Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:27:31 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:33:40 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:46:16 *** JezK [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has joined #openttd 00:55:18 *** DDR [~David@S0106001f16aa47bc.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 01:08:11 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 01:20:48 *** DDR [~David@S0106001f16aa47bc.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:50:10 *** gnu_jj [~quassel@ipbcc184bc.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:51:14 *** gnu_jj [~quassel@ipbcc184bc.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #openttd 02:30:39 *** mntasauri [~motesorri@192.73.232.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:38:16 *** mntasauri [~motesorri@192.73.232.107] has joined #openttd 02:40:43 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54faa7-102.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:41:13 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54faa7-102.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 02:49:05 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:52:51 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:15:39 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54faa7-102.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 03:26:38 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54faa7-102.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 03:30:11 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 03:30:18 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 03:36:44 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54faa7-102.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:37:22 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54faa7-102.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 03:47:26 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54faa7-102.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:54:32 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC66E70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 04:56:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC67A58.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 05:20:47 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54faa7-102.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 05:40:15 <supermop> hello 05:43:33 <Flygon_> Yoooo 05:43:35 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon 06:05:57 <supermop> think i'll get a beer 06:14:50 <Supercheese> always a sensible plan 06:41:29 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 06:41:42 <andythenorth> o/ 06:42:21 <Supercheese> trams? 06:44:42 <andythenorth> :( 06:46:03 <supermop> beer too warm 06:48:38 <supermop> bourbon in stead i guess 06:51:06 <andythenorth> trams 06:51:11 <andythenorth> are bigger than narrow gauge trains 06:51:13 <andythenorth> it turns out 06:51:22 <andythenorth> Pikka: you did a tramz trackz grf? 06:51:30 <supermop> the ones here are standard gauge 06:52:18 <supermop> andy which brio wagon would you carry cotton candy in? 06:55:54 <andythenorth> supermop: there is a red version of these: http://www.brio.net/Products/railway/trainswagonsvehicles/gold-train 06:56:48 <supermop> not abstract enough looking 06:57:10 <supermop> http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/261858074469-0-1/s-l1000.jpg 07:00:10 <supermop> or the green thing with the haybales? http://www.woodenrailway.info/resources/rarebrio/trucksandcars.jpg 07:02:44 <andythenorth> dunno :) 07:02:54 <andythenorth> all the brio we have is modern and detailed 07:03:11 <andythenorth> I donât know much about it beyond that :) 07:04:06 <supermop> ah 07:05:45 <supermop> i feel like i should do a separate wagon for each cargo 07:06:27 <supermop> as the base set wagons are not refittable, they should all look different? 07:07:01 <Supercheese> not necessarily 07:07:26 <Supercheese> within the same climate perhaps 07:08:44 <supermop> only doing toyland 07:08:47 <supermop> for now 07:10:18 <Supercheese> right 07:10:38 <supermop> but idk i feel like separate hoppers are sort of silly 07:11:17 <andythenorth> if youâre only supporting original toyland cargos, then do one wagon per type 07:11:22 <andythenorth> gameplay is better without refits 07:11:33 <supermop> static grf 07:11:44 <supermop> but should the different wagons look the same 07:12:00 <andythenorth> do you have 2nd company colour available? 07:12:14 <supermop> does baseset? 07:12:17 <andythenorth> dunno ) 07:12:18 <andythenorth> :P 07:12:32 <supermop> never seen it 07:12:34 <andythenorth> keep the gestalt, adjust the colourway 07:13:06 <supermop> andy the design school professor 07:14:16 * andythenorth keeps it under his hat 07:15:20 <supermop> so ogfx+ hopper wagon refits to three cargos 07:15:36 <supermop> so i assume that means i should have three hoppers 07:16:09 <supermop> idk 07:16:29 <supermop> sugar in cubes or loose? 