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00:07:44 *** wagner [bb3412e6@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 00:08:01 <wagner> what ip your server? 00:09:43 *** jmlane [~18ded19f@webuser.thegrebs.com] has joined #openttd 00:09:45 *** wagner [bb3412e6@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [] 00:10:08 * drac_boy wonders what that was 00:12:15 <jmlane> Hello. Quick signals noob question: any way to signal a single railway to allow two-way traffic and simultaneousily use regularly spaced signals to allow more than one train going the same direction along that segment of single rail? 00:13:48 <drac_boy> don't think you can get both at same time...you'll have to use crossover each few tiles or just go with one-way 00:15:57 <jmlane> Thanks drac_boy. I was starting to suspect it wasn't possible. I haven't played TTD much before, so I'm exploring different rail patterns and signal combinations. 00:17:26 <michi_cc> jmlane: It is possible to have two trains on one line, but not more, see http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_path_signal_layouts#Prioritised_single_track_layout 00:18:24 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 00:19:51 <drac_boy> jmlane one of the problem is that real dispatchers can block the whole line for one-way working one hour then flip it other way next hour .. but the game has no idea of whatever a "dispatcher" is so all signals are more or less just dumb ones 00:19:59 <drac_boy> except for the programmable signals to a certain degree :) 00:20:14 <drac_boy> thats just my own thought on it tho 00:21:56 <michi_cc> Use timetables to simulate the dispatcher :) 00:22:18 <drac_boy> theres that too yeah :p 00:22:24 <jmlane> michi_cc: Thanks. That is helpful. What I want to do is not possible based on my understanding of the signals in game. 00:22:40 * drac_boy usually has a lot of single-line and occassional one-way double tracks tho 00:23:17 <drac_boy> so I just need a lot of half-operator/half-flagman if I was running it for real tho :p 00:23:34 <jmlane> drac_boy: Ah, right. I was wondering if the timetable functionality would be sufficient to simulate dispatching on certain lines. I haven't tried it nor looked at that part of the manual yet. 00:24:06 <drac_boy> they may not exactly like my one or two 'primary' freight/passenger stations I build at times tho...would be a lot of flaggings to do every single day :) 00:25:04 * drac_boy wonders if I could hire michi_cc 00:25:06 <drac_boy> heh heh 00:25:59 <michi_cc> jmlane: Yes, there's no way to have more than two trains on a section of single-track railway with signals alone. The closest approximation would be alternating single-track pieces with passing loops. Timetables would work, too, but be prepared f or a lot of pain :) 00:26:13 <michi_cc> drac_boy: If you pay enough 00:26:18 <drac_boy> :) 00:27:20 <drac_boy> michi_cc the reason that I thought most of them would be operator/flagman because at the times trains aren't working they can just deal with the freight sheets sitting by the ticket window :) 00:27:35 <drac_boy> but who knows what kind of railroad I might had managed for real tho 00:29:40 <drac_boy> michi_cc I don't know what any related rail regulations might had been like in other countries but in the 1940-1960s some of the short railroads in usa could be managed with no specific work positions, the few people there just simply agreed to whoever would handle whatever everyday 00:31:24 <drac_boy> could make for interesting things when someone calls in ill...eg fireman not showing up? just tell the shop mechanic to fire the train 00:36:14 *** jnxa [~xvd@seven.medozas.de] has joined #openttd 00:36:36 <jnxa> Heh. A train crashes when it actually sinks in seawater.. 00:37:11 <drac_boy> what else did you think would happen jnxa? :p 00:37:21 <drac_boy> beside water != run 00:38:34 <jnxa> well, that it would drown rather than crash :) 00:38:54 <drac_boy> drown means its useless means its as good as broken for good = crash 00:38:59 <drac_boy> :) 00:40:11 <drac_boy> hmm that was a weird long line I typed heh 00:47:15 * drac_boy sends jnxa down a wrong line which leads off into the other direction apparently 00:47:17 <drac_boy> heh heh 00:57:06 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 01:11:19 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086f3c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 01:19:12 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-60-28.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:26:57 *** Sahri [~IceChat77@52494455.cm-4-2b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: 'Till all are one!] 01:28:56 *** jnxa [~xvd@seven.medozas.de] has quit [Quit: rboot] 01:28:58 *** KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.102.249] has joined #openttd 01:38:09 *** jmlane [~18ded19f@webuser.thegrebs.com] has quit [Quit: TheGrebs.com CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 01:54:23 *** goodger [~ben@94-30-43-248.xdsl.murphx.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:05:57 *** Snail__ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 02:07:55 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:08:05 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-120-33.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:29:42 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:30:24 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 02:30:57 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.114.232.185.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:47 *** sortkrudt [~sortkrudt@80.203.24.9] has joined #openttd 02:36:01 <sortkrudt> Hi. Is there any sub-way or tunnel for boats in this game yet? 02:46:27 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:911e:143c:1e42:c32d] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:00:02 *** brambles_ [brambles@79.133.200.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:35 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:32:05 * Rhamphoryncus pokes his head back in 03:32:21 *** Snail__ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Snail__] 03:32:47 <Rhamphoryncus> You could have two-way on one track if you carefully prevented trains from entering it 03:32:59 <Rhamphoryncus> which means a logic train 03:33:38 <Rhamphoryncus> Which requires at least one extra track the whole length ;) 03:35:23 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 03:36:11 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. You could have a logic train at each end *and* one that follows each caravan through to trigger that end 03:36:45 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 03:46:50 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Snail_] 04:22:35 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 04:52:08 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7363E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:52:23 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75778.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:44:59 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 05:47:03 *** Stimrol_ [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:58:46 *** leonardo001 [bed820e7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 05:58:49 <leonardo001> hola 05:58:52 <leonardo001> hi 05:59:31 <leonardo001> hola 05:59:35 <leonardo001> alguien? 05:59:59 <Rubidium> morning 06:00:06 <leonardo001> ? 06:00:21 <leonardo001> hi! cuestion? 06:00:49 <leonardo001> rubidium? 06:01:28 <leonardo001> ahhh...openttd 32bpp? 06:02:22 <Rubidium> what about it? 06:02:41 <leonardo001> no me funcionan los .tar... 06:03:28 <Rubidium> I have no idea what you're trying to ask 06:04:28 <leonardo001> no working ottd 32 bpp... 06:05:31 *** leonardo001 [bed820e7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 06:05:55 *** leonardo001 [bed820e7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 06:06:08 <leonardo001> hi! 06:07:22 *** leonardo001 [bed820e7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [] 06:08:49 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 06:13:53 <planetmaker> there's virutally no working 32bpp NewGRF 06:13:56 <planetmaker> yet 06:14:07 <planetmaker> the old tars won't work 06:14:43 *** sortkrudt [~sortkrudt@80.203.24.9] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:16:31 <planetmaker> oh, he left already 06:24:37 <Nat_aS> wait, did somebody sugest a boat tunnel a while back? 06:24:55 * Nat_aS is against the idea of canal bridges despite them existing in real life. 06:27:51 <planetmaker> canal bridges do exist in OpenTTD for 5(?) years 06:28:50 <Nat_aS> yes 06:28:52 <Nat_aS> and I hate them 06:29:15 <Nat_aS> and now somebody is suggesting canal tunnels. 06:29:19 <planetmaker> @commit 13481 06:29:19 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit by smatz :: r13481 trunk/src/dock_gui.cpp (2008-06-11 21:37:36 UTC) 06:29:20 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: -Codechange: add 'B' keyboard shortcut to build aqueduct (planetmaker) 06:30:01 <planetmaker> yes. It's a valid idea, though I'm not sure about that one. You don't have to use a feature if you don't like it 06:31:09 <planetmaker> Adding that shortcut was my first OpenTTD patch ;-) 06:52:03 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 06:56:59 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:57:02 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:00:58 <Rubidium> canal tunnels are a big nightmare w.r.t. sprite sizes and hiding the sprite at the right moment 07:07:55 <Nat_aS> as they should be! 07:08:11 <Nat_aS> heck, most ships should not even be allowed onto aquaducts 07:08:20 <Nat_aS> and some not even in Cannals 07:10:17 <Alberth> not at aquaducts? 07:10:30 <Nat_aS> because of size 07:10:47 <Nat_aS> Canal bridges IRL are for small barges. 07:10:50 <Nat_aS> not supertankers. 07:10:59 <Alberth> oh, right, as weight is not relevent :) 07:10:59 <planetmaker> then make use of the canal speed fraction and ocean speed fraction for ships to discourage canal travel 07:11:10 <Alberth> *relevant 07:11:27 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host-2-101-143-254.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 07:11:44 <andythenorth> niom 07:11:49 <planetmaker> but you should fish some fish with andythenorth there, Nat_aS ;-) 07:11:50 <planetmaker> hi andythenorth 07:12:02 <Nat_aS> hi andy 07:12:25 <Nat_aS> I was just talking about how cannal bridges are unrealistic because the ones that exist IRL are for barges not oceangoing ships 07:12:35 <Nat_aS> and how cannal tunnels are even more retarded 07:12:45 * andythenorth shrug 07:12:50 <planetmaker> :-D 07:13:02 <andythenorth> noticed that depots are 1tile? 07:13:07 <andythenorth> and that it never rains? 07:13:19 <andythenorth> reality is not our best guide 07:13:58 <Nat_aS> they still look dumb 07:14:03 <andythenorth> when designing, it helps to imagine reality as one n-dimensional matrix 07:14:03 <Nat_aS> I never build cannals 07:14:17 <planetmaker> simply don't use it. No need to get excited that no-one should use it, really :-) 07:14:19 <andythenorth> then apply the equivalent of transforms to that matrix 07:14:29 <andythenorth> resulting in 'game world' 07:14:36 <Nat_aS> if you want to connect two bodies of water, spend a ton of money and use the landscaping tool 07:14:44 <planetmaker> how ugly 07:14:46 <planetmaker> how unrealistic 07:14:52 <andythenorth> yeah 07:15:04 <andythenorth> because a canal isn't created by digging a channel :P 07:15:13 <planetmaker> actually I might even ban such person on my server on grounds of damaging the map excessively 07:15:16 <andythenorth> why do we even have canals? 07:16:03 <planetmaker> or you might find the landscaping too expensive anyway ;-) 07:16:11 <andythenorth> ach 07:16:11 <Nat_aS> we have canals because the game does not support water on higher levels 07:16:17 <Nat_aS> or rather it didn't untill we added rivers 07:16:19 * andythenorth needs to go somewhere with actual...wifi signal 07:16:44 <planetmaker> hiding in the bomb-proof cellar? :-P 07:17:03 <Nat_aS> but seeing as how most places you would want to send a boat are at sea level anyways, it's more realistic to just dig a ditch 07:17:11 <Nat_aS> even if that's expensive 07:17:14 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest1270 07:17:14 *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@host86-150-61-253.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 07:17:15 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth 07:17:23 <Nat_aS> aren't you suposed to be rolling in money after 10 years? 07:17:34 <Nat_aS> (YOu may however make the local authority want to kill you) 07:17:45 <Nat_aS> also, FEEDERS 07:17:51 <planetmaker> Nat_aS: you are. But if terraforming one tile border costs you 50 million? 07:18:07 <Nat_aS> why bother connecting ships to things when you can just make a ship and a truck 07:18:11 <planetmaker> and a single vehicle has an annual revenue of 20k? 07:18:19 <Nat_aS> ships work best with feeders anyways because it regularizes the flow 07:18:33 <Nat_aS> which is important when chaining industries 07:24:24 *** Guest1270 [~Andy@host-2-101-143-254.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:28:24 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest1271 07:28:24 *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@host86-150-61-253.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 07:28:24 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth 07:28:34 *** Guest1271 [~Andy@host86-150-61-253.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:45 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:28:48 <Alberth> so many andys this morning! hi hi 07:30:29 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19E44.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:57:48 * andythenorth has crazy wifi 07:58:48 * andythenorth also has crazy ideas for NewGRF / NewNewGRF 07:59:34 <andythenorth> wrt http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4934 08:00:36 <andythenorth> force vehicles to cache which sprites (set of sprites) they are currently use, and only allow that to changed with cbs 08:01:09 <andythenorth> so basically instead of a graphics branch executed every tick, have a 'set graphics' cb, which has various triggers 08:01:16 *** flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has joined #openttd 08:01:30 <Alberth> add a comment? 08:01:39 <andythenorth> I need to kick around the idea a bit first 08:01:47 <andythenorth> it works for all cases I can think of except: 08:01:48 <andythenorth> - animation 08:01:58 <andythenorth> - the new 'turn corners smoothly' behaviour 08:02:45 * Alberth considers the latter a big hack 08:02:52 <andythenorth> if e.g. animation is handling simply as a trigger on the 'set graphics' cb, we gain nothing, and turn newgrf world upside down pointlessly 08:03:26 <andythenorth> as every vehicle would just end up animated, and still doing calculations on every tick :P 08:03:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: might fail with sprite offsets / adv. action1 08:03:48 <andythenorth> adv. action1? 08:04:08 <planetmaker> register offsets 08:04:12 <andythenorth> hmm 08:04:39 <planetmaker> afaik should works for vehicles, too :-) 08:05:29 <andythenorth> is that described here? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action1 08:05:33 <andythenorth> can't see it :) 08:06:18 <andythenorth> hmm...animation could be handled 08:06:29 <andythenorth> instead of caching one set of action 1 sprites, cache n 08:06:43 <andythenorth> which are cycled through in a specific order, at a specific frame rate 08:06:54 <andythenorth> this would make speed-dependent animation impossible though 08:07:07 <andythenorth> hmm 08:07:56 <andythenorth> but GetImage would then have to loop all the cached sprites to determine a sprite size for current frame? 08:08:05 <andythenorth> maybe not, current frame would be known 08:08:14 *** flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:09:10 * andythenorth wonders if frame rate could be changed on a per-tick basis 08:09:28 <andythenorth> but that would then re-open the can of worms wrt checking 1 bazilion vars 08:09:38 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:10:06 <andythenorth> hmm 08:10:19 <andythenorth> we'd know whether frame rate had changed 08:10:30 <andythenorth> so sprite sizes could be cached 08:10:40 <andythenorth> and cache could be invalidated if frame rate changed 08:11:08 <andythenorth> or we could just ditch animation :P 08:12:08 <andythenorth> if 'turn corners smoothly' is desirable, could that be provided by ottd, rather than a monster set of newgrf checks? 08:12:30 <andythenorth> action 1 flag for 'grf provides intermediate turning sprites' 08:12:36 <andythenorth> or something 08:13:36 <andythenorth> basically my proposal is that graphics become more static and less dynamic 08:13:39 <planetmaker> maybe that's the more sound idea. Though I'd rather go for "provides N sprites per set" where N = 8*n 08:14:02 <planetmaker> hm... maybe not 8*n 08:14:36 * Alberth supports the idea to define more vehicle sprites instead 08:14:41 <andythenorth> I see no gain from current approaches to common graphics problems, e.g. 'show cargo x in vehicle z by checking vars for type of lead vehicle, age of vehicle, cargo class' 08:14:56 <andythenorth> ^ why does that need calculating on *every* tick 08:15:23 <andythenorth> cache it when the vehicle leaves station, depot etc 08:15:27 <Alberth> the problem is deciding you don't need to compute it every tick 08:15:33 * andythenorth decided that 08:15:34 <andythenorth> :) 08:15:45 <planetmaker> :-) 08:15:50 <andythenorth> you don't need to calculate capacity on every tick, so we don't 08:15:52 <andythenorth> nor hp 08:15:55 <andythenorth> nor weight 08:15:55 <planetmaker> well, really, post it in that FS entry 08:16:02 <andythenorth> nor other intrinsic properties 08:16:16 <planetmaker> we don't calculate that every tick 08:16:25 <andythenorth> I'm making the case that 'current graphics' is an intrinsic property of vehicle that only changes occasionally 08:16:26 <planetmaker> callbacks are called... when they're called 08:16:39 <planetmaker> the current spriteset. yes 08:17:20 <planetmaker> I'm not entirely sure how much caching is done already, though. 08:17:30 <andythenorth> me neither :P 08:17:33 <andythenorth> I'm guessing 08:17:59 <andythenorth> we don't see graphic glitches with failure to invalidate caches, so either there is none, or it's very very good 08:18:16 <andythenorth> I should write it up better, dumping in this irc log is not helpful :P 08:18:24 *** smoovi [~smoovi@e178208048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 08:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the graphics must be updated (almost) every time the vehicle moves, because of things like curvature info may change 08:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the graphics are thus only reasonably cached while the game is paused 08:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (only the realsprite is currently cached, so it must be re-evaluated on vehicle turning anyway, even if not using callbacks) 08:28:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrt curvature - if this didn't do complex varaction 2 things, do you think it would be any faster? 