Log for #openttdcoop.stable on 4th January 2014:
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00:04:19  <happy_> hi all
00:05:04  <AnsonMobile> happy, new year
00:05:51  <AnsonMobile> hehe. couldn'skip the joke of adding a comma in this line:-)
00:06:31  <happy_> how things  anson
00:07:13  <coopserver> <Anson> not good, not bad ... just like last year .-)
00:09:10  <coopserver> <Anson> this map looks nice ... and maybe we should do the same with 4x4 identical islands on another map, to give all 15 companies similar chances ...
00:10:46  <coopserver> <Anson> happy, what are those three long argo trains soing ? (124, 150, 151) ?
00:11:53  <happy_> i think to help the goods up
00:12:27  <coopserver> <Anson> they do nothing ... only load and unload on the same station
00:13:03  <happy_> yep  thats the plan
00:13:44  <coopserver> <Anson> trains can not pickup cargo at one station and then deliver it for an industry at the same station ... instead, it will only be unloaded (transfered!) back to the station
00:14:43  <coopserver> <Anson> that's also the reason why i always put a "unload and leave empty / don't take cargo" in the orders
00:14:50  <happy_> the plan   for the long trans  is to help the truks to.load  farster
00:15:54  <coopserver> <Anson> just in case a new resource pops up near a factory : without that order, trains would load and never be able to unload that cargo again, running full all the time, and thus also not being able to pick up cargo at their intended pickup station
00:16:58  <coopserver> <Anson> as i see it, the long trainsmostly  pick up cargo from each other, which doesn't help a lot
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00:45:37  <coopserver> <Cameron> that's disaster waiting to happen
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02:29:07  <coopserver> <Cameron> wb
02:29:09  <coopserver> <Slicey> ty
02:32:43  <coopserver> <Cameron> nice string of trucks
02:33:24  <coopserver> <Anson> i already removed 40 of the 60 that i had added to happy's 60 :-)
02:33:52  <coopserver> <Cameron> lol
02:34:38  <coopserver> <Anson> just kept as many as needed to keep Alexandria Factory piles down below 500
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02:52:52  <coopserver> <Anson> i think i will never create a map with towngrowth set to ON, unless the map starts with (almost) no towns and people found them themselves ...
02:53:03  <coopserver> <Cameron> lol
02:53:22  <coopserver> <Cameron> or super duper slow
02:54:01  <coopserver> <Anson> slow is bad ... the towns that you want to grow won't grow, and towns that should never grow will still grow
02:54:41  <coopserver> <Anson> you also can't setup a layout for roads since the town will reconstruct everything according to the parameters (3x3 grid, etc)
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03:19:29  <coopserver> <Cameron> do a sub tropic or artic
03:20:04  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Are we changing map soon?
03:20:12  <coopserver> <Cameron> i wish
03:20:20  <coopserver> <Cameron> we need to though
03:33:31  <coopserver> <Anson> when did this map start ? it is already 2215 now
03:33:42  <coopserver> <sim-al2> I started in 1940
03:33:50  <coopserver> <sim-al2> So I think 1920?
03:34:16  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Yeah Chaos started 1920...
03:34:22  <coopserver> <Anson> too bad that after 2100 not much happens (no new vehicles etc)
03:34:28  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Yeah
03:34:39  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Inflation gets bad too
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03:34:52  <coopserver> <Anson> and the first 100 years (which would be most interesting) pass in a real day :-(
03:35:00  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Yeah
03:35:21  <coopserver> <Anson> do you have an idea how that could be extended somehow ?
03:35:50  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Not without get the devs to change the time scale
03:37:26  <coopserver> <Anson> maybe a GRF which has all introduction dates multiplied by 10 .... game would start in 19200, new trains every 100 years (1 real day) instead of every 10 years (2.5 real hours), and after a real month, we would end in 22000
03:39:11  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Might cause the map to get old though, maybe like 2x or 4x
03:39:44  <coopserver> <Cameron> that'd be awesome
03:44:36  <coopserver> <Cameron> i need planes and ships
03:45:14  <coopserver> <Anson> what do you mean by "old map" ?
03:46:25  <coopserver> <Anson> btw: when 100 years are a real day, there would be no need to pause the server, which doesn't work most of the time since there is always some player playing or at least online while afk
03:46:40  <coopserver> <Cameron> :-)
03:46:54  <coopserver> <Cameron> looks like I got busted
03:48:29  <coopserver> <Cameron> I wish we could have bigger maps, I realize it doesn't work for slower computers and internet  but like this would be alright for 8 people
03:51:22  <coopserver> <Anson> when more people share companies, we could have up to 32 people in 8 companies, instead of a crowded map with 15 companies and only a few of them being really active
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03:52:09  <coopserver> <Anson> but of course, that already exists in the extreme : any number of people in a single company ...
03:52:16  <coopserver> <Anson> it is called public server :-)
03:53:04  <coopserver> <Cameron> but I fly solo, well pretty much
03:53:14  <coopserver> <Cameron> and others run solo as well
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04:00:33  <coopserver> <sim-al2> I have 90,0000 crates of goods at one of my stations...
04:00:33  <coopserver> <Cameron> lol, I had 370k of ttoys last map :-)
04:00:34  <coopserver> <sim-al2> lol
04:00:34  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Spamming maglevs now...
04:00:42  <coopserver> <Anson> then you need to deliver them ... or wait until next Xmas ???
04:01:09  <coopserver> <Cameron> lol
04:01:16  <coopserver> <Cameron> i guess
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04:10:04  <coopserver> <Cameron> dead lock much :P
04:10:19  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Working on it...
