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00:05:00 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 00:09:58 <milek7> TrueBrain: it's on frontpage of HN 00:10:16 <milek7> that might explain higher website traffic ;p 00:10:27 <TrueBrain> no, that is normal at release 00:10:31 <TrueBrain> this .. could be more of a problem :P 00:12:06 <TrueBrain> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22772536 00:12:11 <TrueBrain> the first reply 00:12:16 <TrueBrain> prometheus plugin for OpenTTD :D 00:12:20 <TrueBrain> that is nice :) 00:14:13 <TrueBrain> https://pasteboard.co/J2aycyK.png 00:14:17 <TrueBrain> the new slashdot effect 00:18:40 <TrueBrain> in peak it is 600 request per second on the main page 00:18:45 <TrueBrain> the CPU went up to 1% 00:18:52 <TrueBrain> (not a typo) 00:25:27 <TrueBrain> " 69812978:34 python -u musad.py" 00:25:29 <TrueBrain> should I worry? 00:25:31 <TrueBrain> that is CPU time 00:29:08 <TrueBrain> seems it was hogging the CPU since 15th of March 00:29:10 <TrueBrain> oops :D 00:39:33 <glx> typical musad IIRC 01:00:33 <luaduck> does anyone know if there have been any major networking changes in OpenTTD 1.10? 01:00:43 <luaduck> SOAP has completely stopped processing chat messages 01:13:53 <glx> nothing major I think, but definitely some changes 01:18:22 <glx> luaduck: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/5880f1479f21157158dbe862e4cb1118e0cfbfae#diff-62e6b853aa98e14d472a3105a55b69b3 may be the reason :) 01:19:08 <luaduck> glx: I'm aware of that one, but that's just a change to the kick packet? 01:19:24 <luaduck> I don't see how that would break chat messaging 01:20:03 <glx> it's a new message type 01:21:05 <glx> inserted between LEAVE and SERVER_MESSAGE, so all types are now +1 01:26:52 <luaduck> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh 01:27:00 <luaduck> mystery solved 01:27:17 <luaduck> that should hopefully be a relatively straightforward patch 01:27:21 <glx> what your tool was reading as chat message was server messages ;) 01:30:53 <glx> I think nobody noticed the potential issue of inserting the new type instead of appending it 02:51:55 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 02:55:16 *** debdog has quit IRC 02:58:26 *** tCl0ud9 has joined #openttd 02:59:36 <tCl0ud9> I'm looking for a rubidium 03:00:26 <tCl0ud9> anyone know if this person has changed their name? 03:20:35 *** glx has quit IRC 03:26:48 *** cHawk_ has joined #openttd 03:28:04 *** supermop_Home has quit IRC 03:28:39 *** cHawk- has quit IRC 03:37:34 *** tCl0ud9 has left #openttd 04:45:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] chungy commented on issue #8057: Recognize NT 5.2 Service Pack 2 as supported in the installer https://git.io/JvbYw 05:04:55 *** snail_UES__ has joined #openttd 05:04:55 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 05:04:55 *** snail_UES__ is now known as snail_UES_ 05:24:38 *** Artea has quit IRC 05:26:44 *** Artea has joined #openttd 06:01:26 *** ket has joined #openttd 06:08:18 <ket> Hey guys, presumably setting autoclean_protected to 0 in the config file disables the function? (Asking for clarification because the wiki doesn't specify this as an option as it does for autoclean_novehicles and autoclean_unprotected and a question on the page discussion from 2010 is unanswered.) 06:25:41 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 06:57:12 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 07:01:20 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:06:28 *** Progman has joined #openttd 07:18:42 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:18:44 <andythenorth> o/ 08:07:57 <LordAro> ket: correct 08:08:21 <LordAro> if you can update the wiki to reflect this, please do :) 08:34:40 <peter1138> Bah, my Xbox controller battery pack won't hold a charge. I paid £15-odd quid for that :( 08:36:51 <TrueBrain> when? 3 years ago? or recently? 08:38:46 <peter1138> Maybe a year ago. I've been using it wired on the PC cos I didn't have BT adapter. 08:39:06 <peter1138> And BT for the retropi 08:39:35 <ket> LordAro: Thank you, will do :) 08:43:53 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8057: Recognize NT 5.2 Service Pack 2 as supported in the installer https://git.io/JvbYw 08:45:37 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 09:00:18 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 09:36:33 <TrueBrain> Update: changes made via content-api 09:36:34 <TrueBrain> - newgrf/4e4d4c01 (by regression) 09:36:34 <TrueBrain> \o/ 09:36:35 <TrueBrain> :D 09:36:50 <LordAro> \o/ 09:38:56 <TrueBrain> Author: OpenTTD Content API <content-api@openttd.org> 09:39:01 <TrueBrain> good enough for me 09:39:08 <TrueBrain> (that email is a black-hole email address, as a FYI 09:45:10 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:47:56 <planetmaker> <glx> [01:30:53] I think nobody noticed the potential issue of inserting the new type instead of appending it <-- omg, THAT was what I spend hours on and why it didn't work for me...! 09:48:08 <planetmaker> gonna need to test that :| 09:49:52 <TrueBrain> it is a bit evil, to do this :P 09:50:06 <TrueBrain> at least it forces a round of tool-updates, a "who-is-still-alive" check ;) 09:50:22 <TrueBrain> (nah; it is just a big boo-boo to do it like this) 09:51:53 <LordAro> 01:12:16 < TrueBrain> prometheus plugin for OpenTTD :D 09:51:58 <LordAro> oh hey, kragniz 09:55:26 <LordAro> "Super off topic, but why does this site look like its from the 90s?" from the hackernews post :D 09:58:58 *** k-man_ is now known as k-man 10:17:09 <andythenorth> this one? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22772536 10:18:27 <andythenorth> I think we should keep the retro website 10:18:58 <TrueBrain> okay, more regressions added ... "dependencies" and "compatibility" is now also in scope. w00p .. what a shitty boring job to do, adding regressions .. 