Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 4th May 2011:
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05:12:50  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 619:2bdb406560fa: Add: rendered source files for utility tug medium (andythenorth) @
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10:45:48  <Ammler> planetmaker: are you able to answer my question from ogfx thread: "Edit: why isn't that a bug? 32px on the map, 28px in the depot view, I have quite troubles to see sense here."
10:50:09  <Ammler> I also wonder, wouldn't fixing the length on the map also fix the "growing bug"?
10:53:33  <planetmaker> Ammler, while that certainly is the preferred solution, it's something which will certainly break lots of newgrfs.
10:54:06  <Ammler> which is no harm if it fixes a bug, is it
10:54:42  <Ammler> could we make a patch to test that at least?
10:54:43  <Yexo> in this case is it, as it makes those newgrfs behave differently between ttdpatch and openttd for no good reason
10:55:00  <Yexo> that is, if newgrfs are really affected
10:56:13  <Ammler> Yexo: maybe possible to keep a "legacy mode", but first we would need to know, if it is worth to even think about :-)
10:58:45  <Ammler> I always thought, it would need to resize the sprites, but as it seems this would not be the case
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11:00:30  <planetmaker> possibly it could be introduced as a per-grf setting
11:00:48  <Yexo> there is already a per-grf setting
11:01:29  <Ammler> planetmaker: as said, first I would test, _if_ that really is able to fix the issue
11:02:24  <Ammler> is that length (32px) somewhere hardcoded constant?
11:02:30  <Yexo> yes
11:02:34  <planetmaker> the default: yes
11:02:49  <Ammler> hmm, can you tell me where?
11:03:05  <Yexo> start by grepping for GMB_TRAIN_WIDTH_32_PIXELS and go from there
11:03:09  <Yexo> I don't know the exact line
11:05:10  <Ammler> I find that in newgrf.cpp only
11:05:17  <planetmaker> newgrf.h gives the bit
11:05:26  <Ammler> yep
11:05:36  <planetmaker> and it tells GRFFile::traininfo_vehicle_width
11:05:39  <Ammler> does that also infect the default?
11:05:52  <Yexo> that's a per-grf value
11:05:56  <Yexo> newgrf.cpp:6046
11:06:05  <Yexo> it changes _cur_grffile->traininfo_vehicle_width based on that bit
11:06:08  <planetmaker> Thus by default it's not set, thus not 32px
11:06:19  <planetmaker> it could be an extension for NFO v8
11:06:29  <planetmaker> just dropping that bit
11:06:33  <Ammler> planetmaker: can we ignore newgrf for now
11:06:39  <planetmaker> Ammler, no
11:06:43  <Yexo> why? just allow the baseset to set that bit and use it for the baseset vehicles
11:06:50  <Ammler> and first check, if that has influence at all?
11:07:00  <Yexo> Ammler: it has
11:07:06  <Yexo> newgrfs depend on that bit
11:07:08  <Ammler> Yexo: the original set is also buggy
11:07:17  <Ammler> so it wouldn't be something for opengfx only
11:07:23  <planetmaker> Yexo, I guess we'll need a list of settings which base grfs should also get access to.
11:07:33  <planetmaker> Could it make sense to add that to the extra grf?
11:07:44  <planetmaker> Or an additional 'info' file?
11:07:49  <Ammler> ah, you don't get me :-(
11:07:56  <Yexo> if original is also buggy it could be changed to use 32 instead of 28 px for non-grf vehicles, leaving 28px as default for newgrf vehicles
11:08:00  <planetmaker> Ammler, The original set is drawn in 28px
11:08:13  <planetmaker> that can't be changed
11:08:25  <Ammler> planetmaker: but 32px on the map, isn't?
11:08:29  <planetmaker> no
11:08:44  <planetmaker> the sprites are 28px. Still they occupy 32px on the map, yes
11:08:46  <planetmaker> But original has gaps
11:08:53  <planetmaker> s/original/TTD/
11:09:24  <Ammler> quote from you: "And in depots it's cut down to 28px, no matter if it's longer or not, a size cannot be defined, on tracks it will use 32px"
11:09:38  <planetmaker> 32px spacing
11:09:52  <Ammler> yep, I want reduce that spacing
11:09:57  <planetmaker> no, that not
11:10:06  <Yexo> spacing on the map cannot be reduced
11:10:11  <planetmaker> the full length sprites are 32px. And that won't and can't be reduced
11:10:17  <Ammler> why?
11:10:26  <planetmaker> it breaks really _very_ train set
11:10:30  <planetmaker> since the dawn of ages
11:10:35  <planetmaker> *every
11:10:37  <Yexo> not only that, it brakes every old savegame
11:10:39  <Ammler> as said, I would like to ignroe newgrfs for now
11:10:48  <Yexo> making saves between opengfx and original basesets incompatible
11:11:02  <Yexo> Ammler: ignoring newgrfs for now is pointless, you have to take them into account anyway
11:11:05  <planetmaker> Ammler, the length of wagons is not subject to change
11:11:17  <Ammler> Yexo: I would like to know, if that would fix the issue, that's all
11:11:21  <planetmaker> it's defined, it impacts path finder, collision detection etc pp
11:11:26  <Yexo> the only thing that can be changed is the spacing in depots and the actual sprites
11:11:39  <Ammler> just for my own curiosity :-)
11:11:42  <Yexo> currently the spacing in depots is 28px, that could be changed for the baseset to 32px
11:12:03  <Yexo> or the baseset sprites could be make smaller so they don't overlap with 28px, but that means they'll have gaps on the map where they're drawn with 32px spacing
11:12:39  <planetmaker> opengfx actually is inconsistent with the wagon length currently. Some are 32px (rail), some are 28px (maglev)
11:13:15  <planetmaker> however: the length on the maps really cannot be changed. It breaks as much as one can break
11:13:31  <planetmaker> also saves without newgrfs are then broken
11:14:20  <planetmaker> hm, well. I'll check whether I can actually already achieve 32px depot view... Later tonight
11:14:52  <Ammler> so just in theory, can I change that spacing?
11:15:05  <Ammler> if I don't care about save compatibilty and newgrfs
11:15:19  <Yexo> Ammler: of course, in theory you can change everything :)
11:15:42  <Yexo> but I'm not going to spend time trying to find out how since it's pointless
11:15:43  <Ammler> Yexo: this talk reminds me of the talk about client limits
11:16:01  <Ammler> as I had to prove the devs, that is possible :-P
11:16:23  <planetmaker> Ammler, changing the depot view is of no consequence to anything MP or savegame relevance. That's feasible without much thought on those issues. It's display only
11:17:02  <Ammler> planetmaker: yep, but the other would also fix a "unresolvealbe" bug, that would be quite cool
11:17:17  <planetmaker> Ammler, nope, that's a different issue
11:17:25  <Yexo> Ammler: which bug would that fix?
11:17:34  <Ammler> Yexo: trains growth
11:17:35  <planetmaker> That issue is that the / and \ view need actually to be SHORTER
11:18:27  <Ammler> Yexo: it is the most famous unresolveable bug, I think
11:18:51  <Yexo> perhaps, I don't see how changing the length of vehicles on the map fixes that though
11:19:18  <Ammler> yep, I know, you guys need to see it until you believe, well me too
11:19:26  <Ammler> so I would like to test it :-)
11:20:16  <Yexo> Ammler: if you change the length of the default vehicles to 28px, the length in the / and \ view need to be adjusted by exactly as much
11:20:26  <Yexo> so it doesn't change the relative lengths of the _ and / views
11:20:36  <Ammler> the point is even not
11:20:47  <Ammler> the _ view is longer as the others
11:20:57  <Ammler> that is why the trains growth
11:21:09  <planetmaker> Yexo, the "bug" is that the length in / and \ view is not proportionally adjusted to the -- view. But that is an entirely different issue. Which Ammler mixes in here for no gain IMHO
11:21:26  <Yexo> Ammler: but changing that is different from changing the spacing between the default vehicles
11:21:29  <planetmaker> as they're not really connected and would need separate addressing in any case
11:21:36  <Yexo> as changing the spacing implies changing the spacing in _every_ view
11:22:01  <Yexo> planetmaker: exactly, that's a different issue
11:22:07  <Ammler> why doesn't change spacing not influence length?
11:22:14  <planetmaker> that *might* also be worth addressing. But that needs *much* more thought and testing
11:22:26  <Yexo> which needs a different fix, which probably is also "impossible" to do correct with all existing newgrfs
11:22:56  <Yexo> Ammler: changing spacing needs to be done in every view, as such is does not influence _relative_ length of _ and / views
11:23:02  <planetmaker> Ammler, lengths on map != length in depot
11:23:06  <planetmaker> That's like ships and RV
11:23:14  <Ammler> yepyep
11:23:49  <Ammler> planetmaker: I already got it that it is about spacing and not the length of the sprites
11:24:48  <Ammler> Yexo: maybe it is possible to change the factor from / to - view?
11:25:33  <Yexo> that is possible, but A) it's _very_ hard and B) it might break newgrfs
11:26:36  <Ammler> I already said, I would ignore that for a test, but in any case, you could keep a "legacy mode"
11:26:41  <planetmaker> and C) is unrelated and of more general interest than fixing this base set problem with depots
11:27:09  <Yexo> Ammler: I can understand that, but A) is putting me off from trying it
11:27:11  <planetmaker> With changing the lengths on the maps... not sure a legacy mode can actually be kept
11:27:35  <Ammler> Yexo: I would do that, I just would need a hint, what to search for :-)
11:27:46  <planetmaker> it needs all: PF knowledge, NewGRF knowledge, collision detection
11:28:00  <planetmaker> the latter uses the length on the map
11:28:11  <planetmaker> the PF needs the length on the map
11:28:16  <Yexo> Ammler: I have no idea where to look, other than what planetmaker already says
11:28:17  <planetmaker> and NewGRFs rely on lengths
11:28:26  <Ammler> keep your minds open please, do not always state ideas as impossible, if those aren't from you :-P
11:28:42  <Yexo> I didn't say this one is impossible, I'm just saying it's very hard
11:28:50  <Yexo> in fact so hard that personally I'm not going to try
11:29:17  <Ammler> well, you said similar things about the player limit 3 years ago
11:29:20  <planetmaker> I don't see me succeeding in that neither, by a great length not
11:29:35  <Yexo> I don't remember saying that
11:29:41  <Ammler> you=devs
11:30:21  <Terkhen> you will also need to change how vehicle speed works
11:30:36  <Ammler> Terkhen: yep, that are other ideas about
11:30:50  <Ammler> but I would first just try to reduce the lenght in - view
11:31:08  <Ammler> dunno anymore if | view is also infected
11:31:30  <Yexo> Ammler: if you only shorten the _ view without changing the speed calculation you'll just introduce other bugs
11:31:53  <Ammler> it would basically be a GUI change so I would not bet that much that is would break savegames
11:32:04  <Yexo> but it's not a gui change
11:32:10  <planetmaker> uhm... ^
11:32:16  <Yexo> shortening the _ view means all sprites are drawn closer together
11:32:22  <Yexo> which means the vehicles actually have to be closer
11:32:35  <planetmaker> it breaks all vehicle specs
11:32:38  <Yexo> which makes loading old savegames hard as relative positions have to be recalculated on load
11:32:41  <planetmaker> which state that full length is 32px
11:32:42  <Ammler> Yexo: you might think farer then me
11:32:49  <Yexo> and it breaks all newgrfs that depend on the length
11:33:16  <Ammler> Yexo: every vehicle on a train has it's position saved?
11:33:16  <Yexo> Ammler: I don't see how changing the length of the _ view could be anything smaller
11:33:21  <Yexo> Ammler: yes
11:33:28  <Ammler> ok, then it braks it :-)
11:36:07  <planetmaker> also you can't make it longer: or trains might be overlapping, thus already be crashed
11:36:10  <Ammler> of course, fixing such bug is no mainstream hero thing like yacd, as you need quite croweded (coop) game to reach inpact on it
11:37:13  <Yexo> Ammler: and yet see how many times cargodest has been attempted and failed
11:37:34  <Yexo> but the big difference is that cargodest is actually very doable
11:37:39  <Yexo> it's hard, certainly, but doable
11:37:47  <Ammler> :-)
11:37:57  <Yexo> there are lots of people with (different) ideas on how to do it
11:38:54  <planetmaker> but it's much easier in the respect that it *extends* the game. And not *changes* behaviour
11:39:22  <planetmaker> thus you have much more freedom than with vehicle lengths :-)
11:40:54  <Ammler> as said, I don't need it applied, I just wonder, if it would be possible :-)
11:41:34  <Ammler> train_cmd.cpp is the first file I should look in, right?
11:42:03  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/sub-opengfx registered in Redmine with url /home/hg/sub-opengfx
11:42:03  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/sub-opengfx created
11:44:12  <Ammler> ?
11:44:21  <Ammler> not ogfx-media or something?
11:45:09  <Ammler> sub sounds so less :-)
11:47:25  <planetmaker> I called it sub-gfx
11:47:39  <planetmaker> and it's for testing. I don't want to use the names I might use later for real
11:48:04  <planetmaker> that one is to become just a clone of opengfx
11:48:13  <planetmaker> it's for testing the CF with that
11:49:45  <Ammler> you don't necessary need to make redmine project
11:49:51  <planetmaker> but I want
11:49:55  <Ammler> ok :-)
11:50:07  <planetmaker> if I'm going to test it, I want to test it for real ;-)
11:50:48  <Ammler> well, if it is not working, IMO it might be worth to make it working...
11:51:31  <planetmaker> yes. But also that will need testing. Thus the test repos will come in handy there, too
11:51:52  <planetmaker> I don't want to use the repos of OpenGFX and friends for happy testing and messing-up
11:51:59  <Ammler> yeah, just meant, don't give up, if my CF scripts don't do what you want :-P
11:52:07  <planetmaker> I won't.
11:52:16  <planetmaker> I'll just give you a bug report then :-P
11:52:24  <Ammler> exactly ;-)
11:54:17  <planetmaker> but I really want to make sure any such change will work smoothly and without trouble
11:54:46  <planetmaker> too many people and repos depend and rely on those repos to work
11:55:05  <Ammler> I don't think, it will work on the server without change
11:55:40  <planetmaker> Dunno. Maybe. Maybe not. I'm not yet familiar enough with it
11:55:47  <Ammler> if you clone a repo with subrepos, will the subrepos automatically cloned with?
11:56:00  <planetmaker> dunno ;-)
12:02:01  <Ammler> it doesn't, it needs a update of the main repo
12:02:26  <Ammler> then it should automatically clone/pull what's needed
12:02:39  <Ammler> hmm
12:02:46  <Ammler> then clone might clone those
12:03:00  <planetmaker> clone != checkout
12:05:47  <Ammler> checkout is update
12:46:48  <planetmaker> <-- hm... that stinks like 'Cleanup: Remove unused files' is needed
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15:23:27  <Terkhen> 2cc has too many trains :/
15:25:47  <V453000> many trains would be nice
15:25:53  <V453000> but 2cc set has too many _useless_ trains
15:27:10  <Terkhen> I made a task requesting parameters for selecting certain train types (I'm interested mostly on the metro trains), and there is another one for region parameters
15:27:31  <Terkhen> but that was months ago :P
15:43:20  <V453000> @seen DJNekkid
15:43:20  <Webster> V453000: DJNekkid was last seen in #openttdcoop.devzone 6 weeks, 5 days, 16 hours, 57 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <DJNekkid> for example, the IC pax wagons will be a combination of 2nd class, 1st class, diner and sleeper
15:43:25  <V453000> might be some reason :p
15:43:42  <V453000> I also wanted to tell him that nutracks dont work with 2cc set, despite being recommended
15:44:03  <V453000> guess I will have to post it to the devzone :)
15:49:02  <Terkhen> hmmm... I see
15:49:40  <Terkhen> if it was on nml I would hack a metro only version for myself :P
15:51:00  <V453000> the metroes have too high capacity in my opinion :) a few metroes can supply a load of TGVs
15:51:14  <V453000> true , metroes can be tiny-short :)
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15:51:35  <andythenorth> DJNekkid: BROS think you're AWOL :P
15:51:43  <andythenorth> :D
15:52:22  <Terkhen> V453000: that's why I use them, they are great for city transport :)
15:59:24  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #2579 (New): Incompatibility with nutracks (V453000) @
15:59:24  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #2580 (New): Incompatibility with nutracks (V453000) @
15:59:48  <V453000> oh ffs it is there twice :D
16:00:11  <V453000> planetmaker: could you please remove ? :) thanks
16:07:56  <Yexo> V453000: can't you close it yourself?
16:08:51  <Yexo> anyway, it's gone now
16:09:37  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Feature #1897 (Assigned): Class 365 (welshdragon) @
16:41:21  <V453000> Yexo: I tried, but I couldnt, sorry for inconvenience :) thanks
16:48:11  <planetmaker> Yexo: only admins and project managers can delete topics or change the status from new to <whatever>. Others can't.
16:48:45  <planetmaker> project managers obviously only for their projects
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17:18:30  <Brot6> fish: update from r618 to r619 done -
17:18:42  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r750), 32bpp-extra (r40), ai-admiralai (r75), ai-aroai (r33), ailib-common (r21), ailib-direction (r17), ailib-list (r32), ailib-string (r29), ailib-tile (r16), airportsplus (r73), basecosts (r25), belarusiantowns (r8), bros (r52), chips (r138), comic-houses (r71), firs (r1989), frenchtowns (r6), german-townnames (r33), grfcodec (r828), grfpack (r279), heqs (r605),
17:18:42  <Brot6> indonesiantowns (r41), manindu (r7), metrotrackset (r56), narvs (r37), newgrf_makefile (r285), nml (r1323), nutracks (r186), ogfx-industries (r53), ogfx-landscape (r62), ogfx-rv (r80), ogfx-trains (r239), ogfx-trees (r42), opengfx (r658), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r49), spanishtowns (r10), swedishrails (r202), swisstowns (r22), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r31), ttrs (r36), worldairlinersset (r671)
17:39:30  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #2580: Incompatibility with nutracks (Voyager1) @
17:40:08  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #2580 (Resolved): Incompatibility with nutracks (V453000) @
17:40:08  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #2580 (Resolved): Incompatibility with nutracks (Voyager1) @
19:50:21  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 659:4eac7ea57191: Change: Update the source image for farms and shores (planetmaker) @
19:50:21  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 660:05f731d25dc5: Codechange: Use the same extension for all nml files (planetmaker) @
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20:53:07  <Yexo> <planetmaker> Yexo: only admins and project managers can delete topics or change the status from new to <whatever>. Others can't. <- I wasn't able to change the status, so I just deleted it
20:53:32  <Yexo> at least not without the workaround of making myself manager, changing status, removing myself as manager
20:53:38  <planetmaker> hm, maybe admins can only delete but not edit
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23:55:22  <Ammler> only members can change status
23:55:32  <Ammler> as admin, you aren't member
23:58:24  <Ammler> (members accoding to the workflow)

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