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04:11:12  <coopserver> <Cameron> and Anson kills trian drivers
04:11:19  <coopserver> <Cameron> *train
04:11:44  <coopserver> <Anson> we had too many trains :-)
04:12:02  <coopserver> <Cameron> 25 to life
04:12:43  <coopserver> <Anson> but really : someone built a BBH, and i am just fixing a lot of signal gaps in it, as well as some bad signals
04:13:03  <coopserver> <Anson> probably better had put up the good signal first before removing the bad one
04:13:42  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Oh wow that's a jam
04:17:08  <coopserver> <Anson> hehe, cameron, do you really need so many trains at Hunter North ?
04:18:26  <coopserver> <Anson> i think there are enough trains to be used in an entire year ...
04:18:47  <coopserver> <Cameron> maybe
04:19:19  <coopserver> <Anson> at the entrance of that station, you have bad signaling ...
04:19:25  <coopserver> <Cameron> i know
04:19:46  <coopserver> <Anson> behind the PBS, you need 2way signals
04:20:16  <coopserver> <Cameron> those or the other ones?
04:20:32  <coopserver> <Anson> yes ... and best to keep the last signal right at the last wagon, and not behind it
04:28:34  <coopserver> <Anson> what would you think of making power plants useful ?
04:29:15  <coopserver> <Anson> maybe by requiring energy to be delivered from power plants to all factories, to increase production, similar to the supplies in firs ?
05:04:48  <coopserver> <sim-al2> I'm down to only 30000
05:05:07  <coopserver> <sim-al2> lol
05:05:41  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Alexandria is absoultely crawling with trucks
05:12:44  <coopserver> <Anson> you don't have enough tunnels under St. Paul Heughts
05:12:59  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Yeah
05:13:18  <coopserver> <Anson> !gap
05:13:30  <coopserver> <Anson> @gap
05:13:57  <coopserver> <Anson> !tunnels
05:14:03  <coopserver> <sim-al2> at least 6?
05:14:15  <coopserver> <Anson> where is the calculator ?
05:15:00  <coopserver> <Anson> you would be able to buy 2 shorter tunnels of that 36 tile tunnel
05:16:45  <coopserver> <sim-al2> How?
05:17:21  <coopserver> <sim-al2> oh
05:19:19  <AnsonMobile> !gap
05:19:29  <AnsonMobile> @gap
05:19:29  <Webster> AnsonMobile: (gap <trainlength> [<split>]) -- Returns minimum and maximum signal gap sizes for 2,3 and 4 linesplits with <trainlength>. If <spilt> is given it will return the gap sizes for <split> (+/-) 1.
05:19:53  <coopserver> <Anson> @@(gap 4)
05:19:55  <Webster> coopserver: For Trainlength of 4: <= 10 needs 2, 11 - 16 needs 3, 17 - 22 needs 4.
05:20:25  <coopserver> <Anson> @@(gap 4 36)
05:20:25  <Webster> coopserver: For Trainlength of 4: 203 - 208 needs 35, 209 - 214 needs 36, 215 - 220 needs 37.
05:20:38  <coopserver> <sim-al2> wow
05:21:17  <coopserver> <sim-al2> @@(gap 4 15)
05:21:18  <Webster> coopserver: For Trainlength of 4: 77 - 82 needs 14, 83 - 88 needs 15, 89 - 94 needs 16.
05:21:46  <coopserver> <Anson> didn't this work the other way around ? calculating the number of splits for given TL and length ?
05:22:10  <coopserver> <sim-al2> I have no idea
05:22:19  <coopserver> <Anson> !gap 4 36
05:22:41  <coopserver> <Anson> that used to calculate how many tunnels are needed for TL4 and a total length of 36
05:23:18  <coopserver> <Anson> @@(gap 4 6)
05:23:19  <Webster> coopserver: For Trainlength of 4: 23 - 28 needs 5, 29 - 34 needs 6, 35 - 40 needs 7.
05:23:49  <coopserver> <Anson> you would have needed up to 7 tunnels :-) ... or rather 2x7 :-)
05:24:04  <coopserver> <sim-al2> out of goods though :(
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05:32:23  <coopserver> <sim-al2> well yes but that city is perfectly in the way...
05:33:07  <coopserver> <Anson> aren't two lanes good enough ?
05:33:25  <coopserver> <Anson> i think the four lanes were used only for the tunnels
05:33:51  <coopserver> <sim-al2> I want all four tunnels shorter
05:33:58  <coopserver> <sim-al2> right now its only three
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05:35:05  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
05:35:18  <coopserver> <Anson> i think you only built four tunnels, but didn't need 4 lanes for the normal track !?
05:35:49  <coopserver> <sim-al2> No room to get synch right
05:36:43  <coopserver> <Anson> for 2 lanes, sync is easy to do
05:36:59  <coopserver> <Anson> for the other 2, you can do an S-bend first and then merge
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05:39:38  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> re-yo
05:39:57  <coopserver> <sim-al2> hi
05:40:05  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Thanks you Anson
05:40:08  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> hey Boss
05:44:37  <coopserver> <Anson> simply shifting lines left and right ... but i am a bit helpless with our BBH ...
05:45:52  <coopserver> <Anson> i fixed lots of missing signals and some waiting spaces in the BBH and it already got better, but there are sill some connections missing, and others exist twice (additional split and later merge cause unneccessary jams)
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05:47:19  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> did Slicey accidently leave?
05:47:27  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Thx
05:47:45  <coopserver> <sim-al2> He seems to timeout a lot
05:47:58  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> ah, so he timed out?
