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00:13:24 *** sliddy [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:43:36 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:06:31 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:24:18 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-181-212.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:16 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:40:57 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 01:50:32 *** manveru [~m_felling@KD114017221254.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #openttd 02:26:44 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-207-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:32:05 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-140-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:39:18 *** Lachie is now known as Lechie 02:43:18 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:b4d5:6ca7:ba9c:5bc2] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:43:31 *** manveru [~m_felling@KD114017221254.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:02:30 *** Maarten_ [~dutchusa@99-73-209-18.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 03:03:52 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.atheme.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:04:21 *** CIA-11 [cia@cia.atheme.org] has joined #openttd 03:09:35 *** Maarten [~dutchusa@99-73-209-18.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:51:08 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 04:00:36 *** DDR [~DDR@d99-199-10-67.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B773D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:22 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77575.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:04:32 <planetmaker> good morning 05:11:08 *** Xaroth_ [~Xaroth@86.92.135.101] has joined #openttd 05:17:39 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@86.92.135.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:20:01 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-207-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:22:03 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-207-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 05:46:48 *** hgnmu128 [~xenon128@117.201.253.222] has joined #openttd 05:47:29 *** hgnmu128 [~xenon128@117.201.253.222] has left #openttd [] 05:48:39 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.201.253.222] has joined #openttd 05:49:06 <josepr83> helo 05:50:32 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.201.253.222] has quit [] 06:05:32 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 06:06:33 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 06:11:45 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0497ba.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:15:33 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 06:15:39 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has left #openttd [] 06:16:47 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 06:17:58 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 06:34:56 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:35:28 *** ar3k [~ident@ebk5.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 06:36:30 <Terkhen> good morning 06:36:32 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 06:39:14 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecf93.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:09:21 <ChoHag> <Michi> Here's the bug fix release 2. 07:09:22 <ChoHag> Woohoo! 07:10:50 <ChoHag> Also, about feckin' time. 07:17:58 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-003-136.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:21:39 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 07:24:44 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@ppp118-209-38-27.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd 07:30:38 *** Amis [~Amis@5400C3CB.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 07:35:14 <planetmaker> a patch to a patch is always on time, never too late nor ever too early ;-) 07:36:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that was "a wizard is never late" 07:39:00 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC2576.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:39:32 <planetmaker> :-) 07:39:49 <planetmaker> badly cited from memory, but still recognized ;-) 07:46:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 07:47:36 <Terkhen> :P 07:49:48 *** manveru [~m_felling@KD114017221254.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #openttd 07:51:20 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 07:51:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [] 07:58:38 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:58:41 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:03:53 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:04:07 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19B55.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:04:10 <bodis> morning 08:04:22 <Alberth> moin 08:04:31 <planetmaker> salut 08:05:16 <bodis> only have a couple of minutes now so wont bother asking questions but I am glad I found my way here now ::) 08:05:38 <planetmaker> :-) 08:05:59 <bodis> discovered openttd 4 days ago 08:06:10 <bodis> boy isnt it adictive 08:06:10 <planetmaker> there's also a well-frequented forum at tt-forums.net 08:06:25 <Terkhen> hi bodis 08:06:37 <bodis> hey 08:06:39 <planetmaker> but yes, probably most people here will agree, bodis ;-) 08:06:46 <Terkhen> yes, I'm now struggling to code instead of playing :/ 08:06:52 <planetmaker> he 08:07:07 <planetmaker> Terkhen, it's also a kind of adiction ;-) - or playing with other means 08:07:08 <bodis> yep I was coding before and now havent opened gedit for 4 days straight :) 08:07:21 <Terkhen> :D 08:07:48 <bodis> anyway gotta take kids to the park talk to you lot later 08:07:53 <Terkhen> see you bodis 08:07:56 <planetmaker> enjoy 08:08:04 <bodis> yeah always :) 08:08:05 <Alberth> a new yacd 08:08:19 <planetmaker> yup. Already compiled it this morning during breakfast ;-) 08:09:14 <Terkhen> and it fixes the most annoying parts :) 08:09:30 <Terkhen> that's why I'm struggling, but I really should do something useful today :P 08:09:36 <planetmaker> reads like it, yes 08:09:39 <planetmaker> :-D 08:17:44 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@ppp118-209-38-27.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:18:34 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@ppp118-209-24-43.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd 08:32:41 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:37:00 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 09:18:14 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:31:55 <bodis> hey again 09:32:29 <Terkhen> hi bodis 09:32:47 <bodis> right as you might have guesed I am new to ottd 09:33:08 <bodis> I am a debian man and current release on debian is 1.0.4 09:33:13 <bodis> am I missing alot? 09:33:34 <Noldo> check what you might get from backports 09:34:04 <bodis> just wondered if there is alot of difference 09:34:11 <bodis> I wont be multiplaying yet 09:34:40 <Noldo> You'll have to read through the changelogs to know for sure 09:34:58 <bodis> k :) 09:35:05 <Noldo> I'd propably play atleast few games with the version you can get easy 09:35:29 <bodis> right then you guys do still play single player? 09:35:51 <bodis> cos all the infor on the net suggests that majority are playing coop 09:35:53 <bodis> :) 09:36:01 <Terkhen> yes, single player is quite common too 09:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> get the latest release from www.openttd.org/download-stable there are also .debs available 09:36:05 <Noldo> I'm all Eve online and League of Legends lately, but there is nothing wrong with single player 09:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.0.x is missing quite a lot over 1.1.x 09:36:37 <Noldo> http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/branches/1.1.hg/file/4f8f269b4d0e/changelog.txt 09:36:41 <Terkhen> in fact until a few months ago I only played single player 09:36:59 <bodis> ok ty 09:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: "coop" is only a very loud minority ;) 09:37:12 <bodis> good :) 09:37:39 <Noldo> oh my there are a lot of thing tagged Feature in 1.1.0-beta1 09:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there are many very different playing styles around 09:37:55 <bodis> so I managed to get my game 20 years in game and got 20mil pounds 09:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: of course, almost a year worth of new developments 09:38:22 <bodis> is it all about trains and plains? 09:38:29 <bodis> roads seems to be not needed at all? 09:38:37 <bodis> what is the general idea? 09:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have ships and trucks too. especially within cities where there isn't a lot of space 09:39:07 <Eddi|zuHause> from online content you can get tram sets, those are incredibly well for passenger transport in cities 09:39:09 <bodis> but rail seems to be the main money maker? 09:39:28 <bodis> what is the goal these days? 09:39:40 <bodis> get most money or create the best infrastructure? 09:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no real goal 09:39:47 <bodis> hehe 09:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause> pick one 09:40:20 <bodis> does the game stop at 2050 even if you start 1930? 09:40:25 <bodis> or is it 100 years? 09:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the game never stops 09:40:36 <bodis> ohh 09:40:42 <Terkhen> the score screen always appear at 2050, but you can keep playing for a few million years IIRC 09:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> 2050 you get a nice table with your score, but it has no real end 09:41:15 <bodis> ahh 09:41:23 <bodis> what size maps do you guys go for? 09:41:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the score calculation isn't the best part of the game anyway 09:41:31 <V453000> this game has basically no limits :P that is why it is so good 09:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: as a beginner, you shouldn't get too large, but not too small either 09:41:58 <bodis> heh need to rethink my strategy :) 09:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> 256 or 512 each side 09:42:14 <bodis> got 512 now 09:42:55 <bodis> should I play with oppnents or on my own? 09:43:21 <V453000> sure, it has multiplayer 09:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the opponents might teach you some things, but they tend to get in your way quickly 09:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (if you mean AI opponents) 09:43:43 <bodis> yep 09:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played with opponents in years 09:43:57 <V453000> oh :D I didnt even consider those 09:44:48 <bodis> o the real goal is not to score at 2050, its to create a super network 09:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yep 09:45:19 <V453000> pretty much 09:45:34 <V453000> you create your own goal basically 09:46:02 <bodis> ok then, so really you wanna connect cities with roads, rail and the rest 09:46:18 <Terkhen> it is relatively easy to get perfect rating before 2050 09:46:34 <V453000> ^ 09:46:42 <Terkhen> I always fail because of the "profits over 20.000â¬" parameter, but only because I use road vehicles 09:46:51 <Terkhen> if I only used trains I would have no problems on getting 1000 09:47:09 <Terkhen> so it is a nice goal when you are learning, later you forget about it 09:47:22 <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: basically you set yourself goals like "nice looking", "very efficient", "very high cargo amount" or "connect everything" and then play on 09:47:37 <bodis> k :) 09:47:42 <Terkhen> yes, those are the most frequent goals :) 09:48:01 <Terkhen> although I usually do "I'm going to build stuff until I'm bored" 09:48:17 <V453000> which usually results best :p 09:48:22 <Terkhen> :P 09:48:43 <bodis> right I read somewhere about creating your main depot away from cities so you can expand freele? 09:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> not all tips you find on the net are important for all playing styles 09:49:23 <V453000> or even for at least any :P 09:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i myself play without breakdowns, so i don't really have a need for depots 09:49:36 <bodis> breakdowns? 09:49:54 <V453000> do your trains break once in a while? 