08:28:31 <andythenorth> or is it simply the number of vehicles and therefore checks that is significant? 08:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you mean 08:30:19 <andythenorth> hmm 08:31:04 <andythenorth> is the 'large number of calculations' issue caused by: 08:31:08 <andythenorth> - 'newgrf vehicles run complex varaction 2 chains to resolve graphics' 08:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> alone that you call a callback is slow, what's being calculated there doesn't matter that much (vaguely paraphrasing michi_cc) 08:31:15 <andythenorth> or by 'every vehicle must be checked' 08:31:57 <andythenorth> reading the FS, I'm unclear 08:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not quite awake enough yet 08:32:22 <andythenorth> it seems that not resolving sprites for every vehicle would be useful, but TB also implies it's mostly an issue caused by newgrf 08:33:11 * andythenorth tea 08:34:04 <Eddi|zuHause> sure it's "caused" by newgrf, in the sense that if you want to change it now, you have to remove some functionality 08:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you can certainly design it in a way that it isn't needed 08:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but that results in a different set of features, and thus breaks backwards compatibility 08:34:50 <andythenorth> from frosch comments, it seems there could be multiple attacks on the problem 08:35:01 <andythenorth> breaking backwards compatibility I don't care 08:35:07 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-106-21-132.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 08:35:13 <andythenorth> lo Pikka 08:35:24 <Pikka> lo bob 08:35:29 <Pikka> you have trucks? 08:35:33 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but other people developing grfs might 08:35:33 <andythenorth> not so much 08:35:39 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I know :) 08:36:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the specs say all valid GRFs will keep their functionality 08:36:11 <Pikka> trucks trucks trucks trucks trucks 08:36:21 <Pikka> TRUCKS! 08:36:30 <Pikka> when come back bring trucks 08:36:39 <andythenorth> Pikka: no no no no theoretical discussions about newgrf format instead :P 08:36:45 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you introduce a completely new newgrf-version) 08:36:48 <Pikka> oh 08:36:50 <Pikka> well 08:36:52 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has joined #openttd 08:36:53 <Pikka> don't break old grfs 08:36:57 <Pikka> eod 08:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> see :) 08:37:02 <andythenorth> blah 08:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> qed :p 08:37:26 <andythenorth> not so simple 08:37:35 <Pikka> why not? 08:37:48 <andythenorth> what if a newgrf v9 or so provided authors with the option to use more efficient methods? 08:37:59 * andythenorth thinks probably still better to fix ottd :P 08:38:12 <Pikka> more efficient than what? 08:38:33 <andythenorth> more efficient than running a varaction 2 chain on every vehicle every tick, whether it is anywhere near a viewport or not 08:38:43 <andythenorth> underlying this is basically an argument for vehicle-local storage :P 08:39:02 <Pikka> eh 08:39:36 <Pikka> vehicle-local storage is all very well 08:39:36 <andythenorth> maybe andythenorth should go and draw trucks 08:40:20 <Pikka> I don't see how being anywhere near a viewport is an issue though 08:40:29 <andythenorth> no that's completely separate issue indeed 08:40:34 <andythenorth> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4934 08:41:01 <andythenorth> and I have no idea how caching is applied to varaction 2, sprite drawing etc 08:41:08 <andythenorth> so I might be talking out of my arse anyway :P 08:41:25 <Pikka> well 08:41:39 <Pikka> you still have to go through the action 2 chain even if you're not drawing the vehicle, because of callbacks 08:42:14 <andythenorth> my guess is that 'fetch value from storage' might be slightly faster than 'compute loads of stuff from vars' 08:42:14 <Pikka> also, if my machine is processing vehicles differently from your machine because we're looking at different parts of the map, that sounds like desync central :) 08:43:08 <andythenorth> that would be....undesirable ;) 08:43:50 <Pikka> let's make the maximum map size 256*, problem solved ;) 08:44:02 <andythenorth> I suggested 512* 08:44:07 <andythenorth> but that was over-ruled :( 08:44:10 <Pikka> that would do :) 08:44:14 <andythenorth> I also think limit number of vehicles :P 08:44:35 <Pikka> multithreading har har 08:44:53 <andythenorth> my trucks are multiprocessor aware 08:44:59 <andythenorth> and indeed much faster as a result 08:45:04 <Pikka> sentient trucks 08:45:06 <Pikka> we're all doomed 08:45:18 <V453000> :D 08:45:28 <andythenorth> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071717/ 08:45:47 <andythenorth> why can't we have vehicle local storage? performance reasons? 08:46:19 <Pikka> everything's performance reasons 08:46:22 <andythenorth> or because of property-checking loops between neighbouring vehicles? 08:46:34 <Pikka> mostly that no-one can be bothered performing the necessary work ;) 08:46:39 <Pikka> that sounds like fun 08:46:57 <andythenorth> vehicle A checks storage on vehicle B 08:47:05 <andythenorth> vehicle B then changes value 08:47:08 <andythenorth> result: boom! 08:47:24 <Pikka> the "no-you" condition 08:47:35 <andythenorth> pushmepullyou 08:47:49 <Pikka> filthy 08:48:01 <andythenorth> consist storage? 08:48:06 <andythenorth> probably even worse :P 08:48:16 <Pikka> there's no such thing as a consist 08:48:20 <Pikka> only lead vehicles 08:48:41 <andythenorth> lead vehicle storage? 08:48:49 <andythenorth> probably even worse 08:48:53 <Alberth> consists should have been invented ages ago 08:49:26 <andythenorth> consists as templates, or consists as 'lead vehicle + trailing vehicles' ? :P 08:49:46 <Alberth> let's start with the latter, shall we? :) 08:49:47 <andythenorth> storage on consist templates is an even more bonkers idea 08:49:50 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 08:50:24 <andythenorth> storage on consist templates could handle all this livery for groups crap and other such things 08:51:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: why should consists be invented? 08:51:10 <andythenorth> Pikka: trucks need better wheels 08:51:14 <oskari89> Consists should http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43972 help that one :) 08:51:16 <andythenorth> and some cabs :P 08:51:32 <Pikka> I'll draw some trucks soon (tm) 08:51:32 <Alberth> aaarggghhhh!! brain overloaaadd .... must .. ignore .. consists .... templa 08:51:47 <andythenorth> Alberth: imagine the possibilities :) 08:51:59 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:52:01 <Pikka> more 19th century buildings first 08:52:04 <Pikka> and roadtypes 08:52:12 <Pikka> let's do roadtypes 08:52:16 <andythenorth> let's 08:52:23 <Pikka> how far did you get? 08:52:33 <andythenorth> I don't want to discuss that :( 08:52:35 <andythenorth> not far 08:52:45 <andythenorth> also it's been suggested to wait for new map array 08:52:46 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:52:49 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:52:56 <Alberth> good morning! 08:53:00 <andythenorth> hello Alberth 08:53:03 <andythenorth> nice to see you 08:53:05 <Pikka> when does the map array? 08:53:10 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 08:53:14 <andythenorth> yes 08:53:24 <andythenorth> my point exactly 08:53:25 <Pikka> Alberth: new map array! 08:53:34 <Alberth> where? 08:53:40 <Pikka> bugger consists, we need newroads :) 08:53:47 <andythenorth> without the new map array (or map layers), we don't get enough roadtypes to keep Eddi|zuHause happy ;) 08:53:49 <Pikka> where we're going we will need roads 08:54:02 <andythenorth> my solution to combining roadtypes would be clunky tbh 08:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i remember that quote differently :;p 08:54:15 <andythenorth> we'd need types like 'tarmac with trolleybus and tram' 08:54:25 <Alberth> there exist experiments with new map arrays, but I don't know their state 08:54:35 <oskari89> Dynamic train composition could be very nice feature to have, at least i think so, there could be feeder traffic to/from larger trains :) 08:54:41 <Pikka> andythenorth: let's not layer 08:54:47 <Pikka> let's different roadtypes 08:55:07 <andythenorth> crossing becomes an arse iirc 08:55:13 <andythenorth> I did have it all solved in my head though 08:55:20 <andythenorth> the pictures were beautiful :P 08:55:36 <Pikka> didn't I propose allowing a seperate roadtype in each quarter of the tile? ;) 08:56:01 <andythenorth> much was proposed :) 08:56:03 <Alberth> oh, nice colours you could make 08:56:26 <andythenorth> map bits not enough we have 08:56:41 <Pikka> nonsense, there's heaps 08:56:42 <andythenorth> we have silly hysterical raisins to account for, like roadworks counter 08:56:48 <andythenorth> clearly important :P 08:57:04 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-145-158.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 08:57:06 <Pikka> well roadworks counter can go away :) 08:57:35 <andythenorth> no no, everything must be supported, for ever 08:57:42 <andythenorth> because roadworks are so much gameplay fun :P 08:57:47 <oskari89> :D 08:57:54 <andythenorth> also for all the sense it makes: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1300/ 08:57:58 <oskari89> Railworks! 08:58:16 <Alberth> oskari89: we ahve the big ufo for that :) 08:58:23 <Pikka> andythenorth: first thing we do is drop trams as a seperate layer 08:58:49 <andythenorth> ? 08:59:00 <andythenorth> in the graphics drawing, or in the bits? 08:59:09 <Pikka> in the bits 08:59:17 <andythenorth> yes 08:59:26 <andythenorth> can't see why it would be needed 08:59:32 <andythenorth> it's just property of the type 09:00:08 <andythenorth> does that reduce number of owner bits needed? :O 09:00:13 <Pikka> yes 09:00:26 <andythenorth> so I can't build my tram track along your road? 09:00:35 <andythenorth> but I can cross it 09:00:37 * oskari89 is fitting FIRS cargoes to Finnish Trainset wagons 09:00:44 <andythenorth> oskari89 :) 09:01:02 <andythenorth> oskari89: you'll be pleased when I change all FIRS cargos again then ;) 09:01:09 <andythenorth> oh wait, I promised not to do that :P 09:01:17 <oskari89> :P 09:01:28 <oskari89> Please do not change ID's. 09:01:29 <oskari89> :D 09:01:44 <andythenorth> oskari89: if you do the support based on label you'll be fine 09:02:08 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:02:16 <andythenorth> and don't rely on classes if you want refits or graphics for specific cargos 09:02:21 <oskari89> I'm not literally coding, just fitting them on tracking tables. 09:02:32 <andythenorth> Pikka: so how many bits needed? 09:02:46 <Pikka> ownership and updating is a tricky thing, yes :) 09:03:08 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-197-56.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: your multiline-timestamps make the logs very hard to read 09:07:41 <andythenorth> sorry, stupid paste format 09:07:45 <Pikka> how do rail crossings decide what to use? is it highest ID? I guess we could use the same for roadtypes... 09:07:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: there's not much of use there anyway 09:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: what do you mean? there's only ever one railtype on one tile, so no difficulty to choose anything 09:09:18 <andythenorth> Pikka: didn't read the source, but seems highest ID wins 09:09:36 <Pikka> yes eddi, but if you build one line across another 09:09:43 <Pikka> say, 3rd rail across normal rail 09:09:56 <Pikka> the intersection becomes 3rd rail regardless of which was built first 09:10:15 <oskari89> Well, Finnish Railset has 8 types of level crossing overlays.. 09:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe it's the compatibility/powered half-order deciding this 09:10:30 <Pikka> hmm, interesting 09:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> if A is compatible and powered on B, then B wins 09:10:52 <Pikka> if I build a "dual power" track across a 3rd rail track, the crossing ends up 3rd rail only ;) 09:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if not, then conversion fails 09:11:11 <Pikka> anyway, we could do something similar for roadtypes, have some way of working out connections 09:11:26 <andythenorth> peter1138 worked all this out once 09:11:27 <Pikka> like in the given example of a dirt road and a highway, the highway should win based on some criteria 09:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> highways shouldn't allow crossing :) 09:11:48 <Pikka> well 09:11:54 <Pikka> a dirt road and a tarmac road then :P 09:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (needs special onramp/offramp objects) 09:12:30 <oskari89> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBL13JzREz4 09:12:47 <oskari89> What about sweden, it has level crossing on highways ^^ 09:14:33 <andythenorth> Pikka: I had a thing about type 1 and type 2 in layer order 09:14:36 <Eddi|zuHause> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1301/ <-- as far as i can see, this is the code that determins which railtype "wins" 09:14:48 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host139-62-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 09:14:50 <andythenorth> and some types would always try to be drawn higher, others lower 09:14:54 <Pikka> yeah, but I think we should drop type 1 and type 2 09:15:14 <andythenorth> k 09:15:24 <oskari89> Do diagonal roads along with roadtypes :) 09:15:31 <Wolf01> hello 09:15:35 <Pikka> it just needs more thinking about ownership when it comes to overbuilding 09:15:51 <andythenorth> roadtype property for 'prefers to be higher' ? 09:16:15 * andythenorth can't see any way for ottd to determine which should be drawn higher without author setting a prop 09:16:25 <andythenorth> e.g. use compatibility or such 09:16:46 <Pikka> yes, we could have an ordering property 09:17:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that would mean that all types are known by the GRF 09:17:10 <oskari89> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=58049&p=988747 <- Would appreciate that :) 09:17:12 <Pikka> with some recommended values so roadtypes can work together, not that I imagine having more than one roadtype grf loaded at once is a good idea 09:17:26 <andythenorth> ach 09:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "not good idea" != "won't happen" 09:17:44 <Pikka> I know eddi 09:17:53 <andythenorth> so let's overlook that for now :P 09:17:54 <Pikka> but it should still work across grfs :) 09:17:56 <andythenorth> it is what it is 09:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: relying on that will almost certainly bite you in the maintainability/extensibility ass 09:18:28 <Pikka> I'm not relying on it eddi 09:18:39 <Pikka> I'm saying that it should be fine either way 09:19:30 <andythenorth> just set two bits 'prefers high', 'prefers low' 09:19:38 <Pikka> no 09:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i think the railtype compatibility check has some problems when the vehicles are powered on both railtypes 09:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: then the new one seems to win 09:19:59 <Pikka> andy, what is "high" and "low"? 09:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: it doesn't search for a "lowest common multiple" 09:20:32 <Pikka> fair enough eddi 09:20:33 <andythenorth> 'prefers to be drawn above other types' 'prefers to be drawn below other types' 09:20:41 <andythenorth> makes no reference to what they other type(s) are 09:20:46 <Pikka> nothing's being drawn above or below anything 09:20:50 <Pikka> there's one roadtype per type 09:20:52 <Pikka> er 09:20:54 <Pikka> per tile 09:21:05 <andythenorth> how are crossings handled? 09:21:17 <Pikka> one roadtype "wins" at crossings 09:21:26 <Pikka> ie, the one with the highest value in the prop :) 09:22:20 <Pikka> this property, I suppose, could also be used for overbuilding other people's roads 09:22:31 <Pikka> you can overbuild only with a roadtype with a higher value than the existing one 09:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: in your case, it checks whether all vehicles for "universal" are powered on "3rd rail" [true], and all vehicles for "3rd rail" are powered on "universal" [true], but it ignores the fact that "electric" are not compatible anymore (that is too far removed for the check) 09:22:43 <Pikka> and the ownership does not change... 09:22:56 <Pikka> I see eddi 09:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it may be solvable 09:24:45 <andythenorth> Pikka: let's try some cases 09:24:49 <Rubidium> and what if the new road has a significantly higher maintenance cost? Should the original owner pay for that? 09:24:57 <andythenorth> you have vanilla tarmac road, overbuildable by anything 09:25:03 <andythenorth> I build a farm track across it 09:25:23 <andythenorth> what happens wrt overbuilding being allowed, graphics, vehicle compatibility etc? 09:25:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: need owner for each road bit :) 09:25:37 <Pikka> no 09:25:59 <Pikka> presumably, tarmac road will have a higher rating than farm track, so where they cross the junction will be tarmac road 09:26:22 <andythenorth> and when I'm building, can I just extend-drag my farm track across your road? 09:26:28 <Pikka> yes 09:26:30 <andythenorth> or do I have to switch type for the junction tile? 09:26:49 <Pikka> you should be able to drag across it, and it will automatically build the junction 09:26:53 <Pikka> with tarmac road 09:26:59 <andythenorth> and I get charged the cost of tarmac? or farm track? 09:27:20 <Pikka> tarmac I guess. that's a minor issue though. 