10:19:13 * andythenorth gives TrueBrain a cookie 10:19:49 <TrueBrain> ty 10:20:10 <TrueBrain> 1 TODO in the code left, implement OpenTTD login 10:20:14 <TrueBrain> so that is a good thing, I guess 10:33:34 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 10:33:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 10:40:14 *** tokai has quit IRC 11:00:17 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 11:02:09 *** debdog has joined #openttd 11:26:48 <Wolf01> Let's see what steam is offeri... NO bad wolf, you have 20 (TWENTY) games to redeem from HB Choices 11:32:40 <andythenorth> hmm we have to do something about daylength :P 11:33:15 <andythenorth> :D 11:35:18 <Wolf01> Yes 11:35:43 <Wolf01> Decouple the date from the game speed 11:36:12 <Wolf01> So you can keep the date at his own pace while you fast forward 11:37:09 <Wolf01> Economy should be tick based and not date based 11:37:36 <Wolf01> Grf introduction dates will still be based on the date 11:37:48 <Wolf01> This is my idea 11:38:32 <andythenorth> I considered 20 year-long tech eras 11:39:03 <andythenorth> OpenTTD could automatically figure which era a vehicle belongs to by default,, based on dates 11:39:09 <planetmaker> I think the main question which needs answering is where we can do without the accuracy as-now: do we care about yearly costs (or per tick)? Does monthly production matter (or per tick)? 11:39:11 <andythenorth> then player could adjust era length 11:39:27 <planetmaker> my idea is that costs are currently balanced as per-tick. 11:39:43 <planetmaker> (and production etc as we don't have vehicles move slower 11:39:51 <andythenorth> the era would prevent the spacing out of related vehicle introductions, the intro date would be same relative to era start 11:40:08 <andythenorth> but the era might be 20 years or 100 years 11:40:10 <andythenorth> 'new wave' 11:43:21 <andythenorth> meh, my idea fails 11:43:32 <andythenorth> we have to support from year 0 to max game year 11:43:59 <andythenorth> so if player changes era length to 40 not 20 11:44:28 <andythenorth> a train with intro date of 1950 would arrive in 3900, not 1970 11:44:31 <andythenorth> fails 11:45:12 <FLHerne> andythenorth: By far the most clamouring for "daylength" is the realism brigade 11:45:31 <Wolf01> You might want a concept of era like mashinky one 11:45:31 <FLHerne> Anything that makes the intro dates not the 'right' ones is a non-solution 11:45:39 <FLHerne> (I think I've said that before) 11:45:44 <TrueBrain> what always puzzled me .. what is daylength trying to solve? I see many answers to that question, which makes any solution reallllyyyy difficult :) 11:46:41 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I have asked this question so many times :) 11:46:43 <andythenorth> I should get the logs :P 11:46:47 <Wolf01> TB: mainly the "I want to play with steam trains longer without the game filling my vehicle list with new ones" 11:46:57 <FLHerne> ^that 11:47:01 <planetmaker> my take on reasoning: time passes too fast at the normal building speed and you cannot use many vehicles as they are already obsolete when you can care about them 11:47:11 <planetmaker> Thus years pass by too quickly to use vehicles 11:47:40 <TrueBrain> well, at least 3 similar opinions; that is a first :D 11:47:40 <Wolf01> Also playing an eternal 1940, 1970, or 2100 is an option 11:47:40 <FLHerne> There was a side-effect that one version reduced cargo production, which was useful to a similar set of players 11:47:47 <planetmaker> so if we had 1950a ... 1950j we'd have a 10x daylength factor and ... probably most people be content 11:48:00 <FLHerne> (because realistic networks tend not to be capacity-optimal) 11:48:31 <FLHerne> But JGRPP has separate settings for that, so it's orthogonal now 11:48:57 <planetmaker> orthogonal years and production probably is sensible. More content people 11:49:06 <planetmaker> as you can have it the way you want 11:49:12 <planetmaker> then it's just a matter of defaults 11:49:29 <FLHerne> Also, the new linear town cargo really helps with that 11:49:51 <FLHerne> 1950a->j would look a bit silly, but I'd be ok with it 11:50:07 <Wolf01> I say, I'm happy with the way transport fever implemented it: the economy is always the same no matter the daylength is, if you want to speed up the economy just fast forward 11:50:14 <planetmaker> of course it looks silly. Was just an illustration. The GUI should make it look somewhat different :) 11:50:45 <planetmaker> Wolf01, what about vehicle speed, thus delivery of goods there? 11:50:52 <planetmaker> is it affected by daylength? 11:51:01 <Wolf01> You want to be able to build an entire network in 1880? Pause the date, build some routes, fast forward for some hours, build the network, unpause the date 11:51:32 <planetmaker> But... that does work with openttd nowadays, too 11:51:42 <planetmaker> but then you'd hardly unpause the game :P 11:51:49 <Wolf01> Except that you can't pause the date in OTTD 11:52:04 <planetmaker> vehicles move while paused there? 11:52:04 <Wolf01> And vehicle don't move while paused 11:52:10 <TrueBrain> really only pause the date, and let everything else going? 11:52:11 <planetmaker> ah 11:52:13 <TrueBrain> funny :) 11:52:20 <planetmaker> it's an interesting solution tbh 11:52:28 <planetmaker> but... do you still earn money the normal way, Wolf01 ? 