09:50:04 <V453000> like they stop and produce steam and then they continue 09:50:16 <bodis> ahh 09:50:35 <bodis> no I dont have breakdowns 09:50:47 <V453000> :) 09:50:52 <bodis> do you have like a main line through the map and connect to it? 09:51:15 <V453000> yes, I always did that 09:51:28 <V453000> keeps it somewhat systematic 09:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> this was my last game on a small (128x256) map: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%205.%20Nov%201988.png (12MB) 09:53:02 <V453000> looks nice :) my last game on a small map resulted in 5000 road vehicles ._. 09:53:22 <bodis> wow 09:53:42 <bodis> Error: Dependency is not satisfiable: libicu38 (>= 3.8-5) 09:53:44 <bodis> hmm 09:53:54 <Terkhen> how do you manage the buses for local transport at big towns? lots of groups, or a single group following a large route? 09:54:13 <Terkhen> bodis: that usually happens when you download a deb file that is not created for your debian/ubuntu version 09:54:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i make several groups. one for each line 09:54:32 <bodis> hmm that was a squeeeze 09:54:35 <Eddi|zuHause> wait, i have a picture for that as well 09:54:41 <bodis> damn lenny :) 09:54:59 <Terkhen> ok :) 09:55:09 <bodis> lol thanks :) 09:55:30 <Terkhen> I have started recently to use groups, I'm still trying to find the best way to organize them 09:55:37 <V453000> does alpine climate work fine with FIRS? 09:56:11 <bodis> do the towns join together later in the game? 09:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: no, i hacked it 09:56:26 <Terkhen> bodis: they keep being separate towns, but they can grow into each other 09:56:32 <bodis> k 09:56:36 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: oh :D 09:56:47 <Terkhen> OpenGFX+ Landscape has an alpine setting too :) 09:57:01 <V453000> yes but that doesnt allow ttd base tiles 09:57:12 <V453000> ... does it? 09:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> only opengfx base 09:58:02 <V453000> yes ... so how do you "hack" it? :) 09:58:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the RV groups: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%204.%20Aug%201953_3.png 09:58:35 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: thanks :) 09:58:39 *** fjb is now known as Guest3266 09:58:40 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFF2EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:59:21 <bodis> do you need to start planting big stations at the start of the game or do you do alot of demolishing later on? 09:59:30 <bodis> cos it seems that towns grow in your way 09:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you replace sprite 1060 (iirc) of alpinew.grf with an unconditional jump to end of file, and remove the alpine compatibility check from firs 10:00:20 <V453000> oh, so modifying the newgrfs 10:00:40 <V453000> bodis: just set their growth to slower rates or disallow them to build roads on their own (best option) 10:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> additional work required if you want food acceptance for houses, but easier to load swedish houses, that almost eleminates all alpine/default houses from the map 10:00:57 <bodis> ohh 10:01:13 <bodis> but if they dont grow you dont get business 10:01:28 <V453000> they can grow 10:01:37 <ChoHag> Bloody coal mine stopped shipping to the destination immediately after I paid for a £100k line linking to it. 10:01:38 <V453000> but you manage the roads so they do not screw it up 10:05:18 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-173-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 10:05:50 *** Guest3266 [~frank@p5DDFF22B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:05:58 <Wolf01> hello 10:10:20 <bodis> so if you build roads to towns they will grow only around roads? 10:10:38 <ChoHag> Not 'only'. 10:26:30 <bodis> do you guys download any addons? 10:26:52 <ChoHag> I do. 10:27:29 <bodis> there are a few new GRF items to download 10:27:36 <bodis> download everything? 10:27:40 <ChoHag> No. 10:28:09 <bodis> whats all that newGFR ? 10:28:17 <bodis> seems to be items like new trains etc 10:29:39 * ChoHag shrugs 10:29:40 <ChoHag> Anything. 10:29:45 <bodis> hehe :) 10:31:13 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:37:19 <Alberth> extensions originally containing only graphics, but nowadays you can code almost everything in the game in it; vehicles, tracks, houses, industries, eye-candy, etc 10:38:13 <Rubidium> bad wording... 10:38:14 <Alberth> usually you should refrain from loading several sets that do the same 10:38:28 <Rubidium> almost everything is far far from true 10:39:26 <Alberth> there is a better description available, in less words than the entire spec? 10:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your general boundaries of "everything" 10:41:08 <ChoHag> He did say 'almost' everything. 10:41:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if you mean "life, the universe, and everything", then the answer is 42. 10:41:14 <Rubidium> yes, but what you just said kinda implies that all patches can be implemented as NewGRF and thus downloaded via the in-game downloader. Only reinforcing the "myth" that it is actually possible 10:42:16 <Rubidium> it's more like NewGRFs provides constants for OpenTTD's game model 10:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> for various interpretations of "constant" :p 10:42:56 <Rubidium> but, that now most of those constants can be computed on the fly by the NewGRF 10:43:09 <Alberth> like industries behave like a constant :p 10:43:56 <bodis> so should I download anything? 10:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> while Alberth's description might have been too general, yours was too limited definitely 10:44:07 <Rubidium> i.e. NewGRFs don't add any features beyond what is implemented in OpenTTD's game model 10:44:10 <ChoHag> Anything which has an interesting description. 10:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: you can download everything, but you should not enable everything at the same time 10:44:32 <bodis> ok I think I will stick with original for a while :) 10:44:32 <Alberth> bodis: click 'online content' in the main menu 10:44:39 <bodis> did 10:45:06 <Alberth> there is a NewGRF category there :) 10:45:10 <bodis> yep 10:45:35 <Alberth> unfortunately, it misses useful tagging, so unless you sort of know what to look for, it is a big pile 10:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> start slowly, with one newgrf set, explore what it does, then the next game add another, and so on 10:46:12 <Alberth> obviously these extensions are discussed at the forum 10:46:29 <bodis> k thanks 10:46:34 <bodis> I will read up 10:46:49 <bodis> but first need to get my first city going :) 10:46:56 <bodis> thanks for advice guys 10:46:59 <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=66 is the section for the newgrfs themselves. 10:47:01 <bodis> need to get me kids out again :) 10:47:06 <bodis> ty 10:47:16 <Alberth> in the openttd forums, you'll find use of them in context of openttd 10:47:26 <Alberth> yw 10:47:40 <Alberth> always glad to help someone to an addiction 10:47:42 <Alberth> :) 10:54:52 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 11:02:45 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:09:31 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:26:09 *** Chris_Booth_ [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:27:56 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:31:12 <planetmaker> <V453000> yes ... so how do you "hack" it? :) <-- there is no legal way which also looks good 11:32:19 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:32:21 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 11:33:21 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@ppp118-209-24-43.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [] 11:37:50 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 12:02:00 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9f7:2eb5:4fef:8b64] has joined #openttd 12:02:03 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:06:14 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 12:29:01 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 12:31:15 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:36:13 <ChoHag> Wtf? That's twice now supply industries have stopped shipping to connected destinations. 12:36:16 <ChoHag> Michi what did you DO? 12:37:47 <glx> how many stations around ? 12:38:00 <Alberth> any revent new destinations popped up? 12:38:04 <Alberth> *recent 12:38:06 <ChoHag> New destinations, yes. 12:38:09 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:38:27 <ChoHag> But that shouldn't close down active routes. 12:38:35 <Alberth> why not? 12:38:53 <ChoHag> Not without a big warning. "Your trains are all about to start losing money fast." 12:39:22 <peter1138> i tend to agree 12:39:33 <peter1138> a well serviced route shouldn't be replaced, imho 12:39:34 <Alberth> such a warning sounds fair enough 12:40:06 <ChoHag> Closing down is fine - business is business after all. 12:40:49 <ChoHag> But not without warning, at the very least. 12:41:05 <peter1138> it should also be supplier-centric, i reckon 12:41:07 <ChoHag> Perhaps the option of a cash injection to keep it going to see it if becomes profitable. 12:41:13 <Alberth> sounds like a setting 12:41:21 <ChoHag> ie. the ~ £100k line I'd just finished when the route closed. 12:41:45 <Alberth> oh, that happens with plain openttd too 12:41:52 <ChoHag> yup. 12:41:53 <ChoHag> PITA 12:42:30 <peter1138> something like industries prefering nearby suppliers unless a long distance supplier has greater production 12:42:37 <peter1138> would be ncie 12:43:44 <Alberth> that does not eliminate the above problem 12:44:11 <peter1138> not by itself, no 12:44:17 <ChoHag> I think perhaps supply routes can open and close in the same fashion as industries open/close. 12:44:23 <ChoHag> Probably in the same news item. 12:44:31 <Alberth> oh boy :) 12:44:56 <Alberth> there is too much such news already :) 12:45:20 <ChoHag> That way new industries can 'supply' to pretty much everything in a certain radius, then once links are made, only the profitable ones remain. 12:45:33 <ChoHag> Yeah there needs to be better news filtering 12:46:17 <Alberth> huh? --> "then once links are made, only the profitable ones remain." 12:46:18 <ChoHag> eg. ignore any industry not in a catchment area of one of my own stations. 12:46:45 * planetmaker always has turned off all news ;-) 12:46:49 <planetmaker> except vehicle crashes 12:46:50 <ChoHag> Well a coal mine (say) in the (perhaps misnamed) outgoing cargo section to everything within a certain distance. 12:46:59 <ChoHag> Then the player comes in and links some of those up. 12:47:14 <ChoHag> Eventually those which are linked up will remain in the list, the others will go away. 12:47:28 <Alberth> you are thinking of cargo-dist (dest?) 12:47:50 <ChoHag> Occasionally (not just when new industries are planted) new links will open up, perhaps with a subsidy offer, with a chance to remain if the transportation is supplied. 12:47:54 <Alberth> yacd doesn't care about what you do, afaik, at this time 12:48:05 <planetmaker> which is not too bad 12:48:25 <planetmaker> if it cared, it'd be cargodist 12:48:43 <ChoHag> There ought to be some amount of caring. 12:49:08 <planetmaker> only thing which indeed also bothers me is the high volatility of routes when there are few suppliers and many recipients of a cargo 12:49:11 <Alberth> I can imagine that to be a setting 12:49:14 <ChoHag> Usually busineses care most about those things which make actual money. 12:49:15 <Terkhen> that's work for a different patch IMO, you might want to try the cargodist addition that fonso did for yacd 12:49:52 <ChoHag> Oh I know YACD doesn't do this. 12:49:57 <ChoHag> I'm just thinking aloud. 12:50:10 <planetmaker> well. Mixing up unrelated problems doesn't help solutions at all 12:50:21 <ChoHag> How is it unrelated? 12:51:27 <ChoHag> Problem: Supply/demand links which are used nonetheless close down. Solution: Profitability of a transport is a prime deciding factor in whether a supplier continues to supply to a particular destination. 12:53:00 <ChoHag> Closely related, industries will happily supply most of their cargo to an unconnected industry on the other side of the map. 12:53:28 <planetmaker> how is the latter a problem? 12:53:38 <ChoHag> It's not. It's just a bit silly. 12:53:44 <planetmaker> why? 12:54:07 <planetmaker> where do you think the coal which is fed to the power plant a few streets further down is dug out of the Earth? 12:54:14 <Alberth> yacd just adds the idea of cargo having a destination. Policies how to allocate/maintain destinations is a level on top of that, imho 12:54:17 <planetmaker> where does the butter come from? Or the tomatoes? 