09:27:34 <Pikka> Rubidium: yes, the original owner pays the increased maintanance cost 09:27:44 <andythenorth> and if my vehicle is 10mph on farm track, but 50mph on tarmac, does it accelerate on this tile? 09:27:55 <Pikka> yes 09:27:58 <Pikka> because it's tarmac 09:28:10 <andythenorth> so if there is a grid of roads e.g. | | | | | | 09:28:17 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7dbe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:28:21 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:28:26 <andythenorth> I could build a cheap farm track and get better performance at your cost? 09:28:47 <andythenorth> in fact, possibly griefing you in MP with extra costs 09:28:56 * andythenorth doesn't think this is automatically bad 09:29:09 <Pikka> there's no extra cost in this case, I already have the tarmac road tiles 09:29:20 <Pikka> you building farm track across it doesn't give me more tarmac tiles 09:29:22 <andythenorth> k so the extra couple of bits make no difference 09:29:40 * andythenorth is sold so far 09:29:48 <Pikka> yes, it's griefable. but multiplayer is already griefable 09:29:54 <andythenorth> +1 09:29:57 <Pikka> especially when it comes to roads 09:30:04 <andythenorth> and non-griefing games might be very dull 09:30:09 <andythenorth> life is griefable :P 09:30:18 <Pikka> for example, if you build a road connecting to my road, I can already remove the junction where they connect 09:30:32 <andythenorth> +1 09:30:51 <andythenorth> roadworks are built-in griefing? :P 09:30:56 <oskari89> I think if crossing type is user-defined, that would be nice. 09:31:03 <andythenorth> ? no :P 09:31:04 <Pikka> if I have a network of dirt roads and you go and upgrade them all to super-duper highways and blow my costs out of the water 09:31:10 <Pikka> the solution is to not play with you any more :) 09:31:13 <andythenorth> +1 09:31:28 <andythenorth> the solution is to always make sure you're the server admin :P 09:31:42 <andythenorth> praps that's why there appears to be more servers than players 09:31:58 <andythenorth> k 09:32:03 <andythenorth> so you've solved it? 09:32:11 <andythenorth> can I build tram tracks along your superhighway? 09:32:22 <Pikka> probably not 09:32:32 <Pikka> highways tend not to have tram tracks 09:32:44 <andythenorth> so 'tram' is a type property, not a bit 09:32:49 <Pikka> yes 09:32:59 <Pikka> you can build tarmac+tram along my tarmac 09:33:01 <andythenorth> which means 'pipeline' could be a type property? :| :P 09:33:45 <andythenorth> also 'underground metro' 09:33:58 <Pikka> I guess so, but no. :P 09:34:23 <andythenorth> the build menu is going to be sucky 09:34:28 <andythenorth> but it's identical to railtypes 09:34:35 <Pikka> I guess one shortcoming is that if you're building tram tracks on my roads and you make a mistake, you have to ask me to remove it... 09:34:45 <andythenorth> ho 09:34:47 <andythenorth> interesting case 09:35:58 <andythenorth> store a transaction history per tile, allow rollback 09:36:06 <andythenorth> praps not 09:36:09 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-77-206.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 09:36:10 <Pikka> nah 09:36:41 <andythenorth> how do I do elevated trams? 09:36:57 <Pikka> hopefully you don't 09:37:02 <andythenorth> +1 09:37:06 <andythenorth> they drive through bridges 09:37:09 <andythenorth> I looked into it :P 09:37:49 <Eddi|zuHause> subway/high rail may be better implemented with custom bridges 09:37:54 <Pikka> roadtypes isn't going to allow proper elevated metros and pipelines any more than railtypes has allowed proper underground subways 09:38:09 <andythenorth> 'proper' 09:38:10 <andythenorth> ho 09:38:15 * andythenorth was planning improper ;) 09:38:22 <Pikka> well 09:38:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: + lots to that 09:38:26 <Pikka> you can improper all you like 09:38:36 <Pikka> but it's still going to be, basically, vehicles driving along a road 09:38:40 <Pikka> or a canal ;) 09:38:53 <Pikka> berb dinner 09:39:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: subway by: (1) cut channel fill with rail (2) build bridge for road over top (3) hope town fills in slopes with buildings 09:39:18 <andythenorth> stations are sucky though 09:40:01 <andythenorth> there's a station set somewhere with buildings above the station 09:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but you cannot build the road bridge along the rail/tram 09:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only across 09:40:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you can if the rail turns out before the bridge ends 09:40:27 <andythenorth> can't you? 09:40:33 * andythenorth tests 09:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and even if you could build it across, the town won't build houses next to the road 09:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, yes, but the turn takes so much space that it's useless 09:43:01 <andythenorth> and you can't create road junctions 09:43:04 <andythenorth> that's the real killer 09:43:07 * andythenorth just tried :P 09:43:20 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... we don't have transitivity on the powered relation 09:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes a lcm difficult 09:47:05 <frosch123> awesome, fs#5143 was broken between ottd 0.3 and ottd 0.4 09:47:21 <Alberth> :) 09:47:43 <Pikka> shameful 09:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> so much for people playing toyland :p 09:47:58 <Alberth> So I played all those toyland games with the wrong graphics :p 09:48:08 <frosch123> that likely means that the fix will break ogfx 09:48:31 <frosch123> (i only played toyland with ogfx) 09:48:48 <V453000> toyland with ttd graphics is for real me 09:48:50 <V453000> men 09:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the difference 09:49:16 <Pikka> the "glass" bottoms on the towers, presumably 09:49:26 <frosch123> yup 09:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> aha... 09:50:49 <V453000> isnt that bad :) 09:52:43 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 09:54:33 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [] 09:56:59 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, so can we _make_ the powered relation transitive? (if A is powered on B, and B is powered on C, then A is also powered on C) 09:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, no, that breaks the universal rail case even more 09:59:58 <andythenorth> what is the universal rail case? 10:02:24 * Pikka creates "Some Other Road Types Definition" page on pikkawiki 10:03:17 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 10:03:20 <drac_boy> hi 10:03:28 *** Fori [4e33b2b6@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:03:31 <Fori> Morning 10:03:32 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-199-160.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 10:03:39 <drac_boy> hi fori :) how're you? 10:03:53 <Fori> I'm fine thanks ^^ 10:04:03 * andythenorth creates 3/8 long truck body plan 10:04:14 <Fori> How's your translation going on? ^^ 10:04:38 <Fori> Cast your vote ECS or FIRS? 10:04:44 <drac_boy> fori hmm...theres a few words I could use alternative suggestions on otherwise its going along ok...some new data too 10:04:45 <andythenorth> +0 10:05:04 <Fori> I dunno which one to use. 10:05:27 <Pikka> silly andythenorth, 3/8 isn't "long" ;) 10:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> 3/8 is currently the shortest i allow in my scheme :) 10:05:52 <andythenorth> indeed not 10:05:58 <andythenorth> it's teeny tiny 10:05:59 <drac_boy> fori hmm well I would have to say firs ... ecs has a few weird things (not counting the difficult steel mill) 10:06:03 <Eddi|zuHause> 16/8 the longest 10:06:03 <Fori> Wow... Am I just in one chatroom with the creators of FIRS and Aviators Aircraft? 10:06:06 <frosch123> tron broke it in a _huge_ coding style commit 10:06:13 <frosch123> @commit 3181 10:06:13 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by tron :: r3181 /trunk (63 files in 5 dirs) (2005-11-14 19:48:04 UTC) 10:06:14 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Bracing 10:06:15 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Indentation 10:06:16 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Whitespace 10:06:16 <Pikka> seems possible, Fori 10:06:17 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -DeMorgan's Law 10:06:18 <andythenorth> Fori: imagine 10:06:19 <DorpsGek> frosch123: (...) 10:06:24 <Fori> Wow. 10:06:25 <Fori> ^^ 10:06:36 <Fori> Just take a THANKS of mine for your work :) 10:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so much for non-logic-changing commits :) 10:06:51 <andythenorth> Fori: :) 10:07:10 <Fori> Thanks drac, I'll try out FIRS then. 10:08:03 <Fori> Which trainsets do you use drac? Or anyone? 2cc has simply too many...^^ 10:08:27 <drac_boy> any of you think that for a generic set I should consider adding some kind of commuter-related wagon or two? lets say the newest passenger wagon seats 60 then I probably could make something that'll 'seats' I dunno maybe 110 and come with a lower top speed as a result? 10:09:24 * drac_boy agrees that 2cc is a bit too unwieldy especially with many too-alike trains 10:09:49 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 10:10:02 <Pikka> I use UKRS2, Fori :) 10:10:11 <Pikka> but I would 10:10:50 <Fori> It doesnt work with OpenTTD 1.1.5 10:10:59 <Fori> At least NewGRF manager says that. 10:11:11 <Pikka> no, it doesn't 10:11:22 <Pikka> but there's no reason not to update to 1.2.0RC4 10:11:24 * andythenorth would use eels 10:11:29 <andythenorth> but nobody coded them :( 10:11:34 <drac_boy> whats eels? 10:11:37 <Pikka> didn't they? 10:11:43 <Fori> There is an eels addon andy ^^ 10:11:51 <Fori> Okay Pikka! :) 10:11:54 <Pikka> I checked someone's savegame for them the other day and they were using eels. 10:11:54 <Fori> Doing that right now. 10:12:25 <drac_boy> fori I guess this is to our own but I don't like ukrs or ukrs2 too much game-wise 10:12:36 <drac_boy> but the list of locomotives given (from pikkawiki) is nice on other hand 10:13:07 <Pikka> it doesn't have enough 120-passenger coaches for some people :) 10:13:17 <drac_boy> pikka heh it wasn't that :) 10:13:51 <Fori> Can you recommend another then, drac? 10:13:53 <andythenorth> well bother me 10:13:56 <andythenorth> there is an eels grf 10:14:01 <Fori> As we said ^^ 10:14:10 <drac_boy> pikka you want know why or not that bothered? 10:14:11 <Fori> Pikka? Is aviators balanced for 1/4? 10:14:15 <andythenorth> I suspect it's not FIRS compatible :O 10:14:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24107 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5143] (r3181): Glass-sprite of bubble-generator was not drawn anymore for completely constructed tiles. 10:14:19 <Pikka> sure drac_boy 10:14:19 <Rubidium> frosch123: yeah, that's tron's style 10:14:28 <drac_boy> fori hm well do you want to actually know what I like? :) 10:14:34 <Fori> Yeah. 10:14:41 <Rubidium> also committing such stuff at moments you can't really use it 10:15:03 <Pikka> Fori; the running costs will be reduced at 1/4, but it's still not really recommended. There are plenty of aircraft in av8 which travel at less than 200mph, and they're very slow at 1/4. :) 10:15:22 <Rubidium> out of the blue after someone else's patchset was reviewed, but before everything was committed 10:15:23 <andythenorth> there is a cargo graphic for eels too :) 10:15:27 <Fori> So what would you say? Which setting it's best balanced for? 10:15:28 <Rubidium> ofcourse breaking the patch set 10:15:30 <drac_boy> pikka its the train capacity in relation to length.. I'm just the kind to run short or medium train once in a while and ukrs just never works well because it seem to have to be long semi-frequent trains on the contrast which kinda throws the mostly-single rail routes off balance 10:15:34 <Pikka> 1/1 Fori 10:15:43 <Fori> Really? 10:15:45 <Fori> Alright. 10:16:14 <Fori> Do you like the Word airliners set? Since it's like the heir of your set, isnt it? 10:16:27 <Pikka> capacity/length in UKRS2 is fairly similar to the vanilla vehicles, drac_boy 10:17:42 *** Fori [4e33b2b6@ircip4.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 10:17:50 *** Fori [4e33b2b6@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:17:53 <Fori> Misclicked...^^ 10:18:01 <drac_boy> fori for temperate it would be dbsetxl+germanrv+newships ... or japset+newrv+newships ... arctic is a bit of indecision yet but its arcticset(different from dbsetxl)+germanrv+newships or oldcanset+3.5lv+newships 10:18:46 <Fori> Btw I responded to your whisper. 10:18:49 <Fori> Thanks. 10:18:55 <Fori> Are those compatible with FIRS /EC? 10:18:58 <Fori> ESC. 10:19:01 <Fori> ... 10:19:09 <drac_boy> pikka yeah well I have a 96 tonnes coal mine and a long spinely (spelling?) route to the powerstation which I usually only have two trains each made up of one branch locomotive and just 3-5 wagons 10:19:41 <drac_boy> with ukrs it has to become a mildly heavy train with 8+ tiles long platforms so, I guess to our own gameplay styles and habits :) 10:20:06 <drac_boy> fori dbsetxl has a newcargo patch grf so it should work I recall 10:20:14 <drac_boy> and canset/japset already supports it I think 10:20:33 <Fori> Are all of those available through Bananasà 10:20:52 <drac_boy> I have no idea, I always use the real source which at least gives me the readme to reference to :P 10:20:57 <drac_boy> sorry ;) 10:21:00 <Fori> k 10:21:16 <Fori> It's just that it's more complicated to deliver it to friends ^^ 10:21:40 <drac_boy> well fori I think its easier especially with the extra files given but to our own 10:21:59 <drac_boy> I'm not planning to allow banana uploading for a while but I'm not too certain yet, we'll just have to see in a few months 10:22:10 <Fori> Oh, wait, which is your set? 10:22:42 <andythenorth> hmm 10:22:45 <andythenorth> small truck body 10:22:45 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2787/trailer-0_2-body_tipping_4px-light_grey-3_8-bulk-corn_yellow.png 10:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the closest i got to a solution: currently, you check "powered(A,B) or powered(B,A)". this should be extended to "powered(*,A) subset powered(*,B)" 10:23:50 <drac_boy> andythenorth if thats meant to be a light 2-axle truck I don't see anything wrong with the sprites :) 10:24:14 <andythenorth> most trucks are only about 5/8 long 10:24:20 <drac_boy> just insert some more length in the middle to get a 3-axle truck version 10:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> (in case both powered(A,B) and powered(B,A)) 10:24:29 <drac_boy> and maybe just a little bit longer again to make it a trailer instead 10:24:33 <andythenorth> that is the 3-axle version ;) 10:24:43 <drac_boy> andythenorth umm its a bit too short then :) 10:24:50 <andythenorth> not really 10:24:53 <drac_boy> that amount of grain looks too easy on 2 axles even for wooden bridges 10:24:57 <andythenorth> trucks are small 10:25:24 <drac_boy> hmm might be better if I saw it with the body drawn with it then perhaps? 10:27:49 <drac_boy> but andythenorth the only one minor complain I could suggest would be to have a thin tarp covering the load in the bottommost sprites row. unless they don't always do that over there? 10:29:21 <Fori> 1.2.0 supports different newGRF folders in Data, does it? 10:29:45 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2788/truck.png 10:29:56 <drac_boy> fori its always had, the only difference is setting it in the newgrf options before starting a new map :) 10:30:28 <Fori> Ah... Cool. 10:30:38 <Fori> To be honest I've been putting em in content download all the time... 10:30:39 <drac_boy> andythenorth hmm now that I see the cab I wonder if you drew the boxes a little too high height-wise? I dunno what kind of sizing you want tho so I'll leave that to you 10:30:41 <Fori> But nvm me plz :D 10:31:10 <Pikka> hmm andy 10:31:17 <andythenorth> I'll teach the pixel generator to draw 3px high bodies :) 10:31:31 <Pikka> I'm not sure it needs two rear axles either :) 10:31:33 <drac_boy> andythenorth this being from someone who always see dump body being almost same height as a daycab (or non-sleeper) cab roof 10:31:55 <Fori> Can I turn off that last two zoom steps? 10:32:03 <drac_boy> pikka heh I had thought it should had been 2-axle for the small box size. go figure :) 10:33:38 * andythenorth shrug 10:33:47 <andythenorth> wheels are too big 10:33:54 <andythenorth> if we're sizing relative to UKRS :P 10:34:07 <andythenorth> wheels should be 1px, not 3px :P 10:35:18 <drac_boy> btw pikka I found something yesterday, uk had a 2ft5inch gauge railway that actually had a few transporters. probably was the only one of its kind in uk I imagine 10:35:19 <Pikka> :) 10:35:36 <Pikka> well, it's all the look, accurate scaling is not required 10:37:06 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2789/truck_smaller.png 10:37:11 * andythenorth is unconvinced by smaller wheels 10:37:15 *** Fori [4e33b2b6@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:37:25 *** Fori [4e33b2b6@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:37:28 <Pikka> yup 10:37:30 <andythenorth> that's a small day cab, not a sleeper btw 10:37:39 <andythenorth> so the cab should look relatively small 10:37:42 <Pikka> I think the horizontal views need a hub and a tyre 10:37:48 <Pikka> the diagonal views can be all tyre 10:39:18 <andythenorth> +1 10:40:13 <drac_boy> hm I keep thinking about this for the second day now, what does anyone think of enabling transporters ingame? it could trade off the slower top speed for higher capacity compared to native wagons 10:41:04 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2790/truck_4_axle.png 10:41:18 <Pikka> octopods 10:41:19 <andythenorth> drac_boy: real transporters? 10:41:24 <Pikka> I'ma draw some of them :) 10:41:27 <andythenorth> drac_boy vehicles in vehicles? 10:41:42 <TinoDidriksen> Star Trek transporters. 10:41:53 * andythenorth generates tank body 10:42:03 <drac_boy> andythenorth actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transporter_wagon 10:42:17 <Pikka> pew pew 10:42:17 <andythenorth> I know what you mean ;) 10:42:24 <andythenorth> I just wonder how you would implement them 10:42:57 <drac_boy> well just draw it as always having the wagon on top all the times :) 10:43:22 <andythenorth> 'real' transporters is same problem class as vehicle ferries etc 10:43:30 <drac_boy> and imagine that the standard gauge railroad (that is if you don't have any in first place) is 'just a few kilometers off the map' 10:45:07 <drac_boy> andythenorth at least boats exist as foot ferries so I don't care too much for them :) 10:45:37 <oskari89> CSDSet had 40 px long wagons, are they hard to code? 10:46:38 <oskari89> Would allow much more detail: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=110908 10:50:15 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2791/truck_4_axle_tank.png 10:51:47 <Pikka> very shiny :) 10:52:07 <andythenorth> I might teach pixa to composite the truck and the body 10:52:13 <V453000> looks cute andy 10:52:21 <andythenorth> then [pikka] can redraw the trucks later :P 10:53:29 <andythenorth> for [reasons] all truck cabs are multiples of 4px 10:53:38 <andythenorth> :) 10:55:51 <V453000> :D 10:58:49 *** cl8 [~potatoes@host-92-3-233-27.