Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 11th June 2010:
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00:02:30  <andy5345> cant seem to find the support irc channel
00:02:47  <andy5345> can someone quickly tell me what the criteria is for being able to use monorail?
00:02:57  <andy5345> X amount of money or time?
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11:23:05  <Brot6> NFO Meta Language - Revision 270:f6348d8a5efd: Codechange: Remove _debug global var. (Alberth) @
11:23:05  <Brot6> NFO Meta Language - Revision 271:c3643feee8e6: Codechange: Remove unused variable. (Alberth) @
11:23:06  <Brot6> NFO Meta Language - Revision 272:d62701b06f34: Codechange: Improve formatting of usage message a ... (Alberth) @
11:31:33  <Brot6> NFO Meta Language - Revision 273:e22c83cfd498: Fix: Close nml output stream after use. (Alberth) @
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12:39:58  <DJNekkid> @logs
12:39:58  <Webster> Logs:
12:41:12  <DJNekkid> :)
13:29:14  <Alberth> not extremely useful, is it ?
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18:36:59  <Alberth> s/developed on http:/developed at http:/ ?
18:42:17  <Alberth> should nml generate program version checking code for features that it uses to implement its primitives?
18:42:49  <Alberth> to prevent activating the grf in an older program version
19:18:36  <planetmaker> g'day
19:20:21  <Alberth> hai
19:23:32  <planetmaker> sometimes it's amazing. One just goes somewhere to takes some images - and then it ends with "no one has ever gathered images this way - do you want to make a paper out of it?"
19:24:24  <Alberth> :)
19:25:14  <Alberth> you found new things too?
19:25:26  <Alberth> (in the images)
19:25:56  <planetmaker> maybe not new. But definitely some worth further investigation :-)
19:26:25  <planetmaker> No one ever understood charging so far ;-)
19:26:53  <Alberth> charging ?
19:27:07  <planetmaker> like the school experiment with the cat fur
19:27:13  <planetmaker> yes.
19:27:22  <Alberth> hai, physics :)
19:27:39  <planetmaker> there's no theory to explain the charge transfer as a function of material, friction speed etc pp
19:27:49  * Alberth was thinking astronomy images
19:28:05  <planetmaker> :-) I'm astrophysicis, but I work in a lab :-)
19:28:07  <Alberth> sounds interesting indeed
19:28:34  <planetmaker> But this will be an engineering paper ;-)
19:29:09  <planetmaker> high-speed 3D long-distance holographic microscopy :-P
19:30:10  <Alberth> I think you covered enough buzz words :p
19:30:35  <planetmaker> ;-) But only this combination is new ;-)
19:30:58  <Alberth> But yes, I can imagine just doing that is complicated enough to make a paper about it
19:31:05  <planetmaker> hehe. Yeah
19:31:28  <planetmaker> Thinking of that I only came here to test / qualify that piece of equipment, that's a nice outcome ;-)
19:31:39  * planetmaker is happy
19:31:43  <frosch123> [21:29] <planetmaker> high-speed 3D long-distance holographic microscopy :-P <- maybe you should offer that belugas for lunch break :p
19:32:12  <planetmaker> hm... why Belugas?
19:33:47  <planetmaker> ok, I'll feed it to him ;-)
19:33:59  <Alberth> he likes distractions :)
19:34:14  <frosch123> belugas always wants to do photos from far distance, and if they are even 3d :p
19:35:44  <planetmaker> hm... I don't have them on this computer :-)
19:36:11  <planetmaker> and... 3D is... only available through post-processing
19:52:25  <Alberth> I was hoping for some feedback on my comments two days ago in nml, but no luck so far
19:55:09  <planetmaker> oh... I was... working 9-21 all those days... what are those comments?
19:55:39  <Alberth>
19:55:46  <Alberth>
19:56:26  <Alberth> 12 hours work, 8 hours sleep, 1 hour eating, that should leave you 3 hours nml coding :p
19:56:43  <planetmaker> :-P
19:57:53  <planetmaker> Okay... should I break-down hours in detail? Wednesday: getup, dress & eat: 6:30..7:15. 7:30: pickup car at university, 7:45: leave from home (again) with luggage.