11:52:46 <andythenorth> my case is really simple 11:53:00 <andythenorth> I made a newgrf with 6 generations of trains 1860-2020 11:53:00 <Wolf01> Yes, you earn B in 1 hour no matter if the daylength is 1 or 40x 11:53:10 <planetmaker> ah, ok 11:53:18 <andythenorth> the generations are ~30 years apart 11:53:33 <andythenorth> I only just finish upgrading 1 generation, then the next 1 appears 11:53:41 *** Samu has joined #openttd 11:53:42 <planetmaker> So the monthly production statistics are affected by daylength. It could be infinity (if you pause) and it could be some minimum, if you have time progress 11:53:51 <andythenorth> I could just my case this in newgrf, but eddi said I should do it properly 11:53:56 <andythenorth> just fix * 11:54:06 <Wolf01> So you can play eternally with the first electric engine in ~1910 while upgrading your network a piece at time 11:54:16 <michi_cc> TF2 does daylength the most simple way: Instead of years X, X+1, X+2 etc, on 2x you have years X H1, X H2, X+1 H1 etc, 4x X Q1, X Q2, X Q3, X Q4, X+1 Q1 etc. And it is really nothing more than just a label, as even the "yearly" income sheet simply gets its columns renamed. 11:54:33 <Wolf01> ^ 11:55:16 <andythenorth> I am considering remapping the eras in Iron Horse 11:55:22 <Wolf01> Also, you see more columns or less colums depending on daylength, but that's just a scale, since you can change it as you want 11:55:26 <andythenorth> parameter: mostly realistic, mostly gameplay 11:55:27 <michi_cc> Nothing else is adjusted in any way and no speed/production etc is scaled. Of course, this approach does not allow fine-grained, odd factors. 11:56:14 <Wolf01> Also if you pause the date you see the charts in minutes IIRC 11:56:59 <planetmaker> So just have the game progress normally. And have the date counter (and related monthly, yearly) interval change according to date. Don't care about monthly / yearly values, just treat them as "every X ticks (how many that is now with daylength 1) 11:57:45 <Wolf01> Yes 11:58:30 <michi_cc> It would potentially break the text in some (industry) NewGRFs, if they mention months or years. 11:58:43 <michi_cc> But that is really only a cosmetic problem. 11:59:07 <planetmaker> yes 11:59:30 <planetmaker> it might also mention other newgrf texts in vehicles which mention yearly costs (like maintenance / running...) 11:59:37 <planetmaker> but that's the same cosmetic category 11:59:39 <Wolf01> We could provide a callback for conversion of ticks*length for grfs 11:59:50 <planetmaker> it should be done automatic 11:59:54 <michi_cc> Like e.g. something coded to last 25 production cycles, which is normally three months. 12:00:16 <michi_cc> So a text that says "every three months" would be wrong then. 12:00:21 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 12:00:37 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 12:02:01 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 12:02:14 <michi_cc> A solution for new NewGRFs would be a global var with the current scaling factor and/or a string formatting code for "ticks in humane unit". 12:02:16 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 12:04:19 <andythenorth> :) 12:04:35 <Wolf01> andythenorth is happy, let's do it 12:05:08 <andythenorth> or I just fix it in newgrf :P 12:05:12 <andythenorth> it would take about 10 minutes :) 12:05:17 <andythenorth> this is why I love content APIs 12:05:48 <andythenorth> intro_date = _intro_date + offset :P 12:10:18 <andythenorth> hmm the fake month names idea was appealing 12:10:27 <andythenorth> so we could have 6 month years, or 28 month years 12:11:46 <FLHerne> michi_cc's idea was better :P 12:12:32 <andythenorth> last game I just set the date back every 5 years or so 12:16:40 <andythenorth> do we need realism dates? 12:16:46 <andythenorth> how about just 'year 1' etc? 12:16:55 <andythenorth> too orwellian? 12:22:24 <LordAro> would be a bit difficult to resolve introduction years 12:22:49 <LordAro> michi_cc: how would OTTD deal with day & months with the X H1, X Q1 form? just repeat them? 12:24:25 <Wolf01> Do we have leap years in current OTTD? 12:32:17 <LordAro> yes 12:47:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8057: Recognize NT 5.2 Service Pack 2 as supported in the installer https://git.io/JvbYw 12:48:57 *** glx has joined #openttd 12:48:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 12:49:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] aha999 opened issue #8059: Escape button should open a game menu https://git.io/JvboC 12:51:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8059: Escape button should open a game menu https://git.io/JvboC 12:52:09 <andythenorth> hmm if we measured game periods in productions cycles 12:52:18 <andythenorth> that would aid a minor FIRS headache :P 12:53:06 <andythenorth> FIRS gives players feedback about '3 month' delivery windows 12:53:31 <andythenorth> but they won't always be 3 months, due to when callbacks run 12:53:47 <andythenorth> it's hardly noticeable, but eh 12:56:10 <Wolf01> Aahaha, nice reply LordAro 12:56:33 <LordAro> Wolf01: it's not like i disagree... but there's no obvious candidate 12:56:45 <LordAro> savegame, perhaps? 