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 10:59:15 <Pikka> hmm 10:59:28 <Pikka> the tram u-turns 10:59:31 <Pikka> let's get rid of them :D 11:00:03 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:00:41 <andythenorth> they are a gameplay PITA 11:00:46 <Pikka> yes 11:00:49 <Pikka> and "unrealistic" 11:00:53 <andythenorth> also...sometimes a tram seems to turn on a non-U anyway? 11:01:05 <Pikka> and getting rid of them makes the spec easier ;) 11:01:06 * drac_boy prefers trams to rvs 11:01:25 <andythenorth> the behaviour seems non-deterministic although it must be :P 11:01:59 <andythenorth> also...in towns....finding a tile for the u-turn often isn't that easy 11:02:06 <andythenorth> so the space gain is...not much 11:02:22 * andythenorth waits for eddi's "state machine" auto-responder to kick in ;) 11:06:16 <andythenorth> Pikka: got wiki yet? 11:06:23 <Pikka> nearly 11:06:48 * andythenorth browses 11:07:02 * andythenorth suspects Pikka actually wants roadtypes for nefarious space-based reasons 11:07:21 <Pikka> ew 11:07:26 <drac_boy> heh 11:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> trams need proper multi-tile turning loops!! 11:09:22 <drac_boy> I don't think so 11:09:25 <Pikka> well 11:09:27 <Pikka> you can build those 11:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and there are trams that don't need u-turns 11:09:31 <Pikka> :) 11:09:33 <Pikka> yes 11:09:48 <drac_boy> the problem is the scale.. eg one tile should be at least 3-4 lanes wide and have more sidewalk 11:09:49 <Pikka> but the closest you can get to that now is to build a depot and have it drive in and out :) 11:09:58 *** cl8 [~potatoes@host-92-3-233-27.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:09:59 <drac_boy> but as the limit is...you only get 2 lanes with just a bit of sidewalk but not much 11:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> simcity-style avenues (with and without tram in the middle) 11:11:07 <andythenorth> allow roadtypes to specify paths for vehicles? 11:11:11 <andythenorth> sounds like newports :P 11:11:27 <V453000> the scale realism is probably the most ridiculous of all discussions :D 11:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it does :) 11:11:54 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: where did you read "scale" here? 11:12:07 <V453000> with the tran tracks 11:12:08 <drac_boy> V453000 heh its why I'm doing everything in a bit different scale (which also means new buildings to match the vehicles too..meh) for my set 11:12:10 <V453000> m 11:12:35 <andythenorth> drac_boy: are you doing On30 or something? 11:13:05 <drac_boy> andythenorth I dunno, I mean it could be just about anything from 1:1 to 1:400 in the game :p 11:13:12 <drac_boy> heh 11:14:07 <drac_boy> although I guess that if you wanted to duplicate my set onto an actual model layout I would think your most inexpensive option could be HOm 11:15:46 <Pikka> http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Some_Other_Road_Types_Definition andythenorth 11:16:01 <Pikka> simple, it's mostly railtypes :) 11:17:20 *** alessandro [~alessandr@host176-16-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 11:18:07 *** alessandro [~alessandr@host176-16-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 11:19:32 <andythenorth> should we make a reference grf? 11:19:42 <Pikka> almost certainly 11:19:54 * andythenorth looks at the new props 11:19:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: how does your roadtype flags mix with newgrf road stations? 11:20:07 <drac_boy> hmm this reminds me of something else.. 11:20:07 <andythenorth> hmm 11:20:11 <Pikka> oh 11:20:18 <andythenorth> one roadtype simplifies catenary drawing too 11:20:23 <Pikka> I forgot to put the road stations in. :) 11:20:49 <drac_boy> if your trains need specific track type would it be better to bundle it within the same grf or not so much? 11:21:46 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 11:22:58 <Fori> Some dev of WAS in here ? ^^ 11:24:20 <andythenorth> hmm 11:24:27 * andythenorth ponders animated catenary for roadtypes 11:24:38 <andythenorth> [ropeways] :P 11:24:48 <andythenorth> anyway.... 11:25:02 * Fori is looking for some good airliners set because high doesn't like the two futuristic planes of Pikka.... 11:25:07 <andythenorth> so HEQS bulldozer might prefer to avoid roads with a minimum speed limits :P 11:25:08 <V453000> ropeways with monkeys! 11:25:20 <Pikka> yes. no bulldozers on the highway 11:25:32 <Pikka> unless it's the only way 11:25:44 <Pikka> it will just add a big number to the pathfinder penalty perhaps. 11:25:45 <drac_boy> andythenorth take programmable rail signals and redraw them as 'obvious' road signposts instead .... and there, problem solved :) 11:25:59 <andythenorth> min. speed limit is better for gameplay than highly restricted compatibility 11:26:00 <drac_boy> I would had program it as "speed under 40 no go" 11:26:09 <Pikka> yep 11:26:10 <andythenorth> if compatibility is too limited, crossings are a nightmare 11:26:24 <Pikka> build a bridge and get over it, I say 11:26:36 <Pikka> there, added loading bays to the action 3 11:26:55 <Fori> Will openTTD update newGRFs when a new release is on bananas? 11:27:41 <oskari89> Nope. 11:29:16 *** goodger [~ben@94-30-43-248.xdsl.murphx.net] has joined #openttd 11:31:36 <drac_boy> so track into grf or not? 11:33:14 <Pikka> hmm, actually 11:33:17 <Fori> Andy? 11:33:43 <Pikka> no, never mind :) 11:36:29 <Pikka> so what do you think andy, eddi, what's missing? :) 11:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: needs some thinking... 11:39:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: certainly the tractive effort multiplier should be different for trams and roadvehicles 11:39:50 <Pikka> hmm 11:40:18 <Pikka> I wouldn't have thought tramtracks + a roadtype with significantly off TE would be likely? 11:40:33 <Pikka> also, trams are roadvehicles. ;) 11:40:53 * drac_boy treats it as rails :) 11:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: anyway, the most obvious critique point of one-roadtype-per-tile is crossings. how do you want to represent a tram-with-road crossing a normal road, without drawing excessive tram bits? 11:42:46 <Pikka> in the same we we represent an electrified railway crossing a non-electrified railway without drawing excessive electrification bits 11:42:59 <Pikka> not at all :) 11:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: that's a big hack 11:43:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i know. i wrote it... 11:43:30 <drac_boy> eddi and what if it came to three? I mean a road-shared tramrail crossing standard rails :p 11:43:40 <Pikka> well, I was thinking more 3rd rail 11:43:45 <Pikka> where we don't even try 11:43:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 11:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause> because it was implemented before railtypes 11:44:05 <Pikka> yes 11:44:10 <drac_boy> pikka actually if you need a 3rd rail road crossing, just ask japan. they do have at least two existances of that 11:44:29 <drac_boy> bit complex thing...the third rail basically fold out of way unenergized then the gates opens to let cars through 11:44:33 <Pikka> but if we'd waited until it was resolved before implementing railtypes, we wouldn't have railtypes 11:44:47 <drac_boy> but at least for the game you don't have to draw that animation 11:45:02 <Fori> Is it designed that if I enable the HEQS I still have a lot of vanilla vehicles? 11:45:48 * drac_boy runs a 300 tonnes tram at 49km/h into fori? 11:45:49 <drac_boy> heh heh 11:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: the only way i can see one-roadtype-per-tile working is with multi-layer tiles like michi_cc's patch. but then you're back to the layering troubles again 11:46:59 <drac_boy> eddi the only one thing I currently hate about one-railtype-per-tile in infra sharing atm is....when you have little space to work with and the neighbouring diagonal track is of a different type from yours :-s oh well no simple solution for that one I guess 11:47:01 <Pikka> performance issues are too much if we query the roadtype on neighbouring tiles? 11:47:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: same discussion as with railtypes 11:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i think it's not, but your decision space may explode 11:47:53 <Fori> drac :( 11:48:02 <drac_boy> at least I never cared for it in my usual singleplay games (which is the patch instead heh) because I know its always only one rail instead of having to share a second one with someone else :) 11:49:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: but imho the 3rd rail should be part of the trackbase, not the track. which may make the decision chain more difficult 11:50:04 <drac_boy> eddi don't ask about LUL trains..you'll be talking about a 4th rail :p 11:50:07 <drac_boy> heh 11:53:52 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:54:16 <Pikka> hmm 11:54:19 <Pikka> I'll have a go 11:54:37 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9592:f27c:1e4d:9ee0] has joined #openttd 11:54:40 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 11:56:02 <andythenorth> just draw excessive tram tracks :P 11:56:08 <andythenorth> sure, it will look ugly 11:56:41 <andythenorth> [shrug] 11:56:44 <drac_boy> heh 11:57:32 <Pikka> yes 11:57:34 <andythenorth> but it solves 2 problems 11:57:43 <andythenorth> (1) no worries about layering 11:58:03 <andythenorth> (2) it makes roadtypes possible, instead of a theoretical discussion waiting for n other things 11:58:38 <andythenorth> "we are not Steve Jobs" 11:59:01 <Pikka> yes 12:00:30 <andythenorth> if we get multi-layer tiles, use those bits to cache what's on neighbouring tiles, then write varaction 2 for drawing xyz 12:00:40 <andythenorth> that's 'enhancement' 12:00:52 <Pikka> multi-layer tiles are for sissies 12:01:03 <andythenorth> tile-based storage :P 12:01:16 <andythenorth> everything would be better if it had storage 12:01:29 <andythenorth> hmm 12:01:35 <andythenorth> what does that roadworks counter bit do? 12:05:17 * andythenorth wonders if we can do something ugly, like set 'neighbouring tile has compatible type' in spare bits 12:05:33 <Pikka> nope 12:05:53 <Pikka> gotta test for the whole roadtype D; 12:05:58 <andythenorth> if there's only one type per tile, do we have a surfe it of bits? 12:07:14 *** cl8 [~potatoes@host-92-3-249-243.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 12:07:44 * andythenorth wonders if we can test for the whole roadtype 12:07:58 <andythenorth> cache it 12:08:16 <andythenorth> invalidate neighbouring tiles' caches when changing the roadtype on a tile 12:08:17 <Pikka> when do you update the cache? 12:08:21 <Pikka> yes 12:08:30 <Pikka> that would probably be the way to go 12:08:43 <andythenorth> it will have some odd cases I think 12:09:01 * andythenorth shrug 12:10:34 <andythenorth> hmmm...the alternative of letting newgrf author control what is drawn by querying neighbouring tiles is mildly terrifying 12:10:37 <andythenorth> for several reasons 12:10:51 <Pikka> is it? 12:10:53 * Pikka does it now 12:11:06 <andythenorth> do you get the type label? 12:11:21 <andythenorth> and do you have a big tree of 'if red then blue' type stuff? 12:11:42 <Pikka> I'm thinking IDs from a rail type table 12:11:49 <Pikka> and yes you do 12:11:59 <andythenorth> ugh 12:12:02 <Pikka> it's perfectly managable. 12:12:10 * andythenorth supposes worse things happen 12:12:12 <andythenorth> at sea 12:12:14 <andythenorth> for example 12:13:23 <andythenorth> Pikka: snow? 12:13:32 <Pikka> what about it? 12:13:33 <andythenorth> is actually important 12:13:38 <andythenorth> we need snow :P 12:13:55 <Pikka> well, there's an above the snowline var...? 12:13:58 <andythenorth> var 40 12:14:29 <Pikka> you want a callback for TE multiplier I suppose? 12:14:37 <andythenorth> prop 15 is a prop? 12:14:39 <andythenorth> yes...cb 12:15:04 <andythenorth> and a bit for 'has a snowplough been by recently' :P 12:15:12 <andythenorth> reuse the roadworks counter for that 12:16:16 <andythenorth> new cb 12:16:25 <andythenorth> 'vehicle is leaving tile' 12:16:41 <andythenorth> return values: 0, 1 12:16:54 <drac_boy> andythenorth why snowplough seriously? :p 12:16:56 <andythenorth> sets the roadworks counter :P 12:17:08 <andythenorth> drac_boy I have to explain? :o 12:17:16 <andythenorth> it's not obviously just neat? 12:17:56 <drac_boy> andythenorth explain that to someone who just wants to run one or few timber trucks to the forest in arctic map in August ;) 12:18:15 <andythenorth> shrug 12:18:18 <andythenorth> snow is snow 12:18:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: callbacks for roadtypes are probably crazy 12:18:25 <andythenorth> if it's on your road, you go slower 12:18:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: of course :) 12:19:22 <andythenorth> with a busy tile, the bits might flip on / off a lot :P 12:19:34 <andythenorth> hmm 12:20:49 <andythenorth> ho 12:20:54 <andythenorth> roadworks uses effect vehicles 12:20:54 <drac_boy> andythenorth if you seriously want to introduce snow onto roads then at least introduce lower speed and slight higher runcost with having chains on :P 12:21:26 <drac_boy> heh 12:21:38 * andythenorth can't figure out how the roadworks counter actually works 12:21:42 <andythenorth> IncreaseRoadWorksCounter looks relevant 12:22:59 <drac_boy> andythenorth I had always wondered how to enable a limited few weather effect to rails without making it too complex tho..and so far I dunno yet 12:23:28 <drac_boy> would be interesting for certain locomotives that have very light traction axle weights .. they'll have a bit of problem with rain-heavy months 12:23:40 <drac_boy> and thats just one of the few 'issues' a player might have seen 12:24:07 * andythenorth might be having a significant brain failure 12:24:21 <drac_boy> at least that uk signal sim (forgot the name, never played it much) actually has weathers factored into its timetabling 12:24:24 <andythenorth> oh 12:24:30 <drac_boy> eg if its raining a lot the trains would be slower to accerlate 12:24:36 <andythenorth> there are roadworks *bits* 12:24:40 <andythenorth> not a roadworks bit 12:24:44 <Alberth> big boss Mr. T.Ycoon does not care about rain 12:25:07 <drac_boy> alberth he would when he finds out that he ordered the wrong kind of locomotives to work the line when they kept running late :) 12:25:08 * andythenorth was a little bit 'wtf' about how 0-15 can be stored in one bit 12:25:24 <andythenorth> but we have the whole of m4 12:25:29 <Alberth> drac_boy: he fires the huy doing the planning :p 12:25:32 <Alberth> *guy 12:25:37 <andythenorth> surely m4 is open to creative abuse for roadtypes.... 12:25:40 <drac_boy> alberth then he's still back to square one :p 12:26:04 <Alberth> andythenorth: sounds like a british motorway :p 12:26:15 * andythenorth will be on the m4 shortly 12:26:24 * andythenorth is right next to the m4 right now 12:26:26 <andythenorth> literally 12:26:42 <andythenorth> and there will be roadworks 12:26:43 <Alberth> :) 12:26:52 <drac_boy> alberth and to be honest many of the real europe rails are clueless these years. I mean france used to have a few working snowplow wagons and at least one rotary but in the last few years they only had one or two plows left and the rotary all scrapped. and they wonder why a lot of passenger trains were trapped stuck :) 12:28:11 <Alberth> oh, the problem in the canal tunnel was much more fun, did you know snow melts in a tunnel ? :D 12:28:11 <drac_boy> even eurotunnel's quote of "unprecident weather" was quickly shot down by reasonably-thinking news sources... there really was nothing unprecident about it, the only thing unprecident was the lack of train maintenance :p 12:29:32 <drac_boy> and its not just that but one of the thing that I've noticed a lot was that when a new electric locomotive replaces an old 1960-1980s one train reliability always seem to be worser during bad weathers even during the summer 12:29:48 <drac_boy> the older one had more stern steel in them is one way to put it :) 12:31:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24108 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_core.cpp ai/ai_instance.cpp game/game_core.cpp): -Fix [FS#5142]: When starting GS or AI, always use the settings of the game, not the new-game settings. 12:31:29 <andythenorth> so... 12:32:16 <andythenorth> is it a bad idea to have a cb that runs every time a (lead) vehicle leaves a tile? 12:33:02 <peter1138> we have that 12:33:25 <peter1138> or maybe it's only when the railtype changes 12:33:30 * andythenorth visits spec 12:34:04 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 12:34:35 <andythenorth> it's probably cb36? 12:35:00 *** kaenkky [~kaenkky_@212-226-73-37-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #openttd 12:35:11 <andythenorth> my idea was a cb for the tile, rather than the vehicle 12:35:39 <andythenorth> it allows resetting of (road) m4 bits only 12:35:57 <andythenorth> or something like that 12:38:20 <andythenorth> abusable for whatever creative purposes authors think of, with no rules, and no attempt at labels or any other crap 12:38:29 * andythenorth would use it for snow :P 12:39:49 <andythenorth> it would be pretty 12:40:05 <andythenorth> Pikka: idea...draw snow over the tram tracks. Graphics problem solved :P 12:40:14 <Pikka> yes 12:40:15 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:40:19 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:41:12 <andythenorth> also 12:41:16 <andythenorth> tram tracks are very small 12:41:22 <andythenorth> so just don't draw them :P 12:44:22 <Pikka> http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:Some_Other_Road_Types_Definition 12:44:26 <Pikka> there you are. too easy :) 12:48:03 <Pikka> I've got some things the wrong way round, now I look at it 12:48:12 <Pikka> but that's basically what it would look like. not too much trouble at all 12:48:28 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:48:51 <Pikka> and a maximum of 4 branches, so hopefully not too slow if the vars are cached. 12:49:13 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 12:49:24 <andythenorth> tidy 12:49:27 <Pikka> and if people don't go mad and coat the map with tramtrack intersections :) 12:49:41 <andythenorth> surely that's massively cache-friendly? 12:49:56 <frosch123> cache for roadtypes? haha :p won't hapen 12:50:02 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-059-060.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 12:50:37 <frosch123> there are no caches for stuff that belongs to tiles 12:50:54 <Pikka> okay 12:50:58 <Pikka> but even so 12:51:06 <frosch123> anyway, you do not need any cache for stuff that is only needed for drawing 12:51:12 <andythenorth> also...caching is invalid if the VA 2 chain contains bonkers madness 12:51:18 <Pikka> :) 12:51:22 <andythenorth> like date checks 12:51:24 <Pikka> well 12:51:28 <andythenorth> and snow 12:51:33 <andythenorth> did I mention snow? 12:51:42 <Pikka> snow business like show business 12:51:51 <andythenorth> Pikka: on a 2048x2048 map, does this kill my battery? 