19:58:21  <planetmaker> 15h: arrive at company.
19:58:25  <Alberth> don't forget to reserve time for writing down all the details :)
19:58:26  <planetmaker> 22:30h finish working
19:58:35  <Alberth> nah, just kidding :)
19:58:35  <planetmaker> hahaha :-)
20:00:06  * planetmaker reads
20:00:56  <Alberth> thanks
20:02:15  <Alberth> I am not sure it is something we can decide about
20:02:34  <Alberth> s/it is/they are/
20:03:02  <planetmaker> it's not IMHO, I don't feel qualified to judge it in its entirety
20:03:47  <Alberth> (08:42:30 PM) Alberth: should nml generate program version checking code for features that it uses to implement its primitives?
20:03:47  <Alberth> (08:43:02 PM) Alberth: to prevent activating the grf in an older program version  <-- and this is another one, I think
20:04:24  <Alberth> but the great Yexo has left us at this time, it seems
20:05:00  <planetmaker> he...
20:05:16  <planetmaker> hm, indeed, not even online
20:05:52  <planetmaker> well. latest in 1.08 weeks we can ask him in person
20:06:09  <Alberth> :)
20:06:33  <frosch123> i guess you will have  a hard time with figuring out which stuff was added when, and when it worked :p
20:06:59  <planetmaker> hm?
20:07:13  <frosch123> and if you also support ttdp, you are likely lost
20:07:33  <Alberth> oh, my new question :)
20:07:39  <frosch123> [22:03] <Alberth> (08:42:30 PM) Alberth: should nml generate program version checking code for features that it uses to implement its primitives? <- that one
20:08:19  <planetmaker> oh, thanks
20:08:20  <Alberth> the specs do state revisions and versions
20:08:34  <planetmaker> Alberth: for TTDP. But not for OpenTTD conclusively
20:08:53  <planetmaker> Some things OpenTTD does not support and it's not even mentioned
20:09:18  <planetmaker> So the documentation for OpenTTD-deviations from the specs is at best mediocre
20:09:20  <frosch123> it also depends at what detail you want to check. only general availability? or also availability of certain variables in certain callbacks?
20:09:27  <Alberth> we'll find out when somebody tries, I guess :)
20:09:37  <planetmaker> frosch123: the latter is IMHO the thing lacking most in that documentation
20:09:49  <Alberth> I'd say as precise as possible
20:09:54  <planetmaker> and where personally I'm lost time and again.
20:10:14  <frosch123> planetmaker: if it was mediawiki, i would likely have added ttdp 2.0, 2.5, 2.6, ottd 0.5 - 1.0 labels a year ago
20:10:17  <planetmaker> But of course I see where it came from
20:10:29  <frosch123> i even draw some
20:10:45  <frosch123> though they were ugly, i canceled it due to stupid tikiwiki
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20:10:46  <planetmaker> frosch123: honestly I have toyed around the idea to transfer the content to the OpenTTD newgrf dev section
20:11:00  <andythenorth> evening
20:11:04  <planetmaker> also for stupid tiki-wiki reasons
20:11:08  <planetmaker> hai andythenorth
20:11:12  <frosch123> yeah, i guess that would happen somewhen :p
20:11:21  <planetmaker> :-P
20:12:17  <planetmaker> it can only be a matter of time
20:12:24  <planetmaker> But it has political consequences
20:13:07  <frosch123> well, having two places is also stupid
20:13:10  <planetmaker> Alberth: the position patch: does it already result in printing the line errors? It looks so small for such a big advantage :-)
20:13:17  <planetmaker> frosch123: yes, of course
20:13:33  <Alberth> no, it just gives a direction.
20:13:52  <Alberth> all AST nodes must first copy positions from the parser
20:14:06  <Alberth> otherwise they cannot generate a position with an error
20:14:18  <planetmaker> ah, ok... then I see how it would work.