05:48:06  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Maybe?
05:48:10  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> cuz his network was fucked up
05:48:54  <coopserver> <Anson> 10 lines above in the console : "Slicey has left the game (leaving)"
05:49:03  <coopserver> <sim-al2> In all fairness that BBH is nuts
05:49:11  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> As I wasn't here, I cant see what he said Anson
05:49:16  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> but thanks
05:49:21  <coopserver> <Anson> i didn't build it :-)
05:59:41  <coopserver> <sim-al2> On the cargodist graph does saturated really mean anything?
06:00:10  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> probably means that it's full of stuff
06:00:39  <coopserver> <Anson> look at the description of parameters in the advanced options
06:00:56  <coopserver> <Anson> saturation is an estimate of capacity and usage
06:01:38  <coopserver> <Anson> and a parameter can be set to first fill nearest destinations until tracks are saturated, or to distribute more evenly, etc
06:02:34  <coopserver> <sim-al2> But since the distrbution here is still manual, does it still affect the game?
06:03:15  <coopserver> <Anson> it shouldn't if everything is set to manual
06:03:21  <coopserver> <sim-al2> ok
06:05:00  <coopserver> <Anson> there are some problems with many of the big networks and cargodist here on these serveres ...
06:05:09  <coopserver> <sim-al2> ah ok
06:05:16  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Big CPU load right?
06:06:50  <coopserver> <Anson> you need to have connections first to let the graphs determine where cargo should go, and then you start rebuilding tracks according to that ... it doesn't match most networks which try to do fast long distance transports
06:07:20  <coopserver> <Anson> yes, CPU load too, depending on number of stations, less on number of trains
06:07:33  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Ok that makes sense, but doesn't it try to work with links it can already have?
06:07:42  <coopserver> <Anson> and the second problem is that cargodist can't handle conditional orders and refitting orders
06:08:05  <coopserver> <sim-al2> That's definetly a problem
06:09:15  <coopserver> <Anson> for pax, when you have a connection A to B, and B to C, and C to D, cargodist handles that quite well
06:09:43  <coopserver> <Anson> but if you also have a direct line A to D, some pax are sent via B and C
06:10:30  <coopserver> <Anson> and thus B and C may be crowded, and get lots of traffic with small trains, while the direct line to D is used less
06:11:01  <coopserver> <Anson> or the opposite : traffic from A to C is done by sending the pax first to D and then returning to C
06:13:05  <coopserver> <sim-al2> That's a pity because the way regular passenger travel works seems rather unreal
06:14:19  <coopserver> <Anson> it fails completely when you start using conditional orders, like collecting pax with a bus and sending the bus to the train station when it is full ... the orders behind the conditional might not be seen and thus no pax are collected there ... or pax are also sent to those bus stops, and thus buses are always full but don't collect many pax to be delivered to the train/transfer station
06:15:10  <coopserver> <Anson> the problem is that OTTD is mostly about creating networks, and less about transporting passengers between some destinations
06:15:17  <coopserver> <sim-al2> True
06:15:56  <coopserver> <Anson> when you try to do that on a purely network oriented network (transport lots fast and distant), there is a conflict
06:17:21  <coopserver> <Anson> on the other hand, it solves the problem of unrealistic networks, which collect pax in two towns with Sbahn or other feeder systems, and then only deliver them to a single drop station at the other town
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06:18:02  <coopserver> <sim-al2> That's the part the interests me. It seems like pax shouldn't just disappear into a tiny village somewhere
06:18:26  <coopserver> <sim-al2> But of course it makes you build very differently
06:18:33  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Especially for cargo
06:18:51  <coopserver> <Anson> hehe, yes, and they also shouldn't disappear at the transfer station of the second town, but be delivered from there to some other destinations
06:19:09  <coopserver> <sim-al2> yes that
06:20:01  <coopserver> <Anson> for cargo networks like we have most of the time, cargodist is useless ... when there is any number of pickup stations and a single drop station on the entire map, what can cargodist change ?
06:20:49  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Would it work better for a Public Server type game?
06:22:06  <coopserver> <Anson> no, the problem is always the same : playstyle on this server and on public mostly is the same ... build a big network which doesn't slow down and gets no jams
06:22:13  <coopserver> <sim-al2> ok
06:22:58  <coopserver> <Anson> it might be nice to enable cargodist for pax and then see what happens :-)
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06:28:56  <coopserver> <Anson> what do you think of an industry extension, to make power plants more useful ... eg delivering energy to factories to increase production, similar to what supplies do in firs ?
06:29:12  <coopserver> <sim-al2> That sounds great actually
06:29:27  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Or maybe require power for city growth?
