Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:18 <Tennel> only OpenSFX, and your right, i can download it manualy, but i want to use the ingame.downloader :) 00:01:15 <Zuu> I can't help you regarding what could be wrong. I've seen others having similar problems but I can't remember any case where it was resolved. 00:01:46 <Zuu> Oh, one though, do you use wifi? 00:01:58 <Tennel> nope never :) 00:02:03 <Zuu> Oh.. 00:02:15 <Zuu> There is one wifi chipset that usually gets problem with OpenTTD. 00:02:17 <sawtooth> pretty sure i downloaded it manually after one failed attempt ingame 00:02:24 <sawtooth> not using wifi either 00:02:44 <sawtooth> didn't think much about the issue at the time though 00:03:10 <Ammler> opensfx might be the biggest package 00:03:23 <Ammler> so this could be the issue 00:03:29 *** KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-228-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:03:50 <Tennel> then i think its a bug 00:04:10 <sawtooth> i tend to download around 80-90kbps or so incase it is a timeout issue of sorts 00:04:10 <Ammler> yes, but it would be nice to know how to cause it 00:04:32 <Tennel> yes thats true 00:04:51 <Rubidium> Tennel: what's your (external) IP? 00:05:31 <Tennel> Rubidium: 217.82.139.131 00:07:41 <Rubidium> Tennel: it reliably fails? 00:08:52 <Tennel> Rubidium: reproducible 00:08:55 <Ammler> (i.e. after a certain amount of progress 00:09:08 <Rubidium> Tennel: what kind of download speeds do you get? 00:09:37 <Tennel> Rubidium: 45K 00:09:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18747 /trunk/src/ai/ (6 files): -Codechange: add some constness to the AI code 00:09:50 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:53 <sawtooth> someone is worse off than me. woo! 00:10:29 <Rubidium> @calc 6.29*1024/45 00:10:30 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 143.132444444 00:11:15 <Ammler> something like a timeout after 100? 00:11:33 <Rubidium> Ammler: idle timeout is 60 seconds 00:12:24 <Ammler> Tennel: how much does it download until it breaks? 00:13:00 <Tennel> Ammler: 6,29mb 00:13:10 <sawtooth> i'm not sure i kept my original sound set around so I can't start it up and try another download :) 00:13:21 *** fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc2c9c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 00:14:05 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:15 <Ammler> oh, you said that already? 00:14:25 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has joined #openttd 00:14:28 <Tennel> right 00:14:46 *** Chrill [~chrischri@h-16-169.A149.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 00:16:08 <Ammler> is the speed 45 KByte or Bit? 00:16:54 <Tennel> KByte, did you think i'm to slow with my moldy woodmodem? :) 00:16:57 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1F067.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:11 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@47.156.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 00:17:21 <Ammler> no, because usually you mesure speed with bits 00:18:37 <Ammler> 45 Kbit might be the fastest dialin speed :-) 00:18:50 <Jara> worked for me ingame 00:19:06 <Tennel> ok, my bandwith is 400KBit 00:19:11 <Zuu> And if you want to be really pedantic, it should be a lowercase k. 00:19:18 *** fonsinchen1 [~alve@brln-4dba9c7f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:19:24 <sawtooth> actually, for me it was hanging up right towards the end now that I think about it 00:20:16 <sawtooth> just downloading from bundles.openttdcoop.org came in right at the 2 minute mark for me at 93.2K/s 00:21:08 <Ammler> Tennel: what if you download a lot newgrfs at once (>6.3MB) 00:21:35 <Rubidium> Tennel: could you try to download again? 00:21:36 <Tennel> Ammler: i'll try now 00:21:47 <Tennel> Rubidium: ok 00:21:48 <Rubidium> first only the big one please :) 00:21:55 <Tennel> ok 00:21:59 <Rubidium> I've made some modifications to the downloader to log more 00:22:24 <Tennel> now it's loading 00:22:40 <Ammler> hehe, the debug misterious 00:22:48 *** amiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:23:40 <Jara> Might also be, if you have a 'firewall or linux machine as router' where it has a 100M/b card on one side and a 1000 on the otherto cause isues, somhow the tunnel sees it then as attack and wel :P dishes the info fromt he 1000 line. Just a thing yah might one check as well. 00:23:58 <Jara> if that makes sence >..> 00:24:48 <Tennel> Jara: no, just a small router-box 00:24:51 <Eddi|zuHause> not very ;) 00:24:58 <Rubidium> Tennel: is it already dead? 00:25:10 <Tennel> Rubidium: yes 00:25:26 <Tennel> 6,03mb 00:26:07 <Rubidium> hmm, timeout is 2 minutes, not one 00:26:41 <sawtooth> if the timeout is two minutes that likely explains my few 98-99% download attempts of opensfx :) 00:26:54 <Ammler> but idle 00:27:01 <sawtooth> hmm...then who knows 00:27:06 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@host81-135-85-113.range81-135.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Nice Scotty, now beam my clothes up too!] 00:28:52 <Tennel> Rubidium: for downloading 6mb i need 133.33 sec 00:29:06 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [] 00:29:15 * Jara best not says how fast she gets it in >.> 00:30:21 <Tennel> I'm not able to download 10mb within 2 minutes 00:31:42 <Rubidium> Tennel: would you please retry again? 00:31:54 <Tennel> Rubidium: yes 00:32:04 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77AE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:32:23 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77A26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:32:29 * Jara downloaded the 3mb one for the joke; and erm,. half a second >..< 00:33:27 <sawtooth> slow internet is a price you pay for living among farms. i'm at least thankful for the DSL I do have even though it isn't as fast as I would like. 00:34:47 <Tennel> Rubidium: it seems to be working 00:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> sawtooth: i know that feeling ;) 00:37:20 <Tennel> Rubidium: done, the download, but another error, he can not unpack 00:39:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18748 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/contentserver/ (handler.cpp tcp.cpp): [MSU] -Fix: the last activity wasn't updated properly and thus one could get his/her connection killed while downloading 00:41:13 <Rubidium> Tennel: can you take a look in the content_download/data directory? 00:41:45 <Rubidium> any file ending with .gz? 00:41:51 <Tennel> Rubidium: ok, one moment, i'm downloading again 00:42:41 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "do you think it's time for plan C?" - "don't you mean plan B?" - "no... plan B never works..." 00:44:16 <Tennel> Rubidium: could it be that the downloader is adding the actuel download to the gz file? 00:45:01 <Rubidium> Tennel: might be, don't know though 00:45:30 <Tennel> Rubidium: yes he does :( 00:46:05 <Rubidium> Tennel: what OS? 00:46:25 <Tennel> Rubidium: debian 00:47:05 <Rubidium> bad Debian in that case 00:47:31 <Rubidium> OpenTTD does (network_content.cpp:396) fopen(..., "wb") 00:47:49 <Rubidium> which according to the man does "w Truncate file to zero length or create text file for writing." 00:48:17 <Tennel> yes, i now 00:48:43 <glx> +k ;) 00:48:55 <Tennel> right :) 00:49:38 <Tennel> now, my openttd, doesn't start anymore, i'll be back in a few minutes 00:49:57 *** Tennel [~andreas@pD9528B83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:51:55 <sparr> sawtooth: In my example the scenario is pf.wait_for_pbs_path=255 and pf.wait_oneway_signal=(some low number) 00:51:59 *** Tennel [~andreas@pD9528B83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 00:52:04 <Tennel> back 00:52:19 <sparr> sawtooth: I am aware that that is a Bad Idea(TM), and won't do it again. But I still want to know why that one extra signal changes the behavior of reversing. 00:52:28 <sparr> and, since it's been a few hours... 00:52:42 <sparr> Turning off reversing at one type of signal but not another can cause jams. I understand that part of this problem that I recently encountered. Can anyone clarify why the marked signal influences the decision of the to-be-jammed train to turn around? http://sparr.homeip.net/Reversing_Problem_0002.png http://sparr.homeip.net/Reversing_Problem_0002.sav 00:53:10 *** Yexo [~Yexo@38-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:53:26 *** Yexo [~Yexo@38-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 00:55:45 *** welshdragon [~mjones@147.143.254.214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:51 *** welshdragon [~mjones@147.143.254.214] has joined #openttd 00:57:17 *** DaZ [~ident-dwa@dss215.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 00:57:34 <sparr> so many things about openttd are documented poorly or not at all :( 00:57:34 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:44 <Tennel> Rubidium: everthink works fine now, thank you 00:58:19 <Rubidium> yay... another bug bites the dust 00:58:57 <Yexo> sparr: you can help writing the documentation 00:59:02 <sparr> Rubidium: does that construct look like "building crap"? 00:59:07 <sparr> Yexo: not until I understand a lot more 00:59:18 <Yexo> everything you learn and is not documented you acn document 01:00:33 <sparr> only if I am sure it's right 01:00:35 <sparr> which it rarely is 01:01:09 <Tennel> bye 01:01:18 <Rubidium> document this: at 2010-01-07 02:01 CET Rubidium went to bed 01:01:20 <sparr> I'm clueless. Then someone says "foo", when really they mean "90% of the time, foo". Then I find a counterexample and someone says "90% foo, 10% bar", when they really mean "90% foo, 9% bar, 1% baz"... 01:01:33 *** Tennel [~andreas@pD9528B83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 01:01:37 <sawtooth> Rubidium: noted 01:02:08 <sawtooth> or should i say [citation needed] 01:02:14 *** Yexo_ [~Yexo@38-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 01:02:20 *** Yexo is now known as Guest1015 01:02:20 *** Yexo_ is now known as Yexo 01:03:50 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has joined #openttd 01:04:01 <sparr> sawtooth: thanks for at least letting me know that I explained the problem somewhat sufficiently :) 01:04:08 *** DaZ_ [~ident-dwa@dst177.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:06:53 *** welshdragon [~mjones@147.143.254.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:09:17 *** Guest1015 [~Yexo@38-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:11:33 *** Bluelight [~Ivan@170.80-203-76.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 01:11:51 *** Bluelight [~Ivan@170.80-203-76.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 01:13:56 *** KenjiE20|LT [~KenjiE20@host86-166-26-81.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 01:14:11 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.22.170.238] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 01:18:44 *** Bluelight [~Ivan@170.80-203-76.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 01:19:58 *** Chrill [~chrischri@h-16-169.A149.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 01:23:47 *** welshdragon [~markmac@147.143.254.214] has joined #openttd 01:25:14 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:36:58 *** JVassie [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:40:34 <Terkhen> good night 01:40:36 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@251.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...] 01:41:07 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-74-109-46-59.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 01:55:23 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 02:09:53 *** Choco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D9DFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 02:13:07 <gathers> I just (after some time) relearned that statements like a = (b * 4 + a) / 5 can cause overflows when a is int32 and b is uint32.. wish there was a compiler warning for that 02:16:49 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D9C79.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:16:49 *** Choco-Banana-Man is now known as Coco-Banana-Man 02:18:21 *** MaMaDaS [~MaMaDaS@201.170.7.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #openttd 02:19:06 *** MaMaDaS [~MaMaDaS@201.170.7.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net with questions (2010-01-07 02:19:06)] 02:32:25 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:34:08 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:38:54 *** fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc2c9c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:39:08 <sparr> sawtooth: problem explained by someone in #openttdcoop 02:39:36 <sparr> the reversing seems to be controlled by the type of block the train is in in some cases 02:40:23 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 02:41:09 <sawtooth> i would suspect quite a few folks in #ottdcoop know about signals and related issues :) 02:41:32 <sparr> aye 02:53:41 *** fjb [~frank@84.133.223.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:24 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c83c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:17:31 *** lskdfj [LadyHawk@office01.ldhosting.com] has joined #openttd 03:17:36 *** LadyHawk [LadyHawk@office01.ldhosting.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:37 *** lskdfj is now known as LadyHawk 03:20:38 <sparr> I learned more about the mechanics of [Open]TTD from a week playing in #openttdcoop's games than in five years of playing the game alone 03:39:50 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 03:40:05 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:47:52 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D9DFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Regel Nr. 1: Jeder hört auf mein Kommando! - Regel Nr. 2: Jeder bleibt auf dem Weg! - Regel Nr. 3: ... ... Der, der bläht, als hinterster geht!] 03:50:45 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:6d1a:ec91:c210:cbf2] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:57:53 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 04:07:15 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 04:09:08 *** KenjiE20|LT [~KenjiE20@host86-166-26-81.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:23 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds] 04:38:45 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-252-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:38:55 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:40:57 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-101-5.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 04:41:00 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 05:03:24 *** Jara [~Jara@5ED47268.