20:14:22  <Alberth> so it is a lot of work, but badly needed imho
20:14:39  <planetmaker> frosch123: but how would one then initiate such move in a sane manner?
20:15:21  <Alberth> propose a format change, eg to a textual format instead of html ?
20:16:16  <Alberth> would make handling/tracking changes much simpler imho
20:16:22  <planetmaker> Alberth: you mean the NFO specs?
20:16:24  <frosch123> planetmaker: it needs some more. dalestan somewhat disappeared, so i would have no idea who could still edit the table of contents
20:16:36  <planetmaker> frosch123: mb
20:16:40  <planetmaker> (I think)
20:17:06  <Alberth> planetmaker: yep, or are both of you discussing something else?
20:17:24  <planetmaker> Alberth: we're discussing the home of the newgrf specs
20:17:43  <planetmaker> and their representation, the closely related nfo specs
20:17:55  <planetmaker> I guess, actually, the NML documentation could suck it up :-)
20:18:56  <planetmaker> Or OpenTTD gets a new document which outlines the specs as its documentation
20:19:12  <planetmaker> (Which would then be the even saner thing, as it belongs there)
20:19:27  <Alberth> nml is at a higher abstraction level, it would be a code-generator target description then
20:19:40  <planetmaker> But the disadvantage of such solution is: it's not as easy to contribute for non-devs as with a wiki
20:20:09  <planetmaker> that goes also for adding it to the nml project
20:20:18  <andythenorth> do non-devs contribute to the newgrf wiki?
20:20:26  <andythenorth> and if they do, is it actually useful?
20:20:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, I do. You do. foobar does
20:20:37  <planetmaker> mb does
20:20:37  <andythenorth> Umm
20:20:38  <Alberth> I have seen RBs name there :)
20:20:42  <frosch123> planetmaker: for the lowlevel stuff there really should only be one place. else some ttdp guy would assign some variable which is already assigned by ottd differently
20:20:58  <planetmaker> :-)
20:21:26  <frosch123> but for that is is sufficient to write "var <xy> taken, see description at <...>" :p
20:21:36  <planetmaker> :-P
20:21:53  <planetmaker> well. It would indeed be sufficient
20:22:31  <planetmaker> well, I'm not sure. I think the OpenTTD wiki allows to lock pages or make them editable only by some users or a certain user group
20:22:44  <planetmaker> I think the title page is a good example
20:22:59  <frosch123> i can lock pages, no idea whether that is group based
20:23:00  <planetmaker> As it allows user groups it could even go there
20:23:22  <planetmaker> media wiki certainly allows groups and corresponding rights management
20:23:29  <planetmaker> even lesser wikis allow that
20:24:27  <planetmaker> frosch123: you're certainly a wiki admin. Admins in that definition can do everything
20:24:51  <planetmaker> But you could probably generate a user group "NewGRFDoc" and assign single users to that group
20:24:53  <frosch123> well, i can do a lot at the wiki, just i do not know how to :p
20:25:01  <planetmaker> And grant them the right to edit pages in that group
20:25:10  <planetmaker> and dissallow everyone else to edit those
20:25:14  <planetmaker> he
20:25:34  <planetmaker>
20:25:35  <Webster> Title: Manual:User rights management - MediaWiki (at
20:32:13  <frosch123> i guess that would need activation elsewhere. anyway, do we actually need rights for newgrf stuff? ttdpwiki has none either
20:32:18  <andythenorth> wiki bleargh
20:32:38  <frosch123> ottd wiki only protects pages which were regulary spammed
20:32:52  <planetmaker> frosch123: it has for index. But honestly: I wouldn't really like it, yes
20:34:13  <planetmaker> I guess though, that no one can make the TTDP guys move "their" wiki from to
20:35:01  <planetmaker> @calc 3!
