Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 28th August 2010:
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00:09:46  <Ammler> oh, town names can have newline
00:11:48  *** thgergo has quit IRC
00:14:10  <OwenS> That sounds... "fun"
00:15:47  <Yexo> Ammler: yes, nml supports most of action14 (missing are "newgrf version" and "strings for parameter values")
00:16:48  <Ammler> Yexo: and syntax is like the ticket?
00:16:54  <Yexo> yes
00:17:20  <Yexo> as in the latest post by hirundo in the ticket
00:18:28  <Ammler> I don't have parameters, yet.
00:18:49  <Ammler> version is actually the only interesting thing, so there is no much lost :-)
00:29:42  <Ammler> Yexo: things like min openttd version and such will be coded by nml automatically I assume?
00:30:04  <Yexo> we had some discussion about that quite a while ago
00:30:37  <Yexo> the discussion was that nml should not do that automatically, but it should print the minimum required version to stdout when you ask for it
00:30:38  <Ammler> well, pre 1.0 features aren't interesting anymore
00:35:29  <Ammler> 01	Etampes Étampes
00:35:30  <Ammler> 01	Evreux Évreux
00:35:32  <Ammler> 01	Evry Évry
00:35:39  <Ammler> are those towns right spelled?
00:56:11  <Brot6> French Town Names - Revision 0:8263862c5aaa: Initial import/convert, based on swisstowns and Fren... (Ammler) @
01:00:47  <Ammler> well, stupid backup, then no Forums update, good night :-)
01:01:58  <Brot6> frenchtowns: update from  to r0 done (3 errors) -
01:08:27  <DJNekkid> hi mates :d
01:09:05  <DJNekkid> anyone with more then 999/1000 parts of blood in their alcohol ... current?
01:09:38  <DJNekkid> "omløp"
01:11:51  <DJNekkid> guess not, or you are asleep atm
03:06:29  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Support #1304: Mission statement (2006TTD) @
03:11:07  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Feature #1263: Toyland Rough Land (2006TTD) @
06:55:15  <Brot6> Snowline mod - Revision 37:82d6dc0d0643: Doc: Update documentation for release (planetmaker) @
06:55:15  <Brot6> Snowline mod - Revision 38:83564a39d041: Change: Colour in description to better fit the NewGRF GUI (planetmaker) @
07:00:04  <andythenorth> no foobar?
07:00:40  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #1328: Wrong power for Shinkansen 0 and 700 (Voyager1) @
07:12:08  <Brot6> snowlinemod: update from 0.1.0 to 1.0.0 done -
07:12:54  <Brot6> snowlinemod: update from 1.0.0 to 1.0.0 done -
07:13:16  <Brot6> Snowline mod - Revision 39:d0731eef8ecf: Change: Add translations also partially to the displayed... (planetmaker) @
07:13:16  <Brot6> Snowline mod - Revision 40:34b38d5498cd: Added tag 1.0.0 for changeset d0731eef8ecf (planetmaker) @
07:37:58  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1334 (New): Code cleanup (andythenorth) @
08:16:11  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 508:93057414e51a: Change #1263: Variation for the rough level toyland tiles (g... (planetmaker) @
08:18:24  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Feature #1263 (Closed): Toyland Rough Land (planetmaker) @
08:25:06  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Feature #682: fields don't show harvested corn or straw (planetmaker) @
08:30:07  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Feature #839: 4737-4742: Fizzy drink factory (planetmaker) @
08:35:39  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1335 (Closed): Improved TT-Foundry display of deprecated... (andythenorth) @
08:39:17  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1278:7a3d06be3e28: Cleanup: comment unused ID define; fi... (andythenorth) @
08:39:17  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1279:5f9f43782c38: Cleanup: comment further unused ID de... (andythenorth) @
08:40:34  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1280:58da849467ae: Remove: redundant files from Cane Pla... (andythenorth) @
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08:46:22  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1281:b47586825751: Cleanup: comment / remove all Fish Pr... (andythenorth) @
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08:52:26  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1282:aeb93bccc853: Cleanup: comment / remove all Farm Su... (andythenorth) @
08:52:26  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1283:af932b053200: Cleanup: remove some missed things fo... (andythenorth) @
08:54:32  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1284:dfded3d7ebc5: Cleanup: indicate some vacant IDs (andythenorth) @
08:54:32  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1285:d9a9d7d270a8: Fix: mistake with indicating vacant IDs (andythenorth) @
09:00:13  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1286:eaf8b2c10076: Cleanup: remove further defines / IDs... (andythenorth) @
09:02:53  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1287:0a1e01f99859: Cleanup: improve further comments / f... (andythenorth) @
09:02:53  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1288:65f9a701ad20: Cleanup: remove some redundant colour... (andythenorth) @
09:10:49  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 509:13ecdfffef64: Fix #280: Remove animation pixels from red signals (planetmaker) @
09:10:50  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #280 (Closed): standard signals (planetmaker) @
09:12:44  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1289:a9e316c1c473: Cleanup: remove all references to Sur... (andythenorth) @
09:13:03  <planetmaker> Ammler: issue #280: I think we can keep it closed? The alignment of the signals looks ok to me. Or do you want to still play around with it?
09:13:04  <Brot6> planetmaker: Ammler: #280 is "OpenGFX - Bug #280: standard signals - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
09:14:15  <planetmaker> quite a Brot-spamed channel this morning ;-)
09:17:04  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1290:ce1d6e4ff281: Cleanup: remove all references to PAR... (andythenorth) @
09:24:00  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1291:fa6c5ee55e31: Cleanup: refer to Petrol Pump instead... (andythenorth) @
09:27:48  * Terkhen will indeed need to pull
09:27:59  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1292:f9b491fc67f8: Change: rename industry_schemes.pnfo ... (andythenorth) @
09:28:18  <Ammler> planetmaker: the red action colors are still in, afaik
09:28:26  <planetmaker> is it?!
09:28:42  <planetmaker> you did look at the related commit? ;-)
09:28:47  <planetmaker> r509
09:29:34  <Ammler> I didn't look at all :-P
09:29:53  <Ammler> so yes, close is fine
09:32:34  <Ammler> you converted it self?
09:32:55  <Ammler> I said, I do that, I just liked to give 2006TTD a bit time
09:36:15  <Ammler> thgergo: likes to continue with bridges :-)
09:36:24  <Ammler> someone should tell him about railtypes ;-)
09:41:44  <thgergo> hello
09:42:23  <thgergo> I have tested TBRS with shanghai maglevs.
09:42:25  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - [OTTD] Shanghai Maglev Tracks (at
09:43:07  <thgergo> it gives a surface for bridges too. works like a charm, apart of that it makes bridgeheads glichy
09:43:55  <thgergo> becouse at the noment there is no way to draw a front sprite for bridgeheads...
09:45:30  <thgergo> Also the more important thing is, this overlay sprite size should be unified... Is there a standard for it already?
09:49:21  <thgergo> nice to see nutracks have overlays too... gonna test that too:)
09:51:57  <planetmaker> thgergo: there's no standard size for that
09:52:22  <planetmaker> as such a bridge set should IMHO use the usual width of bridges. Or take the usual track width and add a bit of a margin
09:54:03  <thgergo> indeed. For example shanghai maglevs also doenst fill the whole area of the original maglev. It leaves a white line in the border.
09:54:49  <planetmaker> thgergo: there hardly can be a 'default' size; it somewhat depends upon the track
09:55:01  <planetmaker> On the other hand: bridge overlay sprites are separate sprites
09:55:09  <planetmaker> Every rail types specify them separately
09:55:22  <planetmaker> So a given size by a bridge newgrf can be handled.
09:55:53  <planetmaker> Mind though that you just have vehicle sizes vary, too ;-)
09:57:02  <thgergo> what do you mean separetly? These sprites is not shared with road crossings etc?
09:57:49  <Ammler> thgergo: why not simply make a "empty" set?
09:57:54  <Ammler> no tracks at all
09:58:28  <thgergo> maybe... but what happens with the play with no new railtypes?
09:58:43  <Ammler> they can use TBRS 1.12
09:59:00  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 510:ddab40a68386: Fix #862: Gaps in the airport fences. Rework their size and ... (planetmaker) @
09:59:00  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #862 (Closed): fences on airports (planetmaker) @
09:59:14  <planetmaker> thgergo: that's why I proposed to make it a parameter
09:59:18  <Ammler> or you add a parameter
09:59:18  <thgergo> and whats the benifit of an "empty" set? If there something in there, it can be overlayed
09:59:39  <planetmaker> thgergo: I can't use transparency then
09:59:51  <planetmaker> like a cantilever bridge with rails where I can just look through
09:59:56  <planetmaker> which would IMHO look awesome
10:00:19  <Ammler> we also plan to make a default railtypes set
10:00:30  <thgergo> that would be an option
10:00:55  <thgergo> i also have an idea to make "empty" surfaces
10:00:56  <Ammler> so if there is no railtypes, tbrs just loads that :-)
10:01:07  <thgergo> and let the rails drawn by TBRS
10:01:29  <Ammler> yes, or error and thell the player to load that grf
10:01:31  <thgergo> but how we detect is there a new railtype or not?
10:01:45  <planetmaker> thgergo: don't add railtypes to the bridge. That'd be wrong
10:01:59  <Ammler> why?
10:02:17  <Ammler> it "has" already
10:02:24  <planetmaker> it'd make it a rail set. Not a universal bridge set
10:02:35  <planetmaker> Exactly. That's what we have. Nothing new
10:02:39  <planetmaker> Just new colour
10:03:02  <Ammler> yep, with parameter to switch off/on
10:03:34  <planetmaker> imho there's no point.
10:03:44  <thgergo> users dont like parameters
10:03:45  <planetmaker> make a rail set with the rails you want
10:03:56  <planetmaker> and bridges wich support any rail set
10:04:01  <planetmaker> modularity
10:04:11  <thgergo> yeah
10:04:15  <planetmaker> thgergo: you haven't tried trunk parameter settings yet ;-)
10:04:22  <thgergo> i have tried
10:04:44  <thgergo> but its still became a pain when you have 20 or more newgrf loaded
10:09:45  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #1329: allow trailing "," on last group(?) item (Hirundo) @
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10:14:15  <planetmaker> thgergo: in order to summarize my view: I think a bridge set would be best supporting gameplay and available options if it just made rail bridges with the default rail types (maybe both TTD and OpenGFX) as well as without ballast+tracks available, all via parameter
10:14:40  <planetmaker> In order to support default behaviour best, my suggestion is to come with OpenGFX track sprites by default when nothing is set
10:15:03  <planetmaker> Maybe the presence of certain railtypes can be detected and the sprites w/o tracks then chosen automatically
10:16:18  <thgergo> I think ill reamove the ballast from the cantilever bridges, and suspensions...