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: ( Signing out :: Bye All :: www.mivabe.nl )] 05:40:38 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:04:16 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 06:05:08 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 06:48:12 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:55:26 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.21.247.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 06:58:07 <De_Ghosty> ottdcoop is like ottd 06:58:10 <De_Ghosty> on steroids 06:58:27 <roboboy> hello 07:34:43 *** mib_grm8f1 [589340bc@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 07:44:15 *** mib_grm8f1 [589340bc@webchat.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 07:51:25 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:59:38 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.21.247.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 08:06:53 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:09:56 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.21.247.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 08:34:39 <sparr> De_Ghosty: it's a much denser collection of people who understand most of the game mechanics than I've seen elsewhere 08:34:41 <sparr> including here 08:47:20 *** Lapsus [~Lapsusant@H56.C207.cci.switchworks.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:15 *** JVassie [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd 08:53:48 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:55:11 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d199-126-251-5.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 09:14:23 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@251.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 09:14:30 <Terkhen> good morning 09:23:35 <andythenorth> morning Terkhen 09:27:40 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:42:57 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm68.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 09:53:57 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77A26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:00:12 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77A26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:09:30 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 10:15:25 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@251.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...] 10:19:22 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm68.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:19:56 *** fjb [~frank@84.133.223.207] has joined #openttd 10:23:41 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 10:33:02 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@251.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 10:33:45 * SpComb checking out some of his old savegames 10:33:51 <SpComb> man did I not know how to play back then 10:34:18 <SpComb> although the 1hp iron ore wagons hauling some random other wagons to passenger stations are a bit weird 10:34:24 <SpComb> not sure where I bought those 10:35:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> sounds like a missing newgrf 10:35:27 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 10:35:51 <Eddi|zuHause> probably dbsetxl, as it's the only one i know that has a 1hp engine 10:36:07 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has joined #openttd 10:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> (the real power then comes from the second wagon) 10:39:08 <SpComb> quite :) 10:42:04 *** fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc2c9c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:45:42 <andythenorth> meh, who needs a cargo chain for 'waste' anyway? 10:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit out of place, gameplay wise... 10:48:43 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77A26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:08 *** welshdragon [~markmac@147.143.254.214] has quit [Quit: welshdragon] 10:53:12 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77C08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:03:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: out of interest, why do you think waste is out of place? 11:04:00 *** DarkED2 [~J@cpe-075-176-105-070.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's no way to penalise a city if it's not being transported 11:04:41 <andythenorth> there could be with house set support....but that's a big project :| 11:05:33 <andythenorth> mostly IRL waste is moved by the city, not the transport company? 11:06:01 <SpComb> hmm, Roujin has a minimap-screenshot 11:07:07 <Eddi|zuHause> also transporting mail in cargodist is already problematic enough, i never managed that properly... 11:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not really a reason ;) 11:07:27 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: problematic in what aspect? 11:08:24 <roboboy> here in Australia Garbage removal is contradted out to private companies by the council/shire 11:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: in the aspect that there should always be a separation between a "global" network that does mass transport, and a "local" network that does distribution 11:09:11 <Eddi|zuHause> which can't be properly mapped into the game 11:10:00 <roboboy> maybe garbage would have to be a subsidy re-offered every year 11:10:11 <roboboy> or the transport of garbage 11:11:32 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: well, I assume it could 11:11:51 <SpComb> currently I'm playing with mixed trains, mostly 3:6 mail:pax 11:12:01 <SpComb> I was considering having a separate mail network next time, though 11:12:36 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2DB221.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:18:35 * SpComb fires up VirtualBox and VisualStudio 2008 11:19:38 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i mean in the sense of "when i play one type of company, i don't want to be bothered with micromanaging the other type 11:20:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and "siedler 2: die n?chste generation" always crashes on me at the same point in the mission :( 11:20:28 <SpComb> well, then just don't transport any mail? :) 11:20:38 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.21.247.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has left #openttd [] 11:21:00 <SpComb> I wonder what the differences between a passenger network and a mail network would be 11:21:28 <SpComb> or would it even work out in terms of liveries with the dbset 11:22:03 *** heffer [~felix@mue-88-130-120-136.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #openttd 11:22:24 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, so you need infrastructure sharing/subsidiaries as well? heh 11:23:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i recently learned my tram networks look way better with increased (= original) catchment area 11:25:44 <SpComb> hmm, I tend not to take catchment areas into account when building tram networks, they end up pretty dense 11:29:26 <SpComb> bah, had to reset my vm's admin password, since I couldn't figure out what it was :( 11:29:36 <SpComb> an administrator password on a virtual machine, bleh :( 11:32:57 <fjb> Use a virtual password. 11:33:37 *** nfc [nfc@cable-hvk-fe7ede00-156.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:33:47 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Which mission? No problems with the english version of Settlers 2: TNG so far... 11:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> 5th mission, i believe 11:34:13 <Zuu> SpComb: Write a sticky note on your screen with the password? 11:34:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: a virtual sticky note on the virtual screen? ;) 11:34:45 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Hmm, didn't have any problems there.. 11:34:59 *** Tennel [~andreas@pD9528C3B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 11:35:12 <Zuu> Eddi: hehe that would be something :-) 11:35:15 <SpComb> wouldn't help, because WS2008 is now asking me to activate it 11:35:45 <Zuu> Just activate it using your hotmail/msn account? 11:36:32 <Zuu> Have activated their Express edditions many many times with the same hotmail account, no problem. 11:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: main problem is, it crashes in a way that on restart, the graphics are completely messed up, so i can't play unless i restart (probably restarting X should suffice) 11:39:14 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: there is a linux version of the settlers (opensource)? 11:39:38 <Ammler> or do you use it with wine? 11:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: afair that doesn't have proper single player yet 11:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i play with wine, yes 11:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the open source version is called "return to the roots" 11:40:45 <Ammler> ah, I remember now, you already discussed that here once... 11:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> (requires data files of "Siedler 2 GOLD") 11:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... download time 1h for a 20MB file... 11:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i need a new connection :p 11:44:39 <Ammler> maybe a 2nd :-) 11:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: anyway "Die n?chste Generation" is the official 10 year anniversary remake 11:45:33 <Ammler> he, a nice reason to not making it abandon :-) 11:46:10 <Eddi|zuHause> basically the same gameplay, with porting to windows and a 3d graphics engine 11:46:29 <thingwath> http://i.imgur.com/VvY5C.png What have I done wrong? :) 11:47:00 <peter1138> 1) out of date opengfx 11:47:03 <peter1138> 2) no orders? 11:47:20 <thingwath> Train 9 should go to Jyderod, orders are correct. 11:47:40 <peter1138> 3) maybe it's the space between the platform and signal bug 11:47:53 <Ammler> 4) reset penalties 11:48:02 <peter1138> move the signals adjacent to the platforms, see if that helps 11:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: what's the value of yapf.rail_pbs_station_penalty? 11:49:08 <thingwath> 800 11:49:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the station shouldn't be reserved at all 11:49:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18749 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Fix [FS#3491]: the AI's name and version in the debug panel weren't properly centered 11:49:38 <Ammler> thingwath: if you remove the signal from the empty plattform, does it enter? 11:49:51 <thingwath> yes 11:50:08 <Ammler> you don't need the signals there anyway 11:50:14 <thingwath> hm, they are not necessary, but nice 11:50:14 <Ammler> well, not the fault 11:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: try setting the yapf.rail_pbs_cross_penalty higher than yapf.rail_curve45_penalty 11:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: or generally, keep the signals close to the station. 11:51:06 <peter1138> it seems to happen with really short trains 11:51:18 <peter1138> the penalty for them is less than the curve penalty or something 11:51:34 <Ammler> isn't there a station tile penalty? 11:52:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, but none of the station tiles is reserved, so the penalty is the same for both 11:52:04 <peter1138> yes, but neither platform is occupied, so it makes no difference 11:52:37 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: but it can only enter the empty plattform which has a too high penalty 11:52:55 <Ammler> so the train waits until the line to the other plattform is free 11:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i think the same thing would happen without the station 11:53:04 <thingwath> well, it's ok with the signals closer to the platforms 11:53:18 <Ammler> silly 11:53:25 <peter1138> yeah, because then the platform is still occupied 11:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i believe the problem is that only one tile is reserved, so the reservation penalty is less than the penalty of two curves 11:54:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18750 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3492]: the cargo payment button states weren't properly set on opening the window 11:54:48 <peter1138> hmm 11:55:02 <peter1138> wonder if occupied penalty could be affected by the direction of the train 11:55:09 <Rubidium> what Eddi|zuHause says sounds plausible 11:56:28 *** Maedhros [~maedhros@host86-164-134-114.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 11:56:38 <Ammler> what would happen, if you rise the occupied penalty? 11:56:47 <Ammler> how is that key called? 11:56:55 <Rubidium> ...crossed... 11:57:00 <Maedhros> hi one and all 11:57:12 <SpComb> hmm... are there instructions for using OpenTTD's .dmp files in VS somewhere? 11:57:14 <Rubidium> I actually lowered the 45 degree turning penalty lately 11:57:36 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: problem is you can't efficiently resolve the train from the reservation, so you'd need to store the direction in the map 11:57:52 <peter1138> oh yes 11:58:02 <SpComb> I have the .exe, .pdb and .dmp in the same dir, and opening up the .dmp, I get a partial stack trace from openttd.exe!std::_Tree, through 'operator new' and to the system 'malloc' 11:58:18 <Rubidium> SpComb: that's basically all you'll get 11:58:26 <thingwath> increasing cross_penalty hepled too 11:58:29 <SpComb> no option to feed it the openttd source? 11:58:38 <Rubidium> SpComb: click on the stack trace 11:58:48 <SpComb> although for some reason the stack trace is incomplete 11:58:52 <Rubidium> then it'll ask for a file 11:59:25 <Ammler> thingwath: what value did you have and what have you set it now? 11:59:43 *** Tennel [~andreas@pD9528C3B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:59:59 <thingwath> from 300 to 10000 :) 12:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably too much ;) 12:00:20 <SpComb> although, I'm guessing that an std::Tree with some kind of DistanceAnnotation type is probably from cargodist? 12:00:27 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: what could it hurt? 12:00:47 <thingwath> I didn't realise, that Train 9 was stopped, so I kept setting it higher and higher :) 12:00:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: trains taking really huge detours instead of waiting 12:02:03 <Ammler> maybe there should be a wait_for_new_path_on_cross 12:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: what's that supposed to do? 12:02:55 <Ammler> after a certain time of waiting, rise this penalty 12:03:16 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm68.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 12:03:19 <Ammler> so it would use another path somewhen. 