20:35:47  <frosch123> planetmaker: well, but maybe they would move it to some mediawiki on tt-forums servers
20:38:01  <planetmaker> frosch123: possibly
20:38:11  <planetmaker> might be a good compromise
20:46:05  <Ammler> with nml, ttdp wiki gets obsolete :-)
20:46:39  <planetmaker> not quite :-)
20:46:47  <planetmaker> the newgrf specs need documentation
20:47:22  <Ammler> sorry, I just came home and didn't read something, just a loud thought :-
20:47:24  <Ammler> p
20:47:39  <planetmaker> :-)
20:48:10  <Ammler> newgrf spec is for nfo, but nml does grf
20:49:07  <Ammler> you don't document "actions"
20:51:32  <planetmaker> well...
20:52:03  <planetmaker> Alberth: the move_data_classes patch: is it 'only' code refactoring or does it change / fix the parameter issue?
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20:53:31  <Ammler> planetmaker: frosch123, did any of you ever ask for "admin" rights on ttdp wiki?
20:53:47  <planetmaker> Ammler: I didn't
20:54:05  <frosch123> no, but the tikiwiki/mediawiki is more important than the admin-issue
20:54:08  <planetmaker> and I learnt that one doesn't ask for admin rights ;-)
20:54:23  <Ammler> yeah, not directly...
20:54:39  <frosch123> i only took the admin-issue as excuse to shoot down tikiwki :p
20:54:47  <planetmaker> :-P
20:56:08  <Ammler> but as mediawiki might be a good thing...
20:56:17  <Alberth> It only moves code, ie it does not even refactor. I think it solves the cyclic imports mentioned, since the back-link to ast disappears (since I move the ast node referenced into the action node that links to it). Testing that is not exactly trivial however, perhaps I should first remove some more 'import *'s
20:57:25  <Ammler> but I fear noone of the responsible ttpatch people is active anymore
20:58:06  <Ammler> so the wiki "just" works but no maintenance
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21:01:33  <Alberth> good night
21:02:34  <planetmaker> good night, Alberth
21:03:11  <planetmaker> Ammler: "just works" is not true: it needs an admin to edit the table of contents
21:03:45  <Ammler> yes, that  needs maintenance which is gone since some later years
21:04:03  <planetmaker> that - and (obviously not only my) preference of mediawiki over tikiwiki would be reasons to change
21:04:08  * andythenorth ponders using industry var 67
21:04:53  <Ammler> planetmaker: the lack of maintenace also means nobody would help/agree on moving the wiki to an other place
21:05:18  <Ammler> so you might need to setup it self
21:06:56  <frosch123> Ammler: ttdp is not that dead
21:07:26  <frosch123> though dalestan posted last time in march, he logged in on 1st june
21:07:41  <Ammler> no patchman = quite much dead
21:07:47  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 898:4afbc542aa94: Fix: Wrong bauxite quantity at the spa... (Terkhen) @
21:07:54  <frosch123> also if you contact wallyweb by pm instead of posting first on forums might help
21:08:13  <Ammler> wallyweb is for ttdpatch like I am for openttd
21:08:36  <Ammler> just a fan :-P
21:08:42  <frosch123> no, he is somewhat like the whole #openttd channel
21:08:50  <frosch123> 20% of userbase or so
21:09:23  <Ammler> he is the only user :-P
21:09:43  <Ammler> the rest of ttdp user are also devs or grf authors
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21:10:05  <Ammler> hmm, wrong, he became grf author too
21:10:58  * andythenorth wonders whether to check var 67 as dword or byte?  I just want an industry count as result
21:13:16  <Ammler> I assume, that josef is the only one, who can change permissions on the tikiwiki?
21:13:44  <frosch123> andythenorth: byte is enough
21:13:47  <Ammler> who does manage
21:14:00  <frosch123> Ammler: why do you need managing?
21:14:32  <Ammler> well, it could be helpful for migration
21:15:11  <Ammler> how you like to convert the wiki?
21:16:17  <andythenorth> scrape the content?
21:16:33  <planetmaker> Ammler: copy&paste?
