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00:30:47 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-166-215.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:36:55 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:44:12 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-011-134.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 01:43:49 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c8f1:6bdf:e41d:77d8] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it's quite annoying that the error log in the ticket throws 404 after a new version was compiled 02:48:43 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 02:51:00 <supermop> do i need to provide separate bridge sprites for road and rail? 03:03:12 <planetmaker> yes 03:03:58 <supermop> but the rail ones can automatically handle railtypes? 03:05:32 <supermop> can i provide a bridge sprite with say a blank deck, and then provide a road deck or rail sprite as well that gets layered above the bridge background but behind the foreground? 03:07:55 <supermop> drawing an isometric caternary curve is hard... 03:10:21 <planetmaker> you unfortunately cannot do that. 03:10:35 <planetmaker> railtypes work. As their track is overlayed 03:10:50 <planetmaker> I'd nevertheless *draw* it the way you suggest 03:10:56 <supermop> yeah 03:11:05 <planetmaker> and then just export different layers with different road / track as different sprites 03:11:11 <supermop> and i only get 6 tiles? 03:11:21 <planetmaker> possibly. dunno 03:12:01 <supermop> i sont see a bridge with more than 6 in the sprite sheet for opengfx infrastructure 03:12:09 <supermop> sso i am guessing so 03:14:00 <planetmaker> yes... I guess you have to check the newgrf specs, though 03:14:44 <supermop> if i want to ask nicely for more features for bridges, should i show a mock up of what i would like to do, or should i just work with what i can for now? 03:16:05 <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Bridges#Bridge_Layouts 03:16:39 <planetmaker> supermop: it's generally know that the newgrf specs for bridges quite lack of what one would really want there 03:16:44 <planetmaker> *known 03:16:54 <supermop> ouch 03:16:56 <supermop> hmm 03:17:10 <planetmaker> not that it can't be changed. But no-one did so far 03:17:25 <supermop> this isnt going to fit in any of those layouts 03:19:09 <planetmaker> yes... bridges are a seriously under-developed newgrf feature 03:19:25 <planetmaker> patch(es) to change that are quite welcome 03:19:44 <planetmaker> I fear that doesn#t help you, though 03:19:59 <supermop> id need something that was like _0(2453)1_ where () repeats, 03:20:12 <supermop> rather than () being only 2 tiles 03:20:44 <supermop> i wonder if i can sortt of fake it by seriously restricting possible lengths 03:23:00 <panna> NN 03:23:26 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 03:29:12 <supermop> so ottd would need to be patched to allow more newgrf features? or nml needs to be patched? or both? 03:33:00 <supermop> and would the patch need to add specific new layouts, that might themselves seem just as limiting to a future author? 03:35:24 <planetmaker> this is currently an openttd restriction 03:35:40 <planetmaker> once it's implemented, both nforenum and nml would need teaching, too 03:36:16 <planetmaker> I'd not add specific layouts. I'd add a feature which allows to define arbitrary layouts via newgrf 03:36:36 <planetmaker> similar to the tilelayouts of industries 03:36:41 <supermop> ok 03:37:00 <supermop> also good would be a couple callbacks 03:37:06 <planetmaker> of course 03:37:43 <supermop> to change appearance based on neighboring bridge - to allow 'wide' bridges 03:37:45 <planetmaker> and variables 03:38:37 <supermop> ie a 'brooklyn bridge' whereby two road bridges and one tram bridge look like a single wide bridge 03:38:39 <planetmaker> well, that'd be quite advanced to allow multi-tile width 03:38:56 <supermop> well not an actually wide bridge 03:40:00 <planetmaker> I've the feeling that that's something which not necessarily will be added when tacking bridges. It's feasible, but it's quite a bit beyond current capabilities 03:40:18 <supermop> but say if suspension bridge detects bridge of same length and compatible type next to it, it instead draws a different set ofdeck sprites 03:40:49 <planetmaker> yes... and then the question comes "why not, if one is a tile shorter" or so :-) 03:40:59 <supermop> heh 03:41:11 <planetmaker> and what to do when I really want two adjacent bridges like a single one 03:41:13 <planetmaker> etc :-) 03:41:42 <planetmaker> it has issues, and would work like some auto-adjust houses / industries / stations 03:41:57 <supermop> those that face roads? 03:42:14 <supermop> like the town houses in .se houses? 03:45:22 <supermop> well that is nice but less important 03:45:38 <supermop> i could work around it if the bridge limit was raised 03:46:04 <supermop> (steel susp. bridge left. steel susp bridge right etc) 03:47:50 <supermop> other nice feature would be height requirements 03:49:54 <supermop> anyway sorry to be rambling on like this 03:53:04 <planetmaker> it's ok :-) 03:53:14 <planetmaker> yes, it would be nice. 03:53:24 <planetmaker> *someone* is just slacking off :-P 03:53:57 <supermop> heh 03:54:41 <supermop> can bridges currently be limited to only one deck type? (only road, only monorail, etc?) 03:54:55 <supermop> well let me read specs a bit 03:57:50 <supermop> seems no 03:58:30 <supermop> an alweg-style monorail beam bridge would look silly with a road on it 04:04:47 <supermop> should i make a suggestion in the suggestion forum, or would that annoy people? 04:17:05 <planetmaker> you can post all kind of phantasies and wishlists in the suggestions forum ;-) 04:18:09 <supermop> are you familiar with the kompact label in Koln, planetmaker? 04:18:55 <planetmaker> with what? 04:19:08 <planetmaker> (the answer thus is probably 'no' ;-) ) 04:19:08 <supermop> its a german music label 04:19:16 <planetmaker> never heart of it 04:19:31 <planetmaker> but I'm a music-industry-agnostic 04:19:34 <supermop> its fairly niche, so it would be odd if you had 04:19:44 <supermop> its a small shop 04:20:00 <supermop> they do mostly minimalist electronic 04:20:17 <supermop> (shop meaning company, not an actual record shop) 04:22:47 <supermop> I sometimes feel like quite the fish out of water in OTTD land 04:24:30 <planetmaker> hehe :-) 04:24:56 <planetmaker> for all the boundaries you find? 04:26:14 <supermop> i meant demographically 04:26:44 <supermop> I have no programming background 04:27:09 <supermop> seem to have a different taste graphically to most users/contributors etc 04:27:25 <planetmaker> there's quite a few who don't have an IT background 04:27:58 <planetmaker> (i.e. everything I know there is mostly self-taught) 04:28:17 <supermop> i like to approach it from a design/planning standpoint 04:28:24 <planetmaker> s/i.e./e.g./ 04:28:29 <planetmaker> damn abbreviations ;-) 04:28:32 <supermop> but i run into walls with coding 04:29:08 <supermop> yes we should just merge ie and eg to save on misuse and embarassment 04:29:54 <supermop> also it seems everyone active here is older than I, but in the tycoon channel, i am older than everyone there 04:33:43 <planetmaker> hm, everyone here _older_ than you? That'd be... interesting. 04:33:51 <planetmaker> Though it depends on how old you are, of course 04:34:03 <supermop> just an impression i get 04:34:24 <supermop> I guess you guys come across and having your act together 04:34:36 <supermop> s/and/as 04:34:51 <planetmaker> please rephrase 04:35:16 <planetmaker> (I don't understand that wording) 04:35:37 <supermop> hmm having your act together... having your ducks in a row 04:35:59 <planetmaker> hm... I see. Too sane ;-) 04:36:14 <supermop> i guess it implies a copetence and organization 04:36:32 <supermop> along with so coherent motivation or vision 04:36:36 <supermop> *some 04:36:42 <supermop> competence 04:37:55 <planetmaker> I guess it's a bit of self-selection that those people with a somewhat common vision of the game gather 04:38:00 <supermop> so, someone who knows what they want to be doing, and made an effort to be capable of doing it 04:39:23 <planetmaker> well... it's how open-source works: those who want to do something, just do it. And share it 04:39:46 <supermop> yeah, it seems very mature 04:40:14 <supermop> so i guess i got them impression that you were all older than me because you were able to make that happen 04:42:07 <planetmaker> I might well be older than you. But then I'm probably one of the oldest ones around in this channel ;-) 04:42:35 <supermop> heh 04:44:03 <supermop> ok, well I should be going to bed, have a conference call with London early in the morning 04:44:09 <supermop> talk to you later 04:44:14 <planetmaker> bye 04:51:53 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 04:56:28 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B751AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:03:13 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B72E39.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:25:37 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:41:20 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B751AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:41:33 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B751AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:50:52 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:18:11 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 06:38:44 <Elukka> trains trains trains 06:38:45 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/trackplan-1.png 06:41:44 <Elukka> really edging the limit of how much of the table i want to fill up with track here... 06:43:59 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:45:47 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice4n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 07:01:29 <Terkhen> good morning 07:02:15 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen 07:18:13 <appe> morning 07:18:19 <appe> i was working a bit on the sounds yesterday 07:18:34 <appe> i havent made anything yet, though i think i have decided how to acheive this 07:19:29 <appe> i had two options. use modern tools (with samples) to create the sounds - or simply synthesize and sculpt white analogue noise down to the individual sounds. 07:20:08 <appe> the guy in me that's not getting paid with a dayjob wants option #1, the artist in me wants option #2. 07:22:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23025 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Support resized company colour icon in company key window. 07:27:06 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-011-134.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 07:27:09 <norbert79> appe: I would prefer 1... Even if I work creating new sounds or effects or even something for a game for my own amusement, I use 1 07:28:11 <norbert79> appe: For example I have spent some time for creating a sirene sound for an addon for Mafia 1 (Hungarian Mafia), because there was no included. So I have spent some time fuigring out what type of sirenes were used back then and got a sample recording too, which I have cut, looped, etc, and the end result was fantastic :) 07:29:12 <norbert79> appe: I did the same for Modern Mafia mod too, also sirene, but had to cut from a 5 minutes long recording :) 07:29:59 <planetmaker> norbert79: then go ahead and create (also) sounds for OpenTTD 07:30:18 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 07:30:25 <norbert79> planetmaker: Was merely about telling how well #1 could work ;-) appe wanted to create new sounds, not me ;-) 07:31:06 <norbert79> planetmaker: I am fine with current ones... :) 07:32:28 <norbert79> planetmaker: Basically the problem I would have with creating new sounds for OpenTTD would be the fact, that I am way too used to the original ones... 07:32:41 <norbert79> planetmaker: Wouldn't be able having new ideas 07:40:04 <appe> norbert79: that sounds neat 07:40:11 <appe> ill think about it 07:41:02 <norbert79> appe: Synthetising sounds might also work, but it would still feel like an instant soup. 07:41:15 <norbert79> appe: Nice, good, but still it feels different. 07:42:28 <norbert79> appe: I am a rookie on understanding sound, transforming, playing with tricks, but even audacity provides so many cool features, that if I was able recreating certain things well, just think about it what a pro could do... :) 07:45:15 <appe> hehe 07:45:40 <appe> well, i do have the gear to actually record new stuff. 07:46:30 <norbert79> appe: Well, I think you got your answer... :) You just need to find the perfect candidates for the effects 07:47:07 <appe> :) 07:47:34 <appe> btw, here's a track i made a few years ago with the same gear i think ill use now 07:47:46 <appe> http://fac.dndr.se/poo/appe_-_the_cassette_years-2007/01-appe_cassette-years_brain.mp3 07:48:48 <norbert79> appe: You already shared this one ;-) 07:49:33 <norbert79> appe: But yeah, there you go, you are all set 07:51:21 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:53:56 <appe> oh 07:55:24 <V453000> nature comes to openttd? :D 07:55:25 <V453000> :p 07:56:48 <appe> hehe 07:57:02 <planetmaker> appe: you're aware that sound files are wav files? 07:57:17 <appe> yes, of course? 07:57:25 <planetmaker> ok :-) 07:58:07 <norbert79> unless one creates a cat file :) 07:58:34 <planetmaker> eh? 07:58:42 <norbert79> planetmaker: sample.cat 07:58:45 <planetmaker> yes? 07:58:49 <planetmaker> what about that? 07:58:56 <norbert79> <planetmaker> appe: you're aware that sound files are wav files? 07:59:03 <norbert79> easier compacting it into one file 07:59:09 <norbert79> just saying 07:59:12 <appe> planetmaker: i dont really follow. 07:59:22 <peter1138> what's the relevance of being wav files? 07:59:22 <appe> planetmaker: why do you ask? :) 07:59:26 <planetmaker> appe: I just asked as you linked an mp3 :-) 07:59:41 <norbert79> planetmaker: he did, but it was merely an example of his work :) 07:59:49 <norbert79> planetmaker: unrelated to the game 07:59:50 <appe> planetmaker: that's music, and not related to any ttd work. 07:59:57 <planetmaker> ok ok :-) 08:00:14 <planetmaker> I just want to make sure that no-one is disappointed to find out the effort was in vain 08:00:30 <planetmaker> you being aware of the formats thus is good :-) 08:00:33 <norbert79> planetmaker: Like transforming an mp3 to wav would be impossible ;-) 08:01:00 <planetmaker> to midi for music is... difficult 08:01:07 <planetmaker> at least I lack the tools 08:01:33 <peter1138> weird. my sound doesn't work when i download and play it... on the wrong machine... 08:01:40 <norbert79> Pity that the game never wanted to support streams, like s3m, IT, XM 08:01:59 <peter1138> they're not streams 08:02:02 <planetmaker> well... why streams? 08:02:20 <norbert79> tracker files, whatever, comes from perspective how you look at them 08:02:22 <planetmaker> you want to maintain an openttd music radio? 08:02:49 <planetmaker> it would to some degree make sense to support other music file formats than midi 08:02:52 <norbert79> I also made some music back then, lost them all, but still in lovew with the good old MOD, S3M, IT and XM formats :) 08:03:03 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, the libraries are there 08:03:09 <norbert79> planetmaker: libmikmod 08:03:24 <planetmaker> there are many libraries for many formats 08:03:38 <norbert79> sure, but mikmod supports all sort of such 08:03:42 <planetmaker> there are far less people who use them. and use them in a manner that it fits the game 08:04:13 <norbert79> "Supported file formats include mod, stm, s3m, mtm, xm, and it" 08:04:23 <peter1138> no point in supporting those, you might as well just support ogg vorbis 08:04:36 <norbert79> true, yet in size these are way smaller 08:04:41 <peter1138> and there's already patches for that 08:04:50 <appe> making the sfx stuff seems really neat. but i can say i kind of pooped my pants when i started thinking about making an openttd tron soundtrack. 08:04:55 <norbert79> pity it never got into main 08:05:09 <planetmaker> norbert79: I bet I have not seen a file for most of those formats 08:05:23 <norbert79> planetmaker: The files are not to be blamed because of this ;-) 08:05:38 <planetmaker> norbert79: no. But it tells how common they are 08:05:47 <norbert79> planetmaker: One game, which used an own format of MOD was Crusader - No Remorse for example 08:06:31 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, guess you never felt connected tom any scene movement then... It was/is well beloved there, and they provide the easiest tools for beginner composers 08:07:12 <Korenn> norbert79: I've seen and used all of those file formats in the past 08:07:22 <norbert79> MIDI is just PITA, becuase you rely on your soundcard or SF2 samples, which are hard to get/make, where Fasttracker (XM) provides the possibility using wav samples 08:07:41 <norbert79> Korenn: At least one who is familiar with it :) 08:07:45 <Korenn> yep, and it guarantees that it sounds the same on all systems 08:07:51 <norbert79> exactly 08:08:13 <norbert79> while MIDI can make some weird things... SF2 might not contain right samples you need for example 08:08:26 <Korenn> But peter1138 is right, might as well just support ogg vorbis and be done with it 08:08:58 <norbert79> Korenn: Sure, but transforming the title music into OGG would make a rather huge file, while the same in IT for example would be almost as big as the current MIDI 08:09:22 <norbert79> ok, a bit bigger, because of the samples, but way smaller, than the OGG 08:09:26 <Korenn> IT was... Infinity Trigger, right? 08:09:32 <norbert79> Impulse Tracker 08:09:33 <Korenn> tracker* 08:09:37 <Korenn> oh derp yes 08:09:43 <Korenn> long time ago :P 08:10:08 <norbert79> I can clearly remember the fight between Fasttracker users and Impulse Tracker fans :)) 08:10:28 <appe> trackers :( 08:10:46 <Korenn> I only wrote the reader bits for in my programs, they were much the same there (import a lib) 08:10:49 <planetmaker> norbert79: adding support for any other music format would not mean to remove support for midi... 08:10:59 <planetmaker> thus nothing would need conversion 08:11:11 <norbert79> planetmaker: Right, forgat 08:11:26 <norbert79> so nothing against supportin g tracker formats then, right? ;-) 08:11:31 <Terkhen> yes, supporting only heavy formats such as ogg or mp3 is not an option for distribution, it would need to support ogg/mp3/whatever and still midi 08:11:44 <peter1138> argument against supporting anythign extra is "use your usual media player" 08:11:53 <planetmaker> yeah 08:12:02 <Terkhen> that's what I was going to say, I haven't used the music in OpenTTD in ages :P 08:12:06 <peter1138> http://i.imgur.com/UDUXJ.png 08:12:09 <peter1138> trudat 08:12:11 <planetmaker> Though one can argue that a better "out of the box" experience wrt sound might be nicer 08:12:26 <peter1138> it's only a bit pants on linux 08:12:37 <peter1138> and only because i never finished the sdlmixer patch 08:12:41 <Terkhen> I just have the mp3 version of the original soundtrack that someone did between the rest of my music :P 08:12:51 <norbert79> peter1138: Pity... Even German Truck Simulator has MP3, OGG support, including support for Internet MP3 streams too. Not saying OpenTTD would need it, just saying, that some do support additional methods, than "regular music player" 08:13:19 <peter1138> like people wanting the gui to support skinning 08:13:29 <peter1138> why... it's game, not a desktop environment 08:13:50 <norbert79> peter1138: Because it's more attractive having it inside the game, not needed to launch one more application... 08:14:02 <norbert79> peter1138: I prefer it... And as I could see from GTS players, they all love it 08:14:18 <norbert79> peter1138: got always asked, how I did enable it 08:14:49 <Terkhen> meh, that image reminded me that all of the games I'm expecting will be coming with loads of stupid DLC 08:15:04 <peter1138> sorry 08:15:18 <norbert79> Terkhen: Aye, this new method of DLC is just abusing gameplay, and making players life a hell 08:15:27 <norbert79> Terkhen: Mafia 2 is a good example for that 08:15:37 <Terkhen> for example, I'm completely ignoring Civilization IV 08:15:40 <Terkhen> sorry, V 08:15:46 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-123-161.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 08:15:55 <Terkhen> they released a GOTY recently and even that is missing some DLC 08:16:02 <norbert79> Terkhen: Civ 5? 08:16:05 <Terkhen> yes 08:16:09 <norbert79> Understand 08:16:31 <norbert79> The best DLC collection well sold was Heroes 3 Complete. All patched up, having all addons... 08:16:37 <Ammler> <Eddi|zuHause> [03:50:51] Ammler: it's quite annoying that the error log in the ticket throws 404 after a new version was compiled <-- that means, the error is resolved 08:16:42 <Terkhen> mass effect 2 was completely loaded with DLC and mass effect 3 will likely be worse 08:16:54 <Terkhen> at least portal 2 DLC is free and updates automatically but in general... meh 08:17:22 <norbert79> Terkhen: I am also for copy-paste game, start, enjoy, or Install and enjoy (withoutn activiation and such) 08:17:58 <norbert79> Terkhen: I have started making my purchased games storing this way. All installed, pached up, CD-ROM/DVD check removed, registry keys stored where necessary 08:18:18 <norbert79> Terkhen: Despite I own them in original... GOG.com provides this purchase method 08:18:50 <Terkhen> I include them already installed, updated and configured in my hard disk image :P 08:19:06 <norbert79> Terkhen: I store my favorites on a Pendrive, including OpenTTD :) 08:19:26 <norbert79> where possible Linux/Windows binaries included 08:20:21 <norbert79> DLC... It's all about making users buying the same thing over and over again 08:20:57 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-119-234.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:20:59 <Terkhen> IMO it is breaking what should have been a single game into a lot of small, expensive pieces 08:21:36 <norbert79> Terkhen: And some even though need further addons making it a bit more enjoyable... Nowadays you don't own a game, the game owns you. 08:21:37 <dihedral> good morning 08:21:42 <norbert79> morning dihedral 08:21:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: no, it didn't, the error log was stored under the next revision, but the ticket was not updated 08:21:47 <Terkhen> hi dihedral 08:21:50 <dihedral> you are quick norbert79 08:21:51 <planetmaker> hi dihedral 08:21:56 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 08:21:57 <appe> heroes 3. 08:21:57 <appe> <3 08:22:02 <dihedral> too fast... too fast :-( 08:22:04 <norbert79> dihedral: Sure 08:22:07 <dihedral> na, just kidding ;-) 08:22:08 <dihedral> hi 08:22:13 <norbert79> dihedral: That's what she said! :D 08:22:32 <dihedral> she said 'hi'? 08:22:33 <dihedral> :-P 08:22:38 <dihedral> or 'just kidding' :-P 08:22:45 <dihedral> don't answer! 08:22:56 <Terkhen> that's what she said 08:23:02 <norbert79> lol 08:23:08 <dihedral> :-D 08:24:49 <norbert79> Terkhen: But you see I wouldn't even mind DLC's, if it would be possible modding them easy, or at least I don't have to break through several methods doing so. SWAT 4 provides such nice features, Duke Nukem 3D was also nice on that, Hidden and Dangerous 2 and Mafia 1 didn't yet users were able creating whole bunch of tools for them... 08:25:12 <norbert79> oh and Doom 3 was also easy to mod 08:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: take https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3145 ... the ticket has a link to http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/push/ERROR/r240 then there was an unrelated commit which moved the error log to http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/push/ERROR/r241 08:26:19 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 08:27:12 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A734.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:28:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: but why remove them at all? 08:32:56 *** PeanutHorst [~peanutlx@115-64-68-182.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 08:38:48 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:35 <Ammler> why keep it at all? 08:42:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: what if i want to browse through older tickets? 08:42:26 <Ammler> hmm, the issue should link to ERROR only 08:42:42 <Ammler> the issue is there 08:42:50 <Ammler> just the ERROR bundle is gone 08:43:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, i get some nonsense and a 404 08:43:12 <Ammler> (if there is a new ERROR bundle or a succeeded build) 08:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: nothing which hints to what the original error was 08:44:33 <Ammler> yep, I would add part of the error log to the ticket directly 08:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and i still need email on commit 08:46:23 <Ammler> I still wait for the patch :-P 08:47:04 <Ammler> but I once started with at least testing the notify extension 08:47:59 <Ammler> the issue is I need to change the repos which are now in "bare" mode on the server 08:48:44 <Eddi|zuHause> how do commits end up on the activity page? 08:48:52 <Ammler> so we can have a list in .devzone, who to mail 08:49:16 <norbert79> Hehhe @ http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/x11.png 08:49:28 <Ammler> there runs a hook on every push 08:49:53 <Ammler> which does trigger redmine to fetch and compiler to possibilty build 08:50:18 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: linking to the png directly is useless 08:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: it cuts off half the joke, the mousover text 08:50:41 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Ok, it's today's one 08:50:52 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: so http://www.xkcd.com 08:51:02 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Noted! 08:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: use the permanent link noted below. i.e. http://xkcd.com/963/ 08:51:57 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: isn't that the alternative text which explains the image for text browsers? 08:52:09 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Have xkcd.com in my Feed reader... But sure 08:52:18 <Ammler> ah no, title 08:52:26 <norbert79> Ammler: This time no hover-text is necessary... :) 08:52:28 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-189-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:52:34 <norbert79> Ammler: It speaks for itself :)) 08:52:42 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 08:53:41 <Ammler> norbert79: well, I use suse, so I never had to edit that file :-) 08:54:34 <norbert79> Ammler: Guess you didn't start with Suse 7.1 ;-) 08:55:17 <peter1138> xorg doesn't need editing on modern systems 08:55:27 <peter1138> unless you're using those binary nvidia drivers, heh 08:55:35 <norbert79> peter1138: It did need some back in Gutsy of Ubuntu... 08:55:50 <norbert79> peter1138: But recent Nvidia drivers doesn't nee that anymore neither, if you install it from repos 08:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i use the binary ati drivers... and needed to edit this plenty of times 08:57:01 <Ammler> norbert79: yes, around 7.1, but at that time not very much Desktop 08:57:57 <norbert79> Ammler: Well, it sure was... XFree86 is still annoying, X.Org is way better nowadays. (Xfree86 is still used in many Server based Linux distributions, like Red Hat Enterprise) 08:58:09 <Ammler> as I used deskops there was a gui called sax on suse 08:58:38 <norbert79> That was an addon helper, yes, not part of regular XFree86 though 08:58:49 <norbert79> it was Suse only 09:03:56 <b_jonas> actually both of them are annoying, but X.Org possibly less so 09:05:26 <peter1138> suse was a pita 09:05:27 <Terkhen> :P 09:05:30 <peter1138> <3 debian 09:05:55 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 09:06:46 <Terkhen> do you know of any NewGRF that includes multiple cargos with town effect food or town effect water? 09:09:19 <norbert79> ECS? FIRS? 09:09:40 <norbert79> Not sure though 09:09:44 <Terkhen> neither am I 09:09:50 * Terkhen hacks one 09:10:39 <b_jonas> you think people can survive on substitutes instead of real water or food? 09:11:11 <Korenn> Terkhen: I noticed that Frosch defined a callback for the cargo display in towns... 09:11:14 <Terkhen> in my hack they are going to survive by eating raw coal and melted steel 09:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS has several for food, iirc (milk, fruit, ...) 09:11:26 <Terkhen> Korenn: which one? 09:11:32 <b_jonas> heh 09:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and several for goods (alcohol, building materials) 09:11:56 <Terkhen> Cargo requirement information callback <--- do you mean that one? 09:12:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and it makes goods a water cargo 09:12:29 <Korenn> yeah 09:12:48 <Terkhen> right now my changes remove the display of delivered cargo completely, as its current implementation does not make sense 09:13:04 <Terkhen> right now it just uses the name and unit amount of the first cargo found with a given town effect 09:13:10 <Korenn> well, a better default is always good ;) 09:13:19 <Terkhen> but if for example you have two cargos with TE_FOOD, one of them liquid and other in crates 09:13:33 <Terkhen> it could say 500 crates of canned food 09:13:42 <Terkhen> when in reality it is 250 and 250 of each 09:13:52 <Terkhen> also it counts the TE, which is not the same as cargo units 09:14:02 <Terkhen> you could define a cargo with a double TE 09:14:12 <Terkhen> and right now it would be displayed with twice the correct amount 09:14:54 <b_jonas> the townspeople lie that they need more food than they can actually survive on? I think that's completely normal. 09:14:54 <Terkhen> of course removing them is just a temporal solution while I hack the rest of the code, losing features is never seen as a good thing :) 09:15:10 <Korenn> Terkhen: right, so the newgrf callback probably makes the most sense 09:15:39 <b_jonas> If they told you the actual minimum amount they need, you'd sure give them 20 percent less at the next budget cut. 09:15:58 <Terkhen> indeed... but I don't know the best way to show the default amounts :) 09:17:22 <b_jonas> By the way, it would be nice if the buy new vehicles list told me the capacity of a car it would have after refitting, eg. âRefittable to: 10 tons of coal, 6 items of livestockâ 09:17:42 <norbert79> I think it already does that 09:17:49 <norbert79> at least for planes 09:17:54 <norbert79> by default 09:18:39 <Terkhen> it does it already, yes 09:20:55 <b_jonas> it doesn't do that for me: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/ottd.png 09:21:26 <b_jonas> It says âCapacity: 20 bags of mail (refittable). Refittable to: Mail, Goods, Livestock.â 09:21:30 <norbert79> b_jonas: Go inside the refit 09:21:35 <norbert79> b_jonas: You will see it there 09:22:06 <b_jonas> norbert79: oh sure, once I've bought the car and an engine for it, I can go in the refit window and see it there 09:22:23 <b_jonas> but I'd like to see it when I'm selecting the cars 09:22:53 <Terkhen> it would be too long in some cases IMO 09:22:56 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.30.129.177] has joined #openttd 09:23:16 <b_jonas> given that here I have to choose between Covered Carriage Truck and Livestock Van, and there's no way to know which one carries 6 and which one carries 8 items of livestock. 09:23:20 <norbert79> I understand. Well, is it this important? Normally a car is bought for a specific cargo, and refits are only necessary under special circumstances 09:23:29 <b_jonas> norbert79: that depends on the grf 09:23:54 <Korenn> indeed 09:23:55 <b_jonas> this is using UKRS2 where you have to use refit on cars 09:24:03 <norbert79> b_jonas: Well, there you got the main core of the problem. It's depending on the GRF 09:24:03 <Korenn> most advanced grfs use generic wagons and refits are the norm 09:24:31 <b_jonas> (for ships it's worse) 09:24:33 <planetmaker> it simply make no sense to offer 2 dozen bulk wagons 09:24:35 <Korenn> a situation I much prefer, personally. Less clutter in the buy window 09:24:49 <norbert79> b_jonas: Hard to satisfy anyone needs, so I guess it's not listed there... besides, if a wagon could be refitted to 10 different products it would make the window look ugly 09:25:12 <b_jonas> well, I'd like separate wagons so that they have separate looks 09:25:19 <Korenn> a number added to the cargo type wouldn't make that much of a difference 09:25:26 <Korenn> large refit lists already look ugly as it is 09:25:34 <b_jonas> but you're right in that the refit list for a ship can be very long 09:25:40 <norbert79> b_jonas: I on the other hand sometimes refit planes being able flying with cargo, but I am ok with current solution. 09:26:15 <Korenn> b_jonas: sets like cc2 have separate looks for their refits, mostly. 09:26:19 <Korenn> 2cc* 09:26:45 <b_jonas> yep, and in UKRS2 if I attach wagons the look of the engine changes 09:26:51 <b_jonas> which is quite the opposite from other sets 09:27:00 <b_jonas> where the look of the cars change if you attach an engine 09:27:07 <b_jonas> funny 09:27:23 <Terkhen> :P 09:27:53 <b_jonas> Korenn: sadly it might not be just a number 09:28:31 <b_jonas> Korenn: it would have to change from "Livestock, " to "6 items of Livestock, " and from "Oil" to "50,000 tons of Oil, " or something like that 09:28:39 <Korenn> yea, I guess 09:29:00 <Korenn> '6 livestock' would suffice information wise, but people would complain :P 09:29:08 <b_jonas> though Oil is usually not a problem because it's carried by separate liquid vehicles which have short refit lists 09:29:21 <b_jonas> Korenn: 6 livestock might, but how about 5 oil?\ 09:29:26 <Korenn> works for me 09:29:39 <Korenn> I already think in that frame anyway 09:29:42 <norbert79> way too long to display in the buying window 09:29:45 <b_jonas> hmm, it's not actually "50,000 tons of Oil". that would be a bit too much. 09:29:45 <Korenn> but that's cause I'm a programmer :P 09:30:13 <norbert79> let's not forget, that OpenTTD comes in 640x480 as default resolution 09:30:35 <Terkhen> :P 09:30:55 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:31:00 <norbert79> so whatever you would like to include, it must fit :) 09:31:04 <Korenn> If there was a setting that allowed turning off the unit of measurement for cargo, I'd have it off all the time 09:31:33 <b_jonas> maybe it should say "6 cows"? "livestock" or "cattle" needs a qualifier in English 09:31:57 <norbert79> b_jonas: Still how do you measure weight or liquid without saying Litre or Kg/Tons? 09:32:03 <b_jonas> and "10 shirts" because trousers doesn't seem to have a synonym that goes without "pair" 09:32:05 <norbert79> doesn't make too much sense 09:32:23 <b_jonas> norbert79: yes, but like I said, liquid carrier vehicles usually have short refit lists 09:32:35 <b_jonas> norbert79: so it would be just "5 barrels of oil, 5 barrels of water" 09:32:46 <norbert79> b_jonas: What about grains? Even Liquid carrier could be refit to it... 09:32:47 <Korenn> b_jonas: until someone writes an industry grf with two dozen liquid cargoes :) 09:33:12 <b_jonas> Korenn: that would make the refit list long even if it's just listing the type of cargos 09:33:13 <norbert79> b_jonas: Or milk... 09:33:25 <b_jonas> norbert79: liquid carriers can refit to grain? hmm 09:33:28 <norbert79> b_jonas: That's why not a good idea making it even larger 09:33:47 <norbert79> b_jonas: Think on trucks, while they have those barrell like of load 09:33:54 <b_jonas> that could be a problem, yes 09:33:59 <norbert79> b_jonas: Sometimes grains are being transported with it 09:34:02 <Terkhen> 5 liquid cargos for trucks in FIRS, another 5 in ECS 09:34:53 <b_jonas> how about using "5 t grains" instead of "5 tons of grain"? 09:35:01 <b_jonas> um, I mean "5 t grain" 09:35:10 <norbert79> looks ugly a bit 09:35:21 <norbert79> but still it only saves a few characters 09:35:38 <norbert79> 6 to be precise 09:35:42 <Terkhen> you can change units for cargos via NewGRFs already 09:35:52 <Terkhen> it can even be 5 grain if you want to 09:35:56 <Terkhen> or 5 09:35:57 <norbert79> lol 09:36:08 <norbert79> 5 grain... Like the three 3 beans 09:36:13 <norbert79> three beans I mean 09:36:26 <norbert79> wow, 5 pieces of grain making a vehicle full 09:36:28 <Elukka> i don't really get why liquids aren't just measured in tonnes like everything ense 09:36:30 <Elukka> *else 09:36:40 <norbert79> Elukka: Becuase misleading 09:36:49 <norbert79> Elukka: 5 tons of milk is not as much as 5 tons of water 09:36:49 <b_jonas> as another solution, 09:36:56 <Elukka> it very roughly is 09:36:59 <norbert79> milk weighs more 09:37:23 <norbert79> Oil and Petrol is lighter, than water 09:37:28 <b_jonas> what if when you choose "Livestock" from the filter list in the new vehicles window, it shows "Capacity: 6 tons of Livestock" instead of the original capacity, and also buys the carriage refitted? 09:37:32 <Elukka> coal is lighter than iron ore 09:37:40 <Elukka> it's still measured the same in game 09:37:41 <b_jonas> (The original capacity being 20 bags of mail) 09:37:55 <norbert79> Elukka: You are mixing up phsical forms. Ever seen liquid coal? 09:38:09 <Elukka> what? 09:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's called oil 09:38:14 <Elukka> liquids have mass just the same as solids 09:38:24 <norbert79> Elukka: You still seems not getting it... 09:38:39 <Elukka> yeah, i'm not sure what you're trying to say 09:38:48 <norbert79> Elukka: Milk is less in litres when measured in wight, than water 09:39:03 <norbert79> noone counts liquids in weight 09:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: what's lighter, one tonne of feathers or one tonne of steel? 09:39:08 <Elukka> sure they do 09:39:11 <norbert79> Like you would buy 1kg of Milk or 1 litre of milk? 09:39:19 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: both are still rigid 09:39:22 <Elukka> and solids vary in density just the same as liquids 09:39:26 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: lots of places measure weights of liquids 09:39:48 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Ok, go and cook using weights... Don't be suprised looked at stupid. 09:39:50 <Elukka> aircraft (fuel), indeed real life tanker cars... 09:39:56 <b_jonas> in fact, it should say "Capacity: 6 items of livestock (refitted)" instead of "Capacity: 20 bags of mail (refittable)" when you are using livestock as the filter 09:39:57 <Elukka> both use weight for liquids 09:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: if you have a tank truck for oil you measure its weight empty, and then its weight full 09:40:14 <norbert79> Elukka: Main measurmenet is gallons 09:40:38 <norbert79> Elukka: Weight has only a n importance when calulcating thew cargo included 09:40:42 <Elukka> the critical measurement on a railcar is mass 09:40:45 <norbert79> Elukka: because it affects how a plane flies 09:40:53 <Elukka> if a tanker is built to take 50 tonnes you can't load it for more than 50 tonnes 09:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: because it's way easier to measure mass than volume 09:40:57 <Korenn> b_jonas: it would be even better if the refittable cargo in the list is clickable, and it would then show the information for that refit 09:40:58 <norbert79> Elukka: But it's important how much gallons a plane has 09:41:06 <Elukka> you can load it for less if you're loading it with something less dense 09:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: no, it's not 09:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: the volume is completely unimportant for the plane 09:41:27 <Elukka> yeah 09:41:38 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: This is what you think. Ok, go and fill your car with fuel based on kg's... 09:41:38 <b_jonas> Korenn: perhaps, but that might be more difficult to implement, and you'd probably know what cargo you want to transport if you want to choose a car anyway 09:41:39 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: the mass is important for getting you anywhere. the volume changes with temperature 09:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: that's actually what they do, they just show the litres for convenience 09:42:01 <Korenn> b_jonas: yeah, but the drop down selection is unwieldy if you need to switch a lot 09:42:03 <b_jonas> Korenn: I mean, if you already know the cars well then you don't read the info so it doesn't matter it doesn't tell the refitted capacity, 09:42:12 <b_jonas> but if you don't know them, then you want to filter. 09:42:32 <Elukka> norbert, you're only listing special cases where liquids aren't measured in mass 09:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: if the tank station says you put in 50 litres, you've actually put in like 55 litres 09:42:40 <Korenn> I do think it could use some thought - it's currently way too much of a hassle if you want to add a bunch of wagons where half are refitted to a different cargo 09:42:45 <Elukka> for both aircraft and rail vehicles mass is more important than volume 09:42:49 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Still wrong. If I would fill my car in litres in summer, it would be the same ammount of litre of fuel in winter too... 09:42:55 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Way wrong 09:42:58 <b_jonas> By the way, shouldn't the filters also include things like engine, break van, engine that goes on non-electric rails? 09:43:03 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: That's defined in standards. 09:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: the tank stations list litres calculated for 15°C 09:43:21 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: but that has nothing to do with the litres you actually put in 09:43:28 <Eddi|zuHause> at current temperatures 09:43:36 <planetmaker> can I buy tanks at the tank station? 09:43:36 <b_jonas> Korenn: it's usually not an issue because you cars aren't refittable to too many things 09:43:46 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Well, I know different... I guess your local stations must been cheating then :) 09:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and i have to go... 09:43:52 <b_jonas> Korenn: so you can just add the covered wagons and the open wagons, then refit all to livestock then refit all to grain 09:43:53 <planetmaker> or just comparitively harmless fuel? ;-) 09:44:01 <Korenn> planetmaker: it only accepts tanks 09:44:11 <b_jonas> Korenn: and get the covered cars carrying livestock and the open ones carrying grain. 09:44:23 <Elukka> norbert79: why do think liquids can't or aren't ever measured in kg or tonnes? 09:44:37 <Korenn> b_jonas: that only works in that specific case 09:44:46 <b_jonas> Korenn: it also works with mail and passengers. 09:44:52 <planetmaker> Elukka: they are... 09:44:54 <norbert79> Elukka: I am not sayixng they are not, but it also depends for what calculations they are using it. For example fighter planes never fill based on Kg's/tons but gallons/litres 09:44:57 <Korenn> b_jonas: but if you're playing FIRS and want to ship both stone and sand, it's a hassle 09:45:03 <b_jonas> Korenn: hmm 09:45:10 <b_jonas> I see 09:45:14 <b_jonas> I haven't played with FIRS 09:45:16 <norbert79> Elukka: Even passenger planes are calculating with gallons 09:45:23 <Korenn> same with ECS 09:45:54 <norbert79> Elukka: But this still does not solve the current problem. Kg is one character longer, than Litre (l) :) 09:45:54 <Korenn> they all go in hoppers, so you have to split up the wagons, refit, then swap to the other group, refit again, and add them together 09:45:58 <planetmaker> norbert79: or (metric) tons 09:46:00 <Elukka> i've seen aircraft fuel referred to in tons 09:46:03 <planetmaker> or litres 09:46:11 <Elukka> rocket fuel is almost always measured in tonnes too 09:46:34 <Korenn> norbert79: ,000 l is longer than t. ; 09:46:35 <Korenn> ;) 09:46:47 <norbert79> Elukka: Because it affects if a rocket can leave orbit or not... And since there is no control how fast the fuel burns no need to think in other, than kilograms 09:46:52 <Elukka> railway tanker car payloads are measured in both tonnes and volume, but the critical measurement is the mass 09:47:17 <norbert79> Elukka: So basically we are saying the same. It depends on the calculation the measurement is used for 09:47:18 <Elukka> liquids rockets are throttleable, there is control on how fast the fuel burns 09:47:25 <Korenn> liquid rail cargo is always expressed in weight, so that they can calculate required pull 09:47:30 <norbert79> Elukka: but the temperature stays the same 09:48:01 <Elukka> what's that got to do with anything 09:48:08 <Elukka> korenn, good point 09:48:21 <norbert79> Lunch time, later 09:48:40 <Elukka> i think it would also be less confusing for new players if oil fields produced 100 tonnes of oil rather than 100 000 l 09:48:44 <b_jonas> Is it possible for a car to be refitted to two different variants both carrying Goods with the same attributes but different graphics? 09:48:56 <b_jonas> I think some GRFs use different car models instead. 09:48:59 <Korenn> if the refits are defined, yep 09:49:09 <b_jonas> so in that case even the filter wouldn't help 09:49:22 <Korenn> they could even have differing capacity 09:49:23 <b_jonas> you'd have to split the train anyway if you wanted to transfer both cars and crates 09:49:31 <b_jonas> yes, I've seen different capacity 09:49:36 <Terkhen> hmm... I wonder if it would be possible to do a string code like {STRING5} that consumes an arbitrary number of strings 09:49:43 <b_jonas> FISH has one such ship 09:49:59 <Korenn> Terkhen: heh, also ran into missing STRING6? :P 09:50:08 <Terkhen> no, I need a custom one 09:50:44 <Korenn> b_jonas: but I like your suggestion of being able to pre-select a refit from the buy window a lot 09:50:48 <Korenn> it would make life a lot easier 09:50:51 <norbert79> Elukka: One thing: Volume and mass can be only used, where temperatures are not flexible. For liquids, in case for flexible temepratures, litre and gallons are used. That's the standard 09:50:54 <Terkhen> string_1, string_2, string_3, ..., string_n-1 or string_n <--- that's the output I want 09:50:57 <norbert79> Now I am off eating 09:51:02 <Elukka> not really 09:51:18 <Korenn> norbert79: you've got that totally backwards 09:51:27 <Elukka> liter and gallon are measurements of volume 09:51:29 <Korenn> in case of differing temperatures they use weight, as that's constant 09:51:29 * Terkhen tries to understand the string source code 09:51:30 <Elukka> volume varies by temperature 09:51:31 <Elukka> mass is a constant 09:51:46 <Yexo> Terkhen: if you need either STRING3 or STRING2 just use STRING3 09:52:10 <Yexo> just don't set the extra parameters via SetDParam and it'll just work 09:52:20 <b_jonas> I, having no talent for cooking, sometimes measure milk by weight with a kitchen scale so that I execute the recipe to the word. 09:52:28 <Korenn> Yexo: and when you need STRINGN ? 09:52:31 <b_jonas> However, in that case the recipe gives a volume. 09:52:40 <Terkhen> Yexo: I need an enumeration of cargos 09:52:40 <Yexo> STRINGn is not possible 09:52:50 <Terkhen> I was hacking it 09:52:55 <Korenn> I've always wondered why 09:52:55 <norbert79> Elukka: Still, tankers are limited by size, not by the fact how much weight they can swallow. You can't fill a wagon with 5 tons of oil for example at 45 °C, but for example at 10°C, since it's thicker... 09:53:00 <Terkhen> but when I wanted to add "or" I noticed that "or" should be translated too 09:53:05 <Elukka> they are limited by how much weight they can take, just like every other rail car 09:53:16 <Terkhen> if STRINGN is not possible I'll just add a string containing only "or" 09:53:21 <norbert79> Elukka: Ok, was a bad example, but you get the idea 09:53:27 <Korenn> variable length string arguments are a pretty common feature 09:53:38 <Elukka> cars are rated for a certain payload, track is rated for a certain axle weight 09:53:43 <b_jonas> Elukka: are the passenger and mail cars also limited to weight? 09:54:02 <b_jonas> I thoguht at least the passenger cars are limited more to volume. 09:54:04 <Elukka> well passenger cars are limited by how many seats there are 09:54:04 <norbert79> Elukka: But your car's tank is not limited to weight, but litres 09:54:06 <Yexo> Korenn: it's not possible because strgen (which is run at compile-time) needs to know the number of arguments 09:54:07 <Elukka> so effectively volume :P 09:54:13 <b_jonas> what? no way! 09:54:15 <b_jonas> seats? 09:54:18 <Terkhen> in theory, since you can only have 32 cargos, STRING32 would be enough for me... but I still need to add "or" between the two last strings 09:54:18 <Korenn> norbert79: in that case, they will always fill it with X tons of oil, so that the total volume will always safely fit 09:54:25 <norbert79> b_jonas: Don't think in Hungarian circumstances :D 09:54:25 <Terkhen> so I'll just hack it :P 09:54:29 <Elukka> norbert79: a hopper car built for iron ore is limited by liters when loaded with coal 09:54:38 <Elukka> does this mean coal should be measured in liters? 09:54:40 <Yexo> "{RAWSTRING} or {STRING}" ? 09:54:53 <b_jonas> :-) 09:54:53 <Korenn> there's a RAWSTRING? 09:55:04 <Terkhen> yes, I'm using RAW_STRING and strecat 09:55:07 <Yexo> yes 09:55:15 <norbert79> Elukka: Hopper car is a bad example since it's about how much the track can hold... 09:55:16 <Terkhen> that's how it's done in other parts of the code 09:55:26 <Elukka> no, it's the exact same thing as your example 09:55:43 <Elukka> all cars in real life have both mass and volume limits 09:55:55 <Elukka> it doesn't matter whether it transports liquids or solids 09:56:24 <Korenn> <norbert79> Elukka: But your car's tank is not limited to weight, but litres <- this is blatantly untrue. It does have a maximum volume, but they're never filled to the brim BECAUSE temperature changes 09:56:25 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928224508]] 09:56:25 <norbert79> Elukka: But think for example n a bottle. You won't fill it with 1dkg of water ta 1 litre big bottle at 90°C, but only with 9cl, since it varies in size, but you can do that at 4°C 09:56:33 <b_jonas> norbert79: well, even in Austria, some ski lifts have only standing passengers, no seats, though even there my idea of their capacity is much higher than some other people's. 09:56:50 <Elukka> yeah, volume varies 09:56:52 <Korenn> norbert79: now you're arguing the case for eight 09:56:52 <Elukka> mass doesn't 09:56:53 <norbert79> Korenn: Ok, that might be true 09:56:56 <Korenn> weight 09:57:01 <norbert79> Korenn: 09:57:02 <norbert79> Korenn: No 09:57:22 <b_jonas> so basically all cars have both volume and mass limits, but depending on the cargo one is usually much more restrictive than the other 09:57:30 <Elukka> yes 09:57:33 <norbert79> Korenn: I am merely pointing out, that if you buy 30 litres of Fuel for your tank, it varies on it's size, but it's always 30 litres, otherwise you get some nice decent fine 09:57:40 <norbert79> size=mass 09:57:52 <Elukka> no, you've got it the wrong way round 09:57:54 <norbert79> I have seen a civil case on this 09:57:57 <Elukka> mass does not vary 09:58:00 <Elukka> volume (liters) does 09:58:01 <norbert79> It does 09:58:22 <Elukka> it really doesn't :D 09:58:37 <norbert79> 30 litre of fuel must be 30 litre even in winter or in summer 09:58:48 <norbert79> even if it weighs more 09:58:50 <Elukka> volume varies depending on temperature 09:58:55 <Elukka> mass is always constant 09:58:58 <norbert79> Sure 09:59:00 <planetmaker> norbert79: 30l of fuel are 'standard litres'. Which is normed to a certain temperature 09:59:05 <norbert79> planetmaker: No 09:59:08 <norbert79> planetmaker: Not everywhere 09:59:20 <b_jonas> So fuel is cheaper in the winter? 09:59:25 <Elukka> this is honestly elementary school physics... 09:59:29 <norbert79> No, because you still have 30 litres 09:59:51 <norbert79> it's mass varies a bit in winter, but at a very certain small level 10:00:05 <Elukka> mass of a substance does not vary depending on temperature 10:00:17 <b_jonas> how much does the volume of fuel even vary in the temperature range that typically occurs in a gas station? 10:00:25 <norbert79> 30 litres of fuel in winter weighs a bit more, than in summer... 10:00:38 <b_jonas> I mean, it's not like they're selling you boiling gas 10:00:39 <Elukka> gas stations are probably a bad example if it's 'standard litres' and not real litres 10:00:53 <norbert79> b_jonas: As far as I know that's controlled, but I don't know how well does that work under extreme low temperatures 10:00:58 <Elukka> norbert no it doesn't 10:01:05 <Elukka> that doesn't make any sense 10:01:10 <b_jonas> A water tanker likely won't carry boiling water either. 10:01:21 <Elukka> the volume, measured in liters, varies with temperature 10:01:25 <Elukka> the mass, measured in kg, does not 10:02:03 <norbert79> 1dkg of water is not always 1 liter of water, it depends on the temperature, but 30l of fuel must be always 30 l of fuel 10:02:16 <Elukka> i'm not sure how i can explain it any other way... 10:02:45 <Elukka> 30 liters of fuel at -20c is not the same as 30 liters of fuel at +20c 10:02:46 <norbert79> I get it, but I am merely pointiojng out, that some measurements are not being valuclated in mass, because of the standards 10:02:57 <norbert79> now you are micing it up 10:03:04 <norbert79> 30 litres is always 30 litres 10:03:13 <Elukka> liters are a measurement of volume 10:03:16 <Elukka> volume varies with temperature 10:03:25 <planetmaker> no :-) 10:03:28 <planetmaker> density 10:03:34 <norbert79> thank you 10:03:39 <norbert79> that was the word I was looking for 10:03:47 <Elukka> the volume taken up by a certain amount of substance varies with temperature, more accurately 10:03:50 <Elukka> so yes, density 10:04:09 <Elukka> but the mass is always a constant 10:04:16 <planetmaker> as is volume ;-) 10:04:22 <norbert79> but 30 litre of water weighs less, than 30 litre of oil, if I don't consider temperature, and density changes with temperature 10:04:34 <Elukka> planetmaker, semantics 10:04:46 <planetmaker> norbert79: sure? That really depends on the oil 10:04:54 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ok, might been not the best example 10:04:56 <Elukka> 1 kg of water at 0 c takes up a different amount of volume than 1 kg of water at 20c 10:04:56 <b_jonas> or so you think. the mass of passengers might vary by season. 10:04:56 <planetmaker> my oil in the soup floats 10:05:10 <norbert79> planetmaker: I could have said heavy water too ;-) 10:05:16 <Elukka> ergo the volume of a given mass of water varies with temperature 10:05:16 <planetmaker> yes. And Earth's rotation speed varies by season 10:05:19 <Terkhen> urgh, messy code 10:05:23 <planetmaker> norbert79: that doesn't matter 10:05:49 <Elukka> but 1 kg of water is always 1 kg of water 10:05:52 <Terkhen> BTW, OpenTTD has no temperature, no pressure / gravity changes due to height and so on 10:06:01 <planetmaker> no?! :-( 10:06:06 <peter1138> REALISTIC GRAVITY 10:06:08 <planetmaker> though... temperature it has 10:06:14 <planetmaker> snowline :-) 10:06:33 <TinoDidriksen> 1 newton of water is always 1 newton...kg also differs depending on gravity. 10:06:34 <b_jonas> does it at least have weight changes depending on latitude? 10:06:51 <Terkhen> planetmaker: it's just a patch of white moss that moves around 10:06:55 <planetmaker> TinoDidriksen: kg is a _mass_ unit. Not a force unit 10:07:02 <planetmaker> thus it doesn't depend on gravity 10:07:08 <Terkhen> b_jonas: it does not have latitude either, the world is flat 10:07:13 <Elukka> TinoDidriksen: kg is a unit of mass, not weight 10:07:22 <Elukka> 1 kg on earth is also 1 kg on the moon 10:07:38 <Elukka> weight is what varies 10:08:30 <norbert79> Elukka: Yet 1 kg might not have the same force :) 10:08:44 <Elukka> yes but it is still a mass of 1 kg 10:08:44 <norbert79> Elukka: Since the Moon has less gravity 10:08:44 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe we should have first class passenger wagons: they have less capacity but passengers pay more for transport in them 10:08:56 <Elukka> that's irrelevant 10:09:17 <Elukka> weight is measured in newtons 10:09:19 <norbert79> Elukka: Not really... Especially when you design tracks on the Moon ;-)) 10:09:25 <Terkhen> b_jonas: create a new cargo called Tourists or First Class Passengers 10:09:29 <Elukka> this is the force exerted by a graviational field 10:09:34 <b_jonas> yep, it might be better as a new cargo 10:09:47 <b_jonas> we'd have Tourists and Managers 10:10:12 <Elukka> if your rover masses 500 kg on earth, it'll also mass 500 kg on the moon... 10:10:27 <Elukka> it'll also mass 500 kg in freefall ('zero gravity'), for that matter 10:10:49 <b_jonas> isn't the moon a completely different climate so you can't even compare cargo with it? 10:10:54 <TinoDidriksen> Ok, talking about mass kg...yes, 1 kg mass is 1kg mass. 1 kg of weight is not; I see they call that kgf. 10:11:07 <norbert79> Sure, but it has no more value... Mass in itself is nothing, when there is no gravitational force 10:11:25 <Elukka> mass is everything 10:11:37 <Elukka> even if there is no gravitational force there is mass 10:11:42 <norbert79> sure, so? 10:11:48 <planetmaker> norbert79: that's wrong by so many accounts... 10:12:03 <b_jonas> norbert79: tell me that again when I throw a heavy iron ball towards your head 10:12:06 <planetmaker> ... I can't even start on summing it up 10:12:12 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, I could push happily 500kgs on the moon while on earth it would be unmovable 10:12:16 <Elukka> if you want to move in space, you have to expend a certain amount of mass in the opposite direction 10:12:23 <Elukka> if your spaceship masses more you need to expend more mass (fuel) 10:12:27 <Elukka> this is how any kind of rocket works 10:12:41 <norbert79> b_jonas: a bullet is also a few grams big, still deadly :) 10:12:46 <Terkhen> reread the first newton law 10:13:51 <norbert79> A 500kg of rock would do no harm if placed onto something on the Moon, where on the Earth it might make it collapse. 10:13:58 <Korenn> <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, I could push happily 500kgs on the moon while on earth it would be unmovable <- again, untrue. You're glossing over the parameters that actually count - friction on the mass and yourself. 10:14:04 <norbert79> because Moon has a smaller gravitational force 10:14:06 <Korenn> given low friction, you can push 500 kg on earth 10:14:08 <Elukka> that is true 10:14:11 <Korenn> given high friction, you can't on the moon 10:14:14 <Elukka> the mass is still 500 kg though 10:14:29 <norbert79> but mass is useless without force... 10:14:29 <planetmaker> quite so 10:14:32 <Elukka> no it isn't 10:14:43 <norbert79> why? 10:14:46 <Elukka> mass is the most criticial measurement for anything operating in weightlessness 10:14:46 <planetmaker> mass is absolutely NOT useless w/o friction 10:14:49 <Elukka> spacecraft, namely 10:15:06 <planetmaker> it's one of the 7 fundamental units in universe... 10:15:12 <Korenn> or nuclear fusion ;) 10:15:14 <Elukka> celestial bodies are also measured in mass 10:15:24 <norbert79> if nothing is having any force on an object in free space, would it matter if it weighs 5 grams or 500kg? 10:15:42 <Elukka> yes 10:15:43 <planetmaker> yes 10:15:56 <TinoDidriksen> It would exert a gravitational force, which would matter. 10:16:02 <planetmaker> they keyword is momentum conservation 10:16:13 <planetmaker> don't think in forces. They're boring 10:16:21 <Korenn> mass = energy 10:16:33 <Elukka> the earth masses roughly 6 x 10^24 kilograms 10:16:34 <Elukka> it's in freefall 10:16:41 <Elukka> its mass is still certainly relevant, though 10:16:44 <planetmaker> hm... I shouldn't say, they're boring. My thesis is mostly about one... damn 10:17:16 <Elukka> norbert79: you would have a much easier time pushing the 5 gram object compared to the 500 kg one 10:18:00 <Terkhen> so your thesis is boring? :P 10:18:19 <norbert79> Elukka: Sure, but I was merely comparing measuring weight on Earth and on the Moon, and it's value, since on moon you could fill an object with much more mass, than on earth, since the gravtianal force is much lower. 10:18:29 <Korenn> theses are always boring - otherwise you get reviewer complaints that it's 'too popular' :P 10:18:41 <Elukka> yes, weight does vary 10:19:29 <norbert79> Elukka: That's why I said mass (I always get confused with these terms/expressions) is nothing in itself, when there is no force in place... 10:19:49 <Elukka> i don't see how that makes sense 10:19:53 <norbert79> if we void gravitation 10:19:57 <Korenn> lol 10:20:04 <Korenn> if we void energy, everything is meaningless 10:20:30 <norbert79> it still makes fun :) 10:20:51 <Noldo> does this conversation have a point? 10:21:01 <norbert79> Noldo: No, that has been lost by now 10:21:04 <Korenn> if you have to discount fundamental properties of physics to make your point, you don't have one ;P 10:21:10 <norbert79> Noldo: but you missed a lot 10:21:29 <Noldo> have you heard of this thing called backlog 10:21:32 <norbert79> Korenn: Mathematicians do this often ;-) 10:22:11 <Korenn> but they don't attempt to argue physical points 10:22:34 <Noldo> don't go all meta on me now 10:22:36 <norbert79> Korenn: Sure, but I love how I was teached how a mathematicans prove something, and the use of contants... 10:23:03 <Korenn> Noldo: norbert79 made a nonsensical case for why cargo volume is constant, and the rest of the channel disagreed. 10:23:17 <norbert79> Korenn: Mass 10:23:24 <b_jonas> norbert79: do you know why train accidents are so deadly, and why in level crossings, trains always have the right of way over road vehicles? 10:23:33 <norbert79> Korenn: and I was merely trying to point out, that many times volume is considered instead of mass 10:23:46 <norbert79> Korenn: since density, but let's not start over 10:23:47 <Korenn> [11:58:32] <norbert79> 30 litre of fuel must be 30 litre even in winter or in summer 10:23:47 <Korenn> [11:58:44] <norbert79> even if it weighs more 10:23:55 <Korenn> seems you've been going in circles then 10:23:56 <Elukka> you were really making a case for using mass rather than volume, you just didn't notice ;) 10:24:06 <Korenn> indeed 10:24:11 <norbert79> Korenn: Yes. 30 litres is 30 litres. It's mass is different 10:24:11 <b_jonas> It turns out, reality is more complicated than we want, so weight, mass and volume all count with trains. 10:24:19 <Elukka> lol 10:25:25 <Elukka> still getting it the wrong way around :P 10:25:35 <Noldo> well... 10:25:54 <norbert79> Elukka: Let's make it simpler: Let's use what commercial companies also use. If it's mass for wagons for trains, so shall it be then 10:26:00 <Korenn> it is 10:26:03 <Korenn> they all do 10:26:23 <norbert79> then that's what the game shall also follow 10:26:31 <b_jonas> I still say that depends on the cargo 10:26:41 <b_jonas> passengers are counted using volume instead of mass 10:27:01 <norbert79> hmm, true 10:27:12 <Noldo> so is this the old guestion about which is heavier, kilogram of iron or kilo of feathers? 10:27:27 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-75-83.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 10:27:39 <norbert79> Noldo: No... We are merely trying to figure out which woulld be the best to used... Besides, on which planet? :) 10:27:47 <b_jonas> on trains and buses and cars at least -- in elevators it's their mass that matters 10:28:11 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 10:28:32 <b_jonas> smugglers swallowing drug capsules are also limited by volume 10:29:09 <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- what do you think? 10:29:27 <Terkhen> of the display, of course the cargos displayed are just a hack 10:29:33 <norbert79> b_jonas: Well, one solution could be that you go through each type of wagon/plane, etc, and you use what other also use. For buses, the ammount of people. Oil-wagon? Tons... Etc 10:29:35 <Elukka> looks good to me 10:29:53 <b_jonas> the luggages of passengers on buses is limited by volume, but on planes the check-in luggage is limited by mass and the hand luggage by volume 10:30:10 <norbert79> b_jonas: Let's just void luggage 10:30:28 <norbert79> Terkhen: Easy to translate too... Looks nice 10:30:43 <Terkhen> it only needs translation of the "or" string 10:30:43 <b_jonas> in ottd terms, luggage is part of the passengers I think 10:31:11 <Terkhen> the problem of this display is... how to display delivered cargos? 10:31:19 <norbert79> remove it 10:31:27 <b_jonas> and if there are passengers carrying less luggage (managers) and passengers carrying more luggage (skiers) then they should be different cargo type. 10:31:28 <Noldo> does the unit cargo is measured in really matter? 10:31:29 <Elukka> i think the only thing that doesn't make sense, but more importantly is a bit confusing, is the measurement of liquids in liters 10:31:35 <norbert79> if it has been delivered, no need to listing it as required 10:31:42 <Elukka> in ottd i mean 10:32:05 <b_jonas> Hey, let's transport everything and everyone in big fixed-size crates to simplify calculations! 10:32:07 <norbert79> Noldo: Well, it would be nice using right measurements in the game following standards 10:32:20 <norbert79> b_jonas: Ok, may I start with you? Need a lift to somewhere? :)) 10:32:31 <norbert79> b_jonas: and how would you solve density? :) 10:33:09 <b_jonas> norbert79: come on, it can't be that much worse than the trams in the morning. 10:33:16 <Noldo> yeah, but being standard does not imply making sence 10:33:39 <Elukka> we measure the power of cars in the average daily power output of a working horse! 10:34:01 <norbert79> Elukka: How you made that pointed out makes that look very silly 10:34:04 <Elukka> often locomotives too 10:34:06 <Noldo> KW is the standard there actually 10:34:14 <norbert79> Noldo: Not everywhere 10:34:25 <b_jonas> Elukka: nah, hit points have nothing to do with horses, except in etimology 10:34:27 <Noldo> maybe not in non-standard countries 10:34:41 <Elukka> hit points? :P 10:34:53 <Korenn> Terkhen: aweseome! 10:34:54 <Elukka> horse powers certainly have to do with horses 10:35:19 <norbert79> Why? The tracks have been also defined by the size of the..backs of roman horses 10:35:24 <norbert79> railway tracks 10:35:25 <b_jonas> it says "hp", I think it means "hit points" or "health points", the amount of damage the vehicle can suffer before it gets destroyed 10:35:31 <b_jonas> it's not "horse power" 10:35:32 <Elukka> clever 10:35:49 <Korenn> <b_jonas> smugglers swallowing drug capsules are also limited by volume ... Time for a drugs transportation mod? :P 10:36:27 <norbert79> So if we consider the fact of horses, without horses not even trains could exist :) 10:36:38 <Elukka> it'll significantly increase your aircraft profit, at the risk of getting caught and suffering a penalty with the local authority ;p 10:37:27 <b_jonas> Elukka: I don't think air traffic companies ever get from the profit. 10:37:41 <Elukka> in ottd it'd be the company doing it! 10:37:46 <norbert79> b_jonas: Well, what about airport security? 10:38:15 <Korenn> Elukka: you could write an entire mod about smuggling drugs from plantations to big cities :P 10:38:22 <Elukka> lol 10:39:10 <norbert79> And add grease-money to the expenses 10:39:31 <Korenn> and hiring enforcers 10:39:37 <norbert79> since you need to pay for paying up airport security, customes 10:39:41 <norbert79> customs 10:40:09 <norbert79> and dealers 10:40:21 <norbert79> since no station could be built for such 10:40:42 <b_jonas> I think that's already counted in the maintainence cost of the airplanes and airports. 10:41:29 <norbert79> b_jonas: Yet it would depend on the avaialbility of the different facilities being accessible, like schools, stadiums, bars... 10:41:35 <norbert79> in each town/city 10:41:42 <norbert79> the more places the more expenses 10:43:29 <Korenn> norbert79: instead of stations in town you'd build safe-houses. and fund processing labs 10:43:38 <norbert79> lol 10:43:52 <norbert79> ok, this is getting a bit being too much :) 10:44:14 <norbert79> starts reminding me on SWAT 4 TSS :) 10:44:31 <Korenn> given how well GTA does, if you'd make a good mod you could even sell it for money ;) 10:44:52 <norbert79> haven't played GTA since GTA 2.. 10:45:08 <norbert79> lost track of it 10:45:48 <b_jonas> Korenn: a mod? doesn't GTA already have drug trafficking? 10:46:04 <b_jonas> I thought drugs were the main point of the story 10:47:35 <Korenn> b_jonas: sure, but in ottd it would be more of a SIMS game ; 10:47:37 <Korenn> ;) 10:47:41 <Korenn> SIM* 10:48:22 <b_jonas> you know, I think ottd doesn't go well with that kind of story 10:48:54 <b_jonas> just think of Settlers of Catan: none of the official expansions have military nor much destroying the opponent's property 10:49:00 <b_jonas> there are unofficial mods, but not much played 10:49:23 <b_jonas> similarly, ottd is a peaceful game. adding violence or drugs just doesn't work with it. 10:49:59 <Terkhen> yup 10:50:04 <norbert79> Well, I liked Amnesia - The dark descent, and the fact, that the player cannot fight back.. a mod doing just like that would just make it less interesting. 10:50:31 <appe> uuh 10:50:33 <Korenn> b_jonas: it would work just fine. it would become a different setting and themed game, but it would work fine. 10:50:40 <appe> that game f*cked up my mind. 10:51:06 <Korenn> Tropico is more in that direction and is also a peaceful game, even though it has military presence 10:51:10 <appe> openttd is a serious game. please don't fuck it up with unrealistic shit. 10:51:12 <appe> thank you. 10:51:15 <appe> tropico!! 10:51:15 <norbert79> appe: Well, I loved it, I also like Undying too, where both were as scary as the other 10:51:16 <appe> <3<3<3 10:51:28 <Korenn> appe: that's ridiculously narrowminded 10:51:36 <appe> amnesia wasnt scary, it litteraly made my body switch poop side. 10:51:43 <b_jonas> Korenn: maybe if you keep just the engine core and transform it completely like roller coaster tycoon 10:52:13 <Korenn> it wouldn't need much changing to work - but yes, it wouldn't be ottd anymore :) 10:52:23 <norbert79> appe: :] ... Oh well, I was also scared when I first was attacked by a grunt... But then I managed it 10:52:54 <appe> Korenn: hows that. im narrowminded because i like the game as it is? :> 10:54:22 <appe> i hope you didnt missunderstand me, im simply tired of games trying to build itself on 'cool' elements 10:54:39 <Korenn> it's narrowminded to shoot down ideas that go in other directions because it's not what you know 10:54:41 <b_jonas> appe: I see 10:54:41 <norbert79> appe: Wolfenstein 3D had a killcam. That was cool :) 10:54:45 <appe> like drugs, drive-by's, zombies, tits or the war in iraq. 10:54:48 <Korenn> ALL games dev does that ;) 10:54:52 <V453000> [12:51] <appe> openttd is a serious game. please don't fuck it up with unrealistic shit. <- the unrealistic shit is the only thing which fucks openttd up so far ;) 10:55:21 <V453000> *I mean realistic 10:55:23 <V453000> you get the point .. 10:55:44 <b_jonas> that's true to many games 10:55:50 <norbert79> appe: Still, Max Payne somewhow still made it look awesome... 10:55:54 <b_jonas> trying to add realistic to it often makes it worse 10:55:59 <__ln__> did you just say the f word? 10:56:05 <appe> Korenn: ah, i didnt really shoot down on any idea, i tried to emphasize how i love the game as it is. 10:56:06 <b_jonas> if it's too much realistic at least 10:56:09 <appe> norbert79: horrible. 10:56:19 <appe> V453000: true. 10:56:31 <norbert79> appe: Why? The best game I have ever played, I loved each moment of the story... 10:56:43 <norbert79> appe: it bases itself on returning elements, still... 10:57:18 <norbert79> appe: Ok, it has no zombies, unless Jack Lupino could be called that 11:03:02 <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- there must be some better way to show this 11:04:39 <norbert79> hmm, small fonts would make it unreadable 11:04:49 <norbert79> what about symbols? 11:04:54 <appe> norbert79: that's of course a personal reference of mine. i cant get my head around shoot-stuff-in-awesome-graphics-games. 11:05:02 <Yexo> Terkhen: imo that grf makes little sense. "steel or water"? 11:05:11 <Yexo> "iron ore or livestock"? 11:05:17 <Yexo> I don't see coherence at all 11:05:27 <appe> what grf is that? 11:05:29 <Terkhen> the grf makes no sense at all, it is a hacked example so I have multiple cargos with the same town effect 11:05:30 <norbert79> Yexo: Either the town goes heavy industry or farming... 11:05:33 <appe> never seen iron ore be supplied to a town before. 11:05:53 <Yexo> norbert79: so a town in desert will grow when you provide coal and steel? 11:05:58 <Yexo> or oil and livestock? 11:06:27 <Terkhen> just imagine that they are cargos that make sense... I'm just trying to find a better way to display cargos required for growth when you have many with the same town effect 11:06:33 <norbert79> Yexo: Well, currently it doesn't differ too much from current solution in my opinion, so it is a bit more advanced anyhow 11:07:26 <Terkhen> what I want to know is: how to display that you already supplied the town with one of the required town effects? 11:12:43 <norbert79> Terkhen: Why don't you just remove that resource? 11:12:51 <norbert79> Terkhen: Why listing something, when delivered? 11:13:08 <norbert79> Terkhen: (I mean from the list) 11:13:08 <Terkhen> because you don't need all of them, you need a single unit of one of those cargos 11:13:33 <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, then you would just remove the one, which is equally satisfy the town 11:13:35 <Terkhen> if for example you have two food-like cargos, delivering either is fine for town growth 11:13:48 <norbert79> sure, then you would remove both food and water for example 11:14:00 <norbert79> if need rises, then it will be shown again 11:14:25 <Terkhen> I would prefer a more clear feedback of what is happening 11:14:37 <Terkhen> removing the strings will be confusing 11:14:42 <norbert79> why? 11:14:51 <norbert79> Need changes, right? 11:14:59 <norbert79> Eh, let me ask that different 11:15:12 <norbert79> the need for different resources is flexible, right? 11:15:27 <norbert79> sometimes wood is needed, but then later on water might be the issue 11:15:35 <Terkhen> no 11:15:48 <Terkhen> you just need a single unit of either cargo in each list 11:15:49 <norbert79> and then wood might come up again 11:15:54 <norbert79> oh 11:15:58 <Terkhen> if the first list is "fast food or healthy food" 11:16:03 <Terkhen> delivering a simple unit of fast food is enough 11:16:11 <norbert79> The marking it green and red where the resources is needed 11:16:29 <norbert79> why not continous supply? 11:16:30 <Korenn> color only is not good enough 11:16:37 <norbert79> why Korenn ? 11:16:37 <Korenn> for color blind people 11:16:40 <norbert79> true 11:16:43 <norbert79> ok, checkmarks 11:16:44 <Terkhen> norbert79: fixing how town growth works is outside of the scope of this patch 11:16:54 <Terkhen> this is just displaying stuff, fixing town growth will come later 11:17:03 <Terkhen> and yes, colours are not an option 11:17:30 <Terkhen> right now, it just displays the number of units delivered if you did it, but that's not an option when you have multiple types of cargos 11:18:42 <Korenn> colors are still nice. but shouldn't be the only way of displaying 11:18:53 <norbert79> why not listing it under each other, and mark it with a checkmark when satisfied need 11:19:02 <norbert79> the need 11:19:20 <planetmaker> we should replace all colours by dark green or dark red 11:19:28 <planetmaker> makes for a good UI and game experience 11:19:32 <Korenn> Terkhen: you could go 'Steel delivered' when the demand is satisfied. It's not strictly necessary to show all the possible cargoes when the demand has been met 11:19:44 <Terkhen> Korenn: there is no way to tell which cargo you delivered :) 11:19:55 <Korenn> true 11:19:59 <Korenn> Town Effect name? 11:20:07 <Terkhen> I could add it, it's going to be added later anyways 11:20:26 <Terkhen> planetmaker: the darker the colors, the more likely it becomes that I confuse them :P 11:20:47 <norbert79> Terkhen: Oh, I guess Tron-GRF would be not your thing then :) 11:21:00 <__ln__> norbert79: we do not speak of Tron 11:21:11 <Terkhen> giving town effects names is IMO a bad idea... if they don't have names NewGRF authors will be able to do whatever they want with them 11:21:19 <Terkhen> so it's better if we can avoid it 11:21:58 <Terkhen> I like the "list all delivered cargos" suggestion, and it also uses info that I would need anyways for what I'm planning 11:22:14 <Terkhen> yesterday, someone (I don't remember who, sorry) suggested to show all cargo stats in a separate window 11:22:23 <Terkhen> I think that would be a good idea 11:22:43 <Terkhen> it would show all cargos delivered and produced in the town 11:29:48 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-75-83.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:30:31 <Korenn> Terkhen: if they have names, those could also be changed by a grf 11:30:50 <Terkhen> yes, but if they don't have names, we don't need the additional work to provide tools to change them 11:31:14 <Korenn> a separate window would be acceptable, as long as there's still a quick overview in the main window where you can see if all demands have been met or not 11:31:30 <Terkhen> that's what I want, a way to display demands simply in the main window 11:31:42 <Terkhen> a long string between () is not that good IMO 11:32:13 <Korenn> At its simplest, a 'Town demands have been met' string would suffice, if the rest of the info is available elsewhere 11:32:57 <planetmaker> "citizens celebrate the 'day of the transport tycoon'" 11:34:04 <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- hmm... what about just changing "required" with "delivered last month" 11:35:32 <planetmaker> my suggestion: Required cargos: name1 [x], name2 [ ], name3 [x], ... 11:35:57 <planetmaker> where [x] indicates delivered and [ ] not yet delivered. Names could additionally be colour-coded 11:36:13 <planetmaker> and [x] could be the actual checkbox 11:36:29 <Korenn> Terkhen: or 'supplied' 11:36:48 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that will lead people to think that they need all cargos for growth 11:36:58 <Terkhen> but you only need one unit of either of them 11:37:05 <Korenn> planetmaker: there are different cargo groups that are all required, but inside the group it's an OR relation 11:38:21 <planetmaker> Then make such line for each such group :-) 11:38:31 <planetmaker> I didn't see groups in the screenshot and soley went by that 11:38:54 <Terkhen> there are two groups in the screenshots 11:39:00 <Terkhen> the first line is "food" and the second one "water" 11:39:41 <planetmaker> then I looked too sloppily and thought one is the cargos which are to be delivered and the other which are already 11:39:49 <planetmaker> might thus be a bit confusing in that representation 11:39:56 <Terkhen> that's the problem, I don't feel that the visualization is clear enough 11:40:24 <planetmaker> One of: blah, bluh, blub 11:40:37 <planetmaker> One of: nix, dies, das (already supplied) 11:40:57 <norbert79> or (supplied) 11:41:16 <planetmaker> already delivered 11:41:31 <norbert79> I think 'already' makes it unnecessary long 11:41:31 <Terkhen> the "last month" bit is important too 11:41:47 <Terkhen> so you get the idea that you need to deliver every month 11:42:02 <planetmaker> Cargo needed monthly for town growth: 11:42:06 <planetmaker> problem solved 11:42:06 <norbert79> Delivered so far this month: that, this, thus 11:42:20 <planetmaker> then the cargo lines don't need it again 11:42:31 <norbert79> yeah, good plan 11:43:09 <norbert79> doesn't differ too much from my original idea ;-) 11:43:11 <Terkhen> Delivered: cargo1, cargo2 or cargo3 <--- I'm not sure about that 11:43:22 <Terkhen> I like the monthly bit on the title, I'll change that 11:44:33 <norbert79> basically it's the same, when I said you should remove the cargo which has been delivered already 11:44:51 <norbert79> :P 11:45:05 <Terkhen> norbert79: you don't need all the cargos, delivering only one of them is fine 11:45:13 <planetmaker> nah. IMHO all cargo needs to remain written 11:45:30 <Terkhen> removing the one you delivered does not help the user, as he can't easily know which cargo he delivered or if he fulfills the requirements or not 11:45:53 <planetmaker> yes. And I might want to check it. Acceptance, requirements etc might change 11:46:00 <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, but since requirements for cargo changes each month, the list is being filled up again 11:46:03 <planetmaker> And I won't see that when the strings get removed 11:46:17 <Terkhen> so you need to wait for a month to know for sure? 11:46:35 <planetmaker> norbert79, and then have the info removed on the 2nd of the month again? 11:46:42 <planetmaker> that'd be VERY bad behaviour 11:46:55 <norbert79> well, some timeframe would be nice... Each month the list would be filled wiuth requirements, when fulfilled, removed, and then a new check would come in the next month 11:47:11 <planetmaker> we're only talking about the display 11:47:14 <norbert79> but it's just an idea. I would treat it like a list for buying groceries 11:47:22 <planetmaker> that e.g. the colour of the delivered cargos changes - great 11:47:28 <norbert79> each month I make a new list, but some items reappeart 11:47:29 <norbert79> -t 11:47:31 <Terkhen> again: you don't need all cargos 11:47:40 <Terkhen> we are trying to display if you fulfill town growth requirements or not 11:47:50 <Terkhen> and you fulfill them with just a single unit of each list 11:48:01 <norbert79> exactly. I also only list things which I need to buy every month, and not add everyone 11:48:03 <planetmaker> I keep up my suggestion. Per batch of cargos display one line: 11:48:16 <planetmaker> One of: cargo1, cargo2, cargo3, ... 11:48:20 <norbert79> everything... Damn I am bad with my English today 11:48:27 <planetmaker> where the actually delivered cargos are displayed in a different colour 11:48:29 <Terkhen> norbert79: how would you list "we need a single unit of either cargo1, cargo2, cargo3 or cargo4"? 11:48:50 <Terkhen> I'm not sure about the colours 11:48:57 <Terkhen> hmm... 11:49:07 <Terkhen> which colour could they use? 11:49:21 <planetmaker> red and green 11:49:22 <norbert79> Town needs resources of: cargo 1, cargo 2, cargo 3... Now if you fulfilled cargo 3 for the given month, until the end of the month it would be removed, but if again needed, reappear in the requirement list... 11:49:35 <planetmaker> or normal white and green for delivered 11:49:36 <Terkhen> norbert79: if you fulfill cargo 3, you fulfilled all of them 11:49:37 <norbert79> like a grocery list 11:49:39 <Terkhen> as you only need one of them 11:49:42 <norbert79> oh 11:49:51 <norbert79> why? 11:49:56 <Terkhen> because that's how the game works 11:50:04 <Terkhen> as I said, this patch does not try to change town growth yet 11:50:14 <Terkhen> just to display the vanilla way clearer 11:50:22 <planetmaker> norbert79, as you only can either eat a burger, a pizza or a döne 11:50:25 <planetmaker> *döner 11:50:37 <planetmaker> thus demand is met with one type of food 11:50:40 <norbert79> Call it Gyros, that's more known outside of Germany :) 11:50:46 <norbert79> but I got you 11:50:52 <planetmaker> norbert79, Gyros != Döner 11:50:52 <norbert79> hmm 11:51:01 <planetmaker> kebab maybe 11:51:08 <norbert79> planetmaker: I know, but many places around here don't 11:51:25 <norbert79> anyway, I get it 11:52:11 <Terkhen> hmmmmm 11:52:16 <norbert79> Town needs one type of the following resources to grow: 11:52:30 <Terkhen> I'm still not convinced, I think we are missing something 11:52:54 <norbert79> well, planetmaker's example made it clear, but since resources are not from the same type 11:52:59 <norbert79> we need to have them listed 11:53:11 <norbert79> like Water != Coal 11:53:15 <norbert79> no connection 11:53:21 <norbert79> you cannot say: liquids 11:54:34 <norbert79> grouping the resources would be nice, but not possible: "Location needs one type of resource to grow further:" 11:55:38 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I think the way you showed with more explicit wording will work 11:55:44 <norbert79> Casear 3 showed detailed messages, yet there was always just one resource/need to get satisfied 11:56:01 <Terkhen> which wording? :) 11:56:15 <Terkhen> right now I have: 11:56:16 <Terkhen> {ORANGE}Required: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (only in winter) 11:56:21 <Terkhen> {ORANGE}Delivered: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (only in winter) 11:56:30 <Terkhen> (and the versions without the winter addition) 11:56:44 <Terkhen> oh, and 11:56:45 <Terkhen> {BLACK}Cargo needed monthly for town growth: 11:57:04 <planetmaker> That's where I like to suggest to not prefix it by "Required" or "Delivered" but always by a "One of: " 11:57:20 <planetmaker> and postfix the string with (delivered) and / or (only in winter) 11:57:49 <planetmaker> hm.. In winter one of: 11:58:11 <norbert79> "One of:" might be misleading, making users think they would only need 1 tons/litres/whatever 11:58:15 <planetmaker> that makes clear that it is a continuous demand. And the info which is fulfilled comes after the primary information of "you need this" 11:58:23 <planetmaker> norbert79, which is true 11:58:27 <Terkhen> norbert79: you only need 1 ton / litre / whatever 11:58:35 <norbert79> oh 11:58:42 <norbert79> then it's solved :) 11:58:43 <Terkhen> yeah, the system is braindead as that :P 11:58:58 <planetmaker> even. If we change that, the string is easily changed to 11:59:04 <norbert79> for now, yes, but it might be changed futher on. 11:59:07 <norbert79> true 11:59:08 <Terkhen> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/636/ 11:59:17 <planetmaker> One of: butter (12t), coke (200l), peanuts (20t) 11:59:28 <Terkhen> nah, town growth will not change 11:59:34 <planetmaker> newgrf :-P 11:59:47 <norbert79> STR_TOWN_VIEW_CARGO_FOR_TOWNGROWTH_REQUIRED_SUPPLIED_WINTER :{ORANGE}One of: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (delivered) 11:59:53 <planetmaker> but that might be a condition too far 11:59:57 <Terkhen> newgrfs should have the option to remove the default view and substitute it with their own 12:00:05 <Terkhen> then you can do whatever you want 12:00:07 <norbert79> hmm, delivered, and "winter delivery" 12:00:08 <planetmaker> :-) 12:00:28 <Terkhen> is the winter info really necessary if you are delivering anyways? 12:00:41 <norbert79> Why is STR_TOWN_VIEW_CARGO_FOR_TOWNGROWTH_REQUIRED_SUPPLIED_WINTER there then? 12:00:41 <planetmaker> I'd add it 12:00:59 <planetmaker> In winter one of: {RAW_STRING} (delivered) 12:01:14 <Terkhen> winter delivery does not say "you only need to deliver in winter" 12:01:36 <norbert79> I like planetmaker's approach 12:01:38 <planetmaker> but it should ;-) 12:01:52 <planetmaker> delivery in summer has no influence 12:01:58 <norbert79> In winter, one of: 12:02:36 <Terkhen> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/637/ 12:02:54 <norbert79> Nice 12:03:05 <Terkhen> it's missing the correct colour tags of course 12:03:23 <norbert79> need would be marked with yellow, and when satisfied with green 12:03:28 <norbert79> imho 12:03:40 <norbert79> red would look make your eyes hurt... or yellow and black 12:03:41 <planetmaker> what can I say :-) I hardly argue against my own suggestions ;-) 12:04:02 <Terkhen> I'd prefer to avoid colours 12:04:03 <planetmaker> colour can be added any time 12:04:11 <planetmaker> well, some colour makes sense 12:04:15 <Terkhen> they are not clear, and the window would need a tooltip then 12:04:27 <planetmaker> currently the season info is a different colour. But that's not needed 12:04:34 <norbert79> yellow and black would be nice though, like when you turn on a lamp, and turn it off 12:04:34 <Terkhen> if the window needs a tooltip, you would need to change it for NewGRFs 12:04:41 <planetmaker> but I'd like the cargo to be of different colour 12:04:51 <planetmaker> should the colour code then go into that string here? 12:04:54 <Terkhen> cargos orange, txt black 12:05:04 <norbert79> yes 12:05:14 <Terkhen> as it was already 12:05:16 <planetmaker> Terkhen, then the {ORANGE} is wrong 12:05:23 <Terkhen> yes, I said that the tags are wrong :) 12:05:24 <Terkhen> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/638/ 12:05:29 <planetmaker> oh, sorry, missed that 12:05:31 <norbert79> no, I mean text black, cargo needed yellow, when satisfied turning it to black 12:05:53 <planetmaker> that's a good colouring scheme, yes 12:06:03 <Terkhen> norbert79: then you need a text explaining that colour scheme, probably in a tooltip 12:06:05 <planetmaker> removing the colour highlight 12:06:21 <planetmaker> Terkhen, no... the text, as is, needs not be changed for that 12:06:23 <Terkhen> after that, once that OpenTTD allows to change the town growth scheme to "anything", you will need to change the tooltipt oo 12:06:44 <Terkhen> how will I know that cargo needed is yellow and satisfied is black? 12:07:04 <planetmaker> well, what's wrong with adding that to the tooltip 12:07:12 <planetmaker> and making the tooltip newgrf-exposed? 12:07:16 <norbert79> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/639/ - my proposal 12:07:31 <planetmaker> or part of it 12:07:49 <Terkhen> norbert79: http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png 12:07:55 <Terkhen> the rest of the "normal" text in the window is black 12:07:58 <Terkhen> in most windows actually 12:08:13 <norbert79> Sure, that's why the title would be white 12:08:21 <norbert79> but wanted to emphasize a bit 12:08:28 <norbert79> so I am not misunderstood 12:08:55 <planetmaker> Terkhen, changing colour from yellow to black for delivered cargos also allows to see which of the cargos triggered the "delivered" 12:09:31 <Terkhen> it also needs storing that information in the town (currently you only store the town effect amount received) 12:09:43 <Terkhen> adding that information to savegames and adding the tooltip 12:10:10 <planetmaker> hm, I thought it is stored anyway which cargo has been deliverd? 12:10:16 <planetmaker> or only which towneffect fulfilled? 12:10:22 <Terkhen> town effect fulfilled 12:10:28 <planetmaker> I see. 12:10:43 <planetmaker> then I withdraw that suggestion until the cargos are available anyway 12:10:51 <Terkhen> that info will probably be needed for town growth NewGRFs, yes 12:11:07 <Terkhen> but adding it now just for clarity is IMO not a priority 12:11:19 <planetmaker> I'm sure it's an info which players *will* want. I'd want it 12:11:25 <planetmaker> yes, agreed 12:11:43 <planetmaker> I thought you had that info already 12:11:58 <planetmaker> then just change the cargo colour from yellow to black when the effect is fulfilled 12:12:02 <Terkhen> I want that too, but adding 32 int32 for each town just for that is not good :P 12:12:04 <planetmaker> i.e. remove the highlight 12:12:18 <Terkhen> IMO adding (delivered) is clearer 12:12:24 <planetmaker> Terkhen, both. 12:12:32 <planetmaker> I don't argue against the 'delivered'. I want that 12:12:50 <planetmaker> But colour is faster visible than reading text 12:13:05 <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- all "information" in the window is orange, why should it change to black? the important part of the info will not be highlighted then 12:13:09 <planetmaker> I get the info w/o reading a single letter when colour changes 12:13:46 <planetmaker> The important part will still be highlighted: the missing cargo 12:14:09 <Terkhen> which missing cargo? 12:14:22 <norbert79> planetmaker: I would still highlight the line of "Cargo needed for growth", since we want to tell the player: Hey, I need this 12:14:24 <appe> i see what u did thar 12:14:31 <appe> *trollface* 12:14:31 <norbert79> planetmaker: Making it white 12:14:49 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I want the yellow text only as long as the cargo is still required that month 12:14:55 <Terkhen> why should this information be "special"? all lists of information in OpenTTD follow the same black/orange pattern 12:14:57 <planetmaker> if it is not required anymore, then black 12:15:17 <planetmaker> yes. They still do. But highlight the important thing: the required part 12:15:25 <planetmaker> I'm not that much interested in what I have delivered 12:15:34 <norbert79> or anyone else 12:15:50 <Terkhen> I'm not interested in the design year for vehicles either, but it also appears orange for consistency 12:15:51 <norbert79> it matters what I have to/can deliver 12:15:54 <planetmaker> it also wouldn't break any pattern 12:16:24 <Terkhen> check any window with a list of fields :P 12:16:53 <Terkhen> they all follow the black/orange pattern (in some cases black/light blue) 12:17:01 <norbert79> even town info? 12:17:06 <planetmaker> yes 12:17:07 <norbert79> all data 12:17:10 <norbert79> hmm 12:17:12 <Terkhen> yes 12:17:31 <norbert79> well, I would still prefer getting the cargos highlighted which I need to deliver 12:17:34 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I know that. But *all* those lists are just info on something which never changes 12:17:37 <norbert79> and make it black when done 12:17:48 <planetmaker> this is a tri-state thing 12:18:04 <Terkhen> every other list displays information with text 12:18:06 <planetmaker> I don't think it's right to say it breaks consistency 12:18:17 <Terkhen> I don't see why we need to change it for this field 12:18:31 <planetmaker> Terkhen, for a better user experience, for a better UI 12:18:33 <norbert79> Terkhen: Which can be overlooked... If you don't highlight needed cargo, why listing delivered cargo at all? 12:18:38 <Terkhen> maybe because changing colours of stuff just confuses me usually 12:18:44 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:5934:dc40:b5c:9f31] has joined #openttd 12:18:48 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:18:53 <planetmaker> a quick glance with everything highlighted will always give me the wrong impression 12:19:24 <planetmaker> and as too many colours are not good, the good solution here is: "highlight the important, still needed stuff" 12:19:38 <planetmaker> I'm sure you could ask an UI expert and he'd agree with me ;-) 12:19:42 <Terkhen> why is knowing that you delivered cargo not important? 12:19:57 <planetmaker> because I want the town to grow? 12:20:05 <norbert79> exactly 12:20:07 <planetmaker> and it's not like that info becomes inaccessible 12:20:13 <planetmaker> it's just not highlighted 12:20:21 <Terkhen> so, if you deliver one of the cargos, you make them harder to read on purpose 12:20:34 <planetmaker> is black harder to read? 12:20:39 <norbert79> no, marking it yellow or white wouldn't make it to be read harder... 12:20:41 <Terkhen> it's not highlighted 12:20:55 <norbert79> even though even white letters have basic shadow 12:20:58 <Terkhen> therefore it's more complicated to tell the information from the title 12:21:06 <norbert79> it's perfect on the current coloured window 12:21:06 <planetmaker> eh? 12:21:18 <norbert79> Terkhen: Why don't you try it first? 12:21:25 <norbert79> Terkhen: Why not give it a try? 12:21:26 <Terkhen> I've already tried it 12:21:36 <norbert79> I only see the same window over and over again 12:21:40 <planetmaker> it's a big bonus on the UI :-) 12:21:49 <norbert79> you didn't paste any screenshots based on our proposal 12:21:53 <Terkhen> because uploading screenshots is a PITA 12:22:09 <norbert79> even though you don't like it, we might like it :) 12:22:15 <planetmaker> a small 'delivered' added somewhere is easily overlooked, the important information stuffed away in the last place (literally) 12:22:32 <Terkhen> a black line is overlooked, because every other line in the game has the information highlighted in a different colour 12:22:45 <planetmaker> which is ok. The black lines have been taken care of 12:23:10 <Terkhen> so it is not important to know that you delivered cargo to the town? 12:23:22 <planetmaker> it's less important than what I miss 12:23:28 <norbert79> No, we are just asying it's important to see, what's important, and the rest can stay black 12:23:31 <planetmaker> as the missing thing blocks my progress 12:23:36 <Terkhen> so why is that information less important than Max Reliability or Introduction Date? 12:23:43 <Terkhen> I want to display them black too, I don't need them 12:23:46 <planetmaker> you now compare apples and pears 12:24:01 <Terkhen> well, consistency is about comparing apples and pears :P 12:24:21 <planetmaker> as I explained: they are properties which have no state which changes 12:24:38 <planetmaker> displaying the reliability as colour code might make sense for < 30% or so. In red 12:24:53 <Terkhen> yes 12:25:01 <norbert79> Terkhen: Just try it for once please, and make a screenshot... Then compare the before and after... I am sure you will understand how well it will help people focusing on town needs, rather just on constructing 12:25:27 <Terkhen> norbert79: I'll take a screenshot just so you believe me 12:25:29 <Terkhen> I already tried it 12:25:35 <norbert79> thank you... 12:25:40 <planetmaker> Terkhen, when playing the game we try to solve problems 12:25:47 <norbert79> (Btw I use the built in fonttypes, no own ones) 12:25:50 <planetmaker> and the problem one can have with a town is 12:25:53 <Terkhen> planetmaker: the red example is wrong in this case 12:25:53 <planetmaker> - growth 12:25:57 <Terkhen> red gives you additional info 12:25:57 <planetmaker> - authority rating 12:26:02 <Terkhen> black only makes things harder to read 12:26:04 <norbert79> planetmaker: Which is always a huge problem for me 12:26:08 <Terkhen> because it is the same colour used for titles 12:26:19 <Terkhen> making something harder to read is not a good help 12:26:30 <planetmaker> Terkhen, then choose a 3rd colour 12:26:34 <norbert79> green 12:26:35 <planetmaker> But distinguish it 12:26:37 <planetmaker> green 12:26:48 <Terkhen> that's what I said when you suggested black... 12:27:00 <norbert79> Green for highlighting :) 12:27:02 <Terkhen> black + black is harder to read 12:27:04 <norbert79> not for completed 12:27:04 <planetmaker> sorry, I only read "I don't want colour" :-) 12:27:20 <norbert79> Terkhen: Still this is what I saw on your screenshots :)) 12:27:22 <Terkhen> I want consistency 12:27:24 <planetmaker> then I've been arguing like Don Quichote 12:27:34 <norbert79> Terkhen: And people gameplay :) 12:27:38 <planetmaker> Terkhen, and I want a quick and easy to use GUI 12:27:55 <planetmaker> and not read every letter to see what I want to know 12:28:00 <Terkhen> we can have both :P 12:28:05 <Terkhen> my point is: 12:28:11 <planetmaker> Yes, if we can have three colours, all the better 12:28:12 <Terkhen> black + black -> I can't tell the title from the info 12:28:24 <Terkhen> so if I don't know for sure what's there, I need to read 12:28:30 <norbert79> no 12:28:31 <planetmaker> Using only two colours was a concession to you actually ;-) 12:28:33 <norbert79> this is how YOU do 12:28:41 <norbert79> but people just ignore such 12:28:54 <norbert79> and think on fast rounds 12:28:59 <Terkhen> what? 12:29:01 <norbert79> or where the network is way spread 12:29:07 <planetmaker> Terkhen, so: yellow for "needs delivery". green for "has been delivered" 12:29:09 <norbert79> people want information fast and quick 12:29:19 <Terkhen> norbert79: you misunderstood me 12:29:19 <norbert79> I would still make "delivered black" 12:29:23 <Terkhen> I want my information quick 12:29:47 <planetmaker> then you need to use different colours for text, needed cargo and delivered cargo 12:29:52 <planetmaker> three different ones 12:29:54 <norbert79> sure, but I also want only the information which helps me moving further... 12:30:20 <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- that's why I don't want to read this blob of text because I can't tell the titles from the actual information 12:30:22 <planetmaker> colour is the quickest information way you can provide to a user 12:30:34 <Terkhen> exactly, that's why using black + black is a bad idea 12:30:37 <Terkhen> you remove information 12:30:47 <norbert79> Terkhen: No, way away from what I wanted to see.. wait... 12:30:52 <norbert79> Terkhen: need to GIMP it 12:31:00 <planetmaker> Terkhen, yes. We don't need to argue about black anymore. That's done 12:31:08 <Terkhen> he's arguing about black :P 12:31:13 <planetmaker> My preferred solution is 3 colours 12:31:17 <Terkhen> planetmaker: then we are back to the tooltip discussion 12:31:26 <planetmaker> Tooltip is fine 12:31:35 <Terkhen> I don't mind adding that tooltip, as long as we are not doing the per-cargo colours 12:31:52 <Terkhen> if all cargos are displayed in the same colours, then I don't mind it at all 12:32:04 <planetmaker> no. Just 3. "needed cargos", "delivered cargos" and the rest of the text 12:32:13 <planetmaker> all cargos of a single type 12:33:30 <planetmaker> thus the cargo colour of one line is consistently the same (as we can't distinguish cargos (yet)) 12:34:07 <Terkhen> compiling... 12:34:39 <planetmaker> the colour for the cargo in different lines might of course differ 12:37:48 <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- the colour I chose is horrible, but something like this 12:38:26 <norbert79> Terkhen: http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/930/town.png 12:38:53 <norbert79> Still consistent 12:38:59 <norbert79> but main points are highlighted 12:39:00 *** Eddi|nichZuHause [~EddinichZ@46.115.26.123] has joined #openttd 12:39:13 <Terkhen> norbert79: I know you meant black only for delivered, the previous screenshot was a result of my hack 12:39:16 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-20-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 12:39:18 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 12:39:29 <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, I know, but wanted to share what I had in my mind 12:39:42 <Terkhen> it is not consistent: I need to read the line itself to see where the title (One of) ends and the information (the list of cargos) start 12:39:49 <Elukka> unrelated gratuitous train 12:39:49 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/br50.jpg 12:40:02 <Terkhen> with the usual way of displaying information, I can ignore the title (which I already know) and jump to the information 12:40:11 <norbert79> Terkhen: Don't agree, main necessary cargos are listed, I instantly know what I need to deliver 12:40:26 <norbert79> Terkhen: Since only "to be delivered" are highlighted 12:40:39 <norbert79> Elukka: Wonderful looking 12:40:47 <Terkhen> why aren't cargos already delivered important? 12:41:04 <norbert79> because the focus is on growth, not history 12:41:08 <Elukka> got it in the mail yesterday 12:41:13 <norbert79> but still good to know 12:41:44 <Terkhen> norbert79: do you agree that black 12:41:49 <Terkhen> + black is more complicated to read? 12:42:13 <Terkhen> that's the whole point of this discussion, not the relative importance of different fields 12:42:18 <Terkhen> at least for me 12:42:49 <norbert79> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png - this only makes my eye hurt, because I only want to know what to deliver... 12:43:03 <norbert79> Make it grey then 12:43:10 <norbert79> if black-black is a problem 12:43:16 <Terkhen> as I said when I pasted the screenshot, the colour chosen is horrible 12:43:20 <Terkhen> I just picked a random one 12:43:26 <Terkhen> green would be fine I guess 12:43:32 <Terkhen> err, grey, sorry 12:43:34 <norbert79> no, green has more focus, than yellow 12:43:37 <norbert79> ok :) 12:43:40 <norbert79> grey is better 12:43:49 <norbert79> lets try and see 12:43:59 <Terkhen> not today though, I had enough testing already 12:44:01 <Terkhen> bbl 12:44:04 <norbert79> sure 12:50:05 <Eddi|nichZuHause> <@Terkhen> [...]the colour chosen is horrible <- said the colourblind guy? :) 12:57:31 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:59:13 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 12:59:37 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 13:05:04 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-189-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 13:08:17 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-20-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 13:09:26 <Terkhen> Eddi|nichZuHause: that does not mean that I see on black and white... 13:10:20 <norbert79> greyscale that is 13:10:23 <norbert79> :) 13:10:24 <norbert79> I guess 13:10:53 <norbert79> it's like watching an old television with no colours, right? 13:11:33 <norbert79> ok, this was a dumb question, since how he should know different... ok, void it :) 13:12:24 <planetmaker> there is _many_ shades of colour vision and different facettes of what commonly is called "colour blind" 13:12:49 <Terkhen> I can see all colours 13:12:50 <planetmaker> I never know which colours my boss sees and which not ;-) I'm constantly surprised one way or the other 13:13:00 <Terkhen> I just confuse red and green when they are in dark tones 13:13:02 <norbert79> so it's more like mixing up colours 13:13:04 <planetmaker> or rather s/see/distinguish/ 13:13:06 <Terkhen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness#Red.E2.80.93green_color_blindness 13:13:10 <Terkhen> read up if you are interested 13:13:17 <norbert79> Terkhen: Cheers 13:13:18 <Terkhen> real color blindness is quite rare 13:13:23 <planetmaker> yes 13:13:43 <norbert79> Terkhen: I am always a bit confused by the english term, in Hungarian we differentiate mixing colours and not seeing colours at all 13:13:47 <V453000> well at least you can be sure you are a male :P 13:14:01 <planetmaker> I just used that word in lack of a better one to describe reduced colour perception 13:14:12 <Terkhen> we just use daltonism 13:14:23 <planetmaker> never heart that word, tbh :-) 13:14:43 <norbert79> Terkhen: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Ishihara_compare_1.jpg - Which one is closer to your state, if you could point it out for me 13:14:56 <Terkhen> planetmaker: it's because that's what dalton had 13:15:47 <Terkhen> norbert79: I can see the number in all four images 13:16:03 <Terkhen> so... no clue 13:16:06 <norbert79> Terkhen: Weird, I cannot on the Protanope one, unless I focus enough :) 13:16:16 <Terkhen> besides, in theory I shouldn't be able to tell 13:16:18 <planetmaker> completely w/o context: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/640/ <-- the beauty of awk :-) 13:16:30 <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, but still... You can blame one for asking :) 13:16:34 <norbert79> can't 13:16:39 <Terkhen> norbert79: I'm used to focus a lot, I don't need to put effort on it 13:16:42 <planetmaker> took me probably to write as long as hand-converting. But was more fun ;-) 13:17:20 <Terkhen> planetmaker: looks crazy 13:17:20 <norbert79> planetmaker: Lol, well, nice solution though 13:17:30 <norbert79> planetmaker: but some sed and awk could have helped :) 13:17:33 <planetmaker> do you know the problem, norbert79 ? ;-) 13:17:53 <norbert79> planetmaker: Just about understanding it :) 13:18:05 <planetmaker> cat ../../nfo/extra/extra-chars.pnfo | ~/scripts/glyph2nml > extra-chars.pnml 13:18:37 <norbert79> Ah, now I get it, cheers 13:18:56 <norbert79> basically listing using specific parameters 13:19:15 <planetmaker> basically converting some valid nfo to valid nml ;-) 13:19:20 <planetmaker> for a very specific case, though 13:20:00 <norbert79> well, the file writing wasn't included, but only through your command line :P :) I was looking at the code :) 13:23:04 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/641/ <-- effect on the files 13:24:01 <norbert79> Well done, looks nice 13:24:25 <planetmaker> I guess I'll emply awk more often... I learnt quite a bit and it makes multi-line replacement etc quite easy as it seems 13:34:11 <Belugas> hello 13:35:54 <Korenn> Terkhen: I used {YELLOW} in my patch 13:36:05 <Korenn> subtle difference, but enough to jump out 13:36:46 <Terkhen> Korenn: ok, I'll try it too :) 13:41:19 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 13:42:25 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D644.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 13:42:50 *** lugo [bc6f57fe@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:49:40 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.170.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:58:28 <norbert79> Hi Belugas... You always enter, when we are already exhausted :) 13:59:14 <peter1138> fnar 14:22:21 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:33:37 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-64.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:34:33 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:36 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice4n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving for now. Bye everyone!] 14:57:01 * dihedral yawns 15:05:13 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A734.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:27 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-123-161.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 15:17:55 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-123-161.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 15:19:23 *** lugo [bc6f57fe@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 15:25:07 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:31:25 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 15:34:04 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 15:38:11 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-190-56.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 15:41:46 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 16:01:38 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@vpn97.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 16:03:35 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:06:29 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:14:16 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:15:36 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-011-134.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:38:37 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A734.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:45:38 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f6c83.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:52:05 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-189-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:56:58 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:57:57 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@vpn97.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:10:47 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-78-226.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 17:16:30 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-123-161.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:19:00 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 17:26:45 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-168-118.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 17:31:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@genkt-051-055.t-mobile.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:34:45 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest13329 17:34:45 *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@178.111.212.244] has joined #openttd 17:34:46 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth 17:35:59 * andythenorth is on an actual train 17:36:13 <__ln__> newgrf? 17:37:30 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest13330 17:37:30 *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@31.97.104.101] has joined #openttd 17:37:30 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth 17:39:50 *** Guest13329 [~Andy@genkt-051-055.t-mobile.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:44:02 *** Guest13330 [~Andy@178.111.212.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:45:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r23026 /trunk/src/lang/ (esperanto.txt latvian.txt): 17:45:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 4 changes by Ailanto 17:45:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 53 changes by Parastais 17:48:43 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 17:50:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@31.97.104.101] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:00 *** andythenorth [~Andy@31.97.104.101] has joined #openttd 17:57:59 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:10:10 * andythenorth wants to try the french set 18:10:32 * andythenorth is in Swindon, but fortunately will soon be leaving 18:11:37 <Elukka> the city of roundabouts everywhere 18:11:40 <Elukka> it's like they just decided 18:11:44 <Elukka> more roundabouts 18:11:59 <Elukka> and at the center they put a roundabout that's five roundabouts combined and in every direction you may go there will be more rounadabouts 18:12:53 <andythenorth> it's very nice if you like roundabouts 18:21:47 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I am wondering about refactoring FIRS code 18:21:55 <andythenorth> it might be a good time to do that soon 18:21:56 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 18:21:56 <Terkhen> again? :P 18:22:12 * planetmaker wonders what needs (again) refactoring 18:22:15 <andythenorth> refactoring names of constants etc 18:22:24 <andythenorth> refactoring == code tidy in this context 18:22:26 <planetmaker> I see little need 18:22:47 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 18:22:53 <andythenorth> wondered if you'd say that :) 18:23:01 <planetmaker> but I also don't know what exactly you mean 18:24:10 <andythenorth> naming spritesets etc 18:24:30 <andythenorth> consistency in which macros are used 18:24:33 <andythenorth> that kind of thing 18:25:55 <planetmaker> it certainly can use a bit tidy up still in that respect. 18:25:57 <andythenorth> time will tell if I actually get motivated do it 18:26:31 <andythenorth> it's the right thing to do though 18:27:28 <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- does it look good with yellow? 18:27:44 <andythenorth> looks ok 18:28:03 <Yexo> it looks the wrong way around 18:28:11 <Yexo> the yellow stands out more than the orange 18:28:22 <Yexo> so it draws attention to the cargo which you don't need to provide 18:28:28 <Yexo> instead of drawing attention to the cargoes you're missing 18:28:29 <andythenorth> what's the significance of each line? 18:28:47 <andythenorth> anyway, this 'one of' thing is nonsense :P 18:28:51 <planetmaker> I agree with yexo 18:28:53 <Terkhen> Yexo: I agree, let's see with gray 18:29:03 <planetmaker> Use a light gray 18:29:12 <Terkhen> andythenorth: "you need to deliver a unit of either of the following cargos for town growth" 18:29:39 <Yexo> andythenorth: in a game without newgrfs the first line would only contain "food" and the second line only "water" 18:29:39 <andythenorth> "it should be stockpiling, but without limits, but you shouldn't be able to deliver too much, and you should get rewarded for delivering lots, but you shouldn't be able to just deliver all the cargo once forever" 18:29:39 <andythenorth> :P 18:29:55 <Terkhen> I don't think that a different colour is necessary, but most people think that if you already delivered what you needed it should stand out :P 18:30:15 <Terkhen> it only fixes how cargos with different town effects are displayed 18:30:23 <Terkhen> so it does not fix town growth at all 18:30:26 <Yexo> Terkhen: what about swapping the yellow and orange? 18:30:35 <Yexo> yellow if not delivered, orange if delivered 18:30:37 <Terkhen> swapping would be fine by me 18:30:48 <Yexo> that was the only problem I had with the colors 18:30:53 <Terkhen> yellow seems to mean "something is wrong, fix it" 18:30:56 <Terkhen> and orange does not stand 18:31:03 <Terkhen> *out 18:31:08 <Terkhen> so it's better to use yellow for not delivered 18:31:10 <Yexo> exactly 18:31:37 <andythenorth> 'delivered' does not need to stand out. 18:31:40 <andythenorth> it's not information 18:31:47 <andythenorth> information is 'not delivered' 18:32:12 <Terkhen> so yellow for not delivered and orange for delivered 18:32:20 <Terkhen> exactly the contrary of what's in the screenshot 18:33:04 <andythenorth> :) 18:33:37 <Terkhen> bbl 18:35:57 <andythenorth> http://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/b-eye/choosing_colors.pdf 18:38:50 <Terkhen> that could work for me if I trusted my own eyes to choose colours that everyone else will like too 18:39:38 <Rubidium> I'd use transparent blue ;) 18:39:43 <andythenorth> I'd stick to what the game already uses 18:39:43 <andythenorth> orange, white, yellow etc 18:40:04 <andythenorth> shame there's no <blink> tag :P 18:40:14 <andythenorth> we should patch text drawing to add blink 18:40:26 <andythenorth> then we could have an advanced setting for 'blink rate' :P 18:40:34 <andythenorth> oh what joy 18:43:29 <Yexo> andythenorth: you could try the water colors for text? 18:43:42 <andythenorth> he 18:43:51 <andythenorth> or the level crossing colour 18:45:08 * andythenorth has had enough internets for today 18:45:11 <andythenorth> bye :) 18:45:21 *** andythenorth [~Andy@31.97.104.101] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:48:17 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-168-118.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:56:44 <Eddi|nichZuHause> what's wrong with the phrase "Also so eine abgrundtief dÀmliche Argumentation..."? 18:57:09 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-159-155.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 18:57:19 <planetmaker> Eddi|nichZuHause: it's missing a "," 18:57:55 <planetmaker> I'm not sure about the capitalization of "abgrundtief". But probably correct 18:57:59 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i just got a "friendly warning" that such expressions are not accepted in the forum... 18:58:05 <planetmaker> I'm sure I perfectly answered past your real question ;-) 18:59:03 <Eddi|nichZuHause> by a mod that happens to coincide with the person i replied to 18:59:14 <appe> http://gyazo.com/b5f9e63512c6414d365b1c81eabaa676.png <- how come i cant build the industry here? 18:59:35 <planetmaker> He. That's... an interesting mix of responsibility then 19:01:40 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i replied that i don't quite understand what he means... neither did i personally insult anybody, nor did i use curse words 19:03:46 <Eddi|nichZuHause> btw.: "tief", and also the combination "abgrundtief" are adjectives, and as such are written lower case 19:04:18 <Eddi|nichZuHause> not sure where you want to put a comma 19:05:28 <planetmaker> Also, ... 19:08:03 <Eddi|nichZuHause> that puts the emphasis on a different place than i intended 19:08:15 <appe> what on earth 19:08:19 <appe> this grf confuses me 19:09:21 <Eddi|nichZuHause> too close to desert? 19:10:31 <Eddi|nichZuHause> haven't played with ECS in years... and tropic neither 19:11:20 <appe> can i create more green areas myself? 19:11:43 <Eddi|nichZuHause> only in scenario editor 19:11:49 <appe> i see 19:23:21 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 19:25:30 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i'm bored and want to go home... 19:25:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r23027 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h strings.cpp): -Fix: in some cases NewGRF string arguments were popped twice from the newgrf textstack 19:26:01 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:28:48 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-37-239.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 19:31:32 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-78-226.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:34:36 <Eddi|nichZuHause> "Guess who was hacked today" - http://www.sueddeutsche.de/digital/datendiebstahl-bei-sony-hacker-knacken-kundenkonten-1.1160130 :p 19:38:08 <planetmaker> :-P 19:47:14 <Eddi|nichZuHause> is there some generic version-agnostic way to get the location of excel.exe? 19:48:20 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:51:15 <frosch123> try "which ooffice" 19:51:29 <Eddi|nichZuHause> hehe :) 19:51:45 <Eddi|nichZuHause> but isn't it loffice nowadays? 19:52:31 <frosch123> might be, it was soffice before 19:52:40 <Eddi|nichZuHause> well, it'd probably suffice if i could tell python "open this .xls file with the standard associated program" 19:52:42 <valhallasw> Eddi|nichZuHause: cmd /k excel? 19:52:50 <SmatZ> Eddi|nichZuHause: again? ... 19:53:18 <blathijs> It's "libreoffice" on linux 19:53:19 <Eddi|nichZuHause> SmatZ: last time i settled for hardcoding the full path 19:53:21 <SmatZ> and yes, you are right, it's lo* now :) 19:53:54 <valhallasw> Eddi|nichZuHause: do you need to communicate with excel? 19:54:06 <SmatZ> [21:53:23] <SmatZ> Eddi|nichZuHause: again? ... <== I meant that sony hacker 19:54:07 <Eddi|nichZuHause> valhallasw: no, just open the file 19:54:15 <frosch123> i guess it is unlikely to become foffice :p 19:54:16 <Eddi|nichZuHause> SmatZ: ah... 19:54:19 <valhallasw> if not- try os.shell("start <filename>"), or popen("cmd /c start <filename>") 19:54:23 <SmatZ> Eddi|nichZuHause: start "file" 19:54:44 <SmatZ> frosch123: hehe :) 19:54:47 <Eddi|nichZuHause> aha. let me try that 19:55:18 <valhallasw> except it's not called .shell 19:55:31 <valhallasw> but os.system 19:58:55 <Eddi|nichZuHause> the cmd /c thing seems to work 20:03:02 <Eddi|nichZuHause> so... why does the python installer do not put python into the path? 20:03:58 <planetmaker> oh, a SmatZ :-) 20:04:00 <Rubidium> did you reboot after installing? 20:04:56 <Terkhen> if it put python into the path, closing the console and opening another should be enough 20:07:57 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.237.235.128] has joined #openttd 20:08:49 <Wolf01> hello 20:09:26 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:13:00 <Rubidium> Terkhen: I've seen it make a difference; some installers run some post install during the next boot 20:13:27 <Terkhen> hmm... that doesn't sound very helpful 20:15:02 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-20-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 20:15:05 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 20:15:48 <Eddi|nichZuHause> no, i did not reboot... 20:23:34 <SmatZ> hello planetmaker :-) 20:29:46 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-189-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 20:35:43 <Eddi|nichZuHause> what's the win7 way for listing known filetypes and their associated program? 20:36:44 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:55 <planetmaker> g'night 20:38:56 <Yexo> control panel -> programs -> default programs -> set associations 20:43:38 <Belugas> Don't give up 20:43:44 <Belugas> cause you have friends 20:49:53 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 20:58:08 <Eddi|nichZuHause> bÀh... i 20:58:12 <Eddi|nichZuHause> 'm really bored 20:58:18 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i'm out of here... 20:58:58 <Eddi|nichZuHause> where's the next fuel station? 21:00:20 <Terkhen> Next to a road 21:02:38 <z-MaTRiX> "Take your chance to use this open window..." 21:05:49 <Eddi|nichZuHause> ECoherenceWarning 21:06:14 <Eddi|nichZuHause> anyway... bye 21:06:16 *** Eddi|nichZuHause [~EddinichZ@46.115.26.123] has quit [] 21:19:34 <Wolf01> 'night 21:19:38 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.237.235.128] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:22:28 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-64.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22:53 <Terkhen> good night 21:26:25 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:28:01 *** erik1984 [~erik1984@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 21:33:44 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-28-34-159.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 21:43:43 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-38-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 21:46:48 *** erik1984 [~erik1984@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has quit [Quit: Doei!] 21:49:50 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-20-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:02:56 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-38-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 22:05:29 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f6c83.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:19 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:25 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-168-118.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 22:41:45 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:38 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:49:22 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 22:53:35 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:25:28 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... so nothing happened in the past 2:30h 23:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: is there possibly some way i don't get 50 emails in a distance of 5 seconds, when someone mass-deletes files from a ticket? 23:40:12 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-37-239.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:45:04 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.84.107] has joined #openttd 23:47:37 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.30.129.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:55:58 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-190-56.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]