07:17:17 <supermop> toffee ??? 07:17:55 <Supercheese> toffee is bulk 07:17:58 <Supercheese> since it's quarried 07:18:20 <supermop> yeah but is it in like in chunks? 07:18:33 <supermop> or big blocks 07:18:45 <Supercheese> take your pick 07:18:54 <Supercheese> although the chunks appear fairly large IIRC 07:19:06 <supermop> or sort of slow flowing sticky mass? 07:20:09 <supermop> i feel like cotton candy should be in bales not a pile in a hopper 07:22:18 <supermop> should US english call fizzy drinks soda 07:23:19 <supermop> in tankers, barrels on flatbeds, of in boxcars? 07:24:08 <Pikka> hallo 07:24:28 <Pikka> andythenorth, I drew the tramtracks that are in the base set(s)... 07:25:05 * andythenorth is wondering about wider tramtracks 07:25:09 <andythenorth> might be a non-thing 07:25:14 <Pikka> they do need to be narrower than the rail tracks IMO 07:25:27 <Pikka> whether they should be the same as narrow gauge... depends how narrow your narrow gauge is 07:26:20 <andythenorth> turns out trams have a higher axle load than trains in my grf :P 07:26:28 <andythenorth> but letâs not ever mention axle load ever again 07:26:31 <andythenorth> ever 07:46:25 <supermop> need to get rid of these prints i made 07:49:10 <supermop> brio would really benefit from curvy tracks 08:09:13 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 08:12:33 *** JezK [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16:53 <Supercheese> It was discussed changing Fizzy Drinks to Soda for US English, but it's Toyland and it's supposed to sound very silly, and Fizzy Drinks is extremely silly 08:17:17 <Supercheese> that sentence is very awkward, but you get what I mean 08:21:02 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 08:22:07 <andythenorth> Soda is silly :P 08:22:16 <Supercheese> Coke is also silly, but eh 08:22:30 <Supercheese> different parts of the country have completely different ideas what the stuff should be called 08:22:36 *** supermop_ [~supermop@d210-49-164-110.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 08:22:46 <Supercheese> However, everyone thinks Fizzy Drinks is ridiculous, so therefore it fits Toyland well 08:23:10 <V453000> one dude on our server changed nick to Varoufakis ... 08:25:51 <^Spike^> V did the econmony of our game go to hell now? :) 08:27:46 <V453000> kind of 08:30:04 *** supermop [~supermop@d210-49-164-110.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:38:31 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 08:40:28 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:54:35 *** wicope [~wicope@0001fd8a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 09:08:33 <supermop_> can a static grf change text strings? 09:10:20 <peter1138> Soda is a stupid name for fizzy drinks 09:25:39 <supermop_> better than pop 09:26:34 <supermop_> but the idea wasn't for a grf to change fizzy drink to soda, but to change plastic flatcar to plastic tanker or something 09:27:00 <supermop_> or candy boxcar to candy gondola 09:27:30 <supermop_> i think candy wagon should be the classic brio open wagon with a single swedish fish on it 09:27:57 <supermop_> how one makes a swedish fish from toffee i do not know 09:38:52 <supermop_> what candy can be made from cotton candy anyway 09:47:49 <supermop_> Burboun and stout leads to indignant forum posts 09:48:11 *** wicope [~wicope@0001fd8a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:53 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@a392.ip16.netikka.fi] has joined #openttd 10:22:14 *** wicope [~wicope@0001fd8a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 11:06:13 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 11:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: my guess is "yes", but why would you need your grf to be static, anyway? 11:19:01 *** wicope [~wicope@0001fd8a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38:13 *** Pikka [~Octomom@203-206-248-154.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:05 *** a_sad_dude [~virtuall@159.148.61.18] has joined #openttd 12:26:59 *** Myhorta[1] [~Myhorta@10.87.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #openttd 12:33:31 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd 12:34:41 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:42:55 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:51:16 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 14:29:49 *** supermop_ [~supermop@d210-49-164-110.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:40:37 <Terkhen> hello 14:53:37 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 14:53:40 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 15:02:09 *** a_sad_dude [~virtuall@159.148.61.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:02:14 *** shirish [~quassel@117.222.1.151] has joined #openttd 15:05:50 *** jottyfan [~jottyfan@p54B7E105.