21:16:39  <planetmaker> &edit
21:16:43  <frosch123> you need to reformat it anyway
21:17:03  <Ammler> yes, that is the way, if you do it "unofficial"
21:17:03  <frosch123> i do not think there is sane automatic way
21:18:12  <Ammler> if you do it that way, you could as good copy it to
21:18:47  <frosch123> Ammler: copying would include removing in the old place, as there should not be two places
21:19:23  <frosch123> and if you do that without some discussion on tt-forums, and without some ttdp guys agreeing, welll... :p
21:19:47  <frosch123> hmm, 104 pages...
21:19:59  <frosch123> maybe there would be some use of automatic
21:20:38  <frosch123> even some more pages
21:20:46  <Ammler> maybe there exists some scripts to convert tikiwiki to mediawiki...
21:21:26  <Ammler> and if patchman would agree, the making it official is no issue
21:22:22  <planetmaker> there are scripts as a short google search reveals :-)
21:23:58  <Ammler> there is mainly no issue between openttd<->ttdpatch only tikiwiki<->mediawiki
21:24:09  <Ammler> so I don't think the patchers would be against
21:24:24  <planetmaker>
21:24:25  <Webster> Title: Manual:TikiWiki Conversion - MediaWiki (at
21:24:34  <planetmaker> The known unsupported syntax includes tikiwiki syntax tables
21:24:46  <planetmaker> dunno if that's important
21:24:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: little trouble with var 67 :|
21:24:50  <andythenorth>
21:25:00  <andythenorth> I am trying to check the count of industry 1A
21:25:05  <planetmaker> Ammler: of course they would be against it
21:25:14  <Ammler> why?
21:25:42  <Ammler> the only active wiki admin is MB
21:25:53  <Ammler> or is Dalestan also one
21:25:58  <planetmaker> he is
21:26:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: you lack the shifting, don't you?
21:26:20  <Ammler> and what would be the issue to make those 2 admin on the new wiki too?
21:26:38  <planetmaker> nothing.
21:26:45  <frosch123> Ammler: you do not need any admins
21:26:50  <planetmaker> But would they find the move sensible?
21:26:50  <Ammler> yes :-)
21:26:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: hmmm no shift
21:27:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: shift 0F seems to work :)
21:27:24  <andythenorth> thanks
21:27:38  <frosch123> shouldn't it be 10 ?
21:27:44  <Ammler> frosch123: the only useful job of admins is edit frontpage and delete
21:28:14  <Ammler> maybe you can start without, but not sure..
21:28:16  <frosch123> and what of those would you need for newgrfspecs?
21:28:27  <Ammler> we had to do that on our coop wiki too
21:28:30  <andythenorth> frosch123: yes
21:29:30  * andythenorth is one step closer to clustered industries :0
21:30:24  <Ammler> frosch123: I think, you should mail patchman about that
21:31:24  <planetmaker> for conversion: Requirements
21:31:25  <planetmaker>     * Admin access to your TikiWiki
21:31:27  <planetmaker>     * Sysop access to a MediaWiki installation
21:31:28  <planetmaker>     * Access to the TikiWiki database and the capability to perform MySQL commands
21:31:30  <planetmaker>     * Python (not sure which version is required - we used 2.5.1)
21:31:30  * andythenorth tries the next step
21:31:31  <planetmaker>           o to ensure it's parsed properly apply this patch from this bug
21:31:33  <planetmaker>     * The python conversion script
21:31:51  <frosch123> Ammler: i do not know him at all
21:31:51  <planetmaker> hm... industrial areas? :-)
21:32:06  <Ammler> frosch123: who of the active devs does?
21:32:16  <andythenorth> ooh.  clustering works :o
21:32:17  <Ammler> is is inactive since I know openttd
21:32:51  <Ammler> I mean, the question is, would he help to migrate
21:33:20  <Ammler> and if he would, it is best, when he tells it to the rest of the patchers :-)
21:33:40  <frosch123> Ammler: he is inactive since october 2006
21:33:41  <andythenorth>
21:33:51  <frosch123> so some should know him, especially those from #tycoon
21:34:15  <Ammler> yeah, orudge might be another person
21:34:17  <planetmaker> nice, andythenorth !