06:29:53  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> send it to the new features forum
06:30:06  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> sounds cool but then each city would need a power plant
06:30:16  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Er yeah
06:30:25  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> guess it could work better with the new features
06:30:49  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> as in typical fashion you would only be using 1 power plant
06:30:56  <coopserver> <Anson> i was thinking of handling energy like a new cargo
06:30:58  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> but then again, you could distribute differently
06:31:11  <coopserver> <Anson> and a new railtype that looks like power lines
06:31:19  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> well that would require lots of new rail vehicles
06:31:29  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> and then you're talking SimCity not openttd
06:32:41  <coopserver> <Anson> you would have the option of a long distance transport to a power plant, but then need an additional track to send the energy back all the way ... or you have one power plant near each group of mines/factories and only need to deliver locally
06:33:20  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Not too mention transporting the energy doesn't really make sense with vehicles
06:33:29  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> I'd thin kit would work better like the adding production to Firs stuff, 1x, 2x 4x ( gung ho ) ect
06:34:12  <coopserver> <Anson> and to allow for some lazyness, there would only need to be very few "vehicles" since they "drive" on their own rails and not on any others, and only might need some variants for different capacity
06:34:56  <coopserver> <Anson> look at WET ... it is the game mechanics of trains, but looks like canals and ships
06:35:19  <coopserver> <Anson> energy could look like sparks o catenary which has no rails :-)
06:35:24  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> start drawing sprites then
06:35:55  <coopserver> <Anson> problem is that i never have done any programming with grfs yet
06:37:22  <coopserver> <Anson> i got this ised when i saw all those coal mines delivering coal across the entire map to get high profits, and then disappearing the coal in a single power plant without getting anything out of it
06:37:53  <coopserver> <Anson> AND when looking at some interesting grfs ... when i found Pipes :-)
06:39:02  <coopserver> <Anson> does any of you know the pipes grf ?
06:42:38  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> I think the pipes are part of that one set
06:42:53  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> are you talking about the station tiles?
06:43:38  <coopserver> <Anson> no, there is a track grf for pipes
06:43:56  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Anyone else have visual glitches with some ISR stuff?
06:44:10  <coopserver> <Cameron> yes
06:44:43  <coopserver> <Cameron> iron ore at a coal pickup, my drop for coal is stupidly done
06:45:29  <coopserver> <Anson> that grf is named "PIPE v6.1-r59" on bananas  (or is there a newer version somewhere)
06:46:35  <coopserver> <Cameron> I need ships now :(
06:46:42  <coopserver> <Cameron> like 2 at the most
06:47:15  <coopserver> <sim-al2> What you don't like paying millions per year to run a tug?
06:47:39  <coopserver> <Cameron> i don't have the money to buy two to begin with :O
07:00:08  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> Time for bed here, i'll drop in tomorrow and say hi
07:00:16  <coopserver> <Cameron> ok bye
07:00:23  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Night
07:00:23  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> Yup, Seeya!
07:00:58  <coopserver> <Anson> hehe, always funny when someone else goes to bed at the same time as me ... at 8am .-)
07:01:05  <coopserver> <Cameron> lol
07:01:06  <coopserver> <sim-al2> lol
07:01:16  <coopserver> <Cameron> midnite here
07:01:28  <coopserver> <sim-al2> 1am... going to bed soon
07:01:34  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> 2am here
07:01:37  <coopserver> <BiG MeeCh> :D
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08:04:50  <coopserver> <Cameron> wb
08:04:56  <coopserver> <V453000> hy
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08:41:08  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Cameron built so many trains that he now blocked one of his stations
08:41:14  <coopserver> <Maxpm> ._.
08:41:18  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Where?
08:41:44  <coopserver> <sim-al2> The line split at Stasburg ssometimes keeps trains from going to New Hope
08:44:20  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Not to mention backing up the mainline all the way to Elgin...
08:45:30  <coopserver> <Maxpm> How are trains added, exactly?  Are there just random depots scattered about?
08:46:59  <coopserver> <sim-al2> At some point he built really big platforms at two of his stations and appearently enough trains to fill them... too bad they're all 15 tiles long
08:47:15  <coopserver> <sim-al2> And end up blocking switches
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08:54:13  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Is there even any room for anything to be added to this map...?
08:54:23  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Not really
08:54:48  <coopserver> <sim-al2> My corner is really really bad
08:55:02  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Which corner is yours?
08:55:13  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Northeast near Elgin
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09:01:11  <coopserver> <Maxpm> When you're giving orders to a new group of trains, how do you decide the destination?
09:01:21  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Surely, each line serves dozens of equivalent industries.
09:02:06  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Usually I group them based on destination and purpose
09:02:32  <coopserver> <sim-al2> IE "Forest to Sawmill Wood"
09:03:04  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Yeah, but, I mean, let's say you just built a new station that collects wood production from a forest.
09:03:14  <coopserver> <Maxpm> And you link the station up to the main line, or whatever.
09:03:31  <coopserver> <sim-al2> ok
09:03:42  <coopserver> <Maxpm> There must be tons of sawmills that want that wood.  Is there any rhyme or reason to which one gets it?
09:03:50  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Is it the farthest one?  The closest?
09:03:54  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Furtherst away they can be built to
09:04:10  <coopserver> <sim-al2> The farther you transport stuff, the greater the payour
09:04:14  <coopserver> <sim-al2> *payout
09:04:17  <coopserver> <Maxpm> I see.
09:04:57  <coopserver> <sim-al2> That's why you see these huge networks on this sever: the payout scales much larger than the running costs
09:05:39  <coopserver> <Maxpm> So it's actually more cost-effective to build a line that goes across the map than it is to build a really short one that serves the same purpose.
09:05:43  <coopserver> *** Game paused (connecting clients)
09:05:44  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Yes
09:05:45  <coopserver> <Anson> it's always good to build a long line at first, as money maker
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09:06:06  <coopserver> <Anson> but later, you earn so much money anyway that you can build whatever you want
09:06:14  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Unless the short line is a feeder or something to bring even more cargo in
09:06:48  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Then convert that cargo at an industry and ship it somewhere else to make more money
09:07:14  <coopserver> <Maxpm> So then, are the main lines decided  on before anything is built, or do they tend to emerge naturally?
09:07:42  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Depends
09:08:08  <coopserver> <Anson> on this server, most people build something and some people later try converting some main  lines to mainline
09:08:18  <coopserver> <sim-al2> On a coop server or if you are dedicated, at least some degree of planning helps a lot
09:08:30  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Hmm.