12:55:04 <ChoHag> Um. Completely fucking stupid is not the same thing as 'a bit silly'. 12:55:20 <planetmaker> I don't see the 'sillyness' in it, not the least. 12:55:25 <planetmaker> It's even relaistic 12:55:30 <ChoHag> As a creator of widgets, I'm happy to sell to whoever will buy them, but more likely to sell to people close by as shipping is simpler and easier. 12:55:30 <planetmaker> *realistic 12:56:02 <ChoHag> At the very least, people close to me are more likely to buy (ie. demand) widgets from me than an identical widget manufacturer 1000s of miles away. 12:56:46 <planetmaker> unless they differ by something the rough cargo specs of OpenTTD cannot grasp 12:56:59 <ChoHag> Indeed not, but that is the exception rather than the rule. 12:57:04 <planetmaker> may that be price or functionality or whatever. 12:57:22 <planetmaker> if you say, so it must be so. I maintain to disagree. 12:57:24 <ChoHag> I daresay that more of the oil drilled out of the North Sea goes to the Scottish refineries than those in the US or the far east. 12:57:32 <ChoHag> Some will, undoubtedly. 12:57:36 <Thorn_> Yes, the north sea belongs to us. 12:57:49 <Thorn_> And we will take it back, and with it, our FREEDOM 12:59:45 <ChoHag> This is not my opinion. 12:59:48 <ChoHag> It's business 101. 13:00:11 <ChoHag> Buy cheap, sell dear. Cheep is directly correlated with Close (ie. transportation costs). 13:00:40 <fjb> The transport company does not buy the cargo. It just transports it. So when a factory at the other side of the map buys some stuff it has to be transported there somehow. 13:00:50 <ChoHag> There's always a reason why a general rule doesn't hold in a specific case, but that doesn't stop it from being a general rule. 13:01:04 <ChoHag> Well yes. 13:01:35 <ChoHag> But the liklihood of a factory buying stuff from the other side of the world is a lot lower than the likilhood of buying stuff from a supplier a few hundres miles away. 13:01:37 <planetmaker> fjb just made your whole argument void, though ;-) 13:02:04 <fjb> TTD is about transporting stuff, not about buying it. 13:02:44 <ChoHag> Yes, and that's why it turned into a game of find-the-longest-link-you-can. 13:02:46 <ChoHag> Which is fine. 13:03:27 <ChoHag> But YACD is a (generally quite successful) attempt to undo that by introducing, or perhaps correcting, the concept of supply and demand. 13:03:29 <fjb> Longest link doesn't always give the most profit. 13:03:51 <fjb> Even without YADP. 13:04:25 <Belugas> hello 13:05:19 <Terkhen> hi Belugas 13:05:35 <fjb> Moin Belugas 13:06:11 <Belugas> hi guys :) 13:08:06 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-181-212.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 13:12:16 *** manveru [~m_felling@KD114017221254.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:19:41 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 13:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=145144 <-- a few things like aligning and widget size are not right in this picture... 13:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and big gui without big font seems kinda pointless 13:23:26 <Terkhen> yes, I wonder why he did not change it 13:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> all button texts should be center-aligned imho 13:26:53 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0497ba.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 13:28:06 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:31:40 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 13:31:48 <andythenorth> hello 13:33:55 <fjb> Moin andythenorth 13:41:39 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth 13:43:44 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:47:02 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 13:52:31 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 13:57:37 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 14:00:52 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.68.243] has joined #openttd 14:03:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "Graphics set: original_dos_de (0)" <-- does anyone have a statistics how the distribution between base set usage is? 14:06:55 <Rubidium> pm does, IIRC 14:07:00 <Rubidium> although... 14:07:29 <Rubidium> ... it's more a bug report per base set statistic 14:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> could crawl the screenshot forum ;) 14:08:51 <Rubidium> I guess it's better that orudge runs osie over all attachments or something 14:11:09 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: http://pastebin.com/F3rvp9C7 14:11:26 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, about 65% of the bug reporters use OpenGFX 14:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting 14:12:21 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/245/ 14:12:35 <planetmaker> not a huge statistical basis, but... consistent 14:13:28 <Rubidium> ah, I forgot ones they pasted as a comment 14:14:05 <Rubidium> but yes, as you can see... 6 times as many people use no graphics than the original german dos graphics 14:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> how does one use "no" graphics? 14:14:47 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.68.243] has quit [Quit: bbl] 14:15:36 <Rubidium> crash before a graphics set is chosen 14:15:51 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:16:03 <planetmaker> Rubidium, how did you get by that statistics? 14:16:43 <Rubidium> grepping the tracker's attachments 14:17:08 <planetmaker> so all attachment since when flyspray started? 14:17:12 <Rubidium> yep 14:17:29 <planetmaker> that gives a certain bias ;-) 14:17:41 <Rubidium> why? 14:18:00 <planetmaker> as OpenGFX was not around since the beginnings of FlySpray? Or do I err? 14:18:06 <Rubidium> true 14:18:10 <Rubidium> very true in fact 14:18:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but nobody cares about opengfx ;) 14:18:20 <Rubidium> but... 14:18:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the bias for non-unique users is way bigger 14:18:36 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, not in the data set I provided 14:18:53 <planetmaker> but yes, it is. But my data also show that that bias is not big 14:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and i guess the number of bug reports actually increased 14:19:18 *** Chris_Booth is now known as Guest3292 14:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you also need to consider that the crashlog is not as old as flyspray either 14:19:34 <Rubidium> ... the crash logger data grep crawled through was only introduced in 1.0.0, whereas OpenGFX existed a dozen moons before that 14:19:47 *** marius [~marius@rsclans.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:19:55 <planetmaker> :-) also true 14:20:21 <Ammler> hmm, what was first opengfx or openttd dos support? 14:20:29 *** OwenS [~oshepherd@kamina.ldn1.uk.e43.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:20:30 <planetmaker> the latter 14:20:35 <Ammler> but not much 14:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> what? dos graphics support was almost as old as openttd itself 14:21:35 <Ammler> nah 14:21:41 <Ammler> 0.5 didn't have it 14:21:57 <Ammler> not sure about 0.6 14:22:00 <Rubidium> Ammler: closeer to half a gross of moons 14:22:28 <Rubidium> Ammler: look for "OpenTTD runs with the grf files of the DOS version" in the changelog 14:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i'd rather say openttd was palette-agnostic right from the beginning, only since newgrfs came along the trouble started with multiplayer 14:23:42 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, not true 14:23:53 <peter1138> hmm, well, sort of 14:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway DOS grf support was here long before i came 14:24:12 <peter1138> dos grf support wasn't just about palettes 14:24:23 <peter1138> the dos grfs miss some sprites that the windows grfs have 14:24:35 <planetmaker> hu? 14:24:52 <Eddi|zuHause> anything other than the fishuk-icon? 14:25:23 <peter1138> - Fix: Non-existing sprite #5125 (presignal). The DOS grf file trgi.grf has 6 less sprites than the windows one [SF#1188777] 14:26:10 <peter1138> yes, sourceforge, not flyspray :) 14:26:25 <Ammler> hmm, well :-) 14:26:33 <peter1138> that fix is r2229 14:26:45 *** OwenS [~oshepherd@2002:6d4a:c7b0::1] has joined #openttd 14:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so nobody even tried for 1200 revisions? :p 14:27:05 <Rubidium> planetmaker: those are the fisheye things. The rest is just because for DOS it put the extra GRFs' sprites 6 positions earlier 14:28:11 *** marius [~marius@rsclans.net] has joined #openttd 14:28:29 <peter1138> (svn r1038) Feature: OpenTTD runs with the grf files of the DOS version 14:28:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "MI6 replaces bomb-building instructions with cake-recipie" 14:28:38 <peter1138> so it didn't, before that 14:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but large parts of that revision only handles the filenames 14:30:08 <peter1138> a lot of it is the palettes 14:33:43 *** marius [~marius@rsclans.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:54 <planetmaker> hm, a certain Terkhen was faster with the reply in the water tower and banks thread ;-) 14:45:08 <Rubidium> planetmaker: http://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/newgrf.html 14:47:22 <Rubidium> so much time wasted to make it valid html ;) 14:47:32 *** Guest3292 is now known as Chris_Booth 14:47:46 <planetmaker> :-) thank you 14:48:01 <planetmaker> plain text would have sufficed ;-) 14:50:50 <planetmaker> he... there's a surprising amount of variation of what actually NewStations v0.42 from 05.09.05 actually is ;-) 14:51:13 <planetmaker> 7 or 8 md5sums... 14:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the name is wrong anyway, it's actually NewStations v0.44 14:52:32 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 14:52:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have 3 different grfs by 2 palettes, makes 6 files 14:54:39 <planetmaker> World Airliners Set Modified Development Release r538 <-- also around several times 14:55:03 <planetmaker> ttrs 3.02a around also a couple of times (6) 14:55:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what data is the foundation of this list? 14:55:34 <planetmaker> servers reporting their use 14:55:59 <planetmaker> I assume. As I asked for it ;-) 14:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> currently running servers? 14:57:49 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:02:15 <Rubidium> nope, all used NewGRFs by any server that the masterserver's updater did have the time for to get the name for 15:03:30 <Rubidium> (there are 3 newgrfs it didn't get the name for so those aren't listed) 15:04:19 <peter1138> lol 15:04:24 <peter1138> grif 00000001 15:04:26 <peter1138> *grfid 15:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> aren't there some GRFIDs that are reserved? 15:04:58 <peter1138> lots of HEQS 15:05:00 <planetmaker> FFxxxxxx 15:05:20 <peter1138> hmm, people using opengfx as newgrf? 15:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> there are tons of ECS grfs 15:05:34 <Rubidium> probably from long long ago 15:05:38 <planetmaker> Thus the last two should not be there. But there's some sleeping bug, IIRC 15:05:46 <peter1138> FBFB seems popular 15:05:51 <planetmaker> foobar 15:06:12 <planetmaker> it's his "call sign" 15:06:15 <Rubidium> when the check wasn't working correctly 15:06:20 <peter1138> fbfb0401 is metro track, and also firs 15:06:21 <planetmaker> yes 15:06:31 <planetmaker> :-) 15:06:32 <Rubidium> or even... the extra grf used in 0.6.x 15:07:39 <peter1138> GRF\çé¢\OTTDæž©æèå°.grf 15:07:39 <peter1138> i see 15:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so all servers that ever reported to the masterserver? 15:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> (and that were online for a significant amount of time) 15:09:17 <Rubidium> since sept 2007 IIRC 15:09:44 <Rubidium> or since I rewrote the masterserver 15:09:48 <Rubidium> whichever came last 15:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "Doppelstockwagen DBz750" <-- some grfs are out there that i never heard of 15:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> 5353xxxx 15:12:20 <peter1138> 504Exxxx is me 15:12:30 <peter1138> dunno about russianw.grf though 15:12:37 <peter1138> could be though 15:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> glyphs? 15:12:56 <peter1138> yeah, i might've done a unicode version of the original 15:14:01 <planetmaker> now, though... do we make an authorative list of taken grfIDs from that? 15:14:26 <planetmaker> similar to how people can claim AI short names? 