21:34:21  <Terkhen> andythenorth: that's fantastic :)
21:34:38  <planetmaker> I asked orudge about mediawiki. But he's currently not online
21:34:51  <andythenorth> Terkhen: :) it's unfinished.  I might commit it though.  It needs some testing for map sizes
21:35:54  <Ammler> the other question is, do you really like to stick with nfo?
21:36:54  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I was about to start a game (first one in months); if you send me the diff file I can test it a little
21:38:04  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I've pushed it
21:38:10  <andythenorth> it only works for Arable Farms
21:38:15  <Terkhen> okay, let's see
21:38:15  <Ammler> clustered farms should be a bit more absent from towns...
21:38:42  <andythenorth> nah, some towns are surrounded by farms :)
21:38:48  <Ammler> hehe
21:39:25  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 899:59113ab92ac5: Change: test implementation of cluster... (andythenorth) @
21:39:25  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 900:6fa2b53f736b: merge (andythenorth) @
21:40:58  * andythenorth ponders doing something about scaling for map sizes :|
21:41:07  <Ammler> andythenorth: in such cases, a rollback, pull, commit would be easier
21:41:24  <andythenorth> true
21:41:42  <Ammler> as the push is declined anyway
21:42:10  <Ammler> and you have only one commit
21:43:01  <Terkhen> <-- too many arable farms in a single cluster when playing in big maps
21:43:05  <andythenorth>
21:43:09  <andythenorth> same here :)
21:43:22  <andythenorth> he
21:44:20  * andythenorth looks for map size var
21:44:47  <frosch123> action d, read patch vars
21:45:08  <andythenorth> hmm
21:45:13  * andythenorth scratches head
21:45:54  <Terkhen> in smaller map sizes the problem is that almost all arable farms are in the same place, but seems playable
21:45:56  <planetmaker> those are also OpenTTD vars
21:46:23  <Terkhen> this probably will be solved if different types of farm can cluster together
21:46:35  <frosch123> you cannot access it directly from varact2, you need to copy it first into a grf parameter
21:46:45  <andythenorth> oh poop :|
21:46:54  <andythenorth> and it's a complicated format
21:47:30  <frosch123> the variable or the action?
21:48:15  <andythenorth> the variable
21:48:30  <andythenorth> the action is pretty simple, I guess I just have to duplicate a lot of varaction 2s
21:49:29  <frosch123> i guess you would need the SS part, and use the rotate operator to adjust the spawn-point count
21:50:19  <frosch123> though actionD also has shift operators
21:53:26  <andythenorth> scaling by map size can be a problem for another day :)
21:53:37  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I've broken something with arable farm closure :)
21:53:42  <andythenorth> they all close instantly
21:55:01  <Terkhen> oh, ok, I'll start with a previous revision then
21:55:17  <Terkhen> not that I'm going to play a lot today... I'm already sleepy
21:55:22  <andythenorth> me too
21:55:32  <andythenorth> I think I know what the problem is
21:55:38  * planetmaker , too
21:55:50  * planetmaker wishes a good night to everyone
21:56:22  <andythenorth> hmm....cb flags
21:56:29  <Terkhen> good night planetmaker
21:56:37  <andythenorth> 32 + 08 = 40 ....or 3A ??
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21:57:05  <Terkhen> 0x32?
21:57:07  <planetmaker> 40
21:57:17  <planetmaker> 0x32+0x08=0x40 ;-)
21:57:21  <andythenorth> cb flags are always a bit baffling
21:57:28  <planetmaker> err... :-P 0x3A
22:00:16  <andythenorth> Terkhen: fixed & pushed
22:00:45  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 901:3282041811a5: Fix: cb flag was wrong for Arable Farm (andythenorth) @
22:01:31  <Terkhen> ok :)
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22:11:08  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 902:a49b0b2713d9: Change: prevent Arable Farms clusterin... (andythenorth) @
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