12:57:17 <Wolf01> Yeah, we don't even have a classic "save, load, options, go to title, exit to desktop" menu 12:57:17 <LordAro> it could "click" on the settings toolbar icon :p 12:57:28 <glx> or "main" menu (the one with exit) 12:57:44 <LordAro> maybe we should have one 12:57:50 <LordAro> but that's a rather larger issue 12:58:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] aha999 commented on issue #8059: Escape button should open a game menu https://git.io/JvboC 12:58:31 <LordAro> like that 12:58:34 <Wolf01> :D 12:58:47 <glx> of course we don't have that :) 12:58:59 <LordAro> ok, can i close it as "too vague, and we don't like vague suggestions in our issue tracker" 12:59:05 <LordAro> "feel free to open a PR" 12:59:18 <Wolf01> Feature request 12:59:42 <LordAro> there's a few other issues that should probably be closed in that case 12:59:55 * LordAro sets andythenorth on them 13:00:13 <glx> we could just add the label 13:00:26 <FLHerne> So, I changed apparently nothing, but now I seem to be getting the mysterious macOS perf symptoms with 1.9.3 on Linux :-/ 13:00:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8018: Visual Studio/OpenTTD Baseset installation folder vs Regression build https://git.io/Jv017 13:00:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8018: Visual Studio/OpenTTD Baseset installation folder vs Regression build https://git.io/Jv017 13:01:00 <FLHerne> Graphics FPS drops to <2 (!) if one of those news popups is visible 13:01:09 <LordAro> FLHerne: you should upgrade to 1.10.0 :p 13:01:20 <FLHerne> And roughly halves if anything animated it 13:01:24 <FLHerne> *is 13:01:52 <FLHerne> LordAro: Reddit S1 hasn't yet, and I use jgrpp for single-player 13:02:07 <FLHerne> Oh, since current jgrpp is 13:02:20 <FLHerne> ~1.10 in that respect, I should see if that's affected 13:02:24 *** Progman has quit IRC 13:02:45 <glx> yeah the news FPS drop issue should be fixed in 1.10 13:02:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7970: Crash in crash handler - Assertion failed at line 2981 of window.cpp https://git.io/JvsUh 13:02:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7970: Crash in crash handler - Assertion failed at line 2981 of window.cpp https://git.io/JvsUh 13:03:24 <FLHerne> Seems fine 13:03:45 <FLHerne> The odd thing is that I've had 1.9.3 since it was released 13:03:52 <Wolf01> Hmm, I just noticed 2x gui sprites need the new icons in the right size 13:03:53 <LordAro> FLHerne: curious that it would just start happening though 13:04:04 <LordAro> any recent system/graphics driver updates? 13:04:09 <FLHerne> And I've not noticed it becoming unplayable with every news popup before :P 13:04:13 <FLHerne> No 13:04:28 <FLHerne> Well, not since 2 days ago when I last played 13:04:57 <michi_cc> LordAro: For OTTD, you would probably create a second DAY_TICKS factor for use with all explicitly date based things, while most things like CBs stay tick-based. 13:05:17 <LordAro> yeah 13:05:20 <LordAro> the tricky bit is "most" 13:06:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8029: Black screen on SDL2-enabled OpenTTD, Sway and SDL_VIDEODRIVER=wayland https://git.io/Jv23P 13:11:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8049: Suggestion: Allow Game Scripts to set company loan beyond max loan and independent of cash on hand https://git.io/Jv7Jj 13:11:32 <Wolf01> Oh shit andy.... I confused wood with timber :( 13:12:56 <Wolf01> I need a cable lifter road type, it would really suit the current map 13:16:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I just discovered that jgrpp has an 'equal distribution' mode for cargodist, and per-cargo mode settings 13:16:22 <FLHerne> This makes the supply mechanics actually work :D 13:48:07 *** Flygon has quit IRC 14:06:08 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 14:07:33 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 14:25:21 <andythenorth> FLHerne does it fix the issue that only 2 cdist destinations can be served from 1 pickup station? 14:26:14 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is that a thing? Can't say I've noticed it 14:26:22 <andythenorth> it's a thing 14:27:10 <andythenorth> cdist doesn't discover the new link, then vehicles don't get a load, so cdist still doesn't discover the link 14:27:17 <andythenorth> then the station blocks 14:27:33 <andythenorth> then station rating falls, so the vehicle doesn't get a load; repeat 14:28:37 *** supermop_Home_ has joined #openttd 14:29:55 <Wolf01> andythenorth: is possible to have a grf with a roadtype and a vehicle? 14:30:02 <andythenorth> yes 14:30:05 <andythenorth> Hog does it 14:30:29 <Wolf01> Hog has cable lifter for wood/coal? 14:30:33 <andythenorth> enforced separation of roadtypes / railtypes from there vehicles is so weird 14:30:40 <andythenorth> hog does not have that :P 14:30:41 <andythenorth> ropeway? 14:30:46 <Wolf01> Ropeway yes 14:34:47 <Wolf01> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=61471 ahah I want this too, for roads, not rails 15:27:57 *** Lejving__ has quit IRC 15:33:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] samcat116 commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo 15:38:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 15458434 commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo 15:40:20 *** cyberjunkie has joined #openttd 15:43:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo 16:04:03 *** cyberjunkie has quit IRC 16:05:55 <TrueBrain> Good reply andythenorth 16:06:50 <TrueBrain> Easy to assume we can do everything ... difficult to put into action :) 16:07:17 <nielsm> I don't think a random person can create a legal entity for openttd and get a code signing certificate 16:07:25 <nielsm> it would be a problem if they could, really 16:08:03 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 16:08:40 <TrueBrain> No, but we mostly need help how to get it done 16:09:26 <TrueBrain> Without making a single person liable, ofc 16:09:50 <nielsm> well apple has two ways to register developer accounts, as an individual or as an organisation, question is if any one person wants to have their name plastered on all macos releases as the sole person responsible? 16:10:28 <TrueBrain> I think I just answered that :p :D 16:11:23 *** rotterdxm has joined #openttd 16:12:59 <TrueBrain> I understand why all the major vendors (including Steam, Apple, etc) want legal entities .. but for Open Source projects it is difficult ... 