15:14:52 <Ammler> train length display in the depot does not work with Verdana 15:15:54 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it is a list of taken GRF IDs 15:16:26 <Rubidium> but I wouldn't call it authorative 15:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if FBFB is foobar, what is 4642 then? (that should be "FB" if i didn't miscount) 15:17:59 <peter1138> probably uses both :) 15:18:00 <planetmaker> Rubidium, it's certainly not all NewGRFs and their IDs. But it certainly would be a good start. 15:18:33 <Rubidium> you could compare it to the grfid list from grfcrawler 15:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it certainly serves for blocking these IDs from bananas 15:19:00 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, doesn't make sense. Authors might want to upload them 15:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: name comparison? 15:19:26 <planetmaker> How? 15:19:38 <peter1138> besides, if you blocked based on id, someone would just change the id 15:19:51 <planetmaker> that'd be the point 15:20:08 <planetmaker> to not add new newgrfs using an already taken ID. But still... 15:20:50 <Rubidium> if they're not on bananas yet, who really cares? 15:21:03 * planetmaker doesn't ;-) 15:21:57 <planetmaker> Uploaded IDs are already blocked by default 15:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: someone who wants to upload such a GRF gets a message: "a GRF with ID XX XX XX XX and name YYYY already exists, but is not uploaded to BaNaNaS yet. if you are the author of this set, please contact <support> for permission to upload. if you have a different set, please change the GRFID, check <website> for list of used GRF-IDs" 15:23:18 <Eddi|zuHause> with fixed style ;) 15:23:24 <planetmaker> :-) 15:24:16 <planetmaker> Might make sense. But then, admittedly, I don't think that any of the old NewGRFs which are not on bananas will ever get there - thus I'm not really convinced it is work well spent 15:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> err... there's a NewShips with ID 6D32...? "mB"? 15:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause> no 15:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> not even that 15:25:06 * Alberth reads m2 15:25:15 <Eddi|zuHause> m2, yes 15:26:25 <planetmaker> maybe an eddi-like hack of an existing NewGRF ;-) 15:26:35 <planetmaker> to circumvent some whatever check 15:28:29 *** Adambean` [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 15:30:02 <planetmaker> my search string query is too long for grfcrawler ;-) 15:30:23 * Rubidium sees that as a low priority feature request... first all the bugs in bananas ought to be fixed ;) 15:30:39 <Rubidium> planetmaker: just request a "dump" of grfid + name from eis_os 15:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> a simple website with a search field "is this grfid used yet" might be useful. put it in a sticky in the grf development forum 15:32:39 <peter1138> one day it'll support 32bpp too 15:32:40 <planetmaker> but there's no place yet which to query, Eddi|zuHause 15:32:54 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:33:00 *** OwenS [~oshepherd@2002:6d4a:c7b0::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:33:18 <planetmaker> 4 of 41 IDs found on the first test in grfcrawler 15:33:49 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 15:35:25 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'd like to know the reverse 15:35:37 <Rubidium> how many ids from grfcrawler are known by the masterserver 15:36:07 <planetmaker> let's see what he'll reply 15:42:41 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.189.47] has joined #openttd 15:42:42 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CFA5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is the "Do not put files into content_download, they may be overwritten" thing part of the readme? 15:45:18 <planetmaker> the "do not put them there" yes. Overwritten... not really. 15:45:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.112.99.213] has joined #openttd 15:45:37 <planetmaker> But it's clearly said that user files have no belonging there 15:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> well, better add it 15:46:38 <planetmaker> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/tags/1.1.1/readme.txt#L297 <-- who doesn't obey it... 15:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe even put a "directories.txt" (copy of section 4.2) into ~/.openttd 15:49:02 <planetmaker> also a readme_files.txt? ;-) 15:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> redundancy is very important in educating people :p 15:50:59 <planetmaker> which then lists readme, known_bugs, changelog.txt, docs/admin_network,txt, docs/Readme_OS2.txt, docs/o??_format.txt docs/multiplayer.txt docs/landscape*.html docs/HOWTO_compile_lang_files.txt docs/ReadmeWindows_MSVC.txt 15:51:06 <planetmaker> oh, docs/32bpp.txt 15:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i mean, people who manage to find My Documents\OpenTTD might have never seen the binary and its readme before 15:52:38 <planetmaker> I mean... readme has even a table of content. So who doesn't open a readme doesn't look into directories.txt either 15:52:49 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 15:53:03 <planetmaker> that might be true. But that then just should mean to place the readme.txt there 15:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> possible 15:53:58 *** OwenS [~oshepherd@kamina.ldn1.uk.e43.eu] has joined #openttd 15:54:20 <planetmaker> which then c/should mention where to find the additional doc files... maybe just another copy of the readme file 16:04:54 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:21:32 <andythenorth> Ammler: there was some talk about a bananas dev environment, maybe on a vm? 16:23:21 <Ammler> andythenorth: no problem, just tell me what you need 16:23:27 <andythenorth> I'm not sure 16:23:35 <andythenorth> I don't know how the production environment is configured 16:23:36 <andythenorth> :) 16:23:40 <andythenorth> who does? 16:23:52 <Ammler> Truebrain only maybe :-) 16:23:52 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 16:24:07 <andythenorth> hmmph 16:24:49 <planetmaker> nginx and django. The database is MySQL afaik 16:25:09 <andythenorth> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/gocept.nginx :P 16:25:11 <Ammler> I guess, we could simply use the svn? 16:25:18 <planetmaker> of what? 16:25:32 <Ammler> bananas? 16:26:16 <planetmaker> not quite, I guess. It can't be in the repo as there are files which contain passwords 16:26:32 <planetmaker> but it's a start 16:27:03 <Rubidium> everything but the passwords are in subversion 16:27:05 <Ammler> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/extra/website/bananas 16:28:16 <Ammler> andythenorth: are you able to setup a server? 16:28:27 <Rubidium> IIRC you need the whole website directory 16:28:50 <Ammler> Rubidium: not possible for you to setup a kind of stage server? 16:28:55 <Ammler> might be easier... 16:28:59 *** Bjarte [bjarte@playing.OpenTTD.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:29:19 <Ammler> not that I mind :-) 16:29:29 <TrueBrain> better question, why you would want something like that 16:29:52 <Ammler> TrueBrain: how should andythenorth test patches for bananas? 16:30:13 <TrueBrain> not; BaNaNaS should be considered dead 16:30:16 <TrueBrain> and only be used to study 16:30:20 <TrueBrain> making patches for it is silly 16:30:35 <Ammler> you think, someone should start from scratch? 16:31:19 <Yexo> why should someone start from scratch if there already is a codebase available? 16:31:22 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Juo] 16:31:27 <Yexo> ie why would making patches for bananas be silly? 16:31:56 <TrueBrain> I love that I have to say the same thing every 3 months or so :D :D :) 16:32:00 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is poorly written 16:32:04 <TrueBrain> and performance poorly 16:32:10 <TrueBrain> reading the code would be identical to writing it from scratch 16:32:14 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: also if bananas in your eyes has a broken leg, that's no argument against people trying to provide a walking stick 16:32:16 <TrueBrain> wirting from scratch in this case will be much better 16:32:19 <TrueBrain> trust me, I wrote it :) 16:32:32 <TrueBrain> it is nice to read it, and use it. But making patches will do more harm :) 16:32:35 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you ask this way for others to make the same mistake(s) again 16:32:35 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:32:43 <TrueBrain> starting from scratch will give a much better platform :) 16:32:57 <planetmaker> and "will do more harm" is why a test environment is asked for 16:33:03 <Ammler> well, andythenorth did you study the bananas source? 16:33:08 <Yexo> TrueBrain: you keep saying that (same for WT), but what exactly is so wrong with the current platform? 16:33:19 <Yexo> and will someone else who starts from scratch not make exactly the same mistake? 16:33:31 <TrueBrain> Yexo: constraints changed 16:33:34 <TrueBrain> a lot even 16:33:47 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: OpenTTD was also not re-written when transition from c -> c++ happend. what's different here? 16:33:52 <TrueBrain> the whole database is poorly designed for what it has to be now 16:34:21 <TrueBrain> ugh .. guys: I don't care what you do. My advise is: start from scratch. If you don't want to follwo that advice, I don't care (really, I don't. There is a reason this is open source) 16:34:32 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is poorly designed 16:34:38 <TrueBrain> it should be start from scratch, with a good design document 16:34:41 <TrueBrain> with good goals 16:34:41 <planetmaker> you may know what and how things could work better. But others can learn probably a lot and see the limitations if they could test... 16:36:17 <andythenorth> Ammler: I have read some of the bananas source 16:36:35 <TrueBrain> let me just conclude with 3 things: 1) good luck setting up a dev-env (wish it was different, it isn't). 2) we are not going to make tons of minor database changes. 3) a from-scratch approach will be much easier for who-ever does this, as he is no longer bound by the constraints of the framework we created years ago 16:36:49 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: what are the key performance issues? 16:36:57 <TrueBrain> performance issues: non 16:37:00 <TrueBrain> constraints: lots 16:37:09 <TrueBrain> check out http://bugs.openttd.org/ 16:37:11 <TrueBrain> under Website 16:37:15 <TrueBrain> few good topics with what is wrong 16:37:26 <planetmaker> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html <-- I'm reminded of this article, TrueBrain ;-) 16:38:09 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I am not a noob in software development. Trust me, if I say a from-scratch is better, it is. If you don't believe me ... feel free to find out :) 16:38:15 <TrueBrain> again, I don't care. I am just giving you guys suggestions :) 16:38:58 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how 'big' is bananas 16:39:00 <Alberth> Yexo: WT needs generalizing to arbitrary newgrfs imho. 16:39:03 <TrueBrain> it still makes me smile if I realise how abuse we are towards the used Python framework (django) :) So totally abused :p 16:39:08 <Yexo> there are currently 5 open bus in the BaNaNaS category. 1 of them seems to be a simple bug in the code (the tags one) 16:39:14 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: size in what way? 16:39:19 <Yexo> 3 of them are about dependencies 16:39:19 <andythenorth> complexity 16:39:29 <Yexo> TrueBrain: is that the part where the constraints changed? 16:39:30 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: few hunderd lines 16:39:32 <TrueBrain> nothing fancy 16:39:36 <andythenorth> number of complicated things depending on other complicated things? 16:39:46 <TrueBrain> Yexo: the system was designed for something different than how it is used, yes :) 16:39:52 <TrueBrain> I knew that after a month already :p 16:39:59 <Alberth> django is not the best framework for complex stuff it seems, judging from #python comments I read 16:40:06 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the only 'big' thing is the link to ottd_content 16:40:06 <andythenorth> I have to learn pyramid 16:40:12 <TrueBrain> Alberth: it really isn't :) 16:40:17 <TrueBrain> if I could do it over, I would never use django :) 16:40:20 <TrueBrain> it works for small sites 16:40:26 <TrueBrain> for anything bigger ... omfg ... 