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:18:10 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.125.243] has joined #openttd 15:19:45 *** shirish__ [~quassel@117.214.125.168] has joined #openttd 15:24:05 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:26:15 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.125.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:29:03 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6D588.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 15:30:34 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC67A58.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:48 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC67A58.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:35:25 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 15:44:39 *** wicope [~wicope@0001fd8a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 15:54:31 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:58:03 *** a_sad_dude [~virtuall@88.135.143.19] has joined #openttd 15:59:59 *** TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 16:11:12 *** shirish [~quassel@117.195.125.50] has joined #openttd 16:17:34 *** shirish__ [~quassel@117.214.125.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:19:49 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:37:38 *** DDR [~David@S0106001f16aa47bc.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 16:51:33 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:51:36 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:01:20 *** wicope [~wicope@0001fd8a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:02 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:33:24 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x5f742222.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 17:36:29 *** Belugas [~belugas@00011985.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:36:29 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has joined #openttd 17:36:32 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 17:37:17 *** snorre [~snorre@89.9.171.125] has joined #openttd 17:37:18 *** a_sad_dude [~virtuall@88.135.143.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:39:03 *** snorre_ [~snorre@89.9.171.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:45:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27327 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-07-09 19:45:08 +0200 ) 17:45:18 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:19 <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093 17:46:50 *** Pensacola [~quassel@c80094.upc-c.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 18:08:34 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:57 *** shirish [~quassel@117.195.99.168] has joined #openttd 18:12:05 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:12:20 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 18:16:57 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 18:17:18 *** Belugas [~belugas@00011985.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:17:20 <andythenorth> o/ 18:17:41 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 18:17:53 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has joined #openttd 18:17:56 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 18:23:31 *** a_sad_dude [~virtuall@159.148.61.18] has joined #openttd 18:28:27 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.99.179] has joined #openttd 18:30:50 *** shirish__ [~quassel@117.195.103.204] has joined #openttd 18:35:01 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18269.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 18:35:09 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:37:54 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.99.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:44:37 <andythenorth> GS really should be allowed to communicate with NewGRF 18:44:42 <andythenorth> really really 18:44:49 <andythenorth> just to see what happens mostly 18:48:45 *** shirish [~quassel@117.195.114.239] has joined #openttd 18:49:40 <Alberth> being able to do some requests would be useful imho 18:50:26 <Alberth> but I wonder if you should really hook into industries 18:50:40 <Alberth> eg payment may be much more interesting 18:51:39 <andythenorth> âhook intoâ is unlikely tbh 18:51:50 <andythenorth> but there is already a defined API for message passing 18:52:07 <andythenorth> and defined messages 18:52:29 <andythenorth> expose that to GS 18:53:04 <Alberth> where is that? 18:54:07 * andythenorth finds it 18:54:19 *** shirish__ [~quassel@117.195.103.