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11:03:03 *** Samu has joined #openttd 11:03:38 <Samu> hello :( 11:07:42 *** Samu has quit IRC 11:07:50 <LordAro> oh dear 11:09:02 *** Samu has joined #openttd 11:18:23 <Samu> wow... 11:18:49 <Samu> were the AI/GS changes even tested in-game 11:18:55 <Samu> im already finding issues 11:24:23 <LordAro> you know where to file issues, i think? 11:25:41 <Samu> yes, but I'm in such disagreement with the changes... 11:26:22 <LordAro> disagreement alone isn't enough i'm afraid 11:26:45 <LordAro> but if you can justify why whatever it is is a bad change, then that's a valid issue 11:31:25 <Samu> the change to allowing unchangeable settings ingame when ai_dev_tools in on is a bad idea. My AI for example, expects some of the settings to be always unchangeable, or it will misbehave. An example is the way it assigns orders. It expects these ways to be set in stone from the start. If they're now going to be changeable in-game, I'm pretty certain I will have issues with order assignments. The code isn't ready to handle that. 11:32:05 <andythenorth> how do you debug AI/GS if you can't change settings? 11:32:09 <andythenorth> let's step back a bit 🙂 11:32:17 <andythenorth> ask, what is the intent? 11:32:24 <FLHerne> Samu: that's kind of the point of it being behind dev_tools though 11:32:34 <FLHerne> if you're the developer, you know which settings to not change 11:32:53 <FLHerne> it's not for general users 11:32:59 <Samu> problem may be the possibility of new found bugs being reported because of that 11:33:30 <LordAro> you're perfectly within your rights to say "not a bug, this should not be changed in game unless you know what you're doing" 11:33:38 <Samu> AIs have always had been programmed with that in-game setting to be unchangeable 11:33:53 <andythenorth> dev tools always introduce the possibility of bugs 11:33:54 <LordAro> just as we tell people the same if they've changed newgrfs in-game because they've enabled newgrf_dev 11:34:06 <LordAro> or whatever the setting is 11:34:11 <andythenorth> running with python pdb or c++ with gdb introduces the possibility of bugs 11:34:44 <andythenorth> changing preferences files under an app introduces the possibility of bugs 11:34:57 <andythenorth> occasionally I crashed OpenTTD by changing a grf under it on the filesystem 11:35:04 <LordAro> andy introduces the possibility of bugs 11:35:18 <andythenorth> precisement 11:35:34 * LordAro introduces the possibility of bugs 11:35:47 <LordAro> as i frequently do at work 11:35:53 <LordAro> broke the nightly build the other day 11:36:09 <reldred> we need to break the nightly build more often 11:36:21 <reldred> users these days don't know fear like they used to 11:36:53 <LordAro> usually it just stops running (because github workflows like to timeout) and no one notices for a week until james raises an issue 11:37:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] glx22 merged pull request #116: Fix #115: add support for {POWER_TO_WEIGHT} introduced by OpenTTD#10123 https://github.com/OpenTTD/eints/pull/116 11:37:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] glx22 closed issue #115: Error: 404 Not Found, when trying to open a string https://github.com/OpenTTD/eints/issues/115 11:38:38 <andythenorth> will I write a GS? 11:38:41 <andythenorth> are we all ready for that yet? 11:38:48 <reldred> yes absolutely 11:39:00 <reldred> firs script plz 11:39:10 <reldred> I want fine grained control of industry spawn 11:39:11 <andythenorth> might wait until TrueBrain is back active again 11:39:12 <reldred> pylons 11:39:13 <andythenorth> funnier 11:39:31 <reldred> support for toylib 11:39:33 <LordAro> will that push people to work out how to practically run multiple GS at the same time? 11:40:01 <Samu> by the way, the dropdown settings are still unable to be changed with the new rules 11:40:20 <Samu> the dropdown is enabled, but changing it has no effect 11:40:47 <LordAro> that one sounds like a bug 11:41:13 <Samu> yeah... if that's the direction the changes are going... 11:41:21 <Samu> I'm still against though 11:41:53 <LordAro> look at it this way, newgrfs cannot be changed in game, correct? 11:42:05 <andythenorth> don't need to run multiple GS 11:42:05 <Samu> now i gotta be extra careful when checking other ppls ais 11:42:19 <LordAro> in the same way, uneditable ai settings cannot be changed in game 11:42:21 <andythenorth> we already allow imports 11:42:39 <andythenorth> a python app doesn't run multiple python apps 11:42:50 <andythenorth> all mutating shared state 11:42:54 <andythenorth> we have libs 11:43:07 <LordAro> Samu: something that would be useful is some indication that a setting is "uneditable" 11:43:17 <LordAro> maybe you could PR that 11:43:33 <LordAro> idk, just an additional '*' on the setting or something 11:47:40 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: If only Open Source would pay the bills 😢 11:48:10 <andythenorth> we should charge to lift limits 11:48:22 <andythenorth> e.g. more grfs for € 11:48:25 <Samu> The GS window can be accessed in 2 different manners https://i.imgur.com/lVs8MuV.png 11:48:26 <andythenorth> in game 11:49:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: people can run multiple (python) apps though 11:49:20 <LordAro> andythenorth: for a verified checkmark 11:49:42 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 11:49:46 <FLHerne> they're not expected to find a single application that does everything they want at the same time 11:49:49 <FLHerne> emacs aside 11:51:21 <petern> Hi 11:52:17 <Samu> the reset button is not resetting settings that are unchangeable in-game which now are changeable, as I suspected 11:52:24 <petern> Salad time yet? 11:52:27 <andythenorth> LordAro: 👍 11:52:50 <andythenorth> salad? 