16:40:34 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: what would you use? 16:40:41 <TrueBrain> Pylons tbh .. 16:40:44 <TrueBrain> or even PHP :P 16:40:46 <andythenorth> ok 16:40:51 <Yexo> Alberth: wrt WT, I completely agree 16:40:57 <TrueBrain> the biggest mistake in my opinion was the fact I thought more people could contribute 16:41:01 <andythenorth> well I have to learn pyramid for 2 non-openttd projects 16:41:04 <TrueBrain> with Django, only a handful know what the fuck they are doing :p 16:41:17 <andythenorth> switching to pyramid is complete new system fallacy, but...whatever 16:41:21 <TrueBrain> if it would have been PHP, problems would be solved so much quicker 16:41:29 <Yexo> TrueBrain: you're not exactly making it easy for other people to contribute either 16:41:32 <TrueBrain> (then again, PHP is slow :p) 16:41:41 <andythenorth> I can't even figure out how to patch :P 16:41:44 <orudge> Plus, you can write pretty elegant PHP these days 16:41:48 <andythenorth> I'm used to having a buildout for the framework 16:41:49 <Yexo> some instructions on how to set up a local test environment would go a long way towards that 16:41:50 <orudge> well, I suppose you could in the past, but most people didn't ;) 16:41:54 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: good luck with trying to get it to run :D I am terrified doing that again ... 16:42:04 <andythenorth> I'm not going to bother 16:42:06 <TrueBrain> Yexo: that is exactly the point. Django is not made for that, and I have no fucking clue 16:42:21 <TrueBrain> orudge: haha, true there 16:42:27 <Yexo> ok, that definitely is a big problem than :) 16:42:45 <TrueBrain> Yexo: and we still use django ancient. I am terrified of upgrading 16:42:53 <TrueBrain> there is a reason I keep saying: rewrite over patching :p 16:43:00 <Yexo> now you're here: any updates on WT 3.1? Or is that also still in the planning stage 16:43:20 <TrueBrain> if study doesn't consume my time, OpenDUNE does. So no progress what-so-ever 16:43:34 <Zuu> I guess that's a problem with all frameworks, that they are hard to upgrade? 16:43:47 <TrueBrain> Zuu: they are. And the amount of hacks we used didn't make it easier :) 16:43:52 <Yexo> fair enough 16:43:52 <TrueBrain> we cheated so many times to get what we wanted :) 16:43:58 <andythenorth> pyramid has awesome documentation, unusual for a python project :P 16:43:58 <Zuu> :-) 16:43:59 <andythenorth> http://docs.pylonsproject.org/docs/pyramid.html 16:44:19 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: take it from me, your first 5 projects will be terrible :D 16:44:29 <andythenorth> I know :P 16:44:45 <Zuu> So you'll get a basket full of bad fruit. 16:44:47 <andythenorth> that's why I wouldn't mind if one of those was bananas, not software that has paying clients 16:44:59 <TrueBrain> feel free :) 16:45:16 <TrueBrain> ottd_content requires some tables to be in a certain state, but that is changable 16:45:32 <TrueBrain> the rest is free, design-wise 16:48:01 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: and regarding BaNaNaS, if you ever want to get some feedback on ideas and designs, just PM me. I can assist you as far as my memory streches regarding current implementation :) 16:49:11 *** manveru [~m_felling@EM114-48-91-184.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #openttd 16:49:22 <andythenorth> thanks 16:49:27 <andythenorth> I would need a collaborator 16:49:33 <andythenorth> my database design skills suck 16:49:50 <SpComb> just use XML 16:50:35 <andythenorth> oh 16:50:36 <TrueBrain> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2795 16:50:38 <andythenorth> of course :P 16:50:39 <TrueBrain> names most of the things 16:51:15 <TrueBrain> not sure if it is in there, but I believe there was also a demand that you could add a 'depend on' grf which auto-updates to newer versions or something .. can't really remember, not always paying attention :) 16:52:43 <SpComb> great thing about Python web frameworks is there are so many to choose from 16:52:47 <SpComb> the annoying thing about .. 16:52:52 <TrueBrain> ^^ 16:53:09 <andythenorth> that's why pylons and repoze.bfg were merged 16:53:14 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: also, I wrote BaNaNaS I believe in 1 or 2 days. To give another idea of 'big' 16:53:21 * SpComb preferrs werkzeug 16:53:23 <TrueBrain> Pylons merged with like 5 other projects :p 16:53:40 <SpComb> one step up from stdlib cgi 16:53:44 <andythenorth> I haven't used django 16:54:01 <andythenorth> grok is odd 16:54:04 <andythenorth> zope is overkill 16:54:07 <andythenorth> plone is a monster 16:54:44 <TrueBrain> RoR is worse :D 16:55:50 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: is the performance particularly an issue? 16:55:58 <andythenorth> seems bananas doesn't need to do many write? 16:56:05 <andythenorth> quite a lot of reads 16:56:09 <TrueBrain> speed-wise, there are no issues at all 16:56:10 <andythenorth> not many complex queries 16:56:13 <TrueBrain> everything is fast and speedy 16:56:35 * andythenorth ponders using zodb 16:56:36 <TrueBrain> the complexity of BaNaNaS is not in the frontend, it is in the uploading tbh :) 16:56:56 <andythenorth> bbl 16:57:01 <TrueBrain> things have to depend on eachother, more people want to contribute, blabla :) 16:57:19 <Zuu> Possible also in the variety of actions that it need to support for uploaders. 16:57:32 <Zuu> Eg. selection of old libraries as dependencies etc. 16:57:51 <TrueBrain> and give these dudes 10 minutes, and you have a long long long long list :D 16:58:04 <Zuu> :-) 16:58:12 <andythenorth> meh to that 16:58:23 <TrueBrain> AMQP can be nice for uploading :D 17:01:43 <TrueBrain> bit over the top I guess 17:02:11 <SpComb> we obviously need to write the web frontend in C 17:02:20 <TrueBrain> LOL! 17:02:57 <TrueBrain> always someone who can go over it :D 17:03:25 <SpComb> people have done it! 17:03:31 <SpComb> e.g. fossil 17:03:44 <TrueBrain> some people are insane :P 17:04:20 <SpComb> ..and the coursework we did this spring 17:04:37 <SpComb> #include "sqlite3.h" 17:07:02 <TrueBrain> I learnt last year that I really dislike the Python language :p 17:07:11 <TrueBrain> most noticable, the indentation 17:07:41 <SpComb> invalid criticism, not accepted 17:07:50 <TrueBrain> :D 17:07:59 <SpComb> python's indentation is very flexible 17:08:17 <SpComb> you can do very nice multi-line expressions 17:08:31 <TrueBrain> makes code si fucking hard to read :( 17:09:30 *** manveru [~m_felling@EM114-48-91-184.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:13:49 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:15:09 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:15:26 <Ammler> rails would be a good framework, but there is no ruby coder 17:15:54 *** Chris_Booth is now known as Guest3313 17:16:07 <TrueBrain> they all died out of crazyness :p 17:16:12 <Ammler> :-) 17:17:01 *** Guest3313 is now known as Chris_Booth 17:18:47 <Rubidium> isn't ruby for Japanese? 17:19:05 <Ammler> hehe 17:21:35 <Ammler> well, anyway, if there is need for a stage server or whatever, just ping me :-) 17:21:45 <Thorn_> ruby coders don't last long, at some point they all go off the rails 17:21:54 <TrueBrain> nice one Thorn_ :D 17:22:09 <Thorn_> ;) 17:22:30 <Ammler> but rails would be so nice for openttd :-) 17:22:53 <orudge> I thought the aim was to rewrite it in something people know? ;) 17:23:12 <orudge> sounds like x86 assembler would be best 17:23:13 <Ammler> orudge: that might be php only 17:23:17 <TrueBrain> hmm ... a new design won't hurt either :D 17:23:19 <Thorn_> haskell 17:23:26 <orudge> Ammler: which might not be such a bad thing :) 17:23:32 * orudge is potentially going to play around this weekend with some ideas 17:23:40 <orudge> whether anything will come of them, I don't know, but we'll see 17:23:45 <TrueBrain> I wouldn't mind PHP at this stage :) 17:23:46 <orudge> depends on how much I end up drinking tomorrow I suppose :P 17:23:59 <Ammler> a merge of bananas and grfgrawler? 17:24:02 <orudge> no, no 17:24:09 <TrueBrain> at least would give some continuity 17:24:10 <orudge> just potentially rewriting the main web site framework in PHP 17:24:13 <orudge> although 17:24:23 <orudge> moving the web site to something sane would at least aid that idea ;) 17:25:05 <orudge> using something like Smarty would seem to be straightforward, well-known and a hell of a lot easier to administer than the current stuff :P 17:25:08 <Ammler> there are just so many php frameworks 17:25:12 <orudge> well, yes 17:25:17 <TrueBrain> orudge: nothing wrong with the templates tbh :) 17:25:22 <Ammler> you will for sure chose the wrong 17:25:26 <orudge> TrueBrain: the templates themselves, no 17:25:43 <orudge> Ammler: maybe, but generally, picking one of the more popular ones seems to make sense, no? 17:25:44 <TrueBrain> just PHP is so incredibly slow :( 17:25:54 <Rubidium> jsp! 17:25:57 <TrueBrain> CakePHP or Prado :p 17:26:12 * Zuu has coded some ruby, but not more than say 1000-2000 lines in total. 17:26:23 <TrueBrain> Zuu: keep it that way :D 17:26:37 <Zuu> It's nice, but python wins for its larger user base. 17:26:45 <TrueBrain> yup 17:26:47 <orudge> TrueBrain: hmm, well, that can be improved, to some degree, with the likes of eAccelerator, and a decent FastCGI web server 17:26:52 <orudge> but yes, I guess it can be 17:26:54 <orudge> anyway 17:26:57 <orudge> I should maybe get some dinner 17:26:58 <Zuu> And all the development team issues with Ruby. 17:27:05 <TrueBrain> what I like about RoR and django etc, is that they stay in memory, and have much shorter paths to travel 17:27:08 <TrueBrain> PHP keeps booting up :p 17:27:16 <orudge> I guess there's always mod_php ;) 17:27:23 <TrueBrain> openttd.org works without caching (had to disable it :D) 17:27:28 <TrueBrain> and still we can handle a slashdot :p 17:27:31 <Rubidium> I'm not sure whether php really is an issue, but... it seems like most sites written in it use a global connection to the webserver 17:27:50 <Rubidium> ... which means all sites running there'll use the same connection :( 17:28:07 <Zuu> Also most programs that has an API for extension support Python - not ruby. 17:28:13 <orudge> Rubidium: well, if you're using FastCGI, then it depends on how you set it up, really. 17:28:20 <Ammler> Zuu: or REST 17:28:30 <orudge> if you're using mod_php, then everything runs under the Apache process (I don't think there's a mod_php for any other web servers these days, except maybe IIS) 17:28:37 <Zuu> Ammler: REST? 17:28:42 <orudge> unless I'm confusing what you mean 17:28:48 <Rubidium> orudge: might very well be, but I'm not that into webserver configuration 17:28:58 <TrueBrain> orudge: ugh, lets not use apache :D 17:29:06 <orudge> TrueBrain: I'd really rather not :P 17:29:21 <orudge> I'm a lighttpd fan, but then I tend to use it in fairly simple configurations 17:29:28 <orudge> so I've never really encountered all these leaks and bugs you seem to have 17:29:48 <TrueBrain> bigger sites more problems :) 17:29:51 <TrueBrain> nginx works very well 17:30:00 <TrueBrain> but ... we max out what we can deliver for mediawiki atm 17:30:20 <Rubidium> yeah, that beast is obnoxious 17:30:21 <TrueBrain> I have some ideas for it thou .. 17:30:25 <Ammler> Zuu: or is that just api for rails? 17:30:30 <TrueBrain> but that requires ... 'other things' to happen first :p 17:30:39 <TrueBrain> REST is a design principle 17:30:57 <TrueBrain> build on HTTP/1.1 protocol 17:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> why don't these things ever have google-able names 17:31:39 <Rubidium> anyhow, for whoever who wants to change bananas... please keep the columns of the tables that the content server uses the same ;) 17:31:45 <Ammler> orudge: isn't lightly also going to die? 17:31:52 <TrueBrain> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_State_Transfer 17:32:08 <orudge> Amis: is it? 17:32:13 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: well, that also might use some refactoring ;) :D 17:32:22 <SpComb> lighty died a while ago 17:32:23 <Amis> orudge, misstab? 17:32:37 <orudge> Amis: quite 17:32:41 <orudge> Ammler: is it? 17:32:42 <orudge> :p 17:32:45 <Amis> >.