12:03:32 <Ammler> time* 12:06:55 <SpComb> http://yzzrt.qmsk.net/~terom/openttd/20100107-crash-stracktrace.txt <-- there's all the stack trace that VS2008 shows me :/ 12:07:26 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.22.170.238] has joined #openttd 12:07:39 <Rubidium> are you sure it's the same version? 12:07:53 <SpComb> pretty sure 12:08:00 <Rubidium> open crash.dmp in a plain text editor and you'll find the crash.log that's generated, which contains the version 12:08:27 <SpComb> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=846254#p846254 <-- the crash.log here says r18625M 12:09:00 <SpComb> yeah, the crash.dmp also says "Version: r18625M (2)" 12:09:47 <SpComb> so I assume it's PeterT's build from http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=843125#p843125 12:09:54 <Rubidium> does the build date coincide with the build date in the executable? 12:10:21 <SpComb> "Build date: Dec 24 2009 14:30:02" - where's the .exe build data? 12:10:35 <Rubidium> i.e. grep for the "Dec 24 2009 14:30:02" on the executable. If that doesn't give a match, then it's not the same binary 12:11:08 <SpComb> Binary file cargodist_mini-pack_win32_r18625/openttd.exe matches 12:11:36 <Rubidium> then likely something went horribly wrong 12:11:47 <SpComb> stack corrupted? 12:11:55 <Rubidium> something like that 12:14:14 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Ah, I've rebooted to WIndows for playing Settlers so far. Haven't tried wine yet :-) 12:14:24 <SpComb> I play S2.EXE in dosbox 12:14:50 <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: it used to run fine, we even played multiplayer 12:15:06 <SpComb> the original S2.EXE or some newer version? 12:18:00 <SpComb> Rubidium: how useful would the crash.sav be in this situation? 12:18:07 <SpComb> the .rar is missing it 12:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hmz... can't install the patch because it doesn't find the installed game... 12:24:06 *** Goulp [~Goulp@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 12:25:25 <Rubidium> SpComb: usually useless, because it's the save that is made after the corruption. So it wouldn't reproduce it 12:29:54 <SpComb> hmmk 12:35:54 * roboboy ponders trying FIRS 12:37:20 <SpComb> pity that cargodist manages to cause so many random crashes and assertions 12:37:51 <SpComb> fonsinchen (?) still has some work to do :( 12:42:42 <peter1138> it's trunk-ready(tm) then? ;) 12:44:17 <Ammler> SpComb: create monthly autosaves 12:44:53 <SpComb> well, it should be in trunk as an optional feature 12:45:15 <SpComb> but I think that if it was on by default, it would confuse new players a little too much... 12:45:26 <SpComb> Ammler: a month is a long time when playing with 4x daylength :) 12:45:31 <Ammler> not just newbies 12:45:38 <fonsinchen> so, what is wrong? Why don't I see any crash reports in the forums thread? 12:45:43 <SpComb> but yes, I do, and I mostly use them to recover from crashes... train crashes >_> 12:45:58 <SpComb> fonsinchen: well, seems they're getting pre-filtered through my thread now 12:46:18 <fonsinchen> how can I fix the problems if I don't know about them? 12:46:27 <SpComb> fonsinchen: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=843726#p843726 + http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=846406#p846406 12:46:33 <SpComb> fonsinchen: I'll tell you from now on, then :) 12:46:42 <Ammler> SpComb: doesn't the daylength patch also add a new autosave option? 12:46:52 <SpComb> Ammler: not mine, no, it probably should 12:47:19 <Ammler> weekly and daily :-) 12:48:09 <SpComb> weekly 12:48:20 <fonsinchen> Did you change any details about cargodist in your patch? For example the upper limit of short_path_saturation? 12:49:54 <SpComb> fonsinchen: no, it's purely vanilla cargodist 12:50:04 <SpComb> well, I mean 12:50:17 <SpComb> the patches there are pretty simple, they shouldn't influence cargodist 12:50:52 <SpComb> they just tweak the gameplay in terms of some side effects 12:51:41 <SpComb> but no direct changes to the cargodist code 13:12:19 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@251.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...] 13:12:24 *** fjb [~frank@84.133.223.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:53 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm68.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:17:36 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@51.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 13:24:02 *** mib_mnz08i [589340bc@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:26:46 *** mib_mnz08i [589340bc@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [] 13:42:37 <Yexo> http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/survey_camp.png <- an industry as an airport, industry by andythenorth 13:44:00 <Forked> interesting. Cities own the airports while companies just move the passengers.. perhaps just buy your own hangar or something 13:51:10 <gathers> fonsinchen, the patches on http://fickzoo.com/fonsinchen/patches/ doesn't seem to be generated correctly anymore, I see empty files. Just thought I'd let you know in case you'd missed it 13:51:29 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:53:33 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 14:04:44 <Belugas> hi hi 14:08:56 <Zuu> ho ho Belugas 14:10:22 *** ecke [root@213.195.231.53] has joined #openttd 14:15:19 <fonsinchen> gathers, certain files are empty on purpose. If the new branch doesn't add anything to its dependencies the patch is empty. 14:15:55 <gathers> fonsinchen, ah I see, sorry then :) 14:15:56 <fonsinchen> This is the case for "cargodist_xyz.diff". If you want an all-in-one patch for cargodist, you can get it in the folder against_trunk 14:17:42 <gathers> I just pull your git tree, I had missed the against_trunk folder 14:19:03 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:20:34 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77C08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:49 <Ammler> [15:15] <Yexo> [14:42:37] http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/survey_camp.png <- an industry as an airport, industry by andythenorth <-- that is with your airport branch or trunk? 14:21:00 <Belugas> trunk of course... 14:21:04 <Belugas> what else :S 14:21:17 <Ammler> ok :-) 14:21:30 <Belugas> hehehehehe 14:22:20 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77C08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:22:31 <Yexo> I'd upload the grf, but forgot to ask andythenorth for permission, not that I expect it to be a problem 14:25:30 <Ammler> you have permission, andy's work is under GPL 14:27:42 <Ammler> well, FIRS is for sure 14:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it's supposed to say that in every file ;) 14:27:59 <Ammler> :-) 14:28:07 <Yexo> FIRS may be, but I didn't use firs 14:28:14 <Yexo> I used part of FIRS that any send me 14:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the s2 patch didn't help :( 14:28:24 <Yexo> and as I didn't get any licence with that, technically it's not under the gpl 14:28:29 <Belugas> waaaa!!! fucking nice extract!!! 14:28:40 <Belugas> oops... sorry.. wrong channel 14:28:41 <Yexo> now I could of course strip the relevant part from firs myself, but why go through that trouble? 14:31:29 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:56 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 14:32:01 <Ammler> well, it looked like the survey camp from FIRS, sorry then... 14:32:58 <Yexo> Ammler: it IS the survey camp from FIRS 14:33:06 <Yexo> I just didn't base my work on FIRS :p 14:33:46 <Ammler> but my statement is based on that, that is why I am sorry ;-) 14:34:11 <Yexo> no need for that, you couldn't possible know 14:35:54 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:5c85:14f1:5185:c6a0] has joined #openttd 14:35:57 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 14:38:17 <roboboy> how do I turn on the PBS debug reservation highlights? 14:39:17 <Yexo> advanced settings->interface->display options->show reserved tracks: on 14:39:25 <roboboy> ok 14:39:28 <roboboy> thanx 14:44:12 *** kasuga [~kasuga@188.122.224.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:47:34 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Quit: AS A VAGINA ONCE SAID: <yorick> SOMEONE BAN HIM] 14:49:15 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #openttd 14:52:43 <Yexo> is there an industry that uses the animation callbacks available under gpl? 14:53:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's no use... the mission crashes every time about 15 minutes in :( 14:54:06 <roboboy> gnight 14:56:17 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: which mission? 14:56:19 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1FBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:56:33 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 14:56:37 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: Siedler II - Die n?chste Generation, mission 5 14:58:10 <SpComb> well, ulimited play is where it's at anyways :P 14:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i never ever finished the original siedler 2 missions, i wanted to try these... 14:59:21 <SpComb> hmm, I wonder how far I've played them 14:59:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... someone says set direct sound to emulation... 15:00:02 *** kasuga [~kasuga@85.114.161.167] has joined #openttd 15:07:35 *** Zuu [Leif@nl-152-56.netlogon.liu.se] has joined #openttd 15:10:34 *** heffer [~felix@mue-88-130-120-136.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:12:45 <SpComb> I guess I never finished mission 5 either 15:13:44 *** thingwath [~thingwath@88.83.164.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:22 *** thingwath [~thingwath@88.83.164.57] has joined #openttd 15:26:49 *** Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-192-116-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 15:27:01 *** xorkrus2 [xorkrus2@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org] has joined #openttd 15:29:10 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.210.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:13 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [] 15:31:49 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.210.32] has joined #openttd 15:37:19 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 15:43:33 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c487.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:44:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77C08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:50 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77C08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:02:18 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm68.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 16:06:29 *** Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-192-116-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:20:46 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 16:30:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18751 /trunk/src/crashlog.cpp: -Codechange: also log the zlib version in the crash log 16:36:50 *** Zuu [Leif@nl-152-56.netlogon.liu.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:39:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18752 /trunk/src/engine_gui.cpp: -Codechange: unduplify some code 16:40:41 <Eddi|zuHause> why does no code ever get untriplified? 16:42:43 <gathers> I think it might be that you can represent untriplication as repeated unduplifications..? thus you only need unduplification 16:45:17 <Rubidium> yes, untriplification is just recursive unduplication 16:48:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but you could save one step 16:49:24 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-192-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:50:43 <gathers> but then someone will request unquadruplication, unquintuplication etc.. where will it end? 16:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> at the unmyriadification 17:03:12 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77C08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77C08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:07:22 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@212-149-205-119.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 17:09:04 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm68.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:21 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 17:14:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18753 /trunk/src/lang/ (33 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: Max TE was incorrect in the engine preview 17:19:20 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 17:26:58 *** Johnmit [~John@93-97-107-116.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:27:23 * Johnmit prods Rubidium 17:32:08 <Johnmit> admittedly this will probably interest michi_cc as well 17:33:18 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:34:52 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d199-126-251-5.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 17:42:21 <Yexo> Johnmit: you might get a responsive if you tell them what it's about, or ask your question directly 17:42:37 <Johnmit> ah yes 17:42:39 <Johnmit> good point 17:43:14 <Johnmit> tis about the good ole mac os x port and a possible temporary solution to the problem of making builds 17:43:25 <Yexo> there is no problem making the builds 17:43:33 <Yexo> there is a problem that no-one is fixing the bugs 17:44:01 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd 17:44:25 <Johnmit> really? i thought the compile farm was causing a few of the problems? 17:45:12 <Yexo> building it on the cf causes some trouble, but that's not the reason the support has stopped 17:45:41 <Yexo> and several people have already offered to donate a mac for the cf, so that's no real problem 17:46:47 <Yexo> have you read this post completely? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=820024#p820024 17:46:57 <Yexo> that explains the problems of not having an active mac os x developer 17:47:48 <Johnmit> anyway, the suggestion was to create a topic of 'community mac os x builds' to continue providing os x builds, but highlighting the fact they are not official 17:48:27 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@51.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...] 17:48:59 <Zuu> Also have an overlook of the wiki and see what OSX information it contains. 17:49:03 <Johnmit> yes I have Yexo - and I can see the problem. However I still think not providing 1.0 builds in any shape will do more harm 17:49:14 <Yexo> maybe 17:49:23 <Zuu> I mean there might be places where you want to point out the availability of unofficial builds for OS X. 17:49:25 <Yexo> but it does signify the problem, so maybe that attracts a developer 17:49:45 <Yexo> but I have no problem with a forum topic 17:50:04 <Yexo> a sticky in the development forum for example would be fine by me 17:50:09 <Yexo> Rubidium: any comments? 17:50:17 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@host81-135-85-113.range81-135.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:50:29 <Johnmit> but equally, having a forum topic highlighting it even more will perhaps attract more OS X players, and one might just be willing to help... 17:50:40 <Rubidium> Johnmit: "OpenTTD is buggy" coming from lots of OS X users because there is not Mac maintainer does OpenTTD harm; not providing Mac OS X binaries only harms Mac OS X users. 17:50:43 <Zuu> development forum? Isn't it better to have it in general forum if it targets normal users? 17:50:49 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@249.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 17:51:32 <Johnmit> indeed Zuu, and the current 'Future of Mac OS X port' topic is starting to get builds posted in it 17:51:36 <Yexo> Zuu: placing it in the development forum makes extra clear it's "in development", not official 17:52:15 <Johnmit> and I can see the current topic descending into a random mess of builds, bug reports and bug fixes 17:52:22 <Rubidium> given that we have already been yelling about it for like 4 months without any real progress, and occasionally been talking about it for the two years before that... the Mac OS X port's quality is on a landslide 17:53:34 <Rubidium> even so, 0.7.5 is not supported on 10.6 17:53:37 <Johnmit> but it looks like there is now a little progress in the correct direction. and I have not seen any specific bugs on my OS X in a while, indeed the few graphical problems that were there have now gone... 17:53:55 <Rubidium> Johnmit: open known-bugs.txt 17:55:05 <Rubidium> Johnmit: occasionally people attempting to fix a bug does not help much; there have been *many* attempts at fixing OS X bugs, yet only a few of them seem to succeed 17:55:39 <Rubidium> and even then, a little later, we get flamed because the fix isn't the right fix and breaks other things 17:58:37 <Johnmit> and you don't think highlighting it as 'community' effort rather then an 'official' effort would help (or at least reduce the flaming)? 18:00:02 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffade.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:01:35 <Rubidium> Johnmit: that information gets lost *very* quickly 18:01:42 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@cpc3-pool3-0-0-cust999.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 18:02:43 <Rubidium> e.g. http://www.macgamefiles.com/detail.php?item=19315 just links directly to the files on our servers, so any information on the website about it being a community build doesn't get to the user 18:03:00 <Johnmit> well, yes. the internet does have its idiots - just like the UK in snow... 18:03:01 <Rubidium> *especially* because the information on that page is years old 18:03:15 <jonty-comp> Johnmit: as in most people 18:03:17 <jonty-comp> :p 18:03:24 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@cpc3-pool3-0-0-cust999.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 18:04:10 <Rubidium> so some sort of semi-official build will still be seen by most of the mac users as official build 18:04:17 <Johnmit> I hadn't thought of the direct linking problem - however i wouldn't host the files on openttd 18:04:30 <jonty-comp> Rubidium: not if it isn't hosted on openttd.org 18:04:33 <jonty-comp> well, hmm 18:04:49 <jonty-comp> for instance, silverex.org has 'unofficial' builds of windows xchat, and that seems to work 18:05:25 <Johnmit> and admittedly making it a sticky would make it more 'official' and perhaps not help... 18:05:38 <Rubidium> jonty-comp: Johnmit's point is, at least I think it is, to still release binaries via OpenTTD's website 18:05:44 <Johnmit> nope 18:05:45 <jonty-comp> oh 18:05:47 <Johnmit> via the forums 18:06:13 <jonty-comp> but then to host it somewhere else would need someone dedicated to 'run' the port 18:06:28 <jonty-comp> and then they might as well just join the official team anyway 18:06:34 <Johnmit> at most OpenTTD would have "MacOS X is not officially supported by the developers, but some forum users have some version you can use over here" 18:07:03 <Rubidium> Johnmit: any idea how long that list would become? 18:07:08 <Rubidium> cargodist? 18:07:12 <Rubidium> daylength? 18:07:16 <Rubidium> 32bpp zoom? 18:07:25 <Rubidium> the different patch packs? 18:07:41 <jonty-comp> well, they're up to the respective developers 18:08:04 <Johnmit> as in the list of versions in the topic, or the list of patchpacks you would have to link to? 18:08:24 <Rubidium> the list of custom builds we have to link to 18:08:38 <jonty-comp> *have* to? 18:09:48 <Rubidium> yes 18:09:58 <Johnmit> i would have thought you could easily only link to macosx builds, as they would be 'clean' trunk builds - and the reason is somewhat different 18:10:29 <Johnmit> failing that even a 'MacOSX is not officially supported, please see the wiki for more info" would be sufficient and put information there 18:10:55 <Rubidium> but the iphone isn't officially supported either 18:11:09 <jonty-comp> nobody ports daylength to the iphone either 18:11:15 <Rubidium> should we link those binaries too? They're after all also 'clean' trunk builds 18:11:38 <Rubidium> or maemo, or pocketpc 18:12:02 <jonty-comp> the pocketpc port smells anyway, my PDA doesn't have enough RAM :( 18:12:42 <peter1138> if someone donates a mac to me, i'll investiage ;p 18:12:47 <peter1138> also, investigate 18:12:48 <Johnmit> point taken 18:13:14 <jonty-comp> you should set up a donations fund to buy peter1138 a Mac! 18:13:19 * jonty-comp would send ?1 18:13:29 <Rubidium> oh... peter1138 is going to do the Mac port? 18:13:38 <jonty-comp> doesn't nessecerily have to be a brand new Mac, just one that runs SL 18:13:40 <peter1138> i might not investigate much ;p 18:14:00 *** Maedhros [~maedhros@host86-164-134-114.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:14:35 <Johnmit> Rubidium - would you object to just the topic, and not linked to 'officially' 18:14:42 <Johnmit> except perhaps the wiki 18:14:46 *** Goulp [~Goulp@main.goulp.net] has quit [Quit: PACKET_SERVER_SHUTDOWN] 18:15:07 <Johnmit> as in a topic combining home made mac osx builds 18:15:08 <Rubidium> no, I only think you're only doing the Mac port harm in the long run 18:16:37 <Johnmit> hmmm 18:17:37 <Rubidium> like the guy posting 64 bits intel binaries without some of the libraries 18:18:23 <Johnmit> naturally the other option would be to take on the mac port - but that would need a book 18:18:34 <Johnmit> "maininting a mac port for dummies' :P 18:18:42 <peter1138> that's the only option 18:18:53 <Johnmit> if you write the book.... 18:19:12 <Rubidium> not to mention that the 64 bits version is slower than the 32 bits version; Bjarni did some testing and IIRC the 64 bits binary for G5 was 20% slower than the equivalent 32 bits build and 10% slower than the 32 bits build that also works on G3 processors 18:19:15 <peter1138> we could provide the builds, but that didn't get any attention 18:19:40 <peter1138> therefore, others providing unofficial builds is not useful 18:20:04 <Johnmit> you think even a more unofficial attempt with a more 'community' effort of providing builds and bug fixes woulnd't help, at least as a short term measure? 18:20:14 <Rubidium> for what it's worth, the nightlies didn't have Mac builds for over a week before someone actually noticified us 18:20:45 <Johnmit> i suspect those of use that use nightlies compile are selfs, so wouldn't... 18:20:59 <Johnmit> *compile our selfs 18:21:08 <Rubidium> Johnmit: short term it will help; some people being happy there is a binary they can download, long term... that's a completely different story 18:21:23 <jonty-comp> I say you drop support, and if someone wants to take it upon themselves to do it themselves, good for them 18:21:33 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:21:37 <Johnmit> jonty-comp - they have dropped support 18:21:43 <jonty-comp> well, good 18:21:52 <jonty-comp> keep it dropped then 18:21:58 * jonty-comp is still on the first page of the epic thread 18:22:33 <Johnmit> or at least it is dropped for all intents and purposes, can't remember if that was 'official' or not... 18:23:15 <Rubidium> Johnmit: with ~12.5% of the downloads being nightlies and 6% of the downloads being Mac, there should be about a dozen downloads of Mac nightlies every day 18:24:40 <__ln> http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/nov/12/plane-crash-tv-channel-4 18:25:45 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.21.247.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 18:27:55 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:29:58 <Zuu> If you make unofficial mac builds (which it seams is not really welcome), perhaps add a message box that shows when it starts that says that it is an unofficial build. That said, most users will not really read that dialog and it will have the same problem that it helps users in the short term but might not do so in the long term. 18:32:18 <peter1138> __ln: "It will give us unprecedented answers to the big question: how can we make air crashes more survivable?" 18:32:38 <peter1138> __ln, more like "how can we spend lots of money blowing big things up" 18:32:51 <andythenorth> evening 18:33:10 <Rubidium> but... aircrashed can be made much more survivible by simply turning around the chairs, so you're facing towards the tail of the plane 18:33:12 <__ln> both combined is even more bang for buck 18:33:30 <Rubidium> something like 30% IIRC 18:35:07 <Johnmit> Rubidium - depends on the crash, but yes - the human body can survive higher gs forces that way 18:36:00 <Rubidium> just means the aircraft can't fly with their nose pointing up (you'd fall out of the chair), so it can't use it's body as wing, so it needs more fuel to stay in the air, so tickets cost more... and that's when the idea gets shot 18:38:02 <Rubidium> they're all trying to keep stuff as cheap as they can within the rules set by the government 18:43:33 <Johnmit> errrrrr.... 18:43:36 <Johnmit> "The idea for the programme grew out of the crash of a British Airways Boeing 777 at Heathrow airport in January last year." 18:43:49 <Johnmit> so nothing at all to do with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Impact_Demonstration 18:43:59 <Johnmit> when NASA did the exact same thing in 1984? 18:45:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r18754 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) 18:45:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 60 changes by kasakg 18:45:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 57 changes by UnderwaterHesus 18:45:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell 18:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx 18:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by junho2813 18:51:27 <__ln> nothing 19:03:52 *** werton [~werton@static243-159-174.adsl.no] has joined #openttd 19:07:59 *** JVassie [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:10:15 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@249.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...] 19:11:38 <Yexo> George: you'd make debugging your problems _a lot_ easier if you could provide a small grf that demonstrates the problem 19:12:11 <Yexo> for example for FS#3495 a grf with only a single house that only checks house var 65, and only the callback for building is enabled 19:13:12 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@38.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 19:13:15 <Zuu> Yexo: Perhaps there should be something written to AI Log as well as gamelog if the AI in the savegame can't be found and a random AI is picked? 19:13:35 <andythenorth> Yexo: you have my permission to publish the grf ;) 19:13:42 <Yexo> ok, thanks :) 19:13:44 * andythenorth reading thegrebs 19:14:07 <andythenorth> gpl it if you want to put a license.txt with it 19:14:15 <andythenorth> otherwise release it under the famous 'no license' 19:14:29 <Yexo> I'd prefer gpl 19:14:58 <andythenorth> that's fine by me 19:15:15 <andythenorth> post the source with it? 19:15:17 <Yexo> I've also abused the wind turbine as sea airport where ships can stop 19:15:51 <frosch123> oh, do they load H2 there? 19:16:14 <Yexo> it's not an industry 19:16:24 <Yexo> that's the next step, code that as industry 19:16:33 <andythenorth> Yexo: that's neat, because I needed to put a wind turbine at sea :) 19:16:37 <Yexo> or maybe I should first enable the statemachine callback for ships 19:16:52 <frosch123> :) 19:17:16 <frosch123> is it a different callback, or does it have to figure out the vehicletype itself? 19:17:27 <Yexo> I was planning on using the same callback 19:17:39 <Yexo> vehicletype can be found by var 80 19:17:40 <frosch123> yeah, might be more flexible 19:17:48 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:19:48 *** JVassie [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:21:34 * andythenorth cloning new airports hg repo 19:21:40 *** JVassie [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [] 19:27:15 *** JVassie [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:27:25 <Zuu> If I want to pause the game from some code where _current_company is an AI player I though I could temporary set _current_company to _local_company and use a DoCommand to pause the game. But either that isn't working or I'm trying to execute the DoCommand in the wrong way. 19:27:26 <Zuu> http://paste.openttd.org/220912 19:28:07 <Zuu> (I've also tried with the commented out DoCommand line) 19:29:36 <Yexo> * @param p2 1 pauses, 0 unpauses this mode 19:29:46 <Yexo> p2 = 0 in your code, so you try to unpause the game 19:29:57 <Zuu> Oh, thank you. 19:30:27 <Zuu> My first DoCommand. :-) 19:30:38 <Yexo> it doesn't matter what _current_company actually is 19:30:46 <Yexo> so you can leave those lines out 19:30:50 <Zuu> Ok, then I remove those lines. 19:30:54 <George> Yexo: FS#3495 - file added, but some other starnge bug appears - the house is not drawn 19:32:17 <Yexo> thanks George 19:32:22 <Yexo> and I'll find a way around the not drawing 19:39:28 <George> Yexo: FS#3495 - one more file 19:39:41 <Zuu> Oh, nice. The break on string now works. Now it is "just" to fix a graphical issue and possible add a label before the text box and maybe a "continue" button after the text box. 19:39:58 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 19:42:03 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:42:42 *** slas [~chatzilla@25.201.216.81.static.s-o.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #openttd 19:48:08 *** Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-192-116-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 19:48:54 *** dragonhorseboy [~zerovnc@modemcable246.69-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 19:49:08 <dragonhorseboy> any of you ever used that 'reduced passenger payment' grf? 19:51:02 <DJNekkid> no, use 2cc set instead to counteract that :P 19:51:53 <DJNekkid> hehe 19:52:59 <dragonhorseboy> do you even know where the mail parameter is or the grf was never ever actually finished? 19:54:28 *** kasuga [~kasuga@85.114.161.167] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:29 *** kasuga [~world@85.114.161.167] has joined #openttd 19:55:22 *** kasuga [~world@85.114.161.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:45 *** TrueBrain_ [~truebrain@145.118.72.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:55:47 <dragonhorseboy> and btw djnekkid I kinda liked the metro side of 2cc but otherwise think they just heaped WAY too many rail/erail locomotives in it for any random single year 19:56:03 <dragonhorseboy> ^_^ 19:58:00 <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid but of course .. couple with that most players keep leaving ottd to 'normal' for towngrowth I always think that the only real rail pax grf for any MP's is japanset 19:59:03 <DJNekkid> dragonhorseboy: i am the programmer of the 2cc set :P 19:59:16 *** edeca [~david@lenny.lionserver.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Reboooot] 19:59:24 <DJNekkid> or coder or what you prefer 19:59:52 *** kasuga [~osaka@85.114.161.167] has joined #openttd 20:00:15 <DJNekkid> :D 20:00:23 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy has an interesting point 20:00:38 <andythenorth> I've been trying to figure out for newgrf sets: is more better? 20:00:38 <dragonhorseboy> and it is ? andythenorth 20:01:29 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth heh well some trainsets I do like but 2cc seem to be something that seem too overheaped.. I mean start a new random map in any 1920-to-2000 year that comes off top of your head and look at the rail buy list.. likely its 20+ locos and most are similar 20:01:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess you need to divide the more by gametime 20:02:13 <dragonhorseboy> dbsetxl does kinda have a bit long mix during the 50-60's but thats reasonable seeing they were just about switching from steam/electric to more variety of diesel/electric for a while before the buy list becomes short again 20:02:52 <andythenorth> the US sets have a blitz in the 50s-60s, then it's just a couple of SD70s etc from about 1990 onwards 20:02:59 <Terkhen> I prefer newgrfs with a small amount of vehicles, I tend to get lost with larger ones 20:03:20 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth.. heh well yeah 50-60's seem to be a typical period of experinmentals and 'many new fleets to replace worn out one' 20:03:25 <Johnmit> depends how you play andy 20:03:28 <frosch123> Terkhen: but you would not have that problem, if they were available shorter :p 20:03:51 <andythenorth> with HEQS I tried to space out the dump trucks carefully 20:03:52 <Johnmit> if you are strictly realistic, then you need more 20:04:07 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth but of course in the 50's the usa diesels were kinda still built like steam locomotives where you had different classes for different jobs .. it took a while to finally start using more uniform general purpose locomotives 20:04:38 <andythenorth> hmmm FP9? 20:04:39 <DJNekkid> dragonhorseboy: there are an upcomeing 2.0 of the 2cc set btw.. 20:04:59 <Johnmit> if you don't really care about traction efforts and what not then a small quantity is perhaps better 20:05:10 <andythenorth> I also keep asking myself if I should put a parameter on HEQS to hide the bulldozers by default... 20:05:24 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth.. FP9's? well that would be a hard one .. depends on how its geared in first place 20:05:45 <dragonhorseboy> FP9's were usually passengers but if regeared you could find them on shorter freights somehow 20:05:56 <DJNekkid> and in version 2.0 will more engines go out of production, and wagons will have a economical speedlimit 20:06:17 <DJNekkid> so it will encourage people to use slower engines etc... 20:06:24 <dragonhorseboy> the F40PH were ordered as passenger power but as they start getting less needed (replaced by modern powers) many of them could end up on freight duty 20:06:58 <andythenorth> in Pikka's UK sets there are not many engines, it's kind of fine 20:06:58 <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid maybe you need to re-spec the Hudson because its too easy to only use these alone on any random trains due to its TE 20:07:09 *** TrueBrain_ [~truebrain@145.118.72.64] has joined #openttd 20:07:20 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth well I don't like ukrs alone on my own to be honest 20:07:33 <andythenorth> really? 20:08:59 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth .. especially could someone explain to me why I have to make a quite long platform+train just to be able to carry only 360 passengers when in most other grfs this could be quite easily halved in length with no capacity loss 20:09:00 <Terkhen> I prefer "lite versions"... I got bored of old wagons new cargos but I can't find a simple but not too much train grf to replace it 20:09:46 <dragonhorseboy> neverminding 'commuter' classed consists in japanset where 800 passengers can board and dislodge in only a few quick days instead of taking a long time 20:10:03 <Terkhen> I guess I should have a few test games 20:10:41 <DJNekkid> dragonhorseboy: note on the Hudson is ... noted :) 20:10:50 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: Pikka and DanMacK artificially reduce capacities - it helps those of us who like to see longer trains 20:11:01 <andythenorth> it is a pain in the arse for balancing against though 20:11:05 *** Tennel [~andreas@88.150.10.254] has joined #openttd 20:11:10 <andythenorth> :D 20:11:16 *** kasuga [~osaka@85.114.161.167] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:48 * Terkhen wonders how long his game will be until he thinks of something new to code 20:11:49 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth the problem is ottd towns don't understand this so its totally useless trying to really do pax with ukrs at all 20:12:20 <dragonhorseboy> especially when it seem to require doubleheaded eurostars with 20+tiles long station platforms when the same thing in japanset can use slow rolling stocks on 6-tiles stations 20:12:45 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy I think that's kind of the point....longer trains = preferred by some of us ;) 20:12:47 <dragonhorseboy> or even in canset its still a short station length for high station loads 20:12:56 <andythenorth> it's just a visual thing as far as I know 20:13:09 <DJNekkid> or a TGV Duplex :P 20:13:14 <DJNekkid> and even fast :) 20:13:27 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth..so how do you EVEN make space-reasonable junction for 21-tiles-long trains spaced only a few tiles apart headspace? 20:13:34 <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid I want slow actually 20:14:00 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: I think I'm the wrong kind of player for that question... 20:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: i think the real answer to that should be the game enforcing a higher distance between trains 20:15:17 <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid the only real times I'll buy tgv's is for when its for a decidated sparsely-signalled highspeed line to connect nonstop between two large cities to fill in people that didn't want to use the always-stopping stocks 20:15:29 <dragonhorseboy> eddi or using a different grf in case of me ;) 20:15:58 <DJNekkid> dragonhorseboy: thats what they are for :) 20:16:03 <Hirundo> Exactly, you're not forced to use a NewGRF you don't like, this isn't north korea 20:16:06 <dragonhorseboy> if using ukrs only for freight (aside to mail which isn't as bad too) its ok for a grf 20:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: anway, i typically use a patch, not a grf, to reduce passenger generation 20:16:36 <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid but my tgv usually only can share 5-10% of the station loading .. the remaining always pile up into the frequent length-short stopper trains ;) 20:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: the grf cannot influence houses from other grfs, for example 20:17:43 <DJNekkid> do you play with cargod(e/i)st ? 20:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally 20:18:10 <dragonhorseboy> heh hmm one time I managed to get a very busy japan commuter network (basically purely 90/99km/h rated 'commuter' classed emus) going .. it was just crazy when finally done, what with almost no free headspace anywhere not even at the 4-way junctions 20:18:25 <dragonhorseboy> almost every train always were fully loaded to the hilt without asking 20:19:04 <dragonhorseboy> sure earned way too much money (footnote: almost all stations were only 4x4 ones) 20:20:36 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth that reminds me of something tho... 20:21:03 <andythenorth> ? 20:21:31 <dragonhorseboy> one time I managed to run three EM2 (it was the listless ukrs expansion grf) on a single long tanker train (half oil, half plastic from the refinery) over 200+ tiles distance 20:21:34 <peter1138> dragonhorseboy, have you ever been on a british train? ;) 20:21:47 <dragonhorseboy> someone mentioned "american style in british?? bloody hell!!!" lol :P 20:22:22 <dragonhorseboy> it was I think 30+ cars (equally split to both cargo types) each on these four trains hehe 20:22:48 <andythenorth> meh 20:23:02 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendip_Rail 20:23:18 <fonsinchen> SpComb: In http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=46399 you say you can load the dump from that crash report. Can you tell me which binary it belongs to? 20:23:20 <dragonhorseboy> course if it had been a non-ukrs grf it might had just been one single heavy freight electric loco instead. thats for another day tho 20:23:38 <SpComb> fonsinchen: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=843125#p843125 20:23:48 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: sorry, not a useful link I posted above 20:24:23 <fonsinchen> thanks 20:24:29 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I always did wondered what was the eventual problems with the articulated steam locomotives that british roostered for a short time 20:24:43 <dragonhorseboy> both LMS and LNER as I think I recall .. one class was U1 20:26:16 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: oh hey, we were talking about my game earlier: http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/1987-giant.png#8731:6842:-1 20:27:21 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?17,1564189 20:28:33 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:29:32 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: http://www.hondawanderer.com/56034_56048_Hungerford_Common_1984.htm 20:30:51 <Zuu> Ooops, OpenTTD was not so happy when I removed the scrollbar :-) 20:31:35 *** kasuga [~osaka@81.28.163.84] has joined #openttd 20:33:22 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb nice to see someone actually uses ISR somewhat properly 20:33:35 <dragonhorseboy> and I see you do same farm style as me .. grain+livestock on each platform 20:36:17 <Ammler> SpComb, is the script for the giant screenshot viewer somewhere available? 20:36:47 <dragonhorseboy> btw spcomb if this is the kind of network you players always create I so want to join into the game when you upload a new server :D 20:37:16 <dragonhorseboy> its not exactly 100% same styles as what I often do but thats not the point heh 20:37:50 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: Industrial stations? Well mostly, I built the passenger network, and then my friend built the freight stuff (under my guidance) 20:38:18 <SpComb> Ammler: sure, the source code isn't secret - http://hg.qmsk.net/pngtile/ - but I can't really promise anything as regards it yet 20:39:25 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: and that map was generated with zero industries 20:40:13 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb heh well occassional freight isn't that bad I'm sure ;) 20:40:26 <dragonhorseboy> considering it often can stay seperated from the busy pax lines without being completely detached 20:41:00 <SpComb> yeah, it's mostly separate with some overlap 20:41:41 <dragonhorseboy> btw do you use electrification all the times or its a mix of diesel haul/mu? 20:41:53 <SpComb> slow electrification 20:42:01 <SpComb> the northern mainline there is still diesel 20:42:24 <SpComb> recycled V200's from the F-train services in the '60s 20:42:45 <dragonhorseboy> heh thats what I thought.. I was thinking "hmm decidated freight lines this time?" till I saw the first non-electrified station and had to look some more to then sight these 20:42:54 <dragonhorseboy> V200s...hey that reminds me of something else.. 20:43:14 <SpComb> there's plenty of non-electrified track left around the edges 20:43:46 <andythenorth> opinions? a FIRS 'help' industry - 1 per map, uses industry window to explain basics of FIRS 20:44:03 <dragonhorseboy> the last two model train magazines I picked up .. one of them was a nice O layout using mostly Lenz stuffs (with two Kiss) and one of the loco used was a V36 20:44:24 <dragonhorseboy> looked like a nice small diesel loco for both passenger (old 2-axle coaches) or freights in one. too bad dbsetxl didn't include that one 20:44:28 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1FBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:45 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb I did kinda like the V100 and V200's tho of course 20:45:12 <SpComb> V100s only really work well for flatter lines 20:45:16 <dragonhorseboy> seem to rarely use them grf-wise myself tho 20:46:01 <SpComb> V200's are great, the V200+F is a major service - V160's are kind of meh because they're identical to the V200 - only really ended up buying them to replace the V200's once they started growing too old 20:46:17 <SpComb> or for other minor non-electrified services 20:46:25 <dragonhorseboy> btw spcomb if you didn't know .. the first diesel-hydraulic that was tried, only one was built and it didn't have much working life 20:46:32 <dragonhorseboy> hmm hang on I think it was in the same mag..one sec.. 20:46:46 <SpComb> V160? 20:47:03 * andythenorth lost in the train chat :P 20:47:38 <SpComb> the V160's in the DBSet, it's a silly little diesel that you get before the war with only, like, 15 years of lifetime 20:48:56 <Terkhen> andythenorth: how much text can you put there? I think a reference to a README would be better 20:49:33 <andythenorth> ok, so imagine this: you're a Bananas player. Where is the readme.txt? 20:49:54 <andythenorth> I don't even know where bananas puts my grfs 20:50:00 <andythenorth> I could search :) 20:50:07 <dragonhorseboy> V16 .. then seem (not sure) to be reclassed to V140 20:50:41 <dragonhorseboy> it was rated for 1400hp (there were several different propsals forwarded at same time .. varying from 1600hp goods to 2500hp express powers) 20:50:45 <Terkhen> probably inside a tar file that the user can't open without winrar or something like that, yes 20:51:35 <Terkhen> I suppose it depends on how much text can fit 20:51:47 <andythenorth> or perhaps solving the root cause would be better 20:51:55 <andythenorth> my 'Help" industry suggestion is a bit sucky 20:52:13 <Terkhen> which is? 20:52:57 <andythenorth> ....create a "Help Industry" ;) ....that only benefits my FIRS set, and it's a bit weird 20:52:58 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-67-191-153-115.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 20:53:13 <andythenorth> Linking to the web isn't a solution either 20:53:29 <sparrL> always! 20:53:48 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb anyway managed to look at most of the map now...interesting 20:54:03 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb do you ever use steamers early on? just wondering 20:54:04 <Terkhen> I meant what is the root cause of needing help there. 20:54:17 <dragonhorseboy> lol re the 'was coal' sign :p 20:54:26 <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: bah @ early. i still have steam buses in 2100 :) 20:54:50 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I guess some grfs are quite intricate....cargo chains, industry behaviour, wagon speed limits, parameters etc etc 20:54:50 * dragonhorseboy fines sparrL for dangerous overpatched old rusty buses 20:54:52 <dragonhorseboy> :P 20:55:08 <andythenorth> Canset for example has a really nice pdf which is actually worth reading 20:55:24 <andythenorth> maybe the root cause is "grfs are too complex" :P 20:55:41 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth well it has some parameters that needs to be set for certain gameplays .. neverminding re TTRS 20:56:05 <dragonhorseboy> and beside the buy list doesn't always make it obvious to re placing locos on rear of the train etc 20:56:18 <Terkhen> yes... but there is no "nice" way of displaying help or a readme ingame... when coding the raise landscaping costs grf I missed more space at the NewGRF window, and it is not a complicated grf 20:56:31 <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: on my list of undocumented things that I plan to source dive for is breakdown chances and reliability factors... partially because i like keeping things in service as long as possible 20:57:04 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb hm? 20:57:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r18755 /trunk/src/map.cpp: -Fix [FS#3495] (r14847): CircularTileSearch skipped a few tiles close to the starting tile 20:57:27 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I also find the text limited 20:57:31 <Yexo> George: thanks for the test grf, that help a lot 20:57:37 <Yexo> the small one I mean :) 20:58:14 <Terkhen> probably even more limited, I only had to explain four simple parameters :P 20:59:45 <frosch123> there should be a way to add texts to grf parameters just like to noai settings (i.e. paramname, description, min/max, enumerations, ...) 20:59:59 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb btw I think I finally spotted a group of V200's .. seem to be close to a station named 'chembridge woods' or something like that 21:00:01 <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: I like using vehicles for a long time, but there is no good documentation on how age affects a vehicle. Even the gurus in openttdcoop had no idea that age increases running costs until very recently. 21:00:15 <andythenorth> sparr: does it? 21:00:18 <sparrL> yep 21:00:32 <sparrL> we ran into a problem with inflation causing our trains to become unprofitable 21:00:32 <andythenorth> I'm not convinced 21:00:35 <dragonhorseboy> sparrl you don't know that vehicle age affects station rating when competing too? ;) 21:00:42 <sparrL> renewing the trains cut the running costs in half 21:00:55 <andythenorth> sparr: sure that wasn't a feature of the set? 21:01:20 <sparrL> 50% sure. I would test further but I plan to source dive to get the answer instead. 21:01:34 <sparrL> This is one of the things that I want a comprehensive reference for, not a series of guesses and checks 21:02:11 <dragonhorseboy> btw spcomb I haven't even been able to spot one single VT-11 anywhere .. or was that on purpose? lol :P 21:02:27 <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: yes, but almost no one keeps their vehicles young enough for that to matter 21:02:43 <dragonhorseboy> sparrl well I did 21:03:15 <sparrL> I *might* in a seriously competitive game 21:03:16 <andythenorth> sparrL: it's worth knowing because some grf authors have discussed making older vehicles cost more 21:03:19 <dragonhorseboy> any trains showing red numbers were either on short life or due for replacement in next few years 21:03:36 <andythenorth> sparrL: ...it's always worth avoiding unnecessary nfo :) 21:03:53 <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: you only get a rating bonus if the vehicle is <3 years old. that's far lower than the normal replacement lifetime of any vehicle 21:03:55 <dragonhorseboy> I would have to agree .. I like the 'old costs more' feature ;) 21:05:00 <sparrL> even assuming the station rating info on the wiki is correct, which I expect it is not, it is incomplete in some ways 21:05:00 <dragonhorseboy> if you can't be arsed to review your network over time why should you bother demand your trains keep running cheaply anyway basiclaly? :) 21:05:29 <dragonhorseboy> worst I've had tho was locos being only 2-5 years old and already being targetted for massive replacement 21:05:44 <dragonhorseboy> talk about bad timing in the purchasing environment heh 21:06:50 <sparrL> if you want to max the station rating you have to replace every 3 years anyway 21:06:59 <sparrL> speaking of... 21:07:18 <dragonhorseboy> I generally don't bother because 90+% is already too good enough anyway 21:07:29 <sparrL> I learned a couple of days ago that you can give a train orders to refit. Has anyone done that in a seriously profitable way? I can imagine a few situations where it could work, but they would be rare. 21:07:46 <sparrL> 90% is hard to get with slow vehicles 21:08:17 <dragonhorseboy> sparrl not if one's already waiting for others to exit. as can be proven with ukrs already 21:08:42 <dragonhorseboy> I actually had 91-93% rating at one of the farm while the 0-8-0's were the only heavy freight power around 21:08:55 <sparrL> even with trains always waiting and always in the station (multiple paltforms) i still have trouble getting over 80-85% 21:09:08 <dragonhorseboy> hm .. differences in styles and scheduling I guess maybe 21:09:40 <sparrL> I want to know, not "I guess maybe" 21:09:45 * dragonhorseboy wonders if spcomb is busy 21:12:02 <sparrL> 17% for speed (153km/h+), 51% for keeping trains in the station, 16% for keeping the station free of waiting cargo. 84% is the baseline "best" 21:12:25 <sparrL> to get better than that you need very young trains, or a statue, or an ad campaign 21:12:36 <sparrL> unless, and this is the big catch, the wiki is wrong :) 21:13:04 <dragonhorseboy> sparrl hm so what were my 0-8-0's doing being years old and still able to catch minor 90+%'s .. I guess the wiki needs some rework ;) 21:13:08 <sparrL> 0-8-0 is much slower than that, so if you were getting 80%+ with 0-8-0s then I really want to know how 21:14:36 <dragonhorseboy> I do admit that I have never ever seen 98% one single time at all lol .. would be a bit too impratical :P 21:14:55 <sparrL> http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics#Local_authority_rating is the best "math" documentation i've seen for openttd... i aim for that to be the *minimum* level 21:15:17 <sparrL> even if the numbers are wrong, it tells which source files they are from 21:15:35 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffade.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:18 <andythenorth> Yexo: compiling airports branch failed. dunno if it's just a mac issue. Want a paste? 21:16:27 <Yexo> yes please 21:16:33 <sparrL> what I'd love to see is a level of documentation similar to nethack... http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Wish#References 21:16:39 <Yexo> I'm only testing with msvc,so it's possible that gcc can't compile it atm 21:16:48 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: of course, there's still dozens of BR01's in the depots 21:17:28 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: indeed, no VT-11's 21:18:20 <andythenorth> Yexo: http://paste.openttd.org/220914 21:18:27 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb hmm any reason or not sure? I've always ran many VT-11's myself 21:18:31 <andythenorth> it's pretty long - fail is at the end of course 21:18:56 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1FBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:19:24 *** Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-192-116-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:38 <sparrL> I continue to be annoyed at the "% transported" misnomer for industries 21:19:40 <Yexo> error is valid 21:19:49 <sparrL> if there's not a bug filed on that, I'm going to 21:19:52 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I went directly from V200+F -> BR103+TEE 21:19:59 <SpComb> no diesel TEE in between 21:20:05 <dragonhorseboy> oh ok 21:20:13 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb what year did you start this current game in again? 21:20:16 <andythenorth> sparrL: what's the issue with % transported? 21:20:23 <sparrL> it's wrong 21:20:30 <sparrL> it has nothing to do with the % that was transported 21:20:39 <sparrL> it appears to be linked to station ratings 21:20:43 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: 1921 21:20:57 <Yexo> andythenorth: can you pull and try to compile again? 21:20:57 <dragonhorseboy> sparrl actually its sorta averaging over time so if your station managed to hold 84-90% rating then the industry would pick some number in that range 21:21:20 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb ah jeeze .. really starting with only BR92 and E62 alone? 21:21:52 <SpComb> well, yes 21:22:28 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb to be honest anyway when I play dbsetxl on my own I often start in 1926 to anywhere in the 30's 21:22:29 <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: right, and that 84-90% has almost nothing to do with the % that gets transported 21:22:55 <dragonhorseboy> I'll just admit that I'm not too used to dealing with these <50km/h rail trains on my own you know 21:23:02 <andythenorth> Yexo: [SRC] Compiling airport.cpp 21:23:17 <andythenorth> Users/andy/Documents/workspace/airports.hg/src/table/airport_defaults.h:433: warning: missing braces around initializer 21:23:23 <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: you could transport 90% of the production and get "50% transported" (or less). vice versa is less likely and less extreme. 21:23:39 <dragonhorseboy> if I started 1926 .. well .. its often like BR152 on fair small pax lines and still using the E62 for light freights (eg a 96 tonnes coal mine) 21:23:40 <andythenorth> yexo that message is repeated x9, but compile continues 21:24:15 <andythenorth> few more compile warnings. I'll paste when it's done... 21:24:21 <Yexo> ok, great 21:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: right, and that 84-90% has almost nothing to do with the % that gets transported <-- so what is your alternate suggestion? 21:25:21 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb so the game is in 1987 now correct? 21:25:35 <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: without using crashes (which makes it trivial to accomplish) you could engineer a situation where you are transporting 100% of the monthly production of an industry, and the "% transported" is zero 21:25:35 <andythenorth> yexo game boots....haven't tried the airport grf yet. here's the paste: http://paste.openttd.org/220916 21:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> one that significantly surpasses the "it's always been this way" argument 21:26:21 <sparrL> Eddi|zuHause: well, I'd love to see an actual "% transported" statistic, but that would change the way people have to deal with industries. in the short term, I'd just like to see it relabeled in the game and the documentation 21:26:28 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: 1990 21:26:35 <sparrL> instead of "% transported" call it "service level" or something 21:26:38 <SpComb> the point where you start feeling frustrated again 21:26:44 * dragonhorseboy jumps another three years 21:26:52 * SpComb is currently trying to rework a mainline to fit ICE's 21:27:06 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb hmm yeah my favorite 201km/h locos are out that year 21:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: "realistically", you'd build a new mainline for ICEs and fiddle them into the existing stations 21:28:23 <Yexo> thanks andythenorth, the warnings are fixed now 21:29:29 <andythenorth> hey, the newgrf filter searches more than just the file name :) 21:29:40 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb sometimes in certain games I often have BR110's for the various decent pax services (save buying up VT11's one year later for smaller lines heh) .. and when the BR103 comes out .. most of the times the BR110's are almost all retired by then 21:30:09 <Zuu> How do you edit a template on the wiki? 21:30:10 <dragonhorseboy> sometimes I do end up with the BR120's but its a bit odd to have different TE ratio than the BR103's 21:30:28 <Zuu> Eg, what is the URL schema to access the templates? 21:31:03 <Zuu> Oh, /Teplate:name 21:31:03 <Yexo> Template::templatename IIRC 21:31:09 <Zuu> Thanks 21:31:39 <Zuu> I tried with /Template/name and /Templates/name 21:31:54 <Zuu> And then I got the idea to try with : 21:32:07 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, this is a station with a diagonal pax+freight line to it, so reworking that is difficult 21:32:28 <Zuu> I added a wiki page that documments the steps to take to add an edit box to a window. 21:32:32 <SpComb> http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/1987-giant.png#6229:3459:-1 <-- this area, with the new ICE mainline coming in from the SE 21:32:41 <SpComb> going to Hindston South 21:33:31 <Terkhen> my game is finished, I found a bug in one of my patches :P 21:33:38 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb anyway if you don't mind me commenting one more time .. I sometimes do add ICE1 on new decidated lines (avoiding the BR103 traffics) but more than often its only a tiny roost of ICE1's and never any of the newer stuffs or even the TD ones 21:34:49 <Zuu> http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Window/TextEdit 21:35:47 <Yexo> OrderPizzaWindow :) 21:35:52 <Yexo> nice page Zuu 21:36:04 <glx> nice indeed 21:36:07 <Sacro> does it link to dominos? 