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:54:23 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Random_production_change_.2829.29 18:54:28 <andythenorth> and the associated monthly change 18:54:59 <andythenorth> it would be better to extend it so the newgrf could detect if it was a GS or OpenTTD triggering the event 18:55:30 <andythenorth> there is no meaningful further control a GS could provide beyond production + closure 18:56:58 <andythenorth> certainly a GS canât do anything like processing calculations, they run far too often 18:57:05 <andythenorth> nor tile animation etc 18:57:10 <andythenorth> totally inappropriate :) 18:57:33 <frosch123> so you want a gs event callback :) 18:57:38 <andythenorth> maybe 18:57:52 <andythenorth> a newgrf industry could be coded so that it can _optionally_ listen to GS events 18:58:25 <andythenorth> leaving the actual details in the hands of the newgrf, but allow GS to set the general direction more / less, stop / start, close 18:58:48 <andythenorth> similarly GS could control intro and expiry dates of a vehicle newgrf, via a technology level or such 18:59:03 <andythenorth> but it couldnât set speeds and so on 18:59:47 <andythenorth> technology level would also solve every daylength justification Iâve seen, except realism freaks :P 19:03:20 <andythenorth> oops 19:03:22 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 19:03:27 * andythenorth monologing again :( 19:03:30 * andythenorth must stop 19:03:38 <andythenorth> soory 19:03:58 <Zuu> Hello 19:04:39 <Zuu> Too many threads about GS at the forum lately. :-) 19:05:02 <andythenorth> lo Zuu 19:08:11 <Zuu> GS could have a callback in info.nut which get called before the game start with a list of NewGRFs so it can veto and pass along a text message. While a bit constraint perhaps, GSes are distributed in their source form, so users who disagree could always hack the GS to bypass it. 19:09:28 <Zuu> It could then when game starts still have no knowledge about what GRFs is in the game if we wish. 19:10:03 <andythenorth> I donât think it needs knowledge :) 19:10:22 <andythenorth> I have thought about this a bit, a GS tied to specific newgrfs is quite brittle 19:10:45 <andythenorth> for scripted scenarios it would make sense, but eh, whoâs making those? o_O 19:11:09 <Zuu> There is already one city builder GS targeting FIRS. IIRC 19:12:14 <Zuu> Well, for cross domain logic like the forum guy, it could make sense. 19:12:35 <andythenorth> does the city build rely on specific cargos? 19:14:10 <Alberth> doesn't it have translation tables for cargoes of industry grfs? 19:14:27 <Zuu> Found the GS: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=69189 19:16:20 <Zuu> A GS made for a specific industry set can provide cargo specific settings labeled by cargo in the NewGRF. If you don't know how many cargos there will be and which cargos it will have, it is a bit hard to do per-cargo specific settings for the GS. 19:16:28 <andythenorth> so that GS doesnât need FIRS, just the cargos 19:16:53 <andythenorth> but it does need all of the right cargos 19:17:00 <Zuu> Probably yes 19:17:51 <andythenorth> Zuu: I put some stuff in just before you joined btw (see the logs?) 19:18:03 <Zuu> I'll look it up 19:18:27 <andythenorth> hmm 19:18:41 <andythenorth> the âconquer the westâ GS should build primary industries on the frontier 19:18:52 <andythenorth> then towns and secondary industries on the newly settled lands 19:20:00 <Zuu> Looks like your monolog is sensible 19:20:09 <andythenorth> :P 19:20:42 <andythenorth> it doesnât need any newgrf spec change if done dirty 19:20:53 <andythenorth> a secondary industry can still listen to the production change cb for example 19:21:20 <andythenorth> so if we wanted to stop / start production, set the production multiplier to a certain value 19:21:30 <andythenorth> FIRS could publish which values it will listen to 19:22:00 <Zuu> publish as via an API or publish as in a manual? 19:22:37 <andythenorth> manual http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html 19:22:48 <andythenorth> but that is generated from FIRS source directly 19:23:01 <andythenorth> it would be a convention 19:23:43 <Zuu> So usually NewGRF set production multiplier, but you propose to allow GS to tap in and set it instead? 19:23:58 <andythenorth> OpenTTD sets it 19:24:14 <andythenorth> newgrf chooses to reset it (or not use it) 19:24:37 <Zuu> So it is read only to newgrf? 19:24:44 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Random_production_change_.2829.29 19:24:57 <andythenorth> if the newgrf uses value 04, then it does whatever OpenTTD wants 19:25:17 <andythenorth> as a nice to have, set a bit to say that a GS set the value, not OpenTTD 19:26:25 <andythenorth> because I donât like OpenTTDâs industry handling so I ignore it, but would not want to stop a GS author providing a different approach 19:26:26 <Zuu> Yeah that would probably be nice. A sort of flag to the NewGRF that perhaps the GS has a plan why it ask you to do this. :-) 19:26:51 <andythenorth> so, e.g. in the case of FIRS primary industry, the supplies mechanic would still operate 19:27:01 <andythenorth> so youâd get 2x or 4x base production if supplies are delivered 19:27:10 <andythenorth> but the GS determines the base production 19:27:28 <andythenorth> itâs a separation of concerns that follows roughly how the game already is structured 19:27:59 <andythenorth> GS has no role trying to understand or manipulate supplies, thatâs way too complex 19:29:01 <Zuu> So what GS get is something similar to the production change cheat? 