16:13:19 <milek7> you can have individual account for Steam too 16:16:20 <TrueBrain> And we are back to: without making a single person liable :) 16:18:21 <milek7> eh, personally I wouldn't care ;p 16:18:47 <TrueBrain> depending on the country you live in, you kinda should ;) 16:19:16 <TrueBrain> but I guess more the point is: having a bus-factor of 1 is .. not so nice 16:19:41 <nielsm> let's upgrade that to a rona-factor of 1 16:19:43 <nielsm> :P 16:19:52 <TrueBrain> owh no he didn't :D 16:20:53 <TrueBrain> you slowly see these umbrella corps being created that allow you to use their corp for these things, for Open Source world 16:20:56 <TrueBrain> but it is a slow process 16:21:00 <TrueBrain> with a lot of legal blablablabla 16:22:25 <TrueBrain> I noticed that the EV cert needed for MS signing has similar issue btw .. it needs a legal entity (which makes sense .. that is what EV certs should proof) 16:22:44 <milek7> EV is stupidly expensive 16:22:52 <TrueBrain> you can get it for under 100 dollars 16:22:55 <TrueBrain> so it is kinda okay 16:23:01 <milek7> EV? where? 16:23:07 <TrueBrain> the EV needed for MS certs 16:23:23 <TrueBrain> it was in the link in the issue tracker 16:23:35 <nielsm> I'd gladly chip in for a proper signing cert 16:23:44 <TrueBrain> money really isn't the issue 16:23:45 <milek7> i think EV is for kernel mode drivers 16:24:11 <nielsm> yeah I think most of us are at the age where money isn't a major issue 16:24:14 <TrueBrain> hell, we once flew a dev over from Canada to enjoy the r10000 celebration in Germany :P 16:24:20 <nielsm> :D 16:24:26 <milek7> and instant smartscreen reputation, but standard cert also changes message to less scary and warning goes away with some time 16:24:57 <TrueBrain> the problem really comes down to: if you use a single person to get these certs, you need to answer two questions: 1) what if that person disapears, 2) what if that person is being sued 16:25:57 <TrueBrain> I tihnk there are 4 devs from 2007 still active in OpenTTD, so you could say they are never going to leave now .. but that is still a real thing to consider 16:26:02 <TrueBrain> and 2) is just .. a pain .. 16:26:17 <milek7> 1) cert usually have 1-year validity, so you just get another one 16:26:44 <TrueBrain> the other thing we explored many times: what if we get some kind of LLC in some country 16:26:53 <TrueBrain> but .. nobody understands enough legal bla to figure that out, really 16:27:01 <TrueBrain> so it always ends with: we should look into this 16:29:44 <milek7> https://i.imgur.com/8HLMOQw.png 16:29:52 <milek7> this one was ~30$, but expired now 16:36:22 <TrueBrain> I still think having OpenTTD in Steam would be fun :D I tried emailing Steam about how to get it on their store as Open Source project, but they never replied to any mail, except the: this is the wrong place to ask this, you should ask <other location here> 16:36:25 <TrueBrain> which was just annoying 16:36:35 <TrueBrain> I understand they don't care .. it still is annoying :P 16:39:32 <milek7> steam is bit silly 16:39:33 <Artea> hello 16:39:35 <milek7> I had to fill all their tax paperwork, bank account number, etc even if my product is free ;D 16:40:48 <milek7> (not mine actually, open source simulator) 16:41:00 <Artea> ./home/artea/openttd-1.10.0/src/gfx_layout.cpp: In member function ‘virtual std::unique_ptr<const ParagraphLayouter::Line> FallbackParagraphLayout::NextLine(int ’: 16:41:00 <Artea> ./home/artea/openttd-1.10.0/src/gfx_layout.cpp:513:10: error: cannot bind ‘std::unique_ptr<FallbackParagraphLayout::FallbackLine>’ lvalue to ‘std::unique_ptr<FallbackParagraphLayout::FallbackLine>&&’ 16:41:00 <Artea> return l; 16:41:06 <Artea> is this normal ? 16:41:18 <nielsm> no 16:41:26 <nielsm> which compiler version? 16:41:59 <Artea> not sure 16:42:10 <Artea> I didnt checked much of CentOS 7 16:42:29 <Artea> (re)new VPS 16:42:34 <nielsm> check the log from the configure script which compiler it detects and uses, then run it with the --version flag 16:43:22 <nielsm> but it looks like it has to do with text layout, if you intend to run a server (since you mention a VPS) you should just disable all graphics stuff like the SDL1/SDL2 drivers and ICU support 16:43:59 <nielsm> unless that happens when you build without ICU or without a graphical video driver or something in which case it would be a bug 16:44:24 <Artea> I dont think I had to do much in 1.9.x 16:45:52 <Artea> https://pastebin.com/3mf3axUk 16:47:22 <nielsm> /usr/include/c++/4.8.2/bits/unique_ptr.h 16:47:25 <nielsm> that 4.8.2... is that GCC version? 16:47:33 <nielsm> try running this command: 16:47:34 <Artea> I enable dedicated 16:47:37 <nielsm> g++ --version 16:48:05 <Artea> g++ (GCC) 4.8.5 20150623 (Red Hat 4.8.5-39) 16:48:14 <nielsm> yeah that's probably too old 16:48:34 <nielsm> you should be using GCC 8.x or 9.x 16:48:34 <Artea> I went update that for some unknown reason 16:48:49 <Artea> dont know why is installed this version 16:50:19 <nielsm> if you don't know how to upgrade it my best suggestions is to backup all important data and wipe and reinstall your VPS to a newer OS version 16:51:46 <Artea> but it is 16:51:51 <Artea> is the recent VPS by OVH 16:52:08 <milek7> centos 8.1 is current 16:53:23 <TrueBrain> OVH only has CentOS 7.2 still, I believe 16:53:28 <TrueBrain> which comes with GCC 4.8.5 16:53:39 <TrueBrain> (CentOS freezes its gcc version within major versions) 16:54:51 <TrueBrain> I believe OVH only has modern Debian in their templates 17:02:22 <andythenorth> I also suspect someone could just register the entity 17:02:24 <andythenorth> anyone 17:02:32 <andythenorth> and then get a signing cert 17:02:48 <andythenorth> are certs locked to domain names in any way? 17:02:52 * andythenorth assumes not 17:05:11 <nielsm> at least in Denmark the only type of entity that seems to make sense is an association (forening) and those require at least two members, two members of board, and formal bylaws 17:05:19 <nielsm> so not possible to register as a single person 17:05:35 <TrueBrain> most countries also have a type for non-profit stuff 17:05:41 <TrueBrain> "stichting" in Dutch 17:05:53 <TrueBrain> main drawback in Dutch .. the name of the company needs to have the word "Stichting" in it 17:06:00 <Artea> Thanks 17:06:06 <Artea> I will work out this another time 17:07:24 <TrueBrain> I do wonder how free you are to pick the name on a Code Signing Cert, tbh 17:07:42 <TrueBrain> can it differ from the name of the legal entity, and who sets the name :D 17:07:57 <andythenorth> I could register a UK limited company with an agent, and start signing malware 17:08:05 <andythenorth> eventually I'd be traced 17:08:08 <andythenorth> but eh 17:08:16 <TrueBrain> you call OpenTTD malware now? :p 17:08:24 <nielsm> an actual foundation in danish law requires a capital of one million DKK, as far as I can tell, a regular business with limited liability requires a capital of 40,000 DKK, and a limited liability association is just required to be conducting actual business 17:08:28 <andythenorth> do we not have a coin-miner in it? 17:08:45 <nielsm> (I don't think openttd can be considered to be conducting business, nobody here is selling any products or services) 17:08:54 <TrueBrain> nielsm: I always find it funny, how countries do this differently :D 17:09:09 <andythenorth> as it pegs my CPU to 90% I assumed OpenTTD was coin-mining :P 17:09:32 <andythenorth> 90% of 1 thread unit * 17:09:33 <TrueBrain> if you have a company for "ideals", you can create a "stichting" here .. can be run by a single person, you don't need any starting capital .. 17:09:44 <andythenorth> eh that leaves 15 thread units for coin mining 17:10:22 <nielsm> TrueBrain but can a single person form a limited liability stichting? 17:10:49 <nielsm> in fact can an "ideal stichting" even have limited liability? 17:10:55 <TrueBrain> from what I understand, but IANAL, there are two forms: one where you are, as person, still responsible, and one form where you are not 17:11:12 <andythenorth> it's not something to do lightly anywhere, if we have one person then bus factor 17:11:41 <TrueBrain> no, forget what I just said, that is for "verenigingen", similar to the first one you mention (at least 2 people, members, meetings, bla) 17:12:10 <TrueBrain> within a stichting, you are only liable if you, as director, delibratly made mistakes (that is true for any corperation in the netherlands) 17:12:26 <andythenorth> similar to UK company law 17:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if we're going to organize in any way, it should probably be some pan-european thing instead of a single country 17:13:23 <TrueBrain> yes, lets complicate this even more :D 17:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and there should be multiple people in charge 17:13:40 <TrueBrain> nielsm: every time I try to read up on this in Dutch law, I just realise I am not a lawyer, and fail to understand the implications :) 17:15:31 <andythenorth> it looked more helpful to try and get Apache Foundation or similar to adopt us 17:16:01 <andythenorth> we don't have enough people to do an nml release, running a legal org is blah blah trouble :) 17:18:25 <TrueBrain> funny, a "stichting" is now allowed to use the profit for anything else except to pay other stichting-like-goals :) 17:20:11 <TrueBrain> 300 euro to start one,including all legal documents 17:20:12 <TrueBrain> lol 17:20:32 <milek7> >can it differ from the name of the legal entity 17:20:34 <milek7> I guess not, that's the point of cert 17:21:05 <TrueBrain> that is the part that always hold me back to fix this in the Netherlands .. as that would mean if you start openttd.txt, you see "Stichting OpenTTD" 17:21:08 <TrueBrain> which would look REAL silly 17:21:17 <TrueBrain> openttd.txt? openttd.exe 17:21:18 <TrueBrain> :P 17:21:48 <nielsm> how about OpenTTD F.M.B.A. 17:22:00 <milek7> mine had 'Miłosz Rachwał, Open Source Developer' 17:22:03 <milek7> but people really don't care as long it makes security warnings less scary ;P 17:22:17 <TrueBrain> nielsm: prtty sure that would too result in questions on the forum :) 17:22:33 <TrueBrain> in the end, I don't think it really matters; we just need a clear story about it 17:23:21 <nielsm> "strange combination of letters required for a limited liability entity in <random EU state>" 17:24:23 <TrueBrain> yeah, well, that is the good thing I guess. A "stichting" is a full legal entity. I guess the same is for your form of corp, ofc. The only thing you really need overhere, is a set of rules of people get in the board and are pushed out of the board 17:24:27 <TrueBrain> that is the only thing you have to put in writing 17:24:42 <TrueBrain> other than that, it is not really tight to a real person, from what I understand 17:24:56 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> funny, a "stichting" is now allowed to use the profit for anything else except to pay other stichting-like-goals :) <-- you likely have to draw up some kind of "constitution" that lists all things that it may spend money on 17:25:12 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: not from what I can find 17:25:22 <TrueBrain> seems it is more on a .. "you shouldn't do this" 17:25:49 <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: I don't think there is a way to have a non-business-conducting entity in the EU/EEA that does not belong to a particular nation state 17:26:13 <TrueBrain> I somehow hope that doesn't exist tbh :) But .. IANAL .. so who knows :D 17:27:57 <TrueBrain> fun thing about a "stichting", the nationality of people in the board is