lately
15:31:00  <V453000> out with it :)
15:31:18  <Freddie> if I guild a mainline station in which any platform can be reached from any track - on input
15:31:31  <Freddie> does it make any sense to build a "mixer" at the output of the station?
15:31:48  <Freddie> the examples from the page suggest that it's not the case, but who knows [;
15:31:59  <Freddie> *guild=build (;
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15:34:57  <V453000> no, it does not
15:35:19  <V453000> it does not really make sense to make a "mixer" in front of a "per-line" set of stations either
15:35:42  <Freddie> yes, that's obvious
15:35:48  <V453000> well not entirely
15:36:04  <V453000> often people try to replace that for a proper full entrance with choices
15:36:05  <Freddie> this time I was wondering about a "typical" RoRo where you have one stations for all lines
15:36:26  <V453000> no matter :)
15:36:51  <V453000> with pickup stations often you can do some magic with overflows
15:37:01  <V453000>  @@ABR04 @@ABR08 @@ABR12
15:37:02  <Webster> Advanced Building Revue 04: Overflows at #openttdcoop -
15:37:03  <Webster> Advanced Building Revue 08: Overflows II at #openttdcoop -
15:37:04  <Webster> Advanced Building Revue 12: Overflows III at #openttdcoop -
15:37:17  <Freddie> I'm looking at the "welcome server" right now and I see such overflows there
15:37:23  <Freddie> with a depot
15:37:28  <V453000> that is likely :)
15:37:32  <Freddie> and a simple terminus with an x
15:38:12  <Freddie> but browsking through the savegames is problematic - usually they show the "final result", which I find really chaotic at times (;
15:38:15  <V453000> well sure those are basic ones, those wont help you with any biggerthroughput
15:38:54  <V453000> the final result is what matters most even for learning ... there is no real "process"
15:39:02  <Freddie> (;
15:39:05  <V453000> you just need to know what you want to do, and build it
15:39:22  <Freddie> that's the problem <:
15:39:39  <Freddie> there are so many options and not-so-much guidance
15:39:54  <Freddie> as I said - I'm trying that all locally in a singleplayer game
15:39:59  <V453000> well then build what you need in that spot :) from what you alerady know
15:40:18  <V453000> if it jams due to having one line of platforms too full, add choices
15:40:32  <V453000> if you leave space for everything, you can always fix stuff
15:40:38  <Freddie> and I just cannot decide how to build a smallest goods pickup station for a mainline (;
15:40:42  <V453000> fixing things by seeing the problems is very beneficial for you
15:40:45  <Freddie> the space is a problem - as usually
15:41:09  <Freddie> it pretty hard to fix stuff when it's "online", without sending all trains to depot
15:41:14  <V453000> then you probably didnt leave enough space  from the start :P
15:41:24  <Freddie> or maybe I'm assuming too much and that's not possible so not worth trying? <:
15:41:36  <V453000> that is part of the point, you should not rebuild but fix tiny things
15:41:47  <eekee> in the end i gave up and i enabled building while paused
15:41:52  <V453000> everything is probably worth trying :)
15:42:18  <V453000> well that is also an option if you arent confident enough, my point is that it doesnt matter how you do it but just to edit things as long as possible, not demolish-rebuild
15:43:12  <Freddie> you know how it is with these generated maps - the factory is really near the edge of the map, and when I try to have proper curves for TL5 everything gets really huge really fast
15:43:58  <Freddie> which is another thing I noticed in the junctionary on the page
15:44:04  <V453000> well, choose different factory XD
15:44:19  <Freddie> is there a consensus to ignore slowing down on hubs?
15:44:35  <V453000> anyway, you can use shorter curves if you use trains which allow it ... normally it would have to be just slow trains, with NUTS train set it can be trains which have tilt etc
15:44:40  <V453000> so you can have TL5 with CL1.5
15:44:42  <V453000> for example
15:45:22  <V453000> uhm not exactly, most (about everybody) builds full CL, without slowdowns. I say where they do less harm, they are ignorable
15:45:34  <Freddie> oh - I'm trying to change as little options as possible [; I just enable realistic acceleration and probably nothing more (; for now <:
15:48:30  <V453000> the default options are very, very bad
15:48:39  <V453000> trying not to change things isnt exactly helpful :P
15:48:56  <V453000> and NUTS can help you learn a LOT
15:48:58  <bg> !password
15:48:58  <coopserver> bg: charge
15:49:02  <V453000> seriously, CL is not really a big thing to learn
15:49:09  <V453000> just learn the system so things work
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15:50:04  <Freddie> I didn't say it was, but my "really small" SLH for TL5 and LLRR mainline is maybe 19x19 tiles - for me it's really huge (;
15:50:40  <coopserver> <Player> !name britgirl5678
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15:50:44  <V453000> then get NUTS and use SLUG trains
15:50:44  <coopserver> <britgirl5678> hi
15:50:49  <V453000> they never slow down in curves almost
15:50:54  <V453000> so, everything is smaller
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15:52:15  <coopserver> <britboy3456> o/
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15:54:00  <V453000> hihi
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15:55:07  <Freddie> there are almost no resources on the network about multiline mainlines (anything bigger than LLRR) other than openttdcoop's website (;
15:55:49  <V453000> well sure because everybody either joins openttdcoop, or stays noob :D
15:56:15  <Freddie> (;
15:57:03  <Freddie> there's just this steep learning curve to join openttdcoop (;
15:58:39  <V453000> I have to admit it is not exactly easy, but the welcome server is a great mid-step
15:58:55  <V453000> also I am currently writing an article about making exactly that step
15:59:06  <V453000> should make it easier for a lot of people to practice correctly and easily
15:59:49  <eekee> i imagine joining the welcome server is easier than i had it on my own.