< 17:32:46 <Ammler> orudge: last release somewhen last year :-) 17:32:48 <TrueBrain> News 17:32:50 <TrueBrain> 1.4.28 17:32:51 <TrueBrain> August 22nd, 2010 17:32:53 <TrueBrain> nuff said 17:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> mis-stabs are evil :p 17:33:00 <SpComb> and no bugfixes/features for ages during that year either 17:33:07 <SpComb> it's dead 17:33:25 <TrueBrain> http://www.cherokee-project.com/ <- good alternative for the more complex work 17:33:33 <TrueBrain> for simple work, nginx rules 17:33:39 <Ammler> people go back to apache or switch to nginx 17:33:39 <TrueBrain> almost no memory, very fast, very consistent 17:34:44 <SpComb> missing CGI annoyed me a little with nginx 17:34:56 <andythenorth> Ammler: can we afford the memory ruby needs? Seems to need as much as plone 17:34:58 <Ammler> SpComb uwsgi for pyhton 17:35:17 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I think the contentserver side is quite fine; I don't see what major refactoring would be needed in it 17:35:17 <Ammler> andythenorth: devzone needs around 700MB 17:35:18 <andythenorth> many projects have ditched RoR 17:35:30 <Ammler> but that is with all the vcs too 17:35:45 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: something about stats? :) 17:35:59 <andythenorth> hmm 17:36:18 <TrueBrain> yeah, sadly RoR is slowly fading 17:36:20 <andythenorth> anyway, if *someone* wants to collaborate with me *and* use python...I'll have a go 17:36:36 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you don't like PHP? :D 17:36:49 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: hmm, true... though that might be better done in a script running e.g. daily 17:37:00 <Ammler> andythenorth: you can have a fresh vps with the distro of your choice 17:37:02 <andythenorth> complex answer: no I don't like php, but my opinion is not valid 17:37:06 <andythenorth> short answer: no 17:37:08 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yeah, but remember the document we wrote ... a year ago, about new way of colelcting stats? :) 17:37:16 <TrueBrain> required some refactoring in some tables ottd_ uses :) 17:37:53 <Rubidium> yep 17:37:59 * andythenorth would sack the tags personally 17:38:10 <andythenorth> and just rely on authors writing good descriptions, then text search those 17:38:16 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: in all honesty, but that is just me speaking, I am very unsure about Python for OpenTTD. We have this website now for .. 5 years? Not a single person outside me or Rubidium has ever written a patch for it as far as I know. Then people can complain about the lack of availability etc, but you are the first (!) person to ask how to set it up himself 17:38:41 <andythenorth> if anyone wanted to switch to PHP, there would be much more support 17:38:46 <andythenorth> but I wouldn't work on it 17:38:51 <TrueBrain> the tags are, in my opinion again, a missed try. We wanted to get them to use, but as far as I can see, they aren't really used :) It was nice if it would have worked, but it doesn't seem to work :) 17:38:54 <Rubidium> though I rather keep the content server as trivial as possible and do the difficult "splitting" bit in an external script 17:39:04 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I agree :) 17:39:21 <andythenorth> bananas should be switched to wordpress 17:39:26 <andythenorth> that would do it 17:39:33 <Rubidium> like there's a script that parses the httpd-logs into a the binary statistics 17:39:49 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: not a bad idea, to make ottd_content write a log file of access 17:39:52 <TrueBrain> and parse that 17:39:55 <TrueBrain> instead of writing to mysql 17:40:13 <TrueBrain> might also be nice for masterserver 17:40:20 <TrueBrain> to get some idea about MP usage etc 17:40:25 <Rubidium> true, though then the "download" stats per newgrf aren't live anymore 17:40:25 <Zuu> Hmm, maybe it would help to get more support if no framework is used? 17:40:28 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has joined #openttd 17:40:43 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: updater is better suited for statistics gathering 17:40:44 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: true; but do we really want that? 17:41:03 <TrueBrain> the UPDATE downloads+=1 is pretty expensive 17:41:44 <TrueBrain> and of course the content service is _much_ more used then initial estimated :) 17:43:26 <TrueBrain> regarding frontpage, I leave it to the other developer to pick that direction. Go back to PHP, or keep rowing in Python :) 17:43:27 <Zuu> Sounds like classical traffic theory. When access is easier, more people will use it. 17:43:50 <TrueBrain> Zuu: and the more dangerous it becomes that it gets out of control :D But yes :) 17:44:24 <TrueBrain> on a month I still get a lot of emails from people asking for help regarding OpenTTD or the CF. Nobody ever mailed me how to setup the website :p Says a lot about how unknown many people are with django I guess :) 17:45:09 <peter1138> why would anyone else want to set up the website? 17:45:23 <TrueBrain> for development, for one 17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22533 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt czech.txt): 17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau 17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by rala 17:45:32 <TrueBrain> and in the past we had people setting up the server-page only on their own master server 17:45:32 <peter1138> yeah but nobody does that 17:45:35 <TrueBrain> in LAN parties and stuff 17:45:37 <peter1138> it's always someone... 17:45:37 <TrueBrain> was really funny :p 17:45:55 <peter1138> funny ? 17:46:00 <TrueBrain> that people do that? Yes! 17:46:05 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD on LAN parties? That is just epic 17:46:39 *** Adambean` [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:47:45 <__ln__> When there's OpenTTD, what else could people possibly need on a LAN party. 17:48:07 <Thorn_> I can only imagine bearded stoners sitting for hours on end passing the joint and competing over bus routes 17:48:18 <andythenorth> no framework == make your own accounts, your own acls, your own template language 17:48:29 <andythenorth> your own dispatcher, error framework 17:48:44 <andythenorth> request handler, database connectors 17:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what does "stoner" have to do with either "lan party" or "openttd"? 17:49:02 * Rubidium knows only one nutter who ran a masterserver on his own server and had a reasonable amount of servers registered to it 17:49:43 <Eddi|zuHause> does his name start with an l? 17:49:45 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you? :p 17:49:54 <Terkhen> heh, there were alternative master servers? 17:50:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yeah, you need some kind of framework. That I also miss in PHP: an ORM 17:50:10 <TrueBrain> I loved that about django (and also about Pylons, SQLAlchemy etc) 17:50:16 <Thorn_> Eddi|zuHause: It comes by definition of openttd at a lan party. 17:50:25 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: wins the Amazon cookie! 17:50:36 <TrueBrain> you also cheated :D 17:51:18 <TrueBrain> still more servers than clients 17:51:21 <TrueBrain> guess some things never change 17:51:42 <TrueBrain> no more 0.4.8 servers :p 17:51:44 <TrueBrain> although a 0.6.3 server 17:51:49 <TrueBrain> euh, 0.6.2 17:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably not going to change. the real question is: did the number of clients increase? 17:51:56 <Rubidium> oldstable! 17:52:09 <TrueBrain> we don't have those statistics, sadly enough 17:52:13 <TrueBrain> that is why I love the logging :) 17:52:34 <Zuu> Perhaps someone shall make the code changes so that you can run a client that seeks up servers, joins and run a random/selected AI. 17:52:41 <Zuu> Then, we could get up the client count :-) 17:52:55 <TrueBrain> Zuu: you mean those 5 lines of code? :p 17:52:56 <Zuu> At least until the server-people do the same thing. 17:52:59 <planetmaker> [19:40] Rubidium true, though then the "download" stats per newgrf aren't live anymore <-- via some cronjob they could be somewhat live. Like daily, 6hour-ly or so. That's enough 17:53:44 <Zuu> TrueBrain: Would also need some lines of code to automate it so you never need to pick servers yourself and just leave it on for days :-) 17:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought the masterserver-updater already runs as cronjob and that was the entire point to move it there 17:54:08 * andythenorth reads bananas source to try and grok it 17:54:17 <TrueBrain> the only cronjob it runs is a cleanup of the database :p 17:54:20 <TrueBrain> to remove old servers 17:54:24 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: they're two dedicated daemons 17:54:25 <TrueBrain> (if that script still runs :D) 17:54:26 <andythenorth> hmm 17:54:35 <andythenorth> so the website and bananas are the same app? 17:54:36 <TrueBrain> grok? 17:54:41 <TrueBrain> both django, yes 17:54:44 <TrueBrain> 1 project, multiple apps 17:54:47 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok 17:55:06 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so I only need to read what's in /bananas 17:55:07 <andythenorth> ? 17:55:11 <TrueBrain> yes 17:55:14 <andythenorth> oh 17:55:18 <andythenorth> that's way simpler :P 17:55:20 <TrueBrain> although it heavily depends on django and the hacks we made for it in / :D 17:55:32 <TrueBrain> yeah, bananas is not that big 17:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of cronjobs: is there a way to tell my crontab to treat a specific line as utc when my system is actually in ce(s)t? 17:56:23 <andythenorth> is bananas one monolithic thing? I.e. does it handle admin interface + API for openttd? 17:56:32 <Rubidium> and... if possible, does the reverse work as well? 17:56:48 <Rubidium> andythenorth: API for OpenTTD is a separate daemon 17:57:18 <Rubidium> to be found in ^/extra/masterserver_updater 17:57:29 <andythenorth> Rubidium: so it reads the mysql tables? 17:57:38 <Rubidium> yes 17:57:48 <andythenorth> is there any other caching etc? or I should read the code? 17:58:15 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 17:58:48 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it has no caching whatsoever 17:58:55 <Rubidium> (the daemon that is) 17:59:47 <Rubidium> there is some caching-ish related code, though that's related to the binaries on the webserver as those are only mirrored out occasionally 18:00:10 <Rubidium> (after each binary build that ends up on binaries.openttd.org) 18:00:53 <TrueBrain> we wrote too complex systems :D 18:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause> bah... i got this thor thingy (syfy production, not the movie), but it's totally stupid 18:07:53 <andythenorth> why? 18:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> if A-Movies are high budget ones, B-Movies are low budget ones, C-Movies are zero-budget knockoffs and D-Movies are pornos, then this is an E-Movie. 18:09:18 <andythenorth> hmm 18:09:18 <SpComb> they pay you to watch it? 18:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i should sue them for compensation ;) 18:11:17 <Eddi|zuHause> lost time and bandwidth :p 18:13:05 *** ar3k [~ident@ebk5.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: âI-n-v-i-s-i-o-nâ 3.2 (July '10)] 18:19:53 *** ar3k [~ident@ebk5.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 18:19:55 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw 18:25:16 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest3319 18:25:16 *** Guest3319 [~Andy@87.112.99.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 18:26:11 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest3320 18:26:11 *** Guest3320 [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 18:26:57 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffd22.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:31:53 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-73.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 18:31:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:55 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 18:36:41 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-106-189.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 18:39:38 *** ZirconiumX [561b9caa@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:39:54 <ZirconiumX> hello all 18:43:01 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-62-223.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:43:17 <Amis> Hmmm 18:43:29 <Amis> Is it possible that sometimes prospecting indusrty fails? 18:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is intended 18:45:17 <Amis> :/ 18:45:27 <Amis> Yaay for throwing out 4 million euros x.x 18:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> not every time you tell people "go find oil" they actually find any 18:46:12 <Ammler> but the chance to find is quite high in openttd 18:47:04 <Amis> Not if you are playing with islands 18:51:55 <Ammler> well, you can change the setting and fund those 18:52:38 <Alberth> oilrigs should work quite well with islands :) 18:52:54 <Ammler> :-) 18:57:26 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:12 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:58:39 *** Adambean` [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 19:01:41 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 19:14:43 <planetmaker> Rubidium: the master server doesn't know these 12 NewGRFs: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/247/ 19:15:27 <planetmaker> provided my grep, cut and sed orgy didn't fail anywhere 19:15:43 <Rubidium> uk waypoints exists 19:16:16 <Rubidium> ffffffff seems like a bogus grf of some sorts 19:16:34 *** ZirconiumX [561b9caa@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 19:16:40 <planetmaker> by name yes. The grfID there is bogus. Only 7 characters. That's why 19:16:56 <planetmaker> cutting that out and the FFFFFFFF leaves 9 19:17:24 <Rubidium> no, the uk waypoints one is 8 long and matches perfectly 19:17:34 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:49 <Rubidium> the grfid is the one above the name, not below it 19:18:38 <Rubidium> how many entries are in grfcrawler? 19:18:44 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22534 /trunk/src/ai/ (ai_config.cpp ai_config.hpp ai_core.cpp): -Fix [FS#4631] (r21250): doing rescan_ai in a game with running AIs caused a crash 19:19:18 <planetmaker> right. I copied the wrong lines when grepping for the 7-thing entry. There are 248 entries which have a somewhat reasonable grfID 19:19:42 <Rubidium> somewhat reasonable? 19:19:58 <planetmaker> two which are not that format, DW xy, which is one of the DWE things, OG+4 is one of mine and 34 is no grfID 19:20:02 <Rubidium> you mean the rest is non-hexian garbage 19:20:05 <planetmaker> and empty is no grfID either 19:20:06 <planetmaker> yes 19:20:38 <Rubidium> @calc 10/248 19:20:38 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 0.0403225806452 19:20:45 <Rubidium> @calc 10/248*100 19:20:45 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 4.03225806452 19:21:11 <planetmaker> the total number of entries is slightly above 300, including those w/o grfID. Which are quite a few 19:21:16 <Rubidium> so 4% chance of a NewGRF from grfcrawler not being known by the server 19:21:40 <planetmaker> somewhat, yes 19:21:49 <planetmaker> which is as good as 100% :-P 19:22:42 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:22:51 <Rubidium> @calc 10/800 19:22:51 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 0.0125 19:23:20 *** snorre [~snorre@c6529BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:23:22 <Rubidium> and a 1.25% chance of a NewGRF not being known in general 19:23:30 <Rubidium> by the server 19:24:08 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:25:12 <Rubidium> although... 19:25:21 <Rubidium> you might want to consider the first 4 nibbles 19:25:45 <planetmaker> as authorID? 19:25:49 <Rubidium> yep 19:25:58 <Rubidium> 293 unique ones in the master server's list 19:26:21 <Rubidium> so with those added ~300 19:26:47 <Rubidium> which means 0.5% of the available author ids has been used 19:26:56 <planetmaker> :-) 19:27:40 <planetmaker> He, indeed even I used mine once 19:28:30 <planetmaker> but for most... OG+ ;-) 19:28:32 *** Bjarte [bjarte@playing.OpenTTD.no] has joined #openttd 19:28:38 <planetmaker> which hardly is an author 19:28:48 <planetmaker> *single 19:32:47 <frosch123> wow, the logs of this channel have not been so interesting for long :) 19:33:01 <frosch123> what's the "DBSextXL Extension"? :p 19:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue... 19:36:52 <frosch123> it's also amazing how many grfs are on the list, which were already deprecated before ottd existed :o 19:37:26 <Rubidium> I guess they're on the frontpage of ttdpatch or something ;) 19:40:05 <planetmaker> :-D 19:41:18 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the one that says "TTDPatch 2.0 rev 1 Released"? :p 19:41:35 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-217-146.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:42:19 <frosch123> Rubidium: even the ttdp front page has only dbset 0.5 19:42:50 <Yexo> 0.5? not even 0.8? 19:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it has both 19:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> 0.5 and 0.82 19:43:29 <frosch123> the list contains a dbset 0.3 and even a dbset without version number 19:43:30 <Eddi|zuHause> because 0.82 is not 2.0 compatible, only 2.5-beta 19:43:53 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 19:46:37 <Rubidium> see... that's the reason dbsetxl isn't on bananas... 19:47:09 <Rubidium> the "standards" platform doesn't have a stable release yet 19:59:41 *** joho [~joho@c-6204e155.132-7-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 20:01:14 <andythenorth> hmm 20:01:35 * andythenorth wonders about spec for bananas v2 20:02:30 <Terkhen> IIRC LordAro was working on readme display ingame, I guess you should make sure that the readme files follow some common rules 20:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only one who thinks "andy's spec" is an oxymoron? :p 20:03:00 <andythenorth> eh? 20:03:03 <Alberth> Terkhen: /is/ working on it, afaik :) 20:03:18 <Terkhen> cool :) 20:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i meant if you take the FIRS cargo spec as example :p 20:04:58 <andythenorth> ah 20:05:13 <andythenorth> in that case we apply 'the code *is* the spec' :D 20:06:41 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d82050d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:08:09 <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=949634#p949634 <- i like the "i cannot use the bug tracker ..." - "please use the bug tracker" 20:10:23 <planetmaker> :-D Yes, I'm guilty 20:10:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i found that odd as well :p 20:11:10 <andythenorth> hmm 20:11:15 <andythenorth> bananas is not much code 20:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what he said 20:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> err... 20:11:50 <andythenorth> but presumably depends on account function for ottd website 20:12:39 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how is authentication handled for openttd? Is it per-domain? 20:15:17 <Rubidium> there's a ldap server 20:16:28 <andythenorth> a better question might be: would a rewrite of bananas have to also handle authentication? Or is that handed elsewhere? 20:16:52 <frosch123> the authentication is the same as for webtranslator 20:17:07 <frosch123> you only need to login once, don't you? 20:17:29 <TWerkhoven> ello 20:18:04 * andythenorth is trying to figure out how accounts would be shared or use groups, as requested on FS 20:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a many-to-many relation between grf-id and author-accounts 20:19:23 <andythenorth> probably 20:19:34 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:20:06 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 20:21:47 <andythenorth> but it gets complicated 20:22:15 <andythenorth> if there are two user roles then permissions have to be checked in more depth 20:22:20 <andythenorth> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2795 20:24:26 <Rubidium> do we want two user roles? 20:24:34 *** Adambean` [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 20:30:28 <andythenorth> I would hope not 20:30:39 <andythenorth> I am reading the feature requests :P 20:30:45 <andythenorth> user roles slows everything down 20:30:53 <andythenorth> development-wise 20:31:13 <andythenorth> means fine-grained acls are needed 20:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "Austria better team, Germany wins 2:1, Germans shoot all goals" ... something is wrong :p 20:32:57 <andythenorth> feature requests for bananas? 20:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, a bananas-grfcrawler-hybrid is needed 20:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. categories, searchable website, ... 20:40:52 <andythenorth> I think exactly that 20:40:53 <Terkhen> yup 20:40:57 <V453000> good point 20:41:30 <andythenorth> grf categories mostly map to types in nfo spec? 20:41:39 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.84.20] has joined #openttd 20:41:40 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22535 /trunk/src/table/sprites.h: -Cleanup: Remove uneeded constants, update and unify some comments relating to sprite numbers 20:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, roughly 20:41:55 <Terkhen> I think so: landscape, industries, trains, road vehicles, rail types 20:42:03 <andythenorth> ships 20:42:09 <planetmaker> aircraft 20:42:11 <Terkhen> also the current ones; heightmaps, scenarios, AIs, AI libraries 20:42:12 <planetmaker> base costs 20:42:25 <planetmaker> misc ;-) 20:42:32 <planetmaker> base sets 20:42:43 <andythenorth> in the FS there is discussion about dependencies 20:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicles (road, rail, plane, ship), infrastructure (road, rail, stations, airports), landscape (terrain, objects) 20:42:55 <andythenorth> dependencies scare me 20:43:02 <frosch123> and "monolithical" for stuff containing more than one thing 20:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> AIs already have dependencies 20:43:18 <andythenorth> frosch123: I should split HEQS?? :P 20:43:43 <TWerkhoven> nah, just have grf's listed in any category that applies 20:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i only ever used the trams of HEQS 20:43:53 <TWerkhoven> so if a grf has rv's and trains, list them in both 20:44:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: i found an option to disable some weird trains 20:44:09 <frosch123> :p 20:44:15 <andythenorth> ho 20:44:25 <Terkhen> I use the HEQS trams a lot :P 20:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: oh, and the Gmund Mog (both versions) :) 20:44:47 <andythenorth> dependencies... 20:44:50 <Terkhen> I have never used the rail Gmund Mog though 20:45:38 <andythenorth> dependencies scare me :P 20:45:47 <andythenorth> how does / would openttd work with them? 20:45:58 <andythenorth> does it fetch all deps? 20:46:35 <Rubidium> yep 20:47:24 <andythenorth> is that already handled? 20:47:30 <Terkhen> yes 20:47:35 <andythenorth> ok 20:48:19 <andythenorth> is it handled for AI only, or in general? 20:50:41 <Yexo> in general 20:50:44 <Terkhen> I have seen dependencies only in AIs, but I guess they are handled in general 20:50:53 <andythenorth> does that extend to newgrf window? 20:50:54 <Yexo> scenario's can have dependencies on grfs 20:50:59 <andythenorth> i.e. if foo.grf depends on bar.grf 20:51:02 <Yexo> no, just the online content window 20:51:05 <andythenorth> ok 20:51:17 <andythenorth> and there's no way for user to know about deps in game? 20:51:25 <Yexo> no 20:51:27 <andythenorth> apart from they get downloaded by content service 20:51:39 <Yexo> that is not something the content service should handle 20:51:52 <frosch123> there is some av8 extension set that pulls av8 20:51:53 <Yexo> for scenarios the user can see the grfs that are needed in the load dialog 20:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the grf can still use action B to tell the user 20:52:07 <Yexo> NewGRFs can disable themself if their dependency is not loaded 20:52:11 <andythenorth> so it's responsibility of newgrf? - fine by me 20:52:28 <Yexo> AIs will most likely just fail to compile/start if an AI library they need is not available 20:52:57 <Yexo> andythenorth: at runtime yes, but the content server needs to make sure that the dependencies are downloaded 20:53:08 <andythenorth> ok 20:57:42 * andythenorth wonders what's actually wrong with bananas code 21:00:39 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:59 <josepr83> %ithe content server needs to make sure that the dependencies are downloaded%i 21:01:12 <josepr83> is that hard to implement? 21:01:55 <planetmaker> it is implemented... 21:04:01 <josepr83> okay. So, when you download the grf/scens etc. via content download system, their deps will actually get downloaded, or just prompt the user? 21:04:18 <Yexo> try to select the av8 addon in the online content window 21:04:24 <Yexo> av8 will also get selected automatically 21:04:30 <Terkhen> josepr83: it is implemented, try it with some AI that uses libraries or that av8 addon :P 21:04:33 <Yexo> same happens if you select any AI that uses libraries 21:04:45 *** fjb is now known as Guest3328 21:04:47 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFEFF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> something that is bad with ingame bananas handling: after updating a grf, i have to manually edit all presets, because those are set by filename, which is different, since it contains the version 21:06:40 *** Guest3328 [~frank@p5DDFF2EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:06:41 <josepr83> So, preset handling should be done by the grf name string inside the file, rather than filename? 21:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> or after download finished, presets should automatically be updated 21:08:46 <josepr83> Or there should be an update presets option, so that the user can decide when to update. 21:08:55 * andythenorth wonders if rewriting bananas from scratch is tmwftlb 21:09:13 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: what's so bad about the existing codebase? 21:09:21 <andythenorth> when I read it, I see nothing horrible 21:10:13 <TrueBrain> setting up the site won't be .. easy :) (so development is hard) This is the general problem with OpenTTD website atm 21:10:25 <TrueBrain> for the rest, the database design assumed an approach which is invalid 21:10:32 <TrueBrain> so it needs redesign, or at least a huge tuning 21:10:40 <andythenorth> ok 21:10:49 <andythenorth> so the issue isn't the views? 21:10:50 <TrueBrain> the code that handles file uploading fails a lot 21:11:05 <andythenorth> it has a *lot* of if-else :P 21:11:10 <TrueBrain> yes 21:11:12 <TrueBrain> completely unreadable 21:11:17 <TrueBrain> needs refactoring 21:12:15 <andythenorth> is it just un-pretty? Or actually flakey? 21:12:22 <TrueBrain> it makes mistakes 21:12:25 <TrueBrain> untracable mistakes :p 21:14:43 * andythenorth doesn't know what would be best 21:14:53 <andythenorth> - leave bananas alone - tmwftlb 21:15:05 <andythenorth> - rebuild 1:1 in new framework (not django) 21:15:15 <andythenorth> - rebuild 1:1 in django, but cleaner 21:15:27 <andythenorth> - rebuild entirely with redesigned features etc 21:15:32 <andythenorth> the last option is worst :P 21:18:45 <TrueBrain> I think second is best for OpenTTD as a whole 21:19:07 <andythenorth> so initially keep identical feature set, GUI etc 21:19:12 <andythenorth> but reimplement 21:19:13 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 21:19:43 * andythenorth wonders if wordpress really would be best way to do it 21:19:50 <TrueBrain> NO 21:19:56 <andythenorth> why? 21:20:08 <andythenorth> I am no wordpress fan, but it has achieved WIN 21:20:14 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.84.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:20:17 <TrueBrain> its asking for tons of exploits 21:20:46 <andythenorth> apparently WP 3 has solved that 21:20:56 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.82.172] has joined #openttd 21:21:07 * andythenorth dislikes WP for numerous minor reasons 21:21:16 <TrueBrain> they have 'solved' all exploits? 21:21:18 <TrueBrain> lol :) 21:21:29 <andythenorth> it has a massive developer base 21:21:33 <andythenorth> working on it all the time 21:21:37 <andythenorth> to add new exploits :P 21:21:42 <TrueBrain> and you also need to update so frequently :p 21:21:46 <TrueBrain> so no, I personally don't like that :) 21:22:04 <andythenorth> hmm 21:22:30 <andythenorth> there is no other common framework apart from Drupal 21:22:34 <andythenorth> how about Drupal? 21:22:48 <andythenorth> common = many people who can hack at it 21:23:26 <andythenorth> it would mean finding someone who can code drupal :P 21:24:36 <frosch123> "django" is still the nicest name of the stuff you mentioned 21:25:02 * andythenorth wants to do it with pyramid 21:25:04 <andythenorth> but not alone 21:26:09 <andythenorth> http://docs.pylonsproject.org/faq/pyramid.html#why-is-pyramid-any-different-than-the-hundred-other-python-web-frameworks 21:27:24 <josepr83> Itâs small, documented, tested, extensible, fast, and friendly. 21:27:35 <josepr83> That means a LOT 21:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> do we play buzzword-bingo? 21:28:07 <andythenorth> we could 21:28:13 <andythenorth> if you have a bingo car 21:28:14 <andythenorth> d 21:28:29 <planetmaker> with buzzwords? always at hand 21:28:42 <planetmaker> much more fun in meetings though in the form of bullshit bingo 21:29:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i had one for election-day-bingo once 21:29:31 <planetmaker> I spent some lectures with creating such bingo cards :-P 21:30:08 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: would you recommend changing the mysql schema as well? 21:30:14 <andythenorth> or could that be left untouched? 21:30:22 <TrueBrain> I think you have to 21:30:26 <TrueBrain> to work with a few new requirements 21:30:50 <andythenorth> I would ignore new requirements initially 21:30:58 *** snorre [~snorre@c6529BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #openttd 21:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> key requirement for a replacement framework: easy setup of a testing system 21:32:07 <andythenorth> testing what? 21:32:16 <andythenorth> testing the framework? or a dev environment? 21:32:33 <josepr83> Use the framework to test the framework? 21:32:39 <Yexo> <andythenorth> I would ignore new requirements initially <- that means you're going to write a new system that fails for exactly the same reasons the current system fails 21:32:50 <Yexo> it would not be designed for everything is has to handle 21:33:11 <andythenorth> Yexo: same argument could be said about FIRS port to nml :P 21:33:42 <andythenorth> changing framework + features is a headache 21:33:52 <josepr83> andythenorth: planetmaker is still here :P 21:34:07 <andythenorth> ? 21:34:07 <Eddi|zuHause> dev environment is where you write your code, test environment is where you run it 21:34:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so a staging server? 21:34:30 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you call it 21:34:37 <Yexo> andythenorth: the firs port from nfo to nml was not because nml supports something nfo does not 21:34:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think we mean same thing 21:34:45 <Yexo> it's to make maintenance in the future easier 21:34:56 <andythenorth> hmm 21:35:01 <andythenorth> this is why I am confused 21:35:04 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.82.172] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830]] 21:35:07 <andythenorth> what is the problem with bananas? 21:35:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something where i can type "make" and then i have the page on localhost:80 21:35:10 <Yexo> making the maintenance of bananas easier is not very useful as long as it doesn't support everything it has to 21:35:42 <andythenorth> hmm 21:35:49 <andythenorth> in that case we're stuck yes / no? 21:35:59 <Yexo> andythenorth: it needs a more extensive web interface (something more like grfcrawler has), it needs a better way to specify dependencies 21:36:13 <Yexo> you need to be able to select a dependency on an older version 21:36:22 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: told you the list would grow fast :D 21:36:26 <andythenorth> sounds like a spec is needed :) 21:36:31 <andythenorth> I see the issue here 21:36:47 <andythenorth> can't extend current codebase because it's hairy 21:36:54 <planetmaker> it needs proper user management as well 21:36:58 <planetmaker> or rather rights 21:37:02 <andythenorth> can't move to a new codebase 21:37:15 <planetmaker> one to multi linking of project to user and vice versa 21:37:34 <Yexo> andythenorth: it can be moved to a new codebase, but that should only be done if the new codebase has advantages over the current one 21:37:45 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so you have to start somewhere; a rewrite of current stuff might be an approach :) 21:38:17 <Yexo> moving from the current implementation to one based on pyramid is useless if that pyramid implementation has the same limitations as the current one 21:38:28 <andythenorth> why? 21:38:38 <andythenorth> it seems to be an unavoidable step in a migration 21:38:44 <Yexo> because every move has the potential to introduce more bugs 21:38:58 <andythenorth> which is why features shouldn't change 21:39:04 <Yexo> it could be a first step to code that, but only if afterwards that codebase is extended to implement some new features 21:39:12 <andythenorth> QA on something that is 1:1 same is just hard 21:39:17 <Yexo> only when that's done it would be useful to switch the live version imo 21:39:33 <andythenorth> QA on something that also adds features is insanely hard 21:39:39 <Terkhen> good night 21:39:46 <andythenorth> bye Terkhen 21:39:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you wouldn't get to just call make 21:40:07 <andythenorth> but maybe three lines 21:40:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i meant apart from installing the dependencies 21:41:06 <andythenorth> you shouldn't have to do much of that hopefully :P 21:41:26 <andythenorth> although I don't know if mysql is easy to provide 21:43:35 <andythenorth> starting the server would be something like: ./bin/paster serve etc/paste.ini 21:44:41 * andythenorth will sleep on it and see what happens 21:45:03 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:48:27 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.82.172] has joined #openttd 21:58:39 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-73.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:00:42 <Wolf01> 'night 22:00:47 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-173-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:01:32 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.82.172] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830]] 22:06:09 <__ln__> does someone remember seeing this Deutsche Bahn commercial on tv: http://suomi.freehosting.net/urjala-bilder/finnland.jpg 22:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember all commercial spots of the last 20 years 22:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the pictures do ring some bells, but i'm not really sure 22:09:10 *** Amis [~Amis@5400C3CB.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Quit: *pop*] 22:09:53 <__ln__> it was in finnish, subtitled in german... which might be a bit exceptional on german tv, i suppose. 22:12:34 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.82.172] has joined #openttd 22:12:35 <__ln__> anyway, i've been trying to locate that ad on youtube and other sources, but unsuccessfully 22:16:37 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC2576.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 22:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> do you have a timeframe? 22:25:28 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:39 <__ln__> something like 1992..1995 22:25:47 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 22:25:51 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.82.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:27:21 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.80.233] has joined #openttd 22:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: is that it? i can't seem to open it, though. http://suomi.freehosting.net/bahn.ram 22:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> description: http://suomi.freehosting.net/#Anchor-2.2.2-23522 22:29:35 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.80.233] has left #openttd [] 22:30:35 <__ln__> yeah, that's it, but the .ram merely points to some other pnm:// url and address, which has probably been down for years. 22:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joxmfpl7nsE <- ? 22:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> just a matter of the right search words ;) 22:32:14 <__ln__> perfect, that's the one, thank you 22:33:08 <__ln__> i apparently failed with my search words 22:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't seem to be the complete clip, though 22:37:45 <__ln__> yes, it starts in the middle of a sentence, and as far as i remember there was a second part where the guy says "i just remembered that .... blabla" and adds something 22:44:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't find another version, though 22:44:53 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 22:45:07 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffd22.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:05 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 23:05:28 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: TTW - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 23:07:15 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:13:48 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 23:19:57 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-003-136.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... 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