11:53:02 <petern> Please 11:53:05 <LordAro> andythenorth: no, ✅ 11:53:12 <andythenorth> oh 11:53:18 <andythenorth> on servers and stuff? 11:53:26 <andythenorth> maybe you get more terraforming rights for $$ 11:53:43 <andythenorth> rate limited for raise/lower land, premium account is unlimited 11:53:54 <andythenorth> or a track budget 11:54:12 <andythenorth> only in MP 11:55:29 <Samu> I have yet to check what happens in the scenario editor later when i get more time 11:57:00 <glx[d]> I can't remember how eints handles pending changes on release 11:57:02 <Samu> I remember there were some strict handling of save/load configuration slots, something that is intended to never be altered 11:57:05 <petern> He's been asleep all this time 11:57:28 <andythenorth> hmm wonder if we could 'sell' enough OpenTTD one time special editions to fund a year of dev 11:57:32 <andythenorth> how many players are there? 11:57:44 <andythenorth> making it a permanent job is probably boring anyway 11:57:55 <andythenorth> needs to be more like a project 11:58:02 <Samu> if now the slots can be changed to other scripts in the editor, then the save data becomes invalid 11:58:44 <glx[d]> Already the case if AI is deleted from disk before load 11:58:45 <Samu> saving code is not prepared, i think it just re-saves the data 11:59:40 <andythenorth> how about ransoming a cool feature? 😛 11:59:51 <andythenorth> no release if we don't get € 75k 11:59:51 <glx[d]> Data is discarded after load 12:01:09 <petern> Me too 12:01:15 <Samu> need to check what happens when loading then saving in the editor, how it handles the ai saved data between edits 12:03:15 <petern> Spot someone who doesn't understand what developer tools means 12:03:38 *** JustANortherner has joined #openttd 12:03:38 <JustANortherner> andythenorth: £3.99 Morrisons Salad Bar is where its at 12:04:02 <petern> Pizza hut all you can eat 12:04:12 <andythenorth> such pizza 12:04:14 <JustANortherner> Nah, because then you're at Pizza Hut... 12:04:52 <andythenorth> I should grf 12:04:52 <petern> Always a downside 12:04:56 <andythenorth> but playing Blitz in platoon 12:05:07 <LordAro> i should get my bike out 12:05:14 <LordAro> actually feel well enough to actually try 12:05:15 <andythenorth> nice day 12:05:22 <andythenorth> did some gardening 12:05:23 <andythenorth> chopped 12:05:43 <petern> I should put my bike away 12:06:04 <JustANortherner> I should buy a bike... 12:06:09 <petern> The sun came out only at coffee stop 12:06:16 <JustANortherner> Might be more reliable than, and just as quick as, the bus... 12:07:53 <andythenorth> electric bokes 12:07:57 <andythenorth> are the future 12:07:59 <andythenorth> such boke 12:08:01 <andythenorth> pedal faster 12:08:48 <petern> For utility purposes, yes 12:09:18 <petern> Can't do 20mph average on a club ride with one, though 12:09:27 <reldred> I need to get an ebike at some point 12:10:43 <andythenorth> I'm a big advocate 12:10:49 <andythenorth> I think they're game changing 12:10:59 <andythenorth> (unless it's really bad weather) 12:12:30 <petern> Mudguards 12:12:57 <LordAro> petern: could probably do 20mph if it's flat enough 12:14:15 <reldred> hmm, 11.1km commute to work 12:14:22 <petern> You could, being a youngster 12:14:34 <petern> Perfect for ebike 12:14:42 <reldred> Slight downhill on the ride in 12:14:53 <reldred> ebike cheating on the ride home 12:14:58 <reldred> go nyoom 12:15:05 <reldred> shower at work 12:15:09 <reldred> could work could work 12:15:36 <petern> I used to cycle 25km in, and have to clean up without a shower 12:16:07 <petern> Sorry colleagues 🏓 12:16:14 <JustANortherner> I definitely wouldn't cycle all the way... 12:16:23 <JustANortherner> Mostly as my commute is over 200km each way... 12:16:34 <JustANortherner> But to the station seems a plan... 12:17:06 <petern> That's excessive whatever method 12:17:14 <andythenorth> petern: how far is the ride? 😛 12:17:55 <JustANortherner> petern: Cheaper to live in the North and work in the South, especially as I, 12:17:55 <JustANortherner> 1) only need to go to the office once a week. 12:17:55 <JustANortherner> 2) get free train travel all the way to/from the office 12:18:04 <petern> I don't even travel to parental unit as 150km is too far 12:18:06 *** jlx__ has quit IRC 12:18:10 <JustANortherner> Only thing it costs me is about 6 coffees... 12:19:18 <LordAro> 6?! 12:19:28 <JustANortherner> Yes, three each way 12:20:44 *** jlx_ has joined #openttd 12:21:04 <petern> That's cheap for 200km 12:21:36 <JustANortherner> One in Manchester when I get to the station, assuming bus to Manchester is on-time and the coffee shop ain't too busy. 12:21:36 <JustANortherner> One in Birmingham when I change trains and st