09:08:33  <coopserver> <Anson> on the public server, it is planned in advance, and to an extreme :
09:08:35  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Otherwise, it emerges as demand dictates
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09:09:10  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Or just randomly, based on some of my saved games...
09:09:31  <coopserver> <Anson> first a moneymaker is started, and people draw simple plans on what they suggest to do with the map. then they vote for the best plan, and then all people build a giant net according to that plan
09:09:40  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Well, I guess even planned main lines would still boil down to "whatever you want," right?  I mean, if you can just pick up resources and dump them somewhere a million miles away...
09:09:47  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Sure
09:10:12  <coopserver> <Anson> and to do so, most of the time, the mainlines are built first, big drop stations next, sidelines last
09:10:49  <coopserver> <Maxpm> I see.
09:11:25  <coopserver> <sim-al2> I haven't really played on the public server but to get a really massive network going takes a lot of planning in your junction building
09:11:45  <coopserver> <sim-al2> to avoid gridlock
09:11:50  <coopserver> <Maxpm> I can imagine.
09:12:13  <coopserver> <Anson> for mainlines, the definition already says how to build them ... no direct access to resources, and (if possible) no slowdown or jams
09:12:24  <coopserver> <sim-al2> But you can always go simple and try dedicated lines
09:12:31  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Yes that''s right
09:12:55  <coopserver> <Anson> sidelines connect resources to a mainline at a hub, and they are less strict, eg can have tighter curves, etc
09:13:31  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Hm.
09:14:41  <coopserver> <Anson> those big networks are very unlikely to have deadlocks ... there are no crossings, but only splits and merges, and having a deadlock would mean that there are much too many trains which cause queues across the whole map
09:16:47  <coopserver> <sim-al2> On the OpenTTD Coop wiki there's a tutorial savegame that explains all of the network building ideals
09:17:05  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Not to mention alot of detail on junction building
09:17:33  <coopserver> <Anson> i don't know whether they updated it ... a few months ago, that savegame was 5 years old and some things have changed over time
09:17:49  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Hmm.
09:17:57  <coopserver> <sim-al2> I don't think they have, but it still runs in this version
09:18:10  <coopserver> <Anson> that applies to many pages in the wiki .... people always invent newer and better methods to do something
09:18:43  <coopserver> <sim-al2> true, always good to try new things
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09:22:08  <coopserver> <Anson> you are new to these servers ?
09:22:38  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Me?  Kinda.  I've known of OpenTTD for a while, but never got too involved in it.
09:22:59  <coopserver> <Maxpm> I tried joining an OpenTTD coop server a long time ago, but this is the first time I've had a matching version, I guess.
09:23:34  <coopserver> <Anson> these servers (almost always) have some basic settings ...
09:23:55  <coopserver> <Anson> breakdowns are always off
09:23:59  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Thank God.
09:24:10  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Agreed
09:24:12  <coopserver> <Anson> 2way signals are set to behave as eol when red
09:24:30  <coopserver> <Maxpm> That's weird.  Why?
09:24:45  <coopserver> <Anson> and networks are train networks
09:24:59  <coopserver> <Anson> look at Alexandria Woods
09:25:05  <coopserver> <Cameron> usually they are, sometimes it is missed
09:25:33  <coopserver> <Maxpm> What exactly is going on at Alexandria Woods?
09:26:42  <coopserver> <Anson> it is a pickup station with invisible overflow depot and emergency exit
09:27:15  <coopserver> <Anson> trains will consider the 2way exit signals (or any 2way signal) as dead end and go to another path instead
09:27:40  <coopserver> <Anson> if both are red, they end up on the reverser which causes them to go to the depot
09:27:53  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Ah.
09:28:11  <coopserver> <Anson> but trains from the mainline won't be able to go there directly, and thus the depot is invisible for the pathfinder
09:28:35  <coopserver> <Maxpm> So the depot just catches all the overflow?
09:29:06  <coopserver> <Anson> the default settings (eg when you install ottd and do an offline game) cause trains to go to a random red signal instead and then be stuck
09:29:38  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Aren't entry pre-signals supposed to get around that?
09:30:05  <coopserver> <Anson> i stopped the trains
09:30:11  <coopserver> <Anson> watch the third train now
09:31:04  <coopserver> <Maxpm> I think I understand.
09:31:26  <coopserver> <Anson> presignals would help, but theys also would cause trains to queue in front of the station
09:32:21  <coopserver> <Anson> this station only has a primitive overflow depot ... they can be made much more powerful, much faster, etc
09:32:51  <coopserver> <Maxpm> What's the benefit of having an overflow depot over just letting trains queue up?
09:32:53  <coopserver> <Anson> but this small version is nice at pickup stations with little production
09:33:26  <coopserver> <Anson> when you have a big network, some stations have 50 or 100 trains ... imagine the length of that queue :-)
09:33:38  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Hmm.
09:33:42  <coopserver> <Anson> a depot is much smaller :-) LOL
09:34:39  <coopserver> <Maxpm> What's with all these trucks in Alexandria?
09:34:47  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Too small of a distance to cover with a rail line?
09:34:50  <coopserver> <Cameron> who knows
09:35:02  <coopserver> <Anson> biggest advantage of overflow depots : they take care of too many trains queueing up, and thus avoid blocking the sideline, junctions and even the mainline
09:35:37  <coopserver> <Anson> how do you build a rail line when there is a big town that you don't want to destroy ?