12:52:00 <andythenorth> there are a lot of roadcrossings in a game.... 12:52:04 <Pikka> well 12:52:15 <Pikka> you would only use this for tram tracks 12:52:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: do houses kill your game? 12:52:26 <Pikka> using it for every road crossing would be silly 12:52:57 <frosch123> s/game/battery/ 12:53:42 <andythenorth> Pikka: 'would' <- enforced how? :) 12:54:09 <andythenorth> what if i use it on every tile to choose to draw, for example, animated billboards 17 tiles long :P 12:54:41 <Pikka> enforced by your common sense :) 12:54:43 <frosch123> there are also people reaching the 64k limit for objects :p 12:54:46 <Pikka> I may have made a terrible mistake... 12:55:10 * andythenorth has driving to do 12:55:14 <andythenorth> and will bbl 12:55:22 <andythenorth> maybe with more trucks 12:55:23 <andythenorth> or not 12:55:31 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-150-61-253.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 12:55:31 <Pikka> okay, seeya! 12:55:41 * Pikka adds the proposed variables to the spec 12:56:34 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 13:03:56 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:04:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24109 /trunk/src/debug.cpp: -Fix (r24099): Warning from not using size_t to store the return value of strlen(). 13:18:03 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 13:39:07 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:45:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "road layers" suggestion: [for several roadtypes on a tile] each roadtype consists of these layers [ground tile], road base, road surface, road overlay, pavement, catenary. of each layer, all roadtypes will be drawn in a random but deterministic order, so if it is not transparent, one roadtype will "win" across the whole map. standard road will have transparent road overlay and catenary, standard tram will have transparent road surface 13:46:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so for order of (road,tram) the drawing order will be: ground, road base, tram base, road surface, (tram surface), (road overlay), tram overlay, (road catenary), tram catenary 13:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> drawing order may be defined by some priority value, or the order of action3 13:48:09 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhere in there the pavement is missing 13:49:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "base" and "overlay" will be composed of several sprites consisting of the center and the 4 road bits 13:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> center being one of "straigt", "curve"(x4), "t-cross"(x4), "cross" 13:50:10 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 13:50:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant "surface", not "base" 13:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "pipelines" could then consist of "base" and "catenary" only 13:51:24 <Pikka> mine's certainly simpler :) 13:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: but i fear it's not flexible enough 13:51:50 <Pikka> it's roadtypes 13:51:58 <Pikka> you shouldn't be trying to make pipelines with it 13:52:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i don't. but it's a neat thing if it can be done 13:54:24 *** kaenkky [~kaenkky_@212-226-73-37-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:39 *** kaenkky [~kaenkky_@212-226-73-37-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #openttd 13:56:03 <Pikka> also, I'm still not sure "several roadtypes on a tile" makes sense. 13:56:16 <Pikka> it still just seems like you're making a special case for trams 13:56:46 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 13:56:54 <Pikka> which I'm not sure is desirable from a set design or gameplay point of view, and I also think is holding back anyone getting stuck in and actually creating a patch 13:57:00 <Pikka> simple is good :) 13:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "simple" isn't good enough if you remove existing functionality in the process 13:58:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and i also said previously: if you separate things strictly between "road"-types and "tram"-types, then you have a problem fitting in trolleybus 13:59:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make trolleybus tram-like, but then you cannot combine both on a tile (which may be realistic, though) 13:59:34 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:00:36 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A1BA12.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:02:12 <Pikka> how to cope with the existing trams is indeed a problem for my spec 14:02:14 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:02:16 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has joined #openttd 14:02:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:02:40 <Pikka> hello andy 14:03:00 <andythenorth> that was...rainy 14:03:01 <Pikka> "how to cope with the existing trams is indeed a problem for my spec" 14:03:28 <andythenorth> screw em 14:03:36 <Pikka> yes 14:03:43 <andythenorth> oh yeah, backwards compatibility :P 14:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> another problem with making trolleybus tram-like is enforcing a road underneath 14:04:19 <Pikka> eddi: trolleybuses are silly vehicles which make even littler sense in TTD than they did in the real world 14:04:57 <Pikka> also, with my spec there's no such thing as "tram-like", so I don't really understand what you're driving at 14:05:32 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19E44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:05:41 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 14:05:43 * andythenorth -> logs :P 14:05:50 <__ln__> well they are being used in the real world 14:05:54 <Zuu> though you got a tram-like behaviour bit (no overtake + U-turn) 14:06:22 <Pikka> so don't set that for trolleybuses? 14:07:17 * andythenorth misses why trolleybus is a problem? 14:07:21 <andythenorth> it's just a bus, with power 14:07:23 <Pikka> so do I 14:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> trolleybusses can overtake, but they'll have some trouble with U-turns :) 14:07:46 <Pikka> anyway, the existing trams are a problem 14:07:57 <andythenorth> roadtypes can provide power right? 14:08:04 <Pikka> yes 14:08:26 <andythenorth> so where's the issue? 14:08:27 <Pikka> eddi: "realism" 14:08:30 <andythenorth> it's an electric bus 14:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but difference between "powered" and "compatible" is quite useless if you have no consists 14:08:45 <Pikka> true! 14:08:46 <andythenorth> hmm 14:08:53 <Pikka> I guess we can lose one then. :P 14:09:01 * andythenorth knows that Eddi|zuHause is nearly always right, but what's the issue? 14:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the issues are lots and widespread :) 14:09:41 <andythenorth> (1) specific to trolleybus 14:10:05 <Pikka> trolleybuses can overtake but not u-turn, apparently. 14:10:17 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:10:55 <andythenorth> as in, 'they need a specific movement path'? 14:10:57 * NGC3982 is in the mood for openttd 14:10:59 <Pikka> also, trains can't magically turn around in stations, and ships can't pile up on top of each other at docks. I suggest we all stop playing openttd until it can perfectly realistically model the behaviour of every vehicle which has ever existed. :) 14:11:20 <NGC3982> it has been a few months since 14:11:25 <andythenorth> ships can't drive through each in RL 14:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: one step at a time :p 14:11:42 <Pikka> yes 14:11:50 <Pikka> but let's not have the first step be trolleybuses 14:12:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you're trying to prevent future discussions along lines 'of hysterical reasons' which point to this spec, here? 14:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: my aim is pointing out future use-cases, and how the spec should be generic enough to cover them 14:14:00 <Zuu> Well, there are trolleybusses (and trams) with batteries, so assume OpenTTD trolleybusses got some small batteries that allow them to make U-turns. :-) 14:14:10 <Zuu> Problem solved. 14:14:11 <Pikka> okay, so provide seperate flags for "can overtake" and "can u-turn", problem sorted. we can't make it generic enough to cover /everything/ 14:14:15 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has joined #openttd 14:14:27 <Pikka> shall we try and incorporate vehicles which can travel cross-country? 14:14:31 <andythenorth> yes please 14:14:37 <andythenorth> and also amphibious 14:14:46 <andythenorth> and flying cares 14:14:50 <andythenorth> or even cars 14:14:56 <Pikka> yes 14:15:01 <andythenorth> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17626818 14:15:22 * andythenorth would be happier if newgrf wasn't held sacred 14:15:39 <Pikka> 9,000 14:15:39 <andythenorth> i.e. rather than 'we will never break newgrf' <- which isn't true anyway 14:15:41 <Pikka> lol 14:15:46 <Pikka> eh 14:15:50 <andythenorth> we say 'we might break newgrf under conditions xyz' 14:15:53 <Pikka> it's not newgrf which is the problem this time 14:15:59 <Pikka> it's the legacy tram system 14:16:20 <andythenorth> and we can't lose that because....? 14:16:27 <andythenorth> [game doesn't ship with trams anyway] 14:16:52 <Zuu> 0.6 or 0.7 did right? 14:17:33 <Zuu> possible only 0.6 as 0.7 got bananas. 14:17:49 <Pikka> old savegames, andy 14:18:06 <andythenorth> they break too :P 14:18:27 <Pikka> andy, you going to buy one of those flying cars? 14:18:39 <andythenorth> oh definitely 14:18:47 <andythenorth> when we introduce per newgrf on bananas 14:19:01 <Zuu> But it neegs an airport to take off? 14:19:05 <Zuu> needs* 14:19:11 <Pikka> 9,000... you could buy a much better plane and a much better car and still have 0,000 left :) 14:19:24 <Zuu> So it could be a part of the vehicles containing vehicles feature. 14:19:27 <andythenorth> eh who cares, we'll be rich on newgrf earnings 14:19:35 <Pikka> true 14:19:39 <andythenorth> get roadtypes in quick, we can sell the roads grf 14:19:53 <andythenorth> also, we can charge for 'updated' grfs when trunk breaks them 14:19:55 <Pikka> yes, but first the trams issue 14:19:57 <andythenorth> so trunk should break them a lot 14:20:00 <andythenorth> so the trams issue is? 14:20:10 <andythenorth> in plain english, using small words... 14:20:28 <Pikka> replacing the existing, own-layer hacky trams with roadtype trams 14:21:11 <Pikka> I guess we could retain the existing trams, and have a grf function to disable them... 14:22:05 <NGC3982> how do i get a train to wait in a depot for x days? 14:22:16 <NGC3982> i cant seem to get it right in the timetables 14:22:19 <Zuu> you wait x days and then click to start it :-) 14:22:26 <Zuu> eg, not possible to do automated. 14:22:31 <NGC3982> ah, i see. 14:22:45 <andythenorth> the tram issue is movement paths? Or graphics? Or type compatibility? or which? 14:22:55 <Zuu> you could have a station nearby with the only puprose of having trains staying there for x days if you want. 14:23:32 <Zuu> there is a no load-no unload order. 14:23:49 <Pikka> andythenorth: at the moment, there are two layers of "road", "road" and "tram" 14:24:10 <Pikka> we/I am proposing a spec with one layer of road. 14:25:02 <Pikka> there is no way to translate the former to the latter when loading old savegames. 14:25:21 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:25:25 <Pikka> or at least no way that wouldn't be an inordinate amount of work :) 14:25:37 <Pikka> for no benefit except converting old savegames 14:25:50 <andythenorth> so those bits would just be lost 14:26:05 <NGC3982> Zuu: i see. ill see what i can do :). 14:26:13 <Pikka> so you load an old savegame and end up with trams just sitting in the middle of fields 14:26:14 <Pikka> ? 14:26:21 <andythenorth> hmm 14:26:24 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:26:35 * andythenorth has horrible idea 14:26:40 <andythenorth> make road equivalent to tram 14:26:49 <andythenorth> then you get a savegame where trams can go on any road :P 14:27:10 <Pikka> although at the moment you can build tramtrack without road 14:27:23 <andythenorth> convert that to road 14:27:34 <NGC3982> Zuu: although, i think i will abandon the idea. http://i.imgur.com/KuPgv.png <- this is my setup. i thought id make the trains wait a bit on the return trip to the industry. though, i noticed that it might have bad implications on the industry rating. 14:27:41 <Pikka> it could work, andy 14:27:50 <andythenorth> Pikka: it's bonkers 14:28:09 <Pikka> it's better than anything I've come up with so far :) 14:28:12 <andythenorth> there is an alternative, which is to have ottd provide some types by default 14:28:18 <Pikka> yes 14:28:19 <andythenorth> e.g. road, tram, road+tram 14:28:30 <andythenorth> then set all tiles appropriately when converting savegame 14:28:34 <Pikka> this is the "inordinate amount of work" I was talking about :) 14:28:44 <andythenorth> then look at the action 0 props for newgrf vehicles to determine compatibility :| 14:30:05 <Pikka> well 14:30:09 <andythenorth> or just break the badger 14:30:10 <Pikka> "tram" is currently a flag 14:30:20 <Pikka> there's no proper roadtype property 14:30:22 * andythenorth wonders if there are other things it is desirable to break 14:30:40 <NGC3982> trow your tv out the window 14:30:48 <andythenorth> OpenTTD 2.0 could be the 'lots of things changed' edition 14:30:48 <Pikka> so I think logically, just turning them into road vehicles and replacing all tram tracks with road would be the right thing to do :) 14:30:51 <NGC3982> that might lead to some manly satisfaction. 14:32:11 *** Devroush|3 [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has joined #openttd 14:32:17 * andythenorth thinks trading massive legacy breakage against a set of awesome features would be very worthwhile 14:32:24 *** Devroush2 [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has joined #openttd 14:32:26 *** Devroush2 [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has quit [] 14:32:28 *** sortkrudt [~sortkrudt@80.203.24.9] has joined #openttd 14:32:29 <Pikka> yes 14:32:38 <Pikka> but let's keep the breakage it to a minimum ;) 14:32:41 <Pikka> -it 14:32:54 * andythenorth is used to python 14:33:10 <andythenorth> where hunting down legacy versions of python to run [some app] is common 14:33:13 <Fori> What's openTTD coded in ? 14:33:42 <NGC3982> cheeseburgers and mirc script. 14:33:53 <Fori> Thanks for THAT kind response. 14:34:04 <NGC3982> :) 14:34:25 <Fori> I don't know why people are like that... But I think I won't understand it ever. 14:34:36 <andythenorth> eels 14:34:44 <andythenorth> openttd is (mostly) C++ 14:34:58 <Fori> Thanks. 14:35:18 <andythenorth> afaik, the AI is squirrel 14:35:26 <NGC3982> Fori: im sorry, did i offend you? 14:35:27 <andythenorth> and there might be some actual C somewhere 14:35:40 * andythenorth is at the limits of his knowledge describing that much :P 14:35:59 <Fori> NGC, nah, not really. I just get fucked up if people answer to honest question like that one with so stupid things. 14:36:10 <Fori> Happens in a lot of IRC channel when people come in they don't know. 14:36:27 <Fori> And I simply don't get the point of it. 14:36:50 <Fori> Anyway, thanks andy. 14:36:51 <NGC3982> Fori: i see. it was of course none of my intentions to be such a bastard :). 14:37:21 <Fori> It's nothing with your answer specific. It's rather a general thing. 14:37:45 * andythenorth thinks we should also break some newgrf disabling stuff 14:37:53 <Fori> I'd rather have you telling me "I know but you could google". 14:38:11 <Fori> Andy? Are you using any aircraft GRF? 14:38:34 <andythenorth> Fori: I don't really play OpenTTD 14:38:43 <Fori> Oh, so you only code for it? ^^ 14:38:52 <Fori> Or paint sprites, or w/e? ^^ 14:38:59 <andythenorth> mostly newgrf 14:39:06 <Fori> That's what I ment, sorry. 14:39:09 <andythenorth> I play about once a year 14:39:22 <andythenorth> rest of the time I make feature requests here 14:39:23 <andythenorth> and moan 14:39:24 <Fori> Really? Where comes the ingame feedback from then? ^^ 14:39:54 <Fori> NGC? Have you any recommendations of an aircraft GRF? 14:40:35 <andythenorth> AV8 and GeneralAV8ion 14:41:12 <andythenorth> otherwise PlaneSet or however it's called 14:41:15 <Fori> Yeah, right. I've been using Pikka's aircraft since the first time I ever played openTTD 14:41:16 <NGC3982> Fori: well, i havent really tried as many of them as one should, though - PikkaBird's 'Aviator Aircraft Set' is really well made. 14:41:17 <andythenorth> but AV8 is better 14:41:36 <NGC3982> (AV8 is the same grf). 14:41:37 <Fori> It's balanced for 1/1, right? 14:43:35 <NGC3982> hm, i wonder; im using a basic two-train circle system to get coal from a to b. as the trains move along with time, i notice that the original rating of 76% drops to 68%, without any changes in the trains movement. 14:43:39 <NGC3982> how is that? 14:43:49 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/KuPgv.png 14:45:00 <Fori> There's no train waiting to load? No statue? 14:45:17 <NGC3982> no, not really, and no. no statue :). 14:45:33 <NGC3982> does a town statue make a difference? 14:45:56 <Fori> Yeah. 14:46:05 <Fori> I just noticed that yesterday. 14:46:14 <Fori> Looked it up in the game mechanics page of the Wiki 14:46:53 <Fori> What's that timetable stuff? Where does it come from? 14:47:35 <NGC3982> timetables can be used to make ..well, timetables for the trains. you find it in the orders windows, upper right. 14:47:48 <NGC3982> Fori: ill read up on that statue thingy. 14:47:59 <Fori> http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating 14:48:08 <NGC3982> @A transport company may build a statue in honour of its owner. This will increase its ratings at stations in the area, and looks impressive to passers by.@ 14:48:13 <NGC3982> \o/ 14:48:17 <NGC3982> Fori: thank you. 14:48:48 <NGC3982> i have two missions to complete, then. one is to change to faster trains, and the other to build a statue. 14:49:44 <NGC3982> the problem is that the the adjacent town doesnt even have that opportunity yet. 14:49:58 <andythenorth> Pikka: ship a default roadtypes grf with openttd, provides 'road, road+tram, tram' 14:50:15 <andythenorth> extend compatibility to vehicles that don't have roadtype props set 14:50:22 <andythenorth> based on type flag 14:50:34 <andythenorth> convert when loading savegame 14:50:46 <andythenorth> no backwards compatibility for the save 14:51:09 <andythenorth> everything carries on working same as now, out of the box 14:52:31 *** Devroush|3 [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:54:05 <Fori> NGC: The problem should be your cash. 14:54:09 <Fori> That the option is not there. 