10:16:25  <thgergo> make it transparent
10:18:07  <planetmaker> :-)
10:18:17  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 511:0c78cfb3d955: Change: Move transmitter and lighthouse to their own file (planetmaker) @
10:18:20  <Brot6> frenchtowns: update from  to r0 done (3 errors) -
10:18:36  <thgergo> the problem will be the automatic detection of, that will be a rail sprite drawn or not?
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10:19:04  <planetmaker> yes, that's not possible
10:19:10  <planetmaker> What you can do:
10:19:19  <planetmaker> check for nutracks --> all bridges are rail types
10:19:25  <thgergo> yeah
10:19:31  <planetmaker> check for swedish rails --> normal and e-rail will be rail types
10:19:33  <planetmaker> etc pp
10:19:44  <thgergo> so when a new grf appears it makes pain
10:20:05  <planetmaker> that's why you need a parameter to disable that.
10:20:08  <thgergo> anyway, if I remove a ballast, or make unique floor for bridges, should be an option
10:20:15  <planetmaker> yep
10:20:36  <thgergo> but the trasparent bridges would be 2X darker
10:20:37  <thgergo> as now
10:21:09  <thgergo> if bridges have a default surface without rails
10:22:21  <planetmaker> why?
10:22:45  <Brot6> frenchtowns: update from r0 to r0 done (2 errors) -
10:22:55  <planetmaker> You mean just because the shadowing etc requires it and it looks better?
10:23:00  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 512:e49b3ae0fb28: Change: Move the airport sprites to the infrastructure section (planetmaker) @
10:24:43  <planetmaker> Now, that's a lot of less bugs in OpenGFX now :-)
10:25:41  <Rubidium> less bugs by moving stuff?
10:26:35  <planetmaker> nope
10:26:53  <planetmaker> by pixel pushing :-)
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10:30:44  <Rubidium> so it's a tiny bit more than moving
10:31:19  <planetmaker> yep. Airport fence gaps were easier to fix than I though
10:31:21  <planetmaker> t
10:31:23  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1336 (New): Name string for Fishing Harbour broken (andythenorth) @
10:32:19  <thgergo> planetmaker: I mean if you switch on the transparency of bridges
10:32:28  <planetmaker> ah
10:32:46  <thgergo> but this issue should be done with rail owerlays just stay invisible
10:32:59  <thgergo> rather than semi transparent
10:33:04  <thgergo> in OTTD code
10:33:52  <planetmaker> what do you mean?
10:34:09  <planetmaker> you mean that even in invisible mode the overlays are drawn somewhat as transparent?
10:34:19  <planetmaker> it could be considered a bug
10:40:45  <thgergo> yeah thats indeed a bug
10:41:08  <thgergo> but with transparent mode there are many sprites drawn by bridges
10:42:16  <thgergo> for cantilever bridge where is already a 2 layers of sprites, with the railtypes there is a 3th, so everything under the bridges is getting very dark
10:46:57  <planetmaker> ah. So you make them brighter? Or is that not possible?
10:59:12  <thgergo> in the original TTD the front sprites are substracted from the back sprites
10:59:50  <thgergo> but its simply hard to maintain if you want to update your bridge, you will have to do this gain if you want to alter a bridge
11:02:39  <thgergo> hmm not true, but i saw this implementation somewhere
11:03:55  <Brot6> frenchtowns: update from  to r0 done (2 errors) -
11:08:04  <thgergo> planetmaker: like a cantilever bridge with rails where I can just look through
11:08:04  <thgergo> - at the noment nutracks come with ballast attachment for bridges too
11:08:58  <thgergo> thats would be better if new rails come with only rails?
11:09:22  <thgergo> in the other hand bridgeheads should have some ballast
11:11:29  <thgergo> but it wouldt look bad I think if I make a concrete surface for bridgeheads
11:12:14  <Ammler> thgergo: do you mean with transparency something like looking through glass?
11:12:47  <Ammler> isn't transparency simply nothing, so it doesn't matter how many layers you have
11:13:37  <Ammler> like alpha 0%
11:14:10  <thgergo> I mean transprency options. semi transparency is getting just dark for bridges:P
11:14:37  <Ammler> why not full transparency?
11:14:41  <thgergo> where you can set 100% invisibility or semi trnsparency for various things
11:14:56  <planetmaker> thgergo: they can't. As there are many bridges which come with tracks. Most importantly the default bridges
11:15:15  <planetmaker> What rail sets can do: check for the new TBRS and then use different bridge overlay sprites
11:15:24  <planetmaker> But first the bridge set has to support it :-)
11:15:35  <thgergo> indeed
11:16:05  <thgergo> I think will start custom surfaces for TBRS...
11:17:09  <thgergo> but the rail will in there, rails are usually placed in the same position
11:17:25  <thgergo> its can be simply overlayed just swedish rails do
11:17:46  <Ammler> monorail?
11:17:51  <planetmaker> hm :-(
11:17:58  <planetmaker> I really hope for bridges without
11:18:02  <planetmaker> Everything else is nothing new
11:18:17  <planetmaker> overpainting existing tracks is a pain
11:19:31  <thgergo> Ammler: monorails are a different issue:P
11:19:44  <planetmaker> same there then with metrotracks
11:20:00  <planetmaker> or trans rapid and maglev
11:20:33  <thgergo> these could be a 100% surface replacement
11:20:35  <Ammler> thgergo: what is the problem on making bridges without?
11:20:48  <planetmaker> thgergo: and that is ugly
11:20:59  <planetmaker> Why do you just make new bridges without support for new features?
11:21:18  <thgergo> I just thinnking the correct solution
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11:21:29  <Ammler> wouldn't it also be easier for you?
11:21:35  <thgergo> so empty surface could be n option
11:21:43  <planetmaker> that would be: no tracks. no ballast. Just empty surface
11:21:47  <planetmaker> available via parameter
11:21:50  <Ammler> you could very simple add support for every existing rail newgrf
11:22:06  <thgergo> or automatical detection if its not being set
11:22:27  <planetmaker> that's only the next step
11:22:36  <planetmaker> and it may well fail
11:22:43  <planetmaker> if things are oddly combined
11:23:09  <planetmaker> or new rail grfs appear (which will)
11:23:59  <thgergo> then it will be downgrade to having the original bridge surfaces with ballast and rails.
11:24:14  <thgergo> if the user doent set the magic parmeter
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11:24:37  <planetmaker> that's why IMHO the first step should unecessarily be: enable no surfaces via parameter
11:24:44  <planetmaker> It's error-free and future-proof
11:24:52  <planetmaker> -un
11:25:01  <thgergo> yeah
11:25:53  <planetmaker> Once the parameter solution works. Then, and only then, an automatic detection is a 2nd step.
11:26:02  <Ammler> maybe bridges are already possible to code with nml, then parameter handling would be easy
11:26:41  <thgergo> TBRS aready detects if TTRS bridges loaded
11:27:28  <thgergo> ammler is there a way to combine nfo and nml ?
11:27:41  <Ammler> not really
11:27:47  <Ammler> nml does make nfo
11:28:04  <thgergo> or an nfo can be converted to nml?
11:28:31  <Ammler> no
11:28:32  <planetmaker> the latter is not really possible
11:28:46  <planetmaker> combining nml and nfo may work. As nml can write nfo
11:28:55  <planetmaker> which might indeed be an option
11:29:05  <Ammler> yeah, but then you can as good make 2 newgrfs
11:29:18  <Ammler> as you can't intend different types
11:29:20  <planetmaker> Depends upon how you combine it
11:29:29  <planetmaker> can't what?
11:29:37  <Ammler> you can not include nfo in nml
11:29:43  <planetmaker> I could create a pnfo file for an nfo project using nml
11:30:00  <Ammler> include nml in nfo isn't really useful
11:30:01  <planetmaker> e.g. make use of the nice templating features for sprite alignment or so
11:30:08  <planetmaker> it can be :-)
11:30:23  <planetmaker> it just means you have parts of the code already in nml
11:30:36  <planetmaker> It's then easy to replace the rest by nml once those missing parts are (also) there
11:30:45  <planetmaker> and then you'd have a complete nml project
11:30:50  <thgergo> then the current number of nfo files will split into many many smaller files
11:31:21  <planetmaker> I know how such projects look like ;-)
11:31:40  <Ammler> oh, btw. thgergo, do you plan to continue on the svn project?
11:31:41  <thgergo> becouse many parts of the TTRS mixed
11:31:47  <thgergo> yes
11:31:57  <thgergo> but I dont have anything real to upload now
11:32:22  <thgergo> and I need to get familiar with svn yet again
11:32:27  <Ammler> would you whine, if we like you to change to mercurial?
11:32:41  <Ammler> ah so no :-)
11:32:58  <Ammler> if you need to get familiar with svn, you easier start using hg
11:33:05  <thgergo> I dont mind, and I have no idea whats the differency wbetheen this mercurial and svn...
11:37:11  <Ammler> thgergo: you run Linux or Windows (again)?
11:37:49  <thgergo> I have been running ubuntu in the last 2 years
11:38:33  <Ammler> so the Makefile Framework from pm would work nicely
11:51:31  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 166:ef0d7d7b8ea9: Fix: Update script missed some files and cont... (planetmaker) @
12:29:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1337 (New): Consider removing Water cargo (andythenorth) @
12:34:17  <Brot6> French Town Names - Revision 1:540c64a5e383: Fix (r0): probability need to be equal to the amount... (Ammler) @
12:36:38  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1338 (New): Sugar Refinery should be named Sugar Beet Fa... (andythenorth) @
12:37:58  <Brot6> Swiss Town Names - Revision 11:96cc6dfbda04: Fix: see frenchtowns r1 (Ammler) @
12:42:42  <Rubidium> Ammler: would it make sense if people could open "feature requests" in the "town names" section for town names of other countries?