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09:36:00  <coopserver> <Maxpm> I'd just destroy the big town.  It's not like you're short on money.
09:36:25  <coopserver> <Anson> small advantage of overflows : you can put some trains in them, to automatically be used later when production increases and you are AFK
09:36:41  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Hmm.
09:37:02  <coopserver> <Anson> biggest disadvantage : same as small advantage ... there might be so many trains coming from the depot that the whole net is flooded
09:37:36  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Towns generally won't let you destroy too many buildings
09:37:43  <coopserver> <Anson> and that also happens when there is already a queue on the net and thus trains come back in time ... then even more trains would be released from the overflow, making it worse
09:38:32  <coopserver> <Anson> it is always nice to play with the landscape (including towns) and not against them ..
09:38:52  <coopserver> <Maxpm> I guess.
09:39:01  <coopserver> <Anson> meaning : as little terraforming as possible, not growing towns when not needed, etc
09:39:44  <coopserver> <sim-al2> On this map there's a base cost NewGRF that makes landscape changes significantly more expensive, and essentially prevents any change to rivers or water...
09:39:48  <coopserver> <Anson> btw : on these servers, towns usually don't build roads by themselves. thus you don't need to buy land or otherwise fence a town
09:40:21  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Oh, that reminds me: I saw a bunch of really long tunnels under a mountain, and because they were so long, each line had to be tripled.  Why not just flatten the land and build right through it?
09:40:34  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Of course if they start growing because you are delivering goods you need to fence them
09:40:55  <coopserver> <sim-al2> It's really expensive with these GRFs
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09:40:56  <coopserver> <Anson> ships and planes either have high costs (factor 64k x) or are limited in number, or both :-)
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09:41:08  <coopserver> <Berkel> hi
09:41:10  <coopserver> <sim-al2> hi
09:41:11  <coopserver> <Berkel> still the same map :(
09:41:15  <coopserver> <sim-al2> yep
09:41:18  <coopserver> <Cameron> yeah
09:41:57  <coopserver> <sim-al2> lol truck conga line at Alexandria when one truck stops in the middle...
09:42:02  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Lol.
09:42:04  <coopserver> <Anson> the high terraforming costs and even higher for water were caused by some such people who flattened mountains or created land out of water
09:42:21  <coopserver> <Maxpm> I see.
09:42:23  <coopserver> <Cameron> private islands :P
09:42:47  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Ah I just want to make little connections to those island industries on ocassion... :(
09:43:00  <coopserver> <Anson> most maps have around 15 islands, one per company
09:44:00  <coopserver> <Anson> the current map is not too typical of this server
09:44:21  <coopserver> <Maxpm> I was honestly kind of expecting one gigantic continent with all the companies just working together.
09:44:25  <coopserver> <Anson> btw : maps are never reset (at some date or whatever)
09:44:53  <coopserver> <Anson> instead a new map is loaded when there is one avaibale, the old map is exhausted, and an admin has the time to load it
09:44:56  <coopserver> <Cameron> 300 game years later
09:45:21  <coopserver> <Anson> that usually happens between 2100 and 2200
09:45:53  <coopserver> <Anson> all people working together happens on the public server ...
09:46:06  <coopserver> <Anson> there is only one company and all people are working in it
09:46:10  <coopserver> <Cameron> its 2242
09:46:44  <coopserver> <Anson> maybe we will get a new map in the european afternoon
09:47:20  <coopserver> <Maxpm> I'd like to participate, but I don't think I can match anything here.
09:47:39  <coopserver> <Anson> just pick some free space and start building
09:47:41  <coopserver> *** Berkel has started a new company #4
09:47:48  <coopserver> <Berkel> fun PAX company lol :D
09:48:22  <coopserver> <Anson> as long as you don't block other networks and their expansion and as long as you don't steal, you can do pretty much what you want
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09:48:46  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Hmm.
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09:59:27  <coopserver> <Berkel> thanks :D
10:00:57  <coopserver> <Anson> you asked a bit earlier whether presignals could be used to stop trains in front of a station ...
10:01:48  <coopserver> <Anson> i just rebuilt Alexandria Woods to use a bigger overfklow which stops trains from being "injected" by using a very long chain of presignals :-)
10:02:33  <coopserver> <Anson> let's see whether it works ...
10:06:11  <coopserver> <Anson> wrong signaling ... nut yet perfect :-(
10:06:37  <coopserver> <Berkel> hehe, thanks for my "highway" @sim :D
10:06:44  <coopserver> <sim-al2> np
10:07:01  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Just tell your drivers not to drive off the edge
10:07:09  <coopserver> <Berkel> :D
10:07:09  <coopserver> <Cameron> what?
10:07:19  <coopserver> <Cameron> oh..
10:07:28  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Built a bridge to one of the islands
10:08:46  <coopserver> <Berkel> powerplants can close now? oO
10:08:51  <coopserver> <Cameron> yes
10:09:05  <coopserver> <Cameron> openttdgrf industries changes that
10:09:13  <coopserver> <Cameron> *grx
10:09:19  <coopserver> <Cameron> nvm
10:09:27  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Anson, I know I'm probably missing something, but...why not just have every single train go into the depot before going to the station?
10:09:29  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Don't worry, as soon as you start building your network a new one will appear right as you click to build something
10:10:16  <coopserver> <Anson> simple reason : speed
10:11:00  <coopserver> <Anson> trains in the late game go up to 600+ kph, and while entering and leaving depots, they only have 61 kph
10:11:15  <coopserver> <Maxpm> Hmm.
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10:12:32  <coopserver> <sim-al2> Heck of a place for a coal mine
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10:17:21  <coopserver> <Cameron> well
10:17:26  <coopserver> <Vinnie> hi
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10:22:57  <coopserver> <Cameron> gn
10:23:03  <coopserver> <sim-al2> night
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10:44:31  <coopserver> <Anson> is Alexandria Woods now working correctly ?
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11:24:51  <coopserver> <Vinnie> newmap?
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11:35:04  <Vinnie_nl> got a map + gamescript to test with 1.4 features
11:35:06  <Vinnie_nl>
11:35:24  <Vinnie_nl> shall wait for some other players on server
11:35:43  <Vinnie_nl> and best wishes to whoever is here
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13:03:09  <Firestar> t/j #openttdcoop
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13:11:16  <happy_> hi all
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14:03:48  <GriffinOneTwo> finally I understand the silly non path signals, I thought the combo signal icon was the exit signal, and vise-versa {Sheesh}
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14:23:57  <coopserver> <Anson> hallo, griffin
14:26:44  <coopserver> <Anson> in case you didn't notice : yellow signs on signals indicate entry, and vertical signs on signals indicate exit ... thus yellow horizontal = only entry, grey vertical = only exit, and vertical yellow = entry and exit = combo
14:29:52  <GriffinOneTwo> yea, figured that out, after I unmixed them up.
14:31:34  <coopserver> <Anson> but there are lots of other signals too ... and many of them are quite difficult to recognize
14:32:18  <GriffinOneTwo> I was trying to do some paced dispatch logic, and took like 2hrs before I noticed I had the signal icons mixed in my head, whic was keepng ti from working
14:32:47  <GriffinOneTwo> i'll stick to non semaphore for now
14:33:39  <coopserver> <Anson> signals are defined by grf files ... nuts has those wet signals as second set
14:35:03  <coopserver> <Anson> at first, i could never remember them, and it was difficult to see what they were on first sight, but somehow you get accustomed to everything, and after the original signals, they are my second choice ... way before lots of other signal sets
14:37:06  <GriffinOneTwo> hmm
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15:23:58  <Jam35> !date
15:23:58  <coopserver> Feb 25 2253
15:24:29  <Jam35> !getsave
15:24:29  <coopserver> Starting download...
15:24:32  <coopserver> Savegame successfully downloaded
15:24:55  <Jam35> !rcon ls
15:24:58  <coopserver> 0) .. (Parent directory)
15:24:59  <coopserver> 1) JStable040114.sav
15:25:00  <coopserver> 2) Happy%20New%20Year.sav
15:25:01  <coopserver> 3) skyeMap27-12-2013_1.sav
15:25:02  <coopserver> 4) OpenTTDCoop%20Map%2027-12-2013%20V1.sav
15:25:03  <coopserver> Jam35: You have 17 more messages. Type !less to view them
15:25:10  <Jam35> !rcon load 1
15:25:11  <coopserver> Starting new game
15:25:13  <coopserver> *** Anson has left the game (connection lost)
15:25:14  <coopserver> Now playing on #openttdcoop - Welcome Server ( (Version 1.4.0-beta1)
15:25:15  <coopserver> *** Game paused (number of players)
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15:27:21  <coopserver> <Anson> please !setdef
15:30:27  <coopserver> <Anson> wait times at signals are enabled, path backoff interval is 20 ... please !setdef
15:32:47  <Jam35> more importantly there are  no trains
15:33:37  <Jam35> !getsave
15:33:38  <coopserver> Starting download...
15:33:41  <coopserver> Savegame successfully downloaded
15:33:46  <Jam35> !rcon load 1
15:33:47  <coopserver> Starting new game
15:33:47  <coopserver> *** Anson has left the game (connection lost)
15:33:48  <coopserver> Now playing on #openttdcoop - Welcome Server ( (Version 1.4.0-beta1)
15:33:49  <coopserver> *** Game paused (number of players)
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15:33:52  <Jam35> !setdef
15:33:52  <coopserver> Jam35: Setting default settings: set ai_in_multiplayer 0, set extra_dynamite 1, set forbid_90_deg 1, set mod_road_rebuild 1, set order.no_servicing_if_no_breakdowns 1, set path_backoff_interval 1, set train_acceleration_model 1, set vehicle_breakdowns 0, set wait_for_pbs_path 255, set wait_oneway_signal 255, set wait_twoway_signal 255, and set yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol 1
15:33:56  <Jam35> !auto
15:33:56  <coopserver> Sorry, still processing previous rcon command
15:34:00  <Jam35> !auto
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15:35:11  <Jam35> !rcon reset_company 1
15:35:12  <coopserver> Company deleted.
15:37:28  <coopserver> *** Jam35 has left the game (Leaving)
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15:38:04  <coopserver> *** Dnz-Ali has joined
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15:38:13  <coopserver> <Dnz-Ali> hi
15:38:56  <coopserver> <Anson> hallo, dnz ... new map just started a few mins ago
15:39:02  <coopserver> <Dnz-Ali> ok
15:39:05  <coopserver> <Dnz-Ali> np
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15:39:18  <coopserver> *** happy tran  sport has joined
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15:39:37  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> hi  all
15:39:42  <coopserver> <Dnz-Ali> hi happy
15:39:56  <coopserver> <Anson> hallo, happy
15:40:22  <coopserver> <Anson> happy, did you finally set the default values for service intervals etc ?
15:40:35  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> not  yet
15:40:50  <coopserver> *** happy tran  sport has started a new company #1
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15:41:22  <Jam35> it seems you cannot remove a train set newgrf and revert to default trains?
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15:41:55  <coopserver> <Anson> of course, you didn't ... again
15:42:56  <coopserver> <Anson> changing grfs on a runnuing game is very difficult and may result in errors, if it is possible at all
15:46:05  <Jam35> I can easily add a train set and have them appear, but not remove and have default trains
15:46:41  <Jam35> Not advisable I know
15:46:53  <Jam35> but if there are no vehicles in game
15:46:58  <Jam35> is usually ok
16:01:43  <V453000> it is possible if there are no vehicles from the train set built
16:07:09  <coopserver> *** Dnz-Ali has left the game (Leaving)
16:22:12  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> be  back  in a  minte
16:24:52  <coopserver> *** Game paused (connecting clients)
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16:29:42  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> hi  jam
16:34:26  <Jam35> hi happy
16:34:33  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> how  things
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17:06:18  <coopserver> *** JoeSchmoe has joined
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17:06:30  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> hi  joe
17:06:35  <coopserver> <JoeSchmoe> hi
17:07:30  <coopserver> <JoeSchmoe> so how are things?
17:07:47  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> good
17:08:20  <coopserver> *** JoeSchmoe has started a new company #2
17:12:30  <coopserver> <Anson> most lines, mainlines, etc are drive right ... but the newest pickup lines are drive left ...
17:17:44  <coopserver> *** Djanxy has left the game (Leaving)
17:28:02  <coopserver> <Anson> overflow depot fixed for oiloods
17:30:21  <coopserver> <Anson> at the oil drop
17:33:41  <coopserver> <Anson> maybe, we will rebuild the goods pickup later again .... building it parallel to the oil drop, and with a better overflow (with waiting bays etc)
17:38:10  <coopserver> *** Game paused (connecting clients)
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17:38:18  <coopserver> <Anson> what is that ? bug in ottd or in nuts ? .... look at trains 22 and 24 in the train list window : all others have the engines attached directly to the wagons, and those two have a gap ...
17:38:46  <coopserver> <Player> Hi all
17:38:50  <coopserver> <JoeSchmoe> hi
17:38:54  <coopserver> <Player> And no, this is not really a bug
17:40:25  <coopserver> <Player> and btw, why have we got "year  -2" ?
17:40:40  <coopserver> <Player> !name [FR]Syl59
17:40:40  <coopserver> *** Player has changed his/her name to [FR]Syl59
17:40:46  <coopserver> <Anson> hallo, anonymous player ... what causes this glitch(?) then ?
17:40:58  <coopserver> <Anson> oh, hallo, syl :-)
17:41:09  <coopserver> <[FR]Syl59> Ask V ;)
17:41:29  <coopserver> <Anson> year - 2 ??? i see january 1929
17:41:43  <coopserver> <JoeSchmoe> start year is 1930
17:41:53  <coopserver> <[FR]Syl59> For me, it's just because the engine is smaller as the "space reserved" into the grf
17:41:58  <coopserver> <[FR]Syl59> but I'm not a pro :D
17:42:00  <coopserver> <Anson> the map was restarted once
17:42:08  <coopserver> <[FR]Syl59> Oh ok
17:43:22  <coopserver> <Anson> but i think it was started in 1920, and a few days later started again since there were no trains ... something with deleting a grf to get original trains, but that failed, and thus the restart
17:44:17  <coopserver> <[FR]Syl59> Anson, can I coop ?
17:45:11  <coopserver> <JoeSchmoe> if he says no you're welcome to join me
17:45:20  <coopserver> <[FR]Syl59> No problem ;)
17:45:46  <coopserver> <Anson> this is happy's company
17:45:58  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> hi [FR]Syl59
17:46:10  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> how    things
17:46:11  <coopserver> <[FR]Syl59> Hi happy :)
17:46:25  <coopserver> <[FR]Syl59> Not bad :) you ?
17:46:34  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> good
17:47:22  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> [FR]Syl59: fill  free  to join
17:48:46  <coopserver> *** [FR]Syl59 has joined company #1
17:48:51  <coopserver> <[FR]Syl59> Thanks happy
17:48:56  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> np
17:49:08  <coopserver> <Anson> how will we do the mainlines ?
17:49:08  <coopserver> <happy tran  sport> i be  back  later
17:50:42  <coopserver> *** happy tran  sport has left the game (Leaving)
18:07:32  <coopserver> *** Game paused (connecting clients)
18:07:34  <coopserver> *** Vinnie has joined
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18:07:40  <coopserver> <Vinnie> hello
18:07:47  <coopserver> <JoeSchmoe> ello
18:07:49  <coopserver> <Anson> hello
18:07:58  <coopserver> <Anson> and i need to take a break finally
18:08:03  <coopserver> <Vinnie> best wishes to all
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19:06:53  <coopserver> <Liuk Sk> hi
19:06:56  <coopserver> <sim-al2> hi
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19:14:55  <coopserver> *** sim-al2 has started a new company #3
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20:04:05  <coopserver> *** happy tran  sport has joined company #1
20:07:32  <coopserver> *** Player has started a new company #4
20:07:32  <coopserver> Player: Please change your name before joining/starting a company. Use '!name <new name>' to do so.
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23:15:45  <coopserver> <Cameron> yay
23:20:12  <coopserver> *** Cameron has started a new company #4
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23:56:47  <coopserver> <tyteen4a03> !name tyteen4a03
23:56:59  <coopserver> <tyteen4a03> or not :P
23:57:20  <coopserver> *** tyteen4a03 has started a new company #5

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