irrelevant, it seems 17:28:28 <michi_cc> Well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Foundation_Project is shelved for now 17:29:16 *** debdog has quit IRC 17:30:00 <LordAro> Mr Open Ttd, CEO of OpenTTD Inc 17:30:10 <TrueBrain> seeing mailman going in the street these days is funny 17:30:14 <TrueBrain> he puts down the package at the door 17:30:15 <TrueBrain> rings the bell 17:30:20 <TrueBrain> walks away 2 meters 17:30:23 <TrueBrain> waits for the door to open 17:30:26 <TrueBrain> says hi 17:30:28 <TrueBrain> walks away 17:30:47 <TrueBrain> social distancing in its finest 17:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: https://www.faz.net/einspruch/kommentar-es-ist-zeit-fuer-ein-europaeisches-vereinsrecht-16357796.html?premium=0x9e32e01b9d32046970dd21f9de02d48b <-- doesn't sound overly promising 17:30:59 *** Progman has joined #openttd 17:31:23 <TrueBrain> LordAro: fun thing is, OpenTTD Inc would be a fine name for anyone. But the Europe-translations of that .. somehow that feels off :P 17:31:41 <TrueBrain> I wonder what documents an EV Cert requires for these kind of corps 17:31:46 <TrueBrain> as you don't have an ID of sorts 17:32:37 <nielsm> well there's also the question, would we be willing to pay a lawyer to advise on this? 17:32:44 <nielsm> alternate question* 17:33:01 <milek7> you keep talking about EV, but I think you mean something else? EV is _really_ stupidly expensive 17:33:02 <TrueBrain> 500 euro for an EV Code Signing Cert .. holy crap 17:33:17 <TrueBrain> milek7: no, I mean EV. Like really. EV. 17:33:30 <TrueBrain> nielsm: good question .. we need someone with a bit more legal knowledge :D 17:33:49 <TrueBrain> what I can do, is call a company her ein the Netherlands on monday that might have some experience with Open Source corps, and see what is "normal" there 17:33:54 <TrueBrain> but .. these questions are a bit rare 17:33:55 <milek7> OV certs are around 100$ 17:34:35 <milek7> and I don't think you need EV to do kernel drivers 17:34:43 <Eddi|zuHause> can we get advice from FSF without signing all our licenses over to them (which we can't really do anyway?) 17:34:50 <TrueBrain> it never stops to amase me how rich CAs got from this cert-stuff :) 17:37:07 <nielsm> one starting point would be outlining requirements and nice-to-haves for the form of organisation we want... 17:37:20 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 17:37:24 <milek7> you officialy also need smartcard to store private key 17:38:17 <milek7> (though it's possible to get around that with VMs and emulated tpm) 17:38:20 *** debdog has joined #openttd 17:39:29 <nielsm> requirements: ownership of code? ownership of domain names and server accounts? capital? receive donations (and taxation or not)? membership/board membership? liability in case of legal action? 17:39:59 <planetmaker> hm, is an OpenTTD org again on the table? 17:40:13 <nielsm> yes, because users are asking about code signing 17:40:16 <nielsm> for both windows and mac 17:40:23 <planetmaker> uh, I see 17:40:28 <TrueBrain> nielsm: all good questions :) Just remember we don't need them answered to get the code signing done, but I agree with your questions :) 17:40:29 <planetmaker> what a PITA 17:45:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JvbSm 17:45:51 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 17:47:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8056: OpenTTD's installer should be signed https://git.io/Jvbkk 17:49:38 <milek7> TrueBrain: >"with what-ever legal entity requested" 17:49:49 <milek7> their open source offer is limited to individual persons 17:50:01 <nielsm> TrueBrain: I have a smartcard reader (NFC type only) :) 17:50:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo 17:50:51 <TrueBrain> nielsm: we all have NFC-based smartcard readers, don't we? I call it a phone :P 17:50:52 <TrueBrain> :D 17:52:15 <TrueBrain> milek7: source? 17:54:19 <milek7> https://www.certum.pl/pl/cert_oferta_open_source_signing/ 17:54:23 <milek7> "Certyfikaty Open Source Code Signing wydajemy wyłącznie na osoby fizyczne." 17:54:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/JvbSg 17:55:29 <TrueBrain> milek7: funny, as the english version of their pages are constantly explicitly naming users and organization 17:55:45 <TrueBrain> anyway, please don't mention these things here, but mention them in the issue-tracker 17:55:55 <TrueBrain> it is what they are for :) Collect information in a central place :) 17:56:21 <TrueBrain> just please mention sources, makes it easier to validate claims :) 17:56:46 <TrueBrain> funny, Certum doesn't mention Apple in their code signing certs 17:56:48 <TrueBrain> digicert does 17:56:54 <TrueBrain> this world is just messed up, tbfh 17:59:55 <milek7> I wonder if I'm allowed to sign code for other projects than specified in application 18:00:07 <milek7> I guess probably not 18:01:36 <andythenorth> seriously, I think we could solve 1/3 of daylength requests just by making it 'not a cheat' to set year back 18:02:40 <andythenorth> I have gone back 1945->1938 3 times in this game 18:04:11 <Wolf01> To enjoy more of WWII? 18:04:52 <TrueBrain> I still like the "freeze the date" :) 18:05:00 <TrueBrain> it is simple, elegant, anyone can understand it 18:06:43 <milek7> X-axis on graph, money window history though? change to "2 years ago, 3 years ago, etc."? 18:07:26 <TrueBrain> how is that a question if time stands still? 18:08:34 <Wolf01> Ha! I found a german transport fever player with a OTTD avatar 18:09:10 <TrueBrain> okay, Content API can reload its database from disk .. with a webhook .. what else was there to do .. 18:09:42 <TrueBrain> GitHub module, so it pushes and pulls from GitHub .. 