12:42:45  <Brot6> Swiss Town Names - Revision 12:ed1b06b3129b: Fix (r11): max probability is 127 (Ammler) @
12:42:46  <Brot6> French Town Names - Revision 2:f58265f7727a: Fix (r1): max probability is 127 (Ammler) @
12:43:14  <Ammler> yes, if the list looks similar to the lists in data, it is a job of 5mins
12:43:51  <Rubidium> for french that's chance\ttown?
12:43:53  <Ammler> I am happy to do it :-)
12:44:16  <Ammler> Rubidium: I guess so
12:44:53  <Ammler> yep
12:45:39  <Rubidium> any limitations on the chance?
12:45:52  <Ammler> yep, 127 is max
12:48:09  <Ammler> also it is fine to post the "lists" with more columns like regions etc. it might be, that someone would like to make those more customizeable
12:49:39  <Ammler> like chtowns has
12:53:07  <Ammler> and if you really like to have effect on the changes, it is recommend to make the gaps big
12:54:44  <Rubidium> is the value interpreted as hexadecimal or a simple decimal?
12:56:45  <Ammler> decimal :-)
12:56:56  <Ammler> but good question, I never really checked
12:57:12  <Ammler> but then the last commit wouldn't work
12:58:06  <Ammler> oh, I had an issue with awk
12:58:28  <Ammler> that is why the french list has a 3rd empty column
12:59:30  <Ammler> I need to check awk, maybe there is a option I can set
13:26:54  <Ammler> Rubidium: is there a request or list or something on the forums, which I could claim?
13:28:01  <Rubidium> no, occasionally people send mails with requests for guides to
13:29:53  <Ammler> I would also like to code a "random generated" town names list
13:30:26  <Ammler> grf* not list
13:31:12  <Rubidium> I'd say, make a piece of text regarding the preconditions/requirements about those things and I'll link to that for people asking about town names
13:31:59  <Rubidium> furthermore you can add a link from OpenTTD's wiki about town names to there, from the NewGRF specs about town names and from a forum post
13:36:44  <Brot6> Swiss Town Names - Revision 13:443e3c355a10: Change: bundle with subdir (Ammler) @
13:38:21  <Ammler> there are already a lot town names grfs, you think there is still need?
13:39:06  <Brot6> French Town Names - Revision 3:dd6983898956: Change: bundle with subdir (Ammler) @
13:39:14  <Rubidium> is there a Bulgarian?
13:39:23  <Rubidium> or Belarusian?
13:41:13  <Ammler> ok, I see
13:46:43  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 167:e4e0cea4e132: Fix: Distclean could produce unwanted output (planetmaker) @
13:47:21  <planetmaker> Rubidium: the snowline mod now has Belarusian
13:47:38  <Rubidium> aino
13:47:49  <planetmaker> :-)
13:47:56  <planetmaker> I should first read properly backlog ;-)
13:48:50  <Ammler> hmm, how long does it take, from an edit on bananas until I see it with openttd?
13:49:40  <Rubidium> dunno, don't think it does any caching though
13:51:26  <Rubidium> doesn't look like its caching
13:52:04  <Ammler> hmm
13:52:19  <Ammler> swiss towns shows the new version but still the old tags
13:52:47  <Rubidium> don't know how the tags work in bananas' web frontend
13:53:00  <Rubidium> but I reckon it doesn't update the database correctly or something
13:53:10  <Ammler> nvm
13:53:47  <Ammler> I guess, I did something wrong
13:53:50  <planetmaker> oh bugger
13:54:27  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 513:6a44f4142a23: Doc: Update changelog for release (planetmaker) @
13:54:27  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 514:c55e917d7bc2: Added tag 0.4.1 for changeset 6a44f4142a23 (planetmaker) @
13:54:44  <Brot6> opengfx: update from 0.2.4 to 0.4.1 done -
13:54:59  <planetmaker> wrong xterm :-(
13:58:44  <Rubidium> oh... Ammler must be really happy with that release of OpenGFX :)
13:59:01  <planetmaker> :-)
13:59:11  <Ammler> why that big jump?
13:59:35  <Rubidium> Ammler: ellol
13:59:53  <planetmaker> retracked
14:01:08  <Ammler> ah, that is the "bugger" :-)
14:01:32  <planetmaker> I just want to move the makefile changes there.... 0.4.1 is the makefile version
14:01:48  <Ammler> that was meant for the makefile framework :-)
14:01:57  <planetmaker> yes
14:02:05  <planetmaker> wrong xterm :-)
14:02:36  <Ammler> I will fix the redmine
14:03:11  <planetmaker> I rolled back on the repo and fixed bundles. Thank you
14:03:21  <Ammler> strip 513 and 14?
14:03:35  <planetmaker> yes
14:03:43  <planetmaker> though... the repo is at 512
14:03:48  <planetmaker> or not?
14:05:26  <planetmaker> it would be ok to just remove the tag. the commit in OpenGFX named "prepare for release" is then just wrongly named; it should be called "Update Makefile to 0.4.1"
14:05:46  <planetmaker> it is correct in its diff
14:05:52  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Support #1304: Mission statement (athanasios) @
14:05:52  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Support #1304: Mission statement (planetmaker) @
14:08:53  <Ammler> planetmaker: already stripped
14:08:59  <planetmaker> thanks :-)
14:09:11  <Ammler> in redmine, so it will use what is in the repo
14:09:32  <planetmaker> the repo is only at r512
14:10:32  <Brot6> newgrf_makefile: update from 0.4.0 to 0.4.1 done -
14:11:31  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 168:d91313ca618d: Doc: Update changelog for release (planetmaker) @
14:11:31  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 169:49d91241bb61: Added tag 0.4.1 for changeset d91313ca618d (planetmaker) @
14:13:07  <Ammler> current town names wiki linked ot the BlackBook and hacking src :-)
14:17:33  <planetmaker> :-)
14:18:00  <planetmaker> let's see how this updated Makefile performs
14:18:28  <planetmaker> It should fix the problems with the dep check, make things a bit better readable and allow me to then add mathijs wishes maybe a bit easier
14:18:38  <planetmaker> it works here, but... :-)
14:18:54  <Brot6> opengfx: update from 0.4.1 to 0.2.4 done -
14:19:03  <planetmaker> ... it needs testing in the wild
14:19:07  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 513:cb44f8dc4498: Change: Update Makefile to version 0.4.1 (planetmaker) @
14:19:09  <planetmaker> lol @ Brot :-)
14:22:27  <Ammler> Rubidium: <-- fine enough?
14:22:30  <planetmaker> Ammler: I'm tempted to reject #380. Any opinion?
14:22:30  <Brot6> planetmaker: Ammler: #380 is "OpenGFX - Feature #380: TTDPatch support - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
14:22:44  <Ammler> planetmaker: because?
14:22:53  <planetmaker> just because :-P
14:22:57  <Ammler> does it have a target version?
14:23:08  <planetmaker> Nope. But does it have a chance to become reality?
14:23:14  <Ammler> it is
14:23:34  <Ammler> I releases such versions
14:23:39  <planetmaker> ok :-)
14:24:01  <planetmaker> Is it possible to do that via script / makefile?
14:24:13  <planetmaker> like adding new targets?
14:24:20  <Rubidium> it's not "much" more than a #ifdef #else #endif + ttdpatch GUI sprites and making the filenames considerably shorter
14:24:30  <Rubidium> (and the same as the ones TTD expects)
14:24:55  <Ammler> he, first you liked to reject it, now you like to support it even more?
14:25:27  <planetmaker> well. Either or. It's... an open issue. Either it's addressed or rejected ;-)
14:25:42  <planetmaker> Issues are not there to sit around and gather dust :-P
14:26:52  <Ammler> well, we have different opinions about that, I know you don't like using version targets
14:28:22  <Ammler> I don't think it is worth to officially support TTDP, but we also don't need to demonstrate that we don't care about.
14:28:31  <Ammler> at least it works as I made it
14:28:38  <Ammler> I use it on my TTDP
14:28:58  <planetmaker> what do you mean with 'version target'?
14:29:08  <planetmaker> you mean release?
14:29:09  <Ammler> no version set, so no need to close
14:29:15  <planetmaker> oh
14:29:22  <Ammler> the ticket isn't on the road map
14:29:59  <planetmaker> My question is not about whether it has a version assigned or not. Rather principally
14:30:25  <planetmaker> Do we want that? Then it'd be nice, if there could be a short script which generates the TTDP thing
14:30:33  <planetmaker> Which then should be part of the repo
14:30:38  <Ammler> it is for free like it is now
14:30:45  <planetmaker> ?
14:31:00  <Ammler> I committed all needed changes to the extra grf
14:31:19  <Ammler> the only missing thing would be Makefile, which does rename the files
14:31:27  <Ammler> and add a note about how to use it
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14:31:59  <planetmaker> oh, extra has the #ifdef?
14:32:08  <Ammler> no, not needed
14:32:12  <Ammler> Action9
14:32:16  <planetmaker> ah
14:32:29  <planetmaker> so it really only needs renaming?
14:32:36  <Ammler> we don't replace the ttdp extra grf
14:32:42  <Ammler> we add our extra like a newgrf
14:32:54  <planetmaker> ah, ok
14:33:05  <Ammler> replacing the ttdp extra would need some work :-)
14:33:07  <planetmaker> so that is also guarded by action9
14:33:20  <planetmaker> base grf for OpenTTD, normal for TTDP, right?
14:33:46  <Rubidium> technically it could be a base grf for TTDP as well (I think)
14:34:05  <planetmaker> with different GUI sprites, I guess.
14:34:08  <Ammler> yes it is
14:34:11  <planetmaker> That is afaik slightly different
14:34:18  <Ammler> but not the extra, that is like a newgrf
14:34:48  <planetmaker> what would fail, if we declared the extra the ttdpatch.grf?
14:34:57  <planetmaker> except the gui sprites?
14:35:01  <Ammler> no idea
14:35:17  <Ammler> afaik ttdp does some version check
14:35:39  <Ammler> and we miss some sprites like the snowy temperate trees
14:35:52  <planetmaker> hm, yes
14:36:14  <Ammler> also ttdp has the original files, else you can't play with it
14:36:20  <planetmaker> would you care to add that to scripts/Makefile_obg? Like target 'ttdp'?