14:54:41 <Alberth> more precisely, the lack of cash :p 14:54:50 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has joined #openttd 14:55:10 <NGC3982> Fori: hehe. 14:55:20 <NGC3982> well, i cant decide what brings more money. 14:55:28 *** Mark [~Mark@5ED06D58.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 14:55:31 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e09ee84.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 14:55:40 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/uwcBJ.png 14:55:44 <NGC3982> i changed the trains and made this 14:56:12 <NGC3982> i noted a huge improvement in train profit, but a lower rating (and a small dip in coal production). 14:57:43 * NGC3982 adds a train 14:59:09 <NGC3982> ah, this was a fruitful experiment 14:59:19 <NGC3982> adding a train to the setup didnt affect the rating at all. 14:59:23 *** LordPixaII is now known as Pixa 15:01:59 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> tiny map is tiny 15:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> adding/removing trains by itself doesn't change rating 15:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "always a train at the station" improves rating 15:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and trains newer than 2 years improve rating 15:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and trains faster than 80km/h improve rating 15:05:08 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 15:05:19 <Fori> Do you actually use that timetable stuff NGC? I never did..^^ 15:06:33 <NGC3982> barely 15:06:36 <Fori> Btw NGC, you got some Windows updates waiting. 15:06:39 <NGC3982> this is actually the first time i find use of it 15:06:42 <Fori> k 15:06:56 <NGC3982> im as far from an openttd pro as the googolplex is from infinity. 15:07:09 <Fori> ^^ 15:07:22 <Fori> I ain't pro. I don't even know if I'm good. 15:07:22 <Fori> ^^ 15:08:15 * NGC3982 surely isnt. 15:08:31 <NGC3982> i have been playing it for years, and i still dont understand most of its functions 15:09:09 <NGC3982> openttd is the starship enterprise of the game universe. it reveals new characters, even in the last season. 15:10:31 <Fori> xD 15:10:44 <Fori> Well. I'm afk for a bit playing a bit of "Agricola". 15:11:07 <Fori> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricola_%28board_game%29 15:11:44 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D6E2.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 15:13:16 <Zuu> NGC3982: To improve your rating at Grenfingfield Mines, remove the waiting station and have the train load longer in Grenfingfield Mines instead. 15:15:23 <NGC3982> i see 15:15:25 <NGC3982> ill try it. 15:15:53 <Zuu> In general you shouldn't need to use a waiting station. It was just the answer to your question on how to make a train wait for X days at some place. 15:18:21 *** cl8 [~potatoes@host-92-3-249-243.as43234.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:26 <Pikka> andy: we could do that I suppose 15:19:42 <NGC3982> Zuu: i see. 15:19:45 <Pikka> she's pretty big job 15:19:48 <NGC3982> Zuu: it worked briliantly. thank you :) 15:22:31 <andythenorth> Pikka: or just break savegames :) 15:22:35 <andythenorth> range of options then 15:23:20 *** sortkrudt [~sortkrudt@80.203.24.9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:28 <Pikka> yes... 15:24:43 <Pikka> perhaps we should try and get the spec working, then worry about this? :) 15:28:48 <oskari89> Finnish Railset tracking tables now have FIRS cargoes :) 15:30:49 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.100.24] has joined #openttd 15:31:00 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/gXXcG.png 15:31:08 * NGC3982 read "finnish rallyset" 15:32:23 <andythenorth> Pikka: patchy patchy 15:32:30 <Pikka> yes 15:32:34 <andythenorth> do you plan to use any kind of repo or anything? 15:32:44 <Pikka> well 15:32:47 <Pikka> that's more your forte 15:32:57 <orudge> *forté 15:33:05 <andythenorth> there's a very old roadtypes repo on the devzone 15:33:30 <Pikka> would we be better off starting from scratch? 15:33:32 <andythenorth> yup 15:33:38 <andythenorth> that one is way behind trunk 15:33:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker: any objection if I delete current roadtypes repo? Can't imagine it's any use 15:34:10 <Pikka> orudge: forte 15:34:32 <andythenorth> ach 15:34:34 <Pikka> forty 15:34:41 <andythenorth> for reviewing and stuff we probably have to use a queue 15:34:53 * andythenorth is not the best at this :P 15:36:31 <andythenorth> Pikka: last time I tried this I was using mercurial with the mq extension for patch queues 15:36:43 <andythenorth> if I'd learnt it properly it would have made my life easier 15:37:12 <andythenorth> but at the time I might have been better just making small commits + diffing from them 15:37:26 <orudge> Pikka: forte knoxe 15:37:39 <Pikka> even so, you've had a lot more experience at it than I have, andythenorth 15:37:46 <andythenorth> doing something this big without many small patches is probably insane 15:37:50 <andythenorth> we'll never get reviewed 15:37:52 <Pikka> there too, orudge 15:38:02 <Pikka> I dunno 15:38:13 <Pikka> we'll have to use undue influence 15:38:19 <andythenorth> anyone care to advise the foolhardy? 15:38:28 <andythenorth> Pikka: have you got mercurial? 15:38:32 <Pikka> what small patches can we break it into, anyway? it's an all or nothing kind of deal 15:38:34 <Pikka> nope 15:38:37 <andythenorth> or I could learn git, but that way dragons lie 15:39:36 <andythenorth> Pikka: there might be some obvious steps: savegame handling, newgrf loading, drawing to screen etc 15:39:36 *** Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl21-140-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd 15:39:49 <andythenorth> but I'm way out of my depth, surrounded by sharks :P 15:40:07 <andythenorth> last time I managed to move one map bit, then got stuck handling savegames 15:40:07 <Pikka> eh 15:40:13 <Digitalfox> Hi Guys, been a couple of years since the last time I joined here :) 15:40:30 <Pikka> I vote for the avagoyamug approach... it worked for the original tramtracks :) 15:40:51 <andythenorth> well at least can we use a repo? not one massive diff :P 15:41:09 <Pikka> yes, we can 15:41:19 <Pikka> but like I said, you know much more about that sort of thing than I do 15:41:25 <andythenorth> install hg then :) 15:41:37 <andythenorth> or make me learn git 15:41:47 <andythenorth> http://mercurial.selenic.com/ 15:42:06 <Pikka> I don't know how to make you learn git, so okay 15:43:03 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:43:58 <Digitalfox> I have a silly question about Grfcodec 6.0.0, I'm doing grfcodec -d s.grf, and I'm receiving a error "expected more data during tile decoding for sprite 42", this a GRF from 2008 that I want to edit some train properties for my own game... It's still unedited so it's in it's original form... Am I doing something wrong on the options? 15:44:55 <andythenorth> Rubidium what's a nice way to start a big patch? Checkout ottd and push it to a new repo? 15:46:54 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:47:02 <supermop> wouldn't any nice patches be small, andy? 15:47:20 <andythenorth> not my wording :P 15:47:40 <andythenorth> it might not be a nice patch 15:49:38 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 15:49:56 <Zuu> andythenorth: I would clone trunk and then have my patch as a patch queue. 15:50:07 <Zuu> No need to commit I think 15:50:33 <NGC3982> bah, i dont get iron ore mines 15:50:40 <Zuu> just "hg qrefresh" to update your patches. 15:50:42 <NGC3982> i cant seem to motivate large production 15:51:11 <NGC3982> even with 70-72% ratings i only get like 30 tonnes a year. 15:51:50 <Zuu> then "hp pull" and "hg update" to update to newer trunk versions. (I usually pop all patches before pulling from trunk) 15:52:09 <andythenorth> Zuu: how do you share the patch queue? 15:52:55 <Zuu> So far I've only published the patches as files on fs or forums. 15:53:05 <Zuu> Not sure how one could share them as a repo. 15:53:16 <andythenorth> might not be needed 15:53:30 <andythenorth> but also, probably by arsing around pushing them into a different repo 15:53:37 <andythenorth> which I don't want to do 15:53:38 <supermop> are you taking roads by yourself? 15:53:45 <andythenorth> no pikka is 15:53:45 <supermop> *taking on 15:53:54 <andythenorth> I am standing around holding tools 15:53:58 <Pikka> D: 15:54:00 <Zuu> if you name your patches with ".patch" in the name you give them in HG, the files in your .hg/patches folder will have propper .patch extension and you can just upload those. 15:54:58 <andythenorth> Pikka: :) 15:55:18 <Pikka> oh, I guess that would work for "historic" buildings... 15:55:18 <andythenorth> my C++ is not great. How's yours? 15:55:26 <Pikka> only let them build on january first :) 15:55:32 <Pikka> my C++ is practically non-existant 15:55:32 <andythenorth> april 1st 15:55:57 <andythenorth> oh jolly good, that means we have no idea how hard this could be :) 15:56:04 <Pikka> yup 15:56:19 <andythenorth> knowing too much can slow you down 15:56:24 <Pikka> we need stevenh really 15:57:04 <Pikka> also, about 80% of what we want is railtypes, so we only need to do the other 20%. right? :) 15:57:56 <andythenorth> right 15:58:21 <andythenorth> a hg checkout of ottd is being very slow today 15:58:32 <andythenorth> I want this one, right? http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg 15:59:49 <Zuu> hg clone does fetch all historic changes too, not just the current state. So it is significantly slower than a svn checkout. 16:00:15 <Zuu> But once you got one clone you can updaet it and do local clones of it to get boiler plates for new patches. 16:02:00 *** kaenkky_ [~kaenkky_@212-226-43-80-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #openttd 16:03:04 <andythenorth> Pikka: so you could do "hg clone http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/ roadtypes" 16:03:12 <andythenorth> as a starting point... 16:03:20 <Pikka> I could, could I? 16:03:47 *** kaenkky [~kaenkky_@212-226-73-37-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:03:48 <Pikka> I guess I better install these tortoises and hgs first. actually I remember I did have this on my old machine way back when 16:04:01 <Pikka> when we were working on something for ttdpatch... 16:12:27 *** Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl21-140-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye] 16:12:42 *** Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@2.82.140.236] has joined #openttd 16:18:07 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:22:06 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has joined #openttd 16:26:40 <supermop> do you plan on changing the way one way roads form junctions? 16:26:56 <Pikka> at the moment they don't, do they? 16:27:02 <supermop> correct 16:27:17 <supermop> but it would be nice to make corners with one way roads 16:27:25 <Pikka> yes 16:27:30 <Pikka> well, possibly then :) 16:27:37 <supermop> currently an L requires you to switch back to regular road 16:28:04 <supermop> even though there is no possibility for a truck to get turned around on it 16:28:45 <supermop> also nice, would be a one way overlay on normal road 16:29:30 <supermop> like a a one way (one track) tramway over regular two way street, the reverse of what you can do now by placing tram on one way road 16:30:44 <supermop> one way tram would be pretty for balloon loops at end of line, but could be trouble in corners, intersection of normal street 16:31:11 <andythenorth> tram will be removed ;) 16:31:43 <supermop> meaning re-implimented differently by roadtype newgrf? 16:32:21 <Pikka> that's the theory 16:32:47 <andythenorth> Pikka: rather than removing tram U-turn, allow all vehicles to use those movement paths? 16:32:49 <supermop> how many types will your spec allow? 16? 16:33:05 <andythenorth> the turn-around behaviour of RVs is kind of tiresome currently 16:33:26 <Pikka> they turn around at the end of a tile, it's not that bad? 16:33:35 <supermop> i can see people not wanting a semi to u turn in the middle of a city street though 16:33:50 <supermop> very tiresome when that happens irl 16:34:11 <andythenorth> hmm 16:34:18 <andythenorth> Pikka has a good point 16:34:32 <andythenorth> why am I always building odd bits of tile in cities? 16:34:47 <supermop> if you touch movement, it would be better to improve passing 16:34:55 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 16:35:03 <supermop> both for highways and for roadside stops 16:35:23 <andythenorth> iirc, it's completely unrelated ;) 16:35:48 <supermop> best not to touch it all all then i guess? 16:36:36 <andythenorth> not as part of roadtypes indeed ;) 16:38:33 <supermop> hmm 16:38:57 <supermop> if a town built tramway, could a player drive trams on it? 16:39:15 <Pikka> of course 16:39:20 <supermop> you can drive busses on other players roads, why not their tramways? 16:39:42 <CornishPasty> Isn't a tramway just a train track that can go over roads? 16:39:58 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.114.235.117.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 16:40:02 <supermop> so a road grf could allow a town to build tramway, 16:40:13 <Pikka> yes 16:40:16 <Zuu> CornishPasty: Depends on the detail level 16:40:28 <Pikka> but towns full of tramways would be odd 16:40:28 <Zuu> At some detail level you are right and on some other you are wrong. 16:40:47 <supermop> i guess you'd end up with some stupid tracks but you could simulate a town building a tram system and contracting with a private company to operate it 16:41:09 <supermop> in the game its more like a special road flag 16:42:31 <Zuu> I didn't know that currently you can't run trams on opponent tramways. But if that is changed, something like wmDOT can make tram systems for you to run trams on. 16:44:10 <supermop> if towns build tramways, there would need to be some way to keep them from simply filling every tile in the center of town with track and grand unions 16:44:26 <Pikka> which there won't be 16:44:58 <supermop> but a road grf could allow that at its own peril, shouldnt concern the road spec either way 16:45:08 <andythenorth> that's what the spec says too 16:45:19 <andythenorth> bit 7 of prop 10 16:45:21 <supermop> same with pedestrial street 16:45:30 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:46:20 <supermop> if you want your cities to close streets to traffic there shouldnt be a problem with that, so long as you are ok with losing the ability to provide bus service down town 16:48:01 <Pikka> yes, except that kind of behaviour is beyond the simple stuff that towns do 16:48:31 <Pikka> if you created a "pedestrian street" it would either never use it because the rating was too low, or it would build every street with that street 16:48:42 <supermop> hmm 16:48:50 <Pikka> having a few downtown streets pedestrianised is well beyond the capabilities of the town "ai" 16:49:04 <Zuu> you would need to have a squirrel script to run under the scope of a town or so. 16:49:04 <supermop> is the a property to set what town zone it builds a type in? 16:49:21 <Zuu> But that might give a too high performance impact. 16:49:26 <supermop> ie fancy street in town and dirt roads way out on the edge? 16:49:49 <Pikka> no, there is not 16:50:14 <Pikka> but of course there is no reason your roadtype can't have fancy street in town and dirt roads way out 16:50:27 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has quit [] 16:50:41 <supermop> as the speed limits might differ, it seems there could be functionality beyond the current plain/sidewalk/trees/lamps 16:51:51 <Zuu> Could perhaps the town 'ai' prefer road types with a lower maximum speed? As a way to at least prevent it to upgrade the whole town to highways. 16:52:15 <Pikka> it will prefer whatever roadtype the grf tells it to prefer 16:52:32 <Pikka> I don't think highways are a good choice for town-built roads 16:53:17 <Pikka> I imagine a sensible roadtype grf will have towns build macadam/cobble early on, then normal tarmac roads. 16:54:02 <Pikka> if I ever manage to even code anything ;) 16:54:35 <Zuu> good point :-) 16:54:55 <Zuu> something got done is better than something better, not done. 16:55:11 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 16:55:39 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 16:57:14 * andythenorth ponders some horrible union of roadtypes behind the scenes 16:57:30 <andythenorth> so that 'tarmac road' is overbuildable with 'tram' or 'catenary' or whatever 16:57:42 <andythenorth> and then the type is actually merged 16:57:46 <andythenorth> ugh 16:57:54 * andythenorth does something more useful 16:59:44 <Pikka> D; 17:01:02 <andythenorth> globals smell 17:01:07 * andythenorth is removing them from a web app 17:11:37 <Pikka> smelly globules 17:11:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean globuli :) 17:14:05 <andythenorth> exactly 17:14:11 <andythenorth> anyway it's done 17:14:12 <andythenorth> so... 17:14:13 <andythenorth> bath 17:14:15 <andythenorth> then what? 17:14:17 <andythenorth> trucks? 17:14:18 <andythenorth> roads? 17:14:24 <andythenorth> or more work? 17:14:49 <Pikka> hard to tell. roads probably 17:14:54 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 17:14:59 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:19:16 <Terkhen> hello 17:19:17 <Eddi|zuHause> ("Globuli" are the units delivering "homeopathic medicin"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DoseOscillococcinum.jpg) 17:22:14 <andythenorth> hey ho Terkhen 17:22:27 <andythenorth> ^ Pikka there swaggers a worthy recruit 17:22:35 <andythenorth> try and persuade him 17:22:37 <andythenorth> I failed so far :P 17:23:23 <andythenorth> he's good at patching 17:23:26 <NGC3982> hm 17:23:39 <NGC3982> i cant seem to replace normal railway trains to electical 17:23:52 <NGC3982> when i choose it in the list, the list goes blank. 17:23:52 <Pikka> yikes :) 17:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that list shows the source engines, not the target engines 17:25:06 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the target engines always show both types 17:25:31 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/0gHE0.png 17:25:52 <NGC3982> note the window to the right. 17:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you have no electric engines 17:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> this selection is "replace FROM electric engines" 17:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause> not "replace TO electric engines" 17:26:27 <andythenorth> Terkhen: roadtypes! 