21:37:04 <Zuu> Yexo: Used FooBarWindow first, but couldn't make it clear what the would be the widget name in the name and what is the window name, so I went for something less abstract. 21:37:07 <sparrL> Everquest had /pizza in-game 21:37:57 *** codl [~codl@apijab1.apinc.org] has joined #openttd 21:38:11 *** codl [~codl@apijab1.apinc.org] has left #openttd [] 21:38:18 <glx> Zuu: wrong widget ID in OnMouseLoop I guess 21:38:33 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I'm planning on having separate ICE routes and BR103+IC routes 21:38:42 <dragonhorseboy> :) 21:38:47 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: so I'm planning a major ICE fleet 21:38:48 <Zuu> glx: Thanks for spotting that. 21:39:01 <SpComb> to replace the three dozen BR103's running TEE services now 21:39:08 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb often by then when I finally add the small ICE1 lines I'm usually soon then already stopping with the map because its as networked as I even can be bothered with heh 21:39:24 <dragonhorseboy> there isn't much after the ICE1's .. just small speedup in non-ice locomotives so .. well yeah 21:39:31 <SpComb> I've left myself plenty to do 21:39:48 <dragonhorseboy> heh I'm not the kind to hook up everything on a map .. so to our own styles of course ;) 21:40:41 <andythenorth> Yexo: new airport branch / survey camp airport both appear fine so far 21:40:54 <Zuu> hmm, maybe I should break a few more code lines. 21:41:46 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb I noticed you're only using rails alone with just a few ships .. is that right? 21:41:46 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@23.81.200-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd 21:43:10 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-192-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Something strange must have happened...] 21:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> man... i'm so frustrated about this crash... 21:43:53 <andythenorth> SpComb: can I sell you on the idea of some trucks :D 21:44:02 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth only if its from germanrv.grf first :P 21:45:46 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: plenty of trams 21:46:10 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb heh ok 21:46:12 <sparrL> http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Distance_vs_income.png <-- amazingly useful information 21:47:24 <dragonhorseboy> who stuff people onto non-sleeper trains that travel 700+ tiles anyway? :P lol as if 21:48:00 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: dump trucks *are* available in Germany ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebherr_Group 21:48:08 <sparrL> i've made ~2000 tile pax deliveries on a regular basis 21:48:26 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth germanrv.grf does have dump trucks? ;) 21:48:26 <sparrL> but that's moot, the effects of the delivery math applies to all cargo, not just pax 21:49:05 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: not *proper* dump trucks :) 21:49:13 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth...HEQ then ;) 21:49:18 <SpComb> now then, first ICE1 on the move 21:50:04 <sparrL> Eddi|zuHause: your thoughts on rewording "% transported"? 21:50:29 *** fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc2c9c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:42 <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: i haven't seen you making a conclusive suggestion yet 21:51:10 <sparrL> Eddi|zuHause: just change the wording. "Service Level" is my best suggestion, but I'm not a ui-wording guy, I'm sure there's a better name for it 21:51:35 <sparrL> anything is better than the current completely inaccurate term 21:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not an argument... 21:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> either you come up with something really convincing, or it'll stay like it is. 21:53:15 <sparrL> oh, the reasoning? because it is hella confusing to players who haven't figured out that it's wrong. i've been playing seriously for months, and casually for years, and didn't know until a few days ago when someone finally explained it to me 21:53:54 <Yexo> then please write a nice description on what it actually is on the wiki 21:53:56 <sparrL> it's just wrong. the words it says are not what it means. if the tooltip for the 'Close' button was 'Click here for help', that would be the same type of bug 21:54:02 <andythenorth> I've never figured it out either. I just ignore it 21:54:03 <Eddi|zuHause> not the reasoning against the existing one, the reasoning for the new version 21:54:05 <sparrL> Yexo: working on it, so far no one I've talked to knows 21:54:06 <Yexo> if you can start with that then other new players can read your description and understand immediatly 21:54:14 <Yexo> knows what? 21:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: it's called "constructive" criticism for a reason 21:54:38 *** Tennel [~andreas@88.150.10.254] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:55:13 <sparrL> Yexo: knows what it means. this is another situation like I mentioned last night, where some people have a clue, but no one is sure. 21:55:37 <Yexo> it's the percent of the cargo that got moved to the stations 21:55:40 <Yexo> the rest is just lost 21:56:14 <Yexo> if there is a single station (with constant station-rating), it's equal to the station rating for that cargo 21:56:15 <sparrL> I believe that you are incorrect 21:56:24 <Yexo> if there are multiple stations it's somewhat more difficult 21:56:39 <sparrL> the consensus is that it always has something to do with station rating 21:56:41 <andythenorth> it's trippy. I don't know of a better solution either though 21:57:42 <Yexo> sparrL: you can believe whatever you want 21:57:54 <Yexo> at least I can backup my statements with the actual code 21:57:56 <sparrL> <Yexo> it's the percent of the cargo that got moved to the stations 21:58:01 <sparrL> <Yexo> if there is a single station (with constant station-rating), it's equal to the station rating for that cargo 21:58:06 <sparrL> these two statements are contradictory 21:58:19 <Yexo> you'll find they are not 21:58:30 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has joined #openttd 21:58:31 <andythenorth> sparrL: they are not contradictory 21:58:36 <Yexo> suppose there is an industry with only a single station that has ratings near it 21:58:37 <sparrL> the station rating has almost nothing to do with the percent of cargo that got moved to the station 21:58:57 <Yexo> then if the industry produced 100coal and the station rating for coal is 80%, then 80tons of coal appear at the station 21:59:09 <Yexo> so 80 tons of coal is "moved" from the industry to the station 21:59:38 <sparrL> I am currently working under the assumption that the wiki is accurate, if incomplete, on the subject of station rating. Are you saying that a station with 0% rating would receive no cargo? 21:59:57 <Yexo> then at the end of the month, say the last month there was 200 ton produced and 160 ton moved to station, the industry percent transported would be 160/200*100%=80% 22:00:01 <Yexo> so equal to the station rating 22:00:17 <Yexo> that's correct, a station with 0% rating doesn't receive cargo 22:01:07 *** fjb [~frank@p5485DF1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:01:21 <sparrL> the information you are giving me is consistent and probably accurate... and reflected nowhere on the wiki, nor in the knowledge of the dozen other mostly-experienced players who have tried to provide information on this subject 22:02:37 <fjb> Moin 22:02:41 <Yexo> I had to check the source code too for the details, I don't know these things either 22:02:52 <Yexo> hello fjb 22:02:53 <sparrL> this is the first time, in perhaps four hours over the course of two weeks, that anyone has mentioned anything about production from industries being lost 22:03:35 <sparrL> "% transported" seems more *accurate* to me, knowing this, but still misleading. to me "% transported" sounds like the amount of the production that made it onto trains 22:04:07 <Yexo> it's still a bit misleading, because another part ofthe cargo can be lost if you have a large stockpile at the station 22:04:11 <Yexo> but accurate enough imo 22:04:33 <Yexo> and the wiki page on game mechanics says under the station rating header: "This section shows the factors that affect how much of an industry's product is delivered to a station. " 22:04:46 <Yexo> while that is indeed not very clear, it does reflect that something is lost 22:05:02 <sparrL> interesting 22:05:14 *** slas [~chatzilla@25.201.216.81.static.s-o.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:17 <sparrL> I don't know how I missed that, since I have been staring at that chart for the better part of an hour 22:05:43 <sparrL> the chart also happens to be incorrect in some ways, but it's at least a step in the right direction 22:06:06 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 22:06:18 <sparrL> and no, I don't know which ways, but I have heard not-disputed claims that 0-8-0 (slow engine) trains can maintain a 90%+ rating with no temporary bonuses, which the chart refutes 22:07:23 <Yexo> then those claims were wrong 22:07:47 <sparrL> or the chart is wrong... I plan to check the source code to confirm 22:10:00 <sparrL> but knowing that rating affects (effective) production is incredibly useful... advertising campaigns seem a LOT more useful now 22:10:21 <sparrL> the difference in 80% and 100% rating could be hundreds of units of lost production per month 22:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> a regular slow engine should maintain a rating of about 67% 22:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> for "always a train waiting" 22:13:21 <Yexo> +10% if you have a statue in the town,those are also very useful 22:13:36 <Yexo> more then advertising campaigns because it's not temporarily 22:13:36 <Zuu> Yexo: Do you have any idea of how easy or hard it would be to pause only the execution of one specific AI, even if the game is unpaused? Apart from adding a data structure over which AIs that are paused, do you know if the squirrel integration supports pausing/suspending of an AI? 22:13:38 <sparrL> can you build more than one statue? 22:13:44 <sparrL> i've never built one 22:13:47 <Belugas> bye bye good night and all 22:14:09 <Yexo> night Belugas 22:14:15 <Yexo> sparrL: no 22:14:37 <sparrL> that's what i always assumed 22:14:46 <Yexo> Zuu: stopping the AI after the current tick is relatively easy, if you want to make it stop while doing the AILog call with the stop string that's a bit harder 22:14:50 <sparrL> can you dynamite it if you need to put it in a different town? 22:15:01 <andythenorth> I can don't remember getting more than about 67% station ratings. Feeder service with new trucks should produce a high rating 22:15:02 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=45419&hilit=firs+fish+heqs 22:15:02 <Johnmit> you can build 1 per town 22:15:14 <Yexo> but I suppose it's possible 22:15:30 *** NeosaD [~Alty@47.Red-79-146-116.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 22:15:46 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: anyways, I'll hopefully be finishing this game by next week 22:16:00 <SpComb> already learned a lot about the DBSetXL though 22:16:17 <SpComb> http://qmsk.net/~terom/openttd/dbsetxlguide/ <-- I've been using Uwe's guide, but I've noticed plenty of omissions so far 22:16:34 <SpComb> but there's a lot of useful info 22:16:49 <Zuu> Yexo: Okay, I won't start with it tonight, so I'll post the patch at FS as it looks right now. For now it just pauses the game. 22:17:01 <sparrL> Johnmit: ahh, in that case I will build one in every town from now on, seems like a no-brainer 22:17:02 *** Splex [~splex@n058152254152.netvigator.com] has joined #openttd 22:17:13 <Yexo> Zuu: ok 22:17:23 <Yexo> you wnat me to look at the patch as it is now or do you want that feature in anyway? 22:17:59 <sparrL> andythenorth: you could "cheat" and attach a train station, let a fast train run back and forth through it :) 22:18:03 <sparrL> andythenorth: +17% there 22:18:29 <Johnmit> sparrL trying to understand the game mechanics can be quite interesting :) 22:18:40 <sparrL> Johnmit: quite 22:18:55 <Zuu> I'm not sure if I will do the break in the current tick. The other one, break after current tick could be done I guess by adding a toggle button on the window that lets the user manually pause the AI. 22:19:02 <dragonhorseboy> doh forgot this channel was still on lol 22:19:15 <Yexo> andythenorth: the stationrating in that screenshot is so low because of the alrge amount of coal waiting 22:19:23 <Yexo> ideally you should never stockpile it at the station 22:19:24 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb .. next week? hmm ok I'll probably be waiting quietly then ;) 22:19:27 <Zuu> If you want to break the AI at a specific point you can add a Sleep call just after your print statement. 22:19:29 <Johnmit> also, if OpenTTD has the same mechanics as TTDPatch for station ratings, then age of vehicle also refers to the age of the wagons 22:19:49 <Johnmit> and not the engine age - which is the only number displayed 22:19:58 <sparrL> Yexo: do transferred goods count against that part of the station rating? 22:19:59 <Zuu> That said, proper breaking would be cool :-) 22:20:17 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I'll need to fix some issues (timetable autofill round-off, perhaps autosave interval) before I start a new game, though, but I'll try and pick a revision with a readily available win32 build :) 22:20:28 <Yexo> sparrL: all cargo at the station (it doesn't look at whether it's transferred or not) 22:20:41 <dragonhorseboy> johnmit I've always kinda determined the age of wagons by looking at its value .. if its eg hm say 420DEM and the buy list says eg 2700DM then I know its probably due for an upgrade if not a renewal 22:20:51 <dragonhorseboy> I know its not perfect but its a useable way right? 22:20:52 <sparrL> Johnmit: if the wiki is right, only ages under 3 years matter, so that part is usually moot... i don't know if it's worth my attention to manually replace all my trains every 2 years, even if it turns out to be profitable 22:21:13 <sparrL> which it probably wouldn't be 22:21:24 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I'll probably take a 1024x512 map this time, so if you want to join in, there'll be enough space to build two separate networks and then join them together at some point :) 22:21:26 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb well it'll be still running dbsetxl+newstations tho of course right? 22:21:32 <andythenorth> Yexo: the station with 13% in that screenshot is a transfer...the mine isn't in it's catchment area. Mine station has about 67% I'd guess 22:21:34 *** PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-211-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 22:21:38 <Zuu> Yexo: I'd say, you may read it for now if you wish, but I'll probably at least read up a bit and see if I can do at least the easier form of breaking. 22:21:47 <Zuu> (haven't posted it yet) 22:21:49 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb hmm wait .. would you have 'able to buy out company' option enabled then? 22:21:49 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: yeah, dbsetxl, although I'm not sure about the alpine climate - perhaps I'll just keep it in spite of the food issue 22:21:55 <Johnmit> indeed sparrL - the vehicle must be under 3 years to count 22:21:57 <Yexo> Zuu: ok 22:22:09 <Yexo> I'll take a look when you post it at fs 22:22:19 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: well... unless I get IS incorporated, it'll be with a max_companies of 1 22:22:29 <Johnmit> it is why TTDPatch had a cheat which renewed all the vehicles, not just the engines 22:22:30 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb ah hmm good point 22:22:50 <Johnmit> it is also what made the original game that much harder at a higher level 22:22:59 <sparrL> Johnmit: so we are talking about re-purchasing every train every year to get a 13% increase in station output... that's a tough sell, both in terms of profitability and in terms of human attention required 22:23:01 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb yeah you're right.. it'll have to be an IS build to really work out but still i could imagine players build their own seperate patch of the network while being stuck in loans 22:23:05 <SpComb> (that way you can leave off the server password and just have a company one - others can spectate) 22:23:09 <Johnmit> no autorenew or cloning 22:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i have a locally modified alpine that disables the industries and adds food to the houses 22:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i use it with PBI 22:23:21 <dragonhorseboy> then when someone finally start profitting nicely etc you could then plan a buyout to eventually combine everything into one single company 22:23:34 <dragonhorseboy> but its your call tho spcomb ;) 22:23:35 *** phalax [~phalax@84.19.128.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:23:48 <Johnmit> sparrL - if you thought getting 100% was easy then yes 22:23:48 * dragonhorseboy hates PBI (no offense meant of course :p ) 22:23:50 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: well, not having food isn't really all that bad - the towns lower down grow well enough 22:23:56 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:03 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 22:24:04 <Ammler> no frosch :-) 22:24:09 <Johnmit> but TTO and TTD with all its limits was actually quiet a hard game to get 100% in 22:24:12 <dragonhorseboy> the last two jonty IS maps were finally fun with PBI not even enabled because I could actually send ore to the steel mill without too much frettings 22:24:35 *** Grelouk_ [~Grelouk@77.200.103.244] has joined #openttd 22:24:50 <Ammler> added a decimal number column to the basecosts table, hope that is fine: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=BaseCosts 22:24:51 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: also you can fund new buildings to get around the food requirement 22:25:05 <SpComb> you'd have to do that fairly often :) 22:25:25 <Yexo> for those interested: for the station rating the max speed of the vehicle counts, so if you have wagon speed limits on and a wagon limits the speed of the train then the limited speed counts 22:25:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Administr@89.246.196.21] has joined #openttd 22:25:36 <Johnmit> that's also why you didn't need 100% station ratings to get the 'Tycoon' rating and maximum points 22:26:00 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I've been playing this game with 4x daylength, so each game-year is pretty exactly 0.9h of real-time 22:26:15 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb ah that explains why it seem quite slow to roll the years 22:26:29 <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: yeah, I've been playing this over 60 hours so far to get to 1987 :) 22:26:37 <dragonhorseboy> lol :) 22:26:43 <dragonhorseboy> sounds like a game I could want to share into too 22:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i played my daylength 4 game for half a year before getting to 1987 22:27:23 <SpComb> I started 2009-12-18 22:27:38 <SpComb> it's a slow game, myes :) 22:27:53 <dragonhorseboy> well 60 hours sounds fine to me :) 22:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> -rw-r--r-- 1 johannes users 3724413 3. Sep 2007 Ravenswald Transport, 26. M?r 1921.sav 22:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> -rw-r--r-- 1 johannes users 4506090 22. Feb 2008 Ravenswald Transport, 11. M?r 1987.sav 22:30:44 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@23.81.200-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:31:48 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.210.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:32:53 <Rubidium> haha! 22:32:54 <Rubidium> -rw-r--r-- 1 rubidium src 34K Jan 7 23:32 Treham Transport, 19th Oct 1951.sav 22:33:28 <Rubidium> oh shoot... shouldn't type touch when you mean chown :( 22:33:40 <Rubidium> -rw-r--r-- 1 rubidium src 34K Jul 13 2007 Treham Transport, 19th Oct 1951.sav 22:34:02 <Rubidium> okay, it's likely that I'm playing that game less than Eddi's playing his game 22:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i did omit this one: 22:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> -rw-r--r-- 1 johannes users 4433904 8. Sep 12:00 Ravenswald Transport, 26. Apr 1988.sav 22:36:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't really played the game much in that time, only an experimental attempt to load it into trunk 22:36:33 <Rubidium> oh, and why isn't there a stable liblzma yet? 22:37:22 <Rubidium> oh, I loaded my savegame today too, and saved it 20 times: http://paste.openttd.org/220906 :) 22:37:43 *** phalax [~phalax@84.19.128.89] has joined #openttd 22:38:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have enough trees ;) 22:41:18 <Rubidium> http://paste.openttd.org/220911 <- of some 8.6 MB savegame; without much extra CPU you can chop of ~10% savegame size with liblzma, with lots more CPU ~20-25% 22:42:25 <sparrL> we are using zlib:1 now? 22:42:34 <Rubidium> no, zlib:6 22:42:45 <peter1138> hmm, i still have an elrail checkout 22:42:55 <peter1138> from march 2006 22:43:20 <sparrL> Rubidium: what is the reasoning behind using zlib for structures inside the file, rather than on the file as a whole? 22:45:08 <Rubidium> backward compatability 22:45:21 <sparrL> are saves backwards compatible? 22:45:29 <sparrL> that is, can a save from 0.7.0 load in 0.1.0? 22:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the other way round 22:46:02 <Rubidium> that's called forward compatible 22:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> what you describe is forward compatible 22:46:13 <Rubidium> *unless* you meant 1.0.0 22:46:37 <sparrL> right, so what is the backwards compatibility reasoning wrt my question? making saves in 1.0.0 differently doesn't mean we lose the ability to open 0.1.0 saves 22:47:22 <Rubidium> yes, that you can load 0.1.0 saves in 1.0.0 (or 0.7.5 saves in 1.0.0 for that matter) 22:47:28 <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: but it might mean maintaining more code for the third different loading algorithm 22:47:28 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c487.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:35 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.21.247.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has left #openttd [] 22:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it's currently two loading algorithsms, one for openttd savegames, and one for original tt(d(patch)) savegames 22:48:48 <sparrL> ahh, k 22:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> where loading of ttdpatch savegames is not guaranteed to work with some patch features 22:50:14 <peter1138> hmm, pile transport is OLD 22:50:15 <sparrL> I ask because I am thinking of Battle for Wesnoth, where saves are human-editable (XML) files, that are optionally (by default) gzipped 22:50:56 <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: you _don't_ want to start an XML discussion :p 22:51:38 <sparrL> meh, doesn't have to be XML. i just like being able to open my saves in a text editor. to cheat, or investigate, or create concept scenarios 22:51:38 <peter1138> basically it means we can tell what type of file it is and how it is compressed without having to guess 22:52:02 <peter1138> decompressing your save file would only leave you binary data anyway 22:52:05 <sparrL> I really want to have a concept-testing scenario in openttd, but making one seems Hard 22:52:05 *** NeosaD [~Alty@47.Red-79-146-116.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: X-CRiPt 5.1 http://www.relativo.com ] 22:52:50 <Rubidium> sparrL: use the none savegame 'format' 22:53:06 <sparrL> where? 22:53:12 <sparrL> not familiar with that option 22:53:23 <Rubidium> openttd.cfg 22:53:43 <Rubidium> where it says savegame_format 22:53:53 <Rubidium> instead of zlib use none 22:54:06 <Rubidium> et voila, no compression is done 22:55:38 <peter1138> good luck editing it though :D 22:56:31 <Rubidium> reminds me of that 'trainer' for OpenTTD 22:56:56 <Rubidium> what an effort for something that's already implemented (i.e. the cheat) 22:57:02 *** nfc [nfc@cable-hvk-fe7ede00-156.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 22:57:05 <sparrL> peter1138: I want to make a scenario with a custom heightmap, custom town and industry placements... seems no easier way than editing a savegame somehow 22:57:38 <peter1138> i'd use the scenario editor, personally 22:57:48 <Yexo> I think editing the openttd code will be a lot easier if you need something custom done 22:58:19 <Yexo> but yes, try the scenario editor first 22:58:40 <dragonhorseboy> that reminds me of still needing to play around with FIRS in editor to see if any bugs crops up 23:01:34 <Terkhen> I can't find anything at the code about how the connection to an existing road from a new road stop is built... I have been checking CmdBuildRoadStop but I can't figure it 23:02:20 <sparrL> peter1138: want more control than the scenario editor gives 23:04:27 <peter1138> presumably loading a custom heightmap, and placing towns and industries where you want them , isn't enough? despite that being your list of requirements... 23:06:27 <peter1138> Terkhen, BuildRoadOutsideStation() in road_*gui*.cpp 23:07:53 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@162.156.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd 23:09:33 <Terkhen> peter1138: thanks :) 23:13:54 *** Grelouk_ [~Grelouk@77.200.103.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:14:50 <sparrL> peter1138: control over the composition of the towns is important, as are the parameters of the industries 23:15:19 *** Johnmit [~John@93-97-107-116.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Going, Going...... Go] 23:15:58 <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: feel free to write a savegame<->xml converter... 23:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but don't expect anyone to include that in any kind of official build 23:16:46 <sparrL> why would i do that? 23:16:52 <sparrL> i neither want nor need savegames as xml 23:16:54 <SmatZ> why not? 23:17:01 <sparrL> SmatZ: see ^^ 23:17:51 <sparrL> <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: you _don't_ want to start an XML discussion :p 23:17:52 <sparrL> you were right 23:17:56 * SmatZ is going to play Realms of Arkania 3: Shadows over Riva 23:17:58 <sparrL> I don't. 23:18:03 <SmatZ> OpenRoA3:SoR, anyone? 23:18:44 *** ecke [root@213.195.231.53] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:23 <Ammler> Hello, I liked to rewrite my basecosts grf and failed quite silly: http://pastebin.ca/1742014 23:26:40 <Ammler> if I don't set parameter 2, the whole grf will be disabled, why is that? 23:26:53 <Ammler> it works, if I have defined 4 parameters 23:27:00 <dragonhorseboy> heh ammler..as long as you don't break the offical release of the grf :P 23:27:10 * dragonhorseboy uses it literally every single time in SP 23:27:44 <Ammler> the grf will have a new id 23:27:54 <Ammler> and fully configurable :-) 23:28:16 <dragonhorseboy> heh ok ;) 23:28:34 <dragonhorseboy> ammler the two parameters I always seem to 'abuse' is with airport cost and multiplying the plane runcost 23:28:55 <dragonhorseboy> that makes air a lot more relastic .. no M-profit-per-delivery anymore 23:29:01 <dragonhorseboy> :) 23:29:44 <Ammler> well, the new grf will just be able to change 8 types, you can define which and apply a value 23:30:11 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:27 <Ammler> but something is wrong with my draft 23:30:34 <dragonhorseboy> '8 types'? 23:31:24 <Ammler> from here: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=BaseCosts 23:32:16 <dragonhorseboy> hmm so you mean able to pick eight out of 59 or ? 23:32:45 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:52 <Ammler> yes, well, it would be extendable, but I don't think you need more 23:33:56 <dragonhorseboy> well ammler.. a lot of these stuffs are reducency (such as 'remove signal' so hmm yeah) 23:33:58 <Ammler> and the current one from bananas doesn't use the new types >48 23:34:44 <dragonhorseboy> 'remove industry'? that would be a bit of abusing in MP .. but I guess it could have merits if there's two adjacent steel mills and one is in the way of the station junction for others one 23:35:13 <Ammler> doesn't that need magic bulldozer anyway? 23:36:00 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:38:52 *** ecke [~ecke@88.86.107.135] has joined #openttd 23:38:55 *** ecke [~ecke@88.86.107.135] has quit [] 23:41:44 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@188.109.251.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:03 <Ammler> mainly the grf checks, if parameter set, then it changes the factors, else it skippes 23:43:21 <Terkhen> good night 23:43:23 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@38.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...] 23:43:34 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 23:48:07 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 23:55:13 *** welshdragon [~markmac@147.143.254.214] has joined #openttd