14:36:33  <planetmaker> which puts all that stuff in the dir ttdp?
14:36:35  <Ammler> so there is no real need to replace the base graphics, imo
14:37:12  <Ammler> planetmaker: I could make a script, but not sure, if I am able to make it with Makefile
14:37:14  <Ammler> I try...
14:37:22  <planetmaker> gimme the script then :-)
14:39:15  <planetmaker> then we can call it explicitly supported
14:40:01  <planetmaker> hm, one could do a branch ttdp
14:40:18  <planetmaker> which just differs by the Makefile slightly
14:40:39  <Ammler> <-- that is what I have :-)
14:50:04  <planetmaker> that is not a script as far as I see
14:54:50  <Rubidium> for i in ogfx*.grf; do mv $i `echo $i | sed s/ogfx\(.\).*/trgr.grf/`; done
14:54:59  <Rubidium> should be fairly effective I guess
14:55:07  <planetmaker> yes :-)
14:56:12  <Ammler> I didn't use a script yet :-)
14:56:24  <planetmaker> :-)
14:56:51  <Ammler> I also made only 1 release
14:57:24  <planetmaker> :-) That's why I ask(ed).
14:57:32  <planetmaker> Why not more regularily?
15:01:14  <Ammler> hmm, I did update 0.2.1
15:35:59  <Ammler> planetmaker: if you prefer fix release dates instead on purpose, you could set those already in the roadmap
15:36:31  <planetmaker> I won't subscribe to an exact date ;-)
15:36:44  <planetmaker> I subscribe to the month :-)
15:49:35  <Ammler> ok, that just sounds like I am still not sure :-)
15:52:33  <planetmaker> Ammler: I'm sure
15:53:11  <planetmaker> But how can I know that I'll have time at, say, exactly 16th September to make the release?
15:53:20  <Ammler> why?
15:53:26  <planetmaker> exactly
15:54:03  <Ammler> well, you could go back to the nice release system we had :-P
15:54:19  <Ammler> release when we have time and need
15:56:42  <Ammler> at least you do answer all the questions rise up because you insist of not making a release :-P
16:14:36  <planetmaker> Ammler: I still want to try to address the package builders' needs for doc dir
16:14:42  <planetmaker> and install dir
16:15:11  <planetmaker> otherwise I see nothing which 'needs' doing before a release
16:15:19  <planetmaker> Even the changelog is updated locally already ;-)
16:15:44  <planetmaker> so yes, it's all in time :-)
16:16:08  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1337: Consider removing Water cargo (foobar) @
16:16:13  <planetmaker> And a somewhat fixed schedule allows to schedule these things nicely _and_ test it somewhat
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16:20:11  <Brot6> firs: update from r1264 to r1292 done -
16:20:39  <Brot6> frenchtowns: update from r0 to r3 done (3 errors) -
16:21:08  <Brot6> newgrf_makefile: update from r165 to r169 done -
16:21:58  <Brot6> nml: update from r683 to r687 done -
16:22:50  <Ammler> planetmaker: so 0.4.1 doesn't have DOCDIR and DATADIR?
16:23:21  <Brot6> opengfx: update from r506 to r513 done -
16:23:52  <Brot6> snowlinemod: update from r36 to r40 done -
16:24:19  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1337 (Feedback): Consider removing Water cargo (andythenorth) @
16:24:19  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1337 (Feedback): Consider removing Water cargo (foobar) @
16:24:19  <Brot6> swisstowns: update from r10 to r13 done (3 errors) -
16:24:47  <planetmaker> Ammler: not yet. No
16:25:19  <planetmaker> That will be 0.5
16:25:21  <Brot6> ttrs: update from r16 to r17 done (125 errors) -
16:25:23  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r592), 32bpp-extra (r38), airportsplus (r53), basecosts (r20), comic-houses (r71), fish (r387), grfcodec (r237), heqs (r372), metrotrackset (r56), nforenum (r476), nutracks (r105), ogfxplus (r41), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), swedishrails (r147), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r25), worldairlinersset (r663)
16:25:38  <Ammler> but the final proposal I made is fine?
16:27:00  <planetmaker> uhm... dunno? which?
16:27:20  <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: frenchtowns (3 errors), ogfxplus (Diffsize: 6), swedishrails
16:29:18  <planetmaker> <-- you mean that?
16:29:20  <planetmaker> yes
16:29:30  <planetmaker> that's what I consider sensible
16:30:15  <planetmaker> though posix seems to tell that the variables should come w/o the "_"
16:30:26  <Ammler> basically you do DOC_DIR = DATA_DIR  = INSTALL_DIR
16:31:01  <planetmaker> I'm not entirely sure
16:31:06  <Ammler> about?
16:31:17  <planetmaker> I might change doc dir to the default doc dir
16:31:37  <Ammler> and what is default?
16:31:37  <planetmaker>  /usr/local/share/doc/yourpkg
16:31:45  <Ammler> as you install to $HOME
16:31:49  <planetmaker> or without local
16:31:59  <planetmaker> I'm thinking about changing the default
16:32:05  <planetmaker> to a global install
16:32:21  <Ammler> well, every packager might need to change your defaults :-)
16:32:24  <planetmaker> which would mean that we would need to change our Makefile.local
16:32:29  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1338: Sugar Refinery should be named Sugar Beet Factory ... (foobar) @
16:32:45  <planetmaker> That might be the reason to not change the intrinsic defaults, yes
16:32:59  <planetmaker> and just allow those variables
16:33:11  <planetmaker> Hm. Maybe I should do that only.
16:33:50  <Ammler> hmm, other possiblity would be to let it unset and then don't install
16:34:06  <Ammler> like the fedora guy doesn't like to install the docs
16:34:36  <planetmaker> hm
16:34:45  <planetmaker> that'd be against the license
16:34:55  <planetmaker> the readme is required
16:35:02  <Ammler> really?
16:35:10  <planetmaker> gpl requires attribution
16:35:10  <Ammler> then you should tell him, heffer
16:35:16  <planetmaker> and the readme gives the attribution
16:35:41  <planetmaker> skipping that would be not nice
16:35:55  <Ammler> well, he does install it per default
16:35:57  <planetmaker> I don't care where, whether in the doc dir or in the data dir.
16:36:04  <Ammler> but not with the Makefile
16:36:25  <planetmaker> He does not need to use the makefile to do so
16:36:34  <planetmaker> but he needs to supply the readme *somehow*
16:37:01  <Ammler> the docs are in the rpm
16:37:16  <Ammler> there might be just an option you can say "skip docs"
16:37:21  <Ammler> I have no idea about that.
16:37:55  <planetmaker> well. But what he does is to supply the rpm. With the docs
16:38:20  <planetmaker> Whether a user choses to say "trash the docs" - that's not our doing or something he can influence
16:38:37  <Ammler> yep
16:38:52  <Ammler> well, he does support that by marking the docs specially
16:39:02  <planetmaker> that's ok
16:39:05  <planetmaker> but he offers them
16:39:06  <Ammler> that is why he does install those without the make
16:39:27  <Ammler> so he does remove the docs after make install and install again manually
16:39:49  <planetmaker> he needs to call make docs anyway... or he won't have the proper ones.
16:40:01  <Ammler> that is why I think a possibility to offer DOCDIR= whcih then doesn't install the docs might be nice
16:40:04  <planetmaker> So if I offer him to install the docs separately... hm
16:40:17  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1324: Translations: support OpenTTD string format codes (foobar) @
16:40:26  <planetmaker> I'll think about that. Whether and how that is possible
16:40:39  <Rubidium> planetmaker: *is* OpenGFX in violation of the license if I remove the documentation locally?
16:40:48  <planetmaker> Rubidium: no
16:40:50  <Ammler> but still I would set default of DOCDIR to DATADIR
16:41:00  <planetmaker> It was a kind of mis-understanding
16:41:12  <planetmaker> [18:38]	<planetmaker>	Whether a user choses to say "trash the docs" - that's not our doing or something he can influence <-- Rubidium
16:41:17  <Rubidium> good :)
16:41:26  <Rubidium> as that's how the RPM thingy works
16:41:30  <planetmaker> yep
16:41:46  <Rubidium> just not installing the docs locally; the distribution happened with docs, so according to the license
16:41:52  <Rubidium> yay for fair use and such :)
16:42:07  <planetmaker> :-)
16:42:13  <Ammler> --excludedocs                    do not install documentation
16:42:18  <Ammler> rpm --help ^
16:42:54  <planetmaker> what a user does locally is up to him. If someone wants no licenses, manuals or docs... who cares? He was offered the stuff. And the "having been offered" is the important thing
16:43:05  <Ammler> but today nobody uses rpm directly
16:43:18  <Ammler> and tools like zypper doesn't support that
16:43:45  <planetmaker> right... Anyway. No rain. Shopping to do here :-)
16:43:56  <planetmaker> Talk to you later :-)
16:51:22  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Bug #1332: Separate names for binary and source distribution (Ammler) @
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16:59:40  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Patch #1339 (New): Documentation fixes (frosch) @
17:04:10  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Feature #1333: Add separate install dir for documentation files (Ammler) @
17:11:24  <Ammler> I would add frosch123 as dev :-)
17:14:55  <frosch123> don't expect more :)
17:15:56  <frosch123> he, i do know neither python nor nml :)
17:35:03  <Alberth> A certain sysop wants all OpenTTD devs to work on nml :)
17:36:04  <planetmaker> :-P
17:36:09  <planetmaker> choose one, Alberth :-P
17:37:12  <Alberth> s/ certain \(sysop\)/ll s/     :)
17:38:24  <planetmaker> damn. Internal parse error... I need a manual
17:38:29  <planetmaker> :-)
18:12:45  <Alberth> a grammar, I suppose :)
18:13:57  <planetmaker> hm... I guess. Now I do understand the regex :-)
18:14:26  <planetmaker> letting something rest and looking at it anew sometimes helps wonder :-)
18:23:26  <Alberth> you could have tried executing it :)
18:24:21  <planetmaker> I know... lazyness and distraction ;-). And I guessed correctly anyway what it was supposed to mean :-)
18:37:30  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1337: Consider removing Water cargo (andythenorth) @
18:39:12  <andythenorth> no foobar?
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18:53:17  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1337: Consider removing Water cargo (frosch) @
19:15:07  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1338: Sugar Refinery should be named Sugar Beet Factory ... (planetmaker) @
19:19:18  <frosch123> planetmaker: it's also "Zuckerrübenfabrik"
19:20:15  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1293:5be0f4616a56: Fix: restore name for Fishing Harbour (andythenorth) @
19:21:17  <planetmaker> frosch123, I'd not call it that way ...
19:22:09  <planetmaker> I guess I'd call it either "Zuckerfabrik" or "Zuckerrafinerie"
19:22:18  <frosch123> *ff
19:22:28  <planetmaker> :-)
19:22:33  <planetmaker> Maybe I should ask them
19:22:52  <planetmaker> Germany's biggest sugar company has its HQ only 2km from here
19:23:19  <frosch123> i guess there are some regional or historical effects on the naming
19:24:00  <planetmaker> probably also, yes
19:24:20  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1336 (Closed): Name string for Fishing Harbour broken (andythenorth) @
19:36:31  <planetmaker> Ammler, can you build current OpenGFX with an old grfcodec (one of the last DaleStan's one maybe) please?
19:36:50  <planetmaker> I seem to get white pixel reports with that while I don't get it with current one
19:42:25  <Ammler> planetmaker: I would try svn head, is that ok?
19:42:37  <planetmaker> probably. I had still r2177
19:43:04  <planetmaker> Hm... let's see whether that's valid... the monorail_millenium_88.pcx
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19:46:55  <andythenorth> FooBar: hi :)
19:47:10  <FooBar> and a hi to you too :)
19:47:21  <andythenorth> planetmaker: could you pull FIRS and make clean to test I haven't really broken anything (including German translation!)
19:47:32  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1294:6ef97238b7ff: Cleanup: shift industry IDs to use va... (andythenorth) @
19:47:39  <Ammler> ogfx1_base.grf:2986: Warning: 19 of 440 pixels (4%) are pure white
19:47:40  <Ammler> ogfx1_base.grf:2987: Warning: 16 of 544 pixels (2%) are pure white
19:47:41  <Ammler> ogfx1_base.grf:2988: Warning: 70 of 440 pixels (15%) are pure white
19:47:43  <Ammler> ogfx1_base.grf:2989: Warning: 40 of 192 pixels (20%) are pure white
19:47:44  <Ammler> ogfx1_base.grf:2990: Warning: 29 of 440 pixels (6%) are pure white
19:47:46  <Ammler> ogfx1_base.grf:2991: Warning: 16 of 544 pixels (2%) are pure white
19:47:47  <Ammler> ogfx1_base.grf:2992: Warning: 70 of 440 pixels (15%) are pure white
19:47:48  <planetmaker> ok, same here
19:48:01  <planetmaker> now... is it real?
19:48:07  <planetmaker> It seems odd when I look at that file...
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19:52:21  <planetmaker> looks fine so far, andythenorth
19:52:25  <FooBar> looks like we get an r1300 before 0.4-release after all :)
19:52:45  <andythenorth> FooBar: you're going to want to pull ;)
19:53:14  <FooBar> That I ususally do before I start on something
19:53:29  <andythenorth> I don't :(
19:53:39  <FooBar> could you look at #1236 to see what we should do with that?
19:53:39  <Brot6> FooBar: #1236 is "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1236: 1 tile buffer should be ignored when player / scenario builds - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
19:54:14  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1334 (Closed): Code cleanup (andythenorth) @
19:55:27  <planetmaker> Ammler, do you understand the warning of the old version? I think it's not valid. Or am I stupid?
19:55:45  <planetmaker> (I just want to be sure that we don't miss such thing in current build procedures)
19:56:12  <planetmaker> And I'd sleep better that current grfcodec doesn't skip correct white pixels and if that's a bug in the old one :-)
19:56:18  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1296 (Closed): Make sure TT-Foundry pages for FIRS are u... (andythenorth) @
19:56:56  <andythenorth> FooBar: code for 1236 isn't hard to add
19:57:05  <Ammler> <-- does now always show nightly png
19:57:09  <FooBar> I already added half of it
19:57:29  <FooBar> but particularly read my last comment on the matter
19:58:25  <Ammler> I could also update the fb script :-)
19:58:25  <Rubidium> there are pure white pixels there :(
19:58:34  <andythenorth> FooBar if it applies in the scenario editor it's either a bug with your code or in ottd :)
19:59:20  <andythenorth> do you want to paste your code?
19:59:36  <FooBar> well, what I want is that the one tile buffer applies to "many random industries" from the scenario editor, but not for manually constructed industries in the scenario editor
19:59:46  <andythenorth> ah
20:00:17  <FooBar> not having the buffer at all in the sceneditor is easy
20:00:28  <FooBar> but that wasn't what I was looking for ;)
20:00:48  <andythenorth> the same issue applies to existing clustering code
20:00:57  <andythenorth> in scenario editor
20:01:06  <andythenorth> hmm
20:01:13  <andythenorth> it's not within our control
20:01:40  <andythenorth> ask frosch123 if ottd can be changed to support your idea :)
20:01:52  <FooBar> we might want to suggest that OpenTTD returns 00 as player ID on manually constructed industries, while keeping 10h for "many random"
20:02:09  <andythenorth> 'many random industries' should play by same rules as map generator
20:02:29  <Ammler> hehe, French flag on devzone front :-D
20:03:36  <planetmaker> hm?
20:04:32  <planetmaker> <Ammler> <-- does now always show nightly png  <-- coool :-)
20:06:45  <Ammler> also does the auhors script
20:07:00  <andythenorth> FooBar: I have various...ideas
20:07:10  <FooBar> bring 'em on :)
20:07:18  <Ammler>
20:07:21  <planetmaker> Rubidium, are there white pixels in those sprites? That doesn't make sense to me...
20:07:24  <andythenorth> remove water we have discussed
20:07:30  <FooBar> yep, I agree to that
20:07:39  <andythenorth> one free slot :)
20:07:50  <planetmaker> I seem to have no modification in my repo and the colour picker doesn't return the pure white on suspicious pixels and alignment seems to fit...
20:08:01  <FooBar> what are we going to do with that slot?
20:08:07  <andythenorth> introduce Clay
20:08:08  <planetmaker> leave it
20:08:16  <planetmaker> empty
20:08:24  <andythenorth> make Clay accepted by Paper Mill, and new industry - Pottery
20:08:34  <andythenorth> remove Sand from Cement Plant and substitute Clay
20:08:52  <Rubidium> planetmaker: if I select the colour around the sprites I get the some pixels within the trains (millenium pcx)
20:08:58  <FooBar> agreed^3
20:09:31  <andythenorth> other thoughts
20:09:38  <andythenorth> add Brickworks - accepts Sand and Clay
20:09:51  <andythenorth> (could ditch the Pottery in that case)
20:10:04  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but for some reason there are no 0xFF pixels when grfcodec reads it
20:10:28  <FooBar> the pottery could be some sort of blacksmith-equivalent, only in early years
20:10:29  <planetmaker> Rubidium, but the amount like Ammler posted... that makes no sense
20:11:03  <Ammler> planetmaker: if I check the pcx, I have pure white in the image
20:11:05  <andythenorth> FooBar: I also thought of re-adding Cement as a cargo
20:11:09  <planetmaker> and which pixels are selected depends upon the fuzzyness of colour selection...
20:11:10  <planetmaker> hm
20:11:21  <andythenorth> I'm going to do it in an economy in any case, but maybe also for default?
20:11:37  <FooBar> cement eh, then we might need to separate the cement plant and the concrete plant
20:11:41  <andythenorth> it would need to go to a construction yard for combining with gravel
20:11:53  <andythenorth> construction yard could include a concrete casting plant
20:12:02  <FooBar> ok, that sounds fine
20:12:12  <andythenorth> what does it produce?  Goods?
20:12:18  <andythenorth> ENSP?
20:12:23  <planetmaker> With the default colour picker settings I get a few pixels. But when I look at them, they have FCFCFC and not FFFFFF
20:12:25  <FooBar> maybe both
20:12:31  <andythenorth> it would be ok
20:12:42  <andythenorth> so coal -> steel -> ENSP -> mine
20:12:50  <andythenorth> coal -> cement -> ENSP -> mine
20:13:00  <andythenorth> coal -> steel -> goods -> town
20:13:11  <Ammler> planetmaker: indeed
20:13:12  <andythenorth> coal -> cement -> goods -> town
20:13:13  <FooBar> when it comes to ENSP, there's enough of that stuff around
20:13:18  <Ammler> I had threshold at 15
20:13:37  <FooBar> In my current game I don't even transport all that is created
20:13:44  <andythenorth> as long as all the chains producing it are same length, it doesn't matter
20:14:02  <FooBar> I have one oil well up to 1,368,000 liters now :o
20:14:32  <FooBar> it's also the only well on the map, but still...
20:14:36  <andythenorth> you don't have 'Allow primary production to fall' :P
20:14:48  <Ammler> planetmaker: so a bug of old grfcodec?
20:14:50  <planetmaker> yes, 15 is default
20:14:55  <planetmaker> I hope so :-)
20:15:04  <Ammler> silly
20:15:08  <planetmaker> quite
20:15:57  <FooBar> andythenorth: I have r1203 in that game, but also no parameters set. I did notice the well dropping production some time though
20:16:35  <andythenorth> if we add Clay & Cement, we lose two of the free cargo slots
20:16:41  <andythenorth> there would be four free if we sack Water
20:16:42  <planetmaker> Ammler, Rubidium was the some issue with the dimensions of the files in old grfcodecs? The file in question is 399px wide... not divisible by 2 or 4.
20:17:05  <Ammler> oh
20:17:12  <andythenorth> i.e. four slots if we remove Water, then two of those occupied by Clay and Cement
20:17:32  <FooBar> I wonder if we should sack something else as well...
20:17:39  <andythenorth> I looked
20:17:45  <andythenorth> there are a *lot* of farm cargos
20:17:59  <andythenorth> Cotton is currently not in game and I'm not missing it much
20:18:16  <FooBar> like dropping aluminium and changing steel to metal...
20:18:40  <planetmaker> then you drop aluminum ore at the same time
20:18:49  <FooBar> no, we keep bauxite
20:18:54  <planetmaker> what for?