19:29:11 <andythenorth> yes 19:29:34 <andythenorth> which requires no newgrf spec change, unless we want to add a nice-to-have âthis is GS' flag 19:30:35 <andythenorth> if author(s) then wanted to write a closely integrated GS/industry newgrf, they could 19:30:44 <andythenorth> using the production cb as message passing 19:30:51 <andythenorth> I wouldnât bother, but eh 19:31:08 <andythenorth> newgrf industry can ask / tell nothing of the GS btw 19:31:35 <Alberth> newgrf doesn't have enough info anyway 19:32:16 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.114.205] has joined #openttd 19:32:19 <Alberth> technically it can tell the GS things by reacting to messages in a certain way 19:34:00 <andythenorth> thereâs not much that GS can read from the industry 19:34:01 <andythenorth> afaik 19:34:07 <andythenorth> production? 19:34:36 <Zuu> http://nogo.openttd.org/api/trunk/classGSIndustry.html 19:35:06 <andythenorth> yeah very little there that could be used for messaging 19:35:20 <andythenorth> I donât think messaging is needed newgrf -> GS 19:36:00 <andythenorth> the only case I can think of is âcan I close?â 19:36:11 <andythenorth> or âI want to close, is it allowed?' 19:36:36 <Alberth> terrain shape for construction 19:37:02 <Zuu> Btw, the production that GS sees is historic and not an instant response on multiplier, so it is quite slow to use for communication. 19:37:15 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 19:37:29 <andythenorth> yes 19:37:30 <Zuu> If NewGRF can control the stockpile size directly, that may be a possibility though. 19:37:40 <andythenorth> nah 19:37:47 <andythenorth> well, only by evil 19:37:50 <andythenorth> hmm 19:37:58 <andythenorth> does GS respond to OpenTTD events? 19:38:07 <Zuu> GS recieve OpenTTD events 19:38:07 <andythenorth> how would it handle the monthly / random CBs? 19:38:28 <Zuu> But it doesn't have callbacks that instantly return. Other than the save callback. 19:38:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: you need to keep in mind that passing info newgrf->gs is a lot easier than gs->newgrf 19:38:38 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:38:52 <frosch123> gs runs only on the server, so all info needs to be send as commands 19:39:04 <andythenorth> Zuu: could use a queue? 19:39:13 <andythenorth> dunno 19:39:20 <andythenorth> this is all in industry_cmd.cpp iirc 19:39:26 <andythenorth> if you want to try it, I could patch FIRS 19:39:38 <andythenorth> it might work with default industries even, not sure 19:39:41 <Zuu> GS has an event queue with events from OpenTTD. Eg. Vehicle crashed. 19:40:15 *** tycoondemon2 [~ashnohoe@D97B8CD4.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 19:40:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: would that limitation make any difference if this is just an injection to monthly / random cb? 19:40:28 <Zuu> I'm trying to fetch current source code. My hg pull doesn't work. Probably due to the mirror change some months ago. 19:40:49 <andythenorth> mine neither 19:40:52 <andythenorth> I should fix that 19:41:10 <andythenorth> itâs documented in forums iirc 19:41:16 <Zuu> yep 19:41:33 <frosch123> andythenorth: i do not see any significany in a monthly callback 19:42:00 <frosch123> anyway, the question is, at what point does the gs give information? 19:42:16 <frosch123> does it do it in advance? and does newgrf tell whether to use or discard it? 19:42:28 <frosch123> or does the newgrf trigger the gs to make decision 19:42:42 <frosch123> newgrfs decide stuff instantly 19:42:48 <andythenorth> newgrf returns 04 to the production cbs 19:42:58 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97B8CD4.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:43:05 <frosch123> gs have a hard time to pass information and being triggered from external 19:43:13 <frosch123> gs asking newgrf is a lot easier 19:43:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: what does the gs do? 19:43:51 <Zuu> NewGRF could possible expose information via properties that GS can look at if they like to. 19:44:07 <frosch123> does the gs have a function "next time the newgrf returns 04, do this"? 19:44:11 <andythenorth> no 19:44:28 <frosch123> or does the gs have to listen to newgrf returning 04, which may reach the gs months after the newgrf triggered it 19:44:42 <frosch123> read: gs have no concept of "instant decisions" 19:44:56 <andythenorth> ok, so that was my concern about this idea 19:45:03 <frosch123> they can either deposite information for newgrf to fetch at some point 19:45:04 <andythenorth> OpenTTD runs the monthly cb when it runs 19:45:11 <andythenorth> but GS canât respond 19:45:12 <andythenorth> ? 19:45:16 <frosch123> or they can react months after newgrf requesting a gs to do something 19:45:31 <frosch123> there are no interrupts 19:45:36 <frosch123> gs can only poll 19:45:37 *** jottyfan [~jottyfan@p54B7E105.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:45:56 <andythenorth> so the best GS could do is decide that the next time the monthly cb runs for a specific industry instance, the value should be x? 19:46:03 <andythenorth> and similarly for random cb 19:46:15 <frosch123> and even if there were interrupts, information cannot take effect immediately, because it needs to be send over the network first 19:46:31 <andythenorth> I am puzzled by the network issue 19:46:42 <andythenorth> itâs probably not a relevant puzzle though 19:47:17 <frosch123> basically a gs could ask newgrf to do something, and the newgrf may obey or ignore 19:47:24 <frosch123> newgrf can also answer when asked 19:47:33 <frosch123> but gs cannot quite answer to newgrf 19:47:51 <frosch123> so, essentially, it's always the gs that has to take initiative 19:48:23 <andythenorth> +1 19:48:57 <andythenorth> if newgrf can ask GS to do things, then I think weâre on a highway to hell 19:49:02 <frosch123> the lazy method would be to add a callback which gs can trigger with whatever values, and the newgrf can react to it in whatever way 19:49:03 <andythenorth> who is controlling the game at that point? 19:49:11 <frosch123> but in the past that apporach has always failed :p 19:49:26 <andythenorth> I would, for dirtiness, just modify the existing callbacks :P 19:49:28 <frosch123> see station classes, object classes, railtype labels, ... 19:50:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: modifying existing callbacks does not match the "gs taking iniitiative" 19:50:23 <frosch123> the existing callbacks are triggered by ottd 19:50:43 <frosch123> if yuo use them, you are back to gs storing information in "gs registers", which newgrf can read 19:51:03 <frosch123> which essentially turns it into "newgrf polling for gs information" :p 19:51:31 <andythenorth> yes 19:51:34 <andythenorth> thatâs my design 19:51:37 <andythenorth> by design :) 19:51:39 <andythenorth> deliberately 19:51:51 <andythenorth> whatâs the downside? o_O 19:52:09 <frosch123> well, there is a difference 19:52:16 <frosch123> "gs variables" are static 19:52:19 <frosch123> once set, they do not change 19:52:33 <frosch123> a callback would be a "trigger" that happens exactly as often as the gs triggers it 19:52:45 <frosch123> technically you can emulate both with each other 19:53:01 <frosch123> i..e the "trigger callback" could store a value in a newgrf register, resulting in a gs variable 19:53:20 <frosch123> and vice versa the "gs variable" could be compared to earlier values, or incremented or whatever 19:53:55 <frosch123> but the trigger callback could also answer to gs 19:54:04 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.114.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:54:21 <frosch123> while the gs varibles could not answer, instead gs would have to read other newgrf variables, and noone knows who reads what when 19:55:34 <Zuu> Would it be feasible to have a DoCommand called by GS that would call ChangeIndustryProduction(Industry *i, bool monthly) in industry_cmd.cpp with an two extra argumnets: "I'm a GS" and the desired production multiplier? 19:55:58 <frosch123> that's essentially what i meant :) 19:56:17 <andythenorth> thatâs also what I meant :) 19:56:23 <frosch123> just there is no point in trying to use an existing ChangeIndustryProduction 19:56:34 <frosch123> you can add a new one, with less confusing bloat 19:56:59 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host213-53-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:57:00 <Zuu> An improvement may be to have a bit in the industry that GS can flip via another API that would disable default OpenTTD production changes. 19:57:17 <Wolf01> o/ 19:57:35 <Zuu> Or do it like the bit is flipped automatically when you make a manual adjustment and have a reset API method to zero this bit to pass back control to OpenTTD. 19:57:42 <frosch123> Zuu: the newgrf can store whatever the docommand passes to it 19:57:55 <frosch123> so the "flag" is already covered 19:58:18 <Zuu> So it is up to the NewGRF to ignore the usual OpenTTD calls and only listen to the GS? 19:58:42 <frosch123> yes, usually the newgrf ignore the ottd call anyway, don't they? :p 19:58:50 <frosch123> anyway, what happens with newly spawned industries? 19:59:04 <frosch123> can gs set default values for new industries? 19:59:20 <frosch123> or do they have to listen for new ones, and then inform then one by one about their presence 19:59:29 <frosch123> same when startnig a new game with 10k industries :p 19:59:43 <frosch123> would a gs want to control all industries? or only a hand full? 20:00:02 <frosch123> gs are bad at controlling 10k things, because it can only execute like 30 commands a second or something? 