18:09:52 <TrueBrain> S3 support, so it stores the files there 18:09:59 <TrueBrain> I think .... that is it ... 18:10:03 <TrueBrain> this list is getting really small :D 18:11:45 <andythenorth> 'freeze' | 'unfreeze' 18:12:43 <TrueBrain> it is not a perfect solution, freezing time, but it makes answering all these questions about daylength really easy tbh 18:13:13 <andythenorth> if it was on/off option, would work for me 18:13:20 <TrueBrain> a toggle, yes 18:13:23 <TrueBrain> like pause/unpause 18:13:32 <andythenorth> groundhog day mode 18:13:53 <TrueBrain> there are some parts of the code that needs attention of course .. as some maintaince code is hooked into the fact the date progresses 18:13:59 <TrueBrain> maintenenenenencace code 18:14:01 <TrueBrain> I hate that word 18:14:37 <TrueBrain> well, not all questions are fully trivial 18:14:43 *** gelignite has quit IRC 18:14:44 <TrueBrain> farmland, should it advance in animation? :D 18:15:49 <Wolf01> https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2015954130 wtf... andythenorth get some inspiration 18:16:51 <andythenorth> :D 18:17:07 <Wolf01> The trailing cars are part of the vehicle 18:30:16 <Artea> yay 18:30:20 <Artea> compiling GCC :D 18:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> @artea how many days does that take nowadays? 18:31:38 <Artea> a little 18:43:04 *** ja has joined #openttd 18:45:02 <ja> i had a crash with directorai 18:45:27 <ja> is it a known bug? did i do something wrong? i am a newbie, just started the scandinavian scenario with 1.10 18:45:40 <ja> *FUNCTION [BridgeUpgrader()] dictatorai-169/handler/checks.nut line [436] 18:45:56 <ja> screenshot: https://hushfile.it/api/file?fileid=5e88d58dbe33d 18:56:12 <LordAro> ja: you'll need to report it to the creator of directorai, not us 18:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ja: try to look for the thread of DictatorAI in the forums 18:56:48 <LordAro> AIs are created by other users, sometimes they are broken 18:56:56 <LordAro> definitely not something you did :) 19:06:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/Jvb9A 19:10:42 *** Progman has quit IRC 19:11:31 *** Progman has joined #openttd 19:21:03 <ja> all right. thanks! 19:21:15 <ja> is there a way to remove money? i used the cheat and now i have too much :P 19:21:48 <glx> I think the cheat works both ways 19:30:12 <ja> aaah, it just doesn't take you negative, that's why i thought it didnt. thanks! 19:34:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] samcat116 commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo 19:41:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo 19:49:38 <TrueBrain> I am not sure that claim is true. You need a dev-account to publish the game, but it seems you can sign it with a Code Signing Cert .. 19:50:00 <TrueBrain> at least, that is what some sources tell, including the manual how to sign a file on Mac 19:50:08 <TrueBrain> never tested it, so hard to proof one way or the other :) 19:50:47 <TrueBrain> (proof for me) 19:50:48 <milek7> it probably needs dev-account for that 'notarization' 19:50:52 <nielsm> the thing is that apple wants you to not only sign your macos apps but also ahve them notarized 19:50:53 <nielsm> yes 19:51:12 <nielsm> apple wants to verify your software manually unlike microsoft 19:51:28 <TrueBrain> so it needs both 19:51:29 <TrueBrain> even worse :D 19:53:31 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 20:16:34 *** supermop_Home_ has quit IRC 20:53:06 *** Zuu has joined #openttd 20:56:26 <Zuu> Samu: I think I made the proposed changes here. Does it look alright to you? https://github.com/openttdcoop/ailib-pathfinderroad/commit/b00f7b0dc1669bb88b1ff26e9ebc07b62fc8852d 20:59:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/Jvbdo 21:14:54 <Samu> wow github 21:15:00 <Samu> nice, looks great 21:17:48 <Zuu> Yes some of the devzone projects have been moved there but not all yet. 21:22:23 *** syr has quit IRC 21:22:45 *** syr has joined #openttd 21:29:53 <Samu> i think fibonacci heap is faster than binary queue 21:30:01 <Samu> but that's just me 21:31:29 <Samu> oh, it's on GraphAyStar 21:34:49 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:36:01 <Samu> needs some other ppl to test this claim 21:38:52 <Samu> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/lib-aystar/repository/revisions/832152f6a696/entry/main.nut#L9 this line here 21:42:38 *** Samu has quit IRC 21:51:15 <andythenorth> BED 21:51:20 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:23:00 *** rotterdxm has quit IRC 22:23:22 *** snail_UES_ is now known as Guest21311 22:23:22 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 22:25:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/Jvbb7 22:29:28 *** Guest21311 has quit IRC 22:29:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8059: Escape button should open a game menu https://git.io/JvboC 22:29:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8059: Escape button should open a game menu https://git.io/JvboC 22:46:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/JvbNl 22:56:53 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/JvbNy 23:04:52 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 23:07:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8050: Scoring year is -1 when loading old savegame https://git.io/Jv7Ei 23:07:53 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8049: Suggestion: Allow Game Scripts to set company loan beyond max loan and independent of cash on hand https://git.io/Jv7Jj 23:09:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8050: Scoring year is -1 when loading old savegame https://git.io/Jv7Ei 23:31:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/Jvbxv 23:38:22 *** Zuu has quit IRC 23:57:58 *** Progman has quit IRC