16:00:03  <eekee> i mean when trying to make a really complex network
16:00:25  <V453000> being on the server is great, you can make something really,really big, but at the same time you get direct feedback from others, and there is tons of people who can actually teach you online
16:00:32  <V453000> playing in single player is great but slow
16:00:48  <eekee> yeah
16:01:02  <eekee> i had to work out all my junctions myself. headache!
16:01:29  <eekee> i've just started a new game; 2048^2 instead of 256, and nuts so i'll get slugs eventually :)
16:01:52  <V453000> I think 512*512 is the reasonable maximum for 1 company
16:02:12  <V453000> 256*256 is fun, but small for starters
16:02:13  <eekee> well, considering how i filled up a 256 over the years...
16:02:31  <V453000> 512 is four times bigger, that is a lot :)
16:03:38  <eekee> i've been playing the 256 for nearly 10 years now. this is a comparatively quiet corner
16:04:03  <Freddie> I'm trying to start slow, so I made a 1024x256 map, with a plan to have something simple like one mainline along the longer axis
16:04:20  <Freddie> with sidelines splitting out
16:05:10  <Freddie> my problem is that I really try to make everything perfect
16:05:24  <Freddie> so all the stations on the sideline are RoRo with CL5
16:05:28  <Freddie> each is pretty huge
16:05:36  <V453000> one long mainline is a great idea to start with Freddie
16:05:37  <eekee> my problem was i tried to deliver everything, and produce grew without limit :)
16:05:52  <V453000> and yes CL5 is not tiny
16:06:04  <Freddie> I've build my first SLH, I try to come up with some reasonable idea fo a mainline station
16:06:06  <V453000> @V
16:06:07  <Webster> User:V453000 - #openttdcoop Wiki -
16:06:10  <eekee> long map's a nice idea too. i've started a few like that, but... *shrug*
16:06:27  <Freddie> because currently I actually have most of the trains on a "backup" normal LR tracks
16:06:29  <eekee> heh, one of my long ones ended up being mostly ships
16:06:47  <V453000>
16:06:48  <V453000> see this
16:06:51  <V453000> it is my old save
16:07:01  <V453000> you can see how simple the concept can be
16:07:03  <V453000> and how big it can get
16:07:18  <V453000> note, it is very bad, the system just isnt there
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16:10:08  <V453000> wait that isnt it :D
16:10:09  <V453000> XD
16:10:13  <V453000> just another game
16:10:14  <V453000> hm
16:10:40  <V453000>
16:10:42  <V453000> this is good
16:10:45  <V453000> 1 ML example
16:10:48  <Freddie> good, because I cannot load it due to GRFs <:
16:11:23  <Freddie> yeah, the same problem with "stolentrees" GRF <:
16:11:59  <V453000> oh ffs
16:12:06  <V453000> sec :D am going to get them somewhere
16:13:27  <eekee> i need to start keeping a single grf dir for my different installs
16:13:28  <Webster> Read the Quickstart - #openttdcoop Wiki - (again, try !grf)
16:13:39  <V453000> uhm
16:13:43  <V453000> you ahve one in documents?
16:13:58  <V453000> unless you have a new config file at each install location
16:14:02  <V453000> which you would have to do manually
16:14:35  <V453000>
16:14:36  <V453000> stolen trees
16:14:47  <eekee> i have start scripts which make symlinks from ~/.openttd to one or other dir in /data/games/openttd :)
16:15:10  <V453000> how does that make a difference where it takes grfs from?
16:15:11  <Webster> Read the Quickstart - #openttdcoop Wiki - (again, try !grf)
16:15:32  <eekee> basically each install has a completely separate folder tree
16:16:16  <V453000> but why different configs?
16:16:50  <eekee> i'm running two different trunk versions (for coop & my own), and one chillpp
16:17:25  <eekee> it started with the chillpp being older than my former usual one.
16:17:27  <V453000> sure but you can have one config for all
16:17:48  <eekee> prolly not for chillpp but yeah...
16:17:57  <eekee> ok then
16:18:25  <V453000> even for that
16:18:41  <V453000> it will just add values and lines to the existing cfg
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16:18:58  <eekee> ah neat ^^
16:19:38  <Freddie> ok, it loads now (;
16:19:43  <V453000> good :)
16:20:13  <eekee> i'm gonna wander off; stomach's on fire
16:21:01  <eekee> that's cool that it'll just add values :)
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16:38:57  <Maraxus> !password
16:38:57  <coopserver> Maraxus: prints
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16:47:39  <Freddie> @V453000 - are you going to post your article about starting coop games in the ABR series or somewhere else?
16:47:40  <Webster> User:V453000 - #openttdcoop Wiki -
16:49:49  <V453000> on the blog yes
16:49:56  <V453000> idk if part of the ABR, doesnt matter much :)
16:50:21  <Freddie> I'm looking forward to reading it
16:52:16  <Freddie> BTW - the wiki says that the stolentrees GRF is part of the GRF pack (or I'm misreading it) - it's not..
16:52:38  <Freddie> there is only the winter version in the pack, not the one you sent me
16:54:08  <V453000> is is different version yes :)
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17:16:14  <britboy> !password
17:16:14  <coopserver> britboy: cosine
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17:30:34  <Freddie> OK, I'm wondering about what you said about the default options being very bad
17:30:55  <Freddie> do you have anything more on your mind other than listed here?
17:31:17  <Freddie> from what I see, there are actually not that many...
17:32:40  <Freddie> I'm still fighting in my mind about disabling breakdowns and servicing - building depots on the mainline, with the priority join, makes this stuff bigger too (; but as long as I remember, the breakdowns were there... <:
17:32:40  <V453000> @map
17:32:41  <Webster> Creating Maps at #openttdcoop -
17:32:47  <V453000> got article for that :P
17:32:49  <Freddie> @map
17:32:50  <Webster> Creating Maps at #openttdcoop -
17:33:12  <V453000> the breakdowns are quite stupid, just disable them if you want to learn
17:33:20  <V453000> with breakdowns it does not really matter what you do, everything can break
17:33:36  <V453000> so most of the things we do would not really be worth it with thm
17:33:39  <V453000> the
17:33:41  <V453000> m
17:33:42  <V453000> god :D
17:33:46  <V453000> THEM.
17:34:05  <Freddie> (;
17:34:21  <V453000> sadly the settings look different now
17:34:29  <V453000> but you can just read it and get some ideas
17:34:37  <Freddie> in new multiplayer games you don't build depots on the mainline too, right?
17:34:42  <V453000> and the settings are still called the same so you can query them
17:34:45  <V453000> @servicing
17:34:46  <Webster> Train Servicing and Autoreplace at #openttdcoop -
17:34:49  <Freddie> I've seen the PDF some time ago (;
17:34:52  <V453000> got an article for that :P
17:36:06  <Freddie> how long are you playing TTD?
17:36:09  <Freddie> or TT <:
17:36:39  <V453000> idk, about 6 years
17:36:54  <V453000> I dont really play as much for the last 2 years, and almost never in the last year though
17:37:23  <V453000> but, that is why I leave my articles behind me :P
17:37:36  <Freddie> got bored or just other stuff on your head?
17:38:22  <V453000> eh not exactly bored but lets admit it I tried about everything that this game can offer, and since I could not find more options in the game anymore, I started developing newGRFs
17:38:32  <V453000> NUTS was first which added a lot of nice functionality, now YETI
17:38:53  <V453000> it is amazing because I can create new possibilities in the game, and I really enjoy the process of creating them
17:39:12  <V453000> I am a 3D artist as a job so it also helps me practice for that
17:39:29  <V453000> and well, I also do not have that much time anymore :P
17:39:55  <V453000> when I play, I need at least 3 days STRAIGHT, only sleep to disturb it, to play a nice big game and have fun doing it
17:40:13  <V453000> making half-arsed small networks is not very enjoyable, and I dont really like playing alone in single player anymore
17:40:28  <V453000> the last effort I did in single-player as PZG2013 ... that I played for MONTHS :D
17:40:32  <V453000> @pzg2013
17:40:33  <Webster> Dont Try This At Home: ProZone Game 2013 at #openttdcoop -
17:40:43  <V453000> the results are also worth it XD
17:43:50  <Freddie> BTW - does the concept of SML get used often? I really like that idea, but some initial experiments and looking at one or two savegames shows that it doesn't work that well as it should );
17:44:09  <V453000> no, not really
17:44:15  <V453000> it is interesting, but extremely boring to play
17:44:23  <V453000> you just clone the splitter, and connect primaries
17:44:27  <V453000> but that is all you do
17:44:44  <V453000> usually the most fun is expanding things, hubs, stuff...
17:45:11  <V453000> especially after pzg2013 which is like the ultimate usage of SML, nobody seemed to be interested in playing such a game anymore
17:45:26  <V453000> there is one exception though, SML can be used to massive benefit in passenger games
17:45:32  <hylje> in a way, we beat openttd
17:45:40  <Freddie> the promise of SML are smaller hubs (; something I'd like to have in a single-player game <:
17:45:53  <eekee> i'm going passenger-heavy in my latest game
17:45:54  <V453000> that is bullshit
17:46:01  <V453000> SML never makes any hubs
17:46:06  <argoneus> SML?
17:46:12  <V453000> @sml
17:46:12  <Webster> sml: Shift Main Line, see also:
17:46:15  <hylje> isn't "no hub" the smallest hub?
17:46:32  <argoneus> eh
17:46:38  <V453000> brb 5 min
17:49:33  <Freddie> it seems much easier and smaller to connect sideline to only one track instead of 2 or more, with priorities, balancing and stuff...
17:50:05  <eekee> you end up with jams when a slow-moving train pulls in front of another
17:50:19  <hylje> there's ways to deal with that
17:50:37  <eekee> with high train density just a slowdown can turn into a jam
17:52:15  <V453000> anyway, what I wanted to say that there is one exception when SML can still be great and fit into a game plan perfectly - passenger games
17:52:39  <eekee> i'm planning to try a sort of priorities system with path signalling. i don't think it'll be smaller than presignal-based, but i'm hoping to avoid the race condition you can see in the tutorial where a train from the side line chooses the wrong path at the priority
17:53:02  <V453000> first used in psg 207, self regulation can abuse SML greatly
17:53:10  <V453000> I dont think that is going to work great eekee
17:53:33  <eekee> we'll see
17:53:45  <V453000> and if you have short priorities (which you should), trains never choose any "wrong path" they would get stuck in
17:54:01  <V453000> it is just about fixing things in the right places :) but priority as a tool is just fine
17:54:28  <eekee> they're as short as they can be in the tutorial
17:55:09  <V453000> @merging
17:55:13  <V453000> @mergers
17:55:17  <V453000> @merge
17:55:18  <Webster> Merging Tracks - #openttdcoop Wiki -
17:55:31  <eekee> it's a matter of timing. there's always a window when the sidline train's passed the first signal and chosen a path before the 2nd signal can go red
17:56:55  <V453000> that doesnt matter at all
17:56:58  <Freddie> btw - I know this is a stupid question - could you recommend a "concept" to learn building of huge networks in a single-player game? something like "build a L_L_R_R network, for primary pickups terminus, for all drops roro, for mainline stations use roro with balanded input" or maybe "build a loop network with 4 tracks, ..."?
17:57:03  <Freddie> sth easy to start (;
17:57:14  <V453000> if the train just stops for a few seconds and then joins the line, it is not an issue at all eekee
17:57:45  <V453000> not exactly Freddie ,but trying to make a long mainline without any other mainlines - and therefore no backbone hubs, is a great start
17:57:50  <eekee> ah i see. well, it'll matter if the trains don't accelerate fast
17:58:10  <V453000> well, use better trains? :D
17:58:22  <V453000> but sure you can still improve the acceleration e.g. by downhill
17:58:38  <V453000>
17:58:59  <V453000> note that there isnt even any priority in this screenshot
17:59:16  <V453000> if you give enough choices to everything, you dont need that
17:59:25  <eekee> mmhmm.. but it's like... you've only beat the game for specific cases
17:59:31  <eekee> aha
17:59:47  <V453000> no
17:59:55  <V453000> we can play with e.g. Lev4 as well
18:00:13  <V453000> you can try and adjust some stuff, but in the end the normal prio etc things win anyway
18:00:19  <V453000> simply because it works
18:00:35  <V453000> you could make pre-accelerated joiners which time themselves etc, but that just takes too much space
18:01:20  <eekee> i think i can make the 'normal prio thing' better and simpler. will take a while to try it out though
18:01:38  <V453000> well lets see
18:01:43  <eekee> yeah
18:01:54  <V453000> as I already pasted, the PBS->entry signals works slightly better, but is situational
18:02:02  <V453000> and it again comes back to having shorter prios
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20:20:39  <coopserver> Djanxy: sqhash
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