20:00:09 <frosch123> or only 15? 20:00:14 <frosch123> i don't know :p 20:00:22 <frosch123> does it need 1 or 2 ticks to execute a command? 20:04:17 *** Pensacola [~quassel@c80094.upc-c.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:35 <andythenorth> GS doesnât get control of newly spawned 20:06:10 <frosch123> no, but the gs could leave a letter for every new one to read :p 20:06:25 <andythenorth> hmm 20:06:26 <frosch123> even the industry placement condition could read that 20:06:35 <frosch123> gs could say "more wood!!!" 20:06:39 <andythenorth> if there are 10k industries⊠20:06:47 <andythenorth> and GS tries to control all monthly? 20:06:48 <andythenorth> bad? 20:07:04 <andythenorth> is this basically infeasible? :) 20:07:08 <frosch123> hmm,,.. though if a gs wants more wood, it would proably fund industries itself 20:07:40 <frosch123> @calc 74*30 20:07:40 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2220 20:07:54 <frosch123> i guess a gs has no chance to control more than 2k industries per month :p 20:08:11 <andythenorth> how many on a map? 20:08:20 <andythenorth> :P 20:08:28 <frosch123> 64x64 maps only \o/ 20:08:52 <andythenorth> I read that as 64kx64k :( 20:10:38 <frosch123> so well, i guess it's down to "a gs can only control industries the player services" 20:10:55 <andythenorth> hmm 20:10:56 <frosch123> it can not control all industries on maps way too huge for players 20:11:14 <frosch123> maybe we should just loop maps 20:11:14 <andythenorth> âgs controls all instances of an industry type at same timeâ o_O 20:11:25 <frosch123> make the map 256x256 and display it as looped 20:11:27 <andythenorth> âall coal mines increase productionâ :P 20:11:28 <frosch123> noone will notice :p 20:11:31 <andythenorth> looping maps :) 20:12:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe "industry type + area + event"? 20:12:23 <frosch123> then gs could control single industries, or a buch in an area 20:12:26 <andythenorth> âareaâ is an interesting concept :P 20:12:36 <andythenorth> if we divided the map into segments :P 20:12:38 <frosch123> frankly it make no sense to give 5k different commands to 5k industries 20:12:43 <frosch123> that' just random then 20:12:46 <frosch123> which needs no gs 20:12:50 <andythenorth> we could also set a profit calculation in a segment :P 20:12:54 <andythenorth> 100% separate issue but eh 20:12:55 <Zuu> A very basic start http://junctioneer.net/openttd/01.patch 20:13:22 * andythenorth should patch FIRS 20:14:12 <Zuu> I don't know exactly what to use from ChangeIndustryProduction, but the rest to setup the command is not so hard, just some work. :-) 20:17:09 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 20:17:12 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 20:19:17 * andythenorth wonders if OpenGFX + industries listens to prod. change 20:19:31 <andythenorth> oh this would be a new cb anyway? 20:21:20 <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ps6aj7xff <- something less specific 20:22:24 <frosch123> hmm, the area command has no space to set a industry type though :p 20:22:29 <frosch123> we need more command parameters :) 20:23:47 <frosch123> i considered a patch to merge the parameters tile, p1, p2 and text into a variable amount of parameters 20:23:54 <frosch123> only limited by a maximum size 20:23:54 <andythenorth> âcoal in the east are running outâ 20:24:02 <andythenorth> âcoal mines in the west are increasing production" 20:24:08 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:24:39 <andythenorth> âcoal mines in the west will be spinning their wheels fasterâ :P 20:24:43 <Zuu> If you limit the size of the rect, it may be possible to use a limited number of bits to specify the width/height of the rect. :-) 20:24:44 * andythenorth saw l12 20:24:58 *** dustinm` [~dustinm`@2607:5300:100:200::160d] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:25:01 <frosch123> Zuu: good point :) 20:25:09 <Zuu> And save some for other use. Depending on how many you nead for industry type. 20:25:18 <andythenorth> 64x64? 20:26:23 <Zuu> A third command could possible be to broadcast to the entire map. 20:26:47 <andythenorth> could that just work down a queue? 20:26:52 * andythenorth has a queue obsession 20:26:53 <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p0a28hstd <- more like that? 20:27:04 <andythenorth> ânext time this node is processed, the value is x' 20:27:11 <andythenorth> whenever that is :P 20:27:58 <frosch123> s/vor/for/ btw :p 20:28:11 <Zuu> I assume var 10 and 18 are vars that are usful for the NewGRF. 20:28:25 <frosch123> it's just something the newgrf can read 20:28:34 <frosch123> it's essentially a parameter like p1 and p2 20:28:50 <Zuu> right 20:28:56 <frosch123> call "p1" as "var 10", and "p2" ans "var 18" :p 20:29:01 <Zuu> :-) 20:29:12 <frosch123> but some parts of the parameter are already used, so only some parts are free 20:29:41 <frosch123> so for cb29 var10 is free and var18 is used, while for cb25 it is the other way around :p 20:30:00 <frosch123> but maybe it is a good idea to not use cb29, but add a new one 20:30:16 <frosch123> cb25 otoh has a "trigger type" parameter, so we can just add a "gs trigger" 20:30:30 <andythenorth> I was only -1 to a new cb so we didnât have to patch the tools :) 20:30:34 *** dustinm` [~dustinm`@105.ip-167-114-152.net] has joined #openttd 20:30:39 <andythenorth> and I canât edit the wiki anymore :P 20:30:41 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6D588.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:43 <frosch123> the newgrf can then start a animation of money raining down on it 20:30:57 <Zuu> :-) 20:30:58 <andythenorth> v can animate that 20:31:20 <Zuu> I like your proposal 20:32:31 <Zuu> I can code the part untill those commands are called. But beyond that I'm a bit lost. :-) 20:33:53 <Zuu> Not saying it is impossible, but will take more time :-) 20:36:22 <Zuu> frosch123: would it not be good to also gave CmdIndustryGSWorldEvent or similar name that affects all industries of given type on the map? 20:37:19 <Zuu> Hmm.. and then someone want a town selector. 20:37:50 <andythenorth> keep it simple :) 20:39:05 <Zuu> Better simple that gets done than complex that never get done :-) 20:39:10 <frosch123> Zuu: i have no idea, we need more experimental ottd versions :) 20:39:18 <frosch123> we should start a patchpack or something 20:39:44 <andythenorth> froschpack 20:39:53 <andythenorth> but remember, nobody will read your bug reports ;) 20:40:25 <frosch123> i also have a company colours patch :p 20:40:30 <frosch123> it works for one blitter 20:41:34 <frosch123> anyway, i am unsure about whether to execute all callbacks at once 20:41:41 <frosch123> or whether to distribute them randomly over some ticks 20:41:45 <Zuu> I have some acient vehicle overtake patch which didn't workout they way I wanted it to. 20:42:35 <planetmaker> o/ 20:42:36 <frosch123> so yes, i think an experimental version for gs and newgrf to try stuff 20:42:52 <frosch123> i don't think rushing for trunk is a good idea :p (is it ever?) 20:44:11 <andythenorth> tech-ladder patch :P 20:44:24 <andythenorth> GS sets an openttd global var 20:44:31 <andythenorth> newgrfs decide what they do with it 20:45:23 <andythenorth> or 20:45:29 <andythenorth> something better :P 20:53:53 <andythenorth> âtechnology level 9: your steel mills now produce more efficiently" 20:54:02 <andythenorth> âtechnology level 12: here is a new electric engine" 21:01:34 <Zuu> I've updated the initial patch to follow the frosch123 proposal. http://junctioneer.net/openttd/01.patch 21:01:39 <Zuu> Now I'm off to bed 21:02:02 <Zuu> Night all 21:02:09 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:11 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x5f742222.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 21:16:18 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 21:19:49 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18269.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:18 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 21:31:21 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 21:37:04 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:03:38 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:07:15 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 22:08:33 <Wolf01> 'night 22:08:38 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:14:42 *** newbie2 [609588@shell.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 22:18:11 <newbie2> hi i can not figure out how to set up orders for mail trucks: do they need train stations to 'Go To'? If I click 'Go To', no tiles work as a place to go to for a mail truck. 22:20:14 <a_sad_dude> newbie2, no, they need truck stations 22:20:43 <a_sad_dude> just build two in different cities and go between them 22:22:58 <newbie2> a_sad_dude: is a truck station the same thing as a lorry loading bay mentioned on https://wiki.openttd.org/Loading_Bays ? 22:23:33 <a_sad_dude> newbie2, yes. or a drive-through one 22:24:40 <planetmaker> newbie2, they need a truck station 22:24:53 <planetmaker> and yes, those are the same things 22:25:14 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 22:25:46 <newbie2> a_sad_dude, planetmaker: i see thanks :) 22:26:59 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 22:34:36 *** newbie2 [609588@shell.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:34:44 <a_sad_dude> does anyone want to play with me today? :) 22:46:48 *** supermop [~supermop@d210-49-164-110.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 23:51:05 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@71.12.36.79] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:52:06 *** Myhorta[1] [~Myhorta@10.87.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]