17:26:31 <andythenorth> there's a spec and everything 17:26:35 <teggiiii> god bridges really rape the speed of a line 17:26:40 <andythenorth> http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Some_Other_Road_Types_Definition 17:27:41 <Terkhen> scary :P 17:28:51 <andythenorth> probably much more fun than rv wagons 17:29:04 <andythenorth> the downside of rv-wagons is that it's just not that common to have >1 trailer on a truck 17:29:42 <andythenorth> and having to 'build truck' then 'drag trailer' then probably 'refit trailer' is no more usable than 'build truck, refit' 17:29:54 <andythenorth> so...roadtypes! 17:32:17 * Pikka will help! 17:33:22 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: ah, my bad. thank you! 17:38:11 <teggiiii> dumbo-question: how can i make a coalmine produce more coal? transport it all and create a "higher demand"? 17:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> what google's augmented reality _actually_ would look like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysIClyFCgzs :) 17:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause> teggiiii: production increases over time if you provide good transport rating 17:39:24 <teggiiii> are there any brackets saying what is "good" and "bad" transport-rating? 17:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> teggiiii: check your station rating. ratings <30% makes it more likely to lower production, rating >60% makes it more likely to grow 17:39:47 <teggiiii> alright 17:39:48 <teggiiii> cheers 17:41:11 <teggiiii> re-designing a station and forgetting a track, creating a jam and not noticing for 10 minutes.. <3 17:41:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24110 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt latvian.txt unfinished/tamil.txt): 17:41:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:41:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093 17:41:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 45 changes by Parastais 17:41:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tamil - 25 changes by aswn 17:58:05 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 17:58:11 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 18:00:01 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:00:11 <NGC3982> facebook just bought instagram 18:00:22 <NGC3982> the price: one billion dollars. 18:01:26 <supermop> how many miles of single track, freight suitable railway could one build through a jungle with that much money? 18:02:52 <Terkhen> to the moon and back? 18:03:28 <andythenorth> supermop: in TTD? 18:03:31 <andythenorth> most of the map 18:03:36 <supermop> in SE Asia 18:03:40 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 18:03:50 <andythenorth> dunno 18:03:54 <andythenorth> it's not that much money 18:04:08 <andythenorth> it's probably what, / user or something? 18:04:11 <supermop> my new career plan is to be a cambodian railway baron 18:04:18 * andythenorth can't be bothered to look up instagram user numbers 18:04:31 <supermop> i doubt it 100 M people 18:05:37 <andythenorth> allegedly around 25M 18:07:18 *** Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@2.82.140.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:07:29 *** smoovi [~smoovi@e178208048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:09:59 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 18:12:55 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@85.151.142.17] has joined #openttd 18:14:17 *** Vpower [5571f105@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:15:07 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:15:34 *** Vpower [5571f105@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 18:18:11 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-199-160.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:19:14 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-199-160.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 18:19:16 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-199-160.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 18:22:06 <andythenorth> hmm 18:22:13 <andythenorth> just before a html <label> element: 18:22:14 <andythenorth> <!-- insert label --> 18:22:16 <andythenorth> really? 18:22:24 * andythenorth must have smoked extra crack that day 18:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> // this is a comment 18:26:35 <andythenorth> exactly 18:26:41 <andythenorth> <!-- this is html --> 18:27:11 <Eddi|zuHause> / the following line is self-documenting 18:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, wrong button ;) 18:29:16 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 18:30:36 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 18:35:23 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 18:45:14 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-151.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 18:46:36 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:51:40 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:53:02 *** flaa [~flaa@86-46-48-194-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net] has joined #openttd 18:53:36 <andythenorth> where's all the chat gone :P 18:56:25 <Terkhen> somewhere 19:05:26 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:10:39 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-27-135.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 19:16:28 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-77-206.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:16:48 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 19:18:35 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1176111076.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd 19:18:37 <drac_boy> hi 19:21:54 <Fori> hi 19:21:57 *** flaa [~flaa@86-46-48-194-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:22:40 <drac_boy> hi fori :p 19:22:44 <drac_boy> anything new this time? 19:22:59 <Fori> I think I found some nice setup... 19:23:12 <Fori> I didnt play any game with it but kept searching for GRFs. 19:23:20 <Fori> And now I was looking for some MP servers for 1.2.0 19:23:29 <Fori> But there's only a few. 19:24:55 <drac_boy> humm well I'm doing a few things atm but if you're still around for a while I could soon start a server? (although its not 1.2.0 so...) 19:25:32 <Fori> Nah, got university in the morning so I think I won't be online too long. 19:27:08 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 19:29:20 <drac_boy> ok :) 19:30:58 <Pikka> drawing hooses, andythenorth 19:31:27 <drac_boy> hoses or houses? 19:31:52 <supermop> new ottd feature: NewHoses 19:32:07 <supermop> much easier to transport liquids 19:33:04 <supermop> and HoseTypes allows you to upgrade from green garden hose to firehose as demand increases 19:33:40 <drac_boy> are you serious supermop? 19:34:50 <supermop> junctions are a bit tricky though: should the garden hose just lay over the firehose, or should that tile take on the larger hose diameter 19:35:28 <drac_boy> a garden hose isn't fit for any kind of industrial-size outputs..is it? 19:35:37 <drac_boy> or are you just talking about relative map scale? 19:35:55 <supermop> it is quite fit for new industry: lawn sprinkler 19:36:02 <Pikka> obviously every hose should be a separate layer 19:36:09 <Pikka> so you can have as many hoses on each tile as you like 19:36:13 <drac_boy> well a sprinkler has nothing to do with industry cargos :p 19:36:31 <supermop> yes, it accepts water from the faucet industry 19:37:08 <drac_boy> probably at a rate of barely 1 litre meanwhile its outputting more than 40,000 litres 19:38:04 <drac_boy> that would be...several thousand hoses for one single industry 19:42:41 <andythenorth> hose types 19:42:45 <andythenorth> very good 19:42:49 <supermop> OpenTTD is not to scale 19:43:03 <andythenorth> drac_boy: what's the dimension of a hose anyway? 19:43:11 <andythenorth> Pikka: hooses are not roadtypes 19:43:28 <drac_boy> andythenorth barely just enough to even sastify <5% of the output of the tropical water pump or any oilwells :) 19:43:30 <Pikka> I was working on the hooses already though 19:45:52 <drac_boy> fori mind if I pm you re some other words or you're already tired for bed? :) 19:46:51 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:47:04 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 19:47:05 *** krinn [~krinn@166.210.73.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 19:47:23 <krinn> hi everyone 19:47:30 <Pikka> hello krinn 19:47:56 <drac_boy> hi krinn 19:47:59 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-63-149.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 19:49:23 *** Jupix2 [~jupix@dsl-lprbrasgw1-ff11c100-110.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 19:51:20 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 19:52:13 *** Jupix [~jupix@dsl-lprbrasgw1-ff11c100-110.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:53:23 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 19:55:53 <drac_boy> anyone think you should be able to bring limited supply of food (aka feed) to a fishing ground or not so much so? 19:57:28 <Zuu> If you want to limit the amount you need to introduce stock piling, a somewhat advanced thingy that I think has been decided to not have in FIRS. 19:58:32 <drac_boy> zuu that wasn't quite the question heh. beside you can't feed 20 fishes 600 tonnes of food of a sudden :p 19:59:24 <andythenorth> drac_boy: if the fishing ground is a fish farm, yes 19:59:28 <andythenorth> if it's at sea, not 19:59:29 <Zuu> Sure, but while there is a "temporary full" message, there is to my knowledge no message to OpenTTD that an industry uses stockpiling or what the limits are (except for literal strings) 19:59:35 <krinn> drac_boy, maybe not for the fish, but you can still gave 600 tonnes of food to a fish farm, what they do with it while they raise only 20 fishes is their problem :P 20:00:18 <drac_boy> andythenorth thats what I was thinking (my friend has no idea what to tell me re this so he's not much help!) .. no food input then 20:00:27 <andythenorth> it was tried for FIRS briefly 20:00:29 <andythenorth> it's stupid 20:00:39 <andythenorth> reality is not our best guide, but in this case, it applies 20:00:57 <drac_boy> at least the cattle ranch can accept some food since thats a bit obvious 20:01:18 <andythenorth> you're delivering animal feed? 20:01:31 <andythenorth> where does the feed come from? 20:01:33 <drac_boy> yeah but to avoid complicating thing its just lumped into 'food' 20:01:48 <drac_boy> did think about seperate hay_ for a moment but didn't see much merit 20:02:01 <andythenorth> k 20:02:02 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-98-26.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:02:07 <andythenorth> so what does cattle ranch produce? 20:02:46 <supermop> steak 20:02:55 *** Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl21-140-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd 20:03:07 <Pikka> ranch 20:03:13 <drac_boy> I'm undecided between either shipping cattle out...or it being butchered on the spot and shipped out as meat instead 20:03:35 <andythenorth> is meat food? 20:04:31 <drac_boy> its a seperate one 20:05:13 <andythenorth> drac_boy: so how is food produced? 20:05:27 <TWerkhoven[l]> microwave meals 20:05:37 <TWerkhoven[l]> ready to eat, just heat em up 20:06:10 <drac_boy> theres a few small sources for food output.. farms ... flour mill (as breads is a 'food' after all heh) .. etc 20:06:16 <krinn> food for cattle, i'm afraid with dead cattle 20:07:15 <andythenorth> what do farms produce? 20:07:21 <andythenorth> food directly? 20:07:42 <Digitalfox> Since I'm not familiar with the development of GRFCodec, should I file a bug, when you get a error decompiling a GRF in 6.0.0 and not in 1.0.0? Maybe it's something known? 20:08:08 <drac_boy> interestingly enough in railroad tycoon 2 you had (farm)>grain>(bakery)>food>(town) and (farm)>grain>(stockyard)>cattle>(butchery)>food>(town) ... my rough diagram is not too far off from that 20:08:54 <andythenorth> drac_boy: FIRS doesn't have any farm->farm connection, but sometimes I think it should 20:08:57 <andythenorth> it can't though :P 20:08:58 <drac_boy> andythenorth actually the farm would produce just one output of something else that has to be sent to a middle industry for to then get 'food' out of it. I don't know which crops I'm thinking of yet but wheat is one consideration 20:10:12 <drac_boy> wheat could go to either bakery for 'food' or to the brewery to be mixed with bottles (glass, steel, or ?) then outputted as 'food' .. theres other crop suggestions I could think of too tho 20:11:15 <drac_boy> just as long as its not rice as that doesn't quite fit with snowy mountains :) 20:12:22 <drac_boy> btw maybe I should draw what I have of a diagram and let you criticize it then? :p 20:13:09 <andythenorth> maybe 20:13:12 <andythenorth> hmm 20:13:33 <andythenorth> it's quite tempting to put abstractions into code so that 'big changes are easy' 20:13:43 <drac_boy> heh 20:13:54 <andythenorth> this makes the code hard to work with when you have to read it and make small changes 20:14:05 <andythenorth> and once every 5 years you make the big change 20:14:11 <drac_boy> andythenorth btw do you think its plausible to make an industry that only can be placed on sloped tile adjacent to water? 20:14:12 <andythenorth> which you could have done in an hour with find + replace 20:14:21 <krinn> if you wish something none as done (to my knowledge) yet, it's trash :P 20:14:22 <andythenorth> drac_boy: FIRS fishing harbour does it 20:14:30 <krinn> town produce trash -> incinerator 20:14:39 <andythenorth> krinn: it's borin 20:14:41 <andythenorth> +g 20:14:44 <drac_boy> andythenorth ah heh...I was thinking of a harbour in general but guess you got me beat to that idea :) 20:14:44 <andythenorth> dunno why 20:14:52 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 20:15:23 <andythenorth> krinn: http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=everything#incinerator 20:15:55 <krinn> why deprecated ? 20:16:03 <andythenorth> boring 20:16:14 <andythenorth> does nothing for gameplay 20:16:27 <andythenorth> basically there are 32 cargos, and 'trash' is not worth a slot 20:16:32 <andythenorth> other things are more interesting 20:16:50 <drac_boy> andythenorth do you think that this isn't a bad idea: steel mill...accepts coal+ore ... it'll work fine with ore alone ... adding coal would only upper the output ... but if you keep sending coal to it nonstop and little or no ore it'll eventually block off any further coal input? 20:17:06 <andythenorth> drac_boy: try it and see 20:17:11 <drac_boy> theres no limit on the ore... but as for the coal side itself I'm having to think a bit more about that 20:17:13 <Pikka> tourists, andythenorth! 20:17:35 <drac_boy> at least that would be a lot better than the irriating uksi and ecs behaviours (no offense meant please ok pikka?) 20:17:37 <andythenorth> yes, because tourists are not passengers! 20:17:39 <krinn> maybe restrict incinerator distance from town 20:17:53 <andythenorth> tourists are Special Passengers! 20:17:56 <andythenorth> like Blue Coal! 20:17:58 <drac_boy> heh 20:18:00 <andythenorth> or Red Cows! 20:18:34 <krinn> eheh what are tourists? passengers that pay 2x everything 20:18:42 <andythenorth> Pikka: when are you adding 1st class coaches to UKRS? 20:19:28 <Pikka> after I add smoking and non-smoking passengers 20:19:34 <drac_boy> andythenorth considering that the real things needed to make glass would be difficult to add tot an industry grf ... do you think that just sand alone would be enough or should it be sand plus a second something else? (don't suggest water if you'll mind, I'm assuming industries have their own city supply pipes heh) 20:19:44 <andythenorth> Pikka: but think of the realism! 20:19:54 <Pikka> *thinks* 20:19:57 <drac_boy> heh 20:20:03 <andythenorth> you could enforce that train formations *must* be accurate for that particular day and route 20:20:14 <andythenorth> HSTs *must* be 4+1+2 20:20:22 <andythenorth> you could render BROS invalid! 20:20:57 <andythenorth> drac_boy: go play FIRS, and/or read the dev thread, and you'll discover what I think of industries 20:21:03 <andythenorth> and the process I got there via :P 20:21:05 <krinn> andythenorth, so what? i then couldn't make a train for smokers or cound't make one non smokers only ? 20:21:35 <andythenorth> krinn: or you could smoke a train 20:21:43 <andythenorth> newgrf smoke! 20:22:05 <andythenorth> Pikka: ^ that is a significantly easier project, if roadtypes got boring 20:24:06 <drac_boy> andythenorth theres only one small problem with your suggestion: the readme points to only ottd ^_^ 20:24:20 <andythenorth> ? 20:24:28 <drac_boy> krinn just don't forget to put the smokers up front closer to the steam locomotive :p 20:24:30 <drac_boy> heh 20:24:38 <andythenorth> only ottd is a problem because...? 20:25:12 * drac_boy throws another of the patch at andythenorth 20:25:13 <drac_boy> :p 20:25:17 <andythenorth> ? 20:25:37 <Wolf01> 'night 20:25:41 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host139-62-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:25:46 <Pikka> because you can't get the wood you know 20:25:56 <drac_boy> andythenorth..you know..that other game :) 20:26:06 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7dbe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:12 <peter1138> simutrans? 20:26:18 <andythenorth> oh that one 20:26:22 <andythenorth> I've heard of that 20:26:33 <andythenorth> it has some insane system of variable graphic sizes 20:26:33 <drac_boy> peter1138 thats not a patch :) 20:26:42 <drac_boy> but never mind 20:26:47 <andythenorth> simutrans has cargo destinations too 20:26:55 <andythenorth> drac_boy: you can't play ottd? 20:27:02 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 20:27:04 <andythenorth> your platform is supported only by ttdp? 20:28:26 *** Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl21-140-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:28:50 *** Mek__ is now known as Mek 20:28:52 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I guess that's the way basically everyone starts 20:30:58 <drac_boy> andythenorth yeah pretty much....unless someone gets that sidelined ottd-dos build started again but that seem unlikely :) 20:31:38 *** Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl21-140-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd 20:31:41 <Rubidium> drac_boy: that build still builds 20:31:43 <andythenorth> how rare 20:31:58 <drac_boy> Rubidium really? 20:32:00 <andythenorth> it's an intriguing requirement 20:32:06 <andythenorth> how will you draw your pixels in dos? 20:32:17 <peter1138> deluxe paint? :D 20:32:17 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-21-74.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 20:32:20 <drac_boy> andythenorth I don't ... dos is actually a guest os btw 20:32:40 <drac_boy> ;) 20:33:19 <planetmaker> so he runs neither Solaris, *BSD, Windows*, *Linux*, OSX > 10.3 20:33:48 <drac_boy> andythenorth the pixels are coming from photoshop just fyi 20:33:53 <krinn> must be running OS/2 20:33:53 <peter1138> basically dragonhorsedonkeypanthersheepsnakekoalaboychild likes ttdpatch 20:34:04 <andythenorth> well that's fine 20:34:09 <andythenorth> he's in a gang of 4 now 20:34:16 <planetmaker> krinn: there it works, too. I forgot 20:34:24 <krinn> :D 20:34:34 <planetmaker> at least that's my latest info. orudge will know better. 