20:18:57  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'm bisecting it
20:18:59  <FooBar> bauxite goes to the aluminium plant and that produces metal
20:19:14  <andythenorth> it's an intriguing idea
20:19:24  <andythenorth> from the point of view of vehicles, they're identical for both cargos
20:19:30  <planetmaker> hm
20:19:31  <FooBar> thing with steel and aluminium is: both are accepted by metal foundry and machine shop, only steel is also accepted by the dock yard
20:19:32  <andythenorth> and the destinations are identical for both cargos
20:19:45  <andythenorth> dock yard doesn't exist yet, and might be a flawed idea :P
20:19:50  *** Westie has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
20:19:54  <FooBar> that's a point.
20:20:07  * andythenorth thinks we don't have scrap aluminium and scrap steel :P
20:20:07  <andythenorth> we have scrap metal
20:20:16  <andythenorth> 'new metal'?
20:20:22  <planetmaker> just metal
20:20:25  <andythenorth> are should that be 'nu metal'
20:20:26  <FooBar> well, in that case, merging steel and aluminium into metal doesn't affect gameplay at all
20:20:31  <andythenorth> no
20:20:38  <andythenorth> I'll miss steel :)
20:20:43  <andythenorth> but it could go
20:20:50  <planetmaker> internally it should remain steel
20:20:57  <FooBar> possibly...
20:21:02  <planetmaker> no new cargo label please
20:21:03  <andythenorth> if beer = food, then it's fair that aluminium = metal
20:21:10  <Westie> Hey, do youse mind helping me with an error I get when starting the latest(!) version of OpenTTD-IS?
20:21:24  <andythenorth> FooBar: we might as well do it soon if we're doing it
20:21:41  <FooBar> true, better before 0.4 than after
20:21:47  <planetmaker> Westie, that depends... we don't know where your problems are
20:21:56  <Westie> nur ein moment
20:21:57  <andythenorth>
20:22:04  <Westie>
20:22:11  <Ammler> planetmaker: I resized the image to 400x40 and now, no white errors anymore
20:22:15  <Westie> Basically, when I start IS, it crashes
20:22:23  <andythenorth> having 'metal' makes a copper add-on easier too...
20:22:31  <Westie> and that's the error log. I don't know anything about the IS mod
20:22:42  <Westie> so I don't know how to intrepret it
20:22:44  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Code Review #1340 (New): Consider consolidating Steel and Alumini... (andythenorth) @
20:22:47  <andythenorth> FooBar: how could we do it without a new cargo label?
20:23:01  <FooBar> then we should keep STEL internally
20:23:15  <Ammler> Westie: where did you get IS from and which version?
20:23:15  <Rubidium> planetmaker: yes, r209 (the scanline thing) is the culprit
20:23:41  <planetmaker> Westie, there's not much _I_ can do about that either; it needs a person with visual studio to get info
20:23:46  <Westie> ah, right
20:23:51  <Westie> anyway, it's 2.1.1 from the repo
20:23:57  <FooBar> but then renaming it "Metal". Maybe add cargo subtypes Steel and Aluminium to it
20:23:57  <planetmaker> Rubidium, but I think current grfcodec trunk is right
20:24:16  <planetmaker> Westie, maybe you can attach the crash report (crash.*) in an issue to the project?
20:24:34  <planetmaker> Then it can be looked at, if and when it gets picked up again
20:24:55  <planetmaker> Keeping known bugs is a good thing :-)
20:24:57  <FooBar> yes, we should stick to STEL, that keeps vehicle sets compatible without problems
20:25:10  <andythenorth> make it so :)
20:25:10  <planetmaker> FooBar, cargo subtypes is nice indeed
20:25:21  * andythenorth dislikes cargo subtypes
20:25:23  <Westie> for some odd reason, I wonder if NewGRFs are causing the problem!
20:25:33  <Westie> no they're not.
20:25:35  <andythenorth> I have no rational reason, or if I do, I forget it
20:25:42  <andythenorth> I think cargo subtypes confuse players
20:25:56  <andythenorth> they go looking for a wagon that refits to 'Goods (Cars)'
20:26:01  <planetmaker> How do you know they're not, Westie ?
20:26:10  <Westie> Because I removed their entries from the config
20:26:14  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I disagree
20:26:23  <Westie> and then started OpenTTD-IS
20:26:25  <FooBar> we need not add those subtypes. It also just eats strings without adding to gameplay
20:26:42  <planetmaker> It adds to eye candy and atmosphere
20:27:10  <FooBar> either way, if we decide to add subtypes, we need to add them everywhere, not just with metal
20:27:51  <Westie> I'll upload the crash dumps in about 10 minutes, thanks people
20:27:58  <andythenorth> it's a translation and support headache
20:28:01  <andythenorth> they're a bad idea
20:28:02  <andythenorth> :)
20:28:16  <planetmaker> thanks for the report, Westie !
20:28:30  <planetmaker> :-( @ andythenorth
20:28:41  <andythenorth> patch your own build :)
20:28:47  <planetmaker> tsk
20:28:48  <FooBar> either way is fine with me
20:29:02  <FooBar> so I guess there will be no cargo subtypes :P
20:29:11  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1340 (Assigned): Consolidate Steel and Aluminium to Metal (andythenorth) @
20:29:11  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1340 (Assigned): Consolidate Steel and Aluminium to Metal (foobar) @
20:29:31  <planetmaker> I won't add it, no
20:29:39  <Terkhen> yeah, requiring different wagons for the same cargo would be confusing
20:30:12  <Terkhen> if that's not an issue, I don't mind subtypes either
20:30:17  <planetmaker> Terkhen, but that's not what a cargo subtype does. Or am I wrong?
20:30:29  <Terkhen> I don't know for sure either :)
20:30:37  <planetmaker> It just adds a text which says what type of food, metal or whatever that is
20:30:51  <Rubidium> planetmaker: oh, my gimp wasn't configured correctly and that's why it showed white pixels
20:30:53  <Terkhen> besides standard industries I have only played with FIRS and a bit with PBI
20:31:06  <Terkhen> and my knowlegde of the specs is still very lacking
20:31:18  <planetmaker> Rubidium, :-) Obviously I failed to communicate that
20:31:25  * Terkhen should solve that some day
20:32:13  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> With the default colour picker settings I get a few pixels. But when I look at them, they have FCFCFC and not FFFFFF <-- at 22:12
20:32:15  <frosch123> planetmaker: if the images has a width of 399 pixels, does the old grfcodec encode it correcltyß
20:32:24  <frosch123> or are the sprites slanted?
20:32:35  <planetmaker> I don't recall having issues
20:32:43  <planetmaker> And I used an old grfcodec when doing the trains
20:33:29  <frosch123> are the generated .grf identical?
20:34:56  <planetmaker> good question...
20:35:20  <planetmaker> old: ogfx1_base.grf     = 1496d491d78915a667a1e28039333658
20:36:20  <planetmaker> new: ogfx1_base.grf     = 1c12934b0c6699e7c9a523cc3b8dff90
20:36:26  <planetmaker> hm
20:37:12  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1341 (New): Consider adding Clay cargo, Claypit industry (andythenorth) @
20:37:12  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1342 (New): Consider adding Cement cargo, Construction Y... (andythenorth) @
20:38:59  <planetmaker> ?!!! How can opengfx.obg have the same md5sum, if the line enclosed, naming ogfx1_base.grf differs?!!
20:40:26  <Rubidium> because you md5sumed the wrong file in (at least) one of the two times?
20:40:46  <Rubidium> *or* you're the lucky one that accidentally found an md5 collision
20:40:54  <planetmaker> hm... actually... opengfx.obg should not be part of the files mentioned there
20:40:54  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1341 (New): Consider adding Clay cargo, Claypit industry (andythenorth) @
20:40:54  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1343 (New): Consider removing Cotton cargo (andythenorth) @
20:40:59  <planetmaker> BUG! in the build script
20:41:43  <planetmaker> It can't have a self-referencing md5sum. At least not that easily ;-)
20:42:20  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1342 (New): Consider adding Cement cargo, Construction Y... (andythenorth) @
20:43:08  <FooBar> Polish for "metal" anyone?
20:43:20  <planetmaker>
20:43:58  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1338 (Rejected): Sugar Refinery should be named Sugar Be... (andythenorth) @
20:44:41  <FooBar> well, Wikipedia gave me a disambiguation page, so I don't know if google will come up with the correct context, as wikipedia didn't either...
20:44:53  <planetmaker> oh :-)
20:45:04  <andythenorth> FooBar: what do you think of removing Cotton, or at least saving it for an Economy
20:45:26  <andythenorth> it is an important economic cargo, but there are lots of farm cargos already
20:45:34  <FooBar> possible...
20:45:57  <FooBar> I still think cotton should replace wool in tropic and be done with that... but that doesn't work with your import scheme :P
20:47:12  <planetmaker> cotton in tropic replacing wool kinda makes sense
20:47:38  <FooBar> the farm cargos are fun though. Have lots of trucks transfer to a rail station and then find that livestock wagons are unavailable when you need even more trains, so now there's thousands of cows on the platforms :P
20:48:22  * Terkhen agrees
20:48:31  <planetmaker> Yep. The farms and their related stuff is one of the big plus here
20:48:41  <planetmaker> Also my favourite stuff to tend to
20:48:49  <FooBar> Terkhen: metal in Spanish is just metal, right?
20:49:24  <Terkhen> yes
20:49:40  <andythenorth> I stick to my one word argument about Wool in Tropic: Australia :P
20:50:15  <planetmaker> what was that argument?
20:50:23  <FooBar> Australia :P
20:50:24  <Terkhen> but if you remove aluminium and steel strings the new "metal" string should show up at the script and I would correct it next time I do something with FIRS
20:50:31  <planetmaker> your removal request does not state anything there...
20:51:15  <frosch123> planetmaker: the cropping differs
20:51:21  <FooBar> Terkhen: I'm correcting all strings straight away, renamed the Aluminium strings to Metal. Removing or fixing them straight away doesn't make much of a difference :)
20:51:21  <planetmaker> hm
20:51:31  <Terkhen> okay
20:52:06  <FooBar> only Polish is a bit of a problem, as my knowledge about Polish metal is a bit rusty...
20:52:12  <planetmaker> FooBar, Terkhen same gender for metal in Spanish?
20:52:23  <planetmaker> or doesn't that make a difference?
20:52:23  <andythenorth> puns of that class make me want to go to bed :P
20:52:44  <andythenorth> FooBar: if your metal is rusty, trying some polish on it :P
20:52:55  <planetmaker> outch....
20:52:58  * FooBar laughs ass off
20:53:04  <andythenorth> brrr
20:53:10  <Terkhen> same gender for steel, aluminum and metal
20:53:11  <planetmaker> that's definitely 10€ in the bad pun box ;-)
20:53:14  <Terkhen> :)
20:53:22  <andythenorth> FooBar started it
20:53:33  <FooBar> no, I didn't...
20:53:38  <FooBar> at least, I didn't want to...
20:53:52  <FooBar> well, the rusty <=> metal joke, but not the polish...
20:54:09  <FooBar> where can I donate?
20:54:19  <andythenorth> what's left in 0.4?
20:54:28  <andythenorth> map colours are boring to fix
20:54:35  <andythenorth> the world needs more colours
20:54:39  <andythenorth> or fewer colour blind people
20:54:57  <planetmaker>
20:55:00  <andythenorth> hmm incomplete cargo chains
20:55:05  <FooBar> maybe reduce the number of industries, that should leave enough colours
20:55:16  <andythenorth> maybe we could consolidate some
20:55:23  <FooBar> maybe we need a colourblind person to figure out the colours
20:55:35  <andythenorth> how about the following consolidations: "Primary Industry", "Secondary Industry"
20:55:41  <FooBar> hmmm...
20:55:45  <FooBar> that could work
20:56:00  <FooBar> the we just need a "goods factory" and a "food factory" and be done with that
20:56:13  <FooBar> maybe consolidate that as well...
20:56:16  <planetmaker> FIRS basic
20:56:20  <Terkhen> cure for colour blindness in 0.4 would be useful indeed
20:56:23  <andythenorth> FIRS dumbass
20:56:34  <FooBar> maybe don't have industries at all, just passengers and mail
20:56:36  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I've tried the best I can with current settings
20:56:48  <andythenorth> can you suggest improvements?
20:56:49  <planetmaker> FooBar, and a mail distribution centre :-)
20:57:01  <planetmaker> accepts mail. Produces mail at a rate of 90%
20:57:03  <planetmaker> :-P
20:57:05  <FooBar> yes, but implemented as house though
20:57:09  <planetmaker> loss is everywhere :-P
20:57:10  <Terkhen> I'd have to play a game for that... I haven't played in months :/
20:57:33  <FooBar> mail distribution centre might not be a bad industry actually...
20:57:48  <FooBar> it's simple, but might be fun if you want to use trucks and such
20:57:54  *** thgergo has quit IRC
20:58:10  <Terkhen> but with different colour schemes they should be ok
20:58:41  <Terkhen> only the colour of iron ore mines gave me problems IIRC, and only in the classic green scheme
20:59:36  <planetmaker> <-- FooBar maybe it helps
20:59:37  <Webster> Title: Colorbrewer: Color Advice for Maps (at
20:59:43  <planetmaker> but it only helps with 9 different colours...
20:59:53  <andythenorth> we should come back to mail another time
20:59:56  <planetmaker> Though...
21:00:08  <planetmaker> Do that for three different colours and it might be fine
21:00:50  <andythenorth> you also have to account for: 3x map colours, town buildings, town roads, and water :)
21:00:58  <planetmaker> I know
21:01:02  <Westie> found my problem from earlier - it was OpenSFX
21:01:11  <planetmaker> OpenSFX?!
21:01:22  <andythenorth> and whether you want to preserve the 'classic' colours from TTD for industries copied from original
21:01:23  <Westie> I must have added it by mistake
21:01:35  <planetmaker> Is it also problematic in plain OpenTTD 1.0.3?
21:01:50  <planetmaker> Or recent nightly?
21:02:01  <Westie> Err, let me check
21:02:16  <planetmaker> Adding it should be no mistake... it should be a pleasure :-P
21:02:30  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1260 (Feedback): Adjust various map colours (foobar) @
21:02:42  <Westie> lmfao planetmaker
21:03:22  <andythenorth> consolidating to Metal also frees some industry slots :)
21:03:33  <andythenorth> (input cargo slots)
21:04:30  <Westie> Doesn't look like it causes a problem
21:05:16  <planetmaker> good :-)
21:05:31  <andythenorth> Machine Shop can now accept another cargo, such as Goods, or MNSP
21:05:33  <FooBar> andythenorth: yes, it does free some slots at the machine shop and the metal foundry
21:06:05  <andythenorth> I'll see if the foundry needs any other cargos
21:06:07  <FooBar> however, I don't think that the machine shop should require mnsp: then you need mnsp to create ensp and fmsp
21:06:37  <Westie> Yeah, it's definitely OpenSFX causing the problem
21:06:42  <Westie> just keep that in your mind
21:06:43  <Westie> :P
21:07:02  <planetmaker> :-)
21:07:17  <planetmaker> That's actually good news
21:07:20  <planetmaker> It will be a bug which is gone when the patch is updated :-)
21:07:33  <Westie> woo!
21:07:37  <planetmaker> looks like an old trunk bug...
21:07:56  <andythenorth> Foundry could accept sand (for casting) or chemicals
21:08:01  <andythenorth> or nothing
21:08:10  <planetmaker> electricity
21:08:20  <andythenorth> bah
21:08:20  <planetmaker> :-P
21:08:44  <andythenorth> FooBar: Machine Shop isn't combinatory, so MNSP could be ok?
21:08:58  * andythenorth thinks
21:09:32  <FooBar> I'm not sure
21:09:54  <andythenorth> Sandpit -> Glassworks -> MNSP
21:09:59  <FooBar> I don't think we need to boost the production of any of the supplies
21:10:11  <andythenorth> is it the boosting aspect that bothers you?
21:10:20  <andythenorth> substituting Goods would be identical
21:10:30  <andythenorth> except for boosting element
21:10:42  <FooBar> well, there's already enough farm and engineering supplies, that need not be boosted
21:11:07  <andythenorth> in all other industries, MNSP is a booster
21:11:18  <planetmaker> I find those two cargos incredibly hard to translate nicely :-(
21:11:31  <FooBar> true, but those industries don't directly generate other booster cargo's
21:11:31  <andythenorth> Goods would be an acceptable substitute, but it's not accepted by any other industries
21:12:03  <andythenorth> hmm
21:12:09  <andythenorth> so options would be:
21:12:16  <planetmaker> circle?
21:12:35  <andythenorth> (1) accept MNSP at Machine Shop (non-boosting) but doesn't fit with MNSP mechanic in rest of set
21:12:46  <planetmaker> nope. Rejected :-P
21:12:46  <FooBar> don't like that
21:12:50  <andythenorth> (2) accept Goods at Machine Shop, but Goods not accepted by any other industry
21:12:55  <andythenorth> (3) something else
21:12:57  <FooBar> possible
21:13:08  * FooBar looks into (3)
21:13:09  <andythenorth> I like the idea of, e.g. windscreens being shipped to Machine Shop
21:13:31  <Rubidium> planetmaker: you like?
21:13:32  <planetmaker> then you should call it vehicle factory :-)
21:13:52  <FooBar> hmmm... there's not much else...
21:14:08  <andythenorth> most of the cargos are primary :)
21:14:23  <andythenorth> Tyres :P
21:14:25  <FooBar> yes, and we just dropped a secondary :P
21:14:38  <Rubidium> planetmaker: param 0x7E gets the version number, but only when reading another GRF file's parameters
21:14:46  <planetmaker> looks good :-) Access to it via var 0xFE?
21:15:12  <andythenorth> Machine Shop could just have two cargos
21:15:19  <andythenorth> as could Metal Foundry
21:15:36  <planetmaker> right 0x80 offset
21:15:43  <FooBar> true, let's keep it at that and see if it needs changing later
21:16:04  <FooBar> I somehow don't seem to be able to change a TTD default string...
21:16:06  <Rubidium> uhm... s/0x7E/0xFE/
21:16:20  * Rubidium shouldn't mess up so much
21:16:21  <FooBar> is that not possible for language FF?
21:16:41  <frosch123> planetmaker: this channel is a bit spammy, so i don't know whether someone already found the issue :p however ogfx tip encoded with grfcodec r208 and with tip, differ only in sprites 2985-2992. and they differ exactly by the thing which was fixed in r209. so, current grfcodec is fine.
21:17:00  <andythenorth> so we keep Cotton?
21:17:07  <FooBar> if you want
21:17:11  <andythenorth> I don't mind
21:17:15  <andythenorth> I'd happily remove it
21:17:22  <planetmaker> frosch123, I didn't know the cause so far. Thanks :-)
21:17:22  <andythenorth> in favour of a free slot
21:17:41  <FooBar> I'm neither in favour nor against
21:17:54  <frosch123> just take a look at those sprites encoded with the old grfcodec, they are slanted/completely broken
21:19:42  <andythenorth> I propose restricting Cotton to certain economies
21:19:49  <andythenorth> I'd rather have Cement
21:20:20  <andythenorth> it's already Tropic only, so no big loss
21:22:09  * planetmaker finds cement not... that interesting
21:23:27  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1340 (Closed): Consolidate Steel and Aluminium to Metal (andythenorth) @
21:23:27  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1343 (Closed): Consider removing Cotton cargo (andythenorth) @
21:23:27  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1343: Consider removing Cotton cargo (andythenorth) @
21:23:27  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1343 (Closed): Consider removing Cotton cargo (andythenorth) @
21:23:29  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1295:4282e94f43d0: Feature: consolidate aluminium and st... (foobar) @
21:23:33  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1340 (Closed): Consolidate Steel and Aluminium to Metal (foobar) @
21:23:58  <andythenorth> planetmaker: is that 'cement not interesting' or 'cement less interesting than cotton'?
21:24:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1296:e12ed4211fe5: Fix (r1259): don't lie about what fea... (foobar) @
21:25:08  <FooBar> I think cement can be at least as interesting as cotton
21:25:36  <FooBar> but it's not /that/ interesting, as basically it's just some type of goods
21:25:57  <FooBar> basically everyting is some type of goods...
21:26:09  <andythenorth> yup
21:26:11  <andythenorth> and nope
21:26:14  <andythenorth> :P
21:26:52  <FooBar> still, I don't see why I can't translate a default string...
21:27:03  <FooBar> Or was it that you can't translate default strings in OpenTTD...
21:27:10  <FooBar> it might be that...
21:27:20  * andythenorth wonders if cement plant produces anything besides cement
21:28:14  <FooBar> maybe the steel mill can produce slag and have that accepted by the cement plant...
21:28:32  <andythenorth> I had that thought :)
21:28:38  <FooBar> of fly ash
21:28:45  <andythenorth> from the non-existent power station :)
21:29:07  <andythenorth> slag and fly ash can also be used in concrete casting?
21:29:35  <FooBar> they're used in cement
21:31:00  <andythenorth> and as an additive to concrete blocks etc :)
21:31:02  <Webster> Title: Fly ash - The Concrete Centre (at
21:31:20  <FooBar> there's blastfurnace cement as well as flyash cement
21:32:01  <andythenorth>
21:32:15  <andythenorth> maybe the steel mill could produce cement directly :o
21:32:27  <Terkhen> that'd be confusing
21:32:35  <FooBar> it's not very common
21:32:52  <FooBar> also, I like the looks of the cement plant
21:33:14  <andythenorth> oh I'd keep that :)
21:33:20  <FooBar> good :)
21:33:32  <planetmaker> andythenorth: cement IMHO needs quite a bit of rework of what follows to become interesting
21:33:50  <andythenorth> ideas?
21:33:55  <planetmaker> alone in the current scheme... what does it deliver to?
21:34:16  <andythenorth> currently goods -> town
21:34:31  <planetmaker> that's boring. Too often ;-)
21:34:53  <andythenorth> so cement -> construction yard -> town (goods) / primary industry (ENSP)
21:35:05  <andythenorth> but ideally, *newgrf town cargos* :P
21:35:07  <planetmaker> Like a mason
21:35:45  <planetmaker> or hardware store or a road construction depot
21:35:53  <andythenorth> all of those :)
21:36:13  * andythenorth ponders an OTTD patch for FIRS town growth cargos
21:36:15  <planetmaker> It would be nice, if there could be sub-industry types
21:36:26  <planetmaker> Like... same thing, just different name and looks
21:36:26  <andythenorth> such as?
21:36:39  <planetmaker> mason and hardware store could accept the same
21:36:46  <planetmaker> but different sprites and name
21:37:04  <andythenorth> like Retail Market and General Store in current FIRS?
21:37:04  <planetmaker> Just different industry layout
21:37:08  <andythenorth> same industry ID?
21:37:12  <frosch123> planetmaker: there is already a name callback for houses, but you will get trouble in the minimap
21:37:12  <planetmaker> probably
21:37:24  <andythenorth> minimap is why I didn't do that already
21:37:27  <planetmaker> frosch123: map doesn#t need to differ IMHO
21:37:37  <planetmaker> if the effect is the same...
21:37:49  <frosch123> there is also a legend, not only the colour
21:38:01  <andythenorth> if minimap showed accepted / produced cargos, not industry names, then the world would be a better place
21:38:13  <planetmaker> well, yes. But that could list them separately, with just the same colour attached
21:38:23  <andythenorth> so different IDs?
21:38:29  <planetmaker> I wouldn't
21:38:34  <planetmaker> Well. One could
21:38:36  <planetmaker> If there's space
21:39:08  <andythenorth> we're currently ok for industries
21:39:15  <andythenorth> I murdered a few today
21:39:38  <planetmaker> well...
21:40:02  <andythenorth> there's only 44 in current (0.4)
21:41:05  <FooBar> use IDs now and consolidate later :)
21:41:06  <planetmaker> well. Don't add too many... KISS ;-)
21:41:24  <andythenorth> I think the genie is out of that particular bottle
21:41:31  <andythenorth> "we're not in kansas anymore"
21:41:37  <planetmaker> Add one: municipal road maintenance department
21:41:56  <FooBar> there should be some coloured boxes left...
21:43:01  <andythenorth> planetmaker: suggest it on devzone
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21:43:18  <FooBar> shall I do the remove of water as well?
21:43:19  <andythenorth> FooBar: so STEL remains for metal?
21:43:21  <planetmaker> you're writing it now anyway, do you? ;-)
21:43:24  <FooBar> andythenorth: yes
21:43:31  <FooBar> it's just called Metal now
21:43:34  <andythenorth> I'll update tt-foundry
21:43:48  <andythenorth> Water needs testing.  Might have unanticipated consequences
21:44:03  <planetmaker> keep it till after 0.4
21:44:16  <FooBar> ok
21:44:40  <FooBar> I tested that desert towns can require goods as growth cargo just fine
21:45:16  <andythenorth> is it fun?
21:45:47  <frosch123> planetmaker: you are right, the minimap and fund industry window could use the action4 text which has comma like "Brewery, Bakery", while the actual industry instances use a callback to return "Brewery" or "Bakery" depending on the layout
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21:46:56  <FooBar> andythenorth: it's just as fun as delivering goods to a town. Alternatively, we could have desert towns require petrol instead of water
21:47:10  <andythenorth> might as well be goods
21:47:23  <andythenorth> petrol not available pre (some date)
21:47:24  <FooBar> I thought so too
21:50:18  <planetmaker> hm... it's not possible to change the town effect cargo during the game, right?
21:51:09  <andythenorth> stupid Mac.  Just crashed
21:52:16  <andythenorth> FooBar: if you want to commit removal of water feel free
21:52:23  <andythenorth> wonder if players will freak?
21:52:40  <andythenorth> also implies removing water plant / tower
21:52:47  <FooBar> yep
21:52:59  <FooBar> I don't have anything to commit, but I can create that :P
21:53:24  <planetmaker> oh... FooBar you can test for TTRS version now ;-)
21:53:26  <FooBar> pm might freak, as he rather has water removed after 0.4...
21:53:47  <andythenorth> I'm easy either way
21:53:51  <FooBar> I can? Neat :)
21:54:06  <planetmaker> r20765 :-)
21:54:17  <FooBar> well, let's keep water for now then
21:54:36  <FooBar> hmmm... then FIRS must require r20765 and doesn't work with stable any more :o
21:54:44  <FooBar> wonder if players will freak?
21:55:08  <planetmaker> andythenorth: water is a big industry in fact. Just remove the imagination that you move it by the cubic meter, rather by the bottle
21:55:12  <planetmaker> as mineral water
21:55:25  <andythenorth> I've thought of that before
21:55:27  <Ammler> FooBar: only for the version check
21:55:34  <andythenorth> water could easily be in other climates
21:55:40  <Ammler> so it still works with 1.0, but nobody tells about
21:55:41  <andythenorth> might as well be Food though
21:56:02  <planetmaker> FooBar: dunno... what happens when testing an unknown var?
21:56:18  <FooBar> it usually returns FF
21:56:32  <FooBar> or as many Fses as your var is big
21:56:34  <planetmaker> Rubidium: can you tell? What if I checked that newgrf version in, say 1.0.3? Nothing, i.e. 0?
21:57:00  * andythenorth had one of these when younger
21:57:03  <planetmaker> or would that check need guarding against the version?
21:57:15  <andythenorth> France is not in Tropic zone far as I know
21:57:29  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it should return 0
21:57:38  <planetmaker> nice :-)
21:57:45  <FooBar> neat
21:57:48  <andythenorth> r20765 looks somewhat in the future :o
21:58:02  <planetmaker> :-P
21:58:10  <planetmaker> r20675 ;-)
21:58:35  <FooBar> then FIRS shouldn't require nightly per se, but only if you want to use TTRS with it
21:58:48  <FooBar> I'll add that then, but most likely not today...
21:59:07  * andythenorth feels sleepy time approaching
21:59:14  <planetmaker> FooBar: also not. But it should just fail to work with old TTRS
21:59:27  <planetmaker> which means any TTRS in current stable
21:59:31  <planetmaker> but that's fine
22:00:02  <planetmaker> Just test for the version. And if it's <7(?) create an error
22:00:14  <FooBar> well, yes, that's what I meant as well.
22:00:18  <planetmaker> :-)
22:00:41  <planetmaker> 4 more months or so and there'll be anyway OpenTTD 1.1-beta1 or so
22:01:02  <FooBar> only 4?
22:01:10  <planetmaker> My bet is on December
22:01:49  <FooBar> hmmm, I didn't know they started beta's so early, as the release is usually on april 1st
22:02:02  <planetmaker> at least last time :-)
22:02:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1344 (Assigned): Only allow TTRS based on Action14 version (foobar) @
22:03:12  <planetmaker> <-- history
22:03:37  <planetmaker> 0.7 was considerably shorter, though
22:03:40  <FooBar> 0.7.0 beta was released only in february...
22:03:44  <FooBar> yes, that :P
22:03:55  <FooBar> then 0.6 in november
22:05:05  <FooBar> so I think it depends mostly on if a major feature is about due or not
22:05:17  <FooBar> roadtypes would be nice
22:05:38  <Rubidium> having a longer beta cycle definitely helps finding bugs and the like before we go release candidate
22:06:47  <FooBar> oh certainly, but I think you would hold a beta release if some major feature could be included by waiting, say, another month
22:07:55  <andythenorth> good night
22:08:02  <FooBar> good night
22:08:25  <FooBar> also, automatic refit if a certain cargo is selected in the purchase menu would be nice
22:18:00  <planetmaker> FooBar: I would not count that the beta would wait
22:18:06  <planetmaker> good night andythenorth
22:18:44  <planetmaker> it could then still be part of the next beta :-)
22:18:49  <FooBar> I'm not counting ;) The devs should do what they think is best
22:19:06  <planetmaker> yup :-)
22:23:12  <FooBar> also, I think it's best that I go to bed now...
22:23:14  <FooBar> good night!
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22:27:29  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1337: Remove Water cargo (foobar) @
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22:49:10  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Feature #839: 4737-4742: Fizzy drink factory (athanasios) @
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23:17:54  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 514:fb223c9ef16b: Fix: [Makefile] Don't try to include the md5sum of the descr... (planetmaker) @
23:19:34  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 170:fd31574fd96a: Fix: [obg] Don't try to include the md5sum of... (planetmaker) @
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23:49:07  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 171:e456330181e9: Change: Make the subdir installed to configur... (planetmaker) @
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23:59:09  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 515:ed047aacb148: Fix: [Makefile] Circular dependency (planetmaker) @

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