20:34:50 *** Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl21-140-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [] 20:34:59 <drac_boy> andythenorth the funny thing is I doubted it would even work but I can forward ethernet tcp/ip into dos .. so it does have some resemble of working ftp :p 20:35:02 <peter1138> and he wants to run openttd under dos as a guest os because that places a silly restriction on the availability of openttd for his platform 20:35:04 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 20:35:29 <drac_boy> usually use Fetch and then just copy the files to the shared folder for the emulator tho 20:35:40 <peter1138> what are you running dos on? 20:35:53 <drac_boy> macos. via vpc 20:36:30 <Rubidium> the dos build even seems to work (excl. network) 20:36:57 <peter1138> it's too easy to just run openttd under macos 20:37:18 <valhallasw> it's not real ttd if it's not under dos! 20:37:21 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-27-135.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:38:15 <drac_boy> peter1138 well I don't see any means to, and even Symantec C++ doesn't quite like the source 20:38:22 <planetmaker> peter1138: macos might indeed pose a big challenge. macos != OSX 20:38:24 <andythenorth> drac_boy: so you're going to create a (large) set, in TTDP 20:38:31 <andythenorth> which is a dead project 20:38:34 <andythenorth> unmaintained 20:38:42 <andythenorth> everybody working on it left 20:38:49 <andythenorth> it has provably fewer useful features 20:38:50 <drac_boy> andythenorth not that large actually. the rail list is <40 locomotives and <10 wagons 20:39:01 <andythenorth> but you're doing an industry chain too? 20:39:28 <drac_boy> only a small one...about 26 industries and 12 slots 20:39:38 <drac_boy> cargo slots* 20:39:54 <andythenorth> big enough 20:40:18 <drac_boy> not really..I could had doubled it if I wanted to but thats getting too complex for a 'basic industry' tho :) 20:40:32 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-63-149.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:40:46 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-63-149.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 20:41:36 <drac_boy> anyhow going release a useable grf next month or two. maybe screenshots earlier tho ^_^ 20:41:59 <andythenorth> and you prefer playing TTDP? 20:42:01 <andythenorth> :) 20:42:11 <andythenorth> is it the custom bridgeheads by any chance? 20:43:46 * FLHerne fiddles with More Heightlevels 20:43:47 <drac_boy> not much of any features tbh 20:43:58 <Fori> A "load 75% or more" command would be nice ^^ 20:44:08 <drac_boy> although programmable signals was one but I noticed that its in chrill's patch tho 20:44:24 <andythenorth> so why the DOS / VirtualPC setup? 20:44:37 <FLHerne> I think I did something wrong - the void has gone a very nice shade of pink :-( 20:44:39 <drac_boy> fori I think I once suggested some sort of 0-100% loading option in the schedule dialog in steps of tens 20:44:47 <drac_boy> not sure what anyone else really think of it 20:44:56 <Fori> What do you think about it? 20:45:50 <drac_boy> andythenorth because the only native version for macos was an old pre-deluxe one for japan. I doubt that it would be possible to get newgrfs working on it so thats a dead end for sure :) 20:45:53 <drac_boy> fori I could use it 20:46:23 <andythenorth> you have OS 9 or something? 20:46:45 <drac_boy> andythenorth yeah 20:46:49 <andythenorth> k 20:47:10 <drac_boy> fori I think the partial load feature could help with pax trains..not leaving empty but not have to wait for a full load on a long train tho 20:47:22 <drac_boy> hmm probably planes too 20:47:44 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Just run linux on your old hardware, then OTTD on that :P 20:47:52 <FLHerne> Worked for me :D 20:48:11 <planetmaker> :-) 20:48:21 <drac_boy> FLHerne problem would be no software compactibility... plus you actually need to dualboot with macos due to firmware issues with anything thats below the G4 20:48:38 <drac_boy> I do have YDL on one of the noninternet mac tho 20:49:40 <FLHerne> Yes, I know the firmware's a pain. I ran Chill's PP on my PB1400, took about 6 hours to compile :P 20:50:32 <drac_boy> FLHerne heh 20:50:43 <FLHerne> Needed this project's kernel, the standard one doesn't work - http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net/ 20:50:57 <drac_boy> that makes me thinking..did ottd ever supported rails over tunnel portals? 20:51:23 <peter1138> oh right, so you're having to emulate an x86 cpu as well 20:51:27 <peter1138> that must be... slow 20:51:48 <FLHerne> ALso, any ideas on my pink background? It looks rather silly, and I'm not quite sure how it happened :-( 20:51:48 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D6E2.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 20:52:34 <drac_boy> peter1138 for windows it can be but anything dos based doesn't really care because its already rather 'fast' for them 20:52:49 <FLHerne> No, OTTD compiles for PPC ok 20:52:55 <Rubidium> FLHerne: dos vs window palette 20:53:03 <krinn> can't you just install a linux for ppc and play openttd? 20:53:18 <drac_boy> FLHerne there is two small strips in the palette that is different between dos and windows afaik 20:53:36 <drac_boy> one was that dos omitted the water strip present in win ... forgot what the second one was 20:53:55 <drac_boy> I know that the win palette had a pink strip named 'Win API' I think 20:54:11 <FLHerne> krinn: That's what I'm doing, still slow though, and the stable linux kernels don't work. OTTD at 133MHz is painful 20:54:32 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D6E2.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:39 <FLHerne> Rubidium: How do I change that then? Pallettes are irritating 20:55:38 <Rubidium> I reckon the patch comes with an extra sprite, doesn't it? 20:55:44 <krinn> FLHerne, well, what would you expect from such an old cpu... i'm not aware of any problem with kernel and ppc, but i'm not aware of ppc world 20:55:48 <Rubidium> s/sprite/grf/ 20:56:40 <FLHerne> Rubidium: It does, yes. So it's using the wrong pallette and coming out pink instead of black? 20:56:47 <Rubidium> exactly 20:57:29 <FLHerne> krinn: Linux on PPC is Ok, the problem is nubus expansion slots, due to them being totally non-standard 20:57:30 <Rubidium> so you need to convert that GRF to the other palette, or mess with the code so the 'right' palette is chosen 20:58:08 <drac_boy> Rubidium grfcodec could deal with decode+encode into alternative palette didn't it? 20:58:08 <FLHerne> Rubidium: thanks. I'll go and look at the wiki for palette conversion then :D 20:58:49 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:58:52 <Rubidium> drac_boy: it could 20:59:23 <Rubidium> although I'm still not understanding why the extra sprite is needed 20:59:24 <xiong> drac_boy, you may be the last OS 9 guy in the room. I used to be the last OS 9 guy and I still have a beige G3 in running condition. 20:59:45 * drac_boy gives xiong a spare Macpose game cd? :) 20:59:47 <drac_boy> heh 21:00:16 <Rubidium> why do freeform edges work now, but don't they work correctly when having more heightlevels? That really smells like a bug in the heightlevels patch where the extra sprite is just an ugly workaround 21:00:30 <xiong> I have some Tropico! 21:00:50 <FLHerne> Beige G3s are nasty - I intend to dispose of mine '< 21:01:02 <andythenorth> we sprayed ours blue 21:01:08 <andythenorth> and then sold it for too much money 21:01:12 <andythenorth> how rate 21:01:17 <planetmaker> lol, really? :-) 21:01:18 <andythenorth> rare /s :P 21:01:26 <xiong> Ship it to me, FLHerne; I'll pay the freight. I might need the spare someday. 21:01:32 <andythenorth> we sold it for £200 or so 21:02:01 <andythenorth> we bought it for £1200 and it paid back in about a year :P 21:02:07 <FLHerne> It's one of the flat desktop ones - even worse than the towers :| 21:02:21 <andythenorth> mmm...but the internals of the case are tidy 21:02:32 <andythenorth> and you get a proper keyboard 21:02:34 <xiong> The internals are very tidy indeed. 21:02:40 <NGC3982> < xiong> I have some Tropico! 21:02:42 <NGC3982> the game? 21:02:45 <FLHerne> Not as good as the turquoise G4s :D 21:02:47 <andythenorth> why is everyone suddenly a beige G3 owner? 21:02:48 <xiong> Yes, NGC3982. 21:02:59 <NGC3982> xiong: sweet jesus and mary joseph. 21:03:02 <FLHerne> Little case-flopping open catches are nice 21:03:03 <NGC3982> that is a fantastic game 21:03:09 <NGC3982> forgotten about it completely 21:03:16 <andythenorth> Open Tropico! 21:03:17 * NGC3982 downloads in an instant. 21:03:21 * andythenorth never played it 21:03:28 <andythenorth> is there an OS X version available? 21:03:37 * andythenorth likes Sid Meier 21:03:39 <NGC3982> doesnt look like it 21:03:40 * drac_boy actually prefers desktop form myself 21:03:52 <drac_boy> would had rather ordered the DT over the MT if I was ever shopping around back then 21:03:54 <NGC3982> i dont think i ever played tropico after the first game 21:03:55 <xiong> I will participate in OpenTropico only if brothels are added. 21:04:49 <drac_boy> andythenorth btw I don't know if it was on purpose or not but there are quite a number of new libs and softwares you can get binary for (or just compile yourself) on macos ... ghostscript comes to mind for one 21:05:06 <NGC3982> xiong: well, let's get cracking then, ey. 21:05:09 <andythenorth> Tropico 3 works on 10.6.8 21:05:10 <andythenorth> lucky me 21:05:24 <andythenorth> expect to not see me for a while :P 21:05:45 <krinn> there's a 4 you know ? 21:05:55 * NGC3982 misses tropico 1. 21:06:29 <NGC3982> tropico 4 looks nice, but thats not what i want from a game. 21:06:46 <NGC3982> surely, most of us dont in the premisses of this channel. 21:06:48 <NGC3982> :) 21:07:03 *** Mek [~quassel@marijnalexwedding.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:05 * krinn wonders who is going to paint his screen with red and green lines to play space invaders like the real arcade now 21:07:14 * andythenorth is going to bed 21:07:23 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 21:07:32 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BA12.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:34 <NGC3982> :( 21:07:46 <drac_boy> krinn maybe you should try some real vector games? I dunno :) 21:07:51 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-63-149.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:08:17 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-63-149.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 21:08:22 <krinn> asteroid 3D ! 21:09:00 <krinn> i'm going to bed, i feel too old now 21:09:39 *** krinn [~krinn@166.210.73.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:11:32 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:39 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 21:15:56 <Fori> NGC, tropico 1 was so nice... 21:15:57 <Fori> :) 21:16:28 <Fori> Most of game series get destroyed by "improvements". 21:18:49 <Nat_aS> Ehh, in general I agree with you, but I find Tropico 1 to be unplayable 21:18:54 <Nat_aS> 3 and 4 are the best 21:19:08 <Nat_aS> although 4 made the right choice by not changing much from 3 21:19:17 <Nat_aS> sometimes you can't even tell the diffrence from screenshots 21:19:19 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:35 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 21:19:35 <Fori> Well. Nat_aS the traffic system is a good idea but completely broken ^^ 21:19:49 <Nat_aS> I never had a problem with traffic 21:20:11 <Nat_aS> i mean my streets get crowded, but I've never had it effect my island badly 21:20:46 <Fori> Yeah. 21:22:28 <Terkhen> good night 21:22:39 <Fori> n8 21:22:44 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 21:23:10 <Fori> Damn all those devs all blaming piracy for not well selling games -.- 21:23:16 <Fori> It's about DRM and GOOD games. 21:23:19 <Fori> Don't they get that? 21:23:32 <Fori> Or are they aware and the rest is just PR ? 21:23:53 <Fori> I'd pay for OpenTTD if it wasn't free. (I think I'll make a donation) 21:24:01 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-63-149.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:34:32 <Rubidium> OpenTTD is a good example that without DRM on good games you can't rake in millions 21:36:06 *** Mek [~quassel@marijnalexwedding.com] has joined #openttd 21:39:41 <peter1138> Minecraft is a good example that without DRM on good games you can rake in millions 21:40:06 *** Mek [~quassel@marijnalexwedding.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:34 *** Mek [~quassel@marijnalexwedding.com] has joined #openttd 21:40:58 <glx> there is a kind of DRM in minecraft ;) 21:41:13 <peter1138> centralised login, true 21:42:22 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:36 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 21:47:07 <ToxicFrog> A better example is GOG. 21:47:20 <peter1138> are they raking in millions? 21:48:35 <ToxicFrog> They were as of their last report, yes. 21:48:45 <ToxicFrog> And are signing new publishers at a steady rate - they just got Ubisoft on board. 21:50:23 <MNIM> skyrim doesn't have a drm if Im not mistaken. 21:51:29 <ToxicFrog> It does; it's Steamworks. 21:51:47 <MNIM> ..wait it has ste-oh yeah. piiiirated it. 21:51:48 <MNIM> >.> 21:51:49 <__ln__> But OpenTTD does have DRM. It won't even start without graphics files. 21:51:50 <MNIM> <.< 21:52:05 <drac_boy> __ln__ you not heard of "go get opengfx" :p 21:52:29 <Fori> MNIM, I did first. But then thought "Meh, you cannot buy Skyrim"... 21:52:29 <Fori> :D 21:52:52 <ToxicFrog> Rubidium: really, what openTTD is demonstrating right now is "freeware games don't make millions". No, really? 21:52:52 <MNIM> what? 21:53:06 <__ln__> drac_boy: If the bananas server or whatever is taken offline, then one can't get the opengfx and the game won't start. 21:53:12 <Fori> Was talking about pirating Skyrim, MNIM 21:53:20 <ToxicFrog> (and what it was demonstrating before opengfx was "games that are no longer sold don't make millions, but people are still willing to pirate them". This isn't surprising either, in either direction.) 21:53:30 <ToxicFrog> (see also: the profusion of abandonware sites) 21:53:38 <MNIM> I got that, fori, but your grammar makes no sense on me 21:53:40 <drac_boy> __ln__ who said it was on bananas? 21:53:44 <Fori> Oh, sorry. 21:53:47 <Fori> I'm German. 21:54:00 <MNIM> actually, __ln__, nope :P it's included in the ubuntu repos at least 21:54:18 <__ln__> drac_boy: I don't know where the Windows installer gets it from, but that's irrelevant. 21:54:35 <drac_boy> __ln__ where did you download your windows installer? there's a nearby url that says 'opengfx' 21:54:42 <drac_boy> thats all I can say about that :) 21:54:59 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-106-21-132.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]] 21:55:08 <__ln__> MNIM: Ubuntu repos can be taken offline; even if not, using Ubuntu repos usually requires an Internet connection. 21:55:45 <ToxicFrog> __ln__: calling this "DRM" is a stretch 21:55:54 <ToxicFrog> Once you have the files downloaded, that's all you need 21:56:01 <Fori> True, Toxicfrog. 21:56:59 <ToxicFrog> By that definition, everything GOG releases "DRM-free" actually has DRM, because you have to actually download the game before you can play it. 21:57:09 <drac_boy> yeah I had to check, click 'download openttd' ... and conventionally the opengfx url is located before the download table 21:57:17 <Fori> That definition makes no sense to me. 21:57:28 <Fori> Cause if you can copy the files once you downloaded them there's no DRM. 21:57:37 <Fori> And launch without any LogIn and stuff. 21:57:43 <ToxicFrog> Or, for a more similar comparison, Marathon Aleph-One, which has seperate downloads for the game engine and game data. 21:58:15 <ToxicFrog> (although in that case the game data is actually the original game data, released as freeware by the developer, rather than a cleanroom replacement for it) 21:58:31 <MNIM> well yeah. anyway, Imma agree with the frog here, that's a bit farfetched 21:58:58 <Fori> When I heard SimCity uses Origin I was like :( 21:59:01 <Fori> Or more.. ;( 21:59:37 <Zuu> In 1.2, isn't there a dialog showing that asks to download OpenGFX if no data can be found? 21:59:56 <Fori> Yes it is. 22:00:05 <Fori> Well. At least the was for me ^^ 22:00:10 <Fori> *there 22:00:28 <Zuu> It worked for me when I tried it when it was introduced in trunk. 22:00:52 <glx> maybe not for OSX ;) 22:01:15 <Rubidium> glx: s/maybe/definitely/ 22:01:17 <Zuu> So its a DRM that you need Linux or Windows? ;-) 22:01:22 <Fori> xD 22:01:39 <Fori> Guys, I'm off, see ya tomorrow. 22:01:45 <drac_boy> bye fori 22:01:45 <glx> it's because apple deprecation policy 22:01:59 <Rubidium> Zuu: you also require freetype (and on Linux fontconfig) 22:02:07 *** Fori [4e33b2b6@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: (Tomorrow FIRS)] 22:02:32 <Rubidium> yeah, officially we only "support" 10.3.9, 10.4.x and 10.5.x 22:02:44 <glx> and it's enough pain 22:03:08 <Rubidium> but effectively there's really no support at all 22:03:14 <glx> rewrite OSX port for each new OSX version is not nice 22:06:06 <drac_boy> glx that was one thing i never understood apple for, treating each version as completely different os compared to everyone else 22:06:48 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@85.151.142.17] has quit [Quit: zzz] 22:07:04 <glx> drac_boy: that's a good thing for paid software ;) 22:07:14 <drac_boy> not so much for most of everyone else :P 22:09:45 <FLHerne> Goodnight everyone 22:09:52 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 22:10:20 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:31 *** goodger [~ben@94-30-43-248.xdsl.murphx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:11:04 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 22:13:25 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.100.24] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:22:56 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 22:45:42 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-059-060.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 22:48:15 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1176111076.dsl.bell.